WEBVTT - Belonging — Talina Zar E3 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.400 In my hands. I hold a slim paperback novel titled 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:10.880 The Tarnsman of Gore, published in nineteen sixty six by 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:14.640 author John Norman. It's the first in a sprawling series 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.319 of fantasy novels set on a counter Earth. Here's the 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:20.640 blurb from the back cover. 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:22.360 Earth could never. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.639 Know of Gore, the world always on the opposite side 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:29.680 of the sun. But Gore somehow knew about Earth. As 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.519 Tarro Cabot soon discovered. Taken my force to that savage world, 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:39.040 Cabot was compelled to become a Tarnsman, a warrior trained 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.519 to master the great warbirds of Coroba. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.320 This book, it's not the type of fiction I typically 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:50.880 gravitate towards. It's giving pulpy romance. Novel meets planetary sci 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:56.000 fi vibes. On the cover is a suggestive illustration. A shirtless, 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.960 muscular man brandishes a sharp weapon, his stance exaus dominance. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:06.000 Below him, a topless woman kneels, her head bowed in submission, 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.720 her hands bound behind her back. Looming in the distance, 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:14.759 A warrior rides a massive, savage looking bird. I read 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.959 the first book for research purposes, but honestly, it was 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.679 a struggle listening as an audiobook on double speed helped. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.480 Among the trees on the clover, I threw her to 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.160 my feet. She tried frantically to readjust the folds of 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.400 her veil, but with both hands I tore it fully away, 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.280 and she lay at my feet. As it is said 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:33.720 on Gore face stripped. 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:39.840 The Gore series spelled Gor starts off pretty tame, following 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.240 a British professor abducted from Earth and forced into the 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.199 life of a warrior on Gore. Gores differ from Earth 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.640 in a lot of ways. Fantastical creatures, homestones that hold 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:56.160 mythical powers for different clans, that sort of thing. Plus 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:03.160 there's your typical array of human activities plundering, nomadic wandering, kidnapping, wars. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.800 But the most notable thing is that men on Gore 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.919 can own female slaves. They're called kajira. They wear collars 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:16.639 and have no rights. These women are considered akin to pets, 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.559 and this arrangement is mutually beneficial according to the philosophy 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.720 described at length by author John Norman, as men are 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:33.120 naturally dominant and women are inherently submissive. Here's a typical passage, 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.919 the likes of which is repeated ad nauseum throughout the series. 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.440 Most Gorrian slave girls, once they make the adjustment to 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:47.440 the caller, are radiantly happy. Society, particularly it's males, rejoices 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.000 in their existence. The male fulfills himself and the mastery, 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.360 and the girl, sheltered and cared for and nurtured and 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.840 commonly loved, even madly, receives the strict, uncompromising domination without 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.720 which she could not attain her full woman in society 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:07.240 approves of their status, and they themselves desire it. No 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.520 wonder they walk with grace and beauty, No wonder they 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.560 walk proudly. They have been found women enough and feminine enough, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:19.080 and exciting enough, and desirable enough and beautiful enough to 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:20.720 be put in the collar. 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.639 So yeah. Unsurprisingly, the books were divisive. Released during the 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.560 nineteen sixties and seventies, as women fought for equality and 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:37.840 pushed back against patriarchy, there was public backlash. Marion Zimmer Bradley, 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.880 a sci fi author of the popular Miss of Avalon, 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.080 shared a publisher with Norman and wrote a book in 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.440 protest called Warrior Women, in which a female slave fights 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.760 back against her enslavement. Yet the Gore books resonated with 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:57.560 enough readers to sustain Norman's prolific output, roughly one book 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.360 a year for over two decades. In nineteen eighty seven, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.160 the series inspired a Hollywood movie, Just Remembered a Woefully 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:06.360 and was treating like. 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.240 A sage to Morels. 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.160 It looks campy and was widely panned by critics at 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:16.120 the time, but despite dismal box office numbers and reviews, 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.800 a second Gore movie was released a year later. I 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.640 can't even find box office numbers for that one, so 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:24.680 it doesn't seem like it had much of an audience. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.200 And it was around this time in the late nineteen 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.160 eighties that Norman was dropped by his publisher, a decision 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:35.760 he has said was due to pressure from feminist editors. 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.000 But he didn't stop writing. In the early two thousands, 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.440 Norman took his work online, publishing more than a dozen 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:48.279 ebooks since The advent of the internet also fostered a 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:53.599 devoted subculture of fans. Gore obsessives gathered in chat rooms 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:58.560 to debate everything from traditional sword sizes to slave garments 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:03.080 to how best to integrate the social structure of the 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.760 books into one's life. In other words, how to be 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:13.080 a Gorrian not pretend, not role playing on second life, 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.279 but how to be a master or a slave in 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:24.320 the home, in the bedroom in life period. Today, a 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:30.359 niche community of self identified Gorrians still exists. They practice 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:36.000 master slave relationships modeled on the books keeping Norman's controversial 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:42.280 vision alive. And that world, well, that was Tellina's. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.000 Gore was a world of slaves and beautiful women, of 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:50.240 human domination by the alien secret priest kings. And it 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.880 was also the world of Telena, the tempestuous daughter of 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.520 Gore's great warlord. She waited for the man who could 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.000 subdue her, the man who would be her master. 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:06.159 From iHeart Podcasts, I'm Melissa Nelson, and this is what 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:07.720 happened to Teleina. 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:33.719 Zar when Tom passed. I mean, she was obviously devastated. 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.920 Her world had kind of revolved around him. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.040 They had one of those bombs that you know, everybody 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:40.920 could aspire to. 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:42.960 Little town have their skeleton. 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:44.840 I mean, they're not with that. 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:47.760 I had done some internet digging and then that popped 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.760 up with the John Norman Gorrian novels, and I was like, 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:52.320 what the hell are you people into? 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:53.920 What is going on here? 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:02.080 Episode three Belonging. I had hoped to speak to John Norman, 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.520 author of the Gore series, to learn more about his 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.440 work and the subculture inspired by the books, but his 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:13.400 current publisher told me that Norman quote does not want 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.480 to be interviewed if the slant is going to be 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:21.480 another judgmental feminist attack. He added that Norman is also 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.520 over ninety years old, and like many that age can 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:30.720 be a little cranky. So instead I talked to an expert, who, 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.800 despite being a feminist, was surprisingly non judgmental. 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.520 I don't think that when John Norman published this he 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.160 ever imagined that people would try to live like that. 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:46.400 Nobody writes a novel thinking now, I'm hopeful that everybody 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.760 will read my novel and live exactly like that. Would 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:55.800 anybody like to live through? Anna Karinina, I mean, you know, 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.440 fiction is an escape. 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.920 This is doctor Gloria Breem, a sex therapist and self 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:03.040 described kinster. 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.280 It could have been the pure product of his imagination 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:10.520 and his sexual fantasies, and not a world d would 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:15.000 even choose to live in himself, but a fantasy world. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.400 And we're all permitted to fantasy world. I mean, I 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.760 actually read a Gore book when I was probably twenty. 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.120 I was bored one night and I picked it up 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.680 and I thought, oh, this is really interesting. The vibe 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.840 of the cover was kind of sexy. It was a 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.760 guy standing looking all masterly and you know, maybe a 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.280 woman at his feet. It kind of got across its 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:42.319 message to readers. I wasn't even aware I was kinky. 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.760 It was just kind of interesting. It was a wonderful fantasy. 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.200 And he wrote a ton in the series because the 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.640 book sold a lot, probably to a lot of kinky people. 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.800 Gloria has spent her career as a sex educator trying 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:02.240 to reduce the stigma around BDSI, an acronym you've probably 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:07.959 heard thrown around that stands for bondage, dominance, sadism, and masochism. 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:12.280 Certainly since the beginning of recorded history, you can find 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:17.400 Roman wool paintings of people being whipped and having ecstasies, 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:22.800 and lots of art from the Roman era on that 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:27.120 tell us that people have always been interested in extreme 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:32.360 or non conventional, non reproductive sex. Looking at it from 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:37.040 the outside, it's definitely weird and bizarre, but looking at 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:41.080 it from the inside, we all feel like this is 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.240 where the love is, you know, the real, raw, primal love. 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.160 We're not doing it to be emotionally hurt. We're doing 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.479 it really in outs of finding joy and ecstasy. 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.520 Though the Gore books were titillating, Gloria never really connected 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.160 with them. The strict gender roles depicted in the series 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:09.800 felt anachronistic. On Gore, men were in charge, women followed, listened, 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.640 and served, often while scantily clad, which is. 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.200 Why I didn't like the book and I didn't care 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.640 for the series, because I'm feminist to the core, and 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.800 I was from the age of fourteen, and I actually 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.679 was raised that way by my parents. 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.280 Gloria's introduction to Gore was brief didn't leave that much 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.520 of an impact, But later in life, when she immersed 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:37.120 herself in the BDSM community, she learned that some people 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.800 felt very connected to the books. 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.920 A few years later, when I finally did hook up 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:47.280 with the BDSM world, there were Golorians among us who 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.840 took various handles straight out of the novel. It was 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.960 more about obedience and women serving the will of their master. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.480 There's no way to know how many people in the 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.840 US or in the world call themselves Gorrian or try 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.120 to live according to the principles in the books. But 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.600 if you move in BDSM spaces, you may come across 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:11.680 them once in a while. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.520 I once met a Gourian couple where the guys started 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.440 to tell me, well, you know, all women were born 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.040 to be submissive, And that was like the end of 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:24.480 the conversation right there, you know, because really, you know, 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:31.040 there's no universal anything about male or female this world. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.240 It's been hard to pierce as an outsider reporter and 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:40.440 a woman. Gorrians are extremely protective of their lifestyle, knowing 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.959 that their choices are probably not accepted in the mainstream. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.200 Those who did talk to me shared fears of being 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:51.920 outed and losing their jobs or jeopardizing their families. In 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.080 order to better understand what it even is to be 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.640 a Gorrian, I spent six months lurking in the online 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.520 spaces where they hang out these days, Reddit and discord, 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.560 and listening in on these conversations. I was able to 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:11.800 glean some information. For example, there's a spectrum of Goreyan participation. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.800 On one end are those who keep it virtual where 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.840 they role play the master slave dynamic online. And on 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.000 the other end are people who live every day like this, 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:28.320 couples who enter into a contract. Sometimes we're in sometimes not, 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.760 where the woman submits to the man, relinquishing her rights 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:39.800 to choice, freedom agency. It sounds shocking, but for some 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.599 people it is very sexy and very satisfying. 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.600 I do believe that Gorrian's, just like other bdsmmers, are 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.600 very choosy and carefortable about who they give power to, 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.280 and they reserve power for their masters. If you have 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:02.080 two really good people who really are compatible, that's going 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.840 to be fun. But if you are with somebody who 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:14.760 is flawed, or has mental health issues, or is actually 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:23.120 really a troubled person, it could be quite dangerous. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.040 I've been a twenty four to seven slave owned by 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.400 Master Zarius since two thousand and four. One of my 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:42.040 friends that calls me a pragmatic hedonist. I'm totally down 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:42.280 with that. 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.079 I'm looking at a social media account that Teleina created. 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:50.200 In her bio, she describes herself and her husband Tom 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.720 aka Master Zarius. 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.720 We're a Gorrian family and belong to the Gray Eagle family. 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.440 Previous to being owned by Master Czarius, I was a 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.880 BDSM submissive to a variety of masters and mistresses. I've 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.480 been in the lifestyle since. 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.640 I was eighteen. This is a dramatization of some of 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.480 Telena's writing on fet life, a dating and social media 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.280 site for people interested in fetish and BDSM picture Facebook, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.640 but with dick pics and leather. If you're curious. It's 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.560 not safe for work unless your work is making a 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.000 podcast about all of this. I was able to see 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.720 Telena's profile simply by signing up for an account. As 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.960 far as I can tell, there was a time when 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.560 Telena was a prolific fet life user. She connected with 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.080 new friends, found events to attend, and shared a lot 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:45.960 of personal writing. Although fetlife is primarily a sexual form, 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.680 there's not much on her page about sex at all. 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.880 Most of what she shared was overwhelmingly wholesome. Little essays 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.360 focused on the banality of everyday life, and people would 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:02.040 respond with kind comments. This was clearly her chosen community, 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.200 where she felt safe to be herself. 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.360 I've spent too much of my life being so harsh 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.680 on myself. My house isn't as clean as my mother's. 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.040 My waistline isn't as small as someone else's, my hair 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.440 is too stringy, my taste buds aren't developed enough. 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:21.720 Whatever, Telena revealed a lot about her life, her insecurities, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:23.920 her ongoing weight less journey. 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.600 I tried on the cute pants first, and they fit 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:32.360 like they were made on me. And it happened. A 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.960 small smile curled the left side of my mouth, and 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.320 for the first time in many weeks, I was able 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.520 to see my entire body in the mirror, and I 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:43.640 liked what I saw. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.640 Her adventures in baking a short. 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.520 Time later, voila an excellent dessert, which the guys at 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.280 my office are enjoying right now as I type this. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.800 I cut the result into squares and stack them to 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.480 make a cute little strata. Everyone here thinks I'm an 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:01.400 excellent baker. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.240 Reading through these essays, I got a real feel for 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:10.480 Tellina's personality. She's spunky and adventurous. In one post, she 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.600 talks about skydiving with her niece, but she's also not 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.160 afraid to be vulnerable. 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.560 I started thinking about how so much of my life 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:25.040 has been work to find the balance between being tough 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.720 and being soft. I went a little overboard in the 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.840 toughness department, to the point where I had no soft 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.240 edges at all. On more than one occasion, I was 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.720 thrown out of bars for fighting. A little before I 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.120 turned thirty, I started getting tired of always having to 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:47.359 be so tough, so my pendulum swung. 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:47.600 The other way. 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.720 I became all soft all the time. When I took 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.520 off the exterior shell of toughness, my soft underbelly was 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.440 all that was left. I cried at the slightest provocation. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.920 My feelings were frequently injured, and I showed her poppy 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.760 dog eyes to my owner when he raised his voice 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:12.119 just a few decibels. Okay, So being tough all the 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.159 time was exhausting, and being weak all the time was 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:15.840 even worse. 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.040 Si Teleina wrote a lot about her relationship with her 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:25.199 husband Tom, who she refers to as Master Csaius or 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:26.119 just Master. 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.840 How well did I adapt to being property? Well, that 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.000 depends on whether you ask me or Master lol. 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.840 I'm not sure exactly how or when Teleina and Tom met, 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.879 except that they both served in the military, and by 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.280 two thousand and four they were living together in Indiana. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:53.000 Teleina was thirty eight, Tom forty six, and it's possible 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:57.040 that it was Tom who introduced her to Gore. According 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.159 to his own posts on fet life, he discovered of 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.000 books in his youth and they made a big impact 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.479 on him. Here's a dramatization of Tom's writing. 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.000 I began reading the Gore books in nineteen seventy nine. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.480 Within them, the philosophical tenets of a man being a 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.840 man and a woman being a woman rang true for me. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.480 There was a twenty five year gap between starting my 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:25.440 journey as a Gorrian mastering my first slave. I admit 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.960 that mastering my Teleina these past ten plus years has 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.679 been a very rewarding and insightful experience. 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.840 According to her profile, Telena had been in BDSM type 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.879 relationships since she was eighteen years old, but with Tom, 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:44.439 she moved into something different, a master slave relationship that 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.399 required her submission to him twenty four seven. 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.760 I was not used to not being in charge of 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:55.600 my time tasks, Destiny. It was an ugly adjustment that 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.400 ended up bringing depth and greater understanding in my relationship 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.119 with Master. Because we both wanted to be together in 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.119 our roles so badly, neither of us expected it to 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:07.280 be so hard. 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:12.159 They lived strictly according to Gorerian principles, which meant that 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.800 Tom was in charge of all decisions until Lena yielded 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.320 control absolutely to her husband. 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.399 I learned how to shut up. I know it sounds 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.440 simple and truly it is. However, the amount of will 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.720 power necessary to put this into practice is enormous. The 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.480 self control practiced by all the slaves who I esteem 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.480 is beyond imagining to most of those who don't serve. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:43.600 For most people, me included, the word slavery does not 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:48.119 have any positive connotations. Wars have been waged to abolish it. 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.280 Generations of people have worked to ensure no one endures 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:58.200 such a fate, and here is someone voluntarily living this way. Honestly, 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.679 I find it hard to wrap my head around. And 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:05.760 yet the way Telena described it, their relationship sounded more 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:07.520 nuanced than I had expected. 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.560 I see so many posts asking what is quote normal 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:19.160 for a master, mistress owner to do. This is my response. 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.040 Our real master gets up at six am on the 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.720 weekend to take the dogs out because his slave has 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.200 a migraine. Our real master waters the basil plants when 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.119 his slave is away, even if he doesn't like to 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.199 eat this stuff himself. Our real master goes for a 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.240 walk rather than taking his anger out on his slave. 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:41.320 Our real master understands that his slave won't always perform perfectly. 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.080 While setting the atmosphere for perfection to happen. Our real 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:49.000 master punishes his slave when she does something wrong because 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.439 he loves her. A real master uses his hands to 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.359 hold and comfort a slave when she's overwhelmed with fear. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.440 These are all things that I believe a real master 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.320 should do, and the these are all things my master 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.399 does regularly. I'm a blessed girl. 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.840 Teleina freely shared the inner workings of her relationship with 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:14.520 the Gore community, and over time became an expert, someone 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:19.000 who guided others new to the lifestyle. I discovered from 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.840 digging through her old posts that at some point she 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.919 actually began formally teaching classes with Tom on how to 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:30.159 be in a dominant submissive relationship. Here's a description of 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:34.440 a class they taught in twenty thirteen called Formal Dinner Service, 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:38.600 where slaves were taught how to serve food while naked. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.600 Learn the science behind serving table covers, how to serve 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.960 formal table settings, napkin folding. Then go deeper into the 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:52.480 mindset behind formal service. Take some time to experience the 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.240 thrill of coordinated movements, feel the rush of performing a 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:00.399 job well. Acknowledge the place deep inside yourself where a 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:05.280 desire to serve naked lives. While you'll walk away with handouts, 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.600 the most valuable gift you'll receive is the knowledge that 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.840 setting and serving at a formal table is within your 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:16.040 immediate grasp. After the class, join us for a luscious 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.639 dinner where you can practice your skills, either as a 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:19.760 diner or a server. 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:24.879 Deep diving into the Gore series, the subculture that is 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.520 cropped up around it, and Telena's embrace of its principles, 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:33.360 I had so many questions, the most pressing being why 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.880 would someone so smart, self aware, and opinionated like Telena 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:42.320 want to engage in a dynamic like this. Don't get 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:44.760 me wrong, there's a part of me that understands the 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.240 allure of seeding control. There are plenty of days where 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.000 I feel so burned out that I don't want to 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.439 decide anything what to eat, or what to wear, or 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.840 even what show to put on to decompress. But as 0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:00.560 a woman, wife, and mom, equity in my head household 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:04.160 is really important to me. My partner and I deliberately 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.200 strive to share the mental and physical loads of life, 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:10.880 play acting these roles for kink and pleasure in the bedroom. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.040 I get that, But to live within this dynamic where 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:18.440 the male partner always has the final say. It goes 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:22.800 against every fiber of my being. Why would someone desire this? 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:29.240 For many people, it feels comforting to not have to 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.879 be in control all the time. There's this feeling of 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:39.199 glorious freedom actually in not having to make decisions anymore. 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:43.960 You've just become an instrument of somebody else's will, and 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:48.879 this is actually liberating because now, instead of being constantly 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.760 faced with all of these choices that maybe overwhelm you, 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:54.679 somebody else is going to make them for you, and 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:55.440 that feels good. 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:59.919 This is Julie Fennel, a sociologist and longtime member of 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:04.399 the BDSM community who studies gender and sexuality. She's the 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.280 author of Please Scream Quietly, a story of kink. 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.159 I guess the last thing is just providing pleasure and 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.360 happiness to another person, which is a very human thing 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.880 to enjoy doing that. You really get a lot out 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:24.359 of seeing your dominant feel pleasure and be happy and 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:25.800 knowing that that came from you. 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:28.840 Julie told me that people who choose to live as 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:33.480 submissives are oftentimes a healthy, well adjusted, and self confident, 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:37.520 making the choice out of free will. But she acknowledges 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:39.640 that's not the case for everyone. 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.240 I have data that suggests to me that a lot 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:45.600 of people are motivated by unhealthy things, which, unfortunately the 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:49.760 BDSM community is terrible actually having frank conversations about I 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:52.520 put the data in my book from twenty seventeen is 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:56.399 quite clear that submissives have lower self esteemed than dominance do. 0:24:56.960 --> 0:24:59.240 I think a lot of times people are motivated to 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.000 be submissive because they think they aren't good enough at 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:04.840 being a person, and so they want somebody else who 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:07.040 they think is better at being a person to help 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:08.159 them be a person. 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:12.359 There's a stereotype the people who are into BDSM must 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:15.520 have had bad experiences in their childhood that led them 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.399 down this path, and that BDSM is a way to 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:22.640 grapple with or relive those traumas. And maybe in some 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:27.000 cases that's true, but as Julie explained it, many others 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:29.720 just like the sensation of a whip on their skin 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:31.600 or being tied up with ropes. 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:33.960 I can take them for a walk. I like putting 0:25:34.000 --> 0:25:34.920 people on leashes. 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:39.040 It's fine, as she said, not everything has to be pathologized. 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:43.159 Julie pointed out that a big draw of BDSM is 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:46.879 the community aspect, finding others who don't judge you for 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:50.960 who you are. Beyond online spaces like fat life, it's 0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:54.800 not uncommon for BDSM ors to congregate in person, whether 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:58.600