1 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope, 2 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: Guess what will What's that? And I go, so, did 4 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: you know. 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: That Turkish delight is a real type of candy. 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 2: Like the stuff from the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 7 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know about you, but I didn't try 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: Turkish delight until I was in my thirties, and from 9 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: the time I read that book to the time I 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: was an adult, I thought it had to be the 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: most delicious thing in the world, just the way that 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: like that character Edmund craves it and he like basically 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: sells out his family for it. Yeah. 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,319 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean the word delight is in the name, 15 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: so you figure it must be good, but actually what 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: is it. 17 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: It was kind of a precursor to the jellybean. So 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: if you imagine like no candy shell but that sweet 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: gummy stuff inside, that's actually what Turkish delight is. And 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: it can be flavored like rosewater, citrus, and it's really tasty. 21 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: It's thought to a versionate in Turkey during the seventeen hundreds, 22 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: and that's obviously why it has its name. 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: I feel like that's such a part time genius phrase 24 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 2: to say it was the precursor of the jelly bean. 25 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: I don't think you heard that on many other shows, 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: you know. Actually I thought it was kind of ridiculous 27 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: that Edmund would betray his family for some candy. Though, 28 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: don't see what we do need to talk about that for. 29 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: A second, you know, I looked into it. 30 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 3: Well. 31 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: First of all, Edmund's kind of a slimy character, so 32 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: I didn't feel that he wouldn't betray his family for it. 33 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: But you have to remember the book is set during 34 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: World War Two, when candy and sugar were rationed. So 35 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: when he asked the White Witch for Turkish delight, what 36 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: he's actually asking for, and Gabe told me this, because 37 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: I never would have figured it out on my own, 38 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 1: is that he's asking for a taste of normalcy, and 39 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: it's like a reminder of really happier time, Like h 40 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: That's something reader is related to in nineteen fifty when 41 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: the book was published, which you know, is just not 42 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: something you think about when you're reading it today. 43 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess that does make Edmund more more sympathetic, 44 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: or at least I suppose it does. But you got 45 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: to give c S Lewis credit for trolling generations of 46 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: kids into craving this rare candy, and I know that 47 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: wasn't his intention, but it's definitely what happened. 48 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: Well, Thankfully, there are lots of more important things we 49 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: can credit C. S. Lewis for. Obviously, he's best known 50 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: as the author behind the Narnia books, the first of 51 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: which is celebrating its seventy fifth anniversary this year, but 52 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: he was also an esteem professor at both Oxford and Cambridge, 53 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: not to mention a poet, a theologian, and of course 54 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: the best friend or maybe best frind. 55 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: Of me of J. R. R. 56 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: Tolkien. There is a lot to cover, so open up 57 00:02:48,080 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: your wardrobes and less stuff inside. 58 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 59 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: Will Pearson and is always I'm joined by my good 60 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 2: friend mangesh Hot Ticketter and on the other side of 61 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: that soundproof glass wearing a trucker hat. And I've never 62 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: seen him in a trucker hat, but he pulls it off. 63 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: He looks good and the hat says Aslan is my homeboy. 64 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: That's our friend and producer Dylan Fagan. Now, megol I 65 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: appreciate that you cleared up those misunderstandings I had about 66 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: Turkish delight. So here's yet another thing I've always gotten 67 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: wrong about C. S. Lewis, and that's his nationality. So 68 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: based on the settings and his books, I actually always 69 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: assumed he was born in England, but he was actually Irish. 70 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: So he was born on Dulfast on November twenty ninth, 71 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: eighteen ninety eight, which means just a couple of weeks 72 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: ago it would have been his one hundred and twenty 73 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: seventh birthday. 74 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: I wish I had known, I would have brought party hats. 75 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: I'm telling you, Yeah, Well, I think Dylan has enough 76 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: of a hat for us all today. But anyway, Lewis's 77 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: parents were well off and well educated as well. His 78 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: father was a solicitor, which is a type of lawyer, 79 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: and his mom graduated from the Royal University of Ireland. 80 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 2: This was back in a time when most women didn't 81 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: attend college, so the whole family loved reading. But CS 82 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 2: was a prodigy of sorts, like, he was reading and 83 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: writing his own stories by the age of five. 84 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: So what kind of stuff was he writing? 85 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: Well, Beatrix Potter's Peter Rabbit books had just come out, 86 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: and CS and his older brother Warren were obsessed with 87 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: these books, so they started making up their own stories 88 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: about talking animals who wore clothes and lived in a 89 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: fantasy land called Boxin and CS began writing these stories down, 90 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: so some of these were actually published years later in 91 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 2: a collection called Boxin the Imaginary World of the Young C. S. Lewis. 92 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 2: I'd love to read these things. 93 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: That is insane. I'm very curious about how readable those 94 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: five year old stories are. It does sound like C. S. 95 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: Lewis had this kind of idyllic childhood, though. 96 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 2: Well unfortunately it actually all came crashing down the summer 97 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: before he turned ten, so his mother died of cancer tragically, 98 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: and just a few weeks later his father packed him 99 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: up and sent him off to the English boarding school 100 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 2: his older brother attended. Losing his mom was hugely traumatic, 101 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: as you might expect, and on top of that, he 102 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: had the culture shock of being in a new country. 103 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: Aside from a brief stand at a school in Belfast 104 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: in nineteen ten, he actually never lived in Ireland again, 105 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: and people like me have mistaken him for an English 106 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 2: writer ever since then. 107 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm really glad we cleared that up so obviously, this 108 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: whole time, we've been calling him CS, which is the 109 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: only way I've ever known him. But it actually stands 110 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: for Clive Staples, which is such a great name and 111 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: it sounds like a soul singer, right. But CS never 112 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: actually liked it, so he insisted that his family call 113 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: him something else, and, according to his brother, Warren or Warne, 114 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: as he liked to be called quote. In the course 115 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: of one holiday, my brother made the momentous decision to 116 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: change his name. Dislike in Clive and feeling his various 117 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: baby names to be beneath his dignity, he marched up 118 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: to my mother, put a forefinger on his chest, and 119 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: announced he. 120 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 2: Is Jackxie, Jacksie. 121 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: He's stuck to this next day and thereafter, refusing to 122 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: answer to any other name, so to intimate friends, he 123 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: was Jack. 124 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: So where did Jacksie come from? 125 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: I have no idea. There's a remember that he chose 126 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: it in honor of a family dog that was hit 127 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: by a car, but you know, we spent a lot 128 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: of time digging into it and couldn't find solid proof 129 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: that it's true. Either way, the nickname got shortened to Jack, 130 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: and that's what his friends called c. S Lewis for 131 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. 132 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: Actually, well, I'm gonna be honest, I don't really like 133 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: calling him Jacksie for the rest of this episode, so 134 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: so why don't we stick with CS? 135 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds like a good deal, all right. 136 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 2: So back to his story. CS was away from home 137 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: and he's a studious kid who loves to read. He 138 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: loves to write, but he has a tough time at 139 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 2: boarding school because the other kids and even the headmaster 140 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: actually pick on him for having an Irish accent. But 141 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: that wasn't the only reason that he got bullied. I 142 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: know this sounds sort of random, but you know how 143 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: most humans have double joint in thumbs, right, Like, look 144 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: at your thumbs you can picture that. Well, Lewis and 145 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: Warney both had only one joint on their thumbs. 146 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: That is so weird. But how did anyone even notice? 147 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: Well, apparently it's difficult to catch or throw a ball 148 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: when you have a one joint in thumb. Then it's 149 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: harder to grip objects in general. I wish both of 150 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: us had that excuse now thinking about this, but fortunately 151 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: we just aren't good at catching either way. But Lewis 152 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: wasn't great at team sports, and he caught a lot 153 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: of flak for it. So for the rest of his 154 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: life he limited his exercise to running, swimming or biking, 155 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: you know, sort of non thumb intensive activities. 156 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never thought to categorize those sports in that way, 157 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: but I. 158 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: Will now no thumbs involved, So c has lewis defective 159 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: thumbs actually didn't prevent him from joining the army though. 160 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: During World War One. He did his training and became 161 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: a low level officer. Then just a few months after 162 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: he began university studies at Oxford, he was shipped off 163 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: to France to fight. So he was wounded on the 164 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: front lines about five months after that and returned to 165 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: England where he got right back to doing what he 166 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: did best and what he loved doing most, which was writing. 167 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: Now he wasn't writing novels or spiritual treatises though it 168 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: actually came later on. Instead, in his early twenties, he 169 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: mostly wrote poetry. In fact, the first book he ever 170 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: published was a collection of poems assembled from his teenage years. 171 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: It was called Spirits in Bondage and he released it 172 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 2: under the pen name Clive Hamilton. 173 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: First off, it's so strange that he chose Clive Hamilton 174 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: as the name instead of, you know, using Jack, which 175 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: he's been insisting everyone call him by. But secondly, Spirits 176 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: in Bondage is a pretty strange title. 177 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think readers felt that way as well, 178 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: because they were not into it. And his second book 179 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: of poetry also fled. So these early failures left a 180 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: bad taste in Lewis's mouth and he rarely wrote poetry 181 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 2: from that point on. So after the war, Lewis continued 182 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: studying at Oxford. He was actually on scholarship there and 183 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: he graduated a few years later with two degrees, and 184 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: then he became an English tutor at the university in 185 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five. 186 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: And to be clear, tutor at Oxford is different from 187 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: like an SAT tutor, right, It's more like a professor 188 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: who teaches students in very small groups. Often it could 189 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: be one on one, and it's this like highly personalized 190 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: discussion that Oxford's famous for. 191 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. Like it's definitely more prestigious than 192 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: sort of like after school tutoring or something like that. 193 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: And Lewis kept that position at Oxford until nineteen fifty four, 194 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: at which point he became a professor of Medieval and 195 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 2: Renaissance English at Cambridge, where he actually stayed until his death. 196 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: So his career in academia sounds pretty straightforward. He was like, 197 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: clearly brilliant. He taught at the country's top school. But 198 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: when it comes to his personal life, if things actually 199 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 2: get a little more unusual, no, what do you mean 200 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: by that? Well, during the war, Lewis befriended a fellow 201 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: soldier named Patty Moore, and they made a pact that 202 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: if either one of them was killed in action, the 203 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: survivor would look after the other's parents. Louis of course 204 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: made it through the war, but Patty didn't. So Louis 205 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: stayed true to his word and he took in Patty's mom, 206 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 2: a woman named Janie Moore, as well as his sister Maureen. 207 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: In fact, he cared for Janey for the rest of 208 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: her life, and actually there are rumors that they had 209 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: an affair, although most experts believe Louis broke it off 210 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: when he became more devoted to Christianity and he sort 211 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: of sounds like a soap opera, Yeah, it does. 212 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: And things get stranger. Louis's older brother also moves in 213 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: with them. Warney began drinking heavily after his time in 214 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: the British Army. He was actually up to three bottles 215 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: of whiskey a day according to some reports. And well, 216 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure that all of that made for a difficult 217 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: writing environment. That's actually the backdrop against which Lewis is 218 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: writing some of his mo celebrated works, including the Narnia series. 219 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: But at the time most people didn't know any of 220 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: this because Lewis was super shy and also very very private. 221 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: He never talked much about his personal life or his feelings, 222 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: even with his close friends, which isn't to say he 223 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: was cold. He just always thought there was something more 224 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: interesting to talk about than himself. As one of his 225 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: friends at Cambridge put it, quote, Lewis was too shy 226 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: to seem to want to be known, and too modest 227 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: to think that anybody would want to know him. 228 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 2: Hm. That's interesting because you know, you think with that 229 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: Oxford and Cambridge pedigree, you'd think he might be more pompous. 230 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: And I mean, I will admit I do find some 231 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: of his writing a little stuffy at times. 232 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but he really was unpretentious. And I have a 233 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: funny story that illustrates just how down to earth he was, 234 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: but I'm going to save that for after the break. 235 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where we're celebrating the 236 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: seventy fifth anniversary of The Lion, the Witch, and the 237 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: Wardrobe with a deep dive into CS Lewis's life. If 238 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: you're enjoying this episode, please share it with a friend 239 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: who loves the Narnia series as much as we do. Okay, well, 240 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: so before the break, we were talking about how, despite 241 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: moving in these highbrow academic circles, C. S. Lewis was 242 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: a pretty humble guy, and it turns out that even 243 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: extended to his wardrobe, by which I mean his actual clothes, 244 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: not his furniture. Gabe found a bunch of stories about 245 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: what a terrible dresser C. S. Lewis was. Apparently, his 246 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: favorite outfit was an old tweed coat, a pair of 247 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 1: baggy flannel pants, and a beat up felt hat. According 248 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: to one report, Lewis once lost his hat while on 249 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: a picnic, only to find it months later under a 250 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: bush with a bunch of field mice living in it. Actually, 251 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: here's how his brother Warnie tells the story. Quote Jack 252 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: once took a guest for an early morning walk on 253 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: the Magdalen College grounds after a very wet night. Presently, 254 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: the guest brought his attention to a curious lump of 255 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: cloth hanging on a bush. That looks like my hat, 256 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: said Jack. Then joyfully, it is my hat, and clapping 257 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: the sodden mass on his head, he continued his walk. 258 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: That's a very great story. 259 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: So in addition to not really caring about his looks 260 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: or the condition of his hats, he also didn't care 261 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: that much about making money. He didn't earn a lot 262 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: as a tutor, and whatever royalties he received from his books, 263 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: he gave a way to charity. And while his heart 264 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: was definitely in the right place. C. S. Lewis kind 265 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: of had his head in the clouds about his finances, 266 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: Like because he donated all his earnings, he thought he 267 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: was exempt from paying taxes, which the government informed him 268 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: was definitely not the case. 269 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, sadly it doesn't exactly work that way. But all right, 270 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: So we've covered a lot of Lewis's life so far, 271 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: and there's one aspect that we've barely touched on, and 272 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: that's his spiritual which, of course we feel like we 273 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 2: need to get to given what he wrote in later years, 274 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 2: and to talk about that, we need to discuss the 275 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: other fantasy writing elephant in the room, and that's mister J. R. R. Tolkien. 276 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: So this is the bit I've been so excited about. 277 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: I want to hear all the tea. 278 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: All right. Well, the TLDR is that Lewis and Tolkien 279 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: had a long, complicated friendship. This is definitely one of 280 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: those friendships where you just wish you could be a 281 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: fly on the wall to hear this conversation. And the 282 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: reason things were complicated is it because they were both 283 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: fantasy authors with initials in their names. It's because they 284 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: disagreed on some pretty big things, including religion. So the 285 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: two first met in nineteen twenty six. This was at 286 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: a gathering for the Oxford English Department because Tolkien was 287 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: also a tutor there. But they didn't become friends until 288 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: the early nineteen thirties. They were both part of an 289 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: Oxford literary group called the Inklings, and they'd gather every 290 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: week in university offices or maybe at local pub and 291 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: they'd have these met meet to workshop their writing. And 292 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 2: to describe the way these meetings went, I have to 293 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: paint a totally cliche picture, but it's sort of the truth. 294 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 2: So here it goes. They would sit in leather armchairs 295 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: in front of a crackling fire, drinking brandy and smoking cigars, 296 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: and they would just talk about story ideas for hours 297 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: on end. Is that not exactly what you picture? 298 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: When I'm so perfect? I just the only thing you 299 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: didn't describe was elbow patches. 300 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: I feel like right right on same same. Anyway, it 301 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: wasn't long before Lewis and Tolkien bonded over a mutual 302 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: love of fantasy and myth, but one of the biggest 303 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 2: points of contention between them was their differing views on God. 304 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic, and Lewis, who was 305 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: raised Irish Protestant, became an atheist in his teens and 306 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: remained one during his early career at Oxford. 307 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: That is so wild to think about if you know 308 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: his writing, that he was like an atheist. Like I 309 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: remember being in fourth grade and my friend Jeremy told 310 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: me that as in the line of the Witch in 311 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: the Wardrobe was supposed to be Jesus, and I remember 312 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: thinking that is so ridiculous. I was like, read the 313 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: text a little closer he's obviously a lion. 314 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: Well. The thing is Lewis is definitely known today as 315 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: a theologian, but his spiritual journey was anything but straightforward. 316 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: Like he once wrote about having a deep spiritual longing 317 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: that he could never quite square with his disbelief. He 318 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: referred to it as the God sized hole in his life, 319 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: and it was his conversations with Tolkien that set him 320 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: on the path to filling that gap. So in nineteen 321 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 2: thirty one, Lewis and Tolkien went on a long walk 322 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: with a fellow inkling named Henry Victor. Dyson and Lewis 323 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: had been struggling to make sense of his spirituality for 324 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: a while at that point, and so during the course 325 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: of their walk, the three men began talking about the 326 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: relationship between God and myth. Tolkien expressed his belief that 327 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: folklore and mythology were ways of articulating higher truths about 328 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: the nature of reality, and that's how he viewed Christianity. 329 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 2: It was a myth, but you know, a true one. 330 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: So to Tolkien, the message of Christianity was the truth 331 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 2: about the world, and all the other ancient stories out 332 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: there were attempts to express that same truth. Something about 333 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 2: that struck a chord with Lewis, so much so that 334 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 2: within two weeks of that walk, he announced that he 335 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 2: was actually Christian. 336 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: Again. 337 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: I love the one. 338 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: I love that they go in these walks and just 339 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: talk about God like that's a myth. Yeah. But also 340 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: I love that something clicked with them, you know, like 341 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: they about atheist and suddenly he's hearing about myths and 342 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: he decides like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I'm in. 343 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: I'm totally in. 344 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 345 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 2: And it actually was notable in another way too. So 346 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: not only did their conversation rekindle Lewis's faith, it also 347 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: inspired not one, but two of the greatest fantasy series 348 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: ever written, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and Lewis's Chronicles 349 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 2: of Narnia. All that talk of myth making had the 350 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: authors itching to write their own stories, the earliest drafts 351 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: of which they presented to their fellow Inklings over the 352 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: next few years. Once again, to be a fly on 353 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: the wall just would have been wild. 354 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: I am curious. So were the other members of the 355 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: club into the fantasy writing as you know, the same 356 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: way that Lewis and Tolkien were, or were they kind 357 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: of like rolling their eyes like, oh great, here we 358 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: go with Elves again. 359 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: You know, I sort of wish it was the Lauderan. 360 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: They were definitely into it, Like I think it helped 361 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 2: that they were exactly and they were all well read 362 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 2: writers themselves who loved classic fantasy stories like a Wolf 363 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: and Tales of King Arthur. But Gay pointed me to 364 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: this article in The Atlantic that shed some light on 365 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: other reasons why they may have been so open to fantasy, 366 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: particularly after their experiences in World War One. So here's 367 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: how the author James Parker puts it. Blown sky high 368 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 2: by the psychic rupture of the Great War, the Inklings 369 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: responded not with fragmentation and pessimism, but with a redoubled 370 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 2: commitment to the world behind, the world freshly visible through 371 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: this new rip in the fabric. It's pretty powerful quote there, 372 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: So you know, rather than focus on the surface level 373 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 2: ugliness that they were faced with, these guys chose to 374 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: invent fantasy worlds where they could explore a broader view 375 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: of life. It's one of the reasons why their books 376 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 2: remained so compelling, and it's also a big reason why 377 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: they became such close friends. They shared a similar view 378 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: of the world and of the role that writing and myths, 379 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 2: play and making sense of the world. But you know, 380 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 2: as we've alluded to, their friendship was rocky at times. 381 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: Tolkien was a stickler for clarity and precision, and he 382 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 2: felt Lewis's Narnia books lack those qualities. In fact, Tolkien 383 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: said that the series suffered from quote incoherent mythology. 384 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: So maybe he also didn't see the Lion as Jesus either, Like, like. 385 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: You're looking looking for some backup on that. Yeah, I'm 386 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 2: pretty sure he got that reference. But you know, in 387 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: addition to the writing, he had personal beef with Lewis 388 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: two He looked a later in their lives, and Tolkien 389 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: felt that Lewis had developed anti Catholic views, which offended him, 390 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: and he didn't approve of a romance that Lewis struck 391 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: up with an American divorcee. Still, the men never lost 392 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: touch completely, and in public they continue to praise one 393 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: another's work. 394 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: It is really funny and fascinating that fantasy, even in 395 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: those times, provides this space for people to see the 396 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: world as they want it to be, you know, like, 397 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: and you see how absolutely comforting fantasy can be for 398 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: like marginalized people today and how many people fall in 399 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: love with these worlds. And it's amazing to think that 400 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: these people who've suffered through a world war are now 401 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: looking to or too world wars, are looking to fantasy 402 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: to sort of make themselves whole and create a new world. 403 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: And that's really beautiful. But that's a great way to 404 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: put it when you're talking about this, like it is 405 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: interesting that you know, maybe it's just because Lewis is 406 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: so humble or quiet, like it sounds like Tolkien is 407 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: the one who's doing most of the complaining. 408 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: Well, if that's true, he may have actually regretted it. 409 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 2: So after Lewis died of kidney failure in nineteen sixty three, 410 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: Tolkien wrote a letter to his own daughter where he 411 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: lamented the way loss scenes to pile up in old age. 412 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 2: He said, referring to Lewis's death quote, so far, I 413 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: have felt like an old tree that is losing all 414 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 2: its leaves one by one. This feels like an axe 415 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: blow near the roots. 416 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: They probably cared about each other more than they let on, 417 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: But you know, speaking of his daughter, our family actually 418 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: went to a Tolkien exhibit at the Morgan Library here 419 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: in New York some years ago and it was full 420 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: of Tolkien's drawings, including these Christmas cards he'd drawn and 421 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: written for his children, and it was so fun and 422 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: so weird and so elaborate, and it made me think 423 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: that like having a talented fantasy writer as your dad 424 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: and having him write you letters all the time could 425 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: be a really wonderful thing. 426 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: Not bad, not bad. 427 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that there's a lot we don't know 428 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: or can't quite verify about the friendship of these two, 429 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: Like there's an anne about C. S. Lewis that I'd 430 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: heard about but was never able to verify before. And 431 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: this actually comes from our friend Adam in college. He 432 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: told me that Lewis had once thought about converting to 433 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: Hinduism and that he had debated between becoming a Christian 434 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: and a Hindu, and honestly, it just sounded so far fetched. 435 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: But we finally got the chance to look into the 436 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: story this week and what I found was pretty interesting. 437 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: So I'm going to share it with you, But first 438 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: we got to take another quick break. 439 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 2: Man, you are dropping the teases in this episode. Welcome 440 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: back to part time genius. Okay, man, it sounds like 441 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: he did some detective work here. I love some good 442 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 2: detective work. So tell me about the rumor. Is it true? 443 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 2: Did C. S. Lewis almost become a Hindu? 444 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: Well, he definitely gave it some real thought. In fact, 445 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: he thought long and hard about just about every religion 446 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: out there, and he wrote about all of them. Most 447 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: of us know Lewis for his children's stories or other 448 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: works of fiction, but obviously a huge chunk of his 449 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: writing was these scholarly essays and ruminations on theology, and 450 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: the latter is where you can find Lewis's thoughts on 451 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: Hinduism and pretty much all the other religions too. So overall, 452 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: I get the impression that Lewis explored as many different 453 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: faiths as he could during his journey from agnosticism to 454 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: becoming a man of faith. But as he explained in 455 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: a nineteen forty five essay, he only considered two options 456 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: for himself, Christianity and Hinduism. 457 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 2: And why do you think those two? 458 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 1: Well, it comes down to the kind of person he 459 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: was and how he viewed the world. As you pointed out, 460 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: Lewis came to his religious belief thanks largely to his 461 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: connection with fantasy and myth. That was how he found 462 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: his way into it. By seeing Christianity as the truest 463 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: expression of the stories he had grown up reading. Obviously, 464 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: that's not usually how someone becomes a Christian, but that's 465 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: what worked for Lewis because it was able to satisfy 466 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: both sides of himself, which were the logical and the 467 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: emotional aspects, or the rational and the artful or mathemagic 468 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: as our pal Bob Pittman likes to say, but whatever 469 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: you want to call it. Lewis was a clear cut 470 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: example of that dichotomy. So on the one hand, he 471 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: was this rigorous scholar who could debate and reason with 472 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: the best of them, And on the other hand, he's 473 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: into Lewis Carroll and Norse mythology and he's writing about 474 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: witches and talking animals. And Lewis believed that both sides 475 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: were really important, Like to have a good story, or 476 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: a good life, or a good religion, you needed both 477 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: reason and emotion. And he decided that Christianity and Hinduism 478 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: were the only religions that did that for him. 479 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: So what do he think those two had that other 480 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 2: religions didn't. 481 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question, and I'll answer it with 482 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: a soup analogy because that's how I. 483 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 2: Was hoping that. 484 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: Lewis said, there really aren't as many different religions as 485 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: you might imagine, because they all fall into one of 486 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: two categories. He saw them as thick or clear, and 487 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: by thick he meant archaic or primitive religions, which he 488 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: believed weren't moral enough. And then there were the philosophical, ethical, 489 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: and universalizing religions, which he didn't see as spiritual enough. 490 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: So for Lewis, Christianity and Hinduism were the only two 491 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: religions that didn't go too far in either of those 492 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: directions and instead kind of fell in the middle. They 493 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: appealed to both reason and imagination. And as he put it, quote, 494 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: if there is a true religion, it must be both 495 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: thick and clear, for the true God must have made 496 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: both the child and the man, both the savage and 497 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: the citizen, both the head and the belly. And the 498 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: only two religions that fulfill this condition are Hinduism and Christianity. 499 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess he's pretty clear on his 500 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 2: opinion here, But what made him become a Christian and 501 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: not Hindu? You know, that's where things get a little hairy. 502 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 2: Lewis said, that Hinduism didn't fully meet his criteria because 503 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 2: he saw it as existing only in two forms, the 504 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: quote unredeemable savage religion that goes on in the village 505 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: and that of the hermit who philosophizes in the forest. 506 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: But he felt Christianity was compelling to all different kinds 507 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: of people, both the highbrow and the primitive alike, and 508 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 2: I guess the middle brow as well. Now, obviously Lewis 509 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: betrays his understanding of these religions and he's not doing 510 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: his argument any favors by dismissing whole religions like that. 511 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: But it is true that you could split any religion 512 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: into a high and low version of itself, and also 513 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 2: how you practice it is really really wide. But I mean, 514 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 2: if he believed that old myths and stories were all 515 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: expressions of deeper truth, wouldn't that mean that all fates 516 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: are equally viable. 517 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he mixed different fables and mythology into 518 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: his books. And if you look at something like the 519 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: Narnia series, people call it a Christian allegory, but it 520 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: also borrows from Greek and Roman mythology. There's Norse mythology 521 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: in there, Germanic folklore, medieval romance. They're also European fairy tales. Also, 522 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: Santa Claus shows up at one point, which nice apparently J. R. R. 523 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: Tolkien very much disagreed with. That might be more than 524 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: incle hears he's talking about. Yeah, so I do think 525 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: that this kitchen sync approach to world building is a 526 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: big part of the series appeal right now. I can't 527 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: speak for C. S. Lewis the theologian, but C. S. 528 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: Lewis the artist clearly knew that if you want to 529 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: communicate something true to the most people possible, then your 530 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: best bet is to weave it into a story that's 531 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: really universal. 532 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: Which makes sense and actually speaking of things that are 533 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 2: universally enjoyed, what do you say we start today's fact off? 534 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: Yes, let's do it. 535 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: Did you know that CS Lewis shares his death date 536 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: with not one, but two other highly influential figures. You've 537 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: got Alvius Huxley, who wrote Brave New World, of course, 538 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 2: and the thirty fifth US President, John F. Kennedy. All 539 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: three men died on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, 540 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 2: and as you might expect the deaths of those two 541 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: British authors were overshadowed by the jfk assassination and initially 542 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: received very little attention in the press. 543 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is wild to think that C. S. Lewis 544 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: overlapsed in time with Kennedy. Yeah, like I do not 545 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: think about them in the same time period. 546 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 2: I'm the same way. 547 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: Okay, So here's one. Despite their differences, Lewis nominated J. R. R. 548 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: Tolkien for the nineteen sixty one Nobel Prize for Literature, 549 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 1: but according to the BBC, it was rejected because the 550 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: Nobel Committee felt that Tolkien's work quote has not in 551 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: any way measured up to storytelling of the highest quality. 552 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: Oh that is rough, And I don't mean to ruin 553 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 2: our chances of winning the Nobel Prize for podcasting. And 554 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: I think they're talking about one of those maybe, But 555 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: I got to say that is not a great decision. No, 556 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: all right, Well we're on the subject of Lewis and Tolkien. 557 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: Here's one thing they could agree on. They absolutely hated 558 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. And this is true. 559 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: They actually saw together in the theater. That's so funny 560 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: to it's amazing, I know. And as fantasy buffs, they 561 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: took issue with how the Dwarves were depicted on the screen, so, 562 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 2: as Lewis put it later, the movie Dwarves had quote bloated, drunken, 563 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: low comedy faces. She went on to say that Dwarfs 564 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 2: ought to be ugly, of course, but not in that way. 565 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: I don't know what he was thinking. High comedy, Yeah, yeah, exactly. 566 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 3: Now. 567 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: As for Tolkien, he agreed that the Dwarves had been 568 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: done a disservice by Disney, and furthermore, he despised the 569 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: idea of watering down fairytale concepts, calling Disney's work hopelessly 570 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 2: corrupted and vulgar. So I really don't think they gave 571 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: it high marks. 572 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I wouldn't have thought of them as 573 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: Dwarf purists, but I guess they are. So. For my 574 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: next fact, I want to mention Lewis's wife, Joy Davidmanton. 575 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: They were only married for a few years towards the 576 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: end of Lewis's life before she died of cancer, and 577 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: she was a really interesting figure in her own right. 578 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: She was born in New York City, the daughter of 579 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: Jewish immigrants, and she was both a musical and academic prodigy. 580 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: She read Lewis's books when she was in school and 581 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: then began writing herself, and after she separated from her 582 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: first husband in the late nineteen forties, she struck up 583 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: a correspondence with Lewis, with whom she had shared a 584 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: mutual friend. They finally met in person in nineteen fifty 585 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: two when david Min traveled to the UK to work 586 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: on a book about the Ten Commandments, and eventually she 587 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: settled there with her two sons, hoping to keep them 588 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: away from her ex, and Lewis, as he's kind of 589 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: wont to do, decides to support them financially. The couple 590 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: married when Davidson's visa expired, and Lewis really seemed to 591 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: think he was just doing this to help a friend. 592 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: But later, when david Min was diagnosed with cancer, the 593 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: relationship deepened, and after her death, Lewis published a memoir 594 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: called A Grief Observed, in which she reflects on their 595 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: love and how much her loss shook his faith. 596 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 2: Wow, that's sad, but you know also lovely all right. 597 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: For our final fact, you remember how Lewis gave away 598 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 2: the royalties from all of his books. Well, he also 599 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: didn't think that his work would be worth much in 600 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: the future. In fact, he once advised a fan not 601 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: to invest too much in a first edition of The 602 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: Screw Tape Letters, saying that they shouldn't pay more than 603 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 2: half the original price because it was a used copy. 604 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: And so, of course he was wrong about all of this. 605 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: His books have sold over one hundred million copies, including 606 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 2: translations in over thirty different languages, and that first edition 607 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: is worth many thousands of dollars today, So he definitely 608 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: underestimated himself. 609 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: That is incredible. Well, I think, well, we've had a 610 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: lot of good facts here, but I think the snow 611 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: white fact and the fact that these two famous authors 612 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: were increasingly annoyed at a Disney movie is the best 613 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: thing I've heard all week. So it definitely gets the trophy. 614 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 615 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Well, that does it for today's episode of Part Time Genius. 616 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: But before you go, I'm sure you've heard us mentioned. 617 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: We have a hotline where listeners call in and suggest 618 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: ideas for the show. Sometimes they ask questions or anything else, 619 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: and I want to share this incredible message we got 620 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: recently from a listener named Christie. 621 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 3: Hi, my name is Christy. I promised there's a fun 622 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 3: fact in this, but I also have the trauma dump. 623 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: It's the one year anniversary of my mom's death. For 624 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 3: two weeks before she died, she was in a coma 625 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 3: and they thought that she was possibly able to hear us, 626 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 3: but they couldn't confirm anything. So we had been playing 627 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 3: music for her, and it was like music she liked 628 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 3: and for contact. My parents met at a poison concert, 629 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 3: so it's not like hospital music really, but we could tell. 630 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,719 Speaker 3: And she was sleeping because her heart rate would change, 631 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: and so she fell asleep, and I was like, I 632 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 3: don't want her listening to like poison. How she's think. 633 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 3: I just put on the podcast that I listened to 634 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 3: when I'm going to sleep, which is your podcast. My 635 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 3: mom loved cats, so I put on your Cat episode 636 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 3: and immediately her eyes shot open, which did not happen 637 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 3: very often. I got kind of freaked out. I told 638 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 3: the nurse to turn the lights off. I thought the 639 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: lights were bothering her. That didn't make her close her eyes, 640 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 3: So I was like, do you think just doesn't like 641 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: the podcast? So we turned it off and immediately closed 642 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 3: her eyes and heart rate went back to sleep. So 643 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: the last thing my mom ever communicated to us was 644 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 3: that she wasn't, but your podcast is the reason that 645 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 3: we were able to find out that she could impact 646 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 3: hear us and I am still a big fan, so 647 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 3: thank you. 648 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: That's pretty fantastic. I love that so much. You know, 649 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: it definitely took a turn, but the kind of turns 650 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: with the humor that I would love to hear from 651 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: our listeners, that is terrific. 652 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: Christy, yes, absolutely, And for fans and non fans alike, 653 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: like Christie's mom, if you'd like to leave us a message, 654 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: you can give us a call at three O two 655 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: four oh five five nine two five. You can email 656 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: us at high Geniuses at gmail dot com, or find 657 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: us on Instagram and blue Sky at part Time Genius. 658 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 1: We will be back next week, but in the meantime, 659 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary, and myself, thank you so 660 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: much for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of 661 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. It is hosted by my good pal 662 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,919 Speaker 1: Will Pearson, who I've known for almost three decades now. 663 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 1: That is insane to me. I'm the utter co host, 664 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: Mangeshatikular aka Mango. Our producer is Mary Phillips Sandy. She's 665 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: actually a super pretty, so I'm going to fix that 666 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: in post. Our writer is Gabe Lucier, who I've also 667 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,959 Speaker 1: known for like a decade at this point, maybe more. 668 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is in the booth. He is always dressed up, 669 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: always cheering us on, and always ready to hit record 670 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: and then mix the show after he does a great job. 671 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: I also want to shout out the executive producers from 672 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: iHeart my good pals Katrina and Norvel and Ali Perry. 673 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: We have social media support from Calypso Rallis. If you 674 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: like our videos. That is all Calypso's handiwork for more 675 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 676 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: or tune in wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 677 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: That's it from us here at Part Time Genius. Thank 678 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: you so much for listening.