WEBVTT - Pledging Allegiance to the Guns 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.520 Good morning, Peepsa and welcome to ook F Daily with 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:20.840 Meet your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.840 this week, we experienced yet another mass shooting. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.560 There were almost two dozen. 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:35.479 Victims of a mass shooting incident that took place in Maine. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:37.559 Maine is a place that. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:42.559 Has none of the laws that are in place to 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.680 keep their citizens safe because you know, hunting and apparently 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:52.320 you need an AR fifteen for that. There have been 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:58.320 so many times when I turn on my microphone to 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:03.280 share the news of another mass shooting. I've been doing 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:08.679 this show for so long, and I don't even think 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.720 I could count, honestly, the amount of times that I've 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.679 turned on this MI like to say the same things 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.000 over and over and over and over and over again. 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:28.720 We've become concredibly numb to these targeted acts of domestic terrorism. 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.320 That's what they are. That's not how the media reports it. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:38.720 But my friend jaredy eight Sexon said in an interview 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.800 that you guys will listen to later this week, that's 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.280 what these acts of violence are like. We like to 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:52.080 think about terrorism in the form of bombs, in the 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:57.760 form of you know, people in fatigues and ground fighting. 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.840 We don't talk about the experience and the exposure to 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:11.840 largely a white, male dominated group of people who are 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:16.840 the ones that are picking up AR fifteen's, you know, 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:21.480 the pins that the House Republicans saw fit to switch 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.359 out their American flags for because they pledge their allegiance 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:33.040 to a weapon of mass destruction and violence. That these 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:39.320 acts that happen largely from people who subscribe to right 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:48.720 wing ideology, people who harbor racist, anti Semitic, anti black, 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.120 anti woman, anti LATINX. Just the list goes on and 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.959 on sentiments, those sentiments that are fed to them by 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:03.639 elected politicians. Their former president twice impeached white supremacist leader 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:09.000 Donald Trump, a cadre right two hundred and twenty two 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:14.679 Republicans in the House and all of the Republicans in 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:19.200 the Senate, as well as being backed by multi billionaires 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:25.160 who subscribe to a theory of violence and domination, oppression 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:30.320 and power and greed. And so, I don't know what 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:37.880 else there is to say write about this country. Its 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:44.440 addiction to violence, its desire to ignore its founding and 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:51.120 the repercussions thereof, It's inability to have any type of 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.720 reflection to make any pivots and changes from the way 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.880 that quote unquote things have been done, to do them better, 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:00.080 to do them safer. 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:02.200 There's no desire. 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:08.720 And you know, for years now, I've had the great 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:15.440 pleasure of chatting with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:22.479 who has been and is one of these sounding voices 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:29.040 major voices on gun reform, and in his new book though, 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.960 which will be available and is available right now for 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.400 pre order, so I urge you all to get a 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.719 copy entitled what We've Become Living and Dying in a 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:46.440 Country of Arms, Jonathan recognizes that maybe the way that 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:52.360 gun reform advocates have been tackling this issue, maybe it's 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.120 not working. Maybe we need a pivot, maybe we need 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.960 a shift because there are so many, any more things 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:06.919 at play than what meets the eye. That's what it 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.279 means to be a good leader, to be able to 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.440 look at what you've been doing and see whether or 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.960 not it's been effective, and if it hasn't been effective 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.400 to the extent that you have wanted it to be, 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:27.640 then you have the courage to make a shift. You 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:35.000 have the courage to say, let's try something else. That's 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:41.039 not who America as a collective has ever been the 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:46.480 masculine toxicity that is on display in our patriarchal society 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:55.280 that hates women, the DNA of white supremacy that runs 0:05:55.360 --> 0:06:01.880 through the very soil and bodies of those people who 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:11.279 call themselves Americans, because we refuse as a collective to 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:17.960 address anything and march through life with the hubris and 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.880 the ego that America alone can fix it. America is 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.680 the best. America is number one, and the thing that 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:27.960 we are number one in. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:31.000 Is got deaths. 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:39.440 That's where we stand alone as a country. No one 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:48.440 else has as bloody of an existence as America. Even 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:57.839 right now as we watch war in real time, the 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:02.520 deaths of thousands of fucking children that our own president 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:07.159 doesn't even want to acknowledge why because then he would 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:13.280 have to reckon with his fucking allegiance and the billions 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:21.160 of dollars that have gone to perpetrate genocide. Because to 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:32.640 recognize the lives lost of Palestinians, of Palestinian children, babies, 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.000 would force a change in course and a change in action. 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:47.640 So let's pretend. Let's continue with the lie, and then 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:52.400 when when people don't take in the lie and ingest 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.240 it with their own free will will force it down 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:04.440 their throats. That's where we are. So this conversation that 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.200 I have with Jonathan today talks about the need for pivot, 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:14.360 talks about the need for a shift and why if 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:19.080 we are to progress, we need to be examining our 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:24.400 lives in the world through a place of expansion and 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.720 not narrowness. Coming up next my conversation with our friend, 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:35.560 our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.320 that whenever I have the opportunity to speak with our friend, 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:42.240 our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Mepzil, I am always thrilled, 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:47.960 And this week was so honored to be invited Jonathan, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:52.680 to speak in front of your class at Vanderbilt. I 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.120 want to give you the opportunity to tell folks what 0:08:55.200 --> 0:09:01.080 this particular the topic of this particular class was and 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:02.640 what you were hoping to get out of it. 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:05.760 So it's a new class we're teaching. This is actually 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.000 the first semester and the title of the class is 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:13.440 Guns in America, which is not as straightboard a topic 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.600 as you might think. The kind of argument of the 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.520 class is the way you define guns in America depends 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.120 on the framework that you use to understand what the 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.840 issue is or what the problem is. And so every 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.760 week we're doing roughly a general topic. So we did 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.240 guns and Politics, guns and Medicine, guns in the Law. 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.840 We had one a week of guns and Crime, and 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.000 we had a couple of officers from the Vanderbilt Police 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:47.200 Force come in, and yesterday was Guns and the Media. 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.679 And it was kind of typical of how we've been 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.360 doing this in that if you, you know, if you 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.920 look at guns in the media through for example, mainstream 0:09:56.000 --> 0:10:00.400 corporate media or something like that, you'll the question we 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.440 ask is like when when do guns show up? And 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:08.520 it's very often stories after mass shootings, understandably, and stories 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.080 like the Supreme Court case we're having come up, but 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:16.079 not much else beyond that for understandable reasons. But that's 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.320 kind of what drives those markets. But if you look 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.280 at other forms of media and expression, you do not 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.760 only see that there are other ways of talking about guns, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.800 but that the issues and the voices are really different. 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:32.440 And so guns and podcasts, for example, you can talk 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:37.520 about guns and culture, guns and communities of color. So 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.680 you were amazing and engaging and so present. It was 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.760 just Honestly, I was just like, man, this is wonderful. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:46.520 You're so good because you were on zoom, but it 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.319 was like you were with us in the room there. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.440 It was so nice. So we had you, and then 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.680 we had Dwayne Bray who's from ESPN who actually writes 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:59.280 about It's interesting he's with ESPN, but he writes about 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.560 violence and communities of color, not linked to sports. And 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:08.040 his main argument was we put we like, why are 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.440 we putting this on the backs of athletes like Lebron 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.560 James and Chris Paul and stuff like that when the 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.600 issue is really every day that we lose if it's 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.280 just athletes, and really this is a big, a bigger 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.760 societal issue. And so it was interesting because he was 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.000 rejecting like people said, shouldn't athletes be involved in social 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.720 justice and he said, well yes and no, because if 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.000 it's just them, it's just window dressing. And he also 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.720 said it often is just black athletes that are speaking 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.480 out and when did Tom Brady speak out about it? 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:38.839 And stuff like that. So it was really it was 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:39.600 quite interesting. 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.400 Yeah, I thought that what I thought of his initial 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.640 opening I thought was really good. And it's a question 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.520 I think that we ask often of artists and athletes, 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:56.320 people with really big platforms, you know, to automatically we 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.440 assume that they should be activists. And I think that 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.720 being an activists should be a choice and not just 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:08.400 a part of your profession because you happen to, you know, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.280 have millions of followers. And I think that we've seen 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.280 that happen for better or for worse, when people are 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.920 not informed, right, and they're and they're using their platforms 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.520 and they have and they garner all this attention and 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.720 then those that that are But I think to his point, 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.800 you know, just recently, and I think you and I 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.320 were having this conversation, I might have been having it 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.160 with somebody else, you know. The n h the n 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.800 h L, which is largely all white, majority white players 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:42.400 in the in the Hockey League, recently had passed a 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:47.360 policy that was going to disallow the players from being 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:52.440 able to use the tape for their hockey sticks during 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.360 their practices and the games. To show their allegiance to 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.120 the LGBTQ community. There was going to be like they 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.800 were going to change the policy and disallow them from 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:06.360 using the tape, and several of the NHL players said, yeah, no, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.080 I'll take the fine. And so because of that, they 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:15.000 were just this week reverse that policy and allowed the 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.440 players to do what they've been doing for the last 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.680 ten years and so to show their allegiance and support 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:26.040 to the LGBTQ community. So it is really important conversation 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.440 to have, and I'm glad that you brought that to 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.400 your students, and I was glad that I had the 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.960 opportunity to give my perspective on, you know, on guns 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.040 and the media and how we shift narrative. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.120 And it was I mean, let me just say about that, 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.600 you know, I like what, for example, what's her name, 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.440 Travis Kelsey's girlfriend is doing, which is she's not going 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.480 She's not telling people to make up their minds. She's 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.800 like getting people to register to vote and stuff. So 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.280 tying it into actually real world stuff, I think is 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.240 great because there are a lot of politicians, a lot 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:01.200 of there are a lot of media people. I mean, 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.800 there are a lot of entertainers who like, we probably 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.880 don't want to know what they think, you know, we 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.199 just want to enjoy it. But I like what she 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.760 does too, because it's like register to vote. I'm not 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.600 telling you who to vote for. I'm just saying register 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:14.920 to vote, which I think is really really powerful. But 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.800 you know, you were so good about talking about the 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.680 voices that were left out of mainstream media and the 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:24.880 perspectives of communities of color. I mean, we have a 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:26.400 lot of football players in the class, and they all 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.880 came up and they were like, Oh my god, I'm 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.600 so glad, I'm so glad you said that, because nobody 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:33.920 talks about like what it's like in our neighborhoods and 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.000 stuff like that. That's not a story people ever hear. And 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.600 so so yeah, thank you, thank you. 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:39.240 Yeah. 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.760 Absolutely, It's been an interesting class because people come into 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.160 a class like this thinking and we do a little 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.680 bit of it, teaching them, you know, public health and 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.360 research and all that kind of stuff, but it's really 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.480 more like, how can you talk in a more complicated 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.680 way about something that seems really polarized and obvious. People 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:01.080 think they come to this knowing exactly position, and we 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.040 try to kind of say, look, it's a little more 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:05.760 complicated than that, so let's let's look under the hood 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.320 a little bit. And then and then the last part 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.240 of the classes we have them go out in the 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.560 world and do activism projects. But we have a lot 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.720 of students who own guns, a lot of students to 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.200 carry guns for protection. You know, Tennessee is a place 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:20.360 where there are a lot of guns. So it's not 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.000 inherently a pro or anti gun class. It's really like, 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.320 let's figure out, like what what this. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.800 All means, which is why I thought it was really great, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.800 you know, getting some of the questions and you know 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:36.400 about and the nuance that the media lacks, because my 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.240 assumption was just that that it wasn't just a you know, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.680 a liberal class with no guns and no gun ownership 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.520 that you know, and that that's the beauty, you know, Jonathan, 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.320 of your writing and the analysis that you do in 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.720 the conversations that you have. And so I do want 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.280 to switch gears to talk about what is coming up 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.800 around your newest book, your latest book that won't drop 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:07.640 until January. But you know, you're receiving some pushback from 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:13.320 offering a pivot to a new path, and I think 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.120 that that is I think I want you to share 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:18.880 what's happening. Remind people of the title of the book, 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.280 and are they able to pre order, because if so, folks, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:25.000 you should, but tell us what's happening right now? 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.800 Okay, So my book is called What We've Become, Living 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.880 and Dying in a Country of Arms, and it's a 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:37.320 book about the Nashville waffle House mass shooting and tells 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:42.400 the story of a very powerful, racially charged mass shooting 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.760 that happened here in twenty eighteen. A naked white man 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.560 went into a waffle house that was full of happy, 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:54.720 partying young adults of color and shot killed four people 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.760 and shot five others. And I really followed the case 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.920 from before to during and after. And as I followed 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.960 the case, I realize that the things I've been advocating 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:11.359 for through my whole career, background checks, red flag laws, 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:16.080 assault weapons bands, they're important. But I also become very critical, 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.920 not just because they wouldn't have solved, they wouldn't have 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.520 stopped this crime. But the reason they wouldn't have stopped 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.560 the crime wasn't because of whether or not the policies 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.359 were in effect. It was because the policies that I 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:35.800 advocated for have no bigger theory of race, of political power, 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:37.600 of all these things. And so the argument of the 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:39.240 book I've been wrote it down in advance of what 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:43.000 we were saying. My main argument is that civilian known 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.679 guns cement conservative and racial power. It's not just a 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.800 health issue, it's a political one, and the public health 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.119 frame by itself cannot fully grasp or address that. I 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.200 show the limitations of our approach that's facing public health, 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.440 even though I support it, but I think we need 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.520 broader strategies that are political and racial in nature going forward. 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.040 To be clear, I really support everything I've done, but 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.480 I also think we need to be much more politically 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:14.920 and socially involved. And I just think that in a way, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.560 and I just show I trace the history in a 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.600 way of the gun control movement, which I'm a part of, 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:24.080 but I show how guns are metaphors for cementing power 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:26.840 and if you don't have a theory of power to 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.520 push back on that, like people armed civilians as a 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:35.000 way to maintain racial hierarchies. They maintain they have civilian 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:41.439 guns to make inevitable certain conservative policies, to have power 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:45.119 over the judiciary, over the electorate. So even though I 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.360 think guns are a public health issue, I also think 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.600 that just calling it a public health issue, that frame 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.399 I show historically was too small in a way. What 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:56.960 I show is the story of the Nashville shooting was 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.720 a story about whiteness and about gun power in the South, 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.480 and about how the policies that would have stopped the 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.960 shooting were never going to happen because of the hold 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:11.400 that the NRA had on the courts. And so it's 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.920 a story about judges, it's a story about race, it's 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.919 a story about who codes as a as a criminal 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.639 and who codes as a patriot and all these things. 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.440 And so I'm getting a lot of pushback because I'm 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.639 now being called just in early reads a sellout to 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.560 liberalism in a way, because I'm not like there's you know, 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:34.680 and I understand right, I'm part of the movement too. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.480 I think calling guns a public health issue is certainly important. 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:43.600 But what I argue is that doctors and public health 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.040 by themselves don't have the expertise for how do you 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:51.480 change society, which has to do with understanding judges and 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.480 power and all these other factors. 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:58.520 One of the things that I, you know, when you 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.679 brought this up up when I was speaking with the class, like, 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.439 I was kind of shocked at the fact that you 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.920 are receiving pushback from recognizing that. 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:11.399 A pivot needs to be made. 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:16.520 It's as if the movement leaders are just like, let's 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.119 keep banging our heads against the wall doing the same 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.520 thing and not getting any new results. 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:24.760 And that's the definition of insanity. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:29.119 And so I'm like, you know, it doesn't to me, 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.280 and you you know, answer this question. 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:32.000 It doesn't to me. 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:37.359 Sound like you're saying let's abandon this where we've been. 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.359 It's saying we need a both. And the issue is 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:46.080 bigger than just saying that guns are a public health issue. 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.560 There are so many other factors that are contributing to 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.480 this larger epidemic of gun violence, and so how do 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:56.639 how do we tackle that? 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:57.440 Right? 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.920 Like, is it to me? Are you offering a both? 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.919 And and why is that scene as problematic? 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.119 Well, after the book comes out, I will be I 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.760 will talk in detail about some of the pushback I've 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:16.600 been getting. And I understand like we've built a new 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.199 I mean, the gun control movement i'll call it, that 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:24.280 is two decades old, and people feel really invested. But 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.600 there also are some players that are just really invested 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.800 in having a very particular narrative. And I'm not saying 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.880 we should throw everything out. I'm saying, right, let's look 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.040 at what the public health frame that surrounds gun safety. 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.840 Let's look at that what the strengths of that frame are. 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:42.879 But also it's important to look at what is what 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.720 are the blind spots, because the blind spots are considerable 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:50.480 and they're impactful. And I said, like, for example, without 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.000 a theory of whiteness, you're not going to be able 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.960 to talk to the majority of the people who own 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:59.439 guns in places like Tennessee and stuff like that. In 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.040 a way, So, so we have theories of health, but 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:04.560 I think the pandemic made pretty clear that if we 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.720 just assume that health is self evident, we get in 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:12.199 trouble because health for a lot of people has to 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.560 do with government and regulation and control and the opposite 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.120 of freedom. And so I just argue that in a way, 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.840 what happened in the pandemic was really it didn't come 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:25.000 out of nowhere. It was actually a reflection of the 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:27.239 tensions that had been building in the gun debate for 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:30.159 twenty years, where public health was seen as the enemy 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:33.040 of the people. And so I argue that, like, let's 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.800 just look at how we got there. But I think 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:40.119 the issue is I mean, I obviously stand by what 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.399 I wrote, I stand by also dying of whiteness, but 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:46.520 dying of whiteness. It was me, obviously writing to liberals saying, 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.920 let me explain the other side to you, whereas here 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.240 I'm writing to liberals, but I'm saying we need to 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:57.399 look at ourselves a little bit right. And you know 0:22:57.800 --> 0:22:59.960 I'm not alone in this. There are people like David Hope, 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:02.640 for example, is starting in a great new organization that's 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:08.480 tied entirely to electoral politics. The Lancet had a big 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:10.840 piece come out the other day that said that a 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:12.960 health model is not enough, that we need to look 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.720 at all these structural factors. In the end of my book, 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:19.400 I say we need to focus on making communities safer. 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.240 It can't just be about like regulating guns. I understand 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:25.840 why those are the arguments we have, but what does 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.920 it mean to invest in communities. There's all this research 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:32.560 that putting in street lights and making more parks and 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.080 more bike lanes, all those things actually reduce crime, and 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.320 so we actually have to invest in communities. And I 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:44.080 also explain why communities of color are potentially distrustful of 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:48.720 the gun safety movement because the policies that they advocate. 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:52.159 I'll give you an example, like red flag laws. You 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:54.760 actually have to call the cops on your relative pretty 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.760 much to get them to come take the gun and 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:01.600 do an assessment background chat. You're asking people to enter 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.440 their name into a database that prings people with a 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:09.360 history of incarceration and arrest and so all these things 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.399 are kind of you know, you understand, if you're like 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:15.639 a person of color with a rest record, you're not 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:17.160 going to want to buy a gun. 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:19.520 I mean, if you're I will I mean, I will 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:21.560 say this as a as a as as a black 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:25.520 woman that doesn't not have an arrest record in any issues, 0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:28.240 let me tell you something that, like, I'm not interested 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:32.520 in entering my name into anybody's database. I'm not interested 0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:36.600 in doing, you know, in calling the cops. There there 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:40.359 have been issues like in my neighborhood, which is largely white, 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:44.560 and I, you know, choose not to call the cops 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:48.240 if I don't have to, because I don't want to 0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:53.880 be the cause of violence, right. And so I think 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:57.399 that you were the way that you are examining this 0:24:57.520 --> 0:24:59.360 and understanding and I kind of want to get back 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.560 to what you said around a theory of whiteness. I 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:07.520 think it's difficult to even express the ideas around a 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:10.960 theory of whiteness when we are still trying to convince 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:14.600 people that racism and white privilege and all of these 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:19.320 other things actually exist. And so, Jonathan, you know, what 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:25.760 do you see as like the biggest barrier to developing 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:29.679 a strategy or expanding a strategy that you said is 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:30.600 twenty years old. 0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:34.200 I mean, you know what I argue is we're using 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.600 an old playbook, which is based on the assumption that, 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:39.480 of course everybody's going to get vaccinated. You know, that's 0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:42.240 kind of the assumption everybody's going to work together for 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:47.800 these seemingly universal aims. But I think we need a 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.719 new public health that's much more engaged. I mean, this 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:52.520 is already happening. I'm not the only person saying this, 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:58.320 to be clear, but much more engaged with building building 0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:02.480 communal infrastructure that awards people collaborating with each other on 0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:04.480