Speaker 1: You run the biggest bank in the world. You have
Speaker 1: our money, You've got world leaders on speed dial. That's
Speaker 1: a lot of power. How do you decide when and
Speaker 1: how to wield that power?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure I have a lot of uspeed,
Speaker 2: doll Certain you say all that. Sometimes I think I'm
Speaker 2: just riding the bronco and hanging out for deal life.
Speaker 1: I'm Emoi Chang and this is the circuit. We're coming
Speaker 1: to you from London on a bustling Monday morning, where
Speaker 1: I'm heading to sit down with one of the titans
Speaker 1: of banking.
Speaker 2: You have a lot of folks from Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: Sure, uhh, this is the Jamie Diamond treatment exactly. Jamie
Speaker 1: Diamond is an institution head of the largest bank in
Speaker 1: the world, JP Morgan Chase. He's got a knack for
Speaker 1: whipping companies into shape and cleaning up balance sheets, and
Speaker 1: in an era where multiple banks have failed or almost failed,
Speaker 1: Diamond has come to the rescue. He ascended to the
Speaker 1: top of JP Morgan as a successful deal maker and
Speaker 1: leader with some hot takes along the way.
Speaker 2: I could cure less with bitcoin Tree. Howard trades Why
Speaker 2: it praised? Who trades it? If you're stupid enough to buy,
Speaker 2: you'll pay the price for it.
Speaker 1: One day, I wanted to learn more about the man
Speaker 1: behind the banker, to hear more about his philosophy, outlook
Speaker 1: on the world, and just how he does it. Joining
Speaker 1: me on this edition of The Circuit JP Morgan's CEO
Speaker 1: and chair Jamie Diamond. So you're on the road.
Speaker 2: How often actually we checked last year is like one
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty nights or something like that, although some
Speaker 2: of his COVID catchup. I feel like I need to
Speaker 2: visit people.
Speaker 1: Right. Do you have any travel hacks?
Speaker 2: What does that mean?
Speaker 1: You know ways to make your life easier?
Speaker 2: Yes, well I try when I land, when I exercise,
Speaker 2: I eat, when I don't get tortured by people.
Speaker 1: Where you're from, I'm from Hawaii originally, Why yeah?
Speaker 2: And married, married.
Speaker 1: Children, four kids? Holy?
Speaker 2: Holy yeah?
Speaker 1: How do you do it?
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
Speaker 1: How did you juggle it all?
Speaker 2: I pretty much had a binary life. I worked and family,
Speaker 2: So you didn't see me in black ties and red
Speaker 2: carpet some very rare stuff like that. So big family life.
Speaker 1: I've heard you're a family man. I like the Christmas card.
Speaker 2: By the way, my wife does all that.
Speaker 1: I'm super into I do a family Christmas card.
Speaker 2: The girls will get involved in what pictures she could
Speaker 2: put in because they all look at how they looked.
Speaker 2: Of course I put in wherever you want? And how
Speaker 2: old are your kids?
Speaker 1: I have three boys and a girl eleven eight, six four.
Speaker 1: The ages change every year, so I have to remind myself.
Speaker 1: How about you?
Speaker 2: Do you remember their names? Yes?
Speaker 1: I do remember their name? How old are your daughters now?
Speaker 2: Thirty eight, thirty six, thirty four? And seven grandkids? Six
Speaker 2: girls and finally a boy.
Speaker 1: Do you babysit?
Speaker 2: Yeah? My wife does more than I do, but I do.
Speaker 2: We do it together. They come over, sleepovers and all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Any parenting advice just love them? Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: I thought I would mourn the loss of their youth
Speaker 1: as they got older, but it gets more fun.
Speaker 2: It's just no fun once they start talking, arguing, defiant
Speaker 2: little things and more sophisticated. They're like in on that
Speaker 2: you could take restaurants, not worried about all the neighbors
Speaker 2: get mad at you.
Speaker 1: So what do you like to do with your daughters? Now?
Speaker 2: Well? Everything? We barbecue, we eat, we got a restaurants,
Speaker 2: we travel, we listen to music. We do wine. I
Speaker 2: love my son in laws.
Speaker 1: Quite the test. Going to meet Jamie Diamond as your
Speaker 1: future father in law.
Speaker 2: They have no problem.
Speaker 1: I'd be shaking in my God knows.
Speaker 2: If I ever say something where I'm wrong, they correct me,
Speaker 2: just like they like finding me wrong about something.
Speaker 1: Well. I love hearing and help people do it. So
Speaker 1: I think that's helpful. Moms and dads, you know, I
Speaker 1: tell hope.
Speaker 2: You know, Jamie Morrien, everyone should take her on their
Speaker 2: own their mind to buy the spirit. They's all their friends,
Speaker 2: their family, their health. They have to do that. It's
Speaker 2: part of their life. If you mess that up, you know,
Speaker 2: it makes everything else particularly hard. So I heard a
Speaker 2: great speech from a woman once. We said you can
Speaker 2: have it all. You just can have it all. At
Speaker 2: the same time, I like that advice.
Speaker 1: You grew up talking finance at the kitchen table as
Speaker 1: a kid. What was it like growing up, Jamie Diamond? Like,
Speaker 1: what do you think prepared you for all this?
Speaker 2: Well? I grew up in Jackson, Ice Queen's and my
Speaker 2: grandparents three were Greek immigrants, some one was born here.
Speaker 2: I don't think any of the four finished high school.
Speaker 2: There was a loud table people argue and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But my parents were well, my dad was a stockbroker.
Speaker 2: You know, I was the only one who took interest
Speaker 2: in that, reading the paper, understanding I put a stock
Speaker 2: when I'm twelve, thirteen or fourteen. You know, they didn't
Speaker 2: ask us to go into finance. So my older brother
Speaker 2: is a physicist, you know, a University of Chicago PhD.
Speaker 2: Neils were institute in Denmark for ten or twelve years,
Speaker 2: IBM Labs, etc. And my other brother is a teacher.
Speaker 2: And so it was basically, do the best you can,
Speaker 2: make the world a better place, treat everyone with respect,
Speaker 2: have a purpose in life. It was more around that,
Speaker 2: but a lot of intellectual debate at the table.
Speaker 1: So going a little bigger picture. Now, you run the
Speaker 1: biggest bank in the world. You have our money, You've
Speaker 1: got world leaders on speed dial. That's a lot of power.
Speaker 1: How do you decide when and how to wield that power?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure. I have a lot of people
Speaker 2: on speed doll. So you say all that, Sometimes I
Speaker 2: think I'm just riding the Bronco and hanging out for
Speaker 2: deal life. You know, I love what I do. I
Speaker 2: try to talk that and I try to keep my
Speaker 2: mind open. One of the benefits from traveling the world.
Speaker 2: I was just in Mumbai and Switzerland and seeing clients.
Speaker 2: You learn a lot and you try to make sure
Speaker 2: you're doing a proper assessment of the world, that you're
Speaker 2: looking at the options. You're not like just saying we're
Speaker 2: going to do this. I looked at as part of
Speaker 2: our job to try to help country do the best
Speaker 2: they can for their citizens. So we bank countries, we
Speaker 2: also advise them on skills and trade and economics. You
Speaker 2: look at our research, which is extraordinary. It's a lot
Speaker 2: around how is an economy run. So when you go
Speaker 2: to like when I got back from Mumbai, we research
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty companies now or something like that.
Speaker 2: When I first went there in five maybe we did
Speaker 2: twenty companies, you know, And so we're educating the world
Speaker 2: about those companies. We're educating the world about the Indian economy.
Speaker 2: As we do that, we indicate also educate the Indians
Speaker 2: about what works in their economy and what doesn't work,
Speaker 2: and those are important things to lift up society.
Speaker 1: You've got this reputation as a sort of white Night
Speaker 1: for the economy. Do you ever feel pressure to come
Speaker 1: in with the.
Speaker 2: Say no, I feel a tremendous amount of pressure to
Speaker 2: do Obviously, my family comes first, okay, But to do
Speaker 2: a great job for my company and our clients I
Speaker 2: travel around also is hugely rewarding for me that we've
Speaker 2: lifted people up, we've done a good job. But I
Speaker 2: also feel a huge bird to do a good job
Speaker 2: for my country. So, you know, when my country wants
Speaker 2: me to do something, and we talk all the time
Speaker 2: to the senators and regulators, what can we do to
Speaker 2: make the system better, to lift up the country, lift
Speaker 2: up in the cities. We do a lot of work
Speaker 2: inner cities, and you know, on work skills, we do
Speaker 2: a lot of work on health equity. We're trying to
Speaker 2: figure out how to make society better. And I do
Speaker 2: consider that part of our job because if we can
Speaker 2: lift up society, that's better for everybody. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: I do feel pressure to do that. I look at
Speaker 2: that as part of my job. I think about ten
Speaker 2: years ago, I said government is a line of business
Speaker 2: for us, and I meant it in multiple different ways
Speaker 2: that we have to have the time, the effort, you know,
Speaker 2: demand power. A lot of our people go all the
Speaker 2: time now to make sure we are probably engaged with
Speaker 2: the government around the world.
Speaker 1: You've built a bank that's four tillion dollars insets and counting.
Speaker 1: How big is too big?
Speaker 2: I think the question is what works for consumers and
Speaker 2: industries and stuff like that. So you know, if you
Speaker 2: want to build a Boeing aircraft, you have to be big.
Speaker 2: You can pretend that you don't if you want to
Speaker 2: do what JP Morgan does. We move ten trillion dollars
Speaker 2: of money around the world every day. We bank some
Speaker 2: of these companies in thirty countries. We bank countries, We
Speaker 2: bank the World Bank, the IMF, we bank the United
Speaker 2: States government. You have to be big. You can't do
Speaker 2: those things and be small. I applaud the small banks.
Speaker 2: We're the biggest bank to community banks and regional banks
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. And I understand some of the
Speaker 2: stress arounder. We're trying to help. So it's not either or.
Speaker 1: JP Morgan's tech footprint has gotten even bigger now that
Speaker 1: we've seen clients flood out of SVB. You bought First Republic.
Speaker 1: How big is the opportunity to be the new incumbent
Speaker 1: bank for startups and vcs and how will you, Jamie Diamond,
Speaker 1: manage the risk differently.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think first of all, we didn't want to
Speaker 2: benefit in the world by that kind of thing happening,
Speaker 2: So it wasn't good for banks or good for us.
Speaker 2: Having said that, when that happened, you know, we had
Speaker 2: people working around the clock literally to open those accounts.
Speaker 2: I recently came from a Sequoia thing. I know a
Speaker 2: lot of the benure capitalists you know, Saturday, Sundays through
Speaker 2: the nights to onboard these accounts and help them through it.
Speaker 2: And we always were there. We always did Okay, I
Speaker 2: always want to do better. We're going to We're adding people.
Speaker 2: I think the biggest different Silicon Valley Bank before I
Speaker 2: get the First Republic is they did a great job
Speaker 2: at some of this stuff. So obviously there's certain things
Speaker 2: they did on a macro level which weren't right. They
Speaker 2: did a lot of things at the micro level that right.
Speaker 2: How they dealt with the client, how they service them.
Speaker 2: They serve them locally. So we have unbelievable products and
Speaker 2: service to bring them digital consumer subscription lines, financing, globality, research,
Speaker 2: you name it. But we have to deliver to them
Speaker 2: in a way they actually like it and they want it,
Speaker 2: which is what Silicon Valley Bank did. So we're organizing
Speaker 2: around it. We just took out a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: new space in powelt though we hired John Cheena is
Speaker 2: one of the top people out of Silicon Valley Bank
Speaker 2: organized around the innovation economy. We'll get it right. I
Speaker 2: just want to make sure they're happy with us a
Speaker 2: year from now, not just just today.
Speaker 1: But what about That's.
Speaker 2: What we do all day long for us. It's incremental risk.
Speaker 2: It's a slightly different kind of risk. So you know,
Speaker 2: and this happened years ago with a bank lend to
Speaker 2: a non revenue company. Well the answer, you know, twenty
Speaker 2: years ago was zero. But we did Facebook. So we've
Speaker 2: learned how you can do that when you do that.
Speaker 2: But again, the risk is it's not the risk, it's
Speaker 2: the venture capital company, it's the venture capital partners, it's
Speaker 2: the investee companies, it's the investing company's managements, it's that
Speaker 2: whole ecosystem. And so we're just organizing around it.
Speaker 1: The financial crisis, the mplosion of SBB, and the recent
Speaker 1: banking crisis. What's the lesson you take from THO in
Speaker 1: terms of crisis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, going way back. I used to do
Speaker 2: a presentation on financial crises, you know, going back to
Speaker 2: there's blow ups some Gmmy May's Penn Central Commercial paper,
Speaker 2: the eighty seven crash, the ninety recession, the seventy four.
Speaker 2: If you make a list of all those things, you
Speaker 2: really and I'm not making fun of Aaron. They have
Speaker 2: all the time. And the best preparation is in our
Speaker 2: business capital and liquidity which dot Frank Imperu. We already
Speaker 2: had a lot be prepared. You can't be prepared after
Speaker 2: the fact. You got to be prepared before the facts.
Speaker 2: When I talk about risk management, it's always about the
Speaker 2: range of outcomes can handle them.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the things they criticize about the stress has
Speaker 2: it's one test. We do one hundred a week. I'm
Speaker 2: not worried about the one test. And beyond that, we
Speaker 2: talk about geopolitical crises, cyber You got to be prepared
Speaker 2: for that stuff. And it does happen, and it's going
Speaker 2: to surprise you one day, just like well, I'd be surprised,
Speaker 2: weil it goes to one fifty. I will not. It
Speaker 2: can easily happen if a bunch of factors fallow a
Speaker 2: certain way. So the best thing is be prepared for
Speaker 2: any business. When you think about risk, think about things
Speaker 2: that can go terribly wrong. Can you survive them? You know,
Speaker 2: it could be technology, it could be government regulations, it
Speaker 2: could be literally the weather. If you're a restaurant, you
Speaker 2: know that might close you down. If you if you
Speaker 2: lose this week's business, you're out of business. Get enough cash.
Speaker 2: So you should think all that through.
Speaker 1: Where's China on the list of risks?
Speaker 2: When I say geopolitical, that's the big one. It's the
Speaker 2: thread from Ukraine, oil and gas, food, migration, all our relationships,
Speaker 2: the most important one being China that is the most
Speaker 2: important for the future of the world. Then obviously Ukraine
Speaker 2: is affecting it. And in fact it's very hard to
Speaker 2: see really positive outcomes with China until the Ukraine War
Speaker 2: is resolved, hopefully, whether Ukraine is going to say they
Speaker 2: have a victory of some sort.
Speaker 1: You've said you're worried about another Trump presidency.
Speaker 2: How worried, I don't know if I've said that. I'm
Speaker 2: hoping the American public. Look, we need good American leadership,
Speaker 2: and I think that we need to explain to people
Speaker 2: why the this's so important for the world, you know,
Speaker 2: and so there's a little bit of this. You know,
Speaker 2: America first, and no American president is going to say
Speaker 2: America second. But we need to explain is why Ukraine
Speaker 2: is important to us, and why American security relies on
Speaker 2: global security and why are allies rely on that And
Speaker 2: if they can't rely on America, they will have to
Speaker 2: rely on someone else. And so I just think it's
Speaker 2: very important, you know. Bob writes in his book The
Speaker 2: Exercise of Power about the symphony of power and all
Speaker 2: the soft things, not the military, which we've overused, but diplomacy, development, finance, education, communication, obviously,
Speaker 2: economic trade, investment, all those things. And I think we
Speaker 2: need a better job in that.
Speaker 1: Given we're in London, you don't see the same wealth
Speaker 1: of tech companies that you see in Silicon Valley. They
Speaker 1: want more big star tech companies here. Why haven't we
Speaker 1: seen that?
Speaker 2: I'd look at the other way around us was the
Speaker 2: center of tech, you know, not just Silicon Valley. It's
Speaker 2: all over America. I recently came from Boise and other places.
Speaker 2: It's staggering. So the dasper has actually moved overseas. I
Speaker 2: was recent in Berlin and Paris. There are tech start
Speaker 2: ups everywhere now they're quite good. They're more of a
Speaker 2: going public and we're the leader of taking them public here.
Speaker 2: So I think it's a great thing. And obviously you've
Speaker 2: always had it in China, a little bit in India,
Speaker 2: still in the Europe is not quite the United States,
Speaker 2: but the fact that here is a very good thing.
Speaker 1: So we saw a few tech companies go public. What's
Speaker 1: happening in the markets? Are we back or is this
Speaker 1: a blimp?
Speaker 2: I think it's open for now for different types of companies,
Speaker 2: but you know, you see IPO markets like an accordion.
Speaker 2: I think there were like four hundred plus deals in
Speaker 2: twenty one and forty and twenty two, and I think
Speaker 2: something like fifty or sixty this year. Obviously, interest rates
Speaker 2: change a lot. What help you evalue it whether we
Speaker 2: go public? The value of cash flows or earnings and
Speaker 2: cash counts a little bit more than accounta before. But
Speaker 2: for now it's open. Markets are healthy, you know, the
Speaker 2: economy is still okay. So it's open. Maybe not for everybody,
Speaker 2: but it's open.
Speaker 1: The biggest tech companies prop up a huge chunk of
Speaker 1: the SMP is big tech too, big to fail.
Speaker 2: I think that's a too broader question. I think in
Speaker 2: any industry, well you say too big to fail, which
Speaker 2: I've lost touch with it, that really means anymore because
Speaker 2: remember car comes are bailed out and these things are
Speaker 2: bailed out, and I don't understand they should ask what
Speaker 2: they want. If the regulars don't want a bank to
Speaker 2: ever fail again, then we should do ABC D and
Speaker 2: E if that's through. I didn't think that was the goal.
Speaker 2: I think God Frank actually accomplish most of the goals,
Speaker 2: which is dramatically reduced to risks, create liquidity, capital, stuff
Speaker 2: like that. So and big tech, you got to be
Speaker 2: very specific. You know. Sometimes companies misuse their position and
Speaker 2: sometimes they don't. Sometimes regulator is captured and sometimes they don't.
Speaker 2: But they're powerful, you know, and we have to deal
Speaker 2: with I've been writing about big tech going to our business.
Speaker 2: We got fintech, but we also have big tech, and
Speaker 2: they will embed payment systems in there and some we're
Speaker 2: going to white label banks kind of what Apple did
Speaker 2: you know they have the right to do that. I'm
Speaker 2: not against that, I would be against unfair use of
Speaker 2: their position to dominus in a business.
Speaker 1: Bill Gates one said.
Speaker 2: Banks of dinosaurs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he said banking is necessary, banks are not. To
Speaker 1: what extent could AI or fintech replace traditional banks.
Speaker 2: So I think, first of all, I remember him saying
Speaker 2: banks to dinosaurs. I spoke to about it in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven, and obviously he was dead wrong. We probably
Speaker 2: agree to that, but he's not wrong, you know we
Speaker 2: spoke earlier. The technology changes everything, and if anyone is
Speaker 2: complacent or arrogant or think that because you have a
Speaker 2: big position to day, you're going to position tomorrow, that's
Speaker 2: a mistake. Then you have this fine, what is banking.
Speaker 2: Someone's going to have to hold the money, someone's going
Speaker 2: to have to move the money, someone's to have to
Speaker 2: raise the money, someone's going have to do research around money.
Speaker 2: Those services will still be around, and hopefully we're doing
Speaker 2: it and using a lot of tech to do a
Speaker 2: better job at it. But I've always thought it's very
Speaker 2: possible that some tech thing, you know, distant intimidates the
Speaker 2: piece of that, and I've been quite public. Stripe did
Speaker 2: that with part of our payment system. We're still very good.
Speaker 2: PayPal did that with some of their stuff. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm square PayPal, so I want my own people to
Speaker 2: be cognizant. Yeah, we have competitors coming from different angles
Speaker 2: who you know, want a piece of our business, and
Speaker 2: we're perfectly willing to compete, and we're quite comfortable going
Speaker 2: to do. Okay, Well, Apple is.
Speaker 1: Going deeper into financial services. Do you worry about the
Speaker 1: Bank of Apple.
Speaker 2: I wrote about it. I wrote about it like five
Speaker 2: years ago.
Speaker 1: You know what is a bank?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm we're going to compete, so they have they
Speaker 2: have a tough competitor. But you know they hold money,
Speaker 2: move money, you could put money in a basically you
Speaker 2: know markets, but white labor, both checking account, credit card,
Speaker 2: you know all these things. Yeah, they're a form of
Speaker 2: a competitor. You know, we also partner with them, but
Speaker 2: I'm very used to partnering and competing with lots of people.
Speaker 1: Existential threat.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's an existential threat, but I think
Speaker 2: if we were complacent about it.
Speaker 1: Yes, I know you mentioned chat GPT. Have you tried it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: If I had my phone, i'd show you what do
Speaker 1: you use it for?
Speaker 2: I just ask you questions like what I don't remember
Speaker 2: which stanbilely chain gonna ask me?
Speaker 1: Did it give you any good answers, Yeah, about tech,
Speaker 1: What in tech are you most excited about?
Speaker 2: First, all tech is not new. I mean tech has
Speaker 2: been changing the world for one thousands of years, all
Speaker 2: different types and my whole life. You know. They invented
Speaker 2: mainframes and computers and minis and GPUs and internet and
Speaker 2: phones and things like that. They're all been exciting. They've
Speaker 2: all changed everything we do. Obviously, the latest thing is
Speaker 2: is cloud, digital and AI and it's all real.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you think it's all real absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, you already look at your phone, what
Speaker 2: it does today that it didn't do ten years ago,
Speaker 2: How it's LinkedIn et cetera, and a cloud brings unbelievably
Speaker 2: compute and power and elastics and analytics. And AI is
Speaker 2: what people say it's going to be. It's going to
Speaker 2: grow dramatically over time. So we're kind of the tip
Speaker 2: of the iceberg.
Speaker 1: You've got a top notch group investigating AI. What are
Speaker 1: they up to? What's the next level of finance you
Speaker 1: think AI can unlock?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I think the most important thing is that
Speaker 2: it's AI is real. We already have thousands of people
Speaker 2: doing it, top scientists around their own Manu level Velosa
Speaker 2: from who ran Carnegie Mellon machine learning. And it's a
Speaker 2: living breathing thing. So people want to answer, what's going
Speaker 2: to do. It's a living breathing thing. It's going to change.
Speaker 2: They're gonna be all different types of models and different
Speaker 2: types of tools and technology. But the way to think
Speaker 2: about it for us is every single process, so errors, trading, hedging, research,
Speaker 2: every app every database you can to be applying AI.
Speaker 2: So it might be as a copilot, it might be
Speaker 2: to replace humans, like you know, AI is doing all
Speaker 2: the equity headge for us. For the most part, it's
Speaker 2: idea generation, it's large language models, it's no taking while
Speaker 2: you're talking to someone and while it's taking notes and
Speaker 2: may actually say to you that, you know, here's the
Speaker 2: thing of interest to climb my Peterson, all error, all
Speaker 2: customer service, it's a little bit of everything.
Speaker 1: But it is going to replace some jobs, of course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but look, folks, people have to take a deep breath. Okay,
Speaker 2: technologies always replaced jobs. Your children live to one hundred
Speaker 2: and not have cancer because of technology, and literally they'll
Speaker 2: probably working three and a half days a week. So
Speaker 2: technology has done unbelievable things for mankind. But you know,
Speaker 2: planes crash, pharmacials get misused. There are negatives. This is
Speaker 2: one of the biggest negative of my view, is AI
Speaker 2: being used by bad people to do bad things, think
Speaker 2: of cyber warfare. And I do think you know, eventually
Speaker 2: have legal guardrails around. It's kind of hard to do
Speaker 2: because it's new, but it will add a huge value.
Speaker 2: And you know, for JP Morgan, if it replaces jobs,
Speaker 2: and we hope to redeploy people like at First Republic,
Speaker 2: you know, we've offered jobs to like ninety percent of
Speaker 2: the people they accepted. But we also so you know,
Speaker 2: we've told them as we some of those jobs are transitory,
Speaker 2: but we hire thirty thousand people a year, so we
Speaker 2: expect to be able to get them a job somewhere
Speaker 2: local and a different branch or a different function if
Speaker 2: we can do that, and we'll be doing that with
Speaker 2: any dislocation that takes place as a result of AI.
Speaker 1: So is there going to be a point where I
Speaker 1: can turn to chat JPM and say I have thirty
Speaker 1: years or I want to get rich quick? What should
Speaker 1: I do with my money?
Speaker 2: Well? Rich quick? I hope it tells you that you're crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but we in some ways can do a little bit
Speaker 2: ready today. And you know, usually if you look at
Speaker 2: like wealth plans that we have, which I think are
Speaker 2: quite good, they have a lot of AI embedded than that,
Speaker 2: or analytics embedded in that, and I soon I'll have
Speaker 2: more AI. All that A is going to do is
Speaker 2: know more about you, learn more about you, look at
Speaker 2: patterns and you know, look at successful things in the past,
Speaker 2: and yeah, so AI will be a huge aid to
Speaker 2: things like that. But I really wanted one day. AI
Speaker 2: can't be a stock picker because if it make just
Speaker 2: make believe I picked every stock, then every stock is
Speaker 2: perfectly priced. I would even AI think can't get that
Speaker 2: done right.
Speaker 1: Interesting, So do you see like a finance super app
Speaker 1: in our future or you know, a world where we
Speaker 1: could put our money on autopilot?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you already have that a little bit. So ten
Speaker 2: years ago I took all of our maybe eight years ago,
Speaker 2: the people ran retail, Gordon Smith and a whole team.
Speaker 2: I said, you're getting airplane and you're going to China.
Speaker 2: And they said, why we're American. I said, go to China,
Speaker 2: you know, And they went to Pingyan and ten Sen
Speaker 2: and we Chad and Ally pay and all that, and
Speaker 2: they had all the super apps. I made them come
Speaker 2: back and do a big chart of super apps all
Speaker 2: the services they do. So I think in America it
Speaker 2: won't be a super app. It'll be I'm gonna call
Speaker 2: mini super apps. So you might like, you can already
Speaker 2: do a lot of stuff with us around money, but
Speaker 2: that's why we do travel. It's an adjacency like your
Speaker 2: credit card. And this is what the tech folks did
Speaker 2: a very good job. Think about Stripe. They didn't say
Speaker 2: you just want to swipe the card and process the payment.
Speaker 2: You also want to give the customer data. You want
Speaker 2: to make it easier, give them an API so can
Speaker 2: embed it directly in their software. That was very smart.
Speaker 2: So we're trying to do that too. So it's not
Speaker 2: just a credit card. Now we want to offer you
Speaker 2: great travel and great hotels and great restaurants. And so
Speaker 2: there are all these adjacents here on everything we do
Speaker 2: that are tech driven and will be increasing the AI driven.
Speaker 2: So think of anything we offer you will be driven
Speaker 2: a lot by AI.
Speaker 1: You're revered for your long term view. So I just
Speaker 1: like to tick through a few topics quickly and get
Speaker 1: a quick sort of one sentence, long term view, what's
Speaker 1: your long view on China?
Speaker 2: It'll be okay, but we need really good American leadership
Speaker 2: to do that. And don't worry. They're not a ten
Speaker 2: foot giant. They have a lot of issues. America's got
Speaker 2: a lot of strains. I'd like the fact that American
Speaker 2: government's talking to them constantly. Now, crypto, if you mean
Speaker 2: crypto like bitcoin, I've always said it's a fraud, there
Speaker 2: are no hope for it. Well, I it's if they
Speaker 2: think they are a currency, there's no hope for it.
Speaker 2: It's a Ponzi scheme. It's a public, decentralized pot. If
Speaker 2: it's a crypto coin that can do something like a
Speaker 2: smart contract that has value, there will be smart contracts
Speaker 2: and blockchain works. So the exten cryptos accessing certain blockchain things, yeah,
Speaker 2: that might have some value.
Speaker 1: American leadership.
Speaker 2: The most important thing for the world in the next hundred.
Speaker 1: Years is it going to work out?
Speaker 2: Are we going to be okay America? You know, Warren
Speaker 2: Buffett would tell you one of the great things about
Speaker 2: Americas are constant resiliency, ability to adjust adjust. I mean
Speaker 2: we adjusted pretty quickly to bed COVID and then getting
Speaker 2: out of COVID and and American leadership moves pretty quickly,
Speaker 2: and you know, autocratic leadership gets stasis, so you got
Speaker 2: to look at Yeah, sometimes democracy's messy, but it also
Speaker 2: allows change.
Speaker 1: Jamie Diamond's legacy.
Speaker 2: Just I hope I made the world a better place.
Speaker 1: You're sure you're not running for office.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1: I just spoke to some friends who left the US
Speaker 1: who said if you ran, they'd come back.
Speaker 2: I got four more votes.
Speaker 1: What about AI? Could that be weaponized? Yeah, what's your
Speaker 1: biggest AI fear?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean Kerry ks Eric Schmidt wrote a book
Speaker 2: about you know, if it gets used in weapons, but
Speaker 2: you know, and that obviously could be terrifying if it's
Speaker 2: decided and who the enemy is, uh, and then you know,
Speaker 2: obviously it's gonna be used in cyber so I put cybers.
Speaker 2: You know. I think jaypie W was unbelievable that we've
Speaker 2: got great people in constant contact with the government. They
Speaker 2: would tell you we're very good at it. It's still
Speaker 2: it is really complicated, and AI will be used to breach,
Speaker 2: you know, through cyber and so bad guys use AI,
Speaker 2: and well, I think we need guardrails. No one knows
Speaker 2: exactly they should be yet, but it's not gonna stop
Speaker 2: bad guys. So we got to think through the guardrails here.
Speaker 2: You want to have play of innovation, need guardrails, like
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it'll tell you at the bottom of
Speaker 2: somebody that's generated by AI. But the bad guys still
Speaker 2: use it. I'm a little concerned about that. But we're
Speaker 2: gonna use it to help our customers our business.
Speaker 1: When you look back on your career, what stands out
Speaker 1: to you as sort of the top defining moments, like
Speaker 1: top three?
Speaker 2: Oh god, I know it's tough. There is There is
Speaker 2: no particular one because you know, other people going to
Speaker 2: write it and they look at successes and failures and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. Uh So again, most important family and
Speaker 2: I have three wonderful kids, two wonderful son in law's
Speaker 2: seven great grandkids. That that is the most important, you know.
Speaker 2: Second most important is my country, the United States of America.
Speaker 2: I'm red blooded, full throated, free enterprise American patriot and
Speaker 2: don't misunderstand that. And so therefore that is a big
Speaker 2: effort of mine personally, and my company stands behind that
Speaker 2: to the extent we should. And then in the inside
Speaker 2: of the company. Just I just hope people say, you know,
Speaker 2: we're going to miss the son of a bitumen. He's gone,
Speaker 2: and he made the world a better place, and he
Speaker 2: created opportunity and for all of us and our clients.
Speaker 1: What advice would you give your twenty year old self.
Speaker 2: It's the same advice, like, you have to work hard.
Speaker 2: I've got that doesn't but work smart. You know a
Speaker 2: lot of people they waste so much time and they
Speaker 2: don't think carefully. And there's that great quote. I'm sorry
Speaker 2: I wrote you such a long letter. I have time
Speaker 2: to write a short one that's respect to people. You know.
Speaker 2: You get your thoughts together, have a process in place
Speaker 2: for decision making. Don't allow yourself to become weaponized like
Speaker 2: at all, like you know and don't have it to
Speaker 2: the extent I have a temperate works against you. You always
Speaker 2: have to end up apologizing. Have a thought process around
Speaker 2: things that are complicated, and you'll get better of a life.
Speaker 2: You don't have to answer everything all at once.
Speaker 1: What else do you want to accomplish in the world,
Speaker 1: aside from making your bank succeed.
Speaker 2: I would like to do the best I can for
Speaker 2: the world and my country. While I'm around well.
Speaker 1: We appreciate you doing your best for us today. Jamie,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Emily, thank you. Good luck to everybody.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to this podcast edition of
Speaker 1: the Circuit. And if you want to watch my conversation
Speaker 1: with Jamie Diamond and my trip to London, just check
Speaker 1: out the full video episode. I'm Emily Chang. You can
Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Emily Chang TV.
Speaker 1: You can watch new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg
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Speaker 1: leaving us a review. I'm your host and executive producer.
Speaker 1: Our senior producers Lauren Ellis and Alan Jeffries. Our associate
Speaker 1: producer is Tyler Kotta. Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks
Speaker 1: so much for listening.