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Speaker 1: To welcome bastards behind people bad about talk Evans Robert host,

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Speaker 1: Hello boy, Sophie, I forgot the order of words go

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Speaker 1: into and sentences briefly. That was wonderful. Um, I think

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Speaker 1: people will get the gist of it. I think all

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Speaker 1: you need is to present the proper words and the

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Speaker 1: order doesn't really matter. This is like a do it

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Speaker 1: yourself podcast. I just I throw the words at you.

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Speaker 1: You you line them up right. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: Yoda is so popular? That's exactly what I was going for, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: Is Yoda? And like Yoda, I also train child soldiers.

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Speaker 1: I know, I've met Harrison Well. Their little hands can

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Speaker 1: reach into the hard to reach places of a rifle, um,

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Speaker 1: which makes it a lot easier for them to do maintenance. Look,

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Speaker 1: this isn't a podcast about white child soldiers are such

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Speaker 1: a good idea. This is a podcast about the worst

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Speaker 1: people in all of history and today. My guess is

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Speaker 1: Francesca if yeah right, yeah, Francesca. I was on your show,

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Speaker 1: which is which is has both a pod and a

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Speaker 1: video component. Yes, and I apologize for that. I I

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Speaker 1: like forced you to turn on your camera, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: Roberts rushed it. It was It was rough, you know,

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Speaker 1: seeing actually seeing your face. I don't people, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if people are ready for just how like Disney

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Speaker 1: Prince handsome you are, like, uh, that's a very nice

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Speaker 1: way to say perpetually hungover. Thank you? Yeah yeah yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: and like you know, in a punk rock like Disney

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Speaker 1: Prince but punk rock. Um yeah. That was the Bituation

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Speaker 1: Room podcast. Everyone should check that out. And Robert was

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Speaker 1: great and it was a great podcast. I had a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun on it. Um And today we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be bitch you wastioning about well, something else I want

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Speaker 1: to keep. I want to actually keep the the exact

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Speaker 1: topic of today's podcast a secret and tell the big

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Speaker 1: reveal because it's gonna be it's gonna be a good time.

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Speaker 1: Um not. How do you feel about babies? I feel

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Speaker 1: like I've been asking that a lot. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't like where this is going already. Alright, alright,

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Speaker 1: let me ask it easier question. How do you feel

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Speaker 1: about Nazis? Oh? Bad, there you go, Nazis are bad. Nazis, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, just cutting edge, maybe a little too much, so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: definitely too much cutting. That's fair to say about Nazi doctors. Um,

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Speaker 1: this is a fun one because we're talking about Nazi doctors.

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Speaker 1: But the most of what we're talking about a curse

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Speaker 1: in like the nineteen sixties. So you're gonna have a

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Speaker 1: good time with this one. You're gonna have a really

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Speaker 1: good time with It's almost like there. They never suffered

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Speaker 1: the full consequences of their crimes against humanity, and that

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Speaker 1: is able to scatter throughout the world and keep on genociding.

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Speaker 1: So that is a big aspect of what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about now. I'm going to guess you and most of

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Speaker 1: our listeners are broadly familiar with the story of a

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Speaker 1: doctor named Joseph Mangola who was one of the worst,

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Speaker 1: maybe the worst doctor there's ever been. He was the

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Speaker 1: chief physician at Birkenau, which was a subcamp of Auschwitz

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Speaker 1: UH and Mangela carried out selections, which meant he was

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Speaker 1: part one of his jobs. He was one of a

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Speaker 1: number of doctors who would determine who would go on

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Speaker 1: to do labor at the camp and who would be

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Speaker 1: killed immediately. Um. And he liked doing selections because he

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Speaker 1: also got to pick out people who he thought would

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Speaker 1: be most useful for the medical experiments that he was

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Speaker 1: carrying out, and that mostly meant picking out twins. He

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Speaker 1: had a whole thing for twins. It is weird. Um,

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Speaker 1: we will talk about Mangela one of these days. It's

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Speaker 1: like a grim singled out. Remember that show from the

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Speaker 1: Jesus No, He's like you was twins? Um. I mean

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Speaker 1: in some instances they did throw twins on there. It

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Speaker 1: was more of a dating game, which I know that

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Speaker 1: that Auschwitz was not about so alsotionately. If they had

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Speaker 1: just sort of recon figured it to be about life

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Speaker 1: and love and not you know, death, Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe uh, it could have been had something there. I mean.

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Speaker 1: The horrible thing is that if you look at pictures

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Speaker 1: of Dr Mangola from the Holocaust era, he does not

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Speaker 1: look like you would expect. Um. He absolutely does not

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Speaker 1: look like you know, some of the Dazzis have that

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Speaker 1: have that strong war criminal vibe to them. To Mangola,

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Speaker 1: Mingola looks like aggressively normal, to the point where it's

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Speaker 1: it's actually deeply unsettling. I do stand up comedy, so

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Speaker 1: I'm surrounded by a very very sweet faced boys. You're like, wait,

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Speaker 1: you showed your junk to whom? Yeah, exactly Mingola would

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Speaker 1: have killed in the l A stand up scenes, by

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Speaker 1: which I mean that like swoop back hair situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't call him as doctor death um, although maybe

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Speaker 1: you would because it's always the aggressively normal looking guys.

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Speaker 1: So Mangola is particularly famous because the experiments he can

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Speaker 1: did on twins were so garishly vile. He would amputate

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Speaker 1: like one twins limb, or infect one twin with the

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Speaker 1: disease to see if it would transfer to the other

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Speaker 1: in some way. At one point he killed fourteen twins

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Speaker 1: in a single night by injecting their hearts with chloroform.

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Speaker 1: He would also inject die into the eye color of

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Speaker 1: one twin to see if it would change the color

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Speaker 1: and the other twins eyes, just like Eli Roth style

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Speaker 1: batshit nonsense like people talk about like well, you'll hear

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Speaker 1: sometimes from people who have not studied the Holocaust enough

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Speaker 1: like well, you know it was horrible, but they did

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Speaker 1: get some like useful medical data out of it. Was

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Speaker 1: like no, it's almost all nonsense, Like it was just

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Speaker 1: people doing like like like completely bug fuck pointless shit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's deputizing like a thirteen year old kid with just

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Speaker 1: all the hormones, like just like trying to hook up

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Speaker 1: a rat to a balloon and seeing how high it goes.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, it was like all the kids who

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Speaker 1: someone should have come to them when they were eleven

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Speaker 1: years old and like, uh like torturing cats, and instead

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Speaker 1: you give them like complete control over the life and

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Speaker 1: death of thousands at a work camp. It's it was

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Speaker 1: pretty bad, is what I'm saying about the Holocaust. That's awful.

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Speaker 1: And and and I know you've had Matt Leeban who

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Speaker 1: is my boyfriend, and he is actually a fraternal twin,

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Speaker 1: and uh so I wish he was on his talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about this. But um, as he says

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Speaker 1: on stage in a joke, you know, he cannot feel

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Speaker 1: his twin sisters orgasms. So, uh no, you can't feel

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Speaker 1: you might you might get you're sensitive to your twin,

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Speaker 1: but you can't feel their pain. Yeah, And you could

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Speaker 1: have asked them that as opposed to injecting die into

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Speaker 1: their eyes to see if that did something, my God like,

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Speaker 1: and there's the baby's a crying. Yeah, that's what babies do.

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Speaker 1: Also they're in prison. Yeah, yeah, you've taken them from

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Speaker 1: their parents. Mangela. This isn't really useful data. So Mangola

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Speaker 1: deserves his infamy. Obviously he's the most famous of the

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Speaker 1: Naxi Nazi doctors, but there were actually a shipload of

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Speaker 1: doctors necessary to keep the third Reichs machinery of death

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Speaker 1: humming along. For one thing, under like the rules the

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Speaker 1: Nazis established for the concentration camps, well for the death camps,

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Speaker 1: only doctors could actually deploy ziclon B into the gas chambers.

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Speaker 1: Every time gas was deployed into a chamber, it was

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Speaker 1: done by it by a physician. Um. That was like

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Speaker 1: one of the rules that they stuck to very diligently.

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Speaker 1: A great number of doctors were also involved in the

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Speaker 1: Holocaust through pharmaceutical giant I G. Farbon Um. Who are

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Speaker 1: the people who make aspirin they've turned into, I mean,

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Speaker 1: one of the things they've turned into now is bear um.

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Speaker 1: And one of the doctors who worked at IG Farban

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Speaker 1: was a fellow named Otto Ambrose. Now Dr Ambrose had

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Speaker 1: risen through the ranks of the company during the early

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Speaker 1: Nazi years, and from nineteen forty one he headed up

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Speaker 1: their search for a site to put new to put

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Speaker 1: in new synthetic rubber and fuel plants. They settled on

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Speaker 1: a Polish town named austwit Came, which became the site

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Speaker 1: for Auschwitz aswiki and I guess is the the Polish

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Speaker 1: version of the name Auschwitz. So IG Farban liked Auschwitz

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Speaker 1: as a site because the s S was already building

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Speaker 1: a amp there, and the s S agreed to give

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Speaker 1: them slave labor to help run their chemical plants. Construction

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Speaker 1: started in forty one. Auto Ambrose helped oversee this process

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Speaker 1: and managed the factory through the war years. I G.

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Speaker 1: Farban would rent Jewish slaves from the s S for

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Speaker 1: three marks per day, four marks if the worker was skilled. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen forty one, dr Ambrose wrote to the I. G.

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Speaker 1: Farban board, our new friendship with the s S is

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Speaker 1: proving very beneficial, so high ranking. So so are they

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Speaker 1: are we building chemical plants to eventually do bad things

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Speaker 1: to our own people? Like is it? Like a number

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Speaker 1: of things. So the plants, specifically that Ambrose is working,

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Speaker 1: they're attempting to because obviously Germany not great unnatural resources, right,

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Speaker 1: That's why all of German history has been the way

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Speaker 1: that it is so by hate, that's the main Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and J K. Obviously, Angela, You're fine. So they're trying

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Speaker 1: to make uh, synthetic rubber because they need rubber, but

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Speaker 1: they don't have access to the actual raw material that

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Speaker 1: makes rubber. Most of that comes from Africa in this period.

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Speaker 1: And they're also trying to make synthetic gasoline because they

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Speaker 1: need to be able to move their vehicles. But Germany

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Speaker 1: does not have a lot of like in the territory

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Speaker 1: they've conquered, doesn't have a lot of fuel. So that's

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Speaker 1: part of what they're doing, trying to keep the war

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Speaker 1: machine going. The other thing that the Nazis are trying

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Speaker 1: to make at Auschwitz is sarah nerve gas, and dr

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Speaker 1: Ambrose is one member of a team of four that

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Speaker 1: vince sarah nerve gas, which is one of the deadliest

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Speaker 1: nerve gases ever. And that's so they're they're making a

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Speaker 1: mix of horrible chemical weapons UH and attempting to make

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Speaker 1: different synthetic chemicals to allow the Nazi war machine to continue.

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Speaker 1: They're amazing, it's gonna go in some surprising directions though,

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Speaker 1: so high ranking I G. Farm employees at Auschwitz, like

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Speaker 1: dr Ambrose, were allowed to purchase clothing that had been

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Speaker 1: stolen from the people who were gassed, and the reason

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Speaker 1: that this was a good deal for them was that

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Speaker 1: Jews and other victims of the Holocaust were generally not

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Speaker 1: told they were head to do the death camp, and

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Speaker 1: they were just told they were being uh, they were migrating,

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Speaker 1: they were being forcibly migrated. So they would generally wear

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Speaker 1: their finest clothing because obviously you don't know if all

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Speaker 1: of your luggage is gonna make it, You're gonna wear

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Speaker 1: the best stuff you have so that you at least

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Speaker 1: have it when you arrive at your new home. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of times they're gassed in the finest clothing

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Speaker 1: that they have access to, and then it's taken from

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Speaker 1: their bodies and people like Dr Ambrose get to pick

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Speaker 1: through it. That is the smallest but cruelest detail and

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Speaker 1: the most insignificant part of Holocaust and death camps, but

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Speaker 1: also such an annoying fuck you, Like that was my

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Speaker 1: mom's necklace, that was my finest, like channel whatever jacket,

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Speaker 1: and you're just gonna that's not okay, No, it's all

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's the Holocaust. It's all pretty bad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess that's a good point. Yeah, it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: good life. Though working at Auschwitz as an ig Farban manager. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: the factory produced basically nothing of value from the Nazi

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Speaker 1: war machine. Again, one of the overwhelming themes here is

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Speaker 1: that like they were bad at a lot of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Like this is like people over emphasized because the History

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Speaker 1: Channel has done a million documentaries and like crazy Nazi

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Speaker 1: weapons and Nazi say they fucked up more than they

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Speaker 1: got things right, um, which is part of why they

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Speaker 1: lost the war. Um. Yeah, that's why I think it's

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Speaker 1: so messed up because there is lower Like I think

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Speaker 1: anyone who's that into Nazi and and Nazism and the

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Speaker 1: Third Reich and is like a little bit a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a fanboy or girl, And I always like

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Speaker 1: that line is so thin and weird. But like over

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Speaker 1: inflating just how like amazing their medical you know, um,

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Speaker 1: like innovations were. It's like, no, they were injecting children

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Speaker 1: with chlora what at chloro form? Chloroform was one of

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Speaker 1: the things they ejected children with, yeah, like and and

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Speaker 1: found out nothing. Yeah, they got nothing out of that,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and they had like a lot of their

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Speaker 1: fucking their super weapons was just like huge wastes of

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Speaker 1: resources that would have been better spent towards making I

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Speaker 1: don't know, uh, not very sexy, but incredibly effective medium

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Speaker 1: tank like the T thirty four that would have allowed

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Speaker 1: them to you know, actually have more armor on the

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Speaker 1: back like they were. Like, I'm a member of a

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Speaker 1: very awkward group of people which are German history, military

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Speaker 1: history and nerds who also have to repeat. But I'm

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Speaker 1: not like in that way. Um So, in early nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty five, the I G. Farban facility ash which was

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Speaker 1: abandoned after heavy US bombing. And this is actually where

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Speaker 1: Primo Levy, if you know anything about Primo Levy he is.

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Speaker 1: He survives Auschwitz because he gets gets a gig working.

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Speaker 1: He's a lab technician basically, and he gets a gig

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Speaker 1: working in the IG Farban lab. But he's able to

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Speaker 1: hide when they when they flee. Dr Ambrose, though, escapes

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Speaker 1: the Russian army with the German soldiers who flee Auschwitz.

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Speaker 1: Um and these soldiers take as many of their remaining

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Speaker 1: prisoners as possible and lead them on a death march

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Speaker 1: through the Polish winter just to try to get rid

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Speaker 1: of the rest of them. When the war ended and

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Speaker 1: the camps were liberated, the role of ig Farban and

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Speaker 1: doctors like Ambrose and Mangela became clearer in NIVE. After

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Speaker 1: Germany sued for peace, the Allied Command utterly dismantled German

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Speaker 1: industry and put what remained under its authority. The stage

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Speaker 1: intent was quote to render impossible any future threat to

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Speaker 1: Germany's neighbors or to world peace. Um and I guess

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Speaker 1: broadly you could say that was done well Germany. Great podcast, sir, Robert,

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Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed myself. Of war we did, and all

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Speaker 1: the bad people face consequences. Anyhow, what's this podcast again? Yeah? Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: as soon as they figured out dealt with that Nazi

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Speaker 1: threat to world peace, a new threat to world peace

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Speaker 1: presented itself, which was that the U S and the

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Speaker 1: U S s R we're just just just just rubbing

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Speaker 1: their dicks in anticipation of getting to kill each other,

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Speaker 1: particularly the US. At this point, um and hawks within

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Speaker 1: capitalist nations started agitating and preparing for a war against

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Speaker 1: communist Russia as soon as the one against Germany ended,

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Speaker 1: And it was decided by these guys that fully liquidating

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Speaker 1: German industry would be a bad idea since most of

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Speaker 1: that industry lay within the zone of Allied control, and

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Speaker 1: they might need to use it for the next war.

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Speaker 1: This is the same reason why a lot of German

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Speaker 1: military leaders don't get punished to the extent that they

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Speaker 1: should is there's this understanding like, well, these guys fought

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Speaker 1: the Soviets. We're about to fight the Soviets, so who

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Speaker 1: cares if they presided over a couple hundred thousand executions

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Speaker 1: in Poland or whatever? You know, we need this guy, um,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and therein lies the hypocrisy of war. Hey,

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Speaker 1: they're good at mass murder. We might need them for

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Speaker 1: we might need to murder some people. Yeah, one of

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Speaker 1: I think one of the I mean, there's a number,

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Speaker 1: and it happens on all sides, not just the United

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Speaker 1: Like the United States and Russia both we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about this a bit. Both take a lot of Nazis

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Speaker 1: to use. But like France does it, um, Britain does it,

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Speaker 1: like fucking Norway does it, Like everybody's It's like the

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Speaker 1: beanie babies of Nazis moment, like gotta call it them

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Speaker 1: all and like you have like the doctor and then

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Speaker 1: you get like the mad scientists at running factories. Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's like a fucking it's like a rummage sale at

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Speaker 1: the end of the third Reich, like, who needs an

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Speaker 1: expert with questionable morality? Everyone? It turns out that's what

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Speaker 1: states do. UM. I think the most offense, one of

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Speaker 1: the most probably the most defensive example to me, would

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Speaker 1: be Albert Speer, who was like Hitler's Hitler fucking loved

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Speaker 1: this dude. By kind of the end of Hitler's life.

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Speaker 1: Speer was his favorite Nazi and Albert Speer was an architect,

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Speaker 1: which Hitler always wanted to be, and if he had

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Speaker 1: probably could have been a decent architect. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people say if he'd focused on the instead art school,

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Speaker 1: But anyway, Hitler fucking loved architecture, loved Albert Speer. Spear

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Speaker 1: would like make all these grand designs for like how

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Speaker 1: how the German Reich was going to look after the war.

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Speaker 1: Spear was also the head of War Production UM and

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Speaker 1: the head, as a result of that, the head of

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Speaker 1: the Nazi like slave labor program. He was. He was

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Speaker 1: the one organizing where the slaves were going to make

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Speaker 1: Nazi war production possible. Committed a lot of crimes against

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Speaker 1: humanity that all got whitewashed and covered up because we

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Speaker 1: decided we wanted Albert Spear's help planning our industrial economy

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Speaker 1: in order to help fight the Soviets really hard. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: great guy, Albert Spier. Um, I'm assuming. In nineteen forty seven,

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Speaker 1: the Allied governments began a series of war crimes trials

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Speaker 1: for twenty four directors and senior employees of IG Farban.

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Speaker 1: Dr Ambrose was one of those men. He was sentenced

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Speaker 1: to eight years in prison from mass murder and slavery,

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Speaker 1: which seems light to me. I don't know, like eight

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Speaker 1: years for mass murder and slavery kind of seems like

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Speaker 1: maybe not enough, Like like I think I know people

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Speaker 1: who got busted with Pott who did more than eight years,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like slavery is a worse crime. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I'm back seat Nuremberg in here. Um, you're no,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely that that that's like, you know, we could

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Speaker 1: use him in five and get down four. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: he was one of thirteen IG farbanmen who were convicted,

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Speaker 1: and by nineteen fifty one he was released from prison

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Speaker 1: like four years early. Uh. He was the beneficiary of

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Speaker 1: a clemency grant so he could contribute to a build

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Speaker 1: up of European industry in order to oppose the USSR,

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Speaker 1: and I want to quote from a write up about

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Speaker 1: this by the International Oncology Networks magazine, quote there are

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Speaker 1: Recruitment of these experts was sanctioned by the US Joint

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Speaker 1: Chiefs of Staff, who approved the systematic exploitation of scientific

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Speaker 1: and technical knowledge developed in Nazi Germany in a classified

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Speaker 1: memorandum titled Exploitation of German Scientists and Science and Technology

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Speaker 1: in the United States. They described these men as chosen

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Speaker 1: rare minds whose continuing intellectual productivity we which wished to use.

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Speaker 1: And while the Soviet Union also worked hard in acquiring

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Speaker 1: German expertise with the emerging Cold War, US Joint Chiefs

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Speaker 1: of Staff supported every effort designed to guarantee that intellectual

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Speaker 1: spoils were not to fall into Soviet hands. Hence, after

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Speaker 1: defeating Nazi Germany in nineteen forty five Operation Overcast later

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Speaker 1: renamed Operation paper Clip, more than sixteen hundred Nazi Germans

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Speaker 1: were secretly recruited to develop armaments at a feverish and

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Speaker 1: paranoid pace that came to define the Cold War. In addition,

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Speaker 1: America sent hundreds of experts to Germany to guide the

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Speaker 1: transfer of scientific and technical knowledge back to the United States.

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Speaker 1: And with this transfer of scientific and technical knowledge, a

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Speaker 1: large number of chosen Nazi scientists migrated to the United States. Others, however,

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Speaker 1: remained in Germany, where they were ultimately recruited by German companies.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes, um, most of us, when we fail,

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Speaker 1: we actually you know, fail uh, and we have to

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Speaker 1: suffer the consequences. Others others just fail up. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like Nazis man they really knew how to fail up,

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Speaker 1: and other people helped them. Yeah. I think the best

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Speaker 1: known example of this was vern von Brown, who was

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Speaker 1: probably the single man most responsible for the the US

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Speaker 1: moon landing. UM. He was the guy who designed our rockets.

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Speaker 1: He was the head of like a bunch of ship

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Speaker 1: at Nasa UM. He also designed the V two rockets

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Speaker 1: that were fired blindly at civilian targets in the uk.

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Speaker 1: UM real piece of ship used slave labor to make

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Speaker 1: a lot of rockets under the Germans. There is a

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Speaker 1: great Verner von Brown's song against him that includes the

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Speaker 1: line when the missiles go up, who knows where they

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Speaker 1: come down? That's not my department, says Verner von Brown,

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Speaker 1: good little song, real piece of shit. So this is

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Speaker 1: you know what it reminds me of, Like there's a

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Speaker 1: song that you learn in grade school called like dirt

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Speaker 1: made my lunch. Dirt made my lunch. Thank you Dirt.

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Speaker 1: Thanks a bunch for my salad. I'm a sandwich and

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Speaker 1: my milk my lunch. Thank Anyway, the point is I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's like Nazis made my launch. Nazis made

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Speaker 1: my launch. Thank you Nazis. You're fucking the worst. But

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Speaker 1: a bunch of technology. I mean, this is you know what.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry not to make this like super like politicize this,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like you kind of see and I'm

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Speaker 1: not drawing a one to one here, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: get a lot of blowback for this, but you can

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Speaker 1: edit this out. No, But I feel like when you

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Speaker 1: talk about, you know, opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people will be like, Israeli's have you know,

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Speaker 1: Israeli technology has done a lot and you're like, so,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like these things are like

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Speaker 1: sort of unrelated um and have cool technology and not

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Speaker 1: an ethnic cleansing exactly exactly. Like, presumably those scientists could

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Speaker 1: be doing the same work in a state that was not,

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Speaker 1: i don't know, allowing armed settlers to gun down unarmed Palestinians.

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Speaker 1: It was one example, but there's a lot of examples.

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Speaker 1: For example, you could have a guy making sweet ass

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Speaker 1: rockets and not using giant slave labor camps in order

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Speaker 1: to build them. All of these things are possible. It's

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Speaker 1: like the United States could have landed a man on

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Speaker 1: the moon without rehabilitating a Nazi war criminal. Um. All

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Speaker 1: sorts of things are possible without doing the terrible things

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Speaker 1: that come with them. We just choose to do the

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Speaker 1: terrible things because it's easier and we're lazy. But also, like,

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Speaker 1: what about locking them up If they have like great

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Speaker 1: like if they have incredible um skill and and and knowledge,

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Speaker 1: you can still lock them up. They can work from prison,

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Speaker 1: they can work from there. They'll produce the blueprints, you know,

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Speaker 1: but they are under like they are not free. Was

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Speaker 1: that never explored? No? No, no, no, no, you want

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Speaker 1: them you want to keep them happy. Um, I don't

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Speaker 1: know they I think they should have all been shot

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Speaker 1: is kind of my attitude. I'm a big cow puittal

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Speaker 1: punishment for members of the Third Reich kind of guy

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Speaker 1: um So. The most enthusiastic of the of German companies

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Speaker 1: when it came to hiring old Nazi war criminals was Grunental. Now,

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Speaker 1: when the International Criminal Court went after I. G. Farbanu,

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Speaker 1: Grunental was just a baby company. It had been formed

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty six, which technically gave it a clean

403
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: record Visa v. Nazis. Right the war is over, West

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00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 1: Germany becomes a thing. Grunental is started and it was

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Speaker 1: a spin off company from an existing business run by

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Speaker 1: the Vertz family for the last hundred or so years.

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Speaker 1: The Vertices are your standard German pre war capitalist aristocracy.

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Speaker 1: Their ancestor Andreas Verts founded the family firm in the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Initially is a soap and perfume business, it

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Speaker 1: quickly became prominent, coming to dominate the local economy of Akin,

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Speaker 1: a prosperous city in the North Rhine. Though the Wortzes

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Speaker 1: were Catholic, they recognized Hitler for what he was, which

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Speaker 1: is good for business. The family patriarchs joined the evil blood.

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Speaker 1: There's no no that he was going to make him

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Speaker 1: a lot of money, and he did yes, So they

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Speaker 1: joined the party right away and they benefit right away.

417
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Speaker 1: So it's important to understand the Nazis were just gangsters,

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Speaker 1: and they offered bribes to the German capital holding class

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Speaker 1: in exchange for their support. A lot of these bribes

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Speaker 1: were dispensed via a process called Ariyanization, in which Jewish

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Speaker 1: owned businesses were stolen by the government and handed over

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Speaker 1: to Nazis. The Vertz family were given to competing perfume companies,

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Speaker 1: one of which made the Tobacc perfume range that is

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Speaker 1: still sold by the words firm today. So this company

425
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Speaker 1: is given a Stoleish, stolen Jewish perfume business, and in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty one that that same family still

427
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: owns that perfume range and profits from it. Um It's

428
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: good ship. When the Nazis broke up by g Farban,

429
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 1: the Vertices saw opportunity. Since making perfume and making various

430
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: medicines use a lot of the same equipment, spinning off

431
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: into a pharmaceutical company made sense. It also made sense

432
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: to make use of the huge number of recently freed

433
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: are never punished at all Nazis scientists who are now

434
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: out of work in nt I hope this doesn't end

435
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: in some kind of the Sephora line being problematic because

436
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: you know it's on the label, like it's cruelty free.

437
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: When you say that you don't perform any any tests

438
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: on rabbits, I assume you also mean that this did

439
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: not descend from a line of Nazi cosmetologists. I would

440
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: say that cruelty free should should also include was never

441
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: stolen by the Nazis and handed over to someone else. Yeah,

442
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: I think that does count somewhere on the label. But anyway,

443
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: continue this business was never owned by Nazis, Robert, You

444
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: know what, Yeah, we would know what other businesses are

445
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 1: not owned by Nazis unless it's a Volkswagen, unless it's

446
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: a Volkswagen AD or like a BMW AD or a

447
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: Mercedes AD or a Bear AD or an AD. For

448
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: most of them, I mean not owned by Nazis but

449
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: directly supporting the Nazis, like the Shell for example. Oh yeah, IBM,

450
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: for sure, for goddamn sure, yes, absolutely, But unless it's

451
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: any of those companies, definitely guaranteed not ever owned by Nazis,

452
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: probably unless it's one like a company that's owned by

453
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 1: one of those large like investment firms that had a

454
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: lot of investments in Nazi Germany, which is pretty likely. Um,

455
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: but you know, maybe not. Anyway, Ads, we're back. So

456
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: in one Grunental hired Dr Ambrose, our friend who developed

457
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: Sarah nerve gas and helped organize the death factories at Auschwitz.

458
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: Years four years in prison reign, Yeah he did. He

459
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: did his time. You know, that's just a year for

460
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: every other guy he worked on the Sarah nerve gas

461
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: project with. So they didn't mind that he'd worked at Auschwitz,

462
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: and they were very impressed by his other professional credential.

463
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: He quickly became chairman of the company's advisory committee. It's

464
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: a good guy to have advising your company. The dude

465
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: who advised the SS on how to make a death factory.

466
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: Dr Ambrose was quickly joined by a number of other

467
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: old party comrades. And I'm gonna quote from the book

468
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: Silent Shock by Michael magazinek quote. Dr Hinz Baumcotter was

469
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: a notorious s S doctor at the Saxon Housen concentration

470
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: camp outside Berlin. In addition to overseeing executions and selecting

471
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: prisoners for the gas chamber, he conducted experiments with injections, explosives,

472
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: and chemicals. One such experiment saw prisoners strapped down and

473
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: burned with phosphorus so that Baumcotter could test an experimental salve.

474
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: Baumcotter was arrested after the war, charged with murder, and

475
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: tried by the Soviets in Berlin in nineteen forty seven.

476
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: He was convicted after a short trial, not a surprising

477
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: outcome given his appalling record and the efficient Soviet approach

478
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: to war crimes justice. Baumcotter was sentenced to life imprisonment,

479
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: but served only eight years before the Soviets returned him

480
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 1: to Germany. The exact point at which Grunenthal employed him

481
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: is unclear, but Baumcotter was certainly working as a salesman

482
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: in Grunenthal's Mounster office in nineteen sixty and sixty one.

483
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: By this time he was facing another round of war

484
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: crimes charges in a German court. In nineteen sixty two,

485
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: after a trial in Munster, Balumcotter was convicted of being

486
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: an accessory to murder and of several and of depraved indifference,

487
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: and sentenced once more to eight years jail, the time

488
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: he had already served in the Soviet another eight years.

489
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: That not not really, because the time he already served

490
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: in the USSR was taken into account and so he

491
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: never went to jail again. He got time served for gitticide.

492
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: It's good ship. No. I once thought that American police

493
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: officers got off with murder very easily, and uh, turns

494
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: out Nazi war criminals not nearly as easy as Nazis. Yeah,

495
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: what's really fun is looking at how many erosts group

496
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: and they were, those are the guys who played skeet

497
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: shooting with literal babies, and how many of them survived

498
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: the war, and how many of the ones that survived

499
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: the war suffered any kind of legal penalties at all.

500
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: As a spoiler, not most of them. Now, by which

501
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: I mean thousands of them lived the rest of their

502
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: lives is free minutes. So this is this is the okay,

503
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: you believe in capital punishment for Nazis, and I'm with you,

504
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: but I feel as though I'm coming off of I

505
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: just watched the Epstein docs on Netflix. Anyway, another another bastard,

506
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: and I'm like, death is way too easy, Like this

507
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: is unfair. Death is unfair if you're that big of

508
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: a piece of ship. There's nothing fair if you're Here's

509
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: why I think just immediate execution. Democracy means some right

510
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: wing ship holes are always going to get elected, and

511
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: they are always going to want to use the Nazis

512
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: rather than punish them, which is you get a lot

513
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: of these guys getting nasty punishments and then get pardoned

514
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: a couple of years later. So I think you just

515
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: shoot them immediately when everybody's piste off. We don't have

516
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: to like, yeah, we don't have to see all their

517
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: paintings George W. Bush and hear his opinions on Afghanistan exactly.

518
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel the same about George W. Bush.

519
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: But that's the story for another episode that Robert and

520
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: I are on the same page here. Okay, let's keep going.

521
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: Before you know, the cops are at my door. So

522
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,959
Speaker 1: I know you're thinking, wow, to Nazi war criminals, one

523
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: of whom was on war crimes trials while working as

524
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: a salesman for Grunenthal. That's a lot of Nazis at

525
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: the company. But we're just getting started. Martin Staimler was

526
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 1: another Grunental higher as a prominent pathologist during the Third Reich.

527
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: He wrote articles in published studies proving the racial superior

528
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: superiority of the German race. He was a popular proponent

529
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: of the Nazi racial hygiene program, which ultimately resulted in

530
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. After Germany invaded Poland, he advised the SS

531
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: on their population policy, which means it was his job

532
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: to decide which chunks of Polish society to exterminate. Grunenthal

533
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: put Martin Staimler in charge of their pathology department from

534
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty to nineteen seventy four. Grunental also hired Hans

535
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: Burger Prince, who worked with Hitler's personal doctor Carl Brandt.

536
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: Now if you're a Nazi, now where Brandt was the

537
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: Hitler doctor who didn't give him a lot of methamphetamine.

538
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: He wound up as the lead defend for the doctor's

539
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: trial at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, and he was

540
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: executed for his involvement in medical experiments on prisoners and civilians.

541
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: Burger Prinz escaped any punishment for his role in working

542
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: with Dr Brandt, and he went on to defend the

543
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: Grunental company as an expert witness in court. The most

544
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: famous Nazi hire of the Grunenthal Company was Dr Ernst

545
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: Gunter Schenk. You can see him in the movie Downfall.

546
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: Played by Christian Burkele, which means he was in the

547
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: bunker with Hitler at the very end. Shank was the

548
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 1: only member of Grunental who was a member of the

549
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: s S. Several of them advised the s S. Shank

550
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: was in the s s UH and he was in

551
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: fact the official SS nutritional inspector. During the war, he

552
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: developed an experimental protein sausage that was tested on three

553
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy concentration camp prisoners, killing dozens of them.

554
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: Because apparently Shank was pretty bad at making sausage. He

555
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: was actually captured by the Soviets and managed to survive

556
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: ten years in their prisons. When he returned to West Germany,

557
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: he was barred from working again as a doctor, but

558
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: Grunental didn't care. They hired him any way. And then

559
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: there's I need, I need, I need to learn more

560
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: about the sausage. Is it like I feel like this

561
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: is some hannibal shit, you know, where it's like actually

562
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: made out of their loved one's brains and they're like

563
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: eat it, you know, and they're like, oh, I think

564
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: it's more bored. They were just trying to like make

565
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: better military rations out of like synthetic ship. I don't

566
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: know as much about the sausage as I should, but

567
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: it was bad sausage, rubber and twin babies. Yeah, I

568
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: get it. We've all been We've all had a bad sausage,

569
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: but this one sounds like it was designed ironically. I've

570
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: never had a bad sausage in Germany. Now other parts

571
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: of the world that's been a different case. So uh.

572
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: And then there's the guy who's going to be the

573
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: main Nazi for our story today. Heinrich Muchter. Here's Newsweek quote.

574
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: During the war, his expertise had been anti typhus work.

575
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: Outbreaks of the disease in the army made finding a

576
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: vaccination a high priority. Because typhus cultures cannot live outside

577
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: a body, it was kept alive by injecting it into prisoners.

578
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: Once injected with the disease, the prisoners could then be

579
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: used to try out the vaccines to see if they worked.

580
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: And Muchter's experiments were purportedly carried out in Auschwitz, buken

581
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: Vald and Grodno, as well as at Krakau. Now Buchenwald

582
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: was the main experimental center from Mukters typhus tests. One

583
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: particular part of the camp. Block forty six was used

584
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: by Nazi scientists to test treatments for not just typhus,

585
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: but yellow fever, smallpox, cholera, and diphtheria. One Nuremberg witness

586
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: recalled dreadful horror at the thought of Block forty six.

587
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,959
Speaker 1: Every person who quote went to Block forty six as

588
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: an experimental person did not only have to expect death

589
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: and under certain circumstances, a very long, drawn out, in

590
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: frightful death, but also torture and the complete removal of

591
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: the last remnants of personal freedom. This is what I'm

592
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: saying about capital punishment for Nazis. It is a little

593
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: bit too easy, but I hear you. We need like

594
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: what would better things to have done to them? But

595
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: I I'm just a fan of getting it done so

596
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: because again, one of the things here, like and people

597
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: who are big fans of the Soviet Union will point

598
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: out rightfully that the Soviet Union killed a lot more

599
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: Nazis who were captured, but most of the ones they

600
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: killed were like normal soldiers who they starved to death. Again,

601
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: you're going to be a piece of ship, be a talented,

602
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: be a prominent piece of ship, because you're so prominent

603
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: that Yeah, you're uncancellable, unkillable, because we have we have

604
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: so far in the story two prisoners who did time

605
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: and Soviet prisons, two doctors and then got out and

606
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: went back to the West and did horrible things. Um,

607
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: which I mean guy is this guy? Yeah? Now, all

608
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: prisoners who were part of Muktar's typhus tests were given

609
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: a particularly virulent strain of the of the disease of typhus.

610
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: Half were injected with an experimental treatment and the other

611
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: half were given no treatment at all. Quote, there were

612
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: cases of raving madness, delirium. People would refuse to eat,

613
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: and a large percentage of them would die. Those who

614
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: experienced the disease in a milder form, perhaps because of theirs,

615
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: because their constitutions were stronger, or because the vaccine was effective,

616
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: were forced continuously to observe the death struggles of others.

617
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: So that's what muktr does. He was part of a

618
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: horrible engine of unfathomable human misery. But a keyword there

619
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: is part. He wasn't a big face like Mingola. He

620
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: wasn't the guy directly killing a bunch of people. He

621
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: was one of a number of doctors organizing this horrific

622
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: set of trials, and as a result, he got off

623
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: nearly scott free. Polish authorities were only able to effectively

624
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: charge him with mistreating prisoners and stealing scientific equivalent, and

625
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: he was able to flee back to Germany across the

626
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: Iron Curtain before he could face any kind of consequence

627
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: for his work, and in nineteen forty six he became

628
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: one of Grunental's first employees. Now, kind of by default,

629
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: a lot of German companies in the postwar era wound

630
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: up hiring former Nazis. It was kind of unavoidable in

631
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: many cases because an awful lot of people joined the party,

632
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: but Grunental was different. On time out, does anyone say

633
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: time out? This is me saying to call him time

634
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 1: out on Robert Evans, did he discover anything after torturing

635
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: that many people. I don't think they figured out a

636
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: typhus vaccine. Um, there we go. Yeah. I think German

637
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: soldiers were still dyana typhus by the end of the war. Um.

638
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: Now I mean not that it's any constellation. I guess

639
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: if I or any of my relatives were in that

640
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: like were performed on like rabbits in cages and injected

641
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: with all kinds of horrible things. I feel like the

642
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: last thing I would want is for then did go

643
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: on and save German soldiers lives. I'd be like, no, no,

644
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 1: no, no no, I don't want I don't want this help

645
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: with advancements to come out of this ship at all. Well,

646
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: I I guess the good news is that it did

647
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: not work at all, because the first typhus vaccine was

648
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 1: developed in the seventies there, so, uh, this did not work,

649
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: but they didn't figure some other ship out We're going

650
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: to talk about in a little bit. By the way,

651
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: block forty six thirty six or forty six block forty

652
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: six is like what every covid anti vaxer thinks that, like, yes,

653
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: the vaccine is doing lenin. Have you sort of muck

654
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: You're like, I think it's very different. It is. It

655
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: is very different, especially since a lot of anyway, we

656
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: don't need to talk about how other fringe sort of

657
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: spiritual beliefs wind up dovetailing in the Nazism today. We

658
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: talked about that a lot anyway, So again, a lot

659
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: of German companies higher former Nazis, and hey, I should

660
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: note if you're a former Nazi in this period. It

661
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: obviously it means you made a horrible moral compromise. It

662
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you were a part of the of the

663
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: direct part of the engineering of extermination. A lot of

664
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 1: people just joined it to like get a promotion at

665
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: like whatever bullshit gig they did in like the local government,

666
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: or because they were a teacher or something. Not a

667
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: good thing, but not the same as organizing a series

668
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: of tortures, tortures medical experiments at Auschwitz Um. So obviously

669
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: you were going to have a lot of former Nazis

670
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: being hired in seven because there's millions of them. But

671
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: Grunin Tall was different. Not only did Grunen Tal higher

672
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: way more former Nazis than any other pharmaceutical company, but

673
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: they had a weird tendency to hire former Nazi who

674
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: had been directly involved with forced labor and concentration camps.

675
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: One German historian, looking at a short list of Grunental

676
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: staff in the nineteen sixties, said, it's absolutely astonishing that

677
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: a small company should have such a concentration of convicted

678
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: war criminals on its staff. Unusual even by the standards

679
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: of post war Germany. So what German historian is like

680
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: by the standards of everyone else in Germany, these guys

681
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: hired a lot of fucking war criminals, unprecedented amounts. Grunental

682
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 1: is like the worst in that in that field. Now,

683
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: with their staff of war criminals in place, Grunental set

684
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: to the important business of making medicine. One of their

685
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: first products was a penicillin derivative, which proved to be

686
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: massively toxic and was quickly pulled. They also marketed in

687
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: tuberculosis here that was completely ineffective. There were some eventual successes,

688
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: and eventually they become get rich off of pain killers.

689
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: But as the nineteen fifties hit, Grunental was still on

690
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: the lookout for a big product hit, something that can

691
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: make a lot of money. On all of these patients

692
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: say keep on dying? What what are we doing wrong?

693
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: Like like is it the staff of love to murder?

694
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of accent I'm doing it?

695
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: It started out German. I don't know what it is anymore.

696
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: Say Matt does a better accent. He does, he does

697
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: a very good accent. But like, like you might look

698
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: at your people. You just hired, bro, They who love

699
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: to watch death and create death and you're trying to

700
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: make what medicine, vaccines something that's not right. Yeah, it's

701
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: it's it's it's. Uh. Yeah. They're not great at the start,

702
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: but they're looking for their big hit, and they decide

703
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: that synthetic drugs are probably the wave of the future.

704
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: Dr Heinrich Muchter put two of his staff doctors on

705
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: the task of developing new synthetic antibiotics. Now, one of

706
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: these guys, Dr Wilhelm Koon's, heated a commercially available chemical

707
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: as part of his experimentation and created a brand new

708
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: substance in fatalital glutamic acid imide. It would soon become

709
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: better known by the name philidamide. You heard a plid mind? No,

710
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: what is that? Oh no, it's much worse than that.

711
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: A number of people will be going ah ship at

712
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 1: this pointde is very famous. It's in It's in Billy

713
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: Joel's We Didn't Start the Fire, among other things. Real famous.

714
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Dr start the fire. It started something now. Dr Kun's

715
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: partner is said to have believed the new compound was

716
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: a structural analog or a near copy of the kind

717
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: of barbiturous that were commonly sold as sleeping pills based

718
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: on this logic, the story goes, Grunental decided to carry

719
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 1: out tests on rats to determine if the litamide might

720
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 1: be something the company could market as a sleeping aid. Now,

721
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: I say the story goes because this part is heavily debated.

722
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: You may notice that it's kind of weird that doctors

723
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: trying to make a new antibiotic would make a synthetic,

724
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: barbituous analog and then immediately try to test it as

725
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: a sleeping pill. Stuff like this does happen in medical development.

726
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: Viagra started as like a heart medication, but it also

727
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: does stuff that could be useful as a heart medication.

728
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: It's a blood thinner um. But there are doctors who

729
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 1: will note that it does really seem like phillidamide started

730
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: as a result of antibiotic research, and that that's a

731
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: weird claim to make. There are other suspicious things about

732
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: the drugs origin. That first rat study on palidomide, the

733
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: first study that Grudentald does on palidamide when they find

734
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: it was based around what's called a jiggle cage, which

735
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 1: is a special cage that tries to measure the amount

736
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 1: of movement and drugged or undrugged rats to determine whether

737
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: or not a substance sedates them. Basically, you you're giving

738
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: them the drug and then you're shaking a cage and

739
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: like the amount that they get agitated is like okay

740
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: that either this sedative is working and they don't notice

741
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: it or not. Right, jiggle cage sounds like a strip club,

742
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 1: it does. The jiggle cage is a great strip club name.

743
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 1: Actually yeah, um, Now, this particular study is very odd.

744
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: One pediatrician who analyzed it, Dr widukind Lynn, described the

745
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: experiment as having so little scientific value that it should

746
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: not have been published. Quote. The author's claimed to have

747
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: shown a sleep inducing effect, though no sleep was observed.

748
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: Other pharmaceutical companies later tried and failed to replicate the

749
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 1: tomide sedative property on animals, and they failed. Some suspect

750
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: the rats study was fabricated in order to provide clean

751
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: scientific evidence that the li might had promise as a sedative.

752
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: But it is an extremely effective sedative for human beings.

753
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: It just doesn't sedate rats. So why is it a

754
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: big deal that this rat study showed it worked as

755
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 1: a sedative in rats when it doesn't. If it does

756
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: work as a sedative in human beings, what is the

757
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: issue here, Well, the issue is that a lot of

758
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: people suspect Dr Mukter and Grunental faked the rat study

759
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: data because they already knew before Grudental was founded, that

760
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: the litamide was an effective sedative. They just couldn't say why.

761
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: They knew because the litamide had been initially developed during

762
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: the Nazi era via experiments on concentration camp inmates. So

763
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: they tested it on people, but they couldn't say that,

764
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: so they needed to fabricate an animal study to be like,

765
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: now we should test this on humans. Look, it puts

766
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,919
Speaker 1: rats to sleep. You can't say the cage jiggled a lot.

767
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: The humans, I mean rats were trying to it out,

768
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: I mean having a good sleeping sleep sleeping. Now, this

769
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: is debated still, this is not a guarantee that had

770
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: happened this way. There's a lot of argument as to

771
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 1: whether or not the litamides started as a Nazi project.

772
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: And before I read what I'm about to read, you

773
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: should know that the jury is still out as to

774
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: the origins of the litamide. That said, I'm now going

775
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: to quote up from quote from a write up in

776
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: by onco Zine, the magazine of the International Oncology Network

777
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: as part of the Physician's Weekly Magazine network. Quote in

778
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: his book Hitler's Laboratories, the Argentinian writer Carlos Dinnapoli states

779
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: that he has discovered documents dated November nineteen forty four

780
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: from I G. Farben which referred to a chemical agent

781
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: with the same chemical formula as the litamide. According to DiNapoli,

782
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: I G. Farban's director, Fritz Fritz Termier, sent a memo

783
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: to Carl Brandt, the s S general who ran Hitler's

784
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: ethan Asia program, explaining that a drug with number four

785
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: five eight nine with the same characteristics as the litamide,

786
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: had been tested and was ready for use. According to

787
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: documents discovered after or World War Two, Mukta and Ambrose,

788
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: working worked under the supervision of Joseph Mangola, referred to

789
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: compound four five eight nine being tested on female prisoners

790
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: in Auschwitz. In these Auschwitz files, researchers discovered correspondence between

791
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: the camp commander and Bear liver clusim part of I G. Farban.

792
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 1: The correspondence dealt with the sale of one and fifty

793
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: female prisoners for experimental uses with a view to the

794
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: planned experiments of a new sleep inducing drug. We would

795
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: appreciate it if you could place a number of prisoners

796
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: at our disposal. So there's real, real compelling evidence that

797
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: the litamide was first experimented during the war on female

798
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: slaves as a sleeping pill, and that doctor Muktr and

799
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 1: dr Ambrose were a part of those tests, working under

800
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: Joseph Mangola. Why were they women anything? That's like swomen

801
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: who then go to sleep around men, especially Nazis, do

802
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: don't like any of that. I mean, there was a

803
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: decent amount of rape in these places. I think it

804
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: might also have there's also a fact of like men

805
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: are potentially more dangerous. Uh to keep his prisoners, you

806
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: might want to just kill them in immediately or you're

807
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: you're working them in. It's a labor camp, so you

808
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: have the men doing physical labor, the women. You either

809
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: kill them or you use their bodies for experiments. And

810
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: that was up to dipshit number nine or whatever. Yeah, Mangla,

811
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean all of the Mangola, Ambrose, um uh Muktar

812
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: are probably all taking turns doing this. It's a thing

813
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: doctors do, like, it's doctors making the selections in a

814
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: lot of cases. Again, the complicity of physicians in the

815
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: third Reich is like an actually incredibly important story because

816
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: most of them just like agree to be part of

817
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: the machinery of death. It's a real problem in medical

818
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: ethics now. So there's a lot of reasons to believe. Like, obviously,

819
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: if you're grown and tall, you don't want to say,

820
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 1: we know this is a great sedative because the doctors

821
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: we hired tested it on enslaved Jewish women and at Auschwitz.

822
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: You don't want to be saying that that's not a

823
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: good not a good advertising campaign. Um, So you want

824
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: to and say, oh, it works on rats, let's test

825
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: it on humans for totally the first time. This is

826
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: the first time it's ever been tried on people. Um Uh.

827
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: Now there's other reasons to doubt Grunenthal's official story about

828
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: the development of the litamide. For one thing, their initial

829
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: patent application in nineteen fifty four mentioned that the drug

830
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: had already been tested on humans before official tests began.

831
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: Historical documents show that the company purchased the trade name

832
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: that the litamide was sold under, Countergan, and presumably the

833
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: drug itself, from Santa Fie, a French pharmaceutical company that

834
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: was controlled by the Nazis during World War Two. Quote

835
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: Grunenthal also claimed to have done multiple independent animal experiments

836
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: showing absolutely no mutagenic effects and no birth abnormalities. However,

837
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 1: in the late nineteen sixties, Grunenthal's documents regarding the history

838
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: and development of phototamide were subpoenaed for the civil actions

839
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: against the company. It was reported that virtually all documents

840
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: that showed where and when animal research as well as

841
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: clinical studies on humans were conducted, had been lost. So

842
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons to this fact that this was

843
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: developed in concentration camps uh and then its origin was hidden.

844
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 1: But that might not be the worst part of the litamide,

845
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: which we're about to get to the worst part of

846
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: the Yeah, anyway, it's not bad enough. I'm just like,

847
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 1: I'm not triggered. And yet you know, we started off with,

848
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: you know, killing babies, and I was kind of triggered,

849
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: and I designed, don't I feel like you need to

850
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: level up? Yeah, we're we're, we'll, we'll, we'll get the trigger.

851
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: It's important to know, though, that there's a really good

852
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,439
Speaker 1: chance that Dr Mukt, who worked under Joseph Mangela, had

853
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: tested this drug initially in concentration camps, and once he

854
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: got grun in Tal to start testing the drug for

855
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: widespread approval, he also had a vested interest in making

856
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: sure it got approved and sold. Part of Dr Mukt's

857
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: agreement with the company gave him a share in the

858
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: profits of every drug Soul that he helped to develop.

859
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: Whatever the truth of its origin, Grunental decided the litamide

860
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: held a lot of promise as an alternative to barbiturates.

861
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: And barbiturates are your traditional sleeping pills in this era,

862
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: and they're really bad. Um, not that they don't have

863
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: any like they do obviously they have medical uses, but

864
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: they can kill your ass. Like people die from sleeping

865
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: pills all the time, especially in this period. Like we've

866
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: gotten a bit better at it now, but like barbiturates

867
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 1: number one can be very addictive and again can fucking

868
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: kill you. So and that's starting to be known in

869
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: the fifties and early sixties that like, oh there's some

870
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: real downsides to these sleeping pills. And so if you

871
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: can make a sleeping pill that can't kill people, that's

872
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: you make a funkload of money off that ship. And

873
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: Dr Muktor basically was convinced green and tall, hey we

874
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: can sell sleeping pills that don't have dangerous side effects.

875
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: And to make the which is a big order for

876
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: a Nazi to be like, hey, Nazis to try not

877
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,919
Speaker 1: to kill people. They're like I want to and like no, no,

878
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: just just pull back on that almost kill them, don't

879
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: kill them. Don't worry. He kills a lot more people.

880
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: So to make the case that philidamide was safe, Dr

881
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: Muktor's team fed increasingly absurd amounts of philidamide to a

882
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: variety of animals and an attempt to establish it's l

883
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: D fifty. And the l D fifty is the dose

884
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: at which a drug will kill fifty percent of test animals. Right,

885
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: it's generally just referred to as like, this is the

886
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: potential fatal dose of a drug. Didn't know? That? Very

887
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 1: cruel to keep you, I mean, you need to know it, right,

888
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: it is. It's a horrible thing. But like you have

889
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: to know what is a lethal dose of a substance

890
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: you're giving people, You know, you do need to have

891
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 1: an idea, no, of course, but but fifty of them

892
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: or at least or half of at least yeah, because

893
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: obviously everyone like one person can take a dose of

894
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: cyanide that will kill them, and another person, like with

895
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 1: medical treatment, could survive. There's never with this kind of ship.

896
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: It's like the same thing. Some people get bitten by

897
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: rattlesnakes and recover. Some people die very quickly for a

898
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: variety of reasons. Um. Now, so yeah, Grunenthal testers try

899
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: to find an LD fifty for the litamite and they say,

900
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: we can't find it. It's impossible to kill animals with

901
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: this stuff. There's a lot of debate as to whether

902
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: or not those studies were valid, but that's what they say.

903
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 1: So we I just we really need humans. I mean

904
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: these rats and rabbits they're great, but you don't be

905
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: really great humans. Well, they're more saying we can't kill

906
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: animals with this, so people can take this and they

907
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: won't o d Yeah. Yeah, there's no way to overdose

908
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: on thalidomide, so we can sell it as like you

909
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: can't die on this stuff, like all these other people

910
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: are dying on barbiturates. So Gruen and tal, when they've

911
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: got this kind of establishment for how they're going to

912
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: market thalidomide, proceeds to what was the second round of

913
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: human trials, probably assuming they've done human trials and concentration

914
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: camp inmates, and this round of human studies was comparatively

915
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: a lot more ethical, but it was still very problematic,

916
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: perhaps due to the fact that Grunental's research division was

917
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: run by Nazis. In Bone, one doctor treated forty children,

918
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: many of whom were brain damaged, with huge doses of

919
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: thalidomide over extended periods of time. Some kids received twenty

920
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: times that recommended dose. None of the children's parents were

921
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: informed of the study. The test showed that the liidamide

922
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: was a very effective sedative, and a by effective, I

923
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: mean it killed two babies. One of the babies had

924
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: a congenital heart defect and one a three month old,

925
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: suffered heart failure. In addition, one other child went to

926
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 1: rarely blind. The doctor conducting this study decided these side

927
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: effects had nothing to do with the litamide and gave

928
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: an endorsement to Greenenthal. But it was safe. That doesn't

929
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: seem like good science to me, But I'm not a doctor.

930
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: It seems like killing two out of forty children is

931
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: actually a pretty high death rate for a pill. But

932
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: I don't know, is it not. It's not half though

933
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: it is not half so it's safe. I guess it's okay.

934
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: There were, of course, a lot of positive tests of

935
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 1: the drugs. A number of testers, particularly adults it was

936
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: tested on, did rave about its efficacy as a sleep aid.

937
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: It does. It's an effective like sedative, and the fact

938
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: that it had no hangover or other side effects. Some

939
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: people say this, and a number of doctors back it up,

940
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: and in adults it did seem to be pretty effective.

941
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: But as this segment from the book's Silent Shock makes clear,

942
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: there were problems from the beginning. One doctor reported that

943
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: he had dropped the drug because of absolute intolerability. Among

944
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: the side effects he noted was site slight parashesia or

945
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: tingling or burning sensation, often caused by nerve damage. Responding

946
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: to this report, Green and Tal's Heinrich Muchter conceded in

947
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: a letter on third April nineteen fifty six that the

948
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: litamide seemed a very strong sedative, which, if used in

949
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: high doses over a long period, could cause disturbance in

950
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 1: the nervous system. Such information was pushed under the rug

951
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: or explained away. Dr Muktar did such a good job

952
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: of manufacturing consent that other doctors in Grunental thought the

953
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: litamide was safe. Some of his own staff members tried it,

954
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: and one gave it to his pregnant wife. The fourth,

955
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: first of what would be tens of thousands of the

956
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: litamide babies, was born on Christmas Day nineteen fifty six

957
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: without ears. In early nineteen fifty seven, the drug went

958
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: on sale across Europe under the name countergan. Yeah, it

959
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: went on sale after babies were born without yours. One

960
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: baby could have been anything. Sometimes babies don't have ears. Look,

961
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: who's to say, Who's to say it's God? Yeah, it's

962
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: God's will or not Nazis will. But you know, either way,

963
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: let's put it on the market. Now you're saying also

964
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: that Moxer is getting us a percentage of everything. He

965
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 1: gets a cut baby. So the economic incentive totally not

966
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: a problem in the farma industry at all, to rush

967
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: things out the door. No, it was not a problem

968
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: then and it's not a problem now. So that vaccinated

969
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: countergan a k philidamide became a bestseller. It was helped

970
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: along by a recent string of deaths and life faltering

971
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: injuries caused by barbituous sleeping pills. Grun and Tal's marketing

972
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 1: campaign was based entirely around the fact that palidomide, unlike

973
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: those competing pills, was totally safe. It's soon spread across

974
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: the world. Michael mcgas nick rites it was this emphasis

975
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: on complete and unprecedented safety that allowed philidamide to prosper

976
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,839
Speaker 1: in a crowded marketplace. The full page ads for dist

977
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: of All, which was its name in Australia, placed by Distillers,

978
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: which was the company that sold it there. In the

979
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: Medical Journal of Australia at a time, a key information

980
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: source for doctors, illustrates the marketing line. A small child

981
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: is standing on a stool raiding the family medicine cabinet.

982
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: The child has opened an unidentified bottle and the reader

983
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: correctly surmises that an enormous, potentially fatal overdoses about to occur. Thankfully,

984
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: though the advertisement can offer a happier ending. If the

985
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: unnamed medicine is discival, there will be no tragedy. The

986
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,959
Speaker 1: child's life may depend on the safety of disc deval

987
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: and advertisement shouts. Consider the possible outcome in a case

988
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 1: such as this had the bottle contained conventional barbiturates. Doctors

989
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: were urged year by year the barbituous claim amounting toll

990
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: of childhood victims. Yet today it is simple to prescribe

991
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: a sedative and hypnotic that is both highly effective and

992
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: outstanding lee safe dis deval. The Littamite has been prescribed

993
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: for over three years in Great Britain, where the accidental

994
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: poisonings rate is notoriously high, but there is no case

995
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: on record in which even the gross overdoses with disc

996
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: devel has had harmful results. Put your mind at rest,

997
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: depend on the safety of disc devel. They're literally advertising

998
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: it by saying like, hey, your kids are gonna get

999
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 1: into your medicine cabinet. If they eat your barbituous sleeping pills,

1000
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: they're gonna die. But they can take as much the

1001
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: litamite as they want. Harmless. The litamite to kids like candy. Yeah,

1002
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: you know, why don't you put him next to the candy.

1003
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: Just put him next to Throw it in the candy bowl.

1004
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: It's the namie. It's safe. Look, put it. Stuff it

1005
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: in their teddy bears. They'll snuggle with it, numb num

1006
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: numb through the night. Put it in their bottle. Don't

1007
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: give him breast milk. Give him phillidamide. It's got everything

1008
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: a baby needs harmless. The litamide, so Grunental wasted no

1009
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: time in reaching out the thousands of doctors around the

1010
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: world in the first year or in nineteen fifty eight.

1011
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: So it comes, it goes on sale in nineteen nineteen

1012
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: fifty eight. They placed fifty ads in medical journals and

1013
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: sent out more than two thousand letters to doctors, plus

1014
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: fifty thousand mailers to doctors and pharmacists. By early nineteen

1015
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: sixty the litamide was the best selling sleeping pill in Germany.

1016
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: Mass use led to more problems. Of course, it became

1017
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: very clear that the litamide could cause a particularly horrible

1018
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: form of neuropathy or nerve pain. There was no treatment

1019
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: for it, and the damage could linger for months after

1020
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 1: the last dose of the litamide. Some people never recovered.

1021
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of Germans alone suffered long term nerve

1022
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: damage from litamide. This caused some doctors to suggest that

1023
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: the drugs should be pulled from the cell shelves. These

1024
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: were serious injuries, and no over the counter sleeping pill,

1025
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: which the litamide was, was worth that kind of risk.

1026
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: You can just buy this ship ship bro Yeah. In response,

1027
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: grin and tal did Nazi ship. They hired private detectives

1028
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: to spy on detractors, including doctors who complained about the drug.

1029
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: They bribed and threatened lawsuits to suppress bad press, and

1030
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: of course they lied like a cheap rug. At no

1031
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: point did they consider doing anything but going full speed

1032
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: ahead with sales. How many pens did they have to

1033
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: buy off these doctors and how many free pens? You know,

1034
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: lunches like we I've seen that today, but back then

1035
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: they are doing that. They're also there's a lot of

1036
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: doctors that get tricked into doing giving them set like

1037
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: giving their own families the litamide, and a lot of

1038
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: doctors who work at Grunental, a lot of junior researchers

1039
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: at Greenental give the litamide to their wives. And there's

1040
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: birth defects like it's actually Grunental employees suffer horribly as

1041
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 1: a result of the litamide. In nineteen fifty eight, a

1042
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: German doctor published a study on the linamite use among

1043
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: breastfeeding women. He concluded that it was safe for them

1044
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: to use, although this doctor was very clear that this

1045
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: was only for breastfeeding women, not pregnant women. As quote,

1046
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 1: it is my fundamental outlook never to give mothers to

1047
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: be sleeping drugs or sedatives. It is an old fact

1048
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: of experience in medicine that fundamentally mothers to be are

1049
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: not to be given barbituous opiates, sedatives, or hypnotics because

1050
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: these substances can't affect fetuses. So this doctor is just

1051
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: being like, hey, breastfeeding women sometimes of trouble sleeping. Is

1052
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: this safe for breastfeeding women? It is, And then he

1053
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: includes a long disclaimer saying not for pregnant women. Don't

1054
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 1: give this to pregnant women. Don't give any of these

1055
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: kind of ship to pregnant women. So especially like humans

1056
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: at small humans are still just dating. We're just like,

1057
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: that's all we're doing for like two years, is still

1058
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: just dating. He's I mean, I don't know that his

1059
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: research was wrong on that. I haven't heard that it

1060
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: was bad for breastfeeding kids. Um, it may not have

1061
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: crossed in that way, but that's it. He was very

1062
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: clear that this is just for breastfeeding women. Grun and

1063
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: Tall though, sees this study and they read it as

1064
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: a green light to sell pelidamite to pregnant women. In

1065
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: August of ninety said, now, even though he went out

1066
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: of his way to say, do not fucking giveness the

1067
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: pregnant women. In August of nineteen fifty eight, they send

1068
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: out extracts of the study which don't include that warning

1069
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: to more than forty German doctors, arguing that this proves

1070
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: the draw drug is quote harmless to mother and baby.

1071
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 1: So they cut out his warning and just throw in

1072
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: the parts of it that they can say. No, it's

1073
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 1: it's great for babies that are there, are great for fetuses.

1074
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: Give it to all the pregnant mothers you possibly can. Now,

1075
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: since many expectant mothers have difficulties sleeping, a lot of

1076
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: doctors started recommending this new pregnancy safe sleep aid to

1077
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: their patients. Tens of thousands of pregnant women and some

1078
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: forty six countries began taking palidomide. Meanwhile, evidence of the

1079
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: drugs danger continued to mount. In early nineteen fifty nine,

1080
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,879
Speaker 1: a doctor became pregnant and asked another doctor who worked

1081
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: for grun in Tall whether or not philidamite solidomite was

1082
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: safe for her to take. The other doctor answered, of

1083
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: course it is, and in January of nineteen sixty the

1084
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: pregnant doctor gave birth to a child with malformations of

1085
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,240
Speaker 1: the nose, lips, ears, hands, and feet from silent shock quote.

1086
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: Another doctor's wife had a baby with shortened arms after

1087
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: her husband was told by Grunental that the medication would

1088
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: be perfectly safe if taken during pregnancy. Later, the woman

1089
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,959
Speaker 1: pressed for a divorce, accusing her doctor husband of having

1090
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: been too gullible. In Munich, Mrs H fell pregnant in

1091
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: October nineteen sixty and her husband, a general physician, asked

1092
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: a Grunental sales rep if he could safely give his

1093
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: wife Counterorgan. Their response was boiler prate. Boiler Prate contergan

1094
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: is totally non dangerous and frequently prescribed, especially during pregnancies.

1095
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: In July nineteen sixty one, Mrs H gave birth to

1096
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: a severely malformed baby. Her general practitioner husband believed Counterorgan

1097
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: was to blame. When he spoke with a prosecutor in

1098
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, he said he had thought he made

1099
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 1: his suspicions clear to a Grunentall sales rep after the

1100
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: July nineteen sixty one birth, but could not recall the

1101
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: reps name. So they're getting reports about this and they're

1102
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: not doing anything about it. Don't take Nazi meds. Yeah,

1103
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,439
Speaker 1: I mean it is hard not to Germany in this period. Yeah,

1104
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: no exactly, but yeah, I mean it's it's interesting because

1105
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: it is all just like oh, many pharmaceutical companies are

1106
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: like operate in a very like um, yeah, we're just

1107
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: gonna push the hell out of this and you know,

1108
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: a few male formations, a few babies without ears, and

1109
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: we're gonna sweep down under the rug and keep on rolling.

1110
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: Some babies aren't going to come out right, that's just

1111
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: the way it goes. But you're gonna sleep like a

1112
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: malformed baby. I'm so sorry. Um you also, can we

1113
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: just say this is really resuscitating ambient in my mind? Ye? Like,

1114
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: so on you go on a rant about you know,

1115
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, without lungs, you know, like, yeah, this

1116
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: makes ambient just just come out swinging. Yeah, ambience sounds

1117
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: a lot better than philetamide, doesn't it. You know what

1118
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: is also better than phillidamite? God, the products and services

1119
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: that support this podcast better than philetamide, all of them.

1120
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: You know, it'll put you to sleep like a baby,

1121
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: these products and services, as opposed to having you be

1122
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: born without lungs like a paltamite baby, which is not

1123
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: as as desirable generally you want kids to have lungs.

1124
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert. Ah, we're back and we're talking

1125
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,919
Speaker 1: about so how many years are we talking about here

1126
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: that it's been on the market. It comes on the

1127
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: market in fifty seven. In nineteen sixty one, Grunental receives

1128
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: and they have started receiving information about about birthday formations

1129
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: and they're also the separate issue is nerve damage. So babies,

1130
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: you know, are being affected by this because they pregnant

1131
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: moms are taking it, but also people taking it adults

1132
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,479
Speaker 1: are are are suffering serious nerve damage. One palidomide victim,

1133
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: it was reported in nineteen sixty one, had to be

1134
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: sent to a psychiatric hospital because they were just like

1135
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: driven out of their mind by severe nerve damage. Grunentental

1136
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: began to suspect that rival drug companies were collecting case

1137
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: studies of philidamide problems in order to damage sales. They

1138
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: hired a private detective to investigate, and he began spying

1139
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: on critics of the drug. He began became convinced that

1140
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: Merk was behind the whole thing. That same year, nineteen

1141
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: sixty one Grunittal Scent executives to East Berlin to try

1142
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: and arrange for palidomide to be sold in communist eats Germany. Thankfully,

1143
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: the East German health authorities had their ship more on

1144
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,959
Speaker 1: the ball than their capitalist cousins. They declared the drug

1145
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: way too dangerous and refused to import it, which is great.

1146
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: So the Communists are like, no, this seems like a

1147
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: really horrible medicine. Um, seems like it's doing a lot

1148
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 1: of bad ship and we should not. Like we camp

1149
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: some Nazis, but we killed the We also killed more

1150
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 1: than you. Also, yeah, yeah, we are we do not

1151
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 1: once you're not the death pills. Oddly enough, and this

1152
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: is one of the only times in history this will

1153
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: be the case. The United States of America makes the

1154
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: same call as Communist Germany. Um, we don't allow this.

1155
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: There are some philidomite babies in the US. Some of

1156
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 1: the stuff gets over as like as testing pills basically,

1157
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: but it is never sold widely in the United States.

1158
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: And we owe this to an f DA official named

1159
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: Francis Kelsey. She was an extremely accomplished doctor who had

1160
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: worked as an editor for the Journal of the American

1161
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: Medical Association before being hired by the f d A.

1162
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 1: One month after starting the job, a salesman from a

1163
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: company affiliated with Grun and Tall came to her door

1164
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: with marvelous stories of a super safe, absolutely can't kill

1165
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: you sleep drug called the litamide. Now, at this point

1166
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty West Germans were consuming one million doses

1167
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: of philidamide grun and Tal, Yeah, Grunin Tal in the

1168
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: American company they licensed with. We're looking at a fortune

1169
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: in potential profits if they could sell this in the

1170
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 1: United States, with so much money at stake and such

1171
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 1: widespread adoption overseas, u S approval was seen as a formality. Obviously,

1172
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: they're gonna let us sell this over there, And it

1173
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: would have been a formality if not for Francis Kelsey

1174
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,959
Speaker 1: quote from the University of Chicago. Kelsey insisted on hard

1175
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: evidence to back the salesman's claims for the drugs safety

1176
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: and refused to be browbeaten after the initial In the

1177
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: initial application, Kelsey noted the reliance on anecdotal testimony in

1178
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: place of clinical data. She ran it by her husband,

1179
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: who then worked as a pharmacologist at the National Institutes

1180
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: of Health. One section of the submission he branded an

1181
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: interesting collection of meaningless pseudo scientific jargon, apparently intended to

1182
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: impress chemically unsophisticated readers. Elsewhere, he noted the very unusual

1183
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: claim that the litamide has no lethal dose. No other

1184
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: substance can make that claim, he wrote. Kelsey's concerns escalated

1185
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,439
Speaker 1: when in February nineteen sixty one she saw a letter

1186
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: from a physician in the British Medical Journal reporting cases

1187
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: of periphery of peripheral neuritis nerve damage in the hands

1188
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: and feet among patients he treated with the litamide. She

1189
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 1: insisted that the burden of proof was on Grunental to

1190
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 1: show their drug was safe, and refused to approve the

1191
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: drug unless they could do that. The sales rep, enraged,

1192
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 1: called Kelsey's boss, Ralph Smith, and said that he that

1193
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: he considered the denial letter she'd sent him libellus like

1194
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: this is liabel for her to say that the litamite

1195
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 1: isn't safe. Haven't you seen her? Did you see the child?

1196
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: That kid got into all kinds of thealidomide And look

1197
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 1: at the smile, the smile. Look how happy is now? This?

1198
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: The palidomide rep asks the like asks Dr Kelsey's boss

1199
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: at the f D A, are you really going to

1200
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: back with this, woman says, and not let us sell

1201
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,919
Speaker 1: forward of mind, And to to his credit, her boss

1202
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: is like, yes, of course I am. She's a very

1203
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: accomplished doctor and she's right though, it's just so scary that,

1204
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: like history and the lives of so many children in

1205
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: the like born in the sixties would have been at risk,

1206
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: had like yeah, some boss been like you know, uh

1207
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: sort of yeah, baited into that, like she's just a chick,

1208
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: like you're right, man, let's go forward. And I think

1209
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 1: in the eighties she gets a major national award for

1210
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: saving the country from philadamized like she's she's like, it

1211
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: really did come down to this one woman being like

1212
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 1: it seems like everything you're saying is a lie and

1213
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: this is extremely dangerous. No, thank you, um. And I

1214
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 1: don't know as much about the story in East Germany,

1215
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: but clearly there were people like her over there being like, no,

1216
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 1: this seems like a horrible thing, but it's interesting. And

1217
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: it's interesting because she's like, Okay, the literature and the

1218
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: things you provided all are really suss and so you

1219
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 1: have to wonder, like just how like fawning and glorious.

1220
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: They were like, it will make the strong stronger and

1221
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,439
Speaker 1: the weak, well it will kill them. But it's yeah,

1222
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: you know they deserved it anyway, if you can't survive,

1223
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: you know, like like what kind of weird, over zealous

1224
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: you know, trial language were they using. I mean they're

1225
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: literally saying there's no fatal dose of this stuff, which

1226
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 1: Dr Kelsey's husband is like, well that's not true of anything.

1227
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 1: Everything has a fatal dose. Like they're clearly did not

1228
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: you proper research if they're saying ship like that. Um So,

1229
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: the company, the US company that partners with Gruen and

1230
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 1: Tall in this, keeps trying to get FDA approval for

1231
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: the lidamide, but Dr Kelsey successfully stymies every effort, and

1232
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: it's a good thing she did. In February of nineteen

1233
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: sixty one, a scientist at a u S firm partnered

1234
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 1: with Gruen and Tal had the brilliant idea that since

1235
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: the litamide was a sedative, it might stop women from

1236
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 1: miscarrying their babies. Now, there's a lot of sexinism sexism

1237
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: based into why he thought this. He believed that miscarriages

1238
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: were caused by women quote becoming emotional about their pregnancies

1239
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: and that quote habitual aborders could benefit from philidomide. So

1240
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: that's an idea of how it would have been sold

1241
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 1: in the US is like, this will stop you from

1242
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: having spontaneous miscarriages. Take all the philidomide you can. It'll

1243
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 1: make sure your babies come out good. Knew that, Like

1244
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: you know that. That's sort of like when you immediately

1245
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: said that it started being prescribed to pregnant women who

1246
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: couldn't who had trouble sleeping. It's like, okay, well, you've

1247
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: got a lot of sexist doctors walking them down that

1248
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: primrose path of like, oh, you're havn't you listen, little lady.

1249
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: You've got a little too many questions about just dating

1250
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: a life inside of you. You're gonna need to go nightnight. Yeah,

1251
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: you're gonna need to Why don't you just sleep through

1252
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 1: the next couple of months. Here's a drug with no consequences.

1253
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: By late nineteen sixty one, the news had filled with

1254
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: hundreds of stories of infants born with severe deformations. Some

1255
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: had flippers for hands, others were missing their legs in

1256
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: pelvis entirely. And somebody's like, honestly like the pictures that

1257
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 1: people freak out over are these kids with like flipper hands.

1258
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: That's the best case because a lot of those kids

1259
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: are able to grow up and live normal lives. Right,

1260
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: they have to do some accommodations. But there's kids born

1261
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: without legs and pelvis is just no bottom half. There's

1262
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 1: kids born missing eyes, any born without with major internal

1263
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: malformations that make them that either kill them out right

1264
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 1: or make it them pot Like the best case scenario

1265
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 1: is that like, yeah, your hands come out a little

1266
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: bit different, but you're able to exist and like grow

1267
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 1: and live as a person. A lot of kids are

1268
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:58,919
Speaker 1: born without again without like organs that they need to survive. Um,

1269
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 1: tell me that grooming grusinhal started went on in like

1270
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 1: marketed prosthetics. Hey we've got ears. No, it's it's thankfully

1271
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: not that story, Um, but it is that sad. So

1272
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: the reports had started to flood in by late nineteen

1273
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: sixty and we know that doctor mucktr personally was aware

1274
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 1: of at least a hundred and fifty cases by that date.

1275
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: When one British distributor of the drug complained to him,

1276
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 1: he responded, Hey, chill out, you're making money, like don't

1277
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 1: worry that some kids are coming out without lungs. Worry

1278
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: about how much money you're about to make. The first

1279
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: doctor to publicly expose the litamide and get through grinenthal

1280
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: spies and pr flax was an Australian doctor named William McBride.

1281
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty one, he published a letter in The

1282
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: Lancet laying out a clear connection between the litamide and

1283
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 1: birth defects. This led to massive public outcry, which was

1284
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 1: helped along by the thousands of children with birth effects

1285
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: that started popping up on the front page of newspapers.

1286
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 1: Grunenthal withdrew the drug on November nineteen sixty one. We

1287
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: don't know how many babies were born with the linamite damage.

1288
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: Untold numbers. Estimates say fifty thousand of women aborted their

1289
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: fetuses when the news broke, They're just like, well, I've

1290
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 1: been taking philidamite. I don't wow. We know at least

1291
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 1: two thousand babies died as and were born and couldn't

1292
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 1: survive because they didn't have things that people need um

1293
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 1: as a result of philidamite. At least two thousand and

1294
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 1: another ten thousand worldwide were born with birth defects. The

1295
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 1: real numbers for both maybe much higher. It was sold

1296
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: in some places for years after I got pulled out

1297
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 1: of others, including like Argentina, kept selling I think it too,

1298
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 1: like the nineties. There was of course a massive lawsuit

1299
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,439
Speaker 1: nine grew Intal employee, and it's there are some uses

1300
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: for it, like philidamite is prescribed today in very specific cases.

1301
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 1: It has some medicinal causes, but not like it. It's

1302
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 1: not like a sleep age. How did it get Billy

1303
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 1: Joel here though? Oh there's just a line and one

1304
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 1: of his songs about children of philidamite. Um, it's a

1305
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 1: big story. All of these pictures of babies with different

1306
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 1: you know, very um like like people considered that would

1307
01:08:57,560 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 1: be gruesome deformations. These pictures are just on the front

1308
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 1: page of newspapers for months, like it's a it's a

1309
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: huge This is the stuff that like the National Inquirer

1310
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 1: just like has on file like that, let's put another deformed.

1311
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 1: There's a lot of exploitative aspects to this, but obviously

1312
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:16,680
Speaker 1: it is a massive story. Um. And there was a

1313
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 1: major lawsuit. Nine grun in Tall employees were charged with

1314
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 1: intent to commit bodily harm and voluntary manslaughter. The prosecution

1315
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 1: gathered huge amounts of data. More than five thousand case

1316
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 1: histories that took six years to analyze, hundreds of witnesses,

1317
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 1: and seventy thousand pages of evidence were gathered. Among other things,

1318
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 1: the prosecution found a Grunentall doctor who testified that he'd

1319
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: seen mock up packaging for the drug with warning not

1320
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: for pregnant women, labels that executives at the company had

1321
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 1: mixed so that they could sell more thalami to pregnant women.

1322
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 1: One of the Grunentall lawyers was a fellow named Dr

1323
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 1: Joseph Neuberger. In November of nineteen sixty six, which is

1324
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 1: a couple of years into the whole trial process, he

1325
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 1: was made Minister of Justice for the German state where

1326
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: the trial took place. Three days before he took office,

1327
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 1: he wrote to the prosecutors, I would be personally obliged

1328
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: for a rapid execution, I e. I would appreciate it

1329
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 1: if you would end the trial before we actually have

1330
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: to go to court over this thing. So they're doing

1331
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 1: like discovery and whatnot. He doesn't want there to be

1332
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 1: a real trial. Quote from The Guardian, the last thing

1333
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:17,600
Speaker 1: he did In the afternoon of the day he was

1334
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:20,719
Speaker 1: sworn in, was meet with the prosecution in Aachen again.

1335
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 1: He asked them to stop action against Worts. He told

1336
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:25,839
Speaker 1: them he was resigning as a solicitor for Worts unbecoming

1337
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:28,000
Speaker 1: Minister of Justice. But then he discussed the case again

1338
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: and repeated his claims. His personal interest in defending words

1339
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 1: in the company persisted, adds to his company's representation. In

1340
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,600
Speaker 1: the end, prosecutors met with defense lawyers, the grun in

1341
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 1: Tall corporate board, and no representatives of Philidamide victims. They

1342
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 1: worked out in agreement whereby the company paid what worked

1343
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: out to a couple of thousand dollars per victim, and

1344
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: all victims agreed never to sue again, and the state

1345
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: agreed that no grun in Tall employees would be charged

1346
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: with anything. Yeah, where was the German rock? And the

1347
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 1: judges are angry about this. They write their decision that

1348
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:05,440
Speaker 1: had this gone all the way through trial, multiple Grunental employees,

1349
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 1: including Dr Mum, would have been sent to prison. That

1350
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 1: like they were guilty. This agreement that was made without

1351
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:13,599
Speaker 1: the consent of the families is kind of fun. They

1352
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 1: just need to Yeah, I'm saying like we're you know

1353
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:24,799
Speaker 1: she We just needed some like you know, like Mauthie

1354
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,559
Speaker 1: Redhead and a boostier to come in and be like

1355
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,639
Speaker 1: your family deserves justice, and people will be like, wow,

1356
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 1: she's hot and right in any way, Alas that is

1357
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 1: not what goes down. Instead, they get off pretty much

1358
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 1: scott free. It is worth noting what an outrageous profit

1359
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 1: former Nazi Heinrich Muchter made on the litamide between nineteen

1360
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: fifty two and nineteen sixty one. His salary was only

1361
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 1: fourteen four hundred marks per year. In nineteen fifty seven,

1362
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 1: the earth A Litamide went on sale, he received a

1363
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: bonus based on his share of sales of a hundred

1364
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 1: and sixty thousand arms. In nineteen fifty nine he received

1365
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 1: a two hundred thousand mark bonus. One his bonus was

1366
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 1: three hundred and twenty five thousand marks. Green and Tall

1367
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 1: is still a very profitable company today. They were eventually

1368
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: shamed into throwing another pittance at the litamide victims and

1369
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 1: like two thousand that same year. That same year, they

1370
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 1: made a public a policy to apology to the victims

1371
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:24,799
Speaker 1: of their drug, and the CEO unveiled a bronze statue

1372
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 1: of a limbless child in front of the No, it's

1373
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 1: like the most fucked up part of it, Like, why

1374
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 1: would you think that would help? We took all those

1375
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 1: heinous photos and we just enshrined it and go and

1376
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:43,680
Speaker 1: it's there forever. There's like flip flipper kid, that's like

1377
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: that is this will make it right. It's like it's

1378
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 1: so funny. It's like a weird like attempt at becoming

1379
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 1: woke for a farmer company to like lean into the

1380
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 1: birth defects that they caused. Like, no, dude, you're not

1381
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: like disability rights motherfucker you did this. You can't just

1382
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 1: champion children who don't have ears. Now, it's awesome and

1383
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: it's I need to read you an excerpt from his apology,

1384
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 1: because it's sure we've heard a lot of bad apologies

1385
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,759
Speaker 1: the last couple of years. This might be the worst.

1386
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:22,679
Speaker 1: This might be the worst apologies. Apple notes. We asked

1387
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: for forgiveness that for nearly fifty years we didn't find

1388
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:28,639
Speaker 1: a way of reaching out to you, from human being

1389
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,719
Speaker 1: to human being. We asked that you regard our long

1390
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 1: silence as a sign of the shock that fate paused

1391
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 1: in us. We wish the f Philidam my tragedy had

1392
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: never We didn't get we we denied you money and

1393
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 1: fought to make it illegal for you to sue us

1394
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 1: because we were so shocked at how badly we'd fucked

1395
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:48,799
Speaker 1: you up. That's how it was. We were so scared

1396
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:50,680
Speaker 1: of what we did to you that we couldn't do

1397
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,639
Speaker 1: anything right to make it. Traumatized by the trauma. We're

1398
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 1: victims too, We're victims by how scary you look because

1399
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,840
Speaker 1: of the things we did you Like gross Mason apology,

1400
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:09,040
Speaker 1: incredible apology took them at least piece of shl pull

1401
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 1: our jaws off the ground once we saw what you

1402
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:19,639
Speaker 1: look like, um like sixty years actually, oh my god. Okay,

1403
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: so was there a lot of money are we talking about?

1404
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: The company should be dissolved for the amount. I agree.

1405
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer that, Um, when companies do stuff

1406
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:32,640
Speaker 1: like this and this should be That should have been

1407
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 1: the case for cigarette companies, you know, when it was

1408
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 1: found that they've done all the ship. It should be

1409
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 1: the case for ex On Mobile and Shell and BP. Yeah,

1410
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm on Santa well yeah, and um fucking uh Sackler

1411
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,799
Speaker 1: Perdue Pharmaceuticals. That the actual right punishment indition to charges

1412
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 1: against the individuals. You you charge the company. Since corporations

1413
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 1: are human beings, you charge them with murder and you

1414
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: execute them. Um and and that means you literally dissolve

1415
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 1: and destroy that. There's one benefit two corporations being human

1416
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: beings that they can be executed. I I think the

1417
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 1: grun in Taal Corporation should have been dragged out behind

1418
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 1: a shed and shot with a bolt gun. Um. I have.

1419
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to believe that this was the

1420
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 1: only medicine they marketed under false pretenses that killed people

1421
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 1: are lead to horrible birth defects. I mean, I think

1422
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: there's other complaints about the company, but yeah, it's hard

1423
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: to be up on the same leftlist. The Litamite, which

1424
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 1: is considered to be like one of the great up

1425
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 1: until fucking oxy was like the number one pharmaceutical disaster

1426
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: in in in history. Pretty much. Um, it's good ship.

1427
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:45,839
Speaker 1: That's rich anyway, brought to you by Ambient. Look, Ambient,

1428
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 1: it's not the littamie you you will go on a

1429
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 1: sleep walking rage about I don't know lizard people, but look,

1430
01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:03,719
Speaker 1: it's not the little mine. It'll be funny for your friends.

1431
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 1: That's the terrible man so no one saw any more

1432
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:12,439
Speaker 1: four year sentences. No, no, nobody. Nobody went to prison

1433
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:16,720
Speaker 1: as a result of this. Dr Muktor retired wealthy, as

1434
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 1: are the rest of the Nazis who worked there. The

1435
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 1: good die young, the old bad guy very very The

1436
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 1: good die young because they're born without fucking crucial organs

1437
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:32,040
Speaker 1: as a result of thelidamide poisoning. The full circle on

1438
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: Nazis killing babies is uh, I mean, yeah, it's incredible

1439
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:43,520
Speaker 1: in this story. You just do um classic Nazis. Well, Francesco,

1440
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:45,640
Speaker 1: that's going to do it for us here behind the

1441
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 1: bastards today. Thank you so much, Robert. Now I'm gonna

1442
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:56,479
Speaker 1: go google these images of children and it's it's not great.

1443
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,680
Speaker 1: I never, I mean because like a lot to be

1444
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: quite at frank them. I don't know, the birth defects

1445
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:05,800
Speaker 1: or whatever that that go viral, Like people who don't

1446
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,240
Speaker 1: have philidamite get the stuff like that as well. The

1447
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: thing that's particular, number one that's horrible is that these

1448
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't have happened without philidamite, as opposed to just being

1449
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 1: some quirk of genetics that makes it happen. But the

1450
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:17,599
Speaker 1: other thing is that like a lot of kids aren't

1451
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 1: able to live because they're born without things that they

1452
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: have to live. It's like one thing is like, yeah,

1453
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:23,280
Speaker 1: your hands are different, we can figure out ways to

1454
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 1: make that work. Or like you don't have you know,

1455
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:27,679
Speaker 1: you don't have all of your legs. We can figure

1456
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 1: out ways for you to live a full life. Um,

1457
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 1: if you're born without like lungs and shit, Um, it's

1458
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:36,679
Speaker 1: more difficult. Uh, there's not really like an easy way

1459
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 1: to deal with that. Like, and that's in addition to

1460
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 1: the fact that Filiamite there was just a shipload of

1461
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 1: kids who would not have been born with any sort

1462
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: of of differences or difficulties if they had. This whole

1463
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 1: story is very like it is like if you give

1464
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 1: the mouse a cookie, but it's more like if you

1465
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 1: hire a Nazi scientists, Yeah, if you hire Nazi scientists,

1466
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 1: they will do Nazi He's probably going to do Nazi

1467
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:01,240
Speaker 1: ship and then sort of because they are, it's it's,

1468
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:09,120
Speaker 1: i mean, look Naxis. Yeah what did you expecting. Yeah,

1469
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:16,759
Speaker 1: that's exactly the musical sting for the Letamide. We should

1470
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 1: I mean it should be like this is definitely the

1471
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:22,559
Speaker 1: next chapter of like Understanding the Holocaust is also understanding

1472
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:24,680
Speaker 1: what happens when you hire the people that did the

1473
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 1: Holocaust to do other things, which is why they all

1474
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 1: should have been tossed into a mass grave after being

1475
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,960
Speaker 1: shot in the face. Oh you worked for that, You

1476
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 1: worked with the s S in any capacity. Off you

1477
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 1: go at the time to kill you. Unless you're like

1478
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,559
Speaker 1: one of the nine s S guys who were secretly

1479
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 1: helping concentration campaign mats. There were a few of those dudes.

1480
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 1: Their stories are important, um, but unless you're one of those,

1481
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:49,000
Speaker 1: Like again, like nine dudes, off you go put a

1482
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 1: bullet in your head. Exactly right. It's like, if you're

1483
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,639
Speaker 1: going to be part of a murderous regime, work your

1484
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:58,719
Speaker 1: way up, bro, because you know, if you're successful enough, again,

1485
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna land on your feet. I mean,

1486
01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:04,120
Speaker 1: the lesson here is you want to be mid level

1487
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 1: when you're when you're part of an organization that commits

1488
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: unprecedented war crimes, you want to be in the middle.

1489
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 1: You want to be like the Nougat Center in the

1490
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: snickers of crimes against humanity because then you don't know,

1491
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 1: everyone knows the peanut. Everybody like You're like, you're definitely

1492
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 1: gonna gets a peanut. Yeah, yeah, fucking I Comman as

1493
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:27,439
Speaker 1: a peanut, right the funk Israel went after him like

1494
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,800
Speaker 1: a spent so much money catching Aikman. Nobody's going after

1495
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:35,439
Speaker 1: Dr mucktur because he's again nicely mid level. That's where

1496
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: you want to be, baby, Yeah, yeah again. Some advice

1497
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 1: to our listeners who are considering taking part in a

1498
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:50,000
Speaker 1: genocidal death regime. Stick to the middle, baby, that's the

1499
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:57,000
Speaker 1: safe place. The squeaky real occasionally gets hung after a

1500
01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:02,879
Speaker 1: war crimes tribunal. That's that's the lesson here, or occasionally, honestly,

1501
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:06,840
Speaker 1: not that often. Um, you're probably fine if you're at

1502
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:08,880
Speaker 1: the top of it either. We do not as a

1503
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 1: species like punishing war criminals. So that's good. That is good.

1504
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: This has been This has been fascinating. I've learned a lot.

1505
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 1: I got to sing a children, thank you you did

1506
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:20,200
Speaker 1: you did so? Yeah, my god, what are you gonna?

1507
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 1: Plus let's plug the Obituation Room podcast for weekly little

1508
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:28,240
Speaker 1: rundown of the news with some jokes and I Love

1509
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:33,520
Speaker 1: You is less dark than this podcast, low bar. Yeah,

1510
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:38,839
Speaker 1: that's true of most podcasts. Yeah, I'm such a fan, Robert,

1511
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 1: And it was so good to be on though. Man,

1512
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,800
Speaker 1: someone's got to thank you for coming on. We have

1513
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:48,400
Speaker 1: done a lot of horrible crimes against babies episodes recently.

1514
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:53,719
Speaker 1: Um so so child soldiers arm a baby, y'all? Well, okay,

1515
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 1: well chill, Look, you have kids, right, they're going to

1516
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,639
Speaker 1: find a way to have like a toy gun kids

1517
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 1: find a way into yours from real guns and have

1518
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 1: them fight your wars. Yeah, make all I'm saying, right,

1519
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:10,520
Speaker 1: you're leaving money on the table if you're not weaponizing

1520
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 1: your children. That's all I would say. Right, already has

1521
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 1: caught onto that, Like I know, I know half of

1522
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:22,799
Speaker 1: them clinics with bloody fetus signs are actual fetuses themselves.

1523
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 1: They are babies doing their parents work. Um yes, I'm

1524
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 1: more mean, like an army of babies to do like

1525
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:35,519
Speaker 1: retribution on Nazis and Nazi profiteers. If you could train

1526
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:38,120
Speaker 1: a baby to kill, they could get into like they

1527
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:40,800
Speaker 1: could crawl through crawl spaces really easily. They can get

1528
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 1: into areas full size adults can't. And they're harder to

1529
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:46,679
Speaker 1: hit if you're shooting back at them. Um, I think

1530
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:53,759
Speaker 1: there's a lot of untapped potential in in So She's like, yeah,

1531
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:58,160
Speaker 1: we should probably probably call it for the week. But um,

1532
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 1: if you have, if you're a billion are listening to

1533
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,280
Speaker 1: this and you want to invest in my private military

1534
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: contract incorporation that only hires children at the age of nine,

1535
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 1: hit me up, um at blackwater types, that's what we're

1536
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: calling it. Will little blackwater, little black water water but cute, yeah,

1537
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:23,920
Speaker 1: little Haliburton. Yeah, why not just little versions of all

1538
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:28,559
Speaker 1: the little ray theon, Babe, theon. We'll work it out,

1539
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:31,479
Speaker 1: We'll work it out, all right. This has been behind

1540
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:34,760
Speaker 1: the bastards. Thank you, Francesca. Check out the bituation room.

1541
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:37,599
Speaker 1: Check out my novel at a t r book dot com.

1542
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 1: It's free. Yeah. My kittens are crying in the background. Yeah,

1543
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,160
Speaker 1: well they're not going to get it, um, because I'm

1544
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 1: bad and seen