WEBVTT - Why Were C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien Frenemies?! 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.920 You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope, 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:19.120 and iHeartRadio. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 Guess what will What's that? And I go, so, did 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:27.000 you know. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.760 That Turkish delight is a real type of candy. 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:32.959 Like the stuff from the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:35.600 Yeah. I don't know about you, but I didn't try 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.279 Turkish delight until I was in my thirties, and from 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.559 the time I read that book to the time I 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.040 was an adult, I thought it had to be the 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.279 most delicious thing in the world, just the way that 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.320 like that character Edmund craves it and he like basically 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.320 sells out his family for it. Yeah. 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.319 Absolutely. I mean the word delight is in the name, 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.520 so you figure it must be good, but actually what 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:56.440 is it. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.400 It was kind of a precursor to the jellybean. So 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.360 if you imagine like no candy shell but that sweet 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.480 gummy stuff inside, that's actually what Turkish delight is. And 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.840 it can be flavored like rosewater, citrus, and it's really tasty. 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.679 It's thought to a versionate in Turkey during the seventeen hundreds, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:15.600 and that's obviously why it has its name. 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:17.959 I feel like that's such a part time genius phrase 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.040 to say it was the precursor of the jelly bean. 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.560 I don't think you heard that on many other shows, 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:25.880 you know. Actually I thought it was kind of ridiculous 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.640 that Edmund would betray his family for some candy. Though, 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:30.560 don't see what we do need to talk about that for. 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.600 A second, you know, I looked into it. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:34.119 Well. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.160 First of all, Edmund's kind of a slimy character, so 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.720 I didn't feel that he wouldn't betray his family for it. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.479 But you have to remember the book is set during 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.240 World War Two, when candy and sugar were rationed. So 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.520 when he asked the White Witch for Turkish delight, what 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.640 he's actually asking for, and Gabe told me this, because 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:53.160 I never would have figured it out on my own, 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.559 is that he's asking for a taste of normalcy, and 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:01.080 it's like a reminder of really happier time, Like h 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.920 That's something reader is related to in nineteen fifty when 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.000 the book was published, which you know, is just not 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:07.680 something you think about when you're reading it today. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.959 Yeah, and I guess that does make Edmund more more sympathetic, 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:12.880 or at least I suppose it does. But you got 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.400 to give c S Lewis credit for trolling generations of 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.760 kids into craving this rare candy, and I know that 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.120 wasn't his intention, but it's definitely what happened. 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.040 Well, Thankfully, there are lots of more important things we 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.040 can credit C. S. Lewis for. Obviously, he's best known 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.440 as the author behind the Narnia books, the first of 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.400 which is celebrating its seventy fifth anniversary this year, but 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.480 he was also an esteem professor at both Oxford and Cambridge, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.880 not to mention a poet, a theologian, and of course 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.480 the best friend or maybe best frind. 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:44.440 Of me of J. R. R. 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.080 Tolkien. There is a lot to cover, so open up 0:02:48.080 --> 0:03:10.639 your wardrobes and less stuff inside. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:13.919 Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.400 Will Pearson and is always I'm joined by my good 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.679 friend mangesh Hot Ticketter and on the other side of 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.400 that soundproof glass wearing a trucker hat. And I've never 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.079 seen him in a trucker hat, but he pulls it off. 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.120 He looks good and the hat says Aslan is my homeboy. 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.440 That's our friend and producer Dylan Fagan. Now, megol I 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.560 appreciate that you cleared up those misunderstandings I had about 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.600 Turkish delight. So here's yet another thing I've always gotten 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.800 wrong about C. S. Lewis, and that's his nationality. So 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.480 based on the settings and his books, I actually always 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.000 assumed he was born in England, but he was actually Irish. 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.960 So he was born on Dulfast on November twenty ninth, 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.160 eighteen ninety eight, which means just a couple of weeks 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.600 ago it would have been his one hundred and twenty 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:55.480 seventh birthday. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:58.160 I wish I had known, I would have brought party hats. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.640 I'm telling you, Yeah, Well, I think Dylan has enough 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.880 of a hat for us all today. But anyway, Lewis's 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.200 parents were well off and well educated as well. His 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.640 father was a solicitor, which is a type of lawyer, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.440 and his mom graduated from the Royal University of Ireland. 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:15.640 This was back in a time when most women didn't 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.880 attend college, so the whole family loved reading. But CS 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.359 was a prodigy of sorts, like, he was reading and 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.599 writing his own stories by the age of five. 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:26.960 So what kind of stuff was he writing? 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.320 Well, Beatrix Potter's Peter Rabbit books had just come out, 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.479 and CS and his older brother Warren were obsessed with 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.320 these books, so they started making up their own stories 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.200 about talking animals who wore clothes and lived in a 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:44.039 fantasy land called Boxin and CS began writing these stories down, 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.560 so some of these were actually published years later in 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:51.159 a collection called Boxin the Imaginary World of the Young C. S. Lewis. 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:52.239 I'd love to read these things. 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.560 That is insane. I'm very curious about how readable those 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:59.160 five year old stories are. It does sound like C. S. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.080 Lewis had this kind of idyllic childhood, though. 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.280 Well unfortunately it actually all came crashing down the summer 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:09.560 before he turned ten, so his mother died of cancer tragically, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.200 and just a few weeks later his father packed him 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.520 up and sent him off to the English boarding school 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.479 his older brother attended. Losing his mom was hugely traumatic, 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.880 as you might expect, and on top of that, he 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.120 had the culture shock of being in a new country. 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.000 Aside from a brief stand at a school in Belfast 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.560 in nineteen ten, he actually never lived in Ireland again, 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:31.960 and people like me have mistaken him for an English 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:33.040 writer ever since then. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.080 I'm really glad we cleared that up so obviously, this 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.960 whole time, we've been calling him CS, which is the 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.840 only way I've ever known him. But it actually stands 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.440 for Clive Staples, which is such a great name and 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.480 it sounds like a soul singer, right. But CS never 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.240 actually liked it, so he insisted that his family call 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.920 him something else, and, according to his brother, Warren or Warne, 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.920 as he liked to be called quote. In the course 0:05:59.920 --> 0:06:03.200 of one holiday, my brother made the momentous decision to 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.599 change his name. Dislike in Clive and feeling his various 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.640 baby names to be beneath his dignity, he marched up 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.120 to my mother, put a forefinger on his chest, and 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:13.440 announced he. 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.279 Is Jackxie, Jacksie. 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.039 He's stuck to this next day and thereafter, refusing to 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.240 answer to any other name, so to intimate friends, he 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:24.000 was Jack. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:26.560 So where did Jacksie come from? 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.359 I have no idea. There's a remember that he chose 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.560 it in honor of a family dog that was hit 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.760 by a car, but you know, we spent a lot 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.200 of time digging into it and couldn't find solid proof 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.520 that it's true. Either way, the nickname got shortened to Jack, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.840 and that's what his friends called c. S Lewis for 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:42.760 the rest of his life. 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.120 Actually, well, I'm gonna be honest, I don't really like 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.520 calling him Jacksie for the rest of this episode, so 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:49.800 so why don't we stick with CS? 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.040 Yeah, that sounds like a good deal, all right. 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.040 So back to his story. CS was away from home 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.560 and he's a studious kid who loves to read. He 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:00.600 loves to write, but he has a tough time at 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.560 boarding school because the other kids and even the headmaster 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.000 actually pick on him for having an Irish accent. But 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.520 that wasn't the only reason that he got bullied. I 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.640 know this sounds sort of random, but you know how 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.600 most humans have double joint in thumbs, right, Like, look 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.560 at your thumbs you can picture that. Well, Lewis and 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.080 Warney both had only one joint on their thumbs. 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.560 That is so weird. But how did anyone even notice? 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.480 Well, apparently it's difficult to catch or throw a ball 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.720 when you have a one joint in thumb. Then it's 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.240 harder to grip objects in general. I wish both of 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.080 us had that excuse now thinking about this, but fortunately 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.520 we just aren't good at catching either way. But Lewis 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.920 wasn't great at team sports, and he caught a lot 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.560 of flak for it. So for the rest of his 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.360 life he limited his exercise to running, swimming or biking, 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.160 you know, sort of non thumb intensive activities. 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.760 Yeah, I've never thought to categorize those sports in that way, 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:52.240 but I. 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:56.280 Will now no thumbs involved, So c has lewis defective 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.360 thumbs actually didn't prevent him from joining the army though. 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.080 During World War One. He did his training and became 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.880 a low level officer. Then just a few months after 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.000 he began university studies at Oxford, he was shipped off 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.640 to France to fight. So he was wounded on the 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.040 front lines about five months after that and returned to 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.360 England where he got right back to doing what he 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.400 did best and what he loved doing most, which was writing. 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.360 Now he wasn't writing novels or spiritual treatises though it 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.080 actually came later on. Instead, in his early twenties, he 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:29.960 mostly wrote poetry. In fact, the first book he ever 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.280 published was a collection of poems assembled from his teenage years. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.120 It was called Spirits in Bondage and he released it 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.559 under the pen name Clive Hamilton. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.679 First off, it's so strange that he chose Clive Hamilton 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.320 as the name instead of, you know, using Jack, which 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.559 he's been insisting everyone call him by. But secondly, Spirits 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:54.000 in Bondage is a pretty strange title. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:55.959 Yeah, And I think readers felt that way as well, 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.720 because they were not into it. And his second book 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.280 of poetry also fled. So these early failures left a 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.480 bad taste in Lewis's mouth and he rarely wrote poetry 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.839 from that point on. So after the war, Lewis continued 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.960 studying at Oxford. He was actually on scholarship there and 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.800 he graduated a few years later with two degrees, and 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.240 then he became an English tutor at the university in 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:18.560 nineteen twenty five. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.800 And to be clear, tutor at Oxford is different from 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.200 like an SAT tutor, right, It's more like a professor 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.440 who teaches students in very small groups. Often it could 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:32.080 be one on one, and it's this like highly personalized 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:33.800 discussion that Oxford's famous for. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.080 Yeah, that's exactly right. Like it's definitely more prestigious than 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.000 sort of like after school tutoring or something like that. 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.800 And Lewis kept that position at Oxford until nineteen fifty four, 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.520 at which point he became a professor of Medieval and 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.559 Renaissance English at Cambridge, where he actually stayed until his death. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.880 So his career in academia sounds pretty straightforward. He was like, 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.920 clearly brilliant. He taught at the country's top school. But 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.160 when it comes to his personal life, if things actually 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.840 get a little more unusual, no, what do you mean 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.400 by that? Well, during the war, Lewis befriended a fellow 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.480 soldier named Patty Moore, and they made a pact that 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.160 if either one of them was killed in action, the 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.560 survivor would look after the other's parents. Louis of course 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.040 made it through the war, but Patty didn't. So Louis 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.040 stayed true to his word and he took in Patty's mom, 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.520 a woman named Janie Moore, as well as his sister Maureen. 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:27.840 In fact, he cared for Janey for the rest of 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.480 her life, and actually there are rumors that they had 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:34.480 an affair, although most experts believe Louis broke it off 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.640 when he became more devoted to Christianity and he sort 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.120 of sounds like a soap opera, Yeah, it does. 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.720 And things get stranger. Louis's older brother also moves in 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.600 with them. Warney began drinking heavily after his time in 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.960 the British Army. He was actually up to three bottles 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.160 of whiskey a day according to some reports. And well, 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.120 I'm sure that all of that made for a difficult 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.800 writing environment. That's actually the backdrop against which Lewis is 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.160 writing some of his mo celebrated works, including the Narnia series. 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.320 But at the time most people didn't know any of 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.679 this because Lewis was super shy and also very very private. 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.760 He never talked much about his personal life or his feelings, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.520 even with his close friends, which isn't to say he 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:17.920 was cold. He just always thought there was something more 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.760 interesting to talk about than himself. As one of his 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.760 friends at Cambridge put it, quote, Lewis was too shy 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.480 to seem to want to be known, and too modest 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.600 to think that anybody would want to know him. 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.319 Hm. That's interesting because you know, you think with that 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.200 Oxford and Cambridge pedigree, you'd think he might be more pompous. 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.600 And I mean, I will admit I do find some 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:39.720 of his writing a little stuffy at times. 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.360 Yeah, but he really was unpretentious. And I have a 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.480 funny story that illustrates just how down to earth he was, 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.880 but I'm going to save that for after the break. 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.360 Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where we're celebrating the 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.000 seventy fifth anniversary of The Lion, the Witch, and the 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:13.439 Wardrobe with a deep dive into CS Lewis's life. If 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.400 you're enjoying this episode, please share it with a friend 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.040 who loves the Narnia series as much as we do. Okay, well, 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.240 so before the break, we were talking about how, despite 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:27.120 moving in these highbrow academic circles, C. S. Lewis was 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.600 a pretty humble guy, and it turns out that even 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.160 extended to his wardrobe, by which I mean his actual clothes, 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.360 not his furniture. Gabe found a bunch of stories about 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.360 what a terrible dresser C. S. Lewis was. Apparently, his 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.320 favorite outfit was an old tweed coat, a pair of 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.199 baggy flannel pants, and a beat up felt hat. According 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.760 to one report, Lewis once lost his hat while on 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.760 a picnic, only to find it months later under a 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.160 bush with a bunch of field mice living in it. Actually, 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.000 here's how his brother Warnie tells the story. Quote Jack 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.600 once took a guest for an early morning walk on 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.800 the Magdalen College grounds after a very wet night. Presently, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.400 the guest brought his attention to a curious lump of 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.520 cloth hanging on a bush. That looks like my hat, 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.520 said Jack. Then joyfully, it is my hat, and clapping 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.560 the sodden mass on his head, he continued his walk. 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:20.240 That's a very great story. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.200 So in addition to not really caring about his looks 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.400 or the condition of his hats, he also didn't care 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.319 that much about making money. He didn't earn a lot 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.800 as a tutor, and whatever royalties he received from his books, 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.960 he gave a way to charity. And while his heart 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.240 was definitely in the right place. C. S. Lewis kind 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.000 of had his head in the clouds about his finances, 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.240 Like because he donated all his earnings, he thought he 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.959 was exempt from paying taxes, which the government informed him 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:49.360 was definitely not the case. 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.320 Yeah, sadly it doesn't exactly work that way. But all right, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.840 So we've covered a lot of Lewis's life so far, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.200 and there's one aspect that we've barely touched on, and 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.840 that's his spiritual which, of course we feel like we 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.240 need to get to given what he wrote in later years, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.720 and to talk about that, we need to discuss the 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:11.200 other fantasy writing elephant in the room, and that's mister J. R. R. Tolkien. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.839 So this is the bit I've been so excited about. 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.319 I want to hear all the tea. 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.280 All right. Well, the TLDR is that Lewis and Tolkien 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.760 had a long, complicated friendship. This is definitely one of 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:25.960 those friendships where you just wish you could be a 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.840 fly on the wall to hear this conversation. And the 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.600 reason things were complicated is it because they were both 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.960 fantasy authors with initials in their names. It's because they 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.480 disagreed on some pretty big things, including religion. So the 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:41.840 two first met in nineteen twenty six. This was at 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.680 a gathering for the Oxford English Department because Tolkien was 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.920 also a tutor there. But they didn't become friends until 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.880 the early nineteen thirties. They were both part of an 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.680 Oxford literary group called the Inklings, and they'd gather every 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.920 week in university offices or maybe at local pub and 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.200 they'd have these met meet to workshop their writing. And 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.840 to describe the way these meetings went, I have to 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.320 paint a totally cliche picture, but it's sort of the truth. 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.120 So here it goes. They would sit in leather armchairs 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.080 in front of a crackling fire, drinking brandy and smoking cigars, 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.800 and they would just talk about story ideas for hours 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.160 on end. Is that not exactly what you picture? 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.960 When I'm so perfect? I just the only thing you 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:25.440 didn't describe was elbow patches. 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:32.160 I feel like right right on same same. Anyway, it 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.440 wasn't long before Lewis and Tolkien bonded over a mutual 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.480 love of fantasy and myth, but one of the biggest 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.720 points of contention between them was their differing views on God. 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.520 Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic, and Lewis, who was 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.960 raised Irish Protestant, became an atheist in his teens and 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.680 remained one during his early career at Oxford. 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.400 That is so wild to think about if you know 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.480 his writing, that he was like an atheist. Like I 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.120 remember being in fourth grade and my friend Jeremy told 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.920 me that as in the line of the Witch in 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.360 the Wardrobe was supposed to be Jesus, and I remember 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.240 thinking that is so ridiculous. I was like, read the 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.280 text a little closer he's obviously a lion. 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.800 Well. The thing is Lewis is definitely known today as 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.640 a theologian, but his spiritual journey was anything but straightforward. 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.800 Like he once wrote about having a deep spiritual longing 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.160 that he could never quite square with his disbelief. He 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.160 referred to it as the God sized hole in his life, 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.280 and it was his conversations with Tolkien that set him 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.480 on the path to filling that gap. So in nineteen 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.160 thirty one, Lewis and Tolkien went on a long walk 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:42.160 with a fellow inkling named Henry Victor. Dyson and Lewis 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.720 had been struggling to make sense of his spirituality for 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.280 a while at that point, and so during the course 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.600 of their walk, the three men began talking about the 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.720 relationship between God and myth. Tolkien expressed his belief that 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.600 folklore and mythology were ways of articulating higher truths about 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.120 the nature of reality, and that's how he viewed Christianity. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.080 It was a myth, but you know, a true one. 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.359 So to Tolkien, the message of Christianity was the truth 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.640 about the world, and all the other ancient stories out 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.240 there were attempts to express that same truth. Something about 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.439 that struck a chord with Lewis, so much so that 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.400 within two weeks of that walk, he announced that he 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:19.440 was actually Christian. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:19.720 Again. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:21.720 I love the one. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:23.399 I love that they go in these walks and just 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.920 talk about God like that's a myth. Yeah. But also 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.000 I love that something clicked with them, you know, like 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.000 they about atheist and suddenly he's hearing about myths and 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.720 he decides like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I'm in. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:35.639 I'm totally in. 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:35.960 Yeah. 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.679 And it actually was notable in another way too. So 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:42.480 not only did their conversation rekindle Lewis's faith, it also 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.080 inspired not one, but two of the greatest fantasy series 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:50.320 ever written, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and Lewis's Chronicles 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.119 of Narnia. All that talk of myth making had the 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.840 authors itching to write their own stories, the earliest drafts 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.639 of which they presented to their fellow Inklings over the 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.240 next few years. Once again, to be a fly on 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:03.560 the wall just would have been wild. 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.600 I am curious. So were the other members of the 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.600 club into the fantasy writing as you know, the same 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.360 way that Lewis and Tolkien were, or were they kind 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.560 of like rolling their eyes like, oh great, here we 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:16.440 go with Elves again. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.080 You know, I sort of wish it was the Lauderan. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.320 They were definitely into it, Like I think it helped 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:26.400 that they were exactly and they were all well read 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:30.439 writers themselves who loved classic fantasy stories like a Wolf 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.639 and Tales of King Arthur. But Gay pointed me to 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:35.960 this article in The Atlantic that shed some light on 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.240 other reasons why they may have been so open to fantasy, 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:43.359 particularly after their experiences in World War One. So here's 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.680 how the author James Parker puts it. Blown sky high 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.639 by the psychic rupture of the Great War, the Inklings 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:54.480 responded not with fragmentation and pessimism, but with a redoubled 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:58.680 commitment to the world behind, the world freshly visible through 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.080 this new rip in the fabric. It's pretty powerful quote there, 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.720 So you know, rather than focus on the surface level 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.679 ugliness that they were faced with, these guys chose to 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.840 invent fantasy worlds where they could explore a broader view 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.520 of life. It's one of the reasons why their books 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.480 remained so compelling, and it's also a big reason why 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.680 they became such close friends. They shared a similar view 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.320 of the world and of the role that writing and myths, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.919 play and making sense of the world. But you know, 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.719 as we've alluded to, their friendship was rocky at times. 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.600 Tolkien was a stickler for clarity and precision, and he 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.679 felt Lewis's Narnia books lack those qualities. In fact, Tolkien 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.600 said that the series suffered from quote incoherent mythology. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:45.920 So maybe he also didn't see the Lion as Jesus either, Like, like. 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.800 You're looking looking for some backup on that. Yeah, I'm 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.679 pretty sure he got that reference. But you know, in 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.840 addition to the writing, he had personal beef with Lewis 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.520 two He looked a later in their lives, and Tolkien 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.520 felt that Lewis had developed anti Catholic views, which offended him, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.280 and he didn't approve of a romance that Lewis struck 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.560 up with an American divorcee. Still, the men never lost 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.199 touch completely, and in public they continue to praise one 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:12.920 another's work. 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:19.000 It is really funny and fascinating that fantasy, even in 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:23.199 those times, provides this space for people to see the 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.360 world as they want it to be, you know, like, 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.119 and you see how absolutely comforting fantasy can be for 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.040 like marginalized people today and how many people fall in 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.240 love with these worlds. And it's amazing to think that 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.600 these people who've suffered through a world war are now 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.000