Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like
Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information
Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success.
Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us
Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get
Speaker 1: this started. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the
Speaker 1: Market Disruptors podcast. Today I am sitting down with David Silver.
Speaker 1: He's the securities fraud and investment loss attorney. He represents
Speaker 1: clients who have lost money bendy fraud, at etcetera. He's
Speaker 1: not a couple of really big cases that we get into.
Speaker 1: One is this big sim swapping that has been a
Speaker 1: big problem. People are getting their cryptocurrencies hacked into install
Speaker 1: in because of this, and so we talk about sim swapping,
Speaker 1: what the case is looking like. We get into how
Speaker 1: you can protect yourself from sim swapping if it does
Speaker 1: happen to you, what you should do, And we also
Speaker 1: get into some other stuff with coin base and the
Speaker 1: Burke Versus coin based case, talking about the Bitcoin cash
Speaker 1: fork and what happened there, as well as a bunch
Speaker 1: of other legal issues that you should be aware of
Speaker 1: ramifications that you may have if you've had a loss,
Speaker 1: and so much more good stuff. Let's go ahead and
Speaker 1: just jump right into it with David. All Right, everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome back to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today,
Speaker 1: I am sitting down with David Silver and he's an
Speaker 1: attorney working on the securities fraud, investment loss, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And um it's h He's got a couple of exciting
Speaker 1: things that he's working on we want to talk about.
Speaker 1: So let's just go ahead and just jump right into it. Hey, David,
Speaker 1: Hey Mark, how are you. Hey? I'm doing good. Thanks,
Speaker 1: Thanks for taking the time to come on. Um, I
Speaker 1: know we've worked together a little bit, kind of had
Speaker 1: a relationship for a while, but uh, really just kind
Speaker 1: of excited to talk to you and hear about some
Speaker 1: of the bigger stuff that's going on in the market
Speaker 1: today that people should be aware of. But for a
Speaker 1: little bit of background, why don't you just kind of
Speaker 1: tell everybody who you are, where you're from, and how
Speaker 1: you got to crypto, what you're doing. Sure, my name
Speaker 1: is David Silver, I'm a founding partner or at Silver Miller.
Speaker 1: Um I got to crypto like most people accidentally. Um.
Speaker 1: I was sitting in a bar in two thousand and
Speaker 1: twelve in Utah and some guy was trying to impress.
Speaker 1: We were on a board of directors for a philanthropical
Speaker 1: organization and some guy was trying to impress the other
Speaker 1: four guys at the table and started talking about bitcoin
Speaker 1: and the US. The four of us kind of did
Speaker 1: what everyone did, especially back then. We shook our heads.
Speaker 1: We were like, this is nothing, I mean, come on,
Speaker 1: and he took all of our cell phones and he
Speaker 1: gave us And at the time I thought he gave
Speaker 1: us all the equal amount of bitcoin, but he gave
Speaker 1: me five bitcoin. He opened up a coin based account
Speaker 1: of gave me five bitcoin in two thousand twelve, which
Speaker 1: at the time was worth about two hundred bucks. So
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, cool, some guya gave me a
Speaker 1: thousand bucks. He's going to jail. I'm never gonna touch
Speaker 1: this stuff. I've never got anything to do with it.
Speaker 1: And then I ended up doing a case for someone
Speaker 1: about crypto against a company called Crypsy into that some
Speaker 1: fifteen and then when the ship hit the fan in
Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen, I logged back into that account, the
Speaker 1: coin based account for the first time in about five years,
Speaker 1: and those five bitcoin were worth about a hundred and
Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars. I was like, I was like, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: And the guy never went to jail, which was a
Speaker 1: good side. Um. It turns out that the other four
Speaker 1: guys at the table, he only gave them one bitcoin
Speaker 1: each and he was trying to impress me, and I
Speaker 1: thank him. At work, I sent them some very nice
Speaker 1: follows of wine when things were peaking. I still hold
Speaker 1: those five bitcoins, so I while I'm not necessarily a
Speaker 1: I have never I can honestly say I have never
Speaker 1: bought a cryptocurrency. I have only received them. So I
Speaker 1: still I guess if by accident, I'm a bitcoin maximalist
Speaker 1: because I basically hold bitcoin through my lawsuits. I do
Speaker 1: now hold others by almost what I would call accident
Speaker 1: or you know, the malfians of others, because I do
Speaker 1: take paim in. You know, I do take payment and
Speaker 1: contingency fee. I represent lots of people. Some of my
Speaker 1: big loss suits are I've got the only class action
Speaker 1: against coin base. Uh that's called like delve coin Base.
Speaker 1: I've got a big case against I've got a couple
Speaker 1: of big cases against cracking. The biggest one relates to
Speaker 1: a flash crash in May two thousand seventeen. Got it's
Speaker 1: been a while now, May two thousand seventeen, when the
Speaker 1: price of Eve went from nine to twenty six over
Speaker 1: about two hours. That case is actually set to be
Speaker 1: tried soon. I got some class actions. I was part
Speaker 1: of originally the class action against Teza's I've got the
Speaker 1: class action against Gigawatt to connect one Coin, Nano Monkey Capital,
Speaker 1: and I guess we're gonna talk about today. I also
Speaker 1: do a lot of SIM swapping cases. I got about
Speaker 1: forty SIM swapping cases where people cell phones are hija
Speaker 1: act in one one way or another and they lose
Speaker 1: a lot of their crypto. Yeah. Wow, that's a that's
Speaker 1: a lot of cases. You sound like a pretty busy guy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This is good for me, it's bad for other people.
Speaker 1: Yeah right. Yeah. So I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: SIM swapping because that's a hot topic and and it
Speaker 1: really relates to a lot of people. We should all
Speaker 1: be aware of it because it's a major security issue
Speaker 1: for sure. Um, but just kind of overall, Um, it
Speaker 1: seems like, I mean, with a lot of these cases
Speaker 1: that you mentioned, you know, with the flash crash for example.
Speaker 1: I mean really it's about um holding these businesses, whether
Speaker 1: they're exchanges or whatever, accountable for what they're doing, right,
Speaker 1: I mean that kind of sums it up so um.
Speaker 1: In in the cracking flash cash for example, people were
Speaker 1: uh subject to losses because they couldn't get in and
Speaker 1: sell their coins or whatever. Um, and so holding them accountable. Right.
Speaker 1: So basically, and you know mine, I'll share my screen
Speaker 1: for a second. Um, So basically we're gonna walk through.
Speaker 1: Just make sure I got the right one which who
Speaker 1: which screen of my sharing? I see? Yeah, I see,
Speaker 1: I see your SIM swap fraud. Um. So this is
Speaker 1: a podcast f So for the podcast, I'll go ahead
Speaker 1: and a link to this uh link to this image
Speaker 1: for you guys. Yeah. So basically the image is showing,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the walking through for whether sim swap
Speaker 1: is and sim swapping effectively. Um. There's I have my telephone,
Speaker 1: I have my cell phone service with a T and
Speaker 1: T and all right, about one o'clock in the morning
Speaker 1: on a Friday night, SIM swappers will call a T
Speaker 1: and T and they will sim swap and they will
Speaker 1: ask for a T and T to swap the SIM
Speaker 1: card from my iPhone to another phone, and effectively what
Speaker 1: ends up happening is my phone I lose the network
Speaker 1: access to a T and T and the hacker gets
Speaker 1: to take over the network access on their phone, So
Speaker 1: all of my phone calls, my text messages, everything goes
Speaker 1: to the hackers phone instead of mind is that like
Speaker 1: porting your number over? It's so there are two types
Speaker 1: of There are two types of hacks. The porting is
Speaker 1: a little more complicated and hackers have stayed away from it.
Speaker 1: About two three years ago, it was more popular for
Speaker 1: the hackers to port your number, but porting takes a
Speaker 1: day or two. The SIM swap is instantaneous, so they
Speaker 1: actually moved to the SIM swapping over the SIM over
Speaker 1: the porting. Uh. They're actually after the consensus in May
Speaker 1: of two thousand nineteen, the last main consensus in New York.
Speaker 1: Sim porting on Verizon became a problem again. And there
Speaker 1: are a lot of UH, simports, but for the most
Speaker 1: part right now, where we're seeing or sims swaps, not
Speaker 1: some imports alright, So they're they're effectively the same, I mean,
Speaker 1: the same outcome and the same risk to the user.
Speaker 1: It's the same risk to the user, you actually lose
Speaker 1: your cell phone number on the sim port, so that
Speaker 1: usually they'll move it from like a T and T
Speaker 1: to a smaller provider and it comes more complicated. Uh,
Speaker 1: with a SIMS swap. The moment you realize you've been swapped,
Speaker 1: you can walk into an a T and T store
Speaker 1: and they can fix it instantaneously. Unfortunately, the hackers are
Speaker 1: so good it takes them about an hour to clean
Speaker 1: out all of your email and all of your crypto accounts. Literally,
Speaker 1: we've seen it as quickly as six minutes. So let's
Speaker 1: so let's walk through that. So, um, the hacker gets
Speaker 1: into a T and T S database or convinces a
Speaker 1: store employee to swap over the sim for example, and
Speaker 1: now they have access to my phone, uh, text messages,
Speaker 1: et cetera. And then what do they do with that?
Speaker 1: So what ends up happening is when the hacker gets
Speaker 1: access to your phone, a lot of your accounts and
Speaker 1: we found especially your Gmail accounts and your iCloud accounts
Speaker 1: are being are able to be reset on two factor
Speaker 1: authentication through SMS confirmation. So what the hacker does is
Speaker 1: he logs into your Gmail clicks I forgot my password.
Speaker 1: Then Gmail will send him an SMS two factor authentication
Speaker 1: back to the cell phone, which the hacker now controls.
Speaker 1: They'll reset your Gmail account and then use your Gmail account.
Speaker 1: He'll look for what emails you're getting. They'll look for,
Speaker 1: you know, if you have a coin based account, you know,
Speaker 1: he'll know you have a coin based will go the
Speaker 1: coin base, will then try and reset your coin base.
Speaker 1: The problem we've seen is a lot of people think
Speaker 1: they're protected because they have two factor authentication with Google
Speaker 1: authenticator or author and it turns out most people's accounts,
Speaker 1: even the Google authenticator or the author are still tied
Speaker 1: as back up too there to SMS authentication and can
Speaker 1: be reset by having control of the cell phone. Hmm.
Speaker 1: And the second thing is a lot of people on
Speaker 1: their Gmail account keep their seed information so they can
Speaker 1: reset accounts, or they keep there, or they keep their
Speaker 1: backup for their authie or they're Authie or their Google
Speaker 1: authenticator on their Gmail or eye cloud and i Cloud
Speaker 1: for instance. You can't even un attached two factor authentication
Speaker 1: with SMS right now, It's virtually impossible. Anyone who keeps
Speaker 1: anything store on eye cloud is the easiest hack out there. Mhmm, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1: I know, I know with with Gmail, it does obviously
Speaker 1: keeps your phone number as well. Um, what about you know,
Speaker 1: what about people that have their two factor authentication on
Speaker 1: a like a separate device, so it's not on their phone.
Speaker 1: Are you saying that that may not adder because if
Speaker 1: they get access to their phone number, they might not
Speaker 1: even need to have access to the to f A.
Speaker 1: So let's use something like treasure, you know where Treaser
Speaker 1: is its own backup. There are a lot of people
Speaker 1: who keep their seed information in their email, right and
Speaker 1: some of the so in some of the lawsuits at
Speaker 1: and T, T Mobile, Verizon, they're blaming the user for
Speaker 1: not securing their crypto assets to the best of their ability.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it is a defense. So in theory,
Speaker 1: you should be protected if you're you know, third party
Speaker 1: secure wallet is truly secure. Unfortunately, what the hackers have
Speaker 1: found is they are most people use a backup for
Speaker 1: their security. That backup is usually stored in their email,
Speaker 1: whether it be their Gmail or their eye cloud. And
Speaker 1: they come in and they sit and they basically come
Speaker 1: in and they get through the back door of the
Speaker 1: security measure because most people are lazy and keep everything
Speaker 1: in their email accout right. So yeah, always a bad
Speaker 1: idea to keep your seed in your computer anywhere. I
Speaker 1: think we saw Ian Billina said that he kept his
Speaker 1: in his ever note account, which I use every note
Speaker 1: like crazy. Um, I think if you put it in
Speaker 1: Google Drive or uh job box, anywhere that's digital, you
Speaker 1: have the risk of a hacker getting access to that. So,
Speaker 1: um I keeping your backup seed on paper is something
Speaker 1: that I've always done, but I am concerned. Um as
Speaker 1: you say, like if they get access to the email
Speaker 1: that you log into your exchange with and then they're
Speaker 1: able to reset your exchange with just your cell phone
Speaker 1: number and not needing the two f a. Um. So
Speaker 1: here's where you know a lot of people have a
Speaker 1: false sense of security. Where do they use coin based cracking, Gemini,
Speaker 1: bit Trux coloniacs. They'll think that they're safe because they're
Speaker 1: using Google two factor authentication or off the the log
Speaker 1: into those as their second factor. So on coin based
Speaker 1: or cry can you can use SMS two factory authentication.
Speaker 1: If you're using SMS and your phones compromise, you're gonna
Speaker 1: be compromised, right you use Google authenticator or off the
Speaker 1: you can still be compromised if the hacker. The first
Speaker 1: thing the hacker looks for is the Google Authenticator or
Speaker 1: AF the emails in your Gmail account so they are
Speaker 1: able to replicate out of your If they can, they
Speaker 1: will change that and they will immediately then go after
Speaker 1: your exchange accounts and they are and they have been
Speaker 1: quite successful at it. Interesting, So that frames up the
Speaker 1: let's that frames up the overall issue. Um, the big
Speaker 1: one that's super popular right now. I know you said
Speaker 1: you have thirty or so that you're working on. But
Speaker 1: the one that's really taken kind of media headlines is
Speaker 1: this Turpin versus A T and T um. Some of
Speaker 1: that looks like, I mean, it came out. I think
Speaker 1: maybe they brought it up where like actually a T
Speaker 1: and T kind of has a history of being hacked
Speaker 1: and people getting access to it. Is that kind of
Speaker 1: what framed it up? And are they trying to show
Speaker 1: like negligence on A T and T s part there?
Speaker 1: So the problem with the A T and T and
Speaker 1: Michael Turpin's case, and I you know, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day talking about Michael's case, I am not
Speaker 1: Michael's lawyer. I don't represent Michael. I have no inside
Speaker 1: knowledge about Michael's case. I want to make that clear.
Speaker 1: Um I did said, I did sit next to Michael
Speaker 1: at consensus on the panel where we both talked about
Speaker 1: sim swapping cases. But effectively, what makes Michael's case unique
Speaker 1: is that Michael had his second fact, he had an
Speaker 1: enhanced security pen for his A T and T account.
Speaker 1: So most people when they log into when they go
Speaker 1: there with an A T and T store, they get
Speaker 1: a four to Japan. Michael had a six or eight
Speaker 1: to Japan. I personally had a six or eight to Japan,
Speaker 1: and I also was a victim of sim swapping. Uh
Speaker 1: So A T and T is offering you an enhanced
Speaker 1: mechanism to uh secure your account because they are aware
Speaker 1: this is a problem. So ironically, what ends up happening
Speaker 1: is that after we have these type of you know,
Speaker 1: false sense of security measures, a T and T employee
Speaker 1: simply bypassed your security when someone calls in and anyone
Speaker 1: can bypass by, you know, whether it's telling your birthday
Speaker 1: or giving some other personal information. Now we've learned through
Speaker 1: Michael's lawsuit and other criminal indictments that A T and
Speaker 1: T employees or contractors, along with Horizon and T Mobile,
Speaker 1: we're selling the consumer protected information that was used to
Speaker 1: access the accounts. So again, you know, there's there's federal
Speaker 1: law play here, state law play here, and there's also
Speaker 1: the terms of service of a T and T a
Speaker 1: play here, because a T and T when you sign
Speaker 1: up with them. And this is just about Michael's case,
Speaker 1: but this is the same for any major carrier, not
Speaker 1: just talking about Michael's case exclusively. You waive your rights
Speaker 1: to a class action. How many people have been hurt
Speaker 1: unlike Michael. So Michael lost about twenty four million dollars
Speaker 1: and tokens at the peak of the market. Um, now
Speaker 1: he's doing punitive damages of an extra two hundred million dollars. Really,
Speaker 1: the only people who get punitive damages are on TV.
Speaker 1: You've ever you very rarely see that in real life. Um.
Speaker 1: But what's interesting here is of even like the thirty
Speaker 1: and forty people I represent, those are the people who
Speaker 1: have damages in excess of twenty fifty hundred thousand, a million,
Speaker 1: two million dollars and damages. I speak to so many
Speaker 1: people who have been hit and compromised, who lost half
Speaker 1: a bitcoin, you know, a thousand dollars worth of ripple
Speaker 1: because there's a class action waiver. None of those people
Speaker 1: are able to get representation by you know, a contingency
Speaker 1: fee lawyer. I mean I get yelled and screamed out
Speaker 1: all the why won't you take my case? This is horrible.
Speaker 1: I've got this, I've got that. So for every case
Speaker 1: I do take, I have to turn down four or five.
Speaker 1: But the hackers are doing in mass and then are
Speaker 1: successful on a couple like Turpin, like you know some
Speaker 1: of my clients. But for everyone, they're successful, and they
Speaker 1: also probably fail on five to ten. You know, people
Speaker 1: they're hacking, But what do they do. They walk around Consensus,
Speaker 1: They walk around every cryptoconference. They take everyone's business cards.
Speaker 1: Your business card has your email on it, your cell
Speaker 1: phone number on it, your name on it. Even if
Speaker 1: they're not working with insiders, they try. They can, some
Speaker 1: of them socially engineered backwards. But they are looking for
Speaker 1: you know, most people at Consensus are trying to sound
Speaker 1: more important than they are, so they're gonna be like
Speaker 1: I hold this token and I use coin base, I
Speaker 1: do X, I have my money here. And for the hackers,
Speaker 1: it's just you know, sometimes people are the Rome Wars enemies.
Speaker 1: They are trying to show off, they're trying to do things,
Speaker 1: and they're losing their own money. Yeah, wow, how how
Speaker 1: how easy that could be once you get that that
Speaker 1: key information, I can see that. Um, it's interesting you
Speaker 1: talk about how a T and T gives you an
Speaker 1: extra security measure, um, which which tricks you into or
Speaker 1: kind of gives you this false sense of security. I guess, um,
Speaker 1: when you have that that extra measures that you've put
Speaker 1: in place, showing that you have been proactive to be
Speaker 1: more secure, does that put more damage or claim unto them?
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, the answer is called comparative negligence. And while
Speaker 1: every while we're all trying to get a T and
Speaker 1: T to be fully responsible, a T and T s
Speaker 1: defense and I'm not saying I agree with it, but
Speaker 1: their defenses. They're not an insurance company for you for
Speaker 1: your assets. And then they are not a and they're
Speaker 1: not a security company for you for your assets. So
Speaker 1: they're not responsible. First, let's say the fact that you
Speaker 1: turned around decided to put your coins on an exchange
Speaker 1: that you know had extra security measures that you yourself
Speaker 1: did not avail yourself to. Yeah, they're responsible. You're responsible
Speaker 1: because there's a third party intervening act i e. That
Speaker 1: hacker of the criminal, and you're responsible because you yourself
Speaker 1: had your seat information for your treasure wallet in your
Speaker 1: Gmail account, right. You know your Gmail account wasn't backed
Speaker 1: up with two factor authentication. You could have stopped them
Speaker 1: getting your access. But the simpswap itself is the first
Speaker 1: step of many steps, and if you were taking better
Speaker 1: protection in steps two, three, and four, you would have
Speaker 1: lost any money. Yeah, I was curious. I'm with T Mobile. Um,
Speaker 1: it seems like it's all around a T and T.
Speaker 1: But you did mention there's stuff going on in T
Speaker 1: Mobile when this had gotten hot, and maybe back in
Speaker 1: they had contacted me and said, hey, we can lock
Speaker 1: your account. Do you want to like enable this where, um,
Speaker 1: you know no what he can change it unless you
Speaker 1: come into the store. I said yes, But I think
Speaker 1: I've heard of the case where even people had done
Speaker 1: that but it still was getting swapped. Is that? Yes?
Speaker 1: So the reason why people to talk about Turpin Turpins
Speaker 1: and federal court in California, it's public. My forty cases
Speaker 1: are all in arbitration and not public, So that's why
Speaker 1: those are all getting talked about, right, now I would
Speaker 1: say mostly I the large percentage of people I speak
Speaker 1: to are A T and T. The next is T Mobile,
Speaker 1: the next is Horizon, and last is Sprint. I guess
Speaker 1: since they're gonna be emerging soon, Sprint and T Mobile
Speaker 1: will be one. Yeah. Wow, Yeah, I could see how
Speaker 1: they could say. I mean, hey, we can't be responsible
Speaker 1: for your whole life. I mean, we can be responsible
Speaker 1: for damages to your cell phone, but not twenty five
Speaker 1: million dollars in in crypto. Um. I kind of get that.
Speaker 1: But I mean, given their size and negligence, I guess something.
Speaker 1: I mean, you wouldn't be taking these cases on if
Speaker 1: you didn't think there was an outcome coming. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: let's think it back, because you're using a word a
Speaker 1: lot of people use when they call me up. They're like, well,
Speaker 1: A T T is negligent and what they did, they're
Speaker 1: responsible there. The problem is, when you sign your cell
Speaker 1: phone contract, it's basically like signing a mortgage. It's probably
Speaker 1: thirty pages long their terms and conditions. You actually specifically
Speaker 1: agree that they're not responsible for any negligence on your account.
Speaker 1: You also specifically agree that your damages are limited, so
Speaker 1: you know it's When I tell people, you know, what
Speaker 1: the value of their cases are worth, they're like, well,
Speaker 1: that's not fair, and I'm like, well, I understand that,
Speaker 1: but I don't make the law. You know. You you know,
Speaker 1: you know, be very like I get to look at
Speaker 1: your Twitter account, you know, nowadays, and I'm like, look,
Speaker 1: all the people that you want to vote for, you
Speaker 1: want to have an office, those are the people who
Speaker 1: are protecting the big companies, not you. You know, if
Speaker 1: you want to vote with your pocket book, then you
Speaker 1: know you should vote for people who want to give
Speaker 1: you access to the courts. You know. You may not
Speaker 1: like liberal Democrats for instance, like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders,
Speaker 1: but they are the ones who would allow you to sue.
Speaker 1: You know, if you vote for, you know, a Republican,
Speaker 1: you know, Republicans tend to say you shouldn't have access
Speaker 1: to courts. And I'm not meaning to make this political
Speaker 1: either way. I'm just saying that, you know, you can't
Speaker 1: have the both ways. You can't say that the terms
Speaker 1: of conditions don't matter, the law doesn't matter. I got robbed.
Speaker 1: I want my money back, you know. And it's especially
Speaker 1: we're in the crypto community. We have so many libertarians
Speaker 1: and anarchists. You know, it's one of my most favorite
Speaker 1: quotes that I've had in my path. Everyone's an anarchist
Speaker 1: until they lose their money. Then they want a lawyer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true, and and uh I agree with that statement.
Speaker 1: I I tend to fall on that that side of
Speaker 1: the of the line, I guess. But I'm I'm willing
Speaker 1: to accept that responsibility. You know, I grew up. Um
Speaker 1: I see, uh, you know all these personal injury cases
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I see it's like people access
Speaker 1: to land and they want to be able to go
Speaker 1: do these things, and but then they get hurt there
Speaker 1: and then they want somebody responsible. So it's like, we
Speaker 1: want the freedom, but we don't want to we don't
Speaker 1: want the responsibility that comes with the freedom, right. I
Speaker 1: guess that's kind of what you're saying. Well, it's think
Speaker 1: of someone who you know, wants to jump out of
Speaker 1: a plane and have a parachute on. You know, statistically
Speaker 1: you're pretty safe if the parachute works and you know
Speaker 1: how the skydive. But now you decide to take it
Speaker 1: one step further. You want to jump off of a
Speaker 1: bridge with a with a skydiving pack on your because
Speaker 1: you think you're an outdoor adventure of you know, sportsman,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, when you know something goes
Speaker 1: wrong because you only you're supposed to have twenty tho
Speaker 1: fet you only have five thousand feet. You want to
Speaker 1: see the guy who told you about going on the
Speaker 1: bridge here. If your money was at you know, Morgan
Speaker 1: Stanley Wells, far Ago, Goldman Sacks and your cell phone
Speaker 1: was swapped, the hacker would take three days to get
Speaker 1: your money and you would get your money back. The
Speaker 1: fact that it's crypto and it happens instant enviously is
Speaker 1: the problem. For instance, I'll give another great example. A
Speaker 1: lot of clients who lost their money in the US
Speaker 1: on bit max. Use bit max and when you're in US,
Speaker 1: so now they're like, well, I want my money back.
Speaker 1: Someone stole my money. Well where is your money? Well,
Speaker 1: I can't give you that information. May mean you can't
Speaker 1: give me that information, Well, it's it's it was I
Speaker 1: was using bit max, you know, and bit max and
Speaker 1: the money was stolen. But what the email addressed were
Speaker 1: you using? How are you logging in? Well? I had
Speaker 1: a proton email account that you know, the hacker guy
Speaker 1: that I can't get back. Now. Well, if you can't
Speaker 1: prove your damages, you can't see And that's become an
Speaker 1: interesting twist in this, you know, just it's kind of
Speaker 1: like you know too, It's kind of like to mafios is.
Speaker 1: The first guy steals the money, the second guy steals
Speaker 1: the money from the first guy. The first guy wants
Speaker 1: to go to the cops. The cops say, where did
Speaker 1: you get the money? It goes, well, I stole it
Speaker 1: from individual number one. You know. It's it's a real
Speaker 1: problem because this doesn't happen even on these halts. It
Speaker 1: they don't get your legacy bank accounts for that. And
Speaker 1: you know, you got to conchoose your poisons. And that's
Speaker 1: part of the telecoms defenses. If you were more secure,
Speaker 1: if you put your money in the banks, none of
Speaker 1: this would happen to you. Yeah, use crypto, live by crypto. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes sense. I'm curious, Um, I'm curious. You're talking
Speaker 1: about like proving this, so, like I would imagine there
Speaker 1: has to be some proof that there was damages. I
Speaker 1: saw in Turpin's case, for example, he had to show
Speaker 1: that proved that the sim swap led to loss. So
Speaker 1: I've been hacked. I had a I had a hot wallet,
Speaker 1: an app on my phone, and one day I logged
Speaker 1: in and all my money was gone. But how can
Speaker 1: I prove that was hacked? All you see is a
Speaker 1: is a debit out of the account. Again, I still
Speaker 1: to this day don't know how that happened. I have
Speaker 1: really good security and it was just gone. How do
Speaker 1: I prove that was stolen and hacked? And I didn't
Speaker 1: just transfer it somewhere. So that's another good reason why
Speaker 1: p bull you know, aren't getting a hundred cents on
Speaker 1: their dollar in these cases because that is virtually impossible
Speaker 1: to prove given the nature. So what we've some sort
Speaker 1: of things that we're doing. We do what we call
Speaker 1: it an anatomy of the hack. We show how the
Speaker 1: hacker gets in instantaneously goes hacks your accounts in you know,
Speaker 1: the US exchanges use the information from the I P
Speaker 1: addresses on the US exchanges, and there's just a mechanical way.
Speaker 1: But you're making a valid point, and points to telecoms
Speaker 1: are making. But how do we know that just wasn't you?
Speaker 1: Then you're not thinking it. I had a guy who
Speaker 1: claims he lost five million dollars, and when we kept
Speaker 1: having him for proof, he couldn't even provide the simple
Speaker 1: proof we asked for. I look him, I said, you know,
Speaker 1: we can't. If you can't prove the damages and you
Speaker 1: can't get me the lawyer you're a lawyer to believe
Speaker 1: that your damages are legitimate, I will never be able
Speaker 1: to convince the other side. I guess, um, if we
Speaker 1: could show that a T and T or whatever carrier
Speaker 1: did sup WoT the swift um sim unauthorized, and then
Speaker 1: you could see these uh you know, the trail of
Speaker 1: of of the Gmail or whatever, and then the accounts
Speaker 1: emptied out and it all happened within an hour. I
Speaker 1: guess that's kind of compelling. Yes, but it's also something
Speaker 1: you can fake nowadays. I couldn't fake. I couldn't fake
Speaker 1: a T and T having an unauthorized sim swab. Well, no,
Speaker 1: you couldn't, but you can do. You can get give
Speaker 1: me your personal information. I can call a T and
Speaker 1: T and say I am I'm Mark Morris, here's my number,
Speaker 1: and then you saw, I mean, and it's it's a legitimate.
Speaker 1: It's a legitimate, and started the telephone companies I'm not
Speaker 1: giving them a new defense that they've never heard of
Speaker 1: talking to you about this. This is something they're well
Speaker 1: aware of. And it's another reason why you know, it's
Speaker 1: hard to prove these cases. There's a reason why David
Speaker 1: Silver has most of them because you can only do
Speaker 1: this in math. To do this one off without people
Speaker 1: paying you is problematic. Yeah. So, um, then just real quick,
Speaker 1: I mean, since you've been seeing this so much, then
Speaker 1: kind of wrap up this talk. Um, what can the
Speaker 1: average person do to protect themselves against this one? You
Speaker 1: should be have enhanced security on your phone. You should
Speaker 1: tell with the carriers. You should have enhanced pins. You
Speaker 1: should know what it is. You should store those pins
Speaker 1: now in you're you know, email accounts. UH. Two. You
Speaker 1: should use second to two factor authentication with Google Authenticator
Speaker 1: and authe again not storing the reset account information or
Speaker 1: the information in your Gmail accounts. You should make sure
Speaker 1: your Gmail and your email accounts are secured by something
Speaker 1: other than SMS UH password protection. That's really the key thing.
Speaker 1: You don't want to use SMS for any form of
Speaker 1: your second factor authentication, and that's really the starting point.
Speaker 1: The other things are you shouldn't not leave your crypto
Speaker 1: on an exchange that is not protected. I'll use coin
Speaker 1: base for instance. You can now use coin based vault,
Speaker 1: which requires two email addresses and two days before money
Speaker 1: moves right. You can use bit tracks. You can white
Speaker 1: list and only allow certain I P s access to
Speaker 1: your account. There are measures, and if you have more
Speaker 1: than a hundred thousand, whatever the number in your mind,
Speaker 1: that's too much to lose. Those are extra security precautions
Speaker 1: you should be taken. And I'll say this, and I
Speaker 1: say it all the time. What exchange you use matters, um,
Speaker 1: so don't be don't be a fool, and you know,
Speaker 1: use exchanges that aren't in the US and aren't the
Speaker 1: more legitimate ones. I think it's also a good point
Speaker 1: that exchanges are not bank accounts, and um, they're not
Speaker 1: meant to be bank account They're not meant to secure
Speaker 1: and instore your coins. And some of them a as
Speaker 1: you mentioned like coin Base, does provide like a vault,
Speaker 1: which is pretty cool, but most exchanges are not bank accounts,
Speaker 1: are not meant to be that way. And you make
Speaker 1: an absolutely valid point that I want to reiterate, which
Speaker 1: is just the more money you have, the more serious
Speaker 1: you need to take your security and I got I
Speaker 1: got some swapped. I didn't lose I didn't lose money.
Speaker 1: My personal data was compromised if I didn't lose any crypto.
Speaker 1: And you know, at the end of the day, I
Speaker 1: creep most of my crypto on exchanges because if something
Speaker 1: goes wrong, I want to hold people accountable, and there
Speaker 1: are certain security measures that I take. I use coin
Speaker 1: based vault, and people say to me all the time,
Speaker 1: but David, you're a suing coin base, you're you're you
Speaker 1: say how bad they are? First of all, I would
Speaker 1: sue Goldman Sacks every day and twice on Sunday if
Speaker 1: I had legitimate cases against Goldman Sacks. What crypto exchanges
Speaker 1: were in two thousand, fourteen fifteen are not what they
Speaker 1: are today. I constantly praise Brian Armstrong and the winkle Bights,
Speaker 1: you know, for what they're doing, working with regulators and
Speaker 1: trying to transparent. And the more transparent and you know,
Speaker 1: the better these exchanges come become, the more likely it
Speaker 1: is the Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies go up and value
Speaker 1: and mainstream people will be able to use that because
Speaker 1: they feel secure about it. Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 1: So um as a as as as a builder in
Speaker 1: the space. So let's say that I'm running an exchange,
Speaker 1: or I have an app or some dapt that manages
Speaker 1: things like, um, what should I be if I'm a builder?
Speaker 1: What should we be aware of to keep ourselves out
Speaker 1: of trouble? I mean, I guess just making sure we
Speaker 1: were not negligent. I mean we do our best. I
Speaker 1: mean it seems like it's just kind of like a
Speaker 1: pretty dangerous space to be in. So there are people
Speaker 1: who have written interesting articles on you know, medium about
Speaker 1: people like themselves who are in this space who have
Speaker 1: been hacked and what they did wrong, and most of
Speaker 1: it boiled down to, uh, it was it do as
Speaker 1: I say, not as I do. The amount of laziness
Speaker 1: and protecting their crypto assets was staggering. Whether it was
Speaker 1: Turpin who's I mean, Michael had more you know I
Speaker 1: c O S tokens than probably anyone in the space. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, there are other people who have posted and
Speaker 1: talked about how yep they had Gmail accounts with you know,
Speaker 1: just SMS two factor authentication. I think people are learning.
Speaker 1: I think that people are starting to talk about this more.
Speaker 1: But it's you know, as much as you want to
Speaker 1: blame others. Especially in crypto where everything is somewhat masked
Speaker 1: and somewhat instantaneous, you are responsible for yourself, no one else.
Speaker 1: You know, it's your keys, your coins, it's your coins,
Speaker 1: your money. No one else is out there looking for you.
Speaker 1: They want to take it. Yeah. Yeah, And and one
Speaker 1: of the things that we love about bitcoin and cryptocurrencies
Speaker 1: is finality. Right, So when the transaction happens, it's final.
Speaker 1: But that works in two ways. It's bad. So UM,
Speaker 1: as a as a user of the ecosystem, as a
Speaker 1: user of coins, exchanges and things like that, Um, what
Speaker 1: kinds of things should I, um be aware of that
Speaker 1: might happen to me that that possibly I could have
Speaker 1: a claim on, right? I mean, so, um, I was
Speaker 1: on an exchange and you mentioned like, uh, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, I can't trade on it or obviously hacks
Speaker 1: are easy, right, But like, what are some other things
Speaker 1: that we might be seen or people might be aware of,
Speaker 1: have have happened to them that maybe they should think
Speaker 1: about having a claim on. So this and this is
Speaker 1: a nice segue to brokeby coin base that we were
Speaker 1: going to talk about, because brokeby coin Base is my news.
Speaker 1: It's my new favorite case of my new favorite case
Speaker 1: of the week. Um. Effectively, everyone should be talking about
Speaker 1: everyone in crypto should be talking about brokeby coin Base
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, this just changed
Speaker 1: the law. I mean it is cases caseflow has built
Speaker 1: one case to the time, and a court in California
Speaker 1: came out and just they said something crazy. They said
Speaker 1: that at the end of the day, crypto exchanges are
Speaker 1: responsible for maintaining functional marketplaces and dysfunctional. A dysfunctional marketplace
Speaker 1: is a liability for the exchange. What does that mean?
Speaker 1: So let's use a hypothetical situation. There's an exchange that
Speaker 1: has a flash crash and the price of bitcoins right
Speaker 1: now dropped from I know it's trading out right now
Speaker 1: twelve thousand bucks a couple within a couple hundred bucks
Speaker 1: of that. If the price of bitcoin on coin base
Speaker 1: went from twelve hundred to three and coin Base allowed
Speaker 1: training to go on but locked everyone out of their
Speaker 1: accounts except for insiders, I be insane that you know,
Speaker 1: they would say there's something wrong, but we're gonna allow
Speaker 1: people you know who have back to who are trading
Speaker 1: on who had professional institutional accounts to come in and
Speaker 1: buy everyone's, you know, sell orders that we're going to
Speaker 1: cascading effects. That would be a dysfunctional marketplace because the
Speaker 1: coin base would know something's wrong, they would allow that
Speaker 1: something wrong to continue, and they wouldn't stop the market.
Speaker 1: And what Burke said was they didn't make a judgment
Speaker 1: call about whether the bc H being sold at the time,
Speaker 1: whether that is the definition of a dysfunctional marketplace, because
Speaker 1: in that lawsuit, the accusation is that during the first
Speaker 1: couple of minutes of trading price fight, some people couldn't
Speaker 1: get in, some market orders replaced some warrant. The court
Speaker 1: didn't say that is by definition of dysfunctional marketplace. The
Speaker 1: court's tympically said, as it reads the law and as
Speaker 1: it believes, and it actually says it in the opinion,
Speaker 1: this is what we believe the California Supreme Court would decide.
Speaker 1: We are sitting because it's a federal court case. There's
Speaker 1: a federal court judge interpreting what California law would say,
Speaker 1: and it said that we believe the California Supreme Court
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe the cryptocurrency exchanges are responsible for maintaining functional marketplaces.
Speaker 1: By the way, that's what they sell. That's what they're
Speaker 1: advertising is look at Krakens advertising, coin bases advertising. Gemini
Speaker 1: is advertising. They are selling to you use our exchange.
Speaker 1: We are safe, we are secure, and we serve a
Speaker 1: functional marketplace. So that the word dysfunctional sounds a little confusing.
Speaker 1: I mean when you put it in those terms in
Speaker 1: your example, it sounds more insider kind of fraudulent activity,
Speaker 1: like hey, everyone's locked out, but are few people are
Speaker 1: able to take advantage of this market? Um. Dysfunctional to
Speaker 1: me sounds more like, um, something eltside of our control happens.
Speaker 1: So let's say, for example, bitcoin shoots from twelve thousand
Speaker 1: to twenty thousand, everybody jumps in to buy it, and
Speaker 1: it's just too much volume and and exchange hand and
Speaker 1: the and the site crashes and that's like a legitimate problem.
Speaker 1: Would that be considered dysfunctional or it's kind of like, hey,
Speaker 1: we're locking you out, but we're allowing you in, which
Speaker 1: is kind of more insider. So I think that's gonna
Speaker 1: be what the courts. And that's why I say case law.
Speaker 1: This didn't change the law. The laws builds one case
Speaker 1: at the time, which your jurisprudence. But what it says is,
Speaker 1: now we're gonna see what exactly you're asking. What is
Speaker 1: the line of dysfunctionality? Is it dysfunctional? If I put
Speaker 1: in in order and it takes point one second to
Speaker 1: go through, but the person behind me went through point
Speaker 1: in half of that time, the speed equal dysfunctionality, that's
Speaker 1: gonna be a lining. It's kind of like, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: using a real world example, um someone who It used
Speaker 1: to be that you were allowed to drinks before you drive.
Speaker 1: Now you're allowed one and a half drinks before you drive.
Speaker 1: The lines constantly shifting and people are becoming more liable.
Speaker 1: The McDonald's case where someone stilled hot coffee in their laps.
Speaker 1: Before that happened, wasn't if someone gave you a cup
Speaker 1: of coffee. It wasn't necessarily illegal for McDonald's to hand
Speaker 1: you a cup of coffee. And now you can get suit.
Speaker 1: Now McDonald's is still not illegal. It's still legal for
Speaker 1: them giving you a cup of coffee. But now if
Speaker 1: you're still it on yourself and it's degrees and you
Speaker 1: burn yourself, they're liable. Someone had to go to court
Speaker 1: and draw that line in that distinction. But if you
Speaker 1: pour a cup of coffee on your lap, it's only
Speaker 1: fifty degrees and you don't burn yourself. That's okay, people,
Speaker 1: We're learning where the lines are gonna be drawn. UM.
Speaker 1: I personally believe that if an exchange knows of a
Speaker 1: problem and those there's this dysfunction in their marketplace, they
Speaker 1: have an obligation to shut that down, not look at
Speaker 1: users and say, no, this was dysfunctional, but we're gonna
Speaker 1: allow it to go because we're crypto cryptocurrency exchange and
Speaker 1: there are no rules. Uh, turns out there are rules
Speaker 1: in crypto and I'm proud of this judge. I think
Speaker 1: it did a great job. Yeah, it makes sense. It
Speaker 1: makes sense. I you know, I would hate to see
Speaker 1: them being held responsible for things that were outside their control,
Speaker 1: but things that they could control and they allowed to
Speaker 1: go on. I mean, somebody has to be responsible that
Speaker 1: you have to run an honest business, right, So UM
Speaker 1: I get it from that perspective. So then overall, as
Speaker 1: a user in the ecosystem, UM, I guess at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, if I have um suffered damages
Speaker 1: that I believe are because of negligence or because of
Speaker 1: purposeful wrongdoing. Then then I potentially might have some recourse right,
Speaker 1: and then that's where someone will contact you. So yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of people reach out to me and about
Speaker 1: their cryptocurrency experiences, and the recourses is unique to each case.
Speaker 1: I very rarely do what I consider lost profit cases.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that no one's ever gonna win a
Speaker 1: loss profit case, but it's very hard. Most people who
Speaker 1: call me up saying I bought bitcoin and nine thousand,
Speaker 1: I was gonna sell it at thirteen thousand. Coin Base
Speaker 1: was swamped a couple of weeks ago, and they went
Speaker 1: down for a little bit when it hit like thirteen
Speaker 1: when it went from like seven thousand to thirteen thousand
Speaker 1: in a couple of days, and they were like, well,
Speaker 1: I was gonna sell that exact peak, and I wanted
Speaker 1: that exact price I wasn't able to And now it's
Speaker 1: back to nine thousand, and you know, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who feel that should be a case.
Speaker 1: Look this what brokeby coin Base said, Maybe that is
Speaker 1: a good case. I'm not saying that that's not a winner.
Speaker 1: But most of the cases I handled, we do our
Speaker 1: analysis on a cost basis out of pocket. How much
Speaker 1: money did you put in? How much money do you
Speaker 1: presently have? And we do our analysis based on that,
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, this isn't new technology,
Speaker 1: this is a new asset class. You know, it's some
Speaker 1: there is some true truth that there is some limited predictability.
Speaker 1: So um, you you you you, you take care of losses,
Speaker 1: but not lost opportunities, I guess would be a good
Speaker 1: way to something. Ask for lost opportunities. And somebody's in
Speaker 1: some of the lawsuits, but most of the complaints I've
Speaker 1: heard on exchange related matters or lost profit cases, someone
Speaker 1: magically knew when the peak was gonna be and they
Speaker 1: were gonna sell it the peak. Sure, alright, I know,
Speaker 1: we gotta start wrapping this up here. I'd like to
Speaker 1: just kind of ask you, though, where you sit, um
Speaker 1: in this whole ecosystem. So um, I wonder if maybe
Speaker 1: being an attorney gets you a little bit jaded where
Speaker 1: you start to see all the bad. I'm curious what
Speaker 1: you think about bitcoin overall and cryptocurrencies. I mean, are
Speaker 1: you are you a believer in bitcoin? Do you see
Speaker 1: the future um with that? Or are you still more
Speaker 1: of a skeptic and you see all the problems. Yeah, uh,
Speaker 1: I could I see this cryptocurrency to point out, I'm
Speaker 1: a believer in the technology. I'm a believer in cryptology.
Speaker 1: I'm a believer that this is moving in the right direction.
Speaker 1: But we're still at the same point of the Internet
Speaker 1: right now where everyone was just looking at porn and
Speaker 1: buying drugs. You know, we're building the more the more
Speaker 1: usable aspects, and when use cases are actually use cases
Speaker 1: is when crypto two point it will happen. I you,
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, you can spin a becuse
Speaker 1: all twelve or two thousand cryptocurrencies on the wheel, spin
Speaker 1: the wheel, and that's gonna be the one that's successful
Speaker 1: in the end. So you think bitcoin has as much
Speaker 1: of a chance as anyone else, Well, I think the
Speaker 1: leader in the house and the bigger the mode. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm a Wren Buffet fan. So the bigger the mode,
Speaker 1: the more likely you are to succeed. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. In the effect, the longer you've been around,
Speaker 1: the more likely you are to be around. Yeah, everyone's
Speaker 1: testing bitcoin more. There's more testing, there's more you know,
Speaker 1: people who are trying to show what bitcoin canny can't do.
Speaker 1: So I'm a believer in the space and the function
Speaker 1: aldi I believe. I went to all the conferences in
Speaker 1: sixteen and seventeen where everyone told me every I C
Speaker 1: O was going to change the world. I'm still waiting
Speaker 1: for the use cases. Until there's use case, there's really
Speaker 1: no reason why it's trading at these numbers. You don't
Speaker 1: think bitcoin has any use case at all today? I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean I would argue, like, obviously if you're in
Speaker 1: an oppressive regime, even even China. Today we see a
Speaker 1: massive use case to bitcoin right where people need to
Speaker 1: get money out, people need to protect it. You you,
Speaker 1: you know, we look at like a list of activities,
Speaker 1: but that's also argued that's a use case. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a listed but like it's proving its case that
Speaker 1: it's being able to be used against opposition or whatever.
Speaker 1: So there is use case. But I'll agree with you.
Speaker 1: But I'll agree with you because I do believe the
Speaker 1: use case to replace gold, you know, the Winklevy that's
Speaker 1: their big argument. You know, it's goal to point out.
Speaker 1: So I don't disagree with what you're saying, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't give it the value it twelve that I believe
Speaker 1: it's heavily it's a heavily manipulated market. So we're talking
Speaker 1: about use case first value. Now, I would agree with
Speaker 1: you that that's a use case in theory. If it
Speaker 1: works properly, censorship resistant, it's easily transportable, you know, it's
Speaker 1: got a lot of good value. But the problem is,
Speaker 1: I believe it's a heavily manipulated market on valuation, So
Speaker 1: I'm comparing valuation to use Yeah, I wasn't talking valuations.
Speaker 1: We could argue till the day, you know, to the
Speaker 1: day is over. I was just talking about just just
Speaker 1: use cases. And where you saw it was, like I said,
Speaker 1: just curious because I would imagine seeing all the bad
Speaker 1: maybe contain to you and maybe you start to like
Speaker 1: lose sight of like how big this is or something. No,
Speaker 1: I think that I think that it's going to be.
Speaker 1: It's a disruptor. I do believe that you know, there's
Speaker 1: value in it. We're you know, and when I give
Speaker 1: my speeches to people who have never seen bitcoin and
Speaker 1: know what bitcoin is or cryptocurrency, I say, look, take
Speaker 1: out a dollar bill, look at the serial number. This
Speaker 1: is an enhancement version of being able to prove that
Speaker 1: the money you have is real. That's a use case.
Speaker 1: I believe in that. So if that's the question, then yeah,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely And also I think also I'm curious on
Speaker 1: the just a differentiation because bitcoin was launched anonymously, decentralized
Speaker 1: UM obviously was not a scam, uh the coin itself.
Speaker 1: Now we talk about the exchanges different but like now
Speaker 1: you deal with all these I c o s, right,
Speaker 1: and like a lot of them clearly are scams, and
Speaker 1: so like it seems like there's a huge divide, right
Speaker 1: Bitcoin over here and everything else kind of over here.
Speaker 1: Maybe well, anyone who's positive in the space, they have
Speaker 1: to make that differentiation. So I totally agree with you
Speaker 1: on that. UM So from the point of it being
Speaker 1: the aspect of yeah, the I c O over Bitcoin, Yes,
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. And I do think that
Speaker 1: the more use cases out of crypto, when we can
Speaker 1: show that there's no manipulation in the system is when
Speaker 1: the next moon will happen. You know, there's got to
Speaker 1: be they've got to remove. But for people like me,
Speaker 1: in order to remove that, you have to remove some
Speaker 1: of the things that the O G crowd loves. You
Speaker 1: can have to remove some of the anonymous factors in it.
Speaker 1: But I would love to see I would love to
Speaker 1: see the manipulation of the gold and silver markets go away.
Speaker 1: And that's been a few thousand years so and that's
Speaker 1: my example when people ask me about you know, well, look,
Speaker 1: you know, you got all this fraud in you know,
Speaker 1: the marketplaces, yet the bank failures the Look look at
Speaker 1: how much regulation is there and how much fraud is
Speaker 1: still there. Almost the more regulations there, the worst it gets.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I feel more
Speaker 1: comfortable playing my money in the bank than I do
Speaker 1: on the cryptocurrency exchange. So I don't disagree with you
Speaker 1: that there that there is a ton of fraud under
Speaker 1: the regulation under regulated society, but in unregulated society, I
Speaker 1: think the fraud is gonna be even worse. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we should always be up, we should always be optimizing
Speaker 1: for the risk. So just take that into consideration. I
Speaker 1: agree we're super early in this technology. It is not
Speaker 1: I don't believe it's a store of value today. It's
Speaker 1: definitely not a money today. Um, it's a collectible. It's
Speaker 1: a speculative asset and uh manager risk accordingly, right, So yeah,
Speaker 1: good stuff I'd like to talk more a little bit
Speaker 1: about about some of that, the manipulation and whatnot, but
Speaker 1: but we're out of time. You gotta respect your time, um,
Speaker 1: but I appreciate you coming on. So for anybody who
Speaker 1: thinks that they may have been taking advantage of or
Speaker 1: something like that, what's the best way to reach out
Speaker 1: to you or good with my website where they reach
Speaker 1: out to you. So go to the website Silver Miller
Speaker 1: Law dot com, follow me on Twitter DC silver is
Speaker 1: my Twitter handle, UM, and just look me up. Whatever
Speaker 1: you do, if someone takes advantage of you, find a
Speaker 1: lawyer who has experience, because someone out there can help you. Yeah. Great,
Speaker 1: all right, David, thanks so much for your time. Thanks
Speaker 1: mat Hey. If you like this episode of the Market
Speaker 1: Disruptors Podcast, please help us take this to the top
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