1
00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,320
Speaker 1: John Jones and Deja Ruiz had three children while working

2
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,240
Speaker 1: on their high school diplomas. After celebrating Deja's mother's birthday

3
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 1: on March eighteenth, twenty ten, the young family laid down

4
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 1: to sleep. Despite the expected waking and feeding that comes

5
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,720
Speaker 1: with six month old twins, the night was ordinary. When

6
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,599
Speaker 1: Deja left for school at eight am, John propped some

7
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 1: bottles on a blanket near twins Jada and Jasmine and

8
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,440
Speaker 1: went back to sleep. Then, when John woke again at

9
00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,360
Speaker 1: nine forty am, turned on cartoons for his son and

10
00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,159
Speaker 1: went to attend to the twins. Jada was unresponsive in

11
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 1: a panic. He called family and nine one one. The

12
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 1: dispatcher coached him through CPR until first responders arrived and

13
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 1: took over. He did everything a concerned father would do,

14
00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 1: But when testing was done at the hospital, doctors found

15
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:57,240
Speaker 1: what they mistakenly thought was conclusive evidence of lethal child abuse. However,

16
00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 1: over the next decade, the science that they used to

17
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,360
Speaker 1: support John's conviction has crumbled under the weight of reality.

18
00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,679
Speaker 1: Had a jury heard all the other now logical explanations

19
00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,520
Speaker 1: for the symptoms present in little Jada's body, John Jones

20
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 1: never would have served a day of his fifteen to

21
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:32,039
Speaker 1: life prison sentence. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom.

22
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. That's me,

23
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,640
Speaker 1: of course, your host, and today we're here to tell

24
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,840
Speaker 1: you the heartbreaking story of John Jones, who was just

25
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,960
Speaker 1: seventeen years old when his six month old daughter, Jada

26
00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,760
Speaker 1: Ruiz died, and shortly thereafter, the tragedy was compounded by

27
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,559
Speaker 1: the hubris of some in the medical establishment and legal

28
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,480
Speaker 1: system armed with the junk science of shaken baby syndrome.

29
00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,360
Speaker 1: And today I'm joined by a phenomenal co host. Avid

30
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 1: Listeners will remember Greg Glod from the Junk Science episode

31
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,280
Speaker 1: on Roadside drug Testing. He is the Criminal Justice Fellow

32
00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,720
Speaker 1: at Americans for Prosperity. Greg. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

33
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,600
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Jason, thank you so much for allowing

34
00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,280
Speaker 2: me to co host. You and I have gotten close

35
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,000
Speaker 2: over the last couple of months. I've been working on

36
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,600
Speaker 2: Criminal Justice Reformed since about twenty fifteen now, and to

37
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,360
Speaker 2: be able to do this today and co host is,

38
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 2: you know, really an honor. So I really thank you again.

39
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,040
Speaker 1: Well, I'm the one who really should feel honored, and

40
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: not just because you've joined us, but also because with

41
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,320
Speaker 1: us is one of the world's leading experts in one

42
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 1: of the most troubling aspects of our criminal legal system,

43
00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,760
Speaker 1: shaken baby syndrome. Now, she was also featured on Wrongful

44
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 1: Conviction Junk Science when we covered this subject. The executive

45
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 1: director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Kate Judson,

46
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

47
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,520
Speaker 3: Hi, thank you so much, Jason, and Hi Greg.

48
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,920
Speaker 1: And last but not least, we have with us staff

49
00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,560
Speaker 1: attorney at the Ohio Innocence Project, the man who's representing

50
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 1: John Jones, Donald Caster. Donald, Welcome to ronfel Conviction. Thanks

51
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 1: for being.

52
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 4: Here, Hi, Jason, thank you for having me on.

53
00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,239
Speaker 1: And we'll be joined very soon by John Jones. Was

54
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 1: going to be calling in from Lebanon Correctional Facility in Ohio.

55
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 1: But first let's get a little background on what John

56
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 1: was up against when Jada became unresponsive.

57
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,280
Speaker 2: Kate, can you give a brief history on shaken baby syndrome.

58
00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,079
Speaker 2: You know where it came from, this hypothesis, and then

59
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,800
Speaker 2: how did it start to enter its way into the

60
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 2: criminal justice system as a viable scientific theory to convict caretakers.

61
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,360
Speaker 2: Of murder.

62
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,600
Speaker 3: Sure Greg Shaking baby syndrome was originally proposed as a

63
00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,160
Speaker 3: hypothesis to explain a phenomenon that a pediatric neurosurgeon in

64
00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,760
Speaker 3: Great Britain was seeing in his patients. He would sometimes

65
00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,440
Speaker 3: have infants who died or were seriously ill without a

66
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 3: clear cause and without external trauma, and yet the internal

67
00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,160
Speaker 3: features looked a lot like kids who had suffered some

68
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 3: kind of traumatic injury. So those findings were subdural hematoma,

69
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 3: which is bleeding between the coverings of the brain, retinal hemorrhage,

70
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:08,880
Speaker 3: which is bleeding at the back of the eye, and

71
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 3: encephalopathy and cerebral edema, which sort of acts together as

72
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,799
Speaker 3: one leg of what sometimes people call the triad. Cerebral

73
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 3: edema is brain swelling and encephalopathy is brain dysfunction. And

74
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,520
Speaker 3: so doctor guth Kelch, the piatric neurosurgeon, was seeing these

75
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,080
Speaker 3: findings in kids and they looked injured on the inside

76
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 3: but not on the outside. And he thought that one

77
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,599
Speaker 3: reason for that might be a common disciplinary technique in

78
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 3: his home of Northern England in the seventies, which was shaking.

79
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 3: And so what doctor goth Kelch said is that these

80
00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,960
Speaker 3: medical findings could be due to shaking, and doctor goth

81
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 3: Kelch wasn't claiming to have the answers, but rather that

82
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,360
Speaker 3: he was hypothesizing about what might be causing these findings.

83
00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,039
Speaker 3: So that started to evolve. A radiologist in New York,

84
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,440
Speaker 3: John Caffey, built on that and he published articles saying

85
00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,800
Speaker 3: the same thing, right, that parents should be with infants.

86
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 3: But neither of these doctors suggested that the medical findings

87
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 3: that they associated with shaking were exclusively diagnostic to shaking,

88
00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 3: nor did they say that there was a reliable way

89
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,080
Speaker 3: to place blame on a caregiver when a child had

90
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 3: these medical findings.

91
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,719
Speaker 2: Right, and so where was the switch then, from this

92
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,200
Speaker 2: just being you know, a hypothesis or an unexplained phenomena

93
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:29,719
Speaker 2: to a verifiable medical diagnosis that actually began convicting visuals

94
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:30,880
Speaker 2: of murder of a child.

95
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,240
Speaker 3: And there's a little bit of a gap in understanding

96
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 3: between the mid to late nineteen seventies and then when

97
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,680
Speaker 3: we start to see these cases appear in published appellate

98
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 3: decisions in the late eighties, and we started to see

99
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,600
Speaker 3: prosecutors and pediatricians in particular also pathologists saying that when

100
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,480
Speaker 3: children had this collection of findings, which is sometimes called

101
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,600
Speaker 3: a triad of findings or a constellation of medical findings

102
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 3: that shaking could be diagnosed. And that's when it comes

103
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,040
Speaker 3: into the criminal legal system and we start to see

104
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,880
Speaker 3: the trajector that we're on today where parents are wrongfully

105
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,880
Speaker 3: accused based on only the existence of a particular set

106
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,880
Speaker 3: of medical findings. And I mean to be totally clear,

107
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,760
Speaker 3: there's no debate about whether abusive shaking, violent shaking of

108
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,880
Speaker 3: an infant is dangerous. It is, and no one should

109
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,839
Speaker 3: do it. The debate is really whether shaking reliably explains

110
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,719
Speaker 3: the findings that are often attributed to it, whether shaking

111
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,719
Speaker 3: can be diagnosed as the cause of those findings.

112
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,240
Speaker 2: Kate, and doing my research for this, there is a

113
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,720
Speaker 2: large concentration of these shaking baby syndrome cases in the

114
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,600
Speaker 2: state of Ohio, and so I just wanted to see

115
00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,440
Speaker 2: if you had any explanation behind why Ohio kind of

116
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,440
Speaker 2: had a higher rate of shaking baby syndrome cases than

117
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,080
Speaker 2: many other jurisdictions across the nation.

118
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,280
Speaker 3: Researchers aren't one hundred percent sure why some places have

119
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,760
Speaker 3: higher concentrations of diagnoses of SPS than others. It's probably

120
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 3: a combination of factors, but some of those factors include

121
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 3: prosecutors who are particularly aggressive in going after these are

122
00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,480
Speaker 3: kinds of accusations, the media attention in certain cases receive

123
00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,800
Speaker 3: in certain media markets, and the child abuse pediatricians or

124
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 3: forensic pathologists who work on these cases. If they have

125
00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 3: a particular belief or bent, then there are more likely

126
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,720
Speaker 3: to be more accusations of shaking within that person's jurisdiction

127
00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 3: or area of control. And Ohio is one of those places.

128
00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,120
Speaker 1: And now we'll go to Lebanon Correctional Facility to speak

129
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 1: with a young man who was doing his best as

130
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 1: a young teenager to raise three kids while finishing high

131
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 1: school in the third largest shaken baby syndrome epicenter in

132
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,880
Speaker 1: the country, Akron, Ohio.

133
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,080
Speaker 5: Hello, this is a prepaid debit call from an inmate.

134
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 5: It's e Lebanon Correctional Facility. To accept this call, press

135
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 5: zero to prevent This call is from a correction facility

136
00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 5: and is subject to monitoring and recording.

137
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,200
Speaker 2: Thank you for using GTL.

138
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 1: John.

139
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is John John.

140
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 1: Like I always say, I'm glad you're here with us,

141
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 1: but I'm sorry because of the reason you're here, or

142
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 1: more to the point, because of where you are.

143
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me.

144
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,640
Speaker 1: So I wanted you to take us back, if you will,

145
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 1: to your life before this absolute horror happened. You were

146
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:19,880
Speaker 1: growing up an Akron.

147
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,440
Speaker 6: I grew up with four sisters who struggled. I grew

148
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,680
Speaker 6: up poor, he moved around a lot. My mom had

149
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,840
Speaker 6: some struggles drug addiction, alcohol addiction. My father as well

150
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,200
Speaker 6: had the same struggles, regardless of what she was going

151
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,720
Speaker 6: through her own personal problems. My mom always was around,

152
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,720
Speaker 6: she was always with us, but my Grandmather ended up

153
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,920
Speaker 6: getting custody on me when I was real young. She

154
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,600
Speaker 6: just put us on a path to try to be

155
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 6: as successful as we could growing love. I did real

156
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,320
Speaker 6: good at school, always was like an honor roll student.

157
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,679
Speaker 6: Once I became a teenager, and that's when I came

158
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 6: into contact with my child's mother. I met her December sixteenth,

159
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,960
Speaker 6: my fourteenth birthday, and my son was conceived nine days

160
00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:01,000
Speaker 6: later on Christmas Eve, Christmas night. So now I'm fourteen,

161
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,319
Speaker 6: I'm expecting a child on the way. I knew that

162
00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,640
Speaker 6: I had a responsibility now, so school no longer was

163
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 6: a priority. My bid what I needed to do to

164
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,560
Speaker 6: provide for him as time progressed, me and her eventually

165
00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 6: began to establish a relationship get closer. A couple of

166
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,959
Speaker 6: years later, that's when my twins were and see Jada

167
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,120
Speaker 6: and jazz Man. We ended up getting an apartment together

168
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 6: on our own. My grandmother was still technically my legal guardian,

169
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,040
Speaker 6: so I lived with them, but I spent most nights

170
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,080
Speaker 6: with my child's mother just to be around my children.

171
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,719
Speaker 6: Growing up. My father was always in my life, but

172
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 6: like I said, he was a battling with addiction. But

173
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 6: even though I loved him unconditionally, he just wasn't the

174
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,200
Speaker 6: best that he could have been. So that made me

175
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,680
Speaker 6: want to make sure I was the best I could

176
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,319
Speaker 6: have been. Regardless of how old I was, regardless of school,

177
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:50,800
Speaker 6: whatever I was going through, I was going to be

178
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,040
Speaker 6: present every single day in their life no matter what,

179
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,200
Speaker 6: regardless of the status of me and their mother's relationship,

180
00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,120
Speaker 6: how healthy or how unhealthy it was, I was going

181
00:09:59,200 --> 00:09:59,959
Speaker 6: to make sure I was there.

182
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,080
Speaker 1: My key is no matter what, and that's admirable. And

183
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 1: so you, your children's mother, Desa, your son Tyshan, and

184
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 1: the twins Jada and Jasmine all moved into an apartment together.

185
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 1: Dajo was eighteen. You're seventeen, and you were both finishing

186
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 1: high school through an alternative school for young parents, and

187
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,439
Speaker 1: somehow you're making it work, which brings us to March nineteenth,

188
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 1: twenty ten.

189
00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 6: The night before that morning it was actually her mother's birthday.

190
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,400
Speaker 6: Everybody spent some time together. It was a cool little

191
00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,720
Speaker 6: vibe though. Everybody was on the same page. And we

192
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,319
Speaker 6: went to sleep like any other day. We slept down

193
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 6: in the living room. I slept on the couch with

194
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,880
Speaker 6: my daughter Jazz, and she slept down on the floor

195
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,120
Speaker 6: with my daughter at Lana, and my son was down

196
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,960
Speaker 6: there with us as well. But throughout the night she

197
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:52,040
Speaker 6: was waking me up, complaining about positioning or beating or

198
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,920
Speaker 6: you know, my daughter might have been hungry or whatever.

199
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,160
Speaker 6: She was looking me up throughout the night. But it

200
00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,120
Speaker 6: was just a typical day. And then that morning she

201
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 6: had a test that she had to go take right

202
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:02,959
Speaker 6: and from what.

203
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,200
Speaker 1: I understand, you both fed the twins at five am

204
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 1: and then went back to sleep. Then Dasia woke up

205
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,839
Speaker 1: at seven am to get ready for school and left

206
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:12,360
Speaker 1: around eight.

207
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 6: So I get up walking through the door, you know,

208
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,600
Speaker 6: wishing a look on her task, give her a kiss.

209
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,320
Speaker 6: She go out at this point, my son's still asleep,

210
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,160
Speaker 6: my daughter's around the couch, they laying down. It's early

211
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 6: in the morning, so I'm still tired. I go up

212
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,560
Speaker 6: to my daughter's I popped the bottles. I learned later

213
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 6: on now that this wasn't a smart thing to duel,

214
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,600
Speaker 6: just because of the safety concerns with a new warm

215
00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,959
Speaker 6: but at the time I really wasn't aware of it,

216
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,199
Speaker 6: and it was more of like a convenient thing away

217
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,040
Speaker 6: of me going back to sleep, but also feeding them

218
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,440
Speaker 6: if they were having So I placed the bottles up

219
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,719
Speaker 6: on the blanket and I prop them up, so I

220
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,760
Speaker 6: put them right there, just so when they do wake up,

221
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,040
Speaker 6: the bottle be right there, they'll be able to feed.

222
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,959
Speaker 6: I can be able to sleep about another hour or

223
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,520
Speaker 6: two whatever, They'd be all right, everybody'd be cool. We

224
00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 6: did this every day, multiple time, so it was just

225
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 6: another I said day.

226
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 1: But it's at this point, between eight and nine forty

227
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 1: am that, according to the state's theory and what passed

228
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,160
Speaker 1: for expert testimony, that you allegedly abused your daughter Jada

229
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 1: in such a way that it caused all of these

230
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 1: supposed injuries or symptoms that were later observed at the hospital,

231
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,920
Speaker 1: the same ones that Kate had mentioned earlier that make

232
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,560
Speaker 1: up the triad of shaken baby syndrome. But as we

233
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,480
Speaker 1: now know, there are a myriad of medical conditions that

234
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,679
Speaker 1: can and do cause these symptoms in addition to an

235
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,120
Speaker 1: accidental or intentional traumatic event, and even in those events,

236
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,800
Speaker 1: it's important to note that a child may be lucid

237
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,320
Speaker 1: up to seventy two hours or even more before the

238
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 1: symptoms or injuries become a parent. And in this case,

239
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,800
Speaker 1: they became apparent to you when you checked on Jada

240
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,760
Speaker 1: and Jasmine at around nine forty am on that faithful,

241
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,520
Speaker 1: awful day. And you know, as a father myself, it's

242
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 1: every p's worst nightmare. So at nine am you woke up,

243
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 1: put on cartoons for Tyshan, and go to check on

244
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,040
Speaker 1: your daughters, only to find that Jada was unresponsive.

245
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,080
Speaker 6: That was the scariest moment in my life. That was

246
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 6: the worst day of my life. I didn't know what

247
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,440
Speaker 6: to do in that moment. She wasn't breathing, she wasn't moving,

248
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,199
Speaker 6: she wasn't responsors at all. I instantly get on the phone.

249
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 6: My first reaction was to call our family because my

250
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,640
Speaker 6: daughters were born with acid reflex. They when they feed,

251
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,080
Speaker 6: they would regurgitate the food. It would come up their moths.

252
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 6: Sometimes it would come up their mouth. It didn't happen

253
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,920
Speaker 6: every time, but it happened frequently. So at first I

254
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 6: was wondering if this was the case. So I actually

255
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,280
Speaker 6: called my mom and I tell them what's going on.

256
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:41,640
Speaker 6: But I'm panickings, So I didn't want to stay on

257
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,400
Speaker 6: the phone with them too long because I'm realizing she's

258
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 6: not breathing or nothing. But I called her family as

259
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 6: well to let them know. I get off the phone.

260
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,719
Speaker 6: I called nine one one tell them the whole situation is.

261
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 6: I'm listening to the nine one one operator. She explained

262
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,360
Speaker 6: to me how to do the test compressions and the

263
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,559
Speaker 6: mouth to mouth. I tried. I did everything I could,

264
00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,520
Speaker 6: and nothing was working. Like so at this point, I'm

265
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 6: becoming more here, more upset. I'm crying, and I'm just

266
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 6: waiting to seem like a second for ever. They finally arrived.

267
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 6: They grab her, they take her out, and I began

268
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,960
Speaker 6: to speak to the detectives or whatever. I'm telling them.

269
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 6: Everything pretty much that I'm telling you is my recognition

270
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 6: that that night in the morning, nothing really stood out

271
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 6: to me. From that point, family members thought arrived and

272
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 6: everybody's time. We all head down to the hospital, and

273
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 6: then a couple hours later, that's when we hear the

274
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 6: doctor's opinion about what they believed was the cause of everything.

275
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 4: When the first responders arrived, they didn't see any signs

276
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 4: of any external injuries. They didn't see any bruising or

277
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 4: obvious deformities or bone fractures. They were under the impression

278
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,680
Speaker 4: that Jada might have suffered from sins or sudden infant

279
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,000
Speaker 4: death syndrome. And the police see John doing what you

280
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 4: would expect a distraught father to be doing. It's an

281
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 4: officer named Dennis Bard starts taking pictures to the scene.

282
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,400
Speaker 4: There are blankets that are collect One of the things

283
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 4: that's not collected is the bottles that were feeding two

284
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:05,920
Speaker 4: of the children.

285
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 2: And that becomes critical later on in the state's theory

286
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:08,880
Speaker 2: of the case.

287
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 4: The bottles are important, at least according to the state,

288
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 4: because one of the doctors who testified on behalf of

289
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 4: the state told the jury that how much milk and

290
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,920
Speaker 4: formula was in the bottle would have been really important

291
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,200
Speaker 4: in establishing the timing of abuse. Because, according to the

292
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 4: state's doctor, Jada wouldn't have been able to consume anything

293
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 4: from the bottle after suffering the type of injuries that

294
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,640
Speaker 4: they believe Jada had suffered.

295
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: And what we now know, and this is so important,

296
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 1: is that a child can experience seventy two hours or

297
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 1: more of lucidity after a traumatic event, whether accidental or intentional,

298
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,080
Speaker 1: which it's not entirely clear that this is in fact

299
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 1: what happened to cause these symptoms. And I say symptoms

300
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:58,160
Speaker 1: because a myriad of medical conditions can cause what happened

301
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,520
Speaker 1: to Jada to happen. We're getting a little bit of

302
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves here. So the first responders see this

303
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 1: situation as a non criminal death, not a homicide. So

304
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 1: the bottle was just left there and the lead investigator,

305
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 1: Detective Shady, drove John to the hospital.

306
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:20,160
Speaker 4: Detective Shady also does a very brief interview of John

307
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,040
Speaker 4: at the time. Detective Shady and John go to the

308
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 4: hospital following the ambulance, and once they get to the hospital,

309
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 4: they find out that Jada had been successfully resuscitated. John

310
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 4: makes phone calls to family members to let them know

311
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 4: that things were at least looking a little bit better

312
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 4: now that they were at the hospital. And then doctors

313
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 4: at the hospital start to do medical tests. They do

314
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 4: a cat scan, other tests, and again, ultimately the doctors

315
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 4: began to believe that there were actual injuries to Jada,

316
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 4: and in fact, once they got to the hospital, John

317
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 4: was confronted by a doctor who did not testify at

318
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 4: trial dificant to the case, a doctor Darryl Steiner, who

319
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,760
Speaker 4: came in and told John and the detective that Jada

320
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,679
Speaker 4: had suffered from what he called non accidental injuries. The

321
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,040
Speaker 4: hospital staff also claimed that there were old injuries, insinuating

322
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,840
Speaker 4: that abuse had taken place for a significant period of time.

323
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 1: So, John, you had just been through one of the

324
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 1: most harrowing experiences that anyone can ever go through, and

325
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,480
Speaker 1: you were waiting to hear what the path forward might

326
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,959
Speaker 1: be for your daughter. And the doctors at ACUN Children's Hospital,

327
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,880
Speaker 1: again the number three epicenter for shaking baby syndrome diagnoses

328
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,480
Speaker 1: and prosecutions in the country. Those doctors tell you, the

329
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:49,080
Speaker 1: family and detectives their opinion that the medical facts observed

330
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 1: in Jata retinal bleeding, subdual bleeding and brain swelling, as

331
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 1: well as a series of fractures, that these could only

332
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,879
Speaker 1: have been the result of a non accidental traumatic event,

333
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,800
Speaker 1: in other words, child abuse, violent shaking by Jada's caretaker

334
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,600
Speaker 1: at the time that she went unresponsive. And again, we

335
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 1: now know that there are a slew of medical conditions

336
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,760
Speaker 1: that can cause these symptoms, and that children can experience

337
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 1: seventy two hours or more of relatively normal behavior after

338
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 1: such a traumatic event, if a traumatic event even ever

339
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 1: occurred and was in fact what caused these symptoms. So

340
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 1: back then many in the medical establishment, these doctors included,

341
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,280
Speaker 1: thought that they could diagnose a crime and the time

342
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 1: of that crime, which we now know that they could not. Meanwhile,

343
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 1: your story has remained consistent ever since that fateful day,

344
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 1: and nowhere in your recollection of events does even a

345
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 1: minor frustration occur, let alone violent shaking.

346
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,640
Speaker 6: Never. Never, never. We all sit in a waiting room

347
00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,919
Speaker 6: or in the area when they come in and they

348
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 6: tell us, well, we believe that what's wrong with her

349
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 6: was my accident and was intentional, was caused by somebody,

350
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 6: was caused by specifically somebody who was there.

351
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 1: So then at that.

352
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 6: Point I felt like I was being accused or even

353
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,199
Speaker 6: suspected of something, and the only other person that was

354
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 6: there with me was their mother. I know I didn't

355
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,440
Speaker 6: do nothing to her. I never would so a man,

356
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 6: things running through my head at that moment. I'm scared

357
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,199
Speaker 6: first and foremost most completely for my daughter. Now I'm questioning, like,

358
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,119
Speaker 6: why are they saying somebody did this? Why did they

359
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 6: say somebody calls? It's like, what happened? Like did she

360
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 6: do something? So a conversation was had afterward outside with

361
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,159
Speaker 6: just me and her, and you know, I asked her

362
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 6: straight up, like did you do something? And she did not.

363
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 6: You know, I didn't do nothing. I don't know what

364
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 6: they're talking about. Like, so now now I'm just confused,

365
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 6: like I just don't know what I don't know, But

366
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 6: detectives continue to question me. They keep talking to me.

367
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,240
Speaker 6: My natural reaction was to corrop right with you know

368
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 6: what I'm saying, it's my baby, So however I can

369
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,159
Speaker 6: help whatever I can say. But at the end of

370
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 6: the day, I don't know much. I don't know what's

371
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,680
Speaker 6: to say. I'm confused like anybody else, everybody else, I

372
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 6: don't know what happened. Must the finger was actually pointed

373
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,640
Speaker 6: and Blaine was cast and charges were brought. Apartment indictments

374
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 6: and handcuts's place on them not. That's when I started

375
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 6: feeling like their intentions wasn't in the right place, because

376
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 6: it a truly lost and you would have really sought

377
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 6: out a real answer instead had just placed it all

378
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 6: somebody simply because they were physically and the wrong.

379
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,

380
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had

381
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance

382
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in

383
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the

384
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 1: criminal justice area. So with misplaced conference, they attribute injuries

385
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: or symptoms to actions and persons, when the science barely

386
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,360
Speaker 1: even supported it back then, let alone now. The causes

387
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: of Jada's symptoms range from accidental or intentional trauma to

388
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 1: internal For instance, there's a well recognized condition where there's

389
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 1: a little extra space in between the child's brain and

390
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: skull that stretches the veins that bridge that space, which

391
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,879
Speaker 1: causes chronic subdural bleeding. It still hasn't been determined what

392
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: causes this overlying condition, but birth trauma has been suggested

393
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 1: as a potential cause, whether natural or cesarean, and this

394
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 1: condition usually manifests within the child second to six months. Jada,

395
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,439
Speaker 1: of course, was six months old when this occurred, and

396
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 1: it's logical to think that being birthed as a twin

397
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: would probably be described as a traumatic event, an event

398
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: that could cause limb fractures as well. In these shaking

399
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: baby syndrome cases, CT scans and MRIs will usually show

400
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: the chronic subdural bleeding as they found in this case,

401
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: which will then be used as evidence of repeated abuse. Well,

402
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 1: it's misused, but used anyway, when all along there's a

403
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: legitimate and logical medical explanation. Other potential causes for symptoms

404
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: like Jada's. I mean, you could write a medical textbook

405
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 1: on this right. They include bleeding disorders, collagen disorders, copper disorders,

406
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: genetic disorders, vitamin deficiencies, even your everyday average household slip

407
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: and fall. But I seriously doubt whether the number three

408
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: Epicenter for diagnosing or misdiagnosing child abuse did a full

409
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 1: genetic work up to rule out all of these potential

410
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,479
Speaker 1: causes before. It's just sort of cavalierly sending John up

411
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 1: the river.

412
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 3: So the deligation was that Jada had a series of

413
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 3: fractures and that perhaps those fractures were of different ages,

414
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 3: and that, combined with the findings of bleeding and of

415
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 3: brain swelling, were thought to indicate trauma, and specifically trauma

416
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 3: from abuse.

417
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 4: So, unfortunately, one of the things that we know happens

418
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 4: in wrongful conviction cases all the time is that once

419
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 4: the police and in this case, doctors start to head

420
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 4: in a certain direction, it begins to be very difficult

421
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 4: for them to turn to a new path. And that's

422
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 4: what happened here. The police and the doctors didn't look

423
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 4: for any other causes. They seized on this diagnosis of

424
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 4: shaking baby syndrome and that's where they went. It's one

425
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 4: of the things that makes it harder for us to

426
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 4: successfully represent John. Not impossible. We think we'll be successful

427
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 4: in this case ultimately, but it's one of the things

428
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 4: that hampers our work some is that we don't have

429
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 4: the medical records Jata from Jada's birth up unto March nineteenth,

430
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 4: and the reason is that they were never gathered by

431
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 4: either the medical investigators or the law enforcement investigators to

432
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 4: look at and to determine whether there was other symptomology,

433
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 4: other pathology, other things going on with Jada prior to

434
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 4: March nineteenth, instead of just the medical records from March

435
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 4: nineteenth going forward.

436
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: Particularly with SBS, we've seen you know, over two hundred

437
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: cases overturned, and a lot of these, you know, it

438
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 2: seemed clear cut that there was abuse, and later on

439
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 2: it was either some sort of minor accident or some

440
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 2: sort of genetic cause to this. And so, you know,

441
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 2: I think people have this notion of what SBS is,

442
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 2: and we see clearly that there's a lot of varying

443
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 2: reasons for that to potentially see these findings within a

444
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: child and then they're just you know, initially ignored, but

445
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: then later come out later on when you have a

446
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: full examination or full medical history.

447
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 3: Well, and there's a lot of overlap here, greg because

448
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 3: a lot of the factor that caused children to have

449
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 3: either have health problems or have their health problems not

450
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 3: be appropriately diagnosed or treated are also the factors that

451
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: doctors and child protection workers will look at to say

452
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: that statistically a child is more likely to be abused.

453
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 3: And so what I mean by that is parents who

454
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: are young and parents who are people of color are

455
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 3: both more likely to be accused of crimes and more

456
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 3: likely to receive disparate treatment within the medical establishment. So

457
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 3: those things actually work together to create an unjust result

458
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: in many cases.

459
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's worth noting that, just as we record,

460
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: a study was just published which showed that there is

461
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: intense cognitive bias amongst medical examiners, so much so that

462
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: when given the same exact evidence, two different groups and

463
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: we're talking large groups of medical examiners look at exactly

464
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: the same evidence of a three year old that was

465
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: brought to the hospital with head trauma and died, were

466
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: four times more likely to rule it a homicide when

467
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: they were told that the child was black and that

468
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: the child was brought in by the boyfriend of the mother,

469
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: as opposed to the other group that was told with

470
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: exactly the same evidence that the child was white and

471
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: was brought in by a grandparent. So, just to really

472
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: put a stamp on what you were saying, Kate, So

473
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: let's turn to the arrest.

474
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 4: So John was not arrested right away, although it was

475
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 4: clear that once Jada was taken off of life support

476
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 4: and passed away, that they were going to charge him

477
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 4: with murder. John didn't have a lot of money. As

478
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 4: a teenager charged with a crime, he had counsel appointed

479
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 4: to represent him, and then counsel got the court to

480
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 4: provide some funds for an additional expert witness to help

481
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 4: prepare for trial.

482
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: So at trial, what was the state's theory, what was

483
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 2: the evidence behind that, and then what did the defense

484
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: put together to refute?

485
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 4: So Deja agreed with everything that John had said previously

486
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 4: about what happened in the hour or so before Dejah

487
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 4: left for school that day, So there was no inconsistency

488
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 4: between what John's been saying and what Desa said happened. Desa,

489
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 4: of course, claimed that she didn't do anything to any

490
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 4: of the children. According to her testimony at trial, she

491
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 4: believed John may have lied to her about any wrongdoing,

492
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 4: but days just being told by the people who are

493
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 4: supposed to know what they're talking about the John killed

494
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 4: her child and Kate.

495
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 2: What were the medical findings that the state witnesses had

496
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: and what they concluded.

497
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: The medical facts presented at trial in this case included

498
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 3: a series of fractures, mostly fresh but at least one

499
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 3: older fracture, retinal hemorrhaging, subdural hemorrhaging, signs of previous subdural

500
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 3: hemorrhaging and brain swelling. As I said before, this is

501
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 3: the classic triad of shaken baby syndrome. Then the state

502
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 3: put on three medical witnesses. Doctor Paul McPherson testified that

503
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: the child would not have been able to suck any

504
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: milk after sustaining these kinds of injuries. But we now

505
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: know but a child can experience seventy two hours of

506
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: lucidity after the injuries associated with shaken baby syndrome, and

507
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 3: that's what published case reports have shown us. It could

508
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 3: be even greater than that. So doctor macpherson conceded that

509
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 3: the injuries may have been sustained before John woke at

510
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 3: eight am to give Jada a bottle. The injuries may

511
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 3: not have been a parent and the state had to

512
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 3: seal up that concession with doctor Paul Besunder, who testified

513
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: that the causal injury could not have been sustained prior

514
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 3: to eight am. Again, we now know that a child

515
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 3: can experience seventy two hours of lucidity or more after

516
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 3: the injuries associated with SPS. Their last medical witnesses testimony

517
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: was based on the testimony of Detective Shady, who said

518
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: that John told him in an unrecorded interview that Jada

519
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 3: began to suck the bottle when he made it available

520
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: by propping it on the blanket nearby. This is refuted

521
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: by two other recorded interviews with John, as well as

522
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: Deja's uncontested statement that Jada had drunk half a bottle

523
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: before Daja left for school. So you can see that

524
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: the state was trying to box the call cause of

525
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: Jada's death into the window that Jada was under John's

526
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 3: care alone. Summit County Coroner doctor Lisa Kohler testified that,

527
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 3: based on the secondhand information that the child drank a

528
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: significant portion of the milk after eight am, the injuries

529
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: were a result of being shaken, because if she could

530
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: still muster the energy to drink milk after eight am,

531
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: then the trauma must have been committed by John to

532
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: be causer to go unconscious. However, and I know that

533
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: I sound like a broken record here, if there was

534
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: causal trauma, it could have happened seventy two hours into

535
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: the past from when Jada became unresponsive.

536
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: So the state's case was completely undermined by what we

537
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: now know about the junk science that they were relying

538
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: on to convict John. The defense, however, called renowned forensic

539
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: pathologist doctor John Arden, who agreed that these could have

540
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: been injuries from abuse or not, and that they could

541
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: have occurred between seven and nine to forty five am. However,

542
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: the evidence available did not permit a medical opinion within

543
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: any degree of specificity regarding the timing of any of

544
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: the fresh injuries, and that it is not medically reasonable

545
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: to make any such determinations. Subdural hemorrhaging does not typically

546
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: cause immediate incapacitation, So the way the state was trying

547
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: to fence in this crime to that eight to nine

548
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: am window just doesn't hold water. Doctor Arden testified that

549
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: Jada's medical records corroborate John's telling of events to a

550
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: reasonable degree of medical certainty.

551
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: And doctor Arden isn't you know, I'll say, for lack

552
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: of a better term, one of these defense witness gun

553
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: for hire that'll kind of say, you know.

554
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: What he wants.

555
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a believer of SBS for a

556
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: very long time, and he's mentioned very recent like you said,

557
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: in more recent studies that doctors need to be very

558
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: mindful of diagnosing this and they're really missing key facts,

559
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: and Kate, you mentioned it, and I'll ask the tough question.

560
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 2: I mean, you have fractures and limbs at least diagnosed

561
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: by state's witnesses and other things at trial. Were there

562
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: any explanations about where potentially these injuries may have come

563
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: because you know, I think you're on a jury you're

564
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: seeing multiple fractures and damage to the head and then

565
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: also to the extremities.

566
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 3: What is important to know about medical findings in these

567
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: kinds of cases is that medical findings might look like abuse,

568
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: but they might not necessarily be abuse, and that can

569
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 3: happen for a few reasons. One is that injuries that

570
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: are accidental can be misinterpreted by medical providers and investigators

571
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: as abuse. And another is related to this assumption that

572
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: sometimes medical providers make that because they don't know about

573
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: the child's underlying medical conditions. If the child doesn't have

574
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 3: any so maybe a child has a bone disorder, they

575
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: might fracture very easily. The classic example of this is

576
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 3: little babies in a neonatal intensive care unit who are born,

577
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: for example, very premature, and they can experience fractures with

578
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: totally normal handling, changing their diaper, things like that. But

579
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: that's not the only scenario in which children can have

580
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 3: what appear to be really serious injuries from little or

581
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: no trauma. And because we don't know enough about Jada's

582
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: medical condition, it's really hard for us to know what

583
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: kind of actions were required for her to sustain the

584
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: injuries that she had.

585
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: So after the presentation of dueling experts, the defense called

586
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: John to the stand, who said what you've already heard here,

587
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: that he did not hurt those children. Ever, that he

588
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: did not see Jada drink from the bottle after eight am,

589
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: but simply propped up a half full bottle on a blanket,

590
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: consistent with Daja's uncontested statement. And again, all this fucking

591
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: nonsense about the bottle is completely irrelevant because current science

592
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: supports that in the case of a traumatic event, it

593
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: could have had happened any time over the prior three

594
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: days or even longer. So, whether it was intentional or

595
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: an accident, Jada could have fallen off the couch the

596
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: changing table. Knowing what we know now, one cannot maintain

597
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: that those injuries could have only happened one way. The

598
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: way that the state maintains still maintains violent shaking. While

599
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: Jada was alone in John's care. And that's if the

600
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: cause even was a traumatic event rather than a pre

601
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: existing medical condition. And like I've already mentioned here, there

602
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: are and we've counted them. There are eighty eight potential

603
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: conditions that we know of so far, and the research

604
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: is ongoing. Now. I want to quote the man that

605
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: first hypothesized shake and baby syndrome back in the nineteen seventies,

606
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: doctor Norman Guthkelch. We mentioned him earlier, and he wrote

607
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: an article in twenty twelve. I'll never forget this that

608
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: it was titled after forty Years of Consideration, and that

609
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: article was harshly critical of his very own hypothesis and

610
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: everything that has happened since. And so in a twenty

611
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: twelve interview, doctor Guthkelch said, and I quote, I think

612
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: we need to go back to the drawing board and

613
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: make a more thorough assessment of these fatal cases. And

614
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to bet that we are going to find

615
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: in every or at least the large majority of cases,

616
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: that the child had another severe illness of some sort

617
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: which was missed until too late. End the quote, I mean,

618
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: that's the man himself. But unfortunately that was twenty twelve

619
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: and John's trial was in twenty eleven. So after hearing

620
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: the state's witnesses up against John's witness and not knowing

621
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: really a fraction of what we know now, John was

622
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: convicted almost predictably and sentenced to fifteen years to life. John,

623
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: can you take us back to that terrible moment when

624
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: the jury came back.

625
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 6: In, I stand up. I'm listening to the Verdi Kawawan

626
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 6: was the highest degree of mother source. We finally defended

627
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 6: Johnson's not guilty. I actually turned back to my family

628
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 6: and that the whole sense and feeling of relief just

629
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 6: come over me, and I'm just like, finally, like everything

630
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 6: just all the way, everything just went away. I still

631
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 6: agreev with the loss of my daughter, but like the

632
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 6: stress and the worry of the jail situation and all

633
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 6: of this, it just went away because I heard the

634
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 6: words not guilty, not knowing that they got the whole

635
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,959
Speaker 6: rest of them indictment to read so how to murder

636
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 6: as a result of fluxus, So we find that defending

637
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 6: downtown is guilty. It's just like all the life in

638
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 6: my body just left unitiately. It was just tears. It

639
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 6: was just like I can't even explain the feeling like

640
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 6: I look at my mind, she crying, everybody crying, even

641
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 6: my band mind, she's crying. At that moment, I just

642
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 6: knew life. You know, it's about to be the longest,

643
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 6: hardest part of my life. And it makes sense me

644
00:35:50,800 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 6: to fifteen years of life. I'm in here with grown

645
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 6: men from fresh eighteen. I'm here with convicted killers. I'm

646
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 6: in here with people start all type of different type

647
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 6: of clients, and I gotta survive. I started trying to

648
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 6: educate myself. I got my ged I just got to survive.

649
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 6: I'm here now, so I got to try to do

650
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 6: everything I can to grow in prosper dimension that I can.

651
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 6: I've seen a lot of here. I learned a lot

652
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 6: of here. I grew up. I found myself in here.

653
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 6: I was a kid when I came in. I'm almost

654
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 6: twenty nine. I learned a lot of here. I'm a

655
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 6: whole another person. I respective, my mentality, my outlook on life.

656
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 6: Everything is different.

657
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: Don, What is being done now for this young man?

658
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: Is there any other exculpatory evidence that we haven't already

659
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: outlined here, or any evidence that the state head constitutional violations.

660
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 4: In terms of constitutional violations. A defendant has a right

661
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 4: not to be convicted on the basis of unreliable, quasi

662
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 4: scientific evidence, and that's what happened in John's case, and

663
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 4: that's what happens in these so called shaken Baby syndrome

664
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 4: prosecutions around the country, and particularly in Ohio, and even

665
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 4: more particularly in Summit County, which is where Akron is.

666
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 4: As Kate pointed out near the beginning, today, Ohio is

667
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 4: a particular hotspot for these sorts of cases, and not

668
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 4: just Ohio, but Summit County and Akron specifically. So either

669
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 4: the people of Akron really like to abuse their children,

670
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 4: or there's something going on at Akron Children's Hospital and

671
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 4: in the Summit County Prosecutor's office with respect to their

672
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 4: proclivity for jumping to the conclusion of child abuse and

673
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 4: bringing these types of cases. We are preparing to bring

674
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 4: post conviction litigation on John's path. We will argue that

675
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 4: the science in this field has changed considerably over the

676
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 4: last ten or eleven years that if a jury could

677
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 4: have heard in twenty ten what it could hear today,

678
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 4: that a conviction simply wouldn't have happened.

679
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: So, really, what you have here and taking a step

680
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: back is you have a horrible tragedy, you have a

681
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: conviction based upon science that if it was tried today,

682
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: would not be a viable theory, and you have a

683
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: man still behind bars based upon that unreliable theory of

684
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 2: shaking babysitcreme correct.

685
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely So for our listeners, I'm sure you're feeling the

686
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: same outrage that I'm feeling now. And what can people do?

687
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 4: I certainly think that people can start writing letters to

688
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 4: the parole board. John won't be eligible for parole until

689
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, and hopefully by that time will have

690
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 4: successfully completed litigation on his behalf in parole won't matter.

691
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 4: But I certainly think that people can start writing to

692
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 4: the parole board about these issues, because John isn't the

693
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 4: only person in Ohio who has to before a parole

694
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 4: board ultimately and convince the parole board that shaking baby

695
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 4: syndrome just shouldn't serve as the underpinning for a conviction

696
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 4: that keeps someone in prison for the rest of their lives.

697
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 4: So that's something that people can do. The other thing

698
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 4: I would say that people should do, even apart from

699
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 4: John's case, is be informed. If you get a jury

700
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 4: duty summons, show up and then don't just believe what

701
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 4: the government scientists tell you. Think about it, decide whether

702
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 4: or not what they're saying is credible and makes sense,

703
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 4: and listen with open ears to the experts that Defense

704
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 4: Council puts on the stand as well.

705
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: And remember, it's innocent until proven guilty, not the other

706
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: way around. So with that, John, we're thinking of you

707
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: all the time, and we're going to do everything we can.

708
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 5: You have an.

709
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: Extraordinary team, not just on this call, but at the

710
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: Ohio Innocence Project and throughout the innocence community. I encourage

711
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: people to donate to the Ohio Innocence Project so that

712
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: we can help John and so many others who have

713
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted in the state of Ohio. So with that, now,

714
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: of course, it's the part of the show called closing arguments.

715
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: First of all, I think our distinguished guests even we'll

716
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: call it a panel today. First time I've ever used

717
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: that word of closing arguments. So from Greg and I,

718
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: thanks again for being here. Greg, thank you for co

719
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: hosting with me as well.

720
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for allowing me to co host here.

721
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: Jason Okay, and now we'll go to Donald and save

722
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 1: Kate for last just because of alphabetical order, and then

723
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: over to you John of course for the closing arguments.

724
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 4: Thank you Jason and Greg for having us on today

725
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 4: and for talking about this really really important issue and

726
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 4: this important part of the criminal justice system that hasn't

727
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 4: gotten enough attention recently. When I work with my clients

728
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 4: who have been convicted of child abuse through the shaken

729
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 4: baby syndrome theory, and as I talk to their families,

730
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 4: I alternate between sadness and anger. I'm angry, as is

731
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 4: everybody in the podcast today, that people go to prison

732
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 4: over cases that looked like this, and I'm sad because

733
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 4: of what it does to people and their families. John

734
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 4: went to prison when he was teenager, and if the

735
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 4: State of Ohiouse has its way, he'll never get out

736
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 4: again for something that wasn't a crime. It was a

737
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 4: crime that never happened. These cases are enormously difficult to undo.

738
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 4: I compare these cases sometimes to like trying to poke

739
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 4: a hole through jello. It's easier to make a hole

740
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 4: through a very solid object than it is through something

741
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,479
Speaker 4: that's weak, and weekly it just closes up around the hole.

742
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 4: That you've just made and trying to undo these shaken

743
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 4: baby convictions can be exactly like that. We need to

744
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 4: do better in our criminal justice system. We need to

745
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 4: pay attention to the science. We need to make it

746
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 4: a little bit easier to discover the evidence to undo

747
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 4: these convictions after they happen. In Ohio, for instance, we

748
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 4: really need the ability to do discover before we file

749
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 4: an action so that we can get things like Jada's

750
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 4: medical records from birth up until five months, so that

751
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 4: we can put together the full medical history that we

752
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,439
Speaker 4: need to do the work in this kind of case, Kate.

753
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 3: The prosecution of these types of cases are based on

754
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 3: a laudable goal, and that's to protect children and protect

755
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 3: the most vulnerable. Nobody wants child abuse. Nobody wants to

756
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 3: see abuse at all. Unfortunately, what's happened is that doctors

757
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: and other experts believe that in these cases they can

758
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: do what's called air on the side of the child.

759
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: They can accuse someone of abuse when they're not sure

760
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 3: or when all of the science doesn't unerringly point to

761
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: the defendant, and you can't air on the side of

762
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: the child in these kinds of cases, it's impossible any

763
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 3: error is going to harm both the child who may

764
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 3: be a victim and everyone else involved in the case.

765
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 3: And that's because when these cases are investigated improperly or

766
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 3: charges are breath that are wrongful, that means that a

767
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 3: child can be separated from a loving family, or that

768
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 3: a grieving parent who's lost a child can be punished

769
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 3: for something that they didn't do. And it also might

770
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 3: mean that a child who is ill or who has

771
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: had an accident might not get the right medical care

772
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 3: for their illness. There's no way to err on the

773
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 3: side of the child in these cases, and that's why

774
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 3: we have to be so careful. We cannot have convictions

775
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 3: that are premised on science that is shaky or science

776
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 3: that is ambiguous. And that's why the Center for Integrity

777
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 3: in Forensic Sciences exists because everybody's right to justice and

778
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 3: a fair result depends on a fair process and a

779
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 3: fair trial, and you can't have that when there is

780
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 3: testimony or opinion introduced at the trial that is overstated

781
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 3: or just plain wrong.

782
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: And now, of course, over to you, John, I.

783
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 6: Just want to sign unit and i want people to

784
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 6: realize what I'm going through and I'm not even the

785
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 6: only person going through this is partially being accused of

786
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 6: causing that they are children do to a challenge science

787
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 6: like something that's not even legit. It's a lot of

788
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 6: whole pury and the whole theory, and the whole kind

789
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 6: of steff of the satifay attention of So I just

790
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 6: want to shed light on that situation first and foremostly

791
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 6: because I know that it's gonna get better.

792
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: I know that.

793
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 6: I know that. I know that because I know I

794
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 6: deserve it. I know that the truth gonna come out.

795
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 6: I love my daughter, I conditionally. I love all my children.

796
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 6: I have three children, including my daughter who cast away

797
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 6: in person the peace. I love them unconditionally, will do

798
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 6: anything to them, will give my life for them. I

799
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 6: gotta continue the fight for my life. I gotta give

800
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 6: the fight for my freedom them, and I gotta continue

801
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 6: to fight is justice for my daughter, because at the

802
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 6: end of the day, that's what it's truly about. When

803
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 6: we find out the real cause of what happened with her,

804
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 6: that's gonna automatically vindicate me, that's automatically gonna rate me,

805
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 6: but it's gonna also bring closer to my family, my

806
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 6: child's mother's family, everybody know what I'm saying, because it's

807
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 6: gonna give us the truth, is gonna it's gonna let

808
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 6: us know. It's gonna answer questions that you all got.

809
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 6: But at the end of the days, it's about my

810
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 6: Daughter's about Jada. It's all about Jada for Yeah, I

811
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 6: want my freedom, Yeah I desire my freedom. But all

812
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 6: what happened where getting the closure that our family need

813
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 6: and then finally being able to get to a place

814
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 6: where we can move forward because I've never really ever

815
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 6: even been able to heal from me. I never found

816
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 6: clothes because not only did I suffer one of the

817
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 6: deepest losses that anybody on the earth can suffer, as

818
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 6: love on a child, not only did our experience day

819
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 6: and have to deal with that, I got to deal

820
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 6: with stating here every single day.

821
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

822
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the

823
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.

824
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn,

825
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always

826
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

827
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

828
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

829
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

830
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one