1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: In my hands. I hold a slim paperback novel titled 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: The Tarnsman of Gore, published in nineteen sixty six by 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: author John Norman. It's the first in a sprawling series 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: of fantasy novels set on a counter Earth. Here's the 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: blurb from the back cover. 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: Earth could never. 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 3: Know of Gore, the world always on the opposite side 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 3: of the sun. But Gore somehow knew about Earth. As 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 3: Tarro Cabot soon discovered. Taken my force to that savage world, 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 3: Cabot was compelled to become a Tarnsman, a warrior trained 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 3: to master the great warbirds of Coroba. 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: This book, it's not the type of fiction I typically 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: gravitate towards. It's giving pulpy romance. Novel meets planetary sci 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: fi vibes. On the cover is a suggestive illustration. A shirtless, 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: muscular man brandishes a sharp weapon, his stance exaus dominance. 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: Below him, a topless woman kneels, her head bowed in submission, 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: her hands bound behind her back. Looming in the distance, 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: A warrior rides a massive, savage looking bird. I read 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: the first book for research purposes, but honestly, it was 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: a struggle listening as an audiobook on double speed helped. 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 3: Among the trees on the clover, I threw her to 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 3: my feet. She tried frantically to readjust the folds of 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 3: her veil, but with both hands I tore it fully away, 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 3: and she lay at my feet. As it is said 25 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 3: on Gore face stripped. 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: The Gore series spelled Gor starts off pretty tame, following 27 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: a British professor abducted from Earth and forced into the 28 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: life of a warrior on Gore. Gores differ from Earth 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Fantastical creatures, homestones that hold 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: mythical powers for different clans, that sort of thing. Plus 31 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: there's your typical array of human activities plundering, nomadic wandering, kidnapping, wars. 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: But the most notable thing is that men on Gore 33 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: can own female slaves. They're called kajira. They wear collars 34 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: and have no rights. These women are considered akin to pets, 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,559 Speaker 1: and this arrangement is mutually beneficial according to the philosophy 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: described at length by author John Norman, as men are 37 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: naturally dominant and women are inherently submissive. Here's a typical passage, 38 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: the likes of which is repeated ad nauseum throughout the series. 39 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 3: Most Gorrian slave girls, once they make the adjustment to 40 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: the caller, are radiantly happy. Society, particularly it's males, rejoices 41 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 3: in their existence. The male fulfills himself and the mastery, 42 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: and the girl, sheltered and cared for and nurtured and 43 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 3: commonly loved, even madly, receives the strict, uncompromising domination without 44 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 3: which she could not attain her full woman in society 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: approves of their status, and they themselves desire it. No 46 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 3: wonder they walk with grace and beauty, No wonder they 47 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: walk proudly. They have been found women enough and feminine enough, 48 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 3: and exciting enough, and desirable enough and beautiful enough to 49 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: be put in the collar. 50 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: So yeah. Unsurprisingly, the books were divisive. Released during the 51 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties and seventies, as women fought for equality and 52 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: pushed back against patriarchy, there was public backlash. Marion Zimmer Bradley, 53 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: a sci fi author of the popular Miss of Avalon, 54 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: shared a publisher with Norman and wrote a book in 55 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: protest called Warrior Women, in which a female slave fights 56 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: back against her enslavement. Yet the Gore books resonated with 57 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: enough readers to sustain Norman's prolific output, roughly one book 58 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: a year for over two decades. In nineteen eighty seven, 59 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: the series inspired a Hollywood movie, Just Remembered a Woefully 60 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: and was treating like. 61 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 4: A sage to Morels. 62 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: It looks campy and was widely panned by critics at 63 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: the time, but despite dismal box office numbers and reviews, 64 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: a second Gore movie was released a year later. I 65 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: can't even find box office numbers for that one, so 66 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like it had much of an audience. 67 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: And it was around this time in the late nineteen 68 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: eighties that Norman was dropped by his publisher, a decision 69 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: he has said was due to pressure from feminist editors. 70 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: But he didn't stop writing. In the early two thousands, 71 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: Norman took his work online, publishing more than a dozen 72 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: ebooks since The advent of the internet also fostered a 73 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: devoted subculture of fans. Gore obsessives gathered in chat rooms 74 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: to debate everything from traditional sword sizes to slave garments 75 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: to how best to integrate the social structure of the 76 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: books into one's life. In other words, how to be 77 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: a Gorrian not pretend, not role playing on second life, 78 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: but how to be a master or a slave in 79 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: the home, in the bedroom in life period. Today, a 80 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: niche community of self identified Gorrians still exists. They practice 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: master slave relationships modeled on the books keeping Norman's controversial 82 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: vision alive. And that world, well, that was Tellina's. 83 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 3: Gore was a world of slaves and beautiful women, of 84 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: human domination by the alien secret priest kings. And it 85 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: was also the world of Telena, the tempestuous daughter of 86 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 3: Gore's great warlord. She waited for the man who could 87 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 3: subdue her, the man who would be her master. 88 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: From iHeart Podcasts, I'm Melissa Nelson, and this is what 89 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: happened to Teleina. 90 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 5: Zar when Tom passed. I mean, she was obviously devastated. 91 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 5: Her world had kind of revolved around him. 92 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 6: They had one of those bombs that you know, everybody 93 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 6: could aspire to. 94 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: Little town have their skeleton. 95 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 5: I mean, they're not with that. 96 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 7: I had done some internet digging and then that popped 97 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 7: up with the John Norman Gorrian novels, and I was like, 98 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 7: what the hell are you people into? 99 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 4: What is going on here? 100 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: Episode three Belonging. I had hoped to speak to John Norman, 101 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: author of the Gore series, to learn more about his 102 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: work and the subculture inspired by the books, but his 103 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: current publisher told me that Norman quote does not want 104 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: to be interviewed if the slant is going to be 105 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: another judgmental feminist attack. He added that Norman is also 106 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: over ninety years old, and like many that age can 107 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: be a little cranky. So instead I talked to an expert, who, 108 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: despite being a feminist, was surprisingly non judgmental. 109 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 8: I don't think that when John Norman published this he 110 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 8: ever imagined that people would try to live like that. 111 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 8: Nobody writes a novel thinking now, I'm hopeful that everybody 112 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 8: will read my novel and live exactly like that. Would 113 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 8: anybody like to live through? Anna Karinina, I mean, you know, 114 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 8: fiction is an escape. 115 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: This is doctor Gloria Breem, a sex therapist and self 116 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: described kinster. 117 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 8: It could have been the pure product of his imagination 118 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 8: and his sexual fantasies, and not a world d would 119 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 8: even choose to live in himself, but a fantasy world. 120 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 8: And we're all permitted to fantasy world. I mean, I 121 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 8: actually read a Gore book when I was probably twenty. 122 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 8: I was bored one night and I picked it up 123 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 8: and I thought, oh, this is really interesting. The vibe 124 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 8: of the cover was kind of sexy. It was a 125 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 8: guy standing looking all masterly and you know, maybe a 126 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 8: woman at his feet. It kind of got across its 127 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 8: message to readers. I wasn't even aware I was kinky. 128 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 8: It was just kind of interesting. It was a wonderful fantasy. 129 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 8: And he wrote a ton in the series because the 130 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 8: book sold a lot, probably to a lot of kinky people. 131 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: Gloria has spent her career as a sex educator trying 132 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: to reduce the stigma around BDSI, an acronym you've probably 133 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: heard thrown around that stands for bondage, dominance, sadism, and masochism. 134 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 8: Certainly since the beginning of recorded history, you can find 135 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 8: Roman wool paintings of people being whipped and having ecstasies, 136 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 8: and lots of art from the Roman era on that 137 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 8: tell us that people have always been interested in extreme 138 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 8: or non conventional, non reproductive sex. Looking at it from 139 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 8: the outside, it's definitely weird and bizarre, but looking at 140 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 8: it from the inside, we all feel like this is 141 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 8: where the love is, you know, the real, raw, primal love. 142 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 8: We're not doing it to be emotionally hurt. We're doing 143 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,479 Speaker 8: it really in outs of finding joy and ecstasy. 144 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: Though the Gore books were titillating, Gloria never really connected 145 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: with them. The strict gender roles depicted in the series 146 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: felt anachronistic. On Gore, men were in charge, women followed, listened, 147 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: and served, often while scantily clad, which is. 148 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 8: Why I didn't like the book and I didn't care 149 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 8: for the series, because I'm feminist to the core, and 150 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 8: I was from the age of fourteen, and I actually 151 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 8: was raised that way by my parents. 152 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: Gloria's introduction to Gore was brief didn't leave that much 153 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: of an impact, But later in life, when she immersed 154 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: herself in the BDSM community, she learned that some people 155 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: felt very connected to the books. 156 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 8: A few years later, when I finally did hook up 157 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 8: with the BDSM world, there were Golorians among us who 158 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 8: took various handles straight out of the novel. It was 159 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 8: more about obedience and women serving the will of their master. 160 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: There's no way to know how many people in the 161 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: US or in the world call themselves Gorrian or try 162 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: to live according to the principles in the books. But 163 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: if you move in BDSM spaces, you may come across 164 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: them once in a while. 165 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 8: I once met a Gourian couple where the guys started 166 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 8: to tell me, well, you know, all women were born 167 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 8: to be submissive, And that was like the end of 168 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 8: the conversation right there, you know, because really, you know, 169 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 8: there's no universal anything about male or female this world. 170 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: It's been hard to pierce as an outsider reporter and 171 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: a woman. Gorrians are extremely protective of their lifestyle, knowing 172 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: that their choices are probably not accepted in the mainstream. 173 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: Those who did talk to me shared fears of being 174 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: outed and losing their jobs or jeopardizing their families. In 175 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: order to better understand what it even is to be 176 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: a Gorrian, I spent six months lurking in the online 177 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: spaces where they hang out these days, Reddit and discord, 178 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: and listening in on these conversations. I was able to 179 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: glean some information. For example, there's a spectrum of Goreyan participation. 180 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: On one end are those who keep it virtual where 181 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: they role play the master slave dynamic online. And on 182 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: the other end are people who live every day like this, 183 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: couples who enter into a contract. Sometimes we're in sometimes not, 184 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: where the woman submits to the man, relinquishing her rights 185 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: to choice, freedom agency. It sounds shocking, but for some 186 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,599 Speaker 1: people it is very sexy and very satisfying. 187 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 8: I do believe that Gorrian's, just like other bdsmmers, are 188 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 8: very choosy and carefortable about who they give power to, 189 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 8: and they reserve power for their masters. If you have 190 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 8: two really good people who really are compatible, that's going 191 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 8: to be fun. But if you are with somebody who 192 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 8: is flawed, or has mental health issues, or is actually 193 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 8: really a troubled person, it could be quite dangerous. 194 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 4: I've been a twenty four to seven slave owned by 195 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 4: Master Zarius since two thousand and four. One of my 196 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 4: friends that calls me a pragmatic hedonist. I'm totally down 197 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 4: with that. 198 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: I'm looking at a social media account that Teleina created. 199 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: In her bio, she describes herself and her husband Tom 200 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: aka Master Zarius. 201 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 4: We're a Gorrian family and belong to the Gray Eagle family. 202 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 4: Previous to being owned by Master Czarius, I was a 203 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 4: BDSM submissive to a variety of masters and mistresses. I've 204 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 4: been in the lifestyle since. 205 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: I was eighteen. This is a dramatization of some of 206 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: Telena's writing on fet life, a dating and social media 207 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: site for people interested in fetish and BDSM picture Facebook, 208 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: but with dick pics and leather. If you're curious. It's 209 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: not safe for work unless your work is making a 210 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: podcast about all of this. I was able to see 211 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: Telena's profile simply by signing up for an account. As 212 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: far as I can tell, there was a time when 213 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: Telena was a prolific fet life user. She connected with 214 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: new friends, found events to attend, and shared a lot 215 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: of personal writing. Although fetlife is primarily a sexual form, 216 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: there's not much on her page about sex at all. 217 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: Most of what she shared was overwhelmingly wholesome. Little essays 218 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: focused on the banality of everyday life, and people would 219 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: respond with kind comments. This was clearly her chosen community, 220 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: where she felt safe to be herself. 221 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 4: I've spent too much of my life being so harsh 222 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 4: on myself. My house isn't as clean as my mother's. 223 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 4: My waistline isn't as small as someone else's, my hair 224 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 4: is too stringy, my taste buds aren't developed enough. 225 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: Whatever, Telena revealed a lot about her life, her insecurities, 226 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: her ongoing weight less journey. 227 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 4: I tried on the cute pants first, and they fit 228 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 4: like they were made on me. And it happened. A 229 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 4: small smile curled the left side of my mouth, and 230 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 4: for the first time in many weeks, I was able 231 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 4: to see my entire body in the mirror, and I 232 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 4: liked what I saw. 233 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: Her adventures in baking a short. 234 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 4: Time later, voila an excellent dessert, which the guys at 235 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 4: my office are enjoying right now as I type this. 236 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 4: I cut the result into squares and stack them to 237 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 4: make a cute little strata. Everyone here thinks I'm an 238 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 4: excellent baker. 239 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: Reading through these essays, I got a real feel for 240 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: Tellina's personality. She's spunky and adventurous. In one post, she 241 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: talks about skydiving with her niece, but she's also not 242 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: afraid to be vulnerable. 243 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: I started thinking about how so much of my life 244 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 4: has been work to find the balance between being tough 245 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 4: and being soft. I went a little overboard in the 246 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 4: toughness department, to the point where I had no soft 247 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: edges at all. On more than one occasion, I was 248 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: thrown out of bars for fighting. A little before I 249 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 4: turned thirty, I started getting tired of always having to 250 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,359 Speaker 4: be so tough, so my pendulum swung. 251 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: The other way. 252 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 4: I became all soft all the time. When I took 253 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 4: off the exterior shell of toughness, my soft underbelly was 254 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 4: all that was left. I cried at the slightest provocation. 255 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 4: My feelings were frequently injured, and I showed her poppy 256 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 4: dog eyes to my owner when he raised his voice 257 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 4: just a few decibels. Okay, So being tough all the 258 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 4: time was exhausting, and being weak all the time was 259 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 4: even worse. 260 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: Si Teleina wrote a lot about her relationship with her 261 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: husband Tom, who she refers to as Master Csaius or 262 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: just Master. 263 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: How well did I adapt to being property? Well, that 264 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 4: depends on whether you ask me or Master lol. 265 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly how or when Teleina and Tom met, 266 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: except that they both served in the military, and by 267 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: two thousand and four they were living together in Indiana. 268 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: Teleina was thirty eight, Tom forty six, and it's possible 269 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: that it was Tom who introduced her to Gore. According 270 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: to his own posts on fet life, he discovered of 271 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: books in his youth and they made a big impact 272 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: on him. Here's a dramatization of Tom's writing. 273 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: I began reading the Gore books in nineteen seventy nine. 274 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: Within them, the philosophical tenets of a man being a 275 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 2: man and a woman being a woman rang true for me. 276 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 2: There was a twenty five year gap between starting my 277 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: journey as a Gorrian mastering my first slave. I admit 278 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: that mastering my Teleina these past ten plus years has 279 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 2: been a very rewarding and insightful experience. 280 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: According to her profile, Telena had been in BDSM type 281 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: relationships since she was eighteen years old, but with Tom, 282 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: she moved into something different, a master slave relationship that 283 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: required her submission to him twenty four seven. 284 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 4: I was not used to not being in charge of 285 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: my time tasks, Destiny. It was an ugly adjustment that 286 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 4: ended up bringing depth and greater understanding in my relationship 287 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 4: with Master. Because we both wanted to be together in 288 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 4: our roles so badly, neither of us expected it to 289 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: be so hard. 290 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: They lived strictly according to Gorerian principles, which meant that 291 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: Tom was in charge of all decisions until Lena yielded 292 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: control absolutely to her husband. 293 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 4: I learned how to shut up. I know it sounds 294 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 4: simple and truly it is. However, the amount of will 295 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 4: power necessary to put this into practice is enormous. The 296 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 4: self control practiced by all the slaves who I esteem 297 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 4: is beyond imagining to most of those who don't serve. 298 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: For most people, me included, the word slavery does not 299 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: have any positive connotations. Wars have been waged to abolish it. 300 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: Generations of people have worked to ensure no one endures 301 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: such a fate, and here is someone voluntarily living this way. Honestly, 302 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: I find it hard to wrap my head around. And 303 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: yet the way Telena described it, their relationship sounded more 304 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: nuanced than I had expected. 305 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 4: I see so many posts asking what is quote normal 306 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 4: for a master, mistress owner to do. This is my response. 307 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 4: Our real master gets up at six am on the 308 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 4: weekend to take the dogs out because his slave has 309 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 4: a migraine. Our real master waters the basil plants when 310 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 4: his slave is away, even if he doesn't like to 311 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 4: eat this stuff himself. Our real master goes for a 312 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 4: walk rather than taking his anger out on his slave. 313 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 4: Our real master understands that his slave won't always perform perfectly. 314 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 4: While setting the atmosphere for perfection to happen. Our real 315 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 4: master punishes his slave when she does something wrong because 316 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 4: he loves her. A real master uses his hands to 317 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 4: hold and comfort a slave when she's overwhelmed with fear. 318 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 4: These are all things that I believe a real master 319 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 4: should do, and the these are all things my master 320 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 4: does regularly. I'm a blessed girl. 321 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: Teleina freely shared the inner workings of her relationship with 322 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: the Gore community, and over time became an expert, someone 323 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: who guided others new to the lifestyle. I discovered from 324 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: digging through her old posts that at some point she 325 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: actually began formally teaching classes with Tom on how to 326 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: be in a dominant submissive relationship. Here's a description of 327 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: a class they taught in twenty thirteen called Formal Dinner Service, 328 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: where slaves were taught how to serve food while naked. 329 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 4: Learn the science behind serving table covers, how to serve 330 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 4: formal table settings, napkin folding. Then go deeper into the 331 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 4: mindset behind formal service. Take some time to experience the 332 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: thrill of coordinated movements, feel the rush of performing a 333 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 4: job well. Acknowledge the place deep inside yourself where a 334 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 4: desire to serve naked lives. While you'll walk away with handouts, 335 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 4: the most valuable gift you'll receive is the knowledge that 336 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 4: setting and serving at a formal table is within your 337 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 4: immediate grasp. After the class, join us for a luscious 338 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 4: dinner where you can practice your skills, either as a 339 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 4: diner or a server. 340 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: Deep diving into the Gore series, the subculture that is 341 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: cropped up around it, and Telena's embrace of its principles, 342 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: I had so many questions, the most pressing being why 343 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: would someone so smart, self aware, and opinionated like Telena 344 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: want to engage in a dynamic like this. Don't get 345 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: me wrong, there's a part of me that understands the 346 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: allure of seeding control. There are plenty of days where 347 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: I feel so burned out that I don't want to 348 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: decide anything what to eat, or what to wear, or 349 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: even what show to put on to decompress. But as 350 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: a woman, wife, and mom, equity in my head household 351 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: is really important to me. My partner and I deliberately 352 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: strive to share the mental and physical loads of life, 353 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: play acting these roles for kink and pleasure in the bedroom. 354 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: I get that, But to live within this dynamic where 355 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: the male partner always has the final say. It goes 356 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: against every fiber of my being. Why would someone desire this? 357 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 6: For many people, it feels comforting to not have to 358 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 6: be in control all the time. There's this feeling of 359 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 6: glorious freedom actually in not having to make decisions anymore. 360 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 6: You've just become an instrument of somebody else's will, and 361 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 6: this is actually liberating because now, instead of being constantly 362 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 6: faced with all of these choices that maybe overwhelm you, 363 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 6: somebody else is going to make them for you, and 364 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 6: that feels good. 365 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: This is Julie Fennel, a sociologist and longtime member of 366 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: the BDSM community who studies gender and sexuality. She's the 367 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: author of Please Scream Quietly, a story of kink. 368 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 6: I guess the last thing is just providing pleasure and 369 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 6: happiness to another person, which is a very human thing 370 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 6: to enjoy doing that. You really get a lot out 371 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 6: of seeing your dominant feel pleasure and be happy and 372 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 6: knowing that that came from you. 373 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: Julie told me that people who choose to live as 374 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: submissives are oftentimes a healthy, well adjusted, and self confident, 375 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: making the choice out of free will. But she acknowledges 376 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: that's not the case for everyone. 377 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 6: I have data that suggests to me that a lot 378 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 6: of people are motivated by unhealthy things, which, unfortunately the 379 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 6: BDSM community is terrible actually having frank conversations about I 380 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 6: put the data in my book from twenty seventeen is 381 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 6: quite clear that submissives have lower self esteemed than dominance do. 382 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 6: I think a lot of times people are motivated to 383 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 6: be submissive because they think they aren't good enough at 384 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 6: being a person, and so they want somebody else who 385 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 6: they think is better at being a person to help 386 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 6: them be a person. 387 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: There's a stereotype the people who are into BDSM must 388 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: have had bad experiences in their childhood that led them 389 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: down this path, and that BDSM is a way to 390 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: grapple with or relive those traumas. And maybe in some 391 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: cases that's true, but as Julie explained it, many others 392 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: just like the sensation of a whip on their skin 393 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: or being tied up with ropes. 394 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 6: I can take them for a walk. I like putting 395 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 6: people on leashes. 396 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: It's fine, as she said, not everything has to be pathologized. 397 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: Julie pointed out that a big draw of BDSM is 398 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: the community aspect, finding others who don't judge you for 399 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: who you are. Beyond online spaces like fat life, it's 400 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: not uncommon for BDSM ors to congregate in person, whether 401 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: that's at nightclubs, backyard barbecues, or dungeons. 402 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 6: Any good socia just can tell you that just being 403 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 6: part of the community is usually very good for people's 404 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 6: mental health. I think finding community is often the biggest 405 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 6: reason why people end up being heavily involved in the 406 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 6: buds and subculture. Like sure, they might like doing kinky things, 407 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 6: but ultimately the thing that really gets some joy and 408 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 6: why they keep coming back to this what is functionally 409 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 6: a social club, is because they like the people there, 410 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 6: and they feel emotional support and validation from them. On 411 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 6: the whole, it's pretty beautiful to be around. It can 412 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 6: be pretty beautiful to be around other people who share 413 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 6: your outlook and values. 414 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: I get that, but is the gore community beautiful? I 415 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: have limited insight, but the conversations I observed in gore 416 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: spaces were pretty misogynistic. In one discord form I joined, 417 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: the women slaves were constantly talked down to and seemed 418 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: unable to share their opinions freely. Their names had to 419 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: be in lowercase letters, and they couldn't even talk about 420 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: themselves in the first person, she instead of I. It 421 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: didn't take long for me to get kicked out of 422 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: the forum for simply asking one of the women what 423 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: it was like to identify as a slave. This Goreyan culture. 424 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: I observed it seemed to me to be a cover 425 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: for old fashioned beliefs about the superiority of men. 426 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 6: Oh will hasten to add that that is like way 427 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 6: outside of mainstream BDSM right now. 428 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: Goreyan philosophy is an outlier in the BDSM world. Julie 429 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: says that's because gore really goes against the current understanding 430 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: of gender, which is far more fluid and dynamic. She 431 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: mentioned a survey she conducted among bdsmers asking them if 432 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: they agreed with the statement I believe that men are 433 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive. Only ten percent 434 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: did Yes. 435 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 6: Subculture as a whole is extremely liberal for a variety 436 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 6: of reasons. There's this thread in pan sexual media, so 437 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,719 Speaker 6: I'm community that, like, we're all, regardless of our gender, 438 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 6: have all the ds and roles equally available to us. 439 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 6: The idea of a system that would restrict that is 440 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 6: very antagonistic to that norm. And so it's one of 441 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 6: many reasons why I would say mainstream medias some subculture 442 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 6: tends to like giggle a lot nowadays about Gore. 443 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: Gore gets a laugh, the sci fi elements, the arcane beliefs, 444 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: we're so far past women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. 445 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean it's harmless. 446 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 6: It is not unheard of for people who are in 447 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 6: master slave relationships to say that they have given up 448 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 6: their safeword, which means that like whatever the top chooses 449 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 6: to do to them, the bottom has said that they 450 00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 6: will take it. 451 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: Giving up your bodily autonomy, it can make you vulnerable 452 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: to abuse, to being in dangerous situations, which made me 453 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: wonder was Teleina ever in harm's way. There was one 454 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: essay she wrote that gave me the shivers. 455 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 4: Not long ago, Master, and we'll call it a difference 456 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: in viewpoints. That sounds pretty benign, right, he he he. 457 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 4: That difference in viewpoint culminated in me making a conscious 458 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 4: choice to not follow Master's protocols for greeting him when 459 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 4: he came in one evening. Frankly, I had come to 460 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 4: the conclusion inside my head that Master didn't care about 461 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 4: the greeting ritual and wouldn't mind me skipping it. Boy, 462 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 4: was I wrong. When I was close to Master, he 463 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 4: reached out his arms as his lips came close to mine. 464 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 4: I thought we were going to have a hug and kiss. 465 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 4: Imagine surprise when Master's hand went around my throat and 466 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 4: he forced me to my knees while calmly and quietly 467 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 4: asking did you forget something? I believe he even had 468 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 4: a smile on his face. 469 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: As a reporter who has spent a decade writing about 470 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: domestic violence, this story raises all the alarm bells. But 471 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: I asked Julie what she made of it. She tells 472 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: it as this story of like that she was grateful 473 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,479 Speaker 1: to be reminded of She was happy that he cared 474 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: enough about it that he would punish her and put 475 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: it back on her place. But I've spent my career 476 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: writing about domestic violence, and so for me, it's hard 477 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: to read that essay and not see it as abuse. 478 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: And like, I've seen a lot of victims of domestic 479 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: violence really come up with really creative ways to justify 480 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: the behavior and make sense of it in their own relationship. 481 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 6: You tell me this story and you say this is disturbing, 482 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 6: and I understand why. But I hear that the story 483 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 6: and I think. 484 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 8: Oh, that's hot. 485 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 7: I'm not going to say say I think there's something 486 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 7: seriously wrong with John Norman and his followers. 487 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: This is Jess the Internet sleuth in Minnesota. 488 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 7: I'm not like out there, I'm woman. Hear me, roar right, 489 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 7: I'm not doing that. But it would be a cold 490 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 7: day in how before my husband whipped me or told 491 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 7: me I could or couldn't do anything because he would 492 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 7: find himself outside the house. 493 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: After finding out about Telena's disappearance from a Facebook post, 494 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't take just long to connect to Lena to 495 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: the Gorrian subculture. 496 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 7: I did like digging, like her name to Lena Tzar. 497 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 7: I was like, that's that's weird. So I kind of 498 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 7: just googled and this Goryan stuff popped up. And then 499 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 7: as you go through with some of her friends, it'll 500 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 7: say Gorrian or master or sister wife or just little 501 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,239 Speaker 7: odd tidbits and I'm like, what is that? 502 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 8: What is that? 503 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: Scrolling through Telena's Facebook just comes across a post from 504 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: January twenty twenty, just a few months before Telena goes missing. 505 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: It's a photo of Telena's new Oklahoma driver's license, along 506 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: with her story of dealing with the bureaucracy of legally 507 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: changing her name. 508 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 4: Here's the conversation I had at the Social Security office today, 509 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 4: me I've had a name change and need to get 510 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 4: my card changed. Social Security worker, Why did you change 511 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 4: your name because I wanted to? Did you get married 512 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 4: or divorced? 513 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 7: Know? 514 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 5: Then? 515 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 4: Why did you change your name because I wanted to? 516 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,479 Speaker 4: So you don't have a reason. Yes, I have a reason. 517 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 4: The reason is because I wanted to. I don't feel 518 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 4: like we're getting anywhere me same. 519 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: So right before Telena disappeared, she legally changed her name, 520 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: and not just her last name, both of her given names. 521 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: She went from Jana Lovic to Teleina Galloway. Galloway was 522 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: Tom's last name, even though they never formally married and 523 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: Tom had been dead for over two years, carrying on 524 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: his memory in this way seemed important to her, and 525 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: the name Teleina. She'd been using that first name for 526 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: years amongst friends and family. According to the petition she 527 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: filed with the State Online, she used the handle Telena 528 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: tzar for her social media accounts. Jess isn't sure where 529 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: tzar comes from, but Telena it appears she had taken 530 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: it directly from the Gore books. The Gore world is 531 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: one just knows nothing about, but she's willing to learn. 532 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 7: So I started reading the novels and then listening to 533 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 7: him on audiobook, and it's different. It's not something I 534 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 7: would read, I don't think. 535 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: And how many did you read? 536 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 7: I think probably ten. 537 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: While the rest of the country is exploring new hobbies 538 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: during quarantine, Jess is getting a mini education in BDSM 539 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: and Gore culture, and from what she learns, it seems 540 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: like a subculture where women could easily be taken advantage of, hurt, 541 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: or even killed. Jess knows that Talina's late husband Tom 542 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: couldn't have been involved in her disappearance, but what about 543 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: the other men in the Gore community, Men who saw 544 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: women as property, men who were not used to hearing 545 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: the word no. 546 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 7: They have very black and white views on I'm the man, 547 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 7: It's my job to protect. It's your job to submit 548 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 7: to me and never ask questions. Ever, you do exactly 549 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 7: as I say when I say it. I'm going to 550 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 7: put a collar on you. You don't need dinner until I 551 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 7: say so. You have sex with who I say so. 552 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 7: You wait on me, hand and foot as I say so. 553 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 7: Very very just dominant, submissive, not like fifty Shades of Gray, 554 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 7: but like some of the stuff I saw on fet 555 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 7: life because I created a fake profile to creep on 556 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 7: these people. I mean, there's women in cages, there's women 557 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 7: that they bleed, that like cut them so they bleed. 558 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 7: They do something called kid play where they wear diapers 559 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 7: and for turn their kids. It's very not my cup 560 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 7: of tea. 561 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: Jess and the internet sleuths start wondering is their main 562 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: source Toelena's friend Marty also a Gorian. For one, there's 563 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: that photo where he referred to Toelena as another of 564 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: his wives. And then there's his unusual nickname Wolf or Wolfy. 565 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 7: I remember a conversation where we all refused directly to 566 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 7: call Wolf wolf because we were like, we're not calling 567 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 7: you by some pseudo friggin' you know, master name. All 568 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 7: of us we're like, this is disgusting, we're not into it. 569 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 7: And then I came to understand that that was not 570 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 7: his Gorrian name, so we decided to call him Wolf 571 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 7: and Wolf tried very hard for the first I want 572 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 7: to say, two three weeks to cover up the goryan 573 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 7: aspect of it, even though we were very convinced that 574 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 7: had something to do with it. 575 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: You did think I had something to do with it initially. 576 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: I did, absolutely Still Jess is not afraid to ask 577 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: Marty Wolf pointed questions about Gore. 578 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 7: He gave me a very PG version of things. He 579 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 7: had told me that it was like live action role 580 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 7: play of dungeons and dragons, but they have sex with 581 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 7: each other. That's how he explained it to me, and 582 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 7: I said, oh, okay. I didn't want to think that 583 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 7: I was super judging him, because I don't want to 584 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 7: make anybody feel bad about their sexual preference or what 585 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 7: they want to do as long as everybody's gong holl 586 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 7: for it. Cool sounds good. 587 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: But the more I talked about it. 588 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 7: More it sounded like these women weren't They were consenting, 589 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 7: but they were all abused or had had really bad lives, 590 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 7: and I didn't think that they were mentally capable really 591 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 7: of making the choice to consent to something like that. 592 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 7: And when I questioned him on it, he just rubbed 593 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 7: it off like that I didn't know what I was 594 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 7: talking about, and maybe I don't. I'm not sure. 595 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: As the COVID shutdown stretches from days to weeks, Marty 596 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: lets down his guard opens up about gore life. He 597 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 1: eventually explains to Jess that Teleina and Tom and Marty 598 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: and his wife were all in a Gorerian family together 599 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: called the Great Eagle Family. 600 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 7: To take their family group seriously, the mento had rings 601 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 7: of an eagle, and they all had the same ring 602 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 7: because they were in the Great Eagle Family. He was 603 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 7: very proud of it. He thought it was great. 604 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: Teleina seemed to be proud of it too. Here's how 605 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: she identifies at the top of her fet life profile. 606 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 4: We are a Gorrian family and belong to the Great 607 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 4: Eagle Family who hosts an event in Oklahoma called Gorefest. 608 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 4: We always have a fantastic time. 609 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: Gorefest was a festival created by Marty. Every so often, 610 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: he and his wife invited Gorrians from across the country 611 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: to their sprawling property in Oklahoma for a weekend of revelry. 612 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: Talina and Tom loved going to Gorefest so much so 613 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: that they ultimately moved to Oklahoma to be closer to 614 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: Marty and their Goryan friends. It was also at Gorefest 615 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: where Teleina met Corey, who went on to become her 616 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: roommate after Tom died. I found an old website that 617 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: Marty ran dedicated to Gorefest that includes this little history. 618 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 9: In nineteen ninety nine, a few Gorrians from online html 619 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 9: chat decided to get together for a small gathering to 620 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 9: share in real time what they felt in virtual time. 621 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 9: To honor the spirit that John Norman wrote about in 622 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 9: his books. It would be a time for all to 623 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 9: come together and share thoughts and ideas while enjoying for 624 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 9: a short time what each role plays online, whether free 625 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 9: or slave, to enjoy the freedom of being themselves. From 626 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 9: the original thirteen that were here in the fall of 627 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 9: nineteen ninety nine for the first gathering to the record 628 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 9: seventy five attending in two thousand and four, there exudes 629 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 9: an astounding feeling a family. 630 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: Clicking around on this old website, I found the list 631 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: of events. Sparring acts, throwing tug awar and serving slaves 632 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: could take part in a position competition testing their knowledge 633 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: of the ten submissive positions they should be able to 634 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: assume upon command. According to Gorean philosophy. Don't look these 635 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: up at work either, and there was also cy a 636 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: slave auction. On another page was a list of gore 637 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: Fest attendees, divided into two categories. In one list, I 638 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: found mass Csarius, Tom, Master Shekhar Marty. In another, the 639 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: slave list, Telena tzar czar as In, belonging to Master Czarius. 640 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: By the time Telena went missing, Master Czarius was dead, 641 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: so did Telena belong to someone else. Marty explained to 642 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: Jess that Telena was now an unknowned slave. Marty had 643 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: Telena's quote protection caller, which meant that he was looking 644 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: after her. He wasn't her master, but he was a 645 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: protector of sorts, though what she needed to be protected 646 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: from was unclear. 647 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 7: I asked about the protection caller he said he had 648 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 7: for Telena, and then he explained to me when Tom died, 649 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 7: he moved in there to help Teleina because she hadn't 650 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 7: dealt with her own money or anything. When Tom was alive, 651 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 7: Tulina had no control over her own life. Everything was 652 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 7: decided by him. When she went to work, what she wore, 653 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 7: what she ate when they ate, Any money she made 654 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 7: went straight to him and he covered you know, he 655 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 7: paid the bills. So when Tom died, wolflipped there and 656 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 7: did all that for her. So he said that it 657 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 7: was his Telena wife, so it was a second wife, 658 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 7: and said the caller was just to protect her from 659 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 7: other Gorrians trying to take her caller, and at that 660 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 7: time I didn't know what that. 661 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: Meant, other Gorrians trying to take her coller. Jess is 662 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: suspicious of the list of men who attended Gorefest over 663 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: the years, masters whose real identities are unknown to her, 664 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: but Marty is adamant that all this Gore stuff has 665 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: nothing to do with Telena's disappearance. She's looking in the 666 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: wrong place. Jess thinks there's more he's not telling her, 667 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: but as time goes on, she starts to believe he's 668 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: being earnest. 669 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 7: We built kind of a trust, you know. I feel 670 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 7: like he would tell me a little bits and pieces 671 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 7: of things about his relationship, and he'd become really vulnerable 672 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 7: with me. He'd cry. He started telling me personal stories 673 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 7: about his life, his family, his mom, and we just 674 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,439 Speaker 7: built a relationship. He'd like to FaceTime with me and 675 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 7: he'd see the kids in the background and he'd say 676 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 7: nice things. You know, he never said anything creepy to 677 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 7: me or the kids. To me, he'd sometimes say creepy things, 678 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 7: but never to my children. He'd always, Oh, look at Mattie. 679 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 7: It looks like she's grown since the last time I 680 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 7: saw her. She looks beautiful. Like things that you would 681 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 7: say to me, you know, you'd be like, oh, your 682 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 7: daughter is still pretty or something. You know. We back 683 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 7: and forth, like he'd say nice things about people's kids 684 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 7: to them, and we just got close. 685 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: The two are an unlikely pair, a nosy bartender in Minnesota, 686 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,879 Speaker 1: a geeky goryan master in Oklahoma, having intimate conversations deep 687 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: into the night, trauma bonded in the depths of COVID isolation, 688 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: when all of a sudden, a new clue takes the 689 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: investigation in an entirely different direction. And I'm telling my 690 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: buddy this as we're sitting in the garage. 691 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 7: And he said, do. 692 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 2: You not think that you just got created an entity, 693 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 2: an a possible friend. 694 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: That's next week on What Happened to Telena'sar? What Happened 695 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: to Telenazar is a production of iHeart Podcasts. It's written, reported, 696 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Melissa Jelson, with writing and story 697 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 1: editing by Lauren Hansen. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch. 698 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are Jason English and Karl 699 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: Catle Well fact checking by Savannah Hugley. Zoe Denkla is 700 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: our associate producer. Jeremy Thal is our editor. Original music 701 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 1: by Aaron Kaufman, with additional music by Jeremy Thal and 702 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: Gideon Crevische. Episodes are mixed and mastered by Carl Katle 703 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: Voice acting by Lizzie Gore, Chris Ferry, Stephanie Frame, Pete Monica, 704 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: and Molly Maslin. Our logo is designed by Edo Moore. 705 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening.