WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - February 17th, 2023 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:05.680 This is Bloomberg business Week Inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:09.400 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:13.640 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:18.600 Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim stinebec from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.759 The war in Ukraine is set to enter its second year, 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.360 and it's becoming clear that the cost to both sides 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.760 will turn out to be intolerably high. There's no outcome 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.920 that looks favorable to Moscow or Kiev. The longer the 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.479 conflict lasts, the higher the economic cost, and worse, the 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.479 higher the death toll will climb. For more, return to 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.880 Bloomberg News Automation editor and opinion columnist Leonid Bursitsky and 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.000 Bloomberg Business Week editor Joel Weber. Joel, I want to 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.920 kick it off with you. How does the magazine team 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.680 approach something like this, put this conflict into perspective twelve 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.520 months in? Well, we really have been looking at this 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.320 mark for a second, and the newsroom as a whole 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.400 is obviously very key on it that that one year 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.840 mark obviously is the thing that we can kind of 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:05.800 all look towards, and and we wanted it to be 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.319 a way of not only looking back on what's happened, 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.120 but also what it means to come. And that's why 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.559 we turned to leon And he'd done a cover story 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.679 for us earlier in the year, and we are last year, 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:17.640 and we wanted to return to him to sort of 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:22.000 to to get a sense of his perspective on it. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.839 Um as somebody who who is from Russia originally and 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.480 and left um and you know where we started where 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.559 with some numbers. The economic toll here has just been devastating, 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.080 But as Leonid writes, it's not only just on the 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:40.759 Ukrainian side, where obviously um Putin's invasion um has had 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.720 a huge impact, but it's also really beginning to show 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:45.839 up on the Russia side. So so leon had walked 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.160 us through your thesis and how things might unfold. Yet 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:53.480 the physical devastation is obviously on the Ukrainian side, all 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.520 of it. There's pretty much no more relates of damage 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.840 physical damage to to Russia. He would, uh, some shells 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:06.440 are reaching the Russian regions bordering on Ukraine. The actual 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.560 destruction is all on Ukrainian territory because the war is 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:15.280 being fought there. Um on the other hand, the sanctions 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:23.079 against Russia are pretty devastating. The Russian economy was worth. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:27.280 The Russian GDP was about one point eight trillion dollars 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:32.160 in two thousand twenty one, which made it much much 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.720 bigger than the Ukrainian economy, which was about two hundred 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:41.600 billion I think. So the Ukrainian GDP dropped one third 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:47.880 between thirty and one third uh for two. The Russian 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:52.400 GDP only dropped about three percent, and also it was 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.560 supposed to grow three percent, So the total is like 0:02:55.720 --> 0:03:00.480 six percent of the two thousand twenty one GDP. In 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:05.639 in absolute numbers, Russia has actually lost more than Ukraine 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.799 because the Russian economy was so much bigger to start 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.840 with before the war. And that is before we start 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:21.280 factoring in the loss of life, the immigration, the you know, 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.720 all of these factors that are also war related. Leon 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.000 the loss of life in terms of people who have 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.359 actually you know, died as a result of this war, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.520 but also people who are leaving the countries, whether it's 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.360 Russia or Ukraine. You do think about the lasting impact 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.240 of that that when we get fingers crossed on the 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.040 other side of this, what it ultimately means. Well, here 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.320 in Berlin, ware I live UM also as a Russian 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.920 immigrande basically who who left Russia on the war actually 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:55.920 began into thousand and fourteen. UM, we see a lot 0:03:56.080 --> 0:04:00.520 of huge influx of people from both Ukraine and Usha. 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:05.560 And a year's a year after the war began. Um, 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.600 some of these families have settled in and you know, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.320 the kids are in school. Uh, people have found jobs, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.560 they've learned the beginnings of the language. A lot of 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:22.279 the Ukrainian refugees too, are not going to go back. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:28.480 The German Migration Office recently held a poll that showed 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.560 about thirty percent of the Ukrainian refugees are not planning 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.159 on going back to Ukraine after the war is over. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:43.040 The actual percentage is probably higher, even apart from you know, 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:48.720 the actual war damage, the actual casualties, the loss of 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.520 the brain drain, the loss of talent, the loss of 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.320 active people, and I mean it is active people who 0:04:55.400 --> 0:05:00.480 leave under such circumstances. In Ukraine, it's overwhelmingly women and 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:06.599 and they've taken their kids with them, so that there's 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:11.119 going to be extended fallout. The human losses for both 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:16.039 economies will be substantial. So premature to even imagine what 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.760 the world here might look like. Imagine a world where 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.320 the battlefield we finally might have a version of the 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.880 truth or something. What would it look like on both 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:32.120 sides when this conflict eventually does. Yeah, yeah, we're definitely 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.800 looking at the well. The worst part of this is 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:41.880 that it's almost impossible to imagine and and being to 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.919 the military action at this point because there's really no 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.760 common ground. There's no way that the sides can agree 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:54.520 on anything until um, one of them is satisfied that 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:59.799 it's one and you know, victory for both sides seems 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:05.960 your remote at this point. But even just imagining something 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.599 has happened when the war has ended, the sanctions against 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:15.360 Russia will not be lifted again, even even with Russia loses. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.320 They can only be lifted if the Putting regime falls 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.520 uh and the successors are more pro Western and then 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:30.599 willing to uh you know, to to to take pretty 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:38.799 unimaginable steps um uh in terms of rejoining the Western world. 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:44.720 So these the sanctions are going to be around for 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:50.440 many years. The devastation in Ukraine requires hundreds of billions 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:56.599 of dollars of investment to just to rebuild what was destroyed. Um, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:01.159 it's not clear where that kind of money would come from. UM. 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:06.039 From Russian reparations. Uh, it's not clear how much in 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.760 terms of reparations Russia would actually be able to pay. UM. 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.600 Whether it's possible to confiscate any of the frozen Russian 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:21.920 international reserves to fund the rebuilding of Ukraine. UM. It's 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:27.600 not clear how interested Western governments will be in providing 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.840 more money once the war is over, especially the enormous 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:36.520 amounts that are required because the entire cities have been 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:40.040 wiped off the face of the earth. And you know 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:41.800 one thing I do wonder though, when you write about 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.080 in the story, I mean Russia's role in the energy 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.280 markets has given it a ton of money, right in 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.320 terms of supporting the war financially. Um. But again you've 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:54.840 got the embargoes right, and the pushback against the world 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.000 when it comes to Russian oil. Does that those somehow 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:04.119 help them in the future or time will tell UM, Well, 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:12.680 it's the embargoes are not really helping Ukraine in any way, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:20.000 because the Russian regime funds this war and then thinks 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:24.440 of everything else and there's still enough. It's still selling 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:29.800 enough oil to the likes of India, China. UM. You know, 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:35.679 Asian markets to fund the military action. UM. It's it's 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:40.559 not like a complete global embargo on Russian oil and 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.480 Russian energy resources would probably help, because then Russia would quickly, 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:50.480 relatively quickly run out of money. But as Russia retains 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:55.480 the ability to sell some energy resources h and also 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.400 things like fertilizer and agricultural products that are not sanctioned 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:05.480 at all, the money will go into the so called 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.760 special operation first and everything else second. Well, I have 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.760 to say, the way you end the story, you say, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.440 add it all up. It's increasingly evident that neither side 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.079 can emerge in economic winner. No matter what happens on 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.920 the battlefield, both will suffer crippling consequences long after the 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.400 last shells light. It's an incredible read, and as Joel mentioned, 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.120 like you really you put the numbers on it, but 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.360 you do wonder about the devastation and how no one 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.679 really wins um as a result of this war. Leona, 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.000 thank you so much, really appreciate it. Many thanks to 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:38.120 Bloomberg News automation editor and opinion calumnist Leonid Breschitsky for 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.680 his work on this week's cover story. Joell Webber, of course, 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:42.600 the editor of the magazine. He's going to stick with 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:44.839 us for the next segment. Be sure to check out 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.600 the magazine though, for additional coverage of the war in Ukraine, 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:51.520 including the shrinking armstock piles of both countries and a 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.800 photo essay on displaced Ukrainians. You're listening to the Bloomberg 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.120 Business Week podcast. Catch us live week days from two 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.800 to five m start on Bloomberg Radio, The Bloomberg Business 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.760 and You too. You can also listen live to our 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.839 flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa, Play Bloomberg E, 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:14.200 Love and Dirty. So as technology seeps into every walk 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.400 of life, an increasing proportion of Supreme Court decisions require 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.240 at least a basic literacy and subjects that may not 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.480 come naturally to the aging members. Not my words, they 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:25.880 are the words of Bloomberg's Gregg Store, who writes about it. 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.439 The upcoming new issue of Bloomberg Business Week out on 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.200 newstands later this week, already on the Bloomberg and at 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.400 Bloomberg dot Com slash business Week. Greg as you know, 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.160 Supreme Court reporter here at Bloomberg. He joins us from 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.360 our nine and nine one studio in Washington, d C. 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.199 Also with us. The editor of Bloomberg Business Week told Webber, 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.240 He's in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. I've often thought 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.280 about this, and we talked about this with lawmakers, like 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.640 do they understand kind of all the high tech stuff 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.800 that they're legislating. Well, that's what Greg came to us with. 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.040 UM and this is just one of those ones where 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:57.760 he really picked up the phone. He was very excited. 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.199 He was like, Joel Children, I got to talk to 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.520 you about this idea. UM. And and it turns out that, UM, 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.480 this is not a totally new idea, but it's really 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.880 relevant right now because of the case they're gonna here 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:13.679 next year, which we will basically focus on section thirty 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:17.160 and what that means for the future of the internet. UM, 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.640 so rewind the clock a little bit for us, Greg, 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.480 What what happens when Elena Kagan and Stephen Brier sit 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.560 down and play Grand Theft Auto like they did about 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:31.000 a decade ago. We just soak in that moment for Yeah, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:32.480 I wish I could have been a fly on the 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:34.920 wall for that that one. Yeah, this is a case 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.360 about a decade ago. It was a California law that 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.679 banned the sale of violent video games to minors, and 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.360 so Justice Brier, who was then in his early seventies, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.920 and Justice Kagan decided, we don't know a whole lot 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.200 about violent video games, so we're going to check them out. 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.040 And so, uh, they had it set up in Justice 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:57.400 Briar's chambers and went down there and played Grand Theft 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.840 Auto to try to learn a little bit about it. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.920 As it turns out, according to Justice Kagan, she was 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:04.920 a lot more enthusiastic about it than he was. He 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.760 thought it was really awful and disgusting, and she was like, 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:12.160 next round, next round. Uh, you know, we have more 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.920 we have more reporting to do on Kagan's video game 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.360 obsession if it if it became that, you know, including 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.440 maybe what console she's gonna do. But to keep it 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.600 back on the Supreme Court, Um, you know, we're obviously 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.720 Briar is not going to be on the bench when 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.600 they hear this case next week. But what what do 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.880 they have to do in order to get ready for 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:32.920 a big case like the one they're going to hear 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.600 when maybe they don't have as much expertise as people 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.760 in the industry might. Well, the short answer is that 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.680 they do a lot of research with a lot of 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:43.800 help from people around the court. You know, all of 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.520 them have for twenty something are generally twenty something law 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.560 clerks who can help them out. They've also got a 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.959 whole courthouse full of people. So there's a case back 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:57.200 in the late nineteen nineties having to do with restrictions 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.000 on posting adult oriented material in the way that children 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.880 might see them. And so I was back before the 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.280 court was really connected to the Internet. And so they 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.319 set up a computer in the library where justices and 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.160 their clerks would go there and and UH, you know, 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.680 put in searches to see if you know, pornography popped 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.120 up or something like that. Uh. In a more recent case, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.280 I actually talked to Justice Bryer had interviewed him last week, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.800 and he said, this is a copyright case involving Google 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:25.720 and Oracle, and he said he just spent a lot 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.040 of time trying to understand the Java programming language and 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.439 how it worked, because that was central to the case 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:38.040 whether Google infringed Oracles copyright, and UH spent a lot 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.280 of time. He has a very lengthy explanation in his 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.640 opinion siding with Google. UH that for the most part, 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.400 was pretty well received in terms of understanding the technology 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:48.280 at issue in the case, I would love to be 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:49.920 on the fly, a fly on the wall when they 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.640 tried to teach lawmakers about TikTok and the importance of 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:56.760 that moving forward. You got to open it and spent 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.800 about five hours a day on it. But in all seriousness, 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.360 you know, to be fair to Scout is this is 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.280 an issue that plagues a lot of lawmakers. We always 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.800 hear these funny sound bites from members of Congress too, 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.000 when they're you know, in a social media hearing or 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.480 crypto hearing. For example, we remember dog Coin from the 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.560 ft X hearing. The Internet runs on tubes most yes, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.440 exactly exactly. So how how does scout is compared to 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.080 Congress when it comes to understanding the Internet. Yes, that's 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.880 a good question, Madison. There there are certainly some examples 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.720 of the Supreme Court saying similar type of things. Maybe 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:30.680 not quite as bad as you know, the Internet being 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.840 a collection of tubes. But you know, over the years, 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.880 the Supreme Court is asked some questions during arguments that 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.800 suggests yea, they may not understand the technology. But I 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.240 think there are a couple of important points. One the 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.680 Court has gotten younger. So you have more justices who 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.680 are uh, you know, in their fifties rather than in 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.520 their seventies and eighties, we maybe understand the technology a 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.800 little better. Uh, they have kids as well. And secondly, 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.880 regardless of the age of the justices, for the most part, 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.480 when I talk to people actual almost entirely when I 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:06.160 talk to people, they said, despite some occasionally uh confused 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.280 sounding questions, the court generally does a pretty good job 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:10.720 by the end of the day when it puts out 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.200 the really important thing, which are its opinions. And no 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.080 doubt that does get some help from the law clerks 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.680 who maybe understand the technology better. Uh. But but for 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.840 the most part, the court, based on the people I 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.800 talked to them, my reporting gets better grades than than 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.520 a lot of members of Congress do. Greg. So, what's 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.240 at stake with the case that they're going to hear 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.040 next weekend? And what exactly is it? What are they 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.600 gonna hear? Yeah, so this is as you said, this 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.840 is an argument they're going to have on a Tuesday 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.320 of next week Tuesday, and a somewhat less important case 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.120 case on on Wednesday. The Tuesday case is all about 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.200 the saying called section to thirty, which has been around 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.200 since It basically shields social media companies other Internet companies 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.520 from liability because of posts put up by their users 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.320 by third parties. And that has basically served as a 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.640 very broad shield for Internet companies. And this is the 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:09.240 case involving a lawsuit by the victim, the family of 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:14.840 a terrorism victim saying Google, through its YouTube service UH 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:20.800 basically recommended terrorists content, terrorists videos and provided support to ISIS. 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.120 And the question is whether that lawsuit can can even 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.760 get in the door. If the Supreme Court says yes, 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.960 it can get in the door, we're carving out of 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.800 a bit of an exception to section to thirty. Computer companies, 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.040 social media companies say, we are really worried that there 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.400 will be no stopping that and and that that will 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.400 force us to be a lot more restrictive about the 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.600 content that our members are users can put up on 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.960 the Internet because we're worried about being sued over it. Okay, So, 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.440 and what does industry have to say about this? And 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.800 this won't be the only two thirty case that they hear, 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.600 right well, so, so they have a two thirty case 0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.720 on Tuesday, As they said, there's a second case on 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.120 when Day involving Twitter, and it's actually kind of a 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.119 related question about whether the family of a terrorist victim 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.440 can sue under this law that's it's called the Anti 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.359 Terrorism Act. Uh. The industry is basically saying, this case 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:18.199 has the potential to really transform the Internet, and not 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.560 in a good way. It will force us to be 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.959 it could force us to be censors to a large degree. 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.960 It could restrict speech on the Internet. And they are 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.119 arguing that there's going to be a carve out in 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.080 section two thirty. This is really something that Congress ought 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:34.919 to be able to do because it can be a 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.639 lot more precise rather than the kind of the blunt 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.560 instrument of a Supreme Court opinion. Let's just hope they 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.800 haven't been playing video game exactly. Oh my god, that image, 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.040 Um Gregg Store, thank you so much. He is, of 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.359 course Supreme Court reporter Here at Bloomberg News from or 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:51.520 Not and I want Studio in Washington, DC. Are thanks 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.240 to Jill Weber, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week. This story, 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.680 as we mentioned in the upcoming new issue of Business Week, 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.280 out on newsstands already on the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:07.000 dot com. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.760 Catch us live week days from two to five pm 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.720 Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business App, and you too. 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.680 You can also listen live to our flagship New York 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:21.840 station Just Say Alexa, Play Bloomberg, e Love and Verdi. Well. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:26.280 You might recall last week Ross Gerber, a vocal Tesla shareholder, 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.000 Tesla car owner frequent guest, on our air, saying he 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.560 will pursue a board seat on the electric vehicle maker's 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.160 board well at the time, also saying that it's time 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.720 for Tesla to grow up. Gerber's firm holding about fourty 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.359 shares as at the end of last year of Tesla. 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.760 That's according to our data. Ross's co founder president CEO 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.960 Gerber Kawasaki Wealth and Investment Management. He joins us lucky 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:50.840 for us via zoom from Santa Monica, California. Hey, Ross, 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:52.720 good to have you here. Your fund. By the way, 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.840 your e t F is that more than fourteen percent. 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.359 You're to date, Tesla's your biggest shareholder, at least according 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:02.359 to our data. Um to us about pursuing a board 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.720 seat on Tesla, why do you want to do it? 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.040 And what progress have you made towards that end? Well, 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.920 I think mostly it's because I feel like it's time 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.520 for Tesla's board to sort of take a more active 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.880 role in some of the main issues that involve Tesla, 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.000 which seemed to be I don't know, sort of ignored. 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.680 And a lot of founder led companies, you know, grow 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:28.920 to be very, very successful, um, and then they reach 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.080 a point like where Tesla has, where certain things just 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.240 need to change. And and I don't think these are 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.200 you know, bad things. I think it's a good thing, 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.640 um for Tesla to focus on, you know, really three 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.359 main things that you know, I'm most concerned about, which is, 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.120 you know, public relations, marketing, and lobbying so that things 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.960 like full self driving you know, are you know, appropriately 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:55.720 understood by the public UM and the risks and rewards UM. Secondly, 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.959 i'd love to see Tesla focus on the customer, the consume. 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:04.040 Humer is constantly having bad experiences with Tesla service and 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.240 and and I just think somebody needs to really be 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.480 focused on the customer over at Tesla. And then thirdly, 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:13.560 a secession plan. Um. Ellen is clearly running Twitter here 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.359 and that's his priority, which is fine, But if something 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.159 ever happened to Eilani. I mean, he is working, you know, 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.119 like twenty hours a day, you know, you know, what's 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.280 what's the plan for Tesla? So these things don't seem 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.480 to be answered from Tesla, and and so now I'm 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.280 pushing for board see because I think it's time for 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:33.840 there to be some accountability to these issues. So Ross, 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.439 you mentioned the PR situation when it comes to Tesla. 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.720 To what extent are you concerned about Ellen's impact on 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.280 the company's PR? Well, I think that you know, for 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.560 a long time, we got a lot of free advertising 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.840 out of Ellen, and there was a perception of Ellen 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.879 that was much more positive today now that Ellen runs 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.200 Twitter and has taken many political positions, and I think 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.960 it's his right to do that. But it's sly unfortunate 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.720 how many customers and shareholders here at at least that 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.320 I know, and which are a lot that really have 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.760 now taken a negative you towards Ellen. And it's really 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.480 kind of sad to me. And the bottom line is 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.120 it's time for Tesla to build its brand around Tesla 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:20.400 and about you know, the values that Tesla really stands 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.800 for and versus what Elon's values are, and and so 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.080 I don't really have any issue with his per se values. 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.239 But we're in the selling car business, and you know, 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.440 I don't know if that's what he's thinking every day 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:34.399 when he gets up in tweets. So I think Tesla 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:38.359 can take an active role in shaping the public perception 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.760 of its wonderful products and services. Hey listen are reporting 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.160 by our Red Ludlow and Caroline Hyde. Um noted how 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.280 you have a good relationship with UM some of the 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.000 biggest shareholders in Tesla, someone who I've talked to a lot, 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.879 Kathy would have our investment and also barely Gifford. Have 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.159 you have they said that they would support you in 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.760 your pursuit of a seat. Well, I haven't talked to 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:01.639 any of the institutions yet because I haven't. You know, 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.159 I'm still officially got to send out my letter and 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.360 get this going with you will do that right now? Yeah, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.360 I will definitely be doing that, and and we're certainly 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.280 And that's one of the reasons I'm running is just 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.320 so that there is an option for people. I'm not 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.280 like doing this for any like personal gain. Let me 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.280 tell you, it's a very time consuming process and and 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.239 most of my clients and and friends, you know, are 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:26.960 sort of like, we want you focusing on our money, 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.520 not running Tesla or dealing with Tesla. And that said, 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.919 you know, I just feel compelled that there needs to 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.760 be a choice for investors, individual investors, so that they 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:39.520 actually even know somebody on the board. You know, a 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:41.879 lot of people are like, oh, we support Tesla's board currently. 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:43.520 I'm like, do you even know who's on the board 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.040 And they're like no, And would you like, would you 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:48.840 like to see there's another person. Ellen's obviously on the board, 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.040 but Kimball Musk is also on the board. Would you 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:53.399 like to do you think it is just a board 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:58.240 of people who really like Elon? And there do I 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:01.160 I do? And granted I really like Elon too, so 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.640 it's you know, I'm not I'm not a negative person here. 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:08.000 This is a friendly activist. I'm trying to help Tesla 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:11.160 in a way that they're not good at. Okay, so there, 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.200