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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything, alright. First off, if you're listening to

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Speaker 1: this before you go, do whatever you're gonna do while

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Speaker 1: you listen, like drive your car or cooked dinner or something. Um,

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Speaker 1: go to on iTunes or on Stitcher what have you,

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Speaker 1: and give this here podcast a super good review, because

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Speaker 1: that's helpful, real helpful, And it's like testimony to the

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Speaker 1: stinginess and cruelty of society that less than one percent

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Speaker 1: of the people who listen to this show have gone

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Speaker 1: and given it a review on iTunes. In other news,

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Speaker 1: we get a lot of people always ask about hats

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Speaker 1: and shirts and stuff the merch stores like back up

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Speaker 1: and running at the meat eater dot com. And another

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Speaker 1: thing that comes up is people are always after they

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Speaker 1: listen to shows, um, wondering about books, music ideas that

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Speaker 1: were discussed on the show. So but but if you

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Speaker 1: go to the metator dot com slash podcasts on the

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Speaker 1: same place there that you can read descriptions of the shows.

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Speaker 1: We have a thing where it's like show notes, right,

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Speaker 1: so you can find links to books ideas articles that

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Speaker 1: spring out of that selection is inspired by conversations we have.

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Speaker 1: You're on the show because we're constantly getting things that

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Speaker 1: people like, Yeah, you guys are talking about some book.

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Speaker 1: I didn't really catch what book it was. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to listen to the whole damn thing all the

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Speaker 1: way over again to figure out what book it was.

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Speaker 1: That's the place to go find out stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: So the meat eater dot Com slash podcast to find

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, the merch Store to find all

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Speaker 1: kinds of cool stuff. And we got a new media podcast,

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Speaker 1: t shirt out and go leave your review, which is

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Speaker 1: real helpful. Now watch this segue, get ready, because when

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Speaker 1: you go there, you'll find notes about books and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: And some of those books are written by our guest,

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Speaker 1: Dan Flores, whose house we're in right now. Can I

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Speaker 1: see the road you live on? Uh? You almost see? Well,

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Speaker 1: you can? I mean, so we're seventeen miles southwest of

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Speaker 1: Santa Fe, New Mexico, not in Madrid. Now, we're not

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Speaker 1: in uh Madrid, We're not in Syria's uh but kind

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Speaker 1: of in the vicinity and within looking distance of what

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Speaker 1: might be the oldest mine a turquoise mine, the oldest

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Speaker 1: mine in North America. Yeah, very possibly the oldest mine

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Speaker 1: and what is now the United States. I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: sitting here on the couch looking out the screen door,

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Speaker 1: and that mine is in view about four miles away.

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Speaker 1: It's called Chalcey wheedle, which is an Aztec word. Um.

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Speaker 1: Not that the the Aztec Indians lived here, this was

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Speaker 1: Pueblo country, but the Pueblos traded turquoise all the way

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Speaker 1: down into Central America, and uh, that turquoise made a

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Speaker 1: really big splash among the Aztecs, who have a glyph

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Speaker 1: for this little mountain where the mine is in the

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Speaker 1: Temple of the Sun in Mexico City or or did

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Speaker 1: have it. And so, yeah, this is a pretty major

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Speaker 1: site for ancient North American archaeology. What did the what

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Speaker 1: did the people here call it? Well, is that not known? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they don't. I'm not sure what the

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Speaker 1: word was that the Pueblo Indians had for. But there

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Speaker 1: was a pueblo here about five or six miles away

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Speaker 1: that was basically a pueblo of miners responsible for mining

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Speaker 1: the turquoise in the Surreos Hills. That pueblo was called

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Speaker 1: sam Marcus Pueblo and it was part of the Chaco

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Speaker 1: Canyon complex a thousand years ago, and this part of

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Speaker 1: the world there was a major civilization that was basically

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Speaker 1: orchestrated by a place we now called Choco, which is

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Speaker 1: a National Historical Park in northwestern New Mexico. And it

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Speaker 1: had far flung communities all over this part of the world,

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Speaker 1: all the way over into Arizona present day Colorado, Utah,

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Speaker 1: New Mexico. And this was a mining town that was

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Speaker 1: part of that complex. Is it uh? Is it true

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Speaker 1: to that Chocko ca. I think he told me this before,

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Speaker 1: that it Chaco Canyon in present day. We didn't really

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Speaker 1: understand it until you get up above it and aircraft

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Speaker 1: and look down on it to understand how it's configured. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think uh, I mean I might have said something

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Speaker 1: like that and some of our conversations from years ago

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Speaker 1: when we were in Missoula. And the reason that's the

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Speaker 1: case is because what archaeologists have learned about Choco fairly

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Speaker 1: recently in the last twenty five or so years, is

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Speaker 1: that a lot of the buildings Pueblo Benito, for example,

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Speaker 1: which was kind of the Indian version of the Vatican

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Speaker 1: really uh in North America thousand years ago. It was

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Speaker 1: laid out according to solstices and equinoxes. The sun rises

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Speaker 1: over the Chaco Valley at solstice and equinox, and so

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Speaker 1: the lines of the buildings were laid out in that way.

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Speaker 1: And what archaeologists realized when I mean, I think they

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Speaker 1: knew this for quite a while, but looking down on

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Speaker 1: it from aerial views, they realized that this is a

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Speaker 1: civilization that built an elaborate road network across the Southwest.

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Speaker 1: And um, I mean, you can kind of see those

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Speaker 1: roads when you're on the ground, when you're over there

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Speaker 1: hiking around the cliffs, but you can really see them,

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Speaker 1: I think, a lot better from the air. And what

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Speaker 1: people realize looking down on the Chaco and Complex from

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Speaker 1: the air was that these roads were built, probably for

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Speaker 1: religious reasons, just straight as an arrow across the landscape.

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Speaker 1: And so unlike modern road engineers who will take roads

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Speaker 1: around mountains and follow streams up canyons and things, these

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Speaker 1: guys just for whatever the reason, they shot these roads

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Speaker 1: straight through the countryside, and if a butte got in

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Speaker 1: the way, they just went right over the top of

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Speaker 1: it and maintain that straight line. And these were roads

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Speaker 1: that were used. I mean people were hauling the vegas,

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Speaker 1: the beams that they used to build all these giant

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Speaker 1: constructions in Chaco from the Chusca Mountains fifty miles away

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Speaker 1: over these roads. And these guys who were basically pissing

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Speaker 1: these logs from the mountains, great big Ponderosa pines, who

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Speaker 1: are having to go up and down the topography because

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Speaker 1: the roads just went straight, and there was probably a

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Speaker 1: reason for it. I mean, it wasn't just done because

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Speaker 1: that's like the practical way to build a road, because

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Speaker 1: it's not practical. No, it's not really practical. I mean

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Speaker 1: what you would you know, what animals do and what

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Speaker 1: most road engineers to do is you see a beaute

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Speaker 1: in front of you, you go around. But so that's

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Speaker 1: what Steve, you might have a little of that blood

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Speaker 1: in you, because that's kind of the way you hike. YEA.

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Speaker 1: Most of us tend to go around and with the

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Speaker 1: flow of the landscape, and when you see a beaut

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh, just go right up and over it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's why they call me the inconsiderate mountain Go higher

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Speaker 1: and considerate mountain go hiker. And and Dan, you were

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Speaker 1: saying that some of that, so some of the turquoise

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Speaker 1: taken out of here. You you're saying that, uh, there

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Speaker 1: was awareness of this mind all the way down in

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Speaker 1: the Aztec Empire, and that it seems as though, just

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Speaker 1: based on faunnel remains, that these guys were getting maccaws

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Speaker 1: and things from the jungles and they had those materials

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Speaker 1: up here and in turn their rocks their turn turquoise

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Speaker 1: was down there. Yeah, it was. It was a luxury

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Speaker 1: good trade. I mean, we don't think, you know, of

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Speaker 1: native people so much in the context of luxury goods,

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Speaker 1: but I mean they were, you know, they were just

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Speaker 1: like us. They were motivated by the same human nature

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Speaker 1: impulses that we are to express status. And so turquoise,

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Speaker 1: both turquoise and the things that the Pueblo people in

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Speaker 1: the American Southwest traded farther south for turquoise were all

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Speaker 1: luxury goods. And the mccause I mean, and this is

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Speaker 1: a kind of a phenomenon of this part of the

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Speaker 1: world because you can go into Santa Fe. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've got some scattered around here. There's a pot with

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Speaker 1: McCaw feathers in it right there, and most of the

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Speaker 1: shops in Santa fe still today you can go in

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Speaker 1: and buy mccaugh feathers, because this is a bird we've

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Speaker 1: known for the last thousand years around here, that was

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Speaker 1: a sacred bird to the native people. They doesn't range here, obviously,

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Speaker 1: this is a desert. They haul these things live up

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Speaker 1: from the jungles of Central America, and the priests kept

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Speaker 1: them in cages and treated them as kind of sacred beings.

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Speaker 1: I think because of the brilliant plumage, the coloration of them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's a for their beautiful song. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, this is out the inconsistency between a macaw

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Speaker 1: his appearance in his song where it sounds like like

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Speaker 1: he's the most beautiful bird and he sounds like like

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Speaker 1: a dying what I had imagined a disease dying tero

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Speaker 1: dactyle to sound like. But we're just down in South

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Speaker 1: America with some mkushi guys and they still hunt mccaus

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Speaker 1: with the feathers. Yeah, I don't doubt it. And now

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Speaker 1: you're like, we're in the world where's like we have

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Speaker 1: dies and all these fabrics and you can buy like

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Speaker 1: blaze pink ship on the internet, right, But they're like still, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: those feathers are amazing looking. And they were saying that

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Speaker 1: macaus are difficult to hunt the hum of the bow.

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Speaker 1: They're difficult to hunt. But there's a particular type of

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Speaker 1: of date tree or I'm sorry, a particular type of

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Speaker 1: palm that has like a date like fruit on it,

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Speaker 1: and they said that the macaws like those so much

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Speaker 1: that you need to watch for one of those trees

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Speaker 1: the fruit, and that's the only time that a macaw

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Speaker 1: will let down his guard. And if you wait under

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Speaker 1: the tree, you might get a macaw with your bow.

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Speaker 1: And the rig they use, it's just a little barbed

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Speaker 1: point that they try to hit the macaw with it

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Speaker 1: and then the tip falls away from the arrow, but

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Speaker 1: it's connected to the arrow shaft with a piece of string.

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Speaker 1: And then McCaw get tangled up and they were able

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Speaker 1: to climb up, able to climb up and get it

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Speaker 1: and get their feathers. And they still produced. They still

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Speaker 1: out of the cause and two cans and stuff. They

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Speaker 1: produced ceremonial head dresses. Yeah, well that was you know,

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Speaker 1: even a thousand years ago, and quite likely farther back

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Speaker 1: than that, because there are macaus on the rock art

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Speaker 1: all around us. I mean there's a rock art site

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Speaker 1: UM about twelve miles away from here, uh that has

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Speaker 1: a hole kind of base relief of Macau's painted on it,

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Speaker 1: and it Petroglyph National Monument, which is out west of

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Speaker 1: Albuquerque on the Mesa on the west side of the

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Speaker 1: Real Grand River. UM. I mean, I've seen Macau's painted

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Speaker 1: there too, And some of this rock art is older

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Speaker 1: than the Chaco and civilization, so that indicates to me

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Speaker 1: that there's been a fascination with Macau's and obviously a

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Speaker 1: trade going down all the way into Central America from

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Speaker 1: the southwest for longer than the Chaco and civilization existed

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Speaker 1: in this part of the world. Another interesting connection between

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Speaker 1: New Mexico and and maybe further south is that the

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Speaker 1: first time a European described buffalo or bison, it was

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Speaker 1: Cortez or one of his chroniclers ran into it in

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Speaker 1: Montezuma's personal collection and his zoo, maybe five six hundred

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Speaker 1: miles south of maybe more than that, south of the

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Speaker 1: furthest southern point that the animal could have range. That's right,

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Speaker 1: because they didn't. They clearly didn't cross the Chihuahuan Desert,

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Speaker 1: which is hundreds of miles of pure desert now, and

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Speaker 1: we think that bison did uh range sporadically down in

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Speaker 1: the northern Chihuahua state into some of the grasslands there.

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Speaker 1: So definitely in Sonora, Sonora, Chihuahua, but not as far

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Speaker 1: south as so that would have had. That would have

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Speaker 1: been an animal that courtez some that probably was taken

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Speaker 1: as a calf down to the courts of the Estet

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Speaker 1: capital and became part of the officials was gifted to

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Speaker 1: him or traded to him some probably. Yeah, that's always

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Speaker 1: been my thought about it. You know, there's nothing I

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Speaker 1: want to I want to talk more about that stuff,

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Speaker 1: but they want to ask you about you mention this

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Speaker 1: one time and you haven't explained to me yet. You

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Speaker 1: were saying that you're gonna tell me or could tell me.

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Speaker 1: We're open to discussing why uh why people's houses are

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Speaker 1: seventy two degrees. The thing I often tease my wife

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Speaker 1: about is, I'm like, I've identified my wife's like general

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Speaker 1: comfort range. I'm like, there's a four degree window on

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Speaker 1: which you don't you that you don't take steps to

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Speaker 1: like change your clothes to accommodate, And she like from

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Speaker 1: sixty eight to seventy two. When it falls outside of

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Speaker 1: that four degree thing, I always find she's doing something

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Speaker 1: to like, she's like losing layers or gaining laryerous to

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Speaker 1: keep up with it. Yeah, well, I used to pose

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Speaker 1: this question to classes at the University of Montana, and

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Speaker 1: I would often do it at the end of the

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Speaker 1: first class meeting, sort of for further cogitation after they

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Speaker 1: left the class. So I want you to think about

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Speaker 1: this question. Why is it that, no matter whether you

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Speaker 1: live in Tucson, Arizona, or in Fairbanks, Alaska, you set

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Speaker 1: the thermostat of your house when it's when it can

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Speaker 1: be controlled at seventy two degrees And we do this

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Speaker 1: all around the world. So why do we do this?

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Speaker 1: And I will say that I don't know that anybody

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Speaker 1: ever came back on the second day of class and

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Speaker 1: said I know the answer to that. But if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, it's a fairly obvious one. We are

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Speaker 1: native as a species to only one part of the world,

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Speaker 1: and we've colonized every where else. And so in order

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Speaker 1: for us, in fact, to colonize out of equatorial Africa,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we had to invent sown clothing we basically

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Speaker 1: had to harness fire in order to keep ourselves warm.

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Speaker 1: We had to build structures to keep ourselves either warm

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Speaker 1: or cool. And once we had those things, once, once

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Speaker 1: we had clothing and structures, we were in fire. We

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Speaker 1: were able then to spread around the world, to go

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Speaker 1: into northern Europe, to go into Scandinavia, to spread into Polynesia,

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Speaker 1: to end up crossing Siberia into North America. But everywhere

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Speaker 1: we went, that migration hasn't been long enough. It's only

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Speaker 1: taken place in the last forty five thousand years. We

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Speaker 1: haven't gone anywhere long enough to actually change who we

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Speaker 1: originally are as a species. And so what we've had

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Speaker 1: to do is to take our original habit hat with

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Speaker 1: us everywhere we've gone. And of course what it's meant

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Speaker 1: is that if you live in Canada, are you live

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Speaker 1: in Scandinavia, we have to consume an enormous amount of

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Speaker 1: energy in order to keep ourselves warm to live in

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Speaker 1: places like that, or if you live in Phoenix, Arizona,

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Speaker 1: we have to consume an enormous amount of energy to

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Speaker 1: cool ourselves. Because what we're doing everywhere we go, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have to do this when we go to

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Speaker 1: Mars too in another couple of decades. We've got to

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Speaker 1: set the thermostat at seventies because that's the ambient temperature

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Speaker 1: under which we evolved as a species, and that's why

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Speaker 1: we are only comfortable in your wife's four degree range

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Speaker 1: from six eight and seventy two. So we've got to

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Speaker 1: recreate that everywhere we go. I read somewhere there's something

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Speaker 1: about the human migrations around the world, and it was

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Speaker 1: like to come at least the current on standing to

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Speaker 1: come into what's now the Western Hemisphere, to come into

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Speaker 1: the New World. The scholar the scholarly consensus is still

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Speaker 1: that the first Americans passed across the Bearing Land Bridge,

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Speaker 1: and to get to that point you needed to be

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Speaker 1: able to live in the Arctic. Okay, so you're you're

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Speaker 1: passing through the Arctic. People didn't get here until and

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Speaker 1: the number could change through time, but it's sort of

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Speaker 1: generally it's considered to be that people's first step foot

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Speaker 1: here fourteen fifteen thousand years ago. That could change by

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Speaker 1: a handful of years um as more sites emerge, but

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Speaker 1: that the limiting factor what kept us out of here

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Speaker 1: was that our our movement up into Siberia, which allowed

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Speaker 1: us to come across into Alaska, was sort of stalled

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Speaker 1: out until the invention of the eyed needle. Yeah, at

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Speaker 1: which point, yeah, son clothing, Like once the archaeological record

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Speaker 1: in Eurasia starts to turn up son close thing with

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Speaker 1: the eye needle, and then people are ready to shoot

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Speaker 1: up and crossover, and that that very likely was a

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Speaker 1: female invention. I mean, you know, we pride ourselves as

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Speaker 1: men on Okay, we invented at adols and things to

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Speaker 1: be able to hunt more effectively, but the the eyde

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Speaker 1: needle was probably an invention of women sitting there working

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Speaker 1: hides and figuring out how to attach them one to

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Speaker 1: the other and make an effect fitted clothing. Because what

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Speaker 1: you need is clothing that's going to fit tightly enough

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Speaker 1: around you that it maintains your body heat. And so

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Speaker 1: we had to create sown clothing before we could ever

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Speaker 1: basically not not even just live in these northern latitudes

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Speaker 1: are extremely for southerly latitudes in the Southern hemisphere, but

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Speaker 1: even to travel through them, because we suffered from frostbite

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Speaker 1: so easily. I mean, we're basically semi equatorial apes and

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Speaker 1: we have a hard time functioning in these really cold situations.

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Speaker 1: I was just reading. I'm reading a book about d

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Speaker 1: extinctions and it's written by a geneticist. It's about the

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Speaker 1: possibility of like de extinction bringing back through people. Hear

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Speaker 1: the word cloning is just like not at all like

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Speaker 1: what they would do to to to recreate a passenger

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Speaker 1: pigeon or recreate a mammoth is not at all has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with ship you saw on Jurassic Park.

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Speaker 1: It's it's way more nuanced than complex. But Um, in it,

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Speaker 1: she was explaining that the authors explaining that the wooly

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Speaker 1: mammoth is about as far removed from the Asian elephant

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Speaker 1: as we are from Chimp's meaning about we're about like

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Speaker 1: genetically about nine eight percent the same, but there's still

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Speaker 1: two percent pretty major man, Yeah, t percent at you

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Speaker 1: Mozart and Einstein. Yeah, so you know an everything, And

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Speaker 1: this is gonna lead to a question I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you about. But Um, when I read about the

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Speaker 1: people in the New World, like I've read the books

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Speaker 1: that the anthropologist, the paleo anthropologist David Meltzer and and

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Speaker 1: David Meltzer talks about that passageway that humans when humans

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Speaker 1: went through the Arctic and passed through Siberian into Alaska first,

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Speaker 1: Like important to realize that they weren't like thinking like, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's go to America. There was no there was no

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Speaker 1: like end the goal. They weren't like you, weren't like

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Speaker 1: you were kind of you were going somewhere on a

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Speaker 1: maybe a daily basis, but there was no like, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's go colonize, like on the burying what's not the

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Speaker 1: bearing what we think of when we look at like

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Speaker 1: Burringia or what's not the burying land bridge, It's reasonable

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Speaker 1: to think that generations might have been born and died

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Speaker 1: on that land chunk with no concept of them being

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Speaker 1: coming from somewhere and going somewhere. I mean, for one thing,

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Speaker 1: it's six hundred miles wide. I mean we call it

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Speaker 1: a bridge, and so that makes you think of it

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Speaker 1: as this this narrow passageway from one continent to another.

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Speaker 1: But at the time when h the the oceans were

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Speaker 1: at their lowest, ebb Beringia was six d miles wide.

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Speaker 1: So I mean it was you know, as wide as

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Speaker 1: present day Texas. You wouldn't be crossing through Austin and

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Speaker 1: San Antonio and think that Texarkana and El Paso were

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Speaker 1: the edges of a bridge. I mean, I think probably

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Speaker 1: you're exactly right. There would have been whole generations of

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Speaker 1: people who would have just thought of that as a homeland.

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Speaker 1: But I think what would have motivated them to go

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Speaker 1: in the direction that carried them into North America is

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Speaker 1: that I mean, I think this is one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons we left Africa and began moving around the world,

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Speaker 1: is that we were endlessly looking for places that other

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Speaker 1: people hadn't been yet, because that meant the resources were rich,

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Speaker 1: the animals were stupid, they hadn't been hunted yet, and

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Speaker 1: so what you're looking for is a place where, wow,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen any other human camps for the last

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Speaker 1: several days I have, I don't see smoke from campfires

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Speaker 1: up ahead, And so you go in the direction where

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Speaker 1: there appears to be an absence of prior human activity,

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Speaker 1: and that's what naturally led them finally into North America.

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Speaker 1: That that's kind of what I wanted to get out

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Speaker 1: to ask you about is so of your feelings on that,

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Speaker 1: because you just can't discount the idea that some point

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Speaker 1: there was like some element of curiosity because population levels

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Speaker 1: like like, for instance, there's this there's this idea that

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Speaker 1: the reason that Native Americans were so susceptible to European

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Speaker 1: diseases when when when Europeans arrived much later, it was

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Speaker 1: because they had passed through this like big disease free

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Speaker 1: corridor where you didn't have like in the Arctic, it

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Speaker 1: was cold enough and it wasn't densely populated, so communicable diseases.

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Speaker 1: Like people lost contact with communicable diseases and and lost

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Speaker 1: their ability to tolerate them. So you can't be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like the Arctic was so filled up with people that

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Speaker 1: there was warfare, right, It probably wasn't like that. It's

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Speaker 1: probably just people moving. I think it was people moving.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know around like bacall And and uh,

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Speaker 1: Russia there did seem to be where we think some

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Speaker 1: of the Siberian populations that ended up in North America

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Speaker 1: and became the ancestors of Native people. That I mean,

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Speaker 1: there is some evidence of uh, you know, possible conflict

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Speaker 1: that might have sent some groups on the move, but

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Speaker 1: like like like over resources, probably over resources. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that's probably the ultimate motivation for these migrations

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Speaker 1: that carried us around the world, is that, as I said,

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Speaker 1: a few minutes ago. I think human populations were sort

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Speaker 1: of endlessly looking for places where the resources were going

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Speaker 1: to be available solely to them and they weren't going

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Speaker 1: to have to compete with other people for them, and

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Speaker 1: so that would have that would have drawn people in

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Speaker 1: these grand migrations northward, for example, out of Africa, through Turkey,

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Speaker 1: around the Black Sea, all the way up into northern Europe.

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Speaker 1: Originally because I mean anatomically modern humans us Holmo sapiens,

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Speaker 1: we realized when we got there, the first people who

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Speaker 1: arrived there found only Neanderthals. There, only these you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean related hominins, but at least not us. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's what fueled the migration into North America too.

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Speaker 1: I will say, though, I mean, I'm I'm completely with

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Speaker 1: you on this impulse that we have to see what's

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Speaker 1: down the river and around the next mountain range. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's why, you know, we're that

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Speaker 1: kind of species. We've been doing this kind of spread

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Speaker 1: out of our homeland and around the planet for so long.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and not just our species, but prior hominant

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Speaker 1: species like Neanderthals have done it, that it's part of

402
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Speaker 1: our genetic legacy to to go and see what's there.

403
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Speaker 1: I think that's why we we're gonna end up going

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Speaker 1: to Mars uh and probably in other places in the

405
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Speaker 1: Solar System as well. But I think that's why everybody

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Speaker 1: is so excited about Mars at the moment. Is I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is just one of those genetic pulls that we've

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Speaker 1: had as a species, and I think it's been It's

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00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: a tribute to us in a lot of ways. It's

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Speaker 1: one of them, maybe the most noble things that we

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Speaker 1: have about us. It's that we are curious enough that

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Speaker 1: we want to go see what it's like somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: even though we know, in the case of Mars, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to wear helmets and suits and we've got

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Speaker 1: to live inside polyurethane structures and you know, but I

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Speaker 1: think people crossing uh Siberia and the the Baryngia and

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Speaker 1: into North America said, Okay, we're gonna have to bundle

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Speaker 1: up like you've never worn clothing before, and we've got

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Speaker 1: to invent tight fitted clothing with you know, with eyed needles. Um.

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Speaker 1: But if we need the technology to enable us to

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Speaker 1: go there, damn it, we're gonna invent it because this

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Speaker 1: is who we are. To me. It's one of our

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Speaker 1: great tributes, our attributes as a species. The guy that

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in his story get is the guy that's

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00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: coming down the coastline. Like people used to be big

426
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: on this idea that there was the ice free corridor

427
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: that would have dumped the like the first the first

428
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: Americans to hit what is now the Lower forty eight.

429
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: There used to be this idea and made you can

430
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: speak to other this idea is dead dead or kind

431
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: of dead? Is uh? That they would have hit that

432
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: they would have emerged on the Great Plains south of Edmonton,

433
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: Alberta through what this idea that there's this ice free

434
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: corridor where everything to the east was glaciated and the

435
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: coastline was glaciated and the Rockies were glaciated, but you

436
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: had this this dry chunk of land that would have

437
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: just eventually funneled human traffic down with this little belt

438
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: and spilled them out onto the primo hunting grounds of

439
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: the Lower forty eight and from their reeked havoc on

440
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: willie mammoths and mask dons. And now it seems that

441
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: there's a lot more thinking or or that this a

442
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: more fashionable idea. The people were coming down the coasts

443
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: and probably had basic boat technology. But I'm interested in

444
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: the feller and there was a first like like if

445
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: you had a time machine you could go see if

446
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: you're standing in any place, any place, and you're standing

447
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: in California on the beach, there's a time you could

448
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: have gone back in time and seeing the first dude

449
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: or more likely a family group coming down the shore

450
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: right and would have happened what happened. And I'm interesting

451
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: the guy coming down the shore that hits like a

452
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: calving glacier. So here he is never been here before.

453
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: He's on this coastline and all he can see ahead

454
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: of him is here's an ice field, alright, which still

455
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: they still exist to day around you know, southeast Alaska,

456
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: and there's a calving glacier. And he's like, kids, um,

457
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna trust that this ends,

458
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: and we're gonna battle out and around and see what's

459
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: on the other side. Because that was a leap and

460
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: ship like that had to been happening. I think that's

461
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: probably in a way, it's that's the you know, and

462
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: and and Christian and Jewish theology. That's the Adam myth.

463
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's the first man, the first woman

464
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: to see the world. And you know, in that myth,

465
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: Adam gets to name all the animals even and so

466
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: you can extrapolate, you know, from the Bible and the

467
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: Book of Genesis to your you know, captain of his

468
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: boat with his family going around this calving glacier and

469
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: hoping there's something on the other side, and landing on

470
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: the other side and finding some land and seeing animals

471
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: that they've never seen before, and getting to name the

472
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: animals and so like be like hunting Yellowstone Park. That's right,

473
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: that's with no park rangers, with no park rangers, and

474
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: and all these new beasts. Because I mean that's one

475
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: of the things that as we went went around the

476
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: world we confronted not everything was the same. I mean,

477
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: we were seeing this this grand diversity of life on

478
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: a planet that was billions of years old, where life

479
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: had evolved as a result of shifting uh and continents

480
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: breaking apart, so that we ended up with everywhere you

481
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: went there were there was there were different life forms.

482
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: You saw birds that you had never seen before, you

483
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: saw animals you had never seen before, And I think

484
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: that's probably one of the things, Especially people who were

485
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: as closely tuned to nature and observing nature as these

486
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: folks would have been because they lived off the natural world,

487
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: I think that would have been an ultimate fascination to

488
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: land on the other side of a Calvin glacier and

489
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: see a whole host of creatures you had never seen before. Yeah,

490
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: like with the first guy idea, after people had after

491
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: people had passed through the Arctic and started coming south,

492
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: they were probably hundreds of generations removed from snakes. Alaska

493
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: has no snakes, so you can imagine that there was there. Again,

494
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: there was like a guy. That's the thing I always

495
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: returned to, is you get like you get when you

496
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: think about history, you always think of it becomes faceless, right,

497
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: But there was like a person who had no idea

498
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: that a rattlesnake, right was like bad ship. And he

499
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: would have had to have have been like the guy who

500
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: made it and to the point where there is one

501
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: and saw that first one. Yeah, that's like what you're

502
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: and and there was no thing. There's no cultural No,

503
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: they did have cultural awareness, but their cultural awareness is

504
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: probably more confined to like a stead of experiences by

505
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: just a handful of past generations like you weren't like

506
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: always reading about wildlife on other continents now in some

507
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: like real time way. Yeah, and I think that would

508
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: have been tremendously exciting. I mean, it excites me to

509
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: think about it too. Step into a brand new world.

510
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: I mean, and I I've read enough. For example, you know,

511
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: just from in a sort of a minor key version

512
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: of this, people passing in the nineteenth century from the

513
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: woodlands of the east onto the Great Plains and encountering

514
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: for the first time pronghorn antelope, for example, or coyotes,

515
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: or huge herds of bison. They may have seen bison

516
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: in small numbers in the woodlands in eighteen hundred, but

517
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: getting two hundred miles farther west out of the grasslands

518
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: and seeing herds that spread to the limits of the horizon.

519
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: I mean. And and those people, of course left us

520
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: a written account, and so you can read how exciting

521
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: they found that. I mean, you know, John James Ottobon,

522
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: who spent his entire life studying nature, hunting animals, shooting birds,

523
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: painting birds, gets to a new setting on the Missouri

524
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: River on the Great Plains in eighteen forty three, and

525
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I've always loved this passage. He wrote his

526
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: wife that summer about all these animals he was seeing

527
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: that he had never seen before, and finally close one

528
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: of his letters with the line, I've got to stop right.

529
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: I'm too excited to write anymore. I can't say anything else,

530
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: I mean, And so there was that excitement is palpable

531
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: through the written word of what people left us, you know,

532
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: in the last hundred and fifty or two hundred years.

533
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: So it must have been the same thing when someone

534
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: emerged into North America and saw, you know, giant herds

535
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: of camels for the first time, or I mean, they

536
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: would have seen wild horses, no doubt plies the seen

537
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: horses in Baryngia, and they would have seen mammoths and

538
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: mastodons in in Baryngia, but they probably wouldn't have seen

539
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: giant ground sloughs or hyenas or camels. And so they

540
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: emerged into settings where they they saw creatures like that

541
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: must have been exciting as hell. Some people have I

542
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: think a hard time with the camel thing like that.

543
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: We have like camelids on the great plants, but it's

544
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: really like you kind of take for game like the

545
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: in the Andies that you have llamas, alpacas, Yeah, and

546
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: then something and then those are like domestic versions of

547
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: some wild things. But yeah, so when you think about that,

548
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: it's like not as surprising that we did have a

549
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: number of camel species on the Great Plants and du

550
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: hunting for him and dudes were hunting them. Yeah, we

551
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: had one humped camels and not the double humped camels

552
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: of of Africa. But the camels from South America had

553
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: migrated u up the the Andes chain, crossed into North

554
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: America and basically spread across the plains as far probably

555
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: as the Canadian border, at least Montana. I mean, they

556
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: were animals that could exist at fairly high latitudes in

557
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: the Andes and so they could take fairly cold weather.

558
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: So coming out of I mean, if these early UH inhabitants,

559
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: these early arrivals in North America either came from the

560
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: coast in land or emerged from an ice free corridor.

561
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: And I don't think the ice free quarter is totally dead.

562
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: I think they're dead now. I don't think it's dead.

563
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: I think there are plenty of people who still believe

564
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: that's the case, but I think they would have encountered

565
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 1: as soon as they emerged from that quarter a suite

566
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: of animals that they had never seen before. And I

567
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: love the description I read fairly recently about um who

568
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: these people might have been. I mean, we don't know,

569
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: for example, if if the dates go back to fifteen

570
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: sixteen thousand years, I mean we we haven't really assigned

571
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: a name to maybe the first three or four thousand

572
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: years of arrivals, because they didn't seem to leave a

573
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: technology like the later Clovis people lad. But the Closed

574
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: people left us thirteen thousand years ago and down to

575
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: about eleven thousand years ago. I mean, they left us

576
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: a technology that seems to make it apparent that uh.

577
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: In the words of a recent scholar who described them,

578
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: he described them as nor Are in hemisphere wild people,

579
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: kind of like Vikings, but coming out of Siberia. And

580
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: these were people who would who it was probably a

581
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 1: very male dominated society, maybe dominated by warriors or hunters,

582
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: and they were people who would have thrown themselves, uh

583
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: into this new setting. And you know, if Paul Martin

584
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 1: is right with his plies to scene the Bloods Creek hypothesis,

585
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: Craig hypothesis. I mean, it would have only taken them

586
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: three or four hundred years to go all the way

587
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: from the vicinity of Edmonton down to the tip of

588
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: South America to Tyral del Fuego and wipe out millions

589
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: of animals along the way. That's the thing that's so

590
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: puzzling about. There's two that you just brought up that

591
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: that maybe you can speak to a little bit. Is

592
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: uh One the way Clovis, the Clovis culture, they have

593
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: this like diagnostic spear point. Okay, so when you when

594
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: you excavate an old site and you find this spear point,

595
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: the spear point is so peculiar. It's called a fluted

596
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: spear point, where they would knock a channel out of

597
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: each face of the projectile point. Um, it's it's so

598
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: peculiar that it's regarded as diagnostic. And there are many

599
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: projectile points there this way where people made it for

600
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,479
Speaker 1: a long time. They made it the same way every time,

601
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: and then they moved on and started making different points

602
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: that they're probably using in different ways and stopped making

603
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: them that way. So when you find a clothe what

604
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: what how you know a Clovis site, it's kind of

605
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: like what did their spear point technology look like? Whoever

606
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: arrived from There's nothing like trying to think out how

607
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: to put this. There's nothing like the Clovis technology in Asia.

608
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: So people think that it either is an American invention,

609
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: that the people that first came down and colonized the

610
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: New World, colonize what we now think of as a

611
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: Lower forty eight and elsewhere, that they sort of coalesced

612
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: into or developed into the Clovis culture and developed this

613
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: projectile point suitable to the type of hunting they found here,

614
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: or like an anthropological conspiracy theory is that the paleolithic

615
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: people of Europe who quinn who Some whould argue it's coincidence,

616
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: someone would argue it's not coincidence, who had a point

617
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: kind of like the Clovis point much earlier, thirty forty

618
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: years ago. They were making a point and hunting the

619
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: same suite of mega fauna in Europe with a projectile

620
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: point that's kind of similar. So there's this idea that

621
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: these fellers uh hopped in some skin boats and came over.

622
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 1: It's called I think it's called the salutary and hypothesis

623
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: or the salute connection came over, showed the people here,

624
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: what's up. The Europeans came, showed the people here, what's up?

625
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: How to do this deal? They died out, and then

626
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: what we regard as Native Americans came down afterward or

627
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: had picked up their tricks of the trade from these

628
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: European seafarers. What do you is that? What do you

629
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: think of that? I mean, like, based on your career

630
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: long exposure to this stuff, well, I mean it is

631
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: in a way. I mean, it's a it's kind of

632
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory, but it's a conspiracy theory that actually

633
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: got a national geographic and so you've got to have

634
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: some bona fides, some credentials to to make it into

635
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: a magazine of that ilk um you know. I I

636
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: some people call it racist. Well, I mean if you

637
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: make the argument that, you know, it's the Europeans who

638
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: kind of invent everything important and the Native people just

639
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: glom onto the critical technological elements, then it does have

640
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: sort of overtones of uh at least a kind of

641
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: an ethnocentrism um word. Yeah, you know, so I I

642
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 1: realized that we've not yet found a kind of a

643
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: precursor to Clovish technology in Siberia, and frankly, I wonder

644
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 1: if that's just because you know, there hasn't been great

645
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: archaeology done yet in Siberia and that we're gonna find it. Um.

646
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: I tend to think myself that this is somewhat coincidental

647
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: in part because of the difference in time frames. The

648
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: salutary In point, as you mentioned, is like a thirty

649
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: thousand year old point. Uh. It's one of the points

650
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: that you know, anatomically modern humans had in Europe within

651
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: ten thousand years or fifteen thousand years of coming out

652
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 1: of Africa. Uh. And the Clovis point, of course, occurs

653
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: in time almost twenty thousand years later. So it's the

654
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: kind of thing that that the time frame connections make

655
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: me think it would be hard to to come up

656
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: with the linkage, although you know you could. I suppose

657
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: it's in the ram of possibility to argue that some Clovis,

658
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: that maybe these Europeans got into North America left some sites,

659
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: and people who became Clovis found those sites and attempted

660
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: to emulate this kind of technology and did so very successfully.

661
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: I don't know right now what the explanation for this

662
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: particular gular mystery is. But one of the things I

663
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: really love about science in all its forms is that

664
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: we endlessly have mysteries. And you know the mysteries. I mean,

665
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: in my career, Uh, quite a number of mysteries have

666
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: been solved, but there are plenty of them out there

667
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: that and all the time I've been doing this, we

668
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: never have figured out what the answer is. And so

669
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: that's kind of the great thing about all this is

670
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 1: that there are things still to be resolved in the future. Uh,

671
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: that other generations, uh maybe can come up with a

672
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: really fine explanation for this is one that I have

673
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: to say, you know, I can't come up with a

674
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: plausible explanation for why the Salutary and culture and Point,

675
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: which is a big game hunting culture, resembles the Clovis

676
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: culture of twenty thousand years later in terms of some

677
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: not just superficial but fairly close similarities of the technology. Uh.

678
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: The one thing I will say about the two groups

679
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: is that even though they're separated in time by almost

680
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: twenty thousand years, they kind of seem to have the

681
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: same effect on the fauna of the places they inhabit.

682
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it looks to me as if we finally

683
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: invented agriculture in Europe because essentially people ultimately killed off

684
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: all the major animals. And I think at a chronology

685
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: that occurs at a later point in time in North America,

686
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: because we entered we humans entered North America later in time.

687
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: The same pattern follows. The big animals once our presence

688
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: is fully established, uh in a location are going to

689
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: go away. They disappear. And we began, in what's called

690
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: the archaic phase, to sort of spread into too smaller

691
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: micro habitats and hunt smaller animals like deer and elk

692
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: and so forth. But eventually everywhere we go we're kind

693
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: of forced in the direction ultimately of adopting agriculture. Because

694
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: we tend to over hunt animals, we tend to ultimately

695
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: take them out, so it's simply not as easy to

696
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: live as a hunter anymore. And uh, we end up

697
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 1: becoming farmers. You know. I want to get back that

698
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 1: and and press you on a part of that, but uh,

699
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: before I don't want to bring out like you're talking about,

700
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: the mysteries is kind of the greatest mystery to me

701
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: about the peopling of the New World, probably the greatest

702
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 1: mystery to everyone is that we have we've most people

703
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 1: have settled on this idea of the Bearing Land Bridge

704
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: as the entry point. But the oldest rock solid site

705
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: we have, Okay, the oldest site that like archaeologists and

706
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: anthropologists just universe really agree on as being the oldest

707
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: human settlement site in the New World is in Patagonia. Yeah,

708
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: it is. And how much ship is missing between right,

709
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: like it really, you know, And if you talk to

710
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: anthro apologies about making more fines, they're not always like

711
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: super optimistic about that we're gonna make more fines because

712
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: there's been so much just like we've done so much

713
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: road building and so much excavating and stuff that like

714
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: that like the stuff that's gonna get found has maybe

715
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: kind of been found, you know, you don't you don't

716
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: feel like people are like in the Arctic, like in

717
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: Siberia right now, there's a lot of enthusiasm about what's

718
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: the next thing that's gonna thaw out of the perma frost,

719
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, like we don't even know, like mysteries are

720
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: going to continue to like we're gonna be excited about

721
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: what's to come, but most people are like not real

722
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: excited about the prospect of finding really good intact iron

723
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: ad paleo sites, but the oldest one we have is

724
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of miles from the point of entry.

725
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: So between Baryngia in Chili, it's like, where were those

726
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: people hanging out? Well, I think that that site in Patagonia,

727
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: which you know, the latest dates I've read for it, uh,

728
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, seemed to place it between fourteen and sixteen

729
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: thousand years ago, that it very likely is good evidence

730
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: that people were working their way down the coastlines. And

731
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: I think the reason we don't have intervening sites along

732
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: the coastlines is that as a result of the end

733
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: of the Wisconsin ice Age and the rise of the oceans,

734
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 1: many of those camp sites have ended up off shore

735
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: and buried probably under two hundred feet of water. And

736
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: so what we get then is an inland site in Chile.

737
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: But they're probably were campsites, fairly regular campsites along the

738
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 1: coast leading down to that that particular point, and we've

739
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: just we've lost them as a result of the rise

740
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 1: of the seas. A detail I like about that site,

741
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 1: as they seem to have had tent steaks, tethering, some

742
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: sort of tent structure with a strip of mastodon hyde,

743
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: which is a nice detail. No, it's wonderful in it

744
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: um but so so again what you jump in? What

745
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: you gotta do? Why is it? Like you mentioned that

746
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: we could have hunter gatherer cultures that went ten thousand

747
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: years without over hunting, Like, what is it to happen?

748
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: Like if we accept that some species were driven to

749
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: extinction with the arrival of humans, right, and we like

750
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: and as debatable, but let's just say that that was

751
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: like it almost certainly was a contributing cause, right that

752
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: that a lot of these big animals, mammoth masodonds, like

753
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: their demise is contemporary at least contemporaneous with the arrival

754
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: of people, suspiciously so suspiciously. So but then what why

755
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: did how did we then go ten thousand years about

756
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: losing a continuous stream of creatures? Well, I think you know,

757
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: so again, this is kind of the plasto stine extinctions

758
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: are are one of our big mysteries. And there are

759
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: a big mystery in part because this is our most

760
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 1: profound ecological disturbance since humans arrived in North America. I mean,

761
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: we talk all the time these days about the effect

762
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: that modern society has on wildlife on the habitat destruction.

763
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: But I mean we lost thirty two genera of large

764
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: animals in the plies to sine. I mean charismatic big species,

765
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: Africa type analog animals, and hundreds of smaller ones. And

766
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: so it was a kind of a sea change for

767
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: North America. And suspiciously we arrived at just the time

768
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: that this was happening, we humans did. But the other

769
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: thing that happened, of course, is that this was the

770
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: end of the Wisconsin ice Age, and so the climate

771
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: was changing. And that's one of the great debates is

772
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: whether or not climate was the primary cause, whether or

773
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: not humans entering a landscape that had humans had not

774
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: evolved in, had not been in before, where the animals

775
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: had not evolved any kind of ability to resist us

776
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: as hunters. I mean, that kind of thing is a

777
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 1: debate that has been going on now for more than

778
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 1: a century, and it's very likely that nobody is ever

779
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: going to definitively resolve it. Some people argue that, okay,

780
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: it's partly climate, and it's partly the human fluence. The

781
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: best example we've got for the human influence is probably

782
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:08,720
Speaker 1: with the mammoths um Paul Martin and his his great

783
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: book the you know, really the last book he wrote,

784
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 1: and and the book that if people want to read

785
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: about this, I think I would encourage them to read,

786
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: is called The Twilight of the Mammoths. And Martin was

787
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: the major advocate of Plistocene overkill, but he did concede

788
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 1: that the best evidence we have is for this single species.

789
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: For some species, we don't have very much evidence of

790
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: human overkill at all because it doesn't turn up. It

791
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: doesn't turn up in campsites, it doesn't turn up at

792
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: camp sites. We don't find archaeological sites where people were

793
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: processing horses, for example, and horses during the Plistocene seemed

794
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: to have comprised in some places, like twenty of the

795
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 1: biomass of large animals. They became extinct, and yet we've

796
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: barely found any kind of archaeological sites at all that

797
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: indicate that, in contrast to the Solutrean people in Europe

798
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: who were run them over cliffs, we were running over

799
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: cliffs and corralling them. Mostly what they were doing was

800
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: corralling them and killing them, and they nearly wiped out

801
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: Europe's horses. In fact, some people believed that it was

802
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: only the domestication of the last few horses that enabled

803
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: Europe's horses to survive extinction. But unlike those solutary and

804
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: hunters in Europe, I mean, we, the North American hunters,

805
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 1: don't seem to have produced the kind of archaeological sites

806
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: that show, at least so far, a large scale destruction

807
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 1: of horses. And yet horses became extinct here. So I mean,

808
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: we're still puzzling this out as to exactly what happened.

809
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: But we somehow lost all these animals. Probably humans were

810
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: involved in some significant way for at least some of them,

811
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: and once they were gone, what we essentially had to

812
00:52:55,440 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: do was to reinvent ourselves. Two, to make the step

813
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: from being Paleolithic big game hunters to the step of

814
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: beginning to hunt smaller animals, beginning to rely more on

815
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 1: gathering fruits and food stuffs from the plant world, and

816
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: sort of instead of doing probably what the Clovis and

817
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,280
Speaker 1: fulsome people did was, which was to migrate widely across

818
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: the landscape in search of animal herds, we had to

819
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: start settling down into local habitats and I think and

820
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: learning probably learning plant life too. That's exactly. The reason

821
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: I think, to answer the question you pose to sort

822
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: of launch this, why we don't just keep causing extinctions

823
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: is because once we settle down and start living locally,

824
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: we start learning landscapes at a more intimate level. And

825
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 1: what we begin to learn is the the classic law

826
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: of a bology, Lee Bigg's law, which argues that you

827
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: have to to base your population for sheer survival on

828
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: the worst years that you experience in your landscape rather

829
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: than the best years. If you calibrate your population based

830
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: on the best years, then when the worst years come along,

831
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 1: you're going to be devastated. And so these archaic people

832
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: who survive for seven or eight thousand years without wiping

833
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: animals out and with with a very effective functioning kind

834
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: of economy seem to do it because they become consciously

835
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: aware of what a local habitat is capable of providing.

836
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: Not that they don't trade with people from other settings,

837
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: but they understand what it's like to live locally, and

838
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: that gives them these kind of packets of cultural information

839
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: about what the local habitat is capable of producing and

840
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: what the limits are in both directions, the best years

841
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: and the good years and what they seem to have done, frankly,

842
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: was to have deliberately control their populations, mostly by engaging

843
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: and infanticide, by killing excess babies when they were born,

844
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: a kind of a form of abortion really kind of

845
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,399
Speaker 1: a draconian form of abortion that enabled them to keep

846
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: their populations small enough that they weren't wiped out whenever

847
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 1: bad years or a sequence of bad years came along.

848
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: But starvation was still like certainly a factor in these societies. Oh,

849
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: I think people certainly suffered from starvation. I mean, I

850
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: think we've gotten genetic evidence today of people with you know,

851
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 1: some of the groups in the Southwest. Native people in

852
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,479
Speaker 1: the Southwest have what's called starvation gene, where basically, uh,

853
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: in contemporary times eating modern foods, they tend to become

854
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: quite a beast because they had been in their past.

855
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: Their populations selected for a type, a kind of a

856
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: genetic type that was capable of storing food to enable

857
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: them to get past these starving and lane times. And today,

858
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: when they've got abundant food, they tend to if they're

859
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: not careful, they become pretty OBEs. You know, this brings

860
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: us something We touched on this a little bit before,

861
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: But I'd like you to to to explain it more

862
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: because that balance you arguing one of your and one

863
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: of your papers, and the paper has been cited many, many,

864
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: many times. You are like that that balance the people achieved,

865
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: that that ten thousand year balance the people achieved between

866
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: um humans and animals that they were hunting, was disturbed

867
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 1: or interrupted by the introduction of the horse. Yeah, maybe unsustainably.

868
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: So can you sketch that out for people? Yeah? I think, Uh,

869
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 1: And this is what I argue in this long dure

870
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 1: a story of of Native people in North America. I

871
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: think the coming of Europeans bringing with them I mean,

872
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: and I think it's a suite of things. I think

873
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 1: it's it's not just the horse. I think it's the

874
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: arrival of the market economy, which, as the Europeans introduce it,

875
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: it essentially compels people who had been who had sort

876
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: of lived off a diversity of resources in a landscape

877
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: to specialize in the resources Let's say bison robes that

878
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: the market economy wanted. The market economy might not have

879
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: been interested in all the things they produced. It was

880
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: interested in one or two things. And the market economy,

881
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: as Europeans introduced it into North America five years ago,

882
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: was very interested in the skins of animals, and so

883
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:08,479
Speaker 1: it tended to as European traders approached native people, they

884
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: brought with them not only a desire to have these

885
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: native people specialized in a particular product out of their

886
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: resource base, but the Europeans also brought with them the

887
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: goods of the industrial revolution, because Europe had gone through

888
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: this progression of reaching a point where you couldn't live

889
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 1: by hunting animals alone, and therefore having to become hunter

890
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: gatherers and then eventually farmers. Europe, having been occupied by

891
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: humans out of Africa forty five thousand years ago, had

892
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: reached that sequence earlier in time than people in the

893
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: America's had, having been occupied by a migration out of

894
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: Africa only fifteen thousand year yars ago, And so the

895
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: whole chronology of Europeans had carried their pattern through these

896
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: various kinds of economies farther along to the point where

897
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: they had begun to produce an industrial revolution metal goods.

898
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: They produced iron, for example, and native people's all over

899
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: the world who had not yet reached the iron age

900
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: when they were first exposed to iron implements, knives, hatchets, axes, metal,

901
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 1: arrow points, spear points. They were absolutely captivated by those goods.

902
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: I mean. One of those stories I've often told is

903
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: how when Captain Cook appeared off the coast of the

904
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: island of Kawaii in the Hawaiian Islands in the seventeen eighties,

905
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: the Natives who had been ex supposed to nails as

906
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: a result of driftwood coming ashore. When they went out

907
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: to meet cooked ships, they clamored aboard, and Cook's men

908
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: reported that the Polynesians immediately started pulling the nails out

909
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 1: of every plank on the ships, and they finally had

910
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: to had to push them overboard and make them go

911
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: back ashore because they were afraid they were gonna dismantle

912
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: the damn vessels they were so eager to get metal.

913
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: Another story I told I think I told this to

914
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan when I did the podcast with him, is

915
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: about uh. I was once a an editor for a

916
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: journal called ethno History, and we received a manuscript that

917
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: was basically the editor journal of an early trader who

918
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 1: was in the Amazonian basin. And this fellow had said

919
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: he that he had replaced a trader who had been

920
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: working among the native people for two or three decades,

921
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: and when he asked the question of his predecessor, how

922
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: do I get people who have never been exposed to

923
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: the European trade to trade with us? This guy said,

924
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: it's as simple as anything. You just go into an

925
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: area where Europeans haven't been before and tie an axe

926
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: to a tree, and a month later go back. And

927
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: he wrote in his journal that he did this several times,

928
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 1: and when he would go back, there would be throngs

929
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: of people gathered around, hoping for another example of this

930
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: kind of miraculous metal that they had found hanging from

931
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: a tree. It's in some way, it's it's still happening

932
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: right now though, because if you read about groups first

933
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: contact groups coming out of the jungle in Peru, in Brazil,

934
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 1: it's like oftentimes they're they're they're coming out to the

935
01:01:53,400 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: rivers machetes and pots. Yes, that's it, it's metalware, it's metal. Well,

936
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: I agree that stuff is nice. It's nice, and so

937
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean here in in the southwest, among these pueblo

938
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: and people who made these gorgeous pots, I mean, and

939
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: they made them hundreds of years before the Spaniards ever

940
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: arrived here, and of course now sell them. I mean,

941
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: I've got pots from the various pueblos all over the

942
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: house here. They sell them in Santa fe Uh to

943
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: people who want um to take home some beautiful object

944
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: from the cultures of the Southwest. But when the Spaniards

945
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: arrived with metal, these Pueblo people almost completely lost the art,

946
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: and some of them at least of making pots, because hell,

947
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: here's a metal pan. I don't really need a pot anymore.

948
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 1: Here is an object made of metal that these Europeans

949
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 1: will trade to me, and I don't have to engage

950
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: in the painstaking work of making a ceramic pot. I mean,

951
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 1: I was just telling the story to a group of

952
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: people a few days ago about how uh Adolph Bandalier,

953
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: the archaeologists who came out to what is now a

954
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: Bandalia National Monument in the eighteen eighties, hired Indians to

955
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: help him dig up some of the sites, and they

956
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 1: were unearthing pot shards there, and those people took them

957
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: back to pueblos like Sanduel Defonso Pueblo and showed these

958
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: pot sharks to people like Maria Martinez, who became the

959
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: first of the great modern celebrated pottery makers again in

960
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: Pueblo and New Mexico. So it's like fixing up an

961
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 1: old car. It's like fixing up an old car and

962
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: learning how to do it again, basically reacquiring the skill

963
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: to be able to do it, but having the availability

964
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: of metal they had they had lost it. So when

965
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: Native people confronted these kinds of things, this market impulse

966
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: to specialize in particular resources, plus the availability of goods

967
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: that were made of metal I mean, and those included things,

968
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,919
Speaker 1: of course, like the implements of war, like firearms. So

969
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: if you trade someone a firearm, I mean, in the

970
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: first few firearms that are traded a Native people are

971
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: usually status goods, kind of like the turquoise we were

972
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: talking about a minute ago. Only the head men end

973
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: up with guns. But once you get them a gun,

974
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: I mean, think of it. They can't produce powder, they

975
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: can't produce flints or percussion caps. Later on, they don't

976
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 1: have molds to make lead bullets, and they don't have

977
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 1: gunsmiths to work on the gun if it breaks, And

978
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: so suddenly they're snagged by the market economy. They've become

979
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 1: dependent on it. From the point at which they start

980
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: using guns they now have to have someone supply them

981
01:04:54,240 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: with gunpowder, with cap percussion caps, with lead balls, and

982
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,959
Speaker 1: from that point on basically tell us what you want

983
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: us to harvest for the market economy, and we'll do it.

984
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 1: I mean in the way. Another factor had to have have been,

985
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 1: like when you talk about that reliance to what it

986
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: would have meant to neighboring groups that you were in

987
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: warfare with, well, I mean, I was just gonna say

988
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: that would add your that would like add to your

989
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: incentive to acquire this stuff. It does, and it means

990
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 1: that the people who don't acquire it who and there

991
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: were some groups, for example, who who sort of saw, okay,

992
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: this is a this is kind of a zero sum game,

993
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 1: because if we get caught in this, we're never gonna

994
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 1: get out of it. We're always gonna have to have

995
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: these these goods, and we're just gonna go further and

996
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 1: further and further into this kind of economy, and we're

997
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 1: going to forever be pulled out of our ancient traditions.

998
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: And so occasionally you would have a band or a

999
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: tribe led by someone who would sort of see the

1000
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: consequence inst is and say, okay, I'm not gonna do it.

1001
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 1: But the people in the next valley, if they did it,

1002
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: and they armed themselves with with guns, and they had

1003
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 1: the resources that the European traders gave them as opposed

1004
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: to the group that was resisting entering the trade. I

1005
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 1: mean it became an unequal struggle and the group that

1006
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: resisted ended up being overpowered and overcome by those who

1007
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: cooperated with the market economy. You know, things you're saying

1008
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 1: keep resonating me with With this article, I've been bringing

1009
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: up a lot, lady by the journalist John Lee Anderson

1010
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: who who wrote this piece in The New Yorker about

1011
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: this group, this Amerindian group who's in the process right

1012
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: now of coming into contact with the wider world. And um,

1013
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 1: you know they're they're living the borderlands Team Prue and

1014
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: Brazil and the young ones will come out and are

1015
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: interacting and and the young ones that even explain because

1016
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 1: through some through various translators, they're able to communicate, and

1017
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: the young ones explain, Um, when we get close, you know,

1018
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 1: when we go back, the old people burned the clothes.

1019
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: Like there's that resistance built in where they're they're they're

1020
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: talking about people, Um, other generations being like, don't get

1021
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: tangled up with these people. But it's irresistible. It's irresistible.

1022
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: They're coming out of the jungle naked. Yeah, it's irresistible.

1023
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 1: And you know, so there, I think we can identify

1024
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: with it if we just understand that everybody is motivated

1025
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 1: by the same human nature, regardless of the cultural overlays

1026
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 1: that we have. These people that that you've just described

1027
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 1: from South America and that I was describing basically sort

1028
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 1: of using North American and examples from the eighteenth and

1029
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, these they're just like us. And so we

1030
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 1: can if we think about it, we can find ourselves

1031
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,439
Speaker 1: in exactly that kind of situation. I mean, I think

1032
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: we probably do, you know, in our modern lives on

1033
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:19,679
Speaker 1: almost a daily basis, it's hard to resist a damn

1034
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: cell phone. I mean, I know a handful of people

1035
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:25,560
Speaker 1: who say, Okay, I'm not gonna have one of those things.

1036
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 1: But I mean, you're kind of disadvantaging yourself in a

1037
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 1: way if you resist the march of modern technology. Yeah, Like,

1038
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 1: if all your buddies are out drinking nowadays, you can't

1039
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: find them without a phone. You can't on a bar,

1040
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: and everyone went there and stayed there. But now you'd

1041
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: never catch up with them, That's right, you gotta text

1042
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 1: them and find them. And so you know what I mean,

1043
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 1: it's the same principle at work, and I think it's

1044
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: been at work among us for two hundred thousand years

1045
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:01,679
Speaker 1: and maybe in I mean that that that's as far

1046
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:04,480
Speaker 1: back as we know right now that our own species

1047
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 1: has existed. You know, if we knew more about the Neanderthals,

1048
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 1: it probably was at work among them as well, these

1049
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 1: same principles. So do you feel that, like like, and

1050
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: I know you focus a lot of your scholarly attention, um,

1051
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: not exclusively, but a lot of it on bison. Do

1052
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:25,520
Speaker 1: you feel that, let's say, just the market had been introduced,

1053
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: would they have wound up at in the same place

1054
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 1: that we did eventually, where we had effectively ecologically speaking,

1055
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:41,639
Speaker 1: we had exterminated the animal. Well, I think it would

1056
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 1: have been possible. Yeah. So, I mean Native people obviously

1057
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: they have an economy. They haven't exchanged economy before Europeans

1058
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 1: ever arrived. I mean, we know that there were trading

1059
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 1: networks just like I was describing. For this Turko is

1060
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 1: going from the mountain out the door here all the

1061
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 1: way down into Central America and the Caribbean. There were

1062
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: trade networks that stretched all over the America's so that

1063
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 1: people that were producing goods, sometimes utilitarians, sometimes status goods,

1064
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: were able to trade for things they their local area

1065
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: didn't produce, uh, and that they wanted, that they desired.

1066
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 1: And so that had been going on for for thousands

1067
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: and thousands of years in the Americans. And that's probably

1068
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not an economist, but I don't doubt

1069
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 1: that that may not be the first step toward what

1070
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: ultimately becomes kind of a global market economy where everybody

1071
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 1: specializes in something and you have trade networks that spanned

1072
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 1: the world. I think in some ways what native people

1073
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 1: in the Americans were engaging in was kind of a

1074
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 1: prototypical version of that. But uh, and of course they

1075
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 1: they also had what the market, you know, is characterized

1076
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: by in our own time, where some people accumulate lots

1077
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 1: of things for purposes of status, and so again to

1078
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,680
Speaker 1: make these native people who were here for thousands of

1079
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: years kind of more humanly understandable to us now, I mean,

1080
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 1: over in Chocko Canyon, when they were doing excavations over there,

1081
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 1: they discovered that the difference between the elites and the

1082
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:32,520
Speaker 1: peasant population in Chocko Canyon, and the elites were probably

1083
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 1: priests and their families, was so dramatic that in some

1084
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 1: instances the elites had such better food, such better nutrition,

1085
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: that they were living twice as long as peasants who

1086
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:52,640
Speaker 1: were working the fields only of a few hundred yards away.

1087
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: And there are instances where well, there was there was

1088
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:05,480
Speaker 1: one uh vault where evidently the wife or the wives

1089
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 1: of one particular priest in Chaco at one stage of

1090
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: the high development of that civilization. Uh, this room was

1091
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 1: found with sixty thousand pieces of turquoise jewelry. I mean,

1092
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 1: so this is a woman who was the Choco and

1093
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:24,879
Speaker 1: version of Amelda Marcos with all of her hundreds of shoes.

1094
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 1: I mean, no individual needs sixty thou pieces of turquoise jewelry.

1095
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,640
Speaker 1: But that was kind of a status statement on the

1096
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:36,639
Speaker 1: part of native people. So in other words, I'm saying

1097
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 1: that they also had that. It's not that they were

1098
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: trying to make everybody somehow democratically equal. There were status divisions,

1099
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:54,400
Speaker 1: but they hadn't reached the point that the capitalists market had,

1100
01:12:54,680 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 1: where so much of the natural world has been converted

1101
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: into kind of soulless commodities when Native people confronted the

1102
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:15,719
Speaker 1: capitalists market economy. For the Europeans, the animals whose hides

1103
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 1: they were trading for had no real relevance in Christian religion.

1104
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 1: Those animals lacked souls, they didn't have a plan uh

1105
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:34,679
Speaker 1: in guard God's larger scheme of things. The Native people, though,

1106
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:40,680
Speaker 1: still accorded kind of sacred rights to a lot of

1107
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 1: those uh animal species that Europeans saw is just kind

1108
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 1: of a congress of resources. So one of the places

1109
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 1: where you have a kind of a jarring difference is

1110
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: there where the European point of view is that you know,

1111
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:59,040
Speaker 1: these are just resources. These things are kind of inert

1112
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 1: matter of These animals are alive, but they're just dumb

1113
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 1: brutes and their lives don't really matter. And Native people,

1114
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: on the other hand, they sometimes struggle with this trade

1115
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:15,440
Speaker 1: exchange because they still did regard these animals as being sacred,

1116
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: soul filled uh ken really to them. So it was

1117
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 1: that's part of the psychic kind of disaster that I

1118
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:32,320
Speaker 1: think Native people go through in the eighteenth and nineteen centuries.

1119
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 1: And this happens all over the world and it'll be

1120
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:39,000
Speaker 1: happening in among these groups that that New York or

1121
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: journalists would described was describing in South America too. It

1122
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: induces a kind of a a psychological crisis that undermines

1123
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,960
Speaker 1: your worldview. And I think it's one of the reasons

1124
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 1: that Native people in the America's and I mean they

1125
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:59,720
Speaker 1: had almost no choice but to participate in the market economy,

1126
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: but it really kind of rendered a catastrophic effect on

1127
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 1: them ultimately, from which I think some people have yet

1128
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 1: to recover. Are you through with the book Keepers of

1129
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 1: the Game? He he does a good job in there

1130
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 1: with the impacts of the beaver trade a native populations

1131
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 1: where here you have an ant like like like the

1132
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 1: bison or buffalo loose so large in the mythology of

1133
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 1: the tribes, I mean on the planes if you just

1134
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 1: look at like artwork and belief systems and oral traditions.

1135
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 1: But he talks about these groups in the Northeast that

1136
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:43,760
Speaker 1: didn't really pay that much attention to the beaver. You know,

1137
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,040
Speaker 1: it was it was like a reliable resource when you

1138
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 1: needed it, but it wasn't like this defining thing. And

1139
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 1: in Keepers of the Game he gets into some of

1140
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 1: their uh, some of the people's like just kind of

1141
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: puzzlement about why is it that they're so interested in

1142
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 1: the animal, and kind of the awakening to the idea

1143
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 1: that you could get a lot of money and get

1144
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 1: a lot of goods from this thing that we had

1145
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:12,439
Speaker 1: really paid that much attention to before. Yeah, that's a

1146
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: like the guy who says, the guy who's like been

1147
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 1: stomping on Morrel's down in his cotton would grow up

1148
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:19,640
Speaker 1: his whole life and never thought about them. One day

1149
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 1: some guy knocks on his door. He's like, you know,

1150
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 1: he's just like really ship man. Yeah, they're everywhere, They're everywhere,

1151
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 1: but people really want these things. Yeah, I think, uh

1152
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:33,719
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's a very interesting book. Calvin

1153
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 1: Martin was the guy who wrote it, trying to that yeah,

1154
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:41,680
Speaker 1: and uh you know, and his his argument was a

1155
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 1: really intriguing one because he kind of argued against some

1156
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 1: of the things. I was just explaining that the fur

1157
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 1: trade had an economic basis. He argued that it was

1158
01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 1: based on it it was Indians participated in it for

1159
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 1: spiritual or religious reasons rather than economic reasons. And what

1160
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 1: he came up with was this very interesting idea that

1161
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 1: on the eve of the arrival of the Europeans, uh

1162
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 1: In the in the northeast, um Indians began contracting disease,

1163
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:22,559
Speaker 1: and they were diseases they had never encountered before. And

1164
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 1: what Calvin Martin argued was that from uh itiner at

1165
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 1: European fishermen, they were being exposed, these native people being

1166
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:34,080
Speaker 1: exposed for the first time to European diseases against which

1167
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:38,960
Speaker 1: they had no immunity influenza, and they're dying of these

1168
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:42,360
Speaker 1: diseases that their shamans can't cure, that they've never encountered before.

1169
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 1: And in their religious traditions they had uh Some of

1170
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 1: these Algonquin speaking people of that region had this tradition

1171
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: that they had a sacred pack with the animals, and

1172
01:17:56,280 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 1: the animals were supposed to keep humans healthy. And so

1173
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 1: Martin argued in that book that the circumstances of when

1174
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 1: these people were getting these diseases without ever having seen

1175
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 1: Europeans necessarily before, these are diseases that had worked inland

1176
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 1: with no explanation other than their own cultural beliefs, that

1177
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 1: they blamed the animals for those diseases and therefore engaged.

1178
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:31,160
Speaker 1: And he found one Jesuit priest who said the Indians

1179
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 1: are engaging in a war against the animals and retaliation

1180
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: for making them sick, and they discover that these Europeans

1181
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 1: want the skins of those same animals. So it was

1182
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 1: kind of a blockbuster idea when it came out, which

1183
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,639
Speaker 1: was in about nineteen eighty. But I have to say,

1184
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:55,000
Speaker 1: was it was it Lampoon? Well, it wont a bunch

1185
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 1: of prizes when it came out as being this very

1186
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:03,160
Speaker 1: imaginative and new inter rotation of why Indians participated in

1187
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 1: the fur trade. But what happened very interestingly is that

1188
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:15,280
Speaker 1: another very famous anthropologist named Shepherd Craik came along three

1189
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:17,640
Speaker 1: or four years later and called on a bunch of

1190
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:20,840
Speaker 1: his anthropologist friends to see if they could find some

1191
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:24,919
Speaker 1: evidence anywhere else in North America that something similar had happened.

1192
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 1: And they couldn't find any evidence anywhere that there had

1193
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:35,080
Speaker 1: been another incident like this, And so Craik published a

1194
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:39,400
Speaker 1: book consisting of all the studies of himself and his

1195
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: anthropos anthropologist friends trying to extrapolate Calvin Martin's argument elsewhere

1196
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: and finding no reason, uh that it seemed to work

1197
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 1: anywhere else. And he basically said, I think Calvin Martin

1198
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 1: took one document and he basically leveraged it into this

1199
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 1: argument hut without having additional supporting evidence for it. And

1200
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 1: it looks like he leveraged it too much. When you've

1201
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 1: put out your ideas, um and published them and previously

1202
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: in in journals and now in popular books, some of

1203
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:23,160
Speaker 1: them are kind of controversial. Like what sort of negative

1204
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:28,040
Speaker 1: feedback or or criticisms do you get when you call

1205
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:33,480
Speaker 1: him to question something such as, you know, the relationship

1206
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: between Native Americans and buffalo when you call him the

1207
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:38,920
Speaker 1: question that it was maybe a little more complex than

1208
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 1: we are taught in elementary school. Yeah, you must, you

1209
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:51,960
Speaker 1: must get some you must get attacked. I will say

1210
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 1: it kind of worked like this, and yeah, I you know,

1211
01:20:55,880 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: not necessarily attacked. But I've had some interesting experien arians

1212
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 1: is um particularly I mean I first published, um, that

1213
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:11,800
Speaker 1: bison ecology article in the journal American History, and so

1214
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:17,240
Speaker 1: sort of in the aftermath that, uh, some big news outlets,

1215
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 1: uh you know, found out about it, and the New

1216
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 1: York Times did a story about my interpretation what had

1217
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 1: happened to the to the bison and so um. This

1218
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 1: was in the early nineties. I just got to the

1219
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:36,360
Speaker 1: University of Montana UH to teach the history of the

1220
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:41,559
Speaker 1: West there. And one day I was I was at

1221
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 1: home in my apartment. I hadn't moved out in the

1222
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:45,759
Speaker 1: Bitter Root Valley and I was still living in Missooli

1223
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 1: in a little apartment. I was screwing around with something

1224
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:53,280
Speaker 1: in the and the phone rang, just you know, And

1225
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 1: so I picked up the phone. And I mean, I

1226
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,760
Speaker 1: would say it that way because the truth is, with

1227
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 1: a cell phone, I mean, I don't keep the ringer

1228
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 1: onto my phone, so a phone ringing is an unusual

1229
01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 1: thing for me. This was back in the nineties before

1230
01:22:08,400 --> 01:22:10,400
Speaker 1: I had a cell phone, so I actually had a

1231
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 1: landline and still didn't ring very much. And I don't

1232
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 1: talk on the phone a whole lot. But the phone rang,

1233
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 1: and I picked up the phone, and this sonorous, deep

1234
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:24,719
Speaker 1: voice says, is this Dan Flores? And I said, yes

1235
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 1: it is. And and the voice on the other hand said, well,

1236
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 1: this is Vine Deloria. I have just read your article

1237
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:38,920
Speaker 1: on bison ecology. And what I thought he was going

1238
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 1: to say next is that, you know, you son of

1239
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 1: a bitch, How in the world could you ever argue,

1240
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 1: UH that Indians were involved in the destruction of the

1241
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 1: Bison because Vine Deloria, I mean for the members of

1242
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:57,000
Speaker 1: your audience who don't know who Vine Gloria is. He was,

1243
01:22:57,680 --> 01:22:59,720
Speaker 1: I'm guilty this. I'm waiting to hear. Okay, so let

1244
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 1: me tell who he was. He's was one of the

1245
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:10,640
Speaker 1: most outspoken Native writers in the period, from probably the

1246
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies through vind Vine died about just a few

1247
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:18,160
Speaker 1: years ago, so he was still alive into the twenty

1248
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 1: first century, but especially from about the nineteen seventies. He

1249
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 1: wrote books like God Has Read and Customer Died for

1250
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,639
Speaker 1: Your Sins Yes. And he was teaching in the law

1251
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 1: school at the University of Colorado and Boulder when he

1252
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:41,439
Speaker 1: called me, and what he said was, I would like

1253
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:45,919
Speaker 1: for you to come to Boulder as my guest, because

1254
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 1: every year I have a gathering of people from the

1255
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 1: tribes and we discussed the relationship between Native people and animals,

1256
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 1: and I want you to come to the next one

1257
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 1: is my personal guest, the next one I'm having. It

1258
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:05,840
Speaker 1: was just a couple of months away. But what I

1259
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:08,759
Speaker 1: expected him to say was, I want you to speak

1260
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:13,599
Speaker 1: to the assembled group. He said, I want to tell you,

1261
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: I don't want you to say a word when you come,

1262
01:24:17,280 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 1: I want you to come as my guest. You can

1263
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:23,599
Speaker 1: sit right beside me. I'll introduce you to everybody there.

1264
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 1: But I don't want you to say a word. I

1265
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 1: want you to listen to what people say. And I said,

1266
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:32,960
Speaker 1: I would be very happy to do that. And so

1267
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 1: I went to Boulder and UH set up beside Vindeloria.

1268
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:43,679
Speaker 1: Out of the group of about thirty five people, there

1269
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 1: was one other white guy in the audience. Uh. And

1270
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:51,840
Speaker 1: did you know his sorry interrupt his motive or what

1271
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:53,840
Speaker 1: did you think his motive at that? Well? I I

1272
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:56,040
Speaker 1: thought what his motive was and I and I was

1273
01:24:56,160 --> 01:25:00,280
Speaker 1: right about it. He he just wanted me to hear

1274
01:25:00,400 --> 01:25:04,800
Speaker 1: what Native people said about their relationship with animals. Um,

1275
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 1: but not in an adversarial way, not an anniversary show,

1276
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:11,280
Speaker 1: you buddy, you know. And what he actually said to

1277
01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:15,040
Speaker 1: me when I was there is Uh. He said, that

1278
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 1: piece you did is the most interesting piece I've read

1279
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:24,320
Speaker 1: that anybody has ever done on bison. He said interesting.

1280
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 1: He didn't say the most accurate, the best. He said

1281
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 1: he found it interesting. Now, Delia went on over the

1282
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 1: next few years as friends of mine in the profession

1283
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 1: began to adopt my argument about what happened to bison,

1284
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 1: And for the sake of your readers, I'll just say

1285
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:53,600
Speaker 1: that the bison ecology article from was basically a recasting

1286
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,960
Speaker 1: of what happened to bison in the West, and it

1287
01:25:57,240 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 1: argued that, in opposition to our simplistic view that we

1288
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,519
Speaker 1: had had for a long time, that after the Civil War,

1289
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 1: white hide hunters had gone out and slaughtered these animals,

1290
01:26:09,240 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: slaughtered forty million of them are sixty million of them

1291
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:16,040
Speaker 1: in the space of about twenty five years, and that

1292
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:19,920
Speaker 1: was what had happened to them. I argued that in fact,

1293
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 1: the decline of bison had begun much earlier than that

1294
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:30,720
Speaker 1: that it was caused by multiple reasons, in part a

1295
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:33,720
Speaker 1: changing climate in the nineteenth century that produced the end

1296
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 1: of the Little Ice Age and therefore less conducive conditions

1297
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,720
Speaker 1: to having large herds of bison on the grasslands of

1298
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:44,120
Speaker 1: the Great Plains because the grasslands weren't as productive anymore.

1299
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:49,080
Speaker 1: I argued that competition from horses for grass and water.

1300
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: As horse numbers had grown, wild horses and Indian horse

1301
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 1: herds had competed with bison, and that had drawn the

1302
01:26:56,040 --> 01:27:02,560
Speaker 1: numbers of bison down. That introduced European livestock diseases like anthrax,

1303
01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 1: for example, and bovine tuberculosis had gotten among the herds

1304
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 1: as a result of UH, the overall on trails, taking

1305
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 1: oxen across the west and spreading these diseases, that that

1306
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:19,879
Speaker 1: had reduced the numbers, and that there was in effect

1307
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 1: a whole host of reasons, but that one of the

1308
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 1: reasons was also that Native people had gotten involved in

1309
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:31,720
Speaker 1: the market economy and had begun hunting bison not just

1310
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:36,120
Speaker 1: for subsistence, but in order to produce bison robes for

1311
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 1: the market economy. And so among these various causes, the

1312
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:44,960
Speaker 1: role of Indians in the hunt was one of them.

1313
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:52,000
Speaker 1: And other scholars in the field of Western history, within

1314
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 1: the next five or six years, UH, people like Elliott

1315
01:27:56,280 --> 01:28:00,960
Speaker 1: West at the University of Arkansas and Drew Eisenberg, who

1316
01:28:00,960 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 1: at the time was at Princeton. Yeah, I read one

1317
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:09,520
Speaker 1: of his books, Yeah, began writing books and articles basically

1318
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:14,519
Speaker 1: using this same interpretation. And so during the nineteen nineties,

1319
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:18,000
Speaker 1: I would say by probably two thousand and five, about

1320
01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 1: fifteen years after I published that article, essentially just about

1321
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 1: everybody in the field had adopted that argument, and so

1322
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:31,839
Speaker 1: it's become the standard argument for what happened to bison

1323
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:36,599
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century now has has replaced this earlier,

1324
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:39,599
Speaker 1: more simplistic view that we had for a long time.

1325
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:43,719
Speaker 1: And so as that's happened, one of the things I've

1326
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 1: noticed is that I haven't it's been a long time

1327
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:54,040
Speaker 1: actually since anyone from the Native community has, you know,

1328
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:58,559
Speaker 1: sort of stopped me in an elevator or at a

1329
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:03,479
Speaker 1: conference or something and wanted to express some concern that

1330
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 1: I was dissing how Indians had interacted with bison. So

1331
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:12,080
Speaker 1: I think the Native people, over time, and there have

1332
01:29:12,120 --> 01:29:14,320
Speaker 1: been some of them I've talked to who I mean,

1333
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:17,880
Speaker 1: they were very perceptive about all this, and they understood

1334
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 1: that this very likely was absolutely what happened, because they

1335
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 1: had gotten enough evidence from their own traditions that people

1336
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 1: had hunted buffalo in fact for the market. Uh. So

1337
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 1: I think that even the Native people, I mean, there's

1338
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:37,120
Speaker 1: no doubt if you you know, they're always as I've

1339
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:40,240
Speaker 1: learned from writing Coyote America, I mean, there are people

1340
01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 1: who are gonna troll you whenever they don't agree with

1341
01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:47,720
Speaker 1: your particular interpretation. So they're probably some trollers still out

1342
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:51,040
Speaker 1: there on this this particular line of argument, but it's

1343
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:55,479
Speaker 1: become the primary explanation for what happened to bison. But

1344
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: and it's not entirely isolated, because there's there's this idea

1345
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:08,120
Speaker 1: it Europeans wiped out Muscos in Alaska without ever stepping

1346
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:14,120
Speaker 1: foot on the land, just by saying, hey, if you

1347
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 1: get a minute, we'd like meat and hides. That's exactly Yeah,

1348
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,559
Speaker 1: And that was all that it took. Yeah. Well, so,

1349
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll give you another example that's directly related.

1350
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a part of the bison story. I mean,

1351
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:32,160
Speaker 1: we had argued that it was the hide hunt, wide

1352
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 1: hide hunters after the Civil War that had wiped out

1353
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:39,400
Speaker 1: bison in the United States. There never was a white

1354
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:45,800
Speaker 1: hide hunt in Canada. Canadian bison were hunted only by

1355
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:49,880
Speaker 1: Native people and by the may Tee. And yet the

1356
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:54,840
Speaker 1: same thing, explain explain. The Maytee are a group of

1357
01:30:55,760 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: Uh mixed blood Canadian people who were French from their

1358
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:09,680
Speaker 1: European backgrounds Um and several different tribes of Sinnaboins and

1359
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 1: Uh Sue and speaking people's Uh from the Indian background.

1360
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 1: And they had become a kind of a third culture

1361
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:22,120
Speaker 1: in Canada. And they had but they had an almost

1362
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:25,479
Speaker 1: like industrial precision to their hunts they did, I mean,

1363
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:27,559
Speaker 1: you know, and they had the same I mean, when

1364
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:32,439
Speaker 1: you read their traditions from the Indian side of the mix,

1365
01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:36,280
Speaker 1: they had inherited many of the same explanations of the

1366
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:39,280
Speaker 1: sacredness of the animal and the use of all the

1367
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 1: parts of it and everything that you find among the

1368
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:47,479
Speaker 1: the Lakotas or the Cheyennes, or whichever group farther south

1369
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:50,640
Speaker 1: you want to study. All of that was intact. But

1370
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:53,799
Speaker 1: indeed they did have a kind of an industrial approach.

1371
01:31:54,040 --> 01:31:58,760
Speaker 1: They went out in carts, uh the famous Red River carts,

1372
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:02,640
Speaker 1: out onto the plane and hunted bison and hauled the

1373
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:07,360
Speaker 1: products back to places like Ottawa, for example, and sold them.

1374
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:11,919
Speaker 1: But there was never a white hide hunt in Canada,

1375
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:15,160
Speaker 1: and yet the exact same thing happened to bison there

1376
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:18,280
Speaker 1: has happened in the States. Interesting about those guys that

1377
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:21,759
Speaker 1: I read about was they would on the northern planes

1378
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:24,800
Speaker 1: in the winter, when things started to freeze up, they

1379
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:29,680
Speaker 1: would dig these giant pits and fill them full of

1380
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:34,960
Speaker 1: quarters like bison quarters, wait till it all FROs good,

1381
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:38,599
Speaker 1: and then bury that stuff. And they'd be eating frozen

1382
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:43,800
Speaker 1: meat into July digging it out of those the ground.

1383
01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:45,240
Speaker 1: I mean if you think about it in the nineteenth

1384
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 1: century and earlier, I mean all the way back to

1385
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:51,080
Speaker 1: the time of you know, head smashed in in Alberta,

1386
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 1: which where bison jumps go back ten thousand years. I mean.

1387
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:58,840
Speaker 1: The great problem with killing large numbers of animals like

1388
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 1: bison is how do you preserve them? Because if you

1389
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:09,560
Speaker 1: if you drive four hundred bison off a cliff and

1390
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:16,600
Speaker 1: Alberta in August, I mean, you can only dry and

1391
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:20,759
Speaker 1: salt a small percentage of the animals if you don't

1392
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:24,840
Speaker 1: have a way to refrigerate those carcasses. And obviously ten

1393
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:28,280
Speaker 1: thousand years ago or even two hundred years ago, they didn't,

1394
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 1: And so you had to be very circumspect about trying

1395
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:39,920
Speaker 1: to drive enough and or small enough group of animals

1396
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:42,920
Speaker 1: off a cliff that you didn't end up wasting an

1397
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:48,080
Speaker 1: enormous quantity of that kill simply because you lack the

1398
01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:50,559
Speaker 1: ability to preserve enough of the meat. But there seems

1399
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:53,240
Speaker 1: to be cases where it's spun out of control, like

1400
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 1: the Southernmost jump. I believe this is the Southernmost jump

1401
01:33:56,600 --> 01:34:02,400
Speaker 1: on fire Shelter used a couple of times, and one time,

1402
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 1: it worked real well, and it got its name because

1403
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:11,719
Speaker 1: all those rotting carcasses combusted and a spontaneous combustion, hundreds

1404
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:15,320
Speaker 1: of animals and some small number were as they say

1405
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 1: in the archaeological parlance, disarticulated, I think is the word

1406
01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:23,960
Speaker 1: they disarticulated for. But then, but even then it was

1407
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:29,400
Speaker 1: like there was probably so few people and such strong

1408
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:31,439
Speaker 1: resources that you did there was no need to even

1409
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:35,479
Speaker 1: like consider finiteness now, and there were you know, they

1410
01:34:35,479 --> 01:34:38,439
Speaker 1: were even arguments some people who did Boston jumps set

1411
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:43,000
Speaker 1: so you can't really let any of them get away

1412
01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:46,600
Speaker 1: because if one of them gets away, they're gonna go

1413
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 1: tell the other bison what your stratagem was. And so

1414
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 1: when you jump them, you've got to make sure that

1415
01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:56,080
Speaker 1: you kill every one of them that goes off the jump.

1416
01:34:57,000 --> 01:35:01,320
Speaker 1: Nobody sense because look at like the power of the

1417
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:07,480
Speaker 1: lead cow and a herd of elk who carries institutional

1418
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:12,439
Speaker 1: knowledge about where to go. And we know that there

1419
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 1: are damn sure a lot of cow elk running around

1420
01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:18,360
Speaker 1: that are twenty years old who have done big migrations

1421
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:24,160
Speaker 1: that many times they put together where it's okay to

1422
01:35:24,240 --> 01:35:27,400
Speaker 1: be where it's not okay to be and how to

1423
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 1: respond to certain stimuli. And yeah, they are creatures that

1424
01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:37,880
Speaker 1: figure out what to do and what not to do.

1425
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:40,920
Speaker 1: So I could totally see that you have a population

1426
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:43,800
Speaker 1: in a valley that would get to be like, uh, yeah,

1427
01:35:43,840 --> 01:35:45,960
Speaker 1: we're not going on push this off that We're not

1428
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:48,040
Speaker 1: We're not gonna do that, and you know, and I

1429
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:52,839
Speaker 1: think that that harkens back to what is best called

1430
01:35:53,120 --> 01:35:58,040
Speaker 1: native science. I mean, it's an observation that native people

1431
01:35:58,520 --> 01:36:04,320
Speaker 1: made prop a blife from real life examples. We let

1432
01:36:04,400 --> 01:36:09,679
Speaker 1: that cow get away, and damn it, the next time

1433
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:14,559
Speaker 1: we tried to drive, I heard off that cliff some

1434
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:18,040
Speaker 1: cow looked like the same one, swerved him away and

1435
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:20,600
Speaker 1: took him off in a different direction. And so I

1436
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:25,799
Speaker 1: think it's it's kind of an observational uh kind of effect,

1437
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:29,640
Speaker 1: which is a version of science where you observe and

1438
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:35,200
Speaker 1: effect and you you related to a cause and you say, okay,

1439
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:41,000
Speaker 1: that's why that happened. So kyote America. So that made

1440
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:44,639
Speaker 1: the best seller that that was the New York Times bestseller. Yeah,

1441
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 1: the paperback is about to come out, and as one

1442
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:51,240
Speaker 1: of my friends uh has put it, I cinema, the

1443
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:54,000
Speaker 1: dust jacket of it and it's got New York Times

1444
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:56,160
Speaker 1: best Seller across the top. And it also was a

1445
01:36:56,200 --> 01:37:00,839
Speaker 1: finalist for the E. O. Wilson Literary Science Writing Prize

1446
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:03,919
Speaker 1: from Pan America. And so they put a big badge

1447
01:37:03,920 --> 01:37:06,559
Speaker 1: on the front and my my buddy wrote me back

1448
01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:08,000
Speaker 1: when I sent it to him. He said, Man, that

1449
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:11,320
Speaker 1: coyote is wearing an awful lot of blaying this time around.

1450
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:15,000
Speaker 1: Who told you on that? Like, who who didn't like

1451
01:37:15,160 --> 01:37:18,560
Speaker 1: the ideas in there? Like what sort of person was

1452
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:22,000
Speaker 1: upset by the ideas of Well, it's been kind of

1453
01:37:22,040 --> 01:37:27,320
Speaker 1: and I'm basing this on the reviews on Amazon. Oh yeah,

1454
01:37:27,360 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 1: so right, but please yeah, but you've been reading those well,

1455
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean I yeah, I do look at him because

1456
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:37,600
Speaker 1: because I'm interested in that. Uh yeah, that just that

1457
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:40,400
Speaker 1: could be just like okay, never mind, Yeah, it's right.

1458
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:42,320
Speaker 1: It's somebody who's having a bad day. I mean, I

1459
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:44,559
Speaker 1: had somebody write a review the other day that went

1460
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 1: something like, there was a review of American Serengetti and

1461
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:51,080
Speaker 1: this guy says, or this person says, I think it

1462
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:54,720
Speaker 1: was a guy says this is on Amazon says this

1463
01:37:54,760 --> 01:38:00,160
Speaker 1: book is flawlessly written. It's a quick read. It it's

1464
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:04,320
Speaker 1: just It's marvelous from start to to end. Three stars

1465
01:38:04,320 --> 01:38:07,519
Speaker 1: out of five. Yeah. Yeah, well you know why. He

1466
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:10,840
Speaker 1: was probably pissed because it took an extra day. Okay

1467
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 1: are you familiar are you for with Poco pads? Okay,

1468
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:17,839
Speaker 1: so Poco pads. This guy with Jack's welding. Jack's plastic

1469
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:23,720
Speaker 1: welding makes a like a sleeping pad. Okay, a very

1470
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 1: heavy duty sealed welding raft. Yeah, you can use it

1471
01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:34,439
Speaker 1: to as a bench cover. Um, the heaviest ship. Not

1472
01:38:34,560 --> 01:38:37,800
Speaker 1: a backpack raft, but indestructible sleeping pad that when you

1473
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:42,000
Speaker 1: get away, you just dried off the top. So I

1474
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:43,599
Speaker 1: was looking at it. I was not at the super

1475
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:46,160
Speaker 1: there's the biggest one there, and I see it, like

1476
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:48,800
Speaker 1: and you know, everybody knows these are great pads. But

1477
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:50,720
Speaker 1: it's got a it's got like a two and a

1478
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 1: half star review. Okay, so, um, that's weird how it

1479
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,080
Speaker 1: had because it's only been reviewed a couple of times.

1480
01:38:59,120 --> 01:39:01,479
Speaker 1: And I read him in like five stars, five stars.

1481
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:08,520
Speaker 1: And some guy who's mad at Amazon about some delivery

1482
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 1: problem that he had had in the past and had

1483
01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:19,680
Speaker 1: given Amazon a one star review. Um, but gave it

1484
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 1: to Jack's plastic Welding, who hasn't sold many of these

1485
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:26,280
Speaker 1: pads and therefore gave the illusion of this being a

1486
01:39:26,280 --> 01:39:31,519
Speaker 1: shitty pet. That's an example. But I don't think that

1487
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,520
Speaker 1: when you read the reviews, I don't think you're capturing

1488
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:42,040
Speaker 1: the general conversation around something. Well, yeah, I would agree

1489
01:39:42,080 --> 01:39:46,400
Speaker 1: with you absolutely on that. I mean, the reviews are

1490
01:39:47,240 --> 01:39:49,960
Speaker 1: you know, they're a slice, but they do give you,

1491
01:39:50,000 --> 01:39:52,320
Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that you know, Amazon

1492
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 1: reviews I think do give you as a as a author.

1493
01:39:56,920 --> 01:39:59,559
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of an impression of how something

1494
01:39:59,680 --> 01:40:03,559
Speaker 1: is getting received. And so to me, for something like

1495
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:08,080
Speaker 1: Coyote America, Uh, what I kind of say is that

1496
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:14,559
Speaker 1: there are camps of takes on a book like that,

1497
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 1: and I relate that to the fact that coyotes themselves

1498
01:40:19,360 --> 01:40:26,080
Speaker 1: are extremely political. Political is being gluten intolerant. Yeah, And

1499
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:30,759
Speaker 1: so the fact that this is an astonishingly political animal

1500
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:34,800
Speaker 1: means that there are people who have picked that book

1501
01:40:34,920 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 1: up or ordered it from Amazon and didn't really look

1502
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:41,559
Speaker 1: too closely at what was going to be in it

1503
01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:45,439
Speaker 1: and opened it up and said, well, and this is

1504
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:49,679
Speaker 1: what some people have said. I was expecting a bunch

1505
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:54,080
Speaker 1: of animal stories like Ernest Thompson Seaton used to ride

1506
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:57,639
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, and instead I had to read

1507
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:01,120
Speaker 1: about how I mean and I had just I had.

1508
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:03,800
Speaker 1: I was forced into reading this. This author forced me

1509
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:09,600
Speaker 1: to read how kyotes have been poisoned relentlessly for decades,

1510
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: and I just I didn't want to read that, but

1511
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:15,160
Speaker 1: he forced me to read it. One star out of five.

1512
01:41:17,200 --> 01:41:22,480
Speaker 1: So if listeners want to go, we Uh interviewed Dan Uh.

1513
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:29,280
Speaker 1: I believe episode thirty four or thirty six. Yeah, you

1514
01:41:29,280 --> 01:41:31,639
Speaker 1: haven't wait, can you? I was gonna say thirty three,

1515
01:41:32,080 --> 01:41:35,440
Speaker 1: but yeah, when he scrolled through it will say Seattle, Washington,

1516
01:41:35,439 --> 01:41:37,799
Speaker 1: and they'll say Dann Flores. But it was thirties somewhere

1517
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:40,280
Speaker 1: right now. I might come back and tell you what

1518
01:41:40,320 --> 01:41:43,040
Speaker 1: it wasn't a second here. And we talked at length

1519
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:45,479
Speaker 1: about both the Dan's books that were calling at the

1520
01:41:45,479 --> 01:41:49,599
Speaker 1: time Coyote America, I call him kyotes. We talked about that.

1521
01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:53,599
Speaker 1: Dan tells me um during that interview why I call

1522
01:41:53,720 --> 01:41:56,800
Speaker 1: him coyotes, Why he calls him coyotes? And he said

1523
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:59,640
Speaker 1: something that I have I have referred to quite a

1524
01:41:59,720 --> 01:42:04,040
Speaker 1: number of times since, which was that anybody who shoots

1525
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:08,080
Speaker 1: one never calls it a coyote. Yeah, yeah, anyone who's

1526
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:10,680
Speaker 1: killed one calls the kayo, which I'm sure there's some deviations,

1527
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:14,360
Speaker 1: just like there are political conservatives who are gluten and tolerant,

1528
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:17,240
Speaker 1: but generally it's a left wing disease, so there's some

1529
01:42:17,360 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 1: variation there. But uh so go listen to that. If

1530
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:23,640
Speaker 1: you want to hear about the two books, you have

1531
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:26,760
Speaker 1: two boks go at the same time. American Serengetti and

1532
01:42:26,760 --> 01:42:31,160
Speaker 1: and you're in America Cowardy America and Coardy America is

1533
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:35,400
Speaker 1: now coming out in paperback, and American Serengetti is already

1534
01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:42,320
Speaker 1: in paperback. And they're both also in audio CD form too,

1535
01:42:43,439 --> 01:42:46,920
Speaker 1: So check those out, and check out the interview that

1536
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:51,080
Speaker 1: we did. Did you find the number? You've been off

1537
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:55,479
Speaker 1: a quiet yet? Just listening? Just listening, Go back and

1538
01:42:55,479 --> 01:42:57,760
Speaker 1: listen to episode thirty three, which was really was one

1539
01:42:57,760 --> 01:43:00,840
Speaker 1: of It was a very pop of the episode for us.

1540
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:04,880
Speaker 1: People loved it. That was demanded and demanded more. Yeah,

1541
01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:10,639
Speaker 1: that was really Uh the first interview I did for

1542
01:43:10,680 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: either one of those books, um, because they hadn't come

1543
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:16,720
Speaker 1: out now, they hadn't come out yet. I mean I

1544
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 1: I ended up getting an interview on Morning America or

1545
01:43:22,400 --> 01:43:26,879
Speaker 1: a good Morning, uh morning edition I'm sorry on NPR

1546
01:43:27,320 --> 01:43:32,480
Speaker 1: with David Green uh for the Coyote book. Uh, and

1547
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:35,759
Speaker 1: quite a number of other things on various regional NPR

1548
01:43:35,880 --> 01:43:38,960
Speaker 1: stations and so forth, and another podcast or two. But

1549
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:41,519
Speaker 1: that was the one that you did, was the first one.

1550
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:46,800
Speaker 1: Do you mind real quick? Um, just sketching out with

1551
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:50,759
Speaker 1: each of those books, just so people understand. Yeah, Cayote

1552
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:56,160
Speaker 1: America is, um, a biography of the animal in effect,

1553
01:43:56,240 --> 01:43:58,400
Speaker 1: is what it is. It's an attempt to write a

1554
01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:03,320
Speaker 1: biography of the coyote from its evolution in North America,

1555
01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:06,719
Speaker 1: which goes back to the the beginnings of the canad

1556
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:12,639
Speaker 1: family five point three million years ago, through it's long

1557
01:44:12,960 --> 01:44:20,000
Speaker 1: roller coaster like history in America, including about ten thousand

1558
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:24,480
Speaker 1: years of time when it was revered as a principal

1559
01:44:24,720 --> 01:44:30,160
Speaker 1: deity by the native people of the American West everywhere

1560
01:44:30,160 --> 01:44:34,280
Speaker 1: that coyotes were found. UM. And I do a chapter

1561
01:44:34,400 --> 01:44:40,200
Speaker 1: called Old Man America in the book which takes on

1562
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:44,080
Speaker 1: that story and and relates uh in my own prose

1563
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:48,000
Speaker 1: four different what I think are sort of representative old

1564
01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:53,080
Speaker 1: Man coyote stories, which are, if if one stops to

1565
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:56,360
Speaker 1: think about it, this is the oldest literature in North America.

1566
01:44:56,479 --> 01:45:00,840
Speaker 1: This is our our oldest body of literally stories. They

1567
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:04,559
Speaker 1: were handed down orally and then finally set down UH

1568
01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:07,960
Speaker 1: in print at the beginning of the twentieth century. So

1569
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:12,120
Speaker 1: the story can the Coyotes biography continues from that through

1570
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:16,559
Speaker 1: its UH first encounters with Europeans in the nineteenth century,

1571
01:45:16,680 --> 01:45:21,679
Speaker 1: people like Lewis and Clark Uh Mark Twain didn't quite

1572
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: know what to call it. Yeah, they don't. In fact,

1573
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:26,200
Speaker 1: the coyote has called for most of the nineteenth century

1574
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:29,160
Speaker 1: the prairie wolf. That's the name that Lewis and Clark

1575
01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:32,720
Speaker 1: gave it, and so for most Americans through about the

1576
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:36,639
Speaker 1: eighteen seventies or eighteen eighties, that's what the coyote was called.

1577
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:41,560
Speaker 1: But by the middle of the century, as as American

1578
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:44,439
Speaker 1: settlement had begun to get out to the Southwest to

1579
01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:48,599
Speaker 1: places like here Santa Fe, New Mexico, they encountered people

1580
01:45:48,680 --> 01:45:53,439
Speaker 1: who were using the old Aztec word for the animal

1581
01:45:53,840 --> 01:45:58,960
Speaker 1: that had been hispanicized into coyote. And so by the

1582
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:02,519
Speaker 1: time Mark Twain and rights Roughing in in eighteen seventy three,

1583
01:46:03,240 --> 01:46:08,080
Speaker 1: coyote has become at least among people who read his books.

1584
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:13,600
Speaker 1: UH kind of the accepted form of pronunciation, although a

1585
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:17,759
Speaker 1: two syllable form had survived in much of the rural

1586
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:21,120
Speaker 1: parts of the country as a result of the mountain

1587
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:24,720
Speaker 1: men who were in the Southwest and who encountered that

1588
01:46:25,160 --> 01:46:29,160
Speaker 1: that same sort of transition from prairie wolf to a

1589
01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:31,439
Speaker 1: new form, and they called it. I think they thought

1590
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,640
Speaker 1: coyote was a little bit too fancy. They called it

1591
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:37,400
Speaker 1: a coyote. If you're from Arkansas, maybe coyote sounds a

1592
01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:40,760
Speaker 1: little fancy. So uh, anyway, we ended up with two

1593
01:46:40,800 --> 01:46:44,280
Speaker 1: different pronunciations, one sort of in the rural middle part

1594
01:46:44,320 --> 01:46:48,040
Speaker 1: of the country and then around the coast, uh coyote.

1595
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:51,080
Speaker 1: And of course when the Wily Coyote cartoons come along,

1596
01:46:51,400 --> 01:46:55,280
Speaker 1: they began to convert a lot of people who uh

1597
01:46:55,760 --> 01:46:58,600
Speaker 1: hadn't thought about how they were going to pronounce the

1598
01:46:58,600 --> 01:47:02,600
Speaker 1: animal's name and the kai yote pronouncers. But anyway, the

1599
01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:06,719
Speaker 1: story goes on through our attempts in the twentieth century.

1600
01:47:06,760 --> 01:47:09,360
Speaker 1: I mean, this is an animal that we actually in

1601
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:15,799
Speaker 1: the United States attempted to exterminate through a federal agency

1602
01:47:15,880 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: known as the Bureau of Biological Survey. It's still around now.

1603
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:25,440
Speaker 1: It's called wildlife services, and this agency poisoned and invented

1604
01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:29,880
Speaker 1: poisons for the purpose millions and millions of coyotes in

1605
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:34,000
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, only to have us discover and this

1606
01:47:34,080 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 1: is the rare environmental story that goes in this kind

1607
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:40,760
Speaker 1: of direction, that no matter what we did, we not

1608
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:43,679
Speaker 1: only couldn't get rid of coyotes, we not only couldn't

1609
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:47,080
Speaker 1: exterminate them, but in fact, our efforts to do so

1610
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:51,040
Speaker 1: ended up spreading them out of the West across all

1611
01:47:51,080 --> 01:47:53,400
Speaker 1: of the rest of the United States. And so they

1612
01:47:53,520 --> 01:47:55,800
Speaker 1: now ended up in every single state except for a

1613
01:47:55,840 --> 01:48:01,759
Speaker 1: white uh, and are in every large and small city

1614
01:48:02,040 --> 01:48:05,600
Speaker 1: in the United States. They've even moved into urban areas.

1615
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:09,240
Speaker 1: So um, it's the story of I argue in the

1616
01:48:09,280 --> 01:48:13,920
Speaker 1: book kind of really America's other than us, probably the

1617
01:48:13,920 --> 01:48:18,240
Speaker 1: most interesting mammal in North American history. No other creature

1618
01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:23,320
Speaker 1: has a biography that even approaches uh, something like the

1619
01:48:23,360 --> 01:48:26,920
Speaker 1: coyote has. And I kind of ended with talking about

1620
01:48:28,160 --> 01:48:31,920
Speaker 1: uh wily coyote and what effect Wily has had on

1621
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:36,800
Speaker 1: American culture more than you would think. And even Walt Disney,

1622
01:48:36,880 --> 01:48:39,800
Speaker 1: who helped sort of change attitudes towards coyotes in the

1623
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:45,639
Speaker 1: sixties seventies and uh those decades by doing six different

1624
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:50,439
Speaker 1: pro coyote Disney films in those years. So that's what

1625
01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:55,120
Speaker 1: that book is about. American Serengetti is a book that's

1626
01:48:55,200 --> 01:48:58,280
Speaker 1: about the region of the United States, the American Great

1627
01:48:58,320 --> 01:49:03,559
Speaker 1: Plains that once was the analog of East Africa, the

1628
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:07,600
Speaker 1: Massaia Mara and the Serengetti with I mean, it was

1629
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:10,559
Speaker 1: one of the ecological wonders of the world up until

1630
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:15,600
Speaker 1: about nineteen hundred or so, with this marvelous aggregate of

1631
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:19,040
Speaker 1: large grazing animals, the bison that we've been talking about

1632
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:23,360
Speaker 1: a lot tonight, Uh, that you, of course have written

1633
01:49:23,360 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 1: about in a very successful book, and I've written about

1634
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:33,639
Speaker 1: some too. And along with bison, wild horses that were

1635
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 1: reintroduced having evolved on the Great Plains, reintroduced by Europeans

1636
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:41,759
Speaker 1: back to America thousands of years after they had become extinct,

1637
01:49:42,040 --> 01:49:47,559
Speaker 1: and that just spread in uh an instant across this

1638
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:53,559
Speaker 1: old ecological homeland of theirs uh prong horn antelope, gray wolves,

1639
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:57,439
Speaker 1: grizzly bears, which we think of them as mountain animals now,

1640
01:49:57,560 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 1: but they were originally were a Great Lanes animals. Yeah,

1641
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:03,720
Speaker 1: didn't Custer kill one in South Dakota, Custer Kill one

1642
01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:05,960
Speaker 1: in South Dakota. And one of the stories I tell

1643
01:50:06,040 --> 01:50:09,200
Speaker 1: people when I talk about this book is everybody has

1644
01:50:09,280 --> 01:50:15,000
Speaker 1: seen The Revenant with Leonardo Dicac that oh my god,

1645
01:50:15,120 --> 01:50:18,880
Speaker 1: you're ruined my night. Well, I mean the story that story, Yeah,

1646
01:50:19,040 --> 01:50:23,120
Speaker 1: opened the dank gass BC forest instead of where it

1647
01:50:23,160 --> 01:50:26,280
Speaker 1: belongs rightfully on the Willow line by Perian Zones. The

1648
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:30,240
Speaker 1: American West was just like people should be hung for that. Yeah,

1649
01:50:30,280 --> 01:50:32,639
Speaker 1: on the great planes. This story was a real story.

1650
01:50:32,680 --> 01:50:36,240
Speaker 1: It happened to you glass, but it happened out on

1651
01:50:36,280 --> 01:50:40,479
Speaker 1: the planes rather than in the glass. Had no child, Yeah,

1652
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:45,799
Speaker 1: he had not not exact revenge. He had no Indian

1653
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:50,120
Speaker 1: child's and did not take revenge. Confronted the people that

1654
01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:53,479
Speaker 1: left him, and was satisfied knowing that they had to

1655
01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:56,000
Speaker 1: live the rest of their lives that he was still

1656
01:50:56,040 --> 01:50:58,040
Speaker 1: alive and they had left him. Yeah, with the guilt

1657
01:50:58,080 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 1: of having left him. But it happened down on the

1658
01:51:00,479 --> 01:51:04,160
Speaker 1: plains because that's where the grizzly bears were. So anyway,

1659
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:07,439
Speaker 1: this is a book about all these these creatures of

1660
01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:11,680
Speaker 1: the Great Plains uh in the primarily the eighteenth and

1661
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:17,280
Speaker 1: nineteen centuries, and uh, I sort of take them one

1662
01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:21,479
Speaker 1: at a time. I do prong horns in a chapter,

1663
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:25,760
Speaker 1: wild horses in a chapter, gray wolves in a chapter, uh,

1664
01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:28,479
Speaker 1: grizzly bears and a chapter, bison in a chapter, and

1665
01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:31,240
Speaker 1: I do a chapter on coyotes, which were the jackals

1666
01:51:31,280 --> 01:51:34,720
Speaker 1: of the planes too. And then the book finally ends

1667
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:38,200
Speaker 1: up going to our possibilities in the twenty first century,

1668
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:42,320
Speaker 1: primarily through what's known as the American Pray Reserve Project

1669
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:47,560
Speaker 1: in Montana of trying to recreate and rewild on Americans

1670
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:52,360
Speaker 1: serengetti that will ultimately have all those animals in place

1671
01:51:52,400 --> 01:51:56,639
Speaker 1: again in a wildlife park that will be we hope,

1672
01:51:56,760 --> 01:51:59,599
Speaker 1: something like twice the size of Yelso it's a long

1673
01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:03,040
Speaker 1: term project, but it's spent under wife for about fifteen years,

1674
01:52:03,040 --> 01:52:06,719
Speaker 1: not not without speaking of controversy. Now without controversy itself,

1675
01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:10,080
Speaker 1: plenty of controversy surrounding it, to be sure, weirdly seems

1676
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 1: to be like the main story that is picked up

1677
01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:18,240
Speaker 1: in the media is the controversy, at which imagine a

1678
01:52:18,320 --> 01:52:21,360
Speaker 1: lot of ideas probably go through that phase. I would

1679
01:52:21,439 --> 01:52:23,920
Speaker 1: like to remind people when I'm talking, when I when

1680
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:26,080
Speaker 1: I do when I give public lectures and I'm talking

1681
01:52:26,080 --> 01:52:30,120
Speaker 1: about the conservation history of this country, I always like

1682
01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:37,880
Speaker 1: to remind people how pissed everyone was at Theodore Roosevelt

1683
01:52:38,800 --> 01:52:44,240
Speaker 1: for laying out the national forest system. Pissed and then

1684
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:46,519
Speaker 1: a couple of years go by and they carve his

1685
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:51,280
Speaker 1: face in a big giant mountain. But at the time,

1686
01:52:52,400 --> 01:52:54,639
Speaker 1: live it. Yeah, I live it, I mean, and live

1687
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:57,599
Speaker 1: it for I mean, when he set aside the Grand

1688
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,880
Speaker 1: Canyon as a national mon month, I mean, you know,

1689
01:53:02,000 --> 01:53:04,599
Speaker 1: so we've got a review of the national monuments going

1690
01:53:04,640 --> 01:53:09,719
Speaker 1: on now, all the way back to the Escalante Grand

1691
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:15,920
Speaker 1: Staircase in years and three, reviewing George W. Bush's Monuments

1692
01:53:15,920 --> 01:53:19,800
Speaker 1: review and Clinton's monuments as well on Obama's monuments. Yeah. Well,

1693
01:53:19,880 --> 01:53:24,560
Speaker 1: when Teddy Roosevelt decided that the Grand Kenyon he was

1694
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:27,599
Speaker 1: going to set aside as a national monument, I mean,

1695
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:31,599
Speaker 1: there were people who were absolutely furious at the idea.

1696
01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:36,599
Speaker 1: And of course it's basically a world class site. Became

1697
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:40,639
Speaker 1: a National Park fourteen years later and is a world

1698
01:53:40,720 --> 01:53:44,519
Speaker 1: class site. So I mean, what I really would love

1699
01:53:44,560 --> 01:53:48,240
Speaker 1: to see, I think it's this American Prayers Air Project

1700
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:51,919
Speaker 1: is the great conservation project of the twenty one century.

1701
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:54,599
Speaker 1: It's gonna take decades, but I would love to see

1702
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:58,840
Speaker 1: it as our version of Yellowstone National Park. I mean,

1703
01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:02,280
Speaker 1: we're the first country ever creates a national park system,

1704
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:05,759
Speaker 1: the United States is, but we passed over the Great

1705
01:54:05,800 --> 01:54:09,920
Speaker 1: Plains in doing it, and I think now is our

1706
01:54:10,040 --> 01:54:15,280
Speaker 1: opportunity to circle back and take this area that once

1707
01:54:15,439 --> 01:54:19,360
Speaker 1: was one of the great spectacles of the world in

1708
01:54:19,520 --> 01:54:24,320
Speaker 1: terms of wild animals, and do like Africa has done

1709
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:31,439
Speaker 1: and acquire for ourselves. Uh, this marvelous historic Great Plains

1710
01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:34,520
Speaker 1: animal park. Yeah, I should touch. Actually I brought up

1711
01:54:34,560 --> 01:54:37,680
Speaker 1: the idea of it, of its controversial nature, and I should.

1712
01:54:38,320 --> 01:54:40,040
Speaker 1: Rather than leaving that hangout, I just want to explain

1713
01:54:40,080 --> 01:54:42,280
Speaker 1: a couple of points about it. Where you already have

1714
01:54:42,440 --> 01:54:46,120
Speaker 1: some large federally managed landscapes up there. So you have

1715
01:54:46,280 --> 01:54:51,160
Speaker 1: the Charles M. Russell Refuge along the Missouri Breaks, and

1716
01:54:51,400 --> 01:54:55,240
Speaker 1: you have some some monument, some some national monument, national

1717
01:54:55,240 --> 01:54:58,120
Speaker 1: monument that was designated on the Clinton administration, the Missouri

1718
01:54:58,160 --> 01:55:01,800
Speaker 1: Breaks National Monument. And what what the Prayer Reserve is

1719
01:55:01,800 --> 01:55:04,680
Speaker 1: doing is taking money. And critics of it always like

1720
01:55:04,720 --> 01:55:07,480
Speaker 1: to point out that it's generally outside money. It's money

1721
01:55:08,320 --> 01:55:11,840
Speaker 1: that's very important for people to express for whatever reason,

1722
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:15,480
Speaker 1: that they're taking money from people donated around the country

1723
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:19,520
Speaker 1: to buy land that just comes up for sale. So

1724
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:24,440
Speaker 1: we're talking about willing seller willing buyer. This is not

1725
01:55:26,080 --> 01:55:28,800
Speaker 1: it's not no one's like getting land for free. It's

1726
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:31,320
Speaker 1: not the government giving anyone land. It's just they're starting

1727
01:55:31,360 --> 01:55:36,320
Speaker 1: out with existing parcels of public land. And when properties

1728
01:55:36,360 --> 01:55:40,920
Speaker 1: come up for sale in the vicinity, they go and

1729
01:55:40,960 --> 01:55:45,640
Speaker 1: say what you're asking for the place, The person names

1730
01:55:45,720 --> 01:55:49,000
Speaker 1: the price they're asking and it goes to auction or Hawevard.

1731
01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:52,880
Speaker 1: Also happens in the American Prayer Reserve buys the land,

1732
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:56,840
Speaker 1: so the seller got exactly what they're after. They got

1733
01:55:57,240 --> 01:56:02,800
Speaker 1: market value for the land. Oftentimes the land you'll you'll

1734
01:56:02,840 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 1: also attain grazing rights on joining pieces of land, and

1735
01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:13,320
Speaker 1: so they will take over grazing rights and an opt

1736
01:56:13,800 --> 01:56:17,400
Speaker 1: to not opt to not always exercise them through the

1737
01:56:17,400 --> 01:56:20,040
Speaker 1: grazing of cattle. So they do have a program out

1738
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:24,800
Speaker 1: there that deals with grazing cattle on land. The criticism

1739
01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:27,400
Speaker 1: comes from people who look and they say that and

1740
01:56:27,760 --> 01:56:30,440
Speaker 1: the and it's understandable, and yeah, and I think you

1741
01:56:30,480 --> 01:56:32,800
Speaker 1: need to be sympathetic to it, where someone's like, so

1742
01:56:32,920 --> 01:56:39,360
Speaker 1: my great grandfather, my grandfather, my father invested very heavily

1743
01:56:39,400 --> 01:56:43,320
Speaker 1: in this idea and sacrifice a tremendous amount um of

1744
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:49,120
Speaker 1: work and effort to make the desert bloom right that

1745
01:56:49,120 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 1: that we came in and raise cattle and help feed

1746
01:56:53,680 --> 01:56:57,120
Speaker 1: the nation and establish an economy that would allow either

1747
01:56:57,240 --> 01:57:01,760
Speaker 1: to be schools and towns. And we built this out

1748
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:06,600
Speaker 1: of nothing. And to now have someone say thanks, but

1749
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:11,400
Speaker 1: no thanks, it's insulting to people. Um, the American praiser

1750
01:57:11,680 --> 01:57:15,920
Speaker 1: at one time used to it has this long line

1751
01:57:15,960 --> 01:57:18,280
Speaker 1: of ideas that are kind of strung out. At one time.

1752
01:57:18,720 --> 01:57:21,280
Speaker 1: There's this idea the Buffalo Commons, which is similar. Remember

1753
01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:25,080
Speaker 1: the writer Bill Kittridge in his book Hole in the Sky,

1754
01:57:25,360 --> 01:57:29,600
Speaker 1: Um pointed out that going to Jordan, Montana and mentioning

1755
01:57:29,600 --> 01:57:32,080
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Commons was a sure fire way to get

1756
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:35,520
Speaker 1: your ask it. So that when I said, that's the

1757
01:57:35,560 --> 01:57:41,800
Speaker 1: controversial part is it's controversial and spirit only. It's not

1758
01:57:41,880 --> 01:57:44,920
Speaker 1: that someone's like stealing someone's lands, just someone's saying, like,

1759
01:57:45,160 --> 01:57:49,120
Speaker 1: how can you come and act like what we've done

1760
01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:53,320
Speaker 1: here isn't the best thing for the country. How can

1761
01:57:53,360 --> 01:57:58,000
Speaker 1: you say that you want to tear up our roads,

1762
01:57:58,520 --> 01:58:04,200
Speaker 1: raise our buildings, rip out our fences because what was

1763
01:58:04,280 --> 01:58:06,960
Speaker 1: here before us is more precious to you than what

1764
01:58:07,480 --> 01:58:13,280
Speaker 1: we created. Like, that's the idea. And I don't even

1765
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:15,440
Speaker 1: really need to articulate the other side, because the other

1766
01:58:15,480 --> 01:58:20,160
Speaker 1: side has to do with, you know, more n like

1767
01:58:20,240 --> 01:58:25,680
Speaker 1: some fairly unassailable notions of of wildlife, habitat and and

1768
01:58:25,720 --> 01:58:28,440
Speaker 1: in this case, free market economies. But that kind of

1769
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:34,200
Speaker 1: sketches out for you why it pisses people off, is yeah,

1770
01:58:34,520 --> 01:58:37,840
Speaker 1: um yeah, I think that's that's a good expression of it,

1771
01:58:38,000 --> 01:58:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, And like you, I think we can all

1772
01:58:41,040 --> 01:58:45,120
Speaker 1: be sympathetic to that. Um you know. I mean I

1773
01:58:45,200 --> 01:58:50,800
Speaker 1: come from Louisiana, where my grandfather and my father and

1774
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:55,400
Speaker 1: my brother were all in the oil business. But that

1775
01:58:55,560 --> 01:59:02,960
Speaker 1: is a business in Louisiana that uh doesn't It doesn't

1776
01:59:03,000 --> 01:59:08,000
Speaker 1: have a continuing application into the future. It's not. I mean,

1777
01:59:08,440 --> 01:59:13,720
Speaker 1: primarily the oil resources are depleted, and so in my generation,

1778
01:59:14,000 --> 01:59:17,520
Speaker 1: there's no possibility to continue to do that. I mean,

1779
01:59:17,560 --> 01:59:20,400
Speaker 1: it might be possible, I suppose at some point to

1780
01:59:20,440 --> 01:59:23,600
Speaker 1: go in and frack or horizontal drill and manage to

1781
01:59:23,640 --> 01:59:26,920
Speaker 1: extract those resources. But what I'm saying is I'm from

1782
01:59:26,920 --> 01:59:32,000
Speaker 1: a generation that can't do what my father, my grandfather

1783
01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:35,960
Speaker 1: ended up doing for their livelihood. I think in Montana,

1784
01:59:36,440 --> 01:59:39,720
Speaker 1: on these ranches, there is a sense that they can

1785
01:59:39,760 --> 01:59:44,120
Speaker 1: continue to do this, and so that's I think, as

1786
01:59:44,160 --> 01:59:48,520
Speaker 1: as you said, Steven, that's kind of why there's a

1787
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:53,400
Speaker 1: a sort of a spiritual resistance among some people to it.

1788
01:59:54,480 --> 01:59:57,880
Speaker 1: Um I would say, you know, on the other hand,

1789
01:59:57,960 --> 02:00:02,240
Speaker 1: that it's a good thing to remember that this is

1790
02:00:02,280 --> 02:00:06,360
Speaker 1: not a federal project. This is not the federal government

1791
02:00:06,440 --> 02:00:10,520
Speaker 1: coming in and creating a new national park or a

1792
02:00:10,680 --> 02:00:16,640
Speaker 1: national monument. This is private enterprise doing what it's always

1793
02:00:16,800 --> 02:00:21,960
Speaker 1: done in America, taking private land and then doing what

1794
02:00:22,040 --> 02:00:24,680
Speaker 1: they want to do with it. So it can be

1795
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:28,160
Speaker 1: in a way, the American Prayer Reserve can be defended

1796
02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:34,200
Speaker 1: as part of this traditional kind of private enterprise, capitalist approach.

1797
02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:37,160
Speaker 1: It's just that what they want to do with it

1798
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:43,000
Speaker 1: is not what private uh developers have often attempted to do.

1799
02:00:43,240 --> 02:00:46,760
Speaker 1: So it seems fishy. Two people, Yeah, it seems quietly

1800
02:00:46,880 --> 02:00:50,560
Speaker 1: bought a ranch and then over time people realize that

1801
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:53,560
Speaker 1: you didn't run cattle on it, and that you tore

1802
02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:58,640
Speaker 1: up the fences. Um, it might go unnoticed. But articulating

1803
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:03,480
Speaker 1: a grand vision, yeah, makes people uneasy. Um and you

1804
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:06,640
Speaker 1: But anyways, you probably explain a lot of this, But

1805
02:01:06,920 --> 02:01:09,080
Speaker 1: I do. I mean I and I try to place

1806
02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:13,680
Speaker 1: this whole story in the context of how in the

1807
02:01:13,760 --> 02:01:18,840
Speaker 1: twentieth century we tried on numerous occasions, realizing that the

1808
02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:22,160
Speaker 1: great planes had been passed over for a kind of

1809
02:01:22,200 --> 02:01:27,200
Speaker 1: an African or Yellowstone like wildlife park. We tried on

1810
02:01:27,240 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 1: several occasions to make it happen, and uh, and every

1811
02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:36,960
Speaker 1: instance up and down the plains from West Texas to Montana,

1812
02:01:37,560 --> 02:01:41,880
Speaker 1: we've failed so far. And so this attempt by the

1813
02:01:41,920 --> 02:01:47,680
Speaker 1: American Prayer Reserve is probably the most promising attempt that

1814
02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:51,840
Speaker 1: we've had in a long time, and it's taking the

1815
02:01:51,840 --> 02:01:55,880
Speaker 1: the possibility on in a whole new way by doing

1816
02:01:55,920 --> 02:02:00,880
Speaker 1: this kind of private enterprise buying up ranches when they

1817
02:02:00,920 --> 02:02:05,040
Speaker 1: come up for sale, with the idea of ultimately cooperating

1818
02:02:05,400 --> 02:02:07,560
Speaker 1: with the managers of the federal lands that are in

1819
02:02:07,600 --> 02:02:13,120
Speaker 1: the vicinity along the Missouri River and somehow managing this

1820
02:02:13,320 --> 02:02:17,800
Speaker 1: as a whole in order to reintroduce all these classic

1821
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:22,560
Speaker 1: animals that we sort of thoughtlessly, heedlessly a century Ago

1822
02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:27,440
Speaker 1: obliterated from the landscape. I mean, we did it almost

1823
02:02:27,680 --> 02:02:31,360
Speaker 1: without a second thought a hundred years ago, and now

1824
02:02:31,440 --> 02:02:35,880
Speaker 1: we're rethinking what we did and hoping that we can

1825
02:02:36,280 --> 02:02:39,840
Speaker 1: somehow restore this. And so, as I said to me

1826
02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:44,640
Speaker 1: and those of us who are conservation thinking kind of people,

1827
02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:47,040
Speaker 1: this is one of the most exciting things that's happening

1828
02:02:47,040 --> 02:02:50,840
Speaker 1: in the West these days. You know, uh, when you

1829
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:53,760
Speaker 1: talk about doing without thinking about it. I recently had

1830
02:02:53,800 --> 02:02:57,640
Speaker 1: occasion to speak with the with the conservation leader Jim Pozits,

1831
02:02:57,680 --> 02:03:01,360
Speaker 1: and he spells out that time of us realizing what

1832
02:03:01,400 --> 02:03:05,560
Speaker 1: we were doing through the story of Theodore Roosevelt, the

1833
02:03:05,640 --> 02:03:09,000
Speaker 1: first buffalo he killed and the second buffalo he killed,

1834
02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:14,840
Speaker 1: and sort of how he how he interpreted those two actions,

1835
02:03:14,920 --> 02:03:19,440
Speaker 1: one being near is it Medina Madora, Madora, North Dakota,

1836
02:03:19,480 --> 02:03:23,080
Speaker 1: and one around Henry's Lake. Um. The second time and

1837
02:03:23,200 --> 02:03:26,760
Speaker 1: sort of the first one he does award dance around,

1838
02:03:26,880 --> 02:03:30,400
Speaker 1: dance surrounded right, and the second one um, and by

1839
02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:33,839
Speaker 1: this time there are like none left. And the second

1840
02:03:33,840 --> 02:03:40,680
Speaker 1: trip he has a conservation epiphany. UM. And that's one

1841
02:03:40,720 --> 02:03:43,520
Speaker 1: of the many things that makes that guy's life interesting

1842
02:03:43,560 --> 02:03:46,240
Speaker 1: that ties into things we're talking about is being this

1843
02:03:46,440 --> 02:03:49,360
Speaker 1: trans like one of these guys who was alive at

1844
02:03:49,400 --> 02:03:53,960
Speaker 1: this like very transitional moment where he was in some

1845
02:03:54,080 --> 02:03:58,240
Speaker 1: ways engaged with the end or kind of aware of

1846
02:03:58,280 --> 02:04:02,880
Speaker 1: the end, and then was one of the people who said, like, whoa,

1847
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:07,680
Speaker 1: at just the right moment, I mean, just the right moment. Yeah,

1848
02:04:07,680 --> 02:04:10,320
Speaker 1: And it became the seed when he became president for

1849
02:04:10,440 --> 02:04:14,760
Speaker 1: those National Bison Refuges that he set up, and the

1850
02:04:14,840 --> 02:04:18,160
Speaker 1: first one in southwestern Oklahoma, the Witch of Toam Mountain Ones,

1851
02:04:18,200 --> 02:04:21,240
Speaker 1: and then the next one in when they did that one,

1852
02:04:21,880 --> 02:04:27,320
Speaker 1: they were trucking animals from the Bronx Zoo. That's how

1853
02:04:27,400 --> 02:04:29,360
Speaker 1: bad things got. When they were trying to set up

1854
02:04:29,400 --> 02:04:33,640
Speaker 1: some buffalo parks in the West, they were they were

1855
02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:36,680
Speaker 1: getting animals from the Bronx Zoo and shipping them by

1856
02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:40,800
Speaker 1: rail back out west. Well, William T. Hornaday, who was

1857
02:04:40,880 --> 02:04:43,960
Speaker 1: the director of the Bronx Zoo, had had the foresight,

1858
02:04:44,000 --> 02:04:45,960
Speaker 1: I mean, he had written the first great book about

1859
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:51,320
Speaker 1: what had happened to bison extermination oftermination of the American bison. Yeah,

1860
02:04:51,920 --> 02:04:56,200
Speaker 1: and he had had the foresight to start through people

1861
02:04:56,200 --> 02:04:59,920
Speaker 1: like Buffalo Jones and Kansas Charles. Buffalo Jones who had

1862
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:04,040
Speaker 1: and a former buffalo hunter, and then was stricken by

1863
02:05:04,160 --> 02:05:08,040
Speaker 1: guilt and said, as a result of my wickedness and

1864
02:05:08,200 --> 02:05:10,600
Speaker 1: killing so many, now I'm going to try to do

1865
02:05:10,640 --> 02:05:13,400
Speaker 1: everything I can to save the last few that are there.

1866
02:05:13,680 --> 02:05:15,840
Speaker 1: Not roped him and fed him on cow's milk. He

1867
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:19,840
Speaker 1: did and provided Hornaday with some of these animals that

1868
02:05:19,880 --> 02:05:22,160
Speaker 1: went to the Bronx Zoo. So one of the reasons,

1869
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:24,960
Speaker 1: as you know well and have written about, they were

1870
02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:27,240
Speaker 1: trading them around, of course, is they were trying to

1871
02:05:27,280 --> 02:05:30,440
Speaker 1: make sure, I mean, the the animal population of bison

1872
02:05:30,480 --> 02:05:33,240
Speaker 1: had had gotten so small that they were afraid of

1873
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:37,080
Speaker 1: genetic bottlenecking, and so they were trying to spread the

1874
02:05:37,200 --> 02:05:40,960
Speaker 1: few animals that they had left widely to get as

1875
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:46,280
Speaker 1: dispersed a number of genes from the original population. In

1876
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:49,600
Speaker 1: these particular little groups of animals they were trying to

1877
02:05:49,640 --> 02:05:52,160
Speaker 1: build herds up from. There was a there was a

1878
02:05:52,240 --> 02:05:55,400
Speaker 1: hunter during the big slaughter in the southern plains. There

1879
02:05:55,440 --> 02:05:57,800
Speaker 1: was a hunter that was who grew sickened to buy

1880
02:05:57,800 --> 02:06:00,880
Speaker 1: it like what buffalo Jones later clan grew sickened by

1881
02:06:00,880 --> 02:06:03,880
Speaker 1: it and swore to call it off. But then in

1882
02:06:03,920 --> 02:06:07,680
Speaker 1: the morning he explained how he was hearing all the gunfire.

1883
02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:09,760
Speaker 1: It was like, funk, man, they're doing it. They're gonna

1884
02:06:09,800 --> 02:06:13,960
Speaker 1: do it whether I'm there or not, and jump back in. Yeh.

1885
02:06:14,840 --> 02:06:18,040
Speaker 1: Not too many of those buffalo hunters ever seemed to

1886
02:06:18,080 --> 02:06:21,520
Speaker 1: express much remorse, you know, and some of them actually

1887
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:25,360
Speaker 1: became pretty combative about what they had done, you know.

1888
02:06:25,480 --> 02:06:28,240
Speaker 1: That's the interesting thing is like when Hornaday was out

1889
02:06:28,520 --> 02:06:31,120
Speaker 1: trying to get someone, he was trying to collect specimens.

1890
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:32,840
Speaker 1: So at first he was trying to collect dead ones.

1891
02:06:33,120 --> 02:06:36,200
Speaker 1: And he he took the Northern Pacific I just recently

1892
02:06:36,240 --> 02:06:39,520
Speaker 1: made its way to Miles City, Montana, and Hornday took

1893
02:06:39,520 --> 02:06:42,680
Speaker 1: it out and then struck off with a wagon and

1894
02:06:42,720 --> 02:06:45,320
Speaker 1: cart and a guide he was traveling with, and they

1895
02:06:45,360 --> 02:06:48,320
Speaker 1: went up into the Pumpkin Creek area to see if

1896
02:06:48,360 --> 02:06:52,120
Speaker 1: he could shoot a handful as zoo specimens. And he's

1897
02:06:52,360 --> 02:06:56,920
Speaker 1: riding through the bone fields trying to find one. And

1898
02:06:57,000 --> 02:07:00,280
Speaker 1: in his book he points out that there was still eyes,

1899
02:07:00,320 --> 02:07:04,520
Speaker 1: there were still hide hunters in Miles City convinced, and

1900
02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:06,320
Speaker 1: that was like, that was I should put out. That

1901
02:07:06,320 --> 02:07:10,520
Speaker 1: was the last of them, That was the last big congregation,

1902
02:07:10,600 --> 02:07:13,760
Speaker 1: and I think it was killed. They started killing it

1903
02:07:13,960 --> 02:07:19,200
Speaker 1: in the Winner. The summer of eighty two, I think

1904
02:07:19,200 --> 02:07:22,720
Speaker 1: a bunch were killed on one of the reservations. Some

1905
02:07:22,840 --> 02:07:25,680
Speaker 1: of the Sioux got there where they gave them some

1906
02:07:25,720 --> 02:07:28,280
Speaker 1: of their guns back and let him leave the reservation

1907
02:07:28,320 --> 02:07:30,080
Speaker 1: to go on one last hunt, and they killed a

1908
02:07:30,160 --> 02:07:33,400
Speaker 1: thousand and then that was it to the point where

1909
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:36,520
Speaker 1: Horny was out scrounging around hoping to find a couple.

1910
02:07:37,320 --> 02:07:40,400
Speaker 1: He points out that many of the people in Miles

1911
02:07:40,400 --> 02:07:45,360
Speaker 1: City were hide hunters who just were waiting for the

1912
02:07:45,440 --> 02:07:50,080
Speaker 1: next big push to come down out of Canada. Yeah,

1913
02:07:50,160 --> 02:07:53,320
Speaker 1: well some of them. And they had seen I heard

1914
02:07:53,600 --> 02:07:58,160
Speaker 1: cross the medicine line into Canada, and they were convinced

1915
02:07:58,200 --> 02:08:02,480
Speaker 1: that that herd was coming back soon. And I think,

1916
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:06,560
Speaker 1: as harned, he says, he already knew when they were

1917
02:08:06,560 --> 02:08:08,800
Speaker 1: telling him that what had happened to that hurt because

1918
02:08:08,880 --> 02:08:12,160
Speaker 1: the mate had wiped out, that had gotten onto it. Yeah,

1919
02:08:12,160 --> 02:08:14,960
Speaker 1: they were that herd was already gone. But these hunters,

1920
02:08:16,040 --> 02:08:18,880
Speaker 1: I mean, and he he met one guy sitting around

1921
02:08:18,880 --> 02:08:23,320
Speaker 1: a campfire one night, Doc something or other who wandered

1922
02:08:23,360 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 1: into his campfire and sat down, And this guy was

1923
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:28,600
Speaker 1: firmly convinced that all he had to do was sit

1924
02:08:28,680 --> 02:08:31,160
Speaker 1: around and wait for a few weeks or a few

1925
02:08:31,160 --> 02:08:33,560
Speaker 1: months or maybe the next year, and there was a

1926
02:08:33,640 --> 02:08:35,920
Speaker 1: gigantic herd or bison that was gonna come down from

1927
02:08:35,920 --> 02:08:40,240
Speaker 1: Canada and it would all resume. And instead, as he explains,

1928
02:08:40,320 --> 02:08:46,040
Speaker 1: these guys kind of fell into shopkeepers ranchers and they

1929
02:08:46,040 --> 02:08:50,160
Speaker 1: had to retrain. Eventually they never did come back. Well,

1930
02:08:50,200 --> 02:08:52,280
Speaker 1: when they did come back, they came from the east

1931
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:56,520
Speaker 1: by rail. That's right. Yeah, Yeah, all those guys had

1932
02:08:56,520 --> 02:08:59,680
Speaker 1: to retrain. And so this is yet another one of

1933
02:08:59,720 --> 02:09:04,560
Speaker 1: those says in American history where the resources finally gone

1934
02:09:04,880 --> 02:09:08,360
Speaker 1: and you just have you have to face it. You

1935
02:09:08,440 --> 02:09:11,240
Speaker 1: gotta retrain and do something else. Yeah, there's another one

1936
02:09:11,320 --> 02:09:14,880
Speaker 1: you might know about. To another little remnant herd is

1937
02:09:15,240 --> 02:09:18,000
Speaker 1: the story from the story of the guys Sam walking Kyo.

1938
02:09:18,920 --> 02:09:24,120
Speaker 1: Sam walking coyote perhaps had gone, had gotten in a

1939
02:09:24,160 --> 02:09:26,320
Speaker 1: fight with his wife or divorced from his wife, and

1940
02:09:26,360 --> 02:09:31,880
Speaker 1: gone out to the Milk River and hunted and somehow

1941
02:09:32,080 --> 02:09:35,720
Speaker 1: came back home with a couple calves. Calves that followed him,

1942
02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:39,040
Speaker 1: and that became the source animals for what is still

1943
02:09:39,120 --> 02:09:43,520
Speaker 1: the National Bison Refuge for National Bises at the reserve refuge.

1944
02:09:44,680 --> 02:09:47,720
Speaker 1: It's uh, I think it's properly a refuge, just they're

1945
02:09:47,800 --> 02:09:50,440
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be administered by the Fishing Wildlife Service

1946
02:09:50,480 --> 02:09:54,480
Speaker 1: as a National wildlife refuge. And that so that became

1947
02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:59,480
Speaker 1: sam walking coyotes, animals from the milk became that source herd.

1948
02:10:00,040 --> 02:10:05,000
Speaker 1: Then later that heard in the Flathead Valley became the

1949
02:10:05,080 --> 02:10:13,000
Speaker 1: source herd for the original Alaska introductions, not reintroductions, but

1950
02:10:13,160 --> 02:10:18,880
Speaker 1: introductions as those animals spun off and the Canadian herds too, right,

1951
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:21,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the Canadian government ended up buying

1952
02:10:21,560 --> 02:10:26,200
Speaker 1: that for that wild herd, and that and that was

1953
02:10:26,240 --> 02:10:28,440
Speaker 1: the I can't remember the name of that what that

1954
02:10:28,600 --> 02:10:30,760
Speaker 1: what that herd when that sprang off with that herd

1955
02:10:30,800 --> 02:10:35,280
Speaker 1: became all right, So check out dance books. You learn

1956
02:10:35,280 --> 02:10:39,200
Speaker 1: about all kinds of stuff. Um and uh and and

1957
02:10:39,200 --> 02:10:43,920
Speaker 1: and dan was hugely influential and and um fostering my

1958
02:10:44,040 --> 02:10:48,760
Speaker 1: interest in these subjects. Uh. Yeah, you haven't said ship

1959
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:52,280
Speaker 1: are you building? Are you like built up with like

1960
02:10:52,440 --> 02:10:55,120
Speaker 1: bent up thoughts? Had those nice thoughts when we took

1961
02:10:55,160 --> 02:10:59,040
Speaker 1: our teat break there earlier, But um, which were that

1962
02:10:59,680 --> 02:11:04,000
Speaker 1: dan us talking about the the trade goods? You know

1963
02:11:04,200 --> 02:11:08,600
Speaker 1: that the market brought across the Atlantic and we're just

1964
02:11:08,640 --> 02:11:12,360
Speaker 1: down in Guyana, and how the parallels were so similar,

1965
02:11:12,920 --> 02:11:17,440
Speaker 1: Like they're still using their native bows, arrows. They like

1966
02:11:17,960 --> 02:11:21,200
Speaker 1: making a lot of that stuff, and they're they're big

1967
02:11:21,240 --> 02:11:24,640
Speaker 1: on um, like they know the importance I think now

1968
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:28,160
Speaker 1: of sort of keeping that culture around because people like

1969
02:11:28,280 --> 02:11:30,720
Speaker 1: us are interested in that, you know, and there's value

1970
02:11:30,720 --> 02:11:33,200
Speaker 1: to that. But the one thing that has changed is

1971
02:11:33,240 --> 02:11:37,600
Speaker 1: like the metal, right, like they like files and machetes,

1972
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:39,800
Speaker 1: and when the machete wears out, they turned that into

1973
02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:44,160
Speaker 1: ah an arrow point. I think you were saying right,

1974
02:11:44,200 --> 02:11:47,480
Speaker 1: you talked to Roving about how he made Did he

1975
02:11:47,520 --> 02:11:49,240
Speaker 1: ever learn how to make the points? I don't know.

1976
02:11:49,360 --> 02:11:54,640
Speaker 1: He remembers people using um where their bow and arrow

1977
02:11:54,720 --> 02:11:59,360
Speaker 1: gear was all native material. Now the only non native

1978
02:11:59,360 --> 02:12:04,920
Speaker 1: material is tip, which is steel. But he remembers the

1979
02:12:04,960 --> 02:12:10,400
Speaker 1: people using the basically a point made from cut from bamboo,

1980
02:12:10,480 --> 02:12:13,280
Speaker 1: and we saw those in Bolivia, those bamboo tips. So

1981
02:12:13,320 --> 02:12:18,360
Speaker 1: in one generation, that entire progression he's experienced. Yeah, we'll

1982
02:12:18,400 --> 02:12:20,240
Speaker 1: check this out. So I was there five or six

1983
02:12:20,320 --> 02:12:23,440
Speaker 1: years ago, and they do they hunt for fish with bows.

1984
02:12:23,920 --> 02:12:26,040
Speaker 1: It's one of the main ways they fish is bow fishing.

1985
02:12:26,560 --> 02:12:28,400
Speaker 1: I was down there five or six years ago, trying

1986
02:12:28,400 --> 02:12:32,160
Speaker 1: to sell them on polarized sunglasses. Okay, not ever already

1987
02:12:32,200 --> 02:12:33,760
Speaker 1: put them on, but check this ship out and put

1988
02:12:33,800 --> 02:12:37,640
Speaker 1: these you can see those fish well there didn't like

1989
02:12:37,840 --> 02:12:44,640
Speaker 1: the field, okay. And also shoes didn't want shoes five

1990
02:12:44,760 --> 02:12:47,200
Speaker 1: or six later, five or six years later. I'm not

1991
02:12:47,360 --> 02:12:51,680
Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not even kind of joking. Everybody polarized

1992
02:12:51,720 --> 02:12:54,520
Speaker 1: sunglasses all day long, and and inn five or six

1993
02:12:54,600 --> 02:13:00,880
Speaker 1: years shoes, so you sing replicate me and many other

1994
02:13:00,920 --> 02:13:04,080
Speaker 1: people and many other people liking But it was just

1995
02:13:04,200 --> 02:13:06,160
Speaker 1: like it was. They were, you know what it is,

1996
02:13:06,240 --> 02:13:08,440
Speaker 1: and and the honest brought us up earlier it was

1997
02:13:08,880 --> 02:13:15,680
Speaker 1: ego tourism. We're just a constant, steady exposure to well

1998
02:13:15,760 --> 02:13:21,360
Speaker 1: healed outsiders who are coming down, and a lot of

1999
02:13:21,400 --> 02:13:25,520
Speaker 1: them like because it was still cutting edge location. A

2000
02:13:25,560 --> 02:13:30,120
Speaker 1: lot of them industry folks, okay, who come down with

2001
02:13:30,200 --> 02:13:34,840
Speaker 1: tons of ship and and just like, hey man, I

2002
02:13:34,840 --> 02:13:37,240
Speaker 1: brought a bunch of sunglasses done when I got back.

2003
02:13:37,560 --> 02:13:39,600
Speaker 1: When I went down the first time, the first thing

2004
02:13:39,640 --> 02:13:41,280
Speaker 1: I did when I got home was sent down. I'm

2005
02:13:41,280 --> 02:13:45,400
Speaker 1: not kidding. I sent down a shipload of files because

2006
02:13:46,600 --> 02:13:48,320
Speaker 1: they were talking about what a bitch it was to

2007
02:13:48,360 --> 02:13:51,600
Speaker 1: get a file, and that's how they made their fish

2008
02:13:51,640 --> 02:13:54,880
Speaker 1: points and ship and files were the dope, right, But

2009
02:13:54,920 --> 02:13:59,360
Speaker 1: it was very expensive to get a file and hard

2010
02:13:59,400 --> 02:14:03,200
Speaker 1: to find a file, and I sent down files. Now,

2011
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:07,840
Speaker 1: I also point out that um, my main friend on there,

2012
02:14:07,840 --> 02:14:11,400
Speaker 1: he has an email address, so it's all very confused

2013
02:14:12,040 --> 02:14:17,240
Speaker 1: where he has an email address but makes his own

2014
02:14:17,400 --> 02:14:20,640
Speaker 1: bows and arrows from native jungle material. And if he

2015
02:14:20,680 --> 02:14:24,080
Speaker 1: wants to catch a fish, he goes to a to

2016
02:14:24,240 --> 02:14:28,560
Speaker 1: a palm and finds the fruit on the ground and

2017
02:14:28,600 --> 02:14:32,480
Speaker 1: cuts the fruit out open and pulls out a larva

2018
02:14:33,400 --> 02:14:35,920
Speaker 1: and takes the larva and puts it on a hook

2019
02:14:36,360 --> 02:14:39,040
Speaker 1: and catches the fish and uses that fish to catch

2020
02:14:39,080 --> 02:14:43,400
Speaker 1: another fish, and that fish catches the big fish that

2021
02:14:43,520 --> 02:14:48,120
Speaker 1: he eats, and he hunts and fishes. He hunts, fishes

2022
02:14:48,160 --> 02:14:54,080
Speaker 1: and farms year round except for on occasion when dudes

2023
02:14:54,120 --> 02:14:57,000
Speaker 1: like us go down and want to go out and

2024
02:14:57,000 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 1: see how they do ship, and them taking guys like

2025
02:15:01,400 --> 02:15:05,080
Speaker 1: me out to show how they do ship corrupts how

2026
02:15:05,080 --> 02:15:09,280
Speaker 1: they do ship absolutely or from their perspective, it doesn't

2027
02:15:09,320 --> 02:15:11,360
Speaker 1: krupt at all. It's just great stuff to know. It's

2028
02:15:11,600 --> 02:15:13,800
Speaker 1: the same way if someone came to me and they're like, hey, man,

2029
02:15:14,320 --> 02:15:17,440
Speaker 1: um uh, you know you guys wash your dishes by

2030
02:15:17,440 --> 02:15:21,600
Speaker 1: hand every night. Why not when you buy a new house,

2031
02:15:21,640 --> 02:15:24,720
Speaker 1: fit that sun bitch out with a dishwasher. And I'm like, hey,

2032
02:15:24,760 --> 02:15:28,480
Speaker 1: that's a great idea. These dishwashers are sweet. So from like,

2033
02:15:29,400 --> 02:15:32,440
Speaker 1: it's like a kind of colonialism, not colonialism, but it's

2034
02:15:32,440 --> 02:15:34,760
Speaker 1: like a colonial perspective to sort of be like, I

2035
02:15:34,840 --> 02:15:38,960
Speaker 1: hold the power to decide that you will or will

2036
02:15:38,960 --> 02:15:44,720
Speaker 1: not be exposed to these new materials. In fact, they're

2037
02:15:44,720 --> 02:15:46,680
Speaker 1: down there like, hey, you know, it turns out I

2038
02:15:46,720 --> 02:15:49,160
Speaker 1: got these polarized sunglasses in They're great because I can

2039
02:15:49,200 --> 02:15:53,560
Speaker 1: see fish and shoot them better the innocent It's it's

2040
02:15:54,400 --> 02:15:57,400
Speaker 1: what it is I think is I would just say

2041
02:15:57,440 --> 02:16:01,840
Speaker 1: two things. I think what you're just driving is a

2042
02:16:02,040 --> 02:16:06,800
Speaker 1: perfect description of probably what happened in the eighteenth and

2043
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:10,400
Speaker 1: nineteenth centuries when Europeans went around the world and contacted

2044
02:16:10,440 --> 02:16:13,600
Speaker 1: indigenous peoples in the way we were talking about with

2045
02:16:14,240 --> 02:16:17,800
Speaker 1: how the market transformed the buffalo hunt, uh in the

2046
02:16:17,840 --> 02:16:21,880
Speaker 1: eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. I think this is just a

2047
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:25,640
Speaker 1: kind of a microcosm description of it. And the other

2048
02:16:25,680 --> 02:16:28,200
Speaker 1: thing I think I would say is that you know,

2049
02:16:29,000 --> 02:16:33,520
Speaker 1: we're all in the same boat because technology is proceeding

2050
02:16:34,120 --> 02:16:39,400
Speaker 1: so rapidly all around us that we're all getting introduced,

2051
02:16:39,920 --> 02:16:42,640
Speaker 1: not on a daily basis, necessarily, but maybe on a

2052
02:16:42,720 --> 02:16:48,720
Speaker 1: monthly basis to new technologies that we can either accept

2053
02:16:48,920 --> 02:16:52,200
Speaker 1: or reject. But if we reject them, a lot of

2054
02:16:52,200 --> 02:16:56,520
Speaker 1: times we end up kind of disadvantaging ourselves because compared

2055
02:16:56,600 --> 02:17:00,000
Speaker 1: to everybody, Yeah, it shifts without you and it leaves

2056
02:17:00,080 --> 02:17:03,359
Speaker 1: you behind. And so I think the truth is we're

2057
02:17:03,400 --> 02:17:10,039
Speaker 1: all in this same boat. The world is going at

2058
02:17:10,160 --> 02:17:16,520
Speaker 1: hyper speed. Technology can easily leave somebody behind in their

2059
02:17:16,600 --> 02:17:19,520
Speaker 1: lifetime or either maybe in a decade or in a

2060
02:17:19,560 --> 02:17:23,959
Speaker 1: couple of years. And so we're finding ourselves sort of

2061
02:17:24,120 --> 02:17:27,840
Speaker 1: living that same experience that you've just been describing then

2062
02:17:27,879 --> 02:17:32,640
Speaker 1: and that I was describing earlier from centuries ago. Um,

2063
02:17:32,879 --> 02:17:37,560
Speaker 1: and it's happening all around us. Yeah, I think I

2064
02:17:37,640 --> 02:17:42,120
Speaker 1: hijacked your concluding thought. No, you never do that, what

2065
02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:48,480
Speaker 1: are you talking about? No? Uh, yeah, it is like

2066
02:17:48,560 --> 02:17:51,440
Speaker 1: it's a perfect paralleox. And now, instead of like other

2067
02:17:52,200 --> 02:17:54,879
Speaker 1: the other tribes saying no, I don't want the tools

2068
02:17:56,000 --> 02:17:59,039
Speaker 1: or the metal, you know the machetes. They're sort of

2069
02:17:59,040 --> 02:18:03,440
Speaker 1: like Romans groups like very much adopted the eco tourism

2070
02:18:03,480 --> 02:18:07,680
Speaker 1: and that's giving them wealth and like helping his village prosper.

2071
02:18:08,160 --> 02:18:11,120
Speaker 1: It's like the school there, I mean it took us

2072
02:18:11,640 --> 02:18:13,680
Speaker 1: actually didn't take that long to get there. We got

2073
02:18:13,720 --> 02:18:16,120
Speaker 1: there from New York in twenty four hours to the

2074
02:18:16,200 --> 02:18:20,040
Speaker 1: village itself, um, and that included a couple of hour

2075
02:18:20,080 --> 02:18:22,720
Speaker 1: boat ride, you know. But inside the village, when you

2076
02:18:22,760 --> 02:18:25,440
Speaker 1: go by the school, the school, it's like you look

2077
02:18:25,440 --> 02:18:28,000
Speaker 1: in the window and you're like, oh, well, it looks

2078
02:18:28,000 --> 02:18:30,960
Speaker 1: like every other school I've seen recently, you know, kids

2079
02:18:31,040 --> 02:18:35,120
Speaker 1: just well and they were in uniform and uh, you know,

2080
02:18:35,240 --> 02:18:39,760
Speaker 1: half high high teacher to pupil ratio. But he was

2081
02:18:39,760 --> 02:18:42,080
Speaker 1: telling us that the other you know, camps along the

2082
02:18:42,200 --> 02:18:44,560
Speaker 1: river hadn't really got gotten into that yet. And it's

2083
02:18:44,600 --> 02:18:50,760
Speaker 1: created some jealousy, you know, their village is actually growing. Yeah,

2084
02:18:50,840 --> 02:18:57,119
Speaker 1: well not just jealousy, but even inspired a a curse

2085
02:18:57,200 --> 02:19:03,600
Speaker 1: from a nearby shaman. Yeah. Well, I think, uh, you know,

2086
02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:09,959
Speaker 1: it's it's happening at differential rates for everybody, but I

2087
02:19:10,000 --> 02:19:12,920
Speaker 1: think we're all kind of caught in it. And maybe

2088
02:19:12,920 --> 02:19:18,280
Speaker 1: it's useful to see indigenous people's confronting it because that

2089
02:19:18,440 --> 02:19:21,039
Speaker 1: kind of is a mirror back on how all the

2090
02:19:21,080 --> 02:19:24,959
Speaker 1: rest office are having to grapple with the speed of

2091
02:19:25,040 --> 02:19:32,320
Speaker 1: technological change. My handful of experiences down there has um

2092
02:19:32,640 --> 02:19:39,320
Speaker 1: change in a remarkable way. How I view parts of

2093
02:19:39,360 --> 02:19:43,640
Speaker 1: our portions of our own nation's history that I'm interested in.

2094
02:19:47,000 --> 02:19:49,800
Speaker 1: All the parallels. Someone could very easily come in and

2095
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:54,959
Speaker 1: point out that there that they're false comparisons, false analogies.

2096
02:19:55,480 --> 02:20:01,560
Speaker 1: But um uh, because it's not perfect, the timelines aren't perfect.

2097
02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:09,640
Speaker 1: But it's just fascinating, particularly the evolving relationships of people

2098
02:20:09,760 --> 02:20:16,160
Speaker 1: and animals and the market influence and to see people

2099
02:20:17,000 --> 02:20:20,960
Speaker 1: um going through a very speedy version of what we

2100
02:20:21,000 --> 02:20:26,800
Speaker 1: went through of within a single generation being engaged and

2101
02:20:27,000 --> 02:20:32,439
Speaker 1: being introduced to market hunting, engaging in market hunting, realizing

2102
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:35,640
Speaker 1: where market hunting is going, and looking for a sustainable

2103
02:20:35,680 --> 02:20:38,360
Speaker 1: model to have that play out in a person's lifetime.

2104
02:20:40,560 --> 02:20:45,240
Speaker 1: You're seeing like like in some way, you're seeing a

2105
02:20:45,360 --> 02:20:48,680
Speaker 1: hundred years of American history can pressed down really tightly

2106
02:20:49,040 --> 02:20:51,720
Speaker 1: in part because of the technology you're talking about, where

2107
02:20:51,800 --> 02:20:57,000
Speaker 1: ideas can cycle in so quickly. Yeah, it's both ideas

2108
02:20:57,280 --> 02:21:01,120
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the goods, the technical, logical, uh

2109
02:21:01,360 --> 02:21:04,480
Speaker 1: possibilities all at the same time. And I think you're

2110
02:21:04,480 --> 02:21:07,320
Speaker 1: exactly right. We're seeing it in a sort of a

2111
02:21:07,400 --> 02:21:14,039
Speaker 1: hyper drive microcosm, replicating the last five years of world

2112
02:21:14,200 --> 02:21:19,080
Speaker 1: history but happening in the space of a few years. Yeah.

2113
02:21:21,080 --> 02:21:23,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's good or bad. Any other

2114
02:21:23,720 --> 02:21:30,280
Speaker 1: final things. Yeah, that's intense. That's my final thought. Dan,

2115
02:21:30,480 --> 02:21:33,800
Speaker 1: anything you'd like to add, Thanks for having me on

2116
02:21:33,879 --> 02:21:37,440
Speaker 1: and say thanks for coming. Thanks to both you guys

2117
02:21:37,600 --> 02:21:40,560
Speaker 1: for being here. This makes it easy to do a

2118
02:21:40,560 --> 02:21:44,879
Speaker 1: podcast when we're sitting here on my couch. Yeah. Again,

2119
02:21:44,879 --> 02:21:46,640
Speaker 1: I want to thank you, and I really want to

2120
02:21:46,680 --> 02:21:49,400
Speaker 1: implore I really hope people do go check out your books,

2121
02:21:49,840 --> 02:21:53,280
Speaker 1: especially if if you've always you know, if you tend

2122
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:56,440
Speaker 1: to only and I'm guilting this too, if you tend

2123
02:21:56,480 --> 02:21:59,360
Speaker 1: to only view a wild life from the perspective of

2124
02:22:00,800 --> 02:22:03,560
Speaker 1: hunting right and through that kind of media, I think

2125
02:22:03,560 --> 02:22:08,360
Speaker 1: it's helpful to to to step into um a historian

2126
02:22:08,440 --> 02:22:12,080
Speaker 1: like a trained historian shoes and look at wildlife a

2127
02:22:12,080 --> 02:22:15,360
Speaker 1: little bit because it, uh, it adds a layer to

2128
02:22:15,480 --> 02:22:18,160
Speaker 1: it that you don't get in the kind of normal

2129
02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:23,320
Speaker 1: conversations about wildlife and wildlife management that we engage in UM,

2130
02:22:23,640 --> 02:22:26,039
Speaker 1: where we're talking about like what we're doing now, what's

2131
02:22:26,040 --> 02:22:30,840
Speaker 1: going on now, threats at wildlife habitat now to step

2132
02:22:30,840 --> 02:22:35,160
Speaker 1: back and go like, oh, so that's the that's how

2133
02:22:35,200 --> 02:22:38,080
Speaker 1: we arrived at where we're at. Those are the things

2134
02:22:38,120 --> 02:22:42,360
Speaker 1: that shaped our understandings, the mistakes we've made, the successes

2135
02:22:42,480 --> 02:22:45,640
Speaker 1: we've had. UM. I think it's really enlightening. So yeah,

2136
02:22:45,680 --> 02:22:49,680
Speaker 1: hopefully you go check out Dan's uh not just his

2137
02:22:50,280 --> 02:22:52,640
Speaker 1: not just his books, but if you want to dig

2138
02:22:52,720 --> 02:22:54,880
Speaker 1: into the deep web, you'll find some of your academic

2139
02:22:54,879 --> 02:22:59,000
Speaker 1: pieces from your your past life as a peer reviewed journal,

2140
02:22:59,240 --> 02:23:03,840
Speaker 1: peer reviewed historian. So again that Dan, thank you very

2141
02:23:03,920 --> 02:23:06,800
Speaker 1: much for joining him. Thank you man and also Man,

2142
02:23:06,879 --> 02:23:10,280
Speaker 1: I just want to remind everyone please UM go and

2143
02:23:10,320 --> 02:23:13,760
Speaker 1: give go and give a big gas five star review.

2144
02:23:14,120 --> 02:23:16,720
Speaker 1: Me need your podcast. Thank you very much,