WEBVTT - Fighting Back Against Crypto Scams and Loss 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.520 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.720 this started. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.280 Market Disruptors podcast. Today I am sitting down with David Silver. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.280 He's the securities fraud and investment loss attorney. He represents 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.879 clients who have lost money bendy fraud, at etcetera. He's 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:40.680 not a couple of really big cases that we get into. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.519 One is this big sim swapping that has been a 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.760 big problem. People are getting their cryptocurrencies hacked into install 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.879 in because of this, and so we talk about sim swapping, 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.720 what the case is looking like. We get into how 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.480 you can protect yourself from sim swapping if it does 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:57.680 happen to you, what you should do, And we also 0:00:57.720 --> 0:00:59.680 get into some other stuff with coin base and the 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.280 Burke Versus coin based case, talking about the Bitcoin cash 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.080 fork and what happened there, as well as a bunch 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.480 of other legal issues that you should be aware of 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.440 ramifications that you may have if you've had a loss, 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:13.920 and so much more good stuff. Let's go ahead and 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.319 just jump right into it with David. All Right, everyone, 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.560 welcome back to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.800 I am sitting down with David Silver and he's an 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.639 attorney working on the securities fraud, investment loss, et cetera. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.679 And um it's h He's got a couple of exciting 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.320 things that he's working on we want to talk about. 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.800 So let's just go ahead and just jump right into it. Hey, David, 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.560 Hey Mark, how are you. Hey? I'm doing good. Thanks, 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.600 Thanks for taking the time to come on. Um, I 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:41.600 know we've worked together a little bit, kind of had 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.440 a relationship for a while, but uh, really just kind 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:46.240 of excited to talk to you and hear about some 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:47.880 of the bigger stuff that's going on in the market 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.160 today that people should be aware of. But for a 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.080 little bit of background, why don't you just kind of 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.160 tell everybody who you are, where you're from, and how 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:57.720 you got to crypto, what you're doing. Sure, my name 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.960 is David Silver, I'm a founding partner or at Silver Miller. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:06.480 Um I got to crypto like most people accidentally. Um. 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.280 I was sitting in a bar in two thousand and 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.400 twelve in Utah and some guy was trying to impress. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:15.720 We were on a board of directors for a philanthropical 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.840 organization and some guy was trying to impress the other 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.640 four guys at the table and started talking about bitcoin 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:23.440 and the US. The four of us kind of did 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.480 what everyone did, especially back then. We shook our heads. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.520 We were like, this is nothing, I mean, come on, 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.240 and he took all of our cell phones and he 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.400 gave us And at the time I thought he gave 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:35.640 us all the equal amount of bitcoin, but he gave 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.640 me five bitcoin. He opened up a coin based account 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.480 of gave me five bitcoin in two thousand twelve, which 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.280 at the time was worth about two hundred bucks. So 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:45.880 I was like, yeah, cool, some guya gave me a 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.280 thousand bucks. He's going to jail. I'm never gonna touch 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:50.880 this stuff. I've never got anything to do with it. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.600 And then I ended up doing a case for someone 0:02:55.639 --> 0:03:00.160 about crypto against a company called Crypsy into that some 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.480 fifteen and then when the ship hit the fan in 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.840 two thousand seventeen, I logged back into that account, the 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.799 coin based account for the first time in about five years, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.360 and those five bitcoin were worth about a hundred and 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:15.919 thirty thousand dollars. I was like, I was like, that's crazy. 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:17.640 And the guy never went to jail, which was a 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:21.399 good side. Um. It turns out that the other four 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.720 guys at the table, he only gave them one bitcoin 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.560 each and he was trying to impress me, and I 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:28.440 thank him. At work, I sent them some very nice 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.320 follows of wine when things were peaking. I still hold 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.840 those five bitcoins, so I while I'm not necessarily a 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.080 I have never I can honestly say I have never 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:44.120 bought a cryptocurrency. I have only received them. So I 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.119 still I guess if by accident, I'm a bitcoin maximalist 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:52.200 because I basically hold bitcoin through my lawsuits. I do 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:56.360 now hold others by almost what I would call accident 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.120 or you know, the malfians of others, because I do 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.400 take paim in. You know, I do take payment and 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.320 contingency fee. I represent lots of people. Some of my 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.400 big loss suits are I've got the only class action 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.480 against coin base. Uh that's called like delve coin Base. 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.960 I've got a big case against I've got a couple 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:20.000 of big cases against cracking. The biggest one relates to 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:25.680 a flash crash in May two thousand seventeen. Got it's 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.919 been a while now, May two thousand seventeen, when the 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:34.200 price of Eve went from nine to twenty six over 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.000 about two hours. That case is actually set to be 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.520 tried soon. I got some class actions. I was part 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.120 of originally the class action against Teza's I've got the 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:51.360 class action against Gigawatt to connect one Coin, Nano Monkey Capital, 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:53.920 and I guess we're gonna talk about today. I also 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.279 do a lot of SIM swapping cases. I got about 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.920 forty SIM swapping cases where people cell phones are hija 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.080 act in one one way or another and they lose 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.640 a lot of their crypto. Yeah. Wow, that's a that's 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:10.320 a lot of cases. You sound like a pretty busy guy. Yeah. 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:13.880 This is good for me, it's bad for other people. 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.800 Yeah right. Yeah. So I want to talk about the 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:18.919 SIM swapping because that's a hot topic and and it 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:20.560 really relates to a lot of people. We should all 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.880 be aware of it because it's a major security issue 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:27.240 for sure. Um, but just kind of overall, Um, it 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:28.960 seems like, I mean, with a lot of these cases 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.960 that you mentioned, you know, with the flash crash for example. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.679 I mean really it's about um holding these businesses, whether 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.760 they're exchanges or whatever, accountable for what they're doing, right, 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.599 I mean that kind of sums it up so um. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.360 In in the cracking flash cash for example, people were 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.880 uh subject to losses because they couldn't get in and 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.320 sell their coins or whatever. Um, and so holding them accountable. Right. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.919 So basically, and you know mine, I'll share my screen 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:04.599 for a second. Um, So basically we're gonna walk through. 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.560 Just make sure I got the right one which who 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.680 which screen of my sharing? I see? Yeah, I see, 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.919 I see your SIM swap fraud. Um. So this is 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.640 a podcast f So for the podcast, I'll go ahead 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.839 and a link to this uh link to this image 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:28.640 for you guys. Yeah. So basically the image is showing, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.400 you know, it's the walking through for whether sim swap 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:38.480 is and sim swapping effectively. Um. There's I have my telephone, 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.120 I have my cell phone service with a T and 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:44.800 T and all right, about one o'clock in the morning 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.080 on a Friday night, SIM swappers will call a T 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.080 and T and they will sim swap and they will 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.320 ask for a T and T to swap the SIM 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:01.640 card from my iPhone to another phone, and effectively what 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:06.000 ends up happening is my phone I lose the network 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.880 access to a T and T and the hacker gets 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.800 to take over the network access on their phone, So 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.840 all of my phone calls, my text messages, everything goes 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.760 to the hackers phone instead of mind is that like 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.280 porting your number over? It's so there are two types 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.240 of There are two types of hacks. The porting is 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.200 a little more complicated and hackers have stayed away from it. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.200 About two three years ago, it was more popular for 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.960 the hackers to port your number, but porting takes a 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.960 day or two. The SIM swap is instantaneous, so they 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.960 actually moved to the SIM swapping over the SIM over 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:48.200 the porting. Uh. They're actually after the consensus in May 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.520 of two thousand nineteen, the last main consensus in New York. 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.080 Sim porting on Verizon became a problem again. And there 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.000 are a lot of UH, simports, but for the most 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.000 part right now, where we're seeing or sims swaps, not 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:06.040 some imports alright, So they're they're effectively the same, I mean, 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.480 the same outcome and the same risk to the user. 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.280 It's the same risk to the user, you actually lose 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.960 your cell phone number on the sim port, so that 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:18.880 usually they'll move it from like a T and T 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:25.000 to a smaller provider and it comes more complicated. Uh, 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.880 with a SIMS swap. The moment you realize you've been swapped, 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:30.560 you can walk into an a T and T store 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.040 and they can fix it instantaneously. Unfortunately, the hackers are 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.760 so good it takes them about an hour to clean 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:41.319 out all of your email and all of your crypto accounts. Literally, 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.320 we've seen it as quickly as six minutes. So let's 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.760 so let's walk through that. So, um, the hacker gets 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.240 into a T and T S database or convinces a 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.280 store employee to swap over the sim for example, and 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.040 now they have access to my phone, uh, text messages, 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:57.760 et cetera. And then what do they do with that? 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.680 So what ends up happening is when the hacker gets 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.160 access to your phone, a lot of your accounts and 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:08.960 we found especially your Gmail accounts and your iCloud accounts 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.000 are being are able to be reset on two factor 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:16.600 authentication through SMS confirmation. So what the hacker does is 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.120 he logs into your Gmail clicks I forgot my password. 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:25.199 Then Gmail will send him an SMS two factor authentication 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.439 back to the cell phone, which the hacker now controls. 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:33.480 They'll reset your Gmail account and then use your Gmail account. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.319 He'll look for what emails you're getting. They'll look for, 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.400 you know, if you have a coin based account, you know, 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.120 he'll know you have a coin based will go the 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.760 coin base, will then try and reset your coin base. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.440 The problem we've seen is a lot of people think 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.440 they're protected because they have two factor authentication with Google 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:57.560 authenticator or author and it turns out most people's accounts, 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.440 even the Google authenticator or the author are still tied 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:07.400 as back up too there to SMS authentication and can 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.920 be reset by having control of the cell phone. Hmm. 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.040 And the second thing is a lot of people on 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:19.079 their Gmail account keep their seed information so they can 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.120 reset accounts, or they keep there, or they keep their 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:27.120 backup for their authie or they're Authie or their Google 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.760 authenticator on their Gmail or eye cloud and i Cloud 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:35.840 for instance. You can't even un attached two factor authentication 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.600 with SMS right now, It's virtually impossible. Anyone who keeps 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:45.119 anything store on eye cloud is the easiest hack out there. Mhmm, yeah, interesting. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.559 I know, I know with with Gmail, it does obviously 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.240 keeps your phone number as well. Um, what about you know, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.760 what about people that have their two factor authentication on 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.320 a like a separate device, so it's not on their phone. 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.720 Are you saying that that may not adder because if 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.480 they get access to their phone number, they might not 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.520 even need to have access to the to f A. 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:09.160 So let's use something like treasure, you know where Treaser 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.640 is its own backup. There are a lot of people 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:16.360 who keep their seed information in their email, right and 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.440 some of the so in some of the lawsuits at 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:22.520 and T, T Mobile, Verizon, they're blaming the user for 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.480 not securing their crypto assets to the best of their ability. 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.080 And you know, it's it is a defense. So in theory, 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.360 you should be protected if you're you know, third party 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:40.400 secure wallet is truly secure. Unfortunately, what the hackers have 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.160 found is they are most people use a backup for 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.400 their security. That backup is usually stored in their email, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.280 whether it be their Gmail or their eye cloud. And 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.800 they come in and they sit and they basically come 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.200 in and they get through the back door of the 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.200 security measure because most people are lazy and keep everything 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.880 in their email accout right. So yeah, always a bad 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.080 idea to keep your seed in your computer anywhere. I 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.040 think we saw Ian Billina said that he kept his 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.040 in his ever note account, which I use every note 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.080 like crazy. Um, I think if you put it in 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.480 Google Drive or uh job box, anywhere that's digital, you 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.840 have the risk of a hacker getting access to that. So, 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.000 um I keeping your backup seed on paper is something 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.120 that I've always done, but I am concerned. Um as 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.320 you say, like if they get access to the email 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.000 that you log into your exchange with and then they're 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.760 able to reset your exchange with just your cell phone 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.679 number and not needing the two f a. Um. So 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.240 here's where you know a lot of people have a 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:45.880 false sense of security. Where do they use coin based cracking, Gemini, 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:51.400 bit Trux coloniacs. They'll think that they're safe because they're 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.160 using Google two factor authentication or off the the log 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.559 into those as their second factor. So on coin based 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.720 or cry can you can use SMS two factory authentication. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.960 If you're using SMS and your phones compromise, you're gonna 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:11.360 be compromised, right you use Google authenticator or off the 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.760 you can still be compromised if the hacker. The first 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:20.680 thing the hacker looks for is the Google Authenticator or 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.280 AF the emails in your Gmail account so they are 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.439 able to replicate out of your If they can, they 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.760 will change that and they will immediately then go after 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.240 your exchange accounts and they are and they have been 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.920 quite successful at it. Interesting, So that frames up the 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.839 let's that frames up the overall issue. Um, the big 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.640 one that's super popular right now. I know you said 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:48.560 you have thirty or so that you're working on. But 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.760 the one that's really taken kind of media headlines is 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:55.480 this Turpin versus A T and T um. Some of 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.160 that looks like, I mean, it came out. I think 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.439 maybe they brought it up where like actually a T 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.760 and T kind of has a history of being hacked 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.440 and people getting access to it. Is that kind of 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.120 what framed it up? And are they trying to show 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.000 like negligence on A T and T s part there? 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.439 So the problem with the A T and T and 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.480 Michael Turpin's case, and I you know, at the end 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.080 of the day talking about Michael's case, I am not 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.160 Michael's lawyer. I don't represent Michael. I have no inside 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.000 knowledge about Michael's case. I want to make that clear. 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.560 Um I did said, I did sit next to Michael 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.880 at consensus on the panel where we both talked about 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:35.400 sim swapping cases. But effectively, what makes Michael's case unique 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.600 is that Michael had his second fact, he had an 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:43.360 enhanced security pen for his A T and T account. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.680 So most people when they log into when they go 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.800 there with an A T and T store, they get 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.680 a four to Japan. Michael had a six or eight 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.640 to Japan. I personally had a six or eight to Japan, 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.920 and I also was a victim of sim swapping. Uh 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.160 So A T and T is offering you an enhanced 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.880 mechanism to uh secure your account because they are aware 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.440 this is a problem. So ironically, what ends up happening 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.280 is that after we have these type of you know, 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.560 false sense of security measures, a T and T employee 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:22.240 simply bypassed your security when someone calls in and anyone 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:24.680 can bypass by, you know, whether it's telling your birthday 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.640 or giving some other personal information. Now we've learned through 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:33.160 Michael's lawsuit and other criminal indictments that A T and 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.600 T employees or contractors, along with Horizon and T Mobile, 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:43.600 we're selling the consumer protected information that was used to 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:49.680 access the accounts. So again, you know, there's there's federal 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.560 law play here, state law play here, and there's also 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.000 the terms of service of a T and T a 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.240 play here, because a T and T when you sign 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.560 up with them. And this is just about Michael's case, 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.480 but this is the same for any major carrier, not 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.240 just talking about Michael's case exclusively. You waive your rights 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:12.360 to a class action. How many people have been hurt 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.080 unlike Michael. So Michael lost about twenty four million dollars 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:20.200 and tokens at the peak of the market. Um, now 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.960 he's doing punitive damages of an extra two hundred million dollars. Really, 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.320 the only people who get punitive damages are on TV. 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:31.040 You've ever you very rarely see that in real life. Um. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.840 But what's interesting here is of even like the thirty 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.520 and forty people I represent, those are the people who 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.560 have damages in excess of twenty fifty hundred thousand, a million, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:44.320 two million dollars and damages. I speak to so many 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.240 people who have been hit and compromised, who lost half 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.480 a bitcoin, you know, a thousand dollars worth of ripple 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.600 because there's a class action waiver. None of those people 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.920 are able to get representation by you know, a contingency 0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.600 fee lawyer. I mean I get yelled and screamed out 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.640 all the why won't you take my case? This is horrible. 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.680 I've got this, I've got that. So for every case 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.000 I do take, I have to turn down four or five. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.480 But the hackers are doing in mass and then are 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:15.879 successful on a couple like Turpin, like you know some 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.960 of my clients. But for everyone, they're successful, and they 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:21.840 also probably fail on five to ten. You know, people 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.120 they're hacking, But what do they do. They walk around Consensus, 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.160 They walk around every cryptoconference. They take everyone's business cards. 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.640 Your business card has your email on it, your cell 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:36.280 phone number on it, your name on it. Even if 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.840 they're not working with insiders, they try. They can, some 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.920 of them socially engineered backwards. But they are looking for 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.720 you know, most people at Consensus are trying to sound 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.159 more important than they are, so they're gonna be like 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.919 I hold this token and I use coin base, I 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.360 do X, I have my money here. And for the hackers, 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.040 it's just you know, sometimes people are the Rome Wars enemies. 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.040 They are trying to show off, they're trying to do things, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.200 and they're losing their own money. Yeah, wow, how how 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.199 how easy that could be once you get that that 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.200 key information, I can see that. Um, it's interesting you 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.160 talk about how a T and T gives you an 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:18.000 extra security measure, um, which which tricks you into or 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.920 kind of gives you this false sense of security. I guess, um, 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.760 when you have that that extra measures that you've put 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.240 in place, showing that you have been proactive to be 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:32.080 more secure, does that put more damage or claim unto them? 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:38.160 So unfortunately, the answer is called comparative negligence. And while 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.119 every while we're all trying to get a T and 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.080 T to be fully responsible, a T and T s 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:44.920 defense and I'm not saying I agree with it, but 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.480 their defenses. They're not an insurance company for you for 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.200 your assets. And then they are not a and they're 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.560 not a security company for you for your assets. So 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.040 they're not responsible. First, let's say the fact that you 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.600 turned around decided to put your coins on an exchange 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.480 that you know had extra security measures that you yourself 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:12.600 did not avail yourself to. Yeah, they're responsible. You're responsible 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.639 because there's a third party intervening act i e. That 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:20.639 hacker of the criminal, and you're responsible because you yourself 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.320 had your seat information for your treasure wallet in your 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.879 Gmail account, right. You know your Gmail account wasn't backed 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.000 up with two factor authentication. You could have stopped them 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.680 getting your access. But the simpswap itself is the first 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.440 step of many steps, and if you were taking better 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.959 protection in steps two, three, and four, you would have 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.040 lost any money. Yeah, I was curious. I'm with T Mobile. Um, 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:46.440 it seems like it's all around a T and T. 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.200 But you did mention there's stuff going on in T 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.320 Mobile when this had gotten hot, and maybe back in 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.840 they had contacted me and said, hey, we can lock 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.040 your account. Do you want to like enable this where, um, 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.119 you know no what he can change it unless you 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.480 come into the store. I said yes, But I think 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:05.800 I've heard of the case where even people had done 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.600 that but it still was getting swapped. Is that? Yes? 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.040 So the reason why people to talk about Turpin Turpins 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.719 and federal court in California, it's public. My forty cases 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:20.040 are all in arbitration and not public, So that's why 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.560 those are all getting talked about, right, now I would 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.520 say mostly I the large percentage of people I speak 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.480 to are A T and T. The next is T Mobile, 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.879 the next is Horizon, and last is Sprint. I guess 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.840 since they're gonna be emerging soon, Sprint and T Mobile 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.760 will be one. Yeah. Wow, Yeah, I could see how 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.399 they could say. I mean, hey, we can't be responsible 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.240 for your whole life. I mean, we can be responsible 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.240 for damages to your cell phone, but not twenty five 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:53.200 million dollars in in crypto. Um. I kind of get that. 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.720 But I mean, given their size and negligence, I guess something. 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:58.520 I mean, you wouldn't be taking these cases on if 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:00.919 you didn't think there was an outcome coming. Right, Well, 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:02.840 let's think it back, because you're using a word a 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.600 lot of people use when they call me up. They're like, well, 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:07.960 A T T is negligent and what they did, they're 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.840 responsible there. The problem is, when you sign your cell 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:15.479 phone contract, it's basically like signing a mortgage. It's probably 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:20.000 thirty pages long their terms and conditions. You actually specifically 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.760 agree that they're not responsible for any negligence on your account. 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:30.080 You also specifically agree that your damages are limited, so 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:32.919 you know it's When I tell people, you know, what 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.520 the value of their cases are worth, they're like, well, 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.240 that's not fair, and I'm like, well, I understand that, 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.320 but I don't make the law. You know. You you know, 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:42.840 you know, be very like I get to look at 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.880 your Twitter account, you know, nowadays, and I'm like, look, 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.199 all the people that you want to vote for, you 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.320 want to have an office, those are the people who 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.720 are protecting the big companies, not you. You know, if 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:55.440 you want to vote with your pocket book, then you 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.680 know you should vote for people who want to give 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.639 you access to the courts. You know. You may not 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:06.080 like liberal Democrats for instance, like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.399 but they are the ones who would allow you to sue. 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:10.800 You know, if you vote for, you know, a Republican, 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:13.399 you know, Republicans tend to say you shouldn't have access 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:15.360 to courts. And I'm not meaning to make this political 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.240 either way. I'm just saying that, you know, you can't 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:22.400 have the both ways. You can't say that the terms 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:27.320 of conditions don't matter, the law doesn't matter. I got robbed. 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:29.520 I want my money back, you know. And it's especially 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:32.480 we're in the crypto community. We have so many libertarians 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.959 and anarchists. You know, it's one of my most favorite 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.560 quotes that I've had in my path. Everyone's an anarchist 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.880 until they lose their money. Then they want a lawyer. Yeah, 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.880 that's true, and and uh I agree with that statement. 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:48.879 I I tend to fall on that that side of 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.240 the of the line, I guess. But I'm I'm willing 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.960 to accept that responsibility. You know, I grew up. Um 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.840 I see, uh, you know all these personal injury cases 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.600 and uh, you know, I see it's like people access 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:02.479 to land and they want to be able to go 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.200 do these things, and but then they get hurt there 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:07.199 and then they want somebody responsible. So it's like, we 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:09.400 want the freedom, but we don't want to we don't 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.399 want the responsibility that comes with the freedom, right. I 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:13.680 guess that's kind of what you're saying. Well, it's think 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.240 of someone who you know, wants to jump out of 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:20.280 a plane and have a parachute on. You know, statistically 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.639 you're pretty safe if the parachute works and you know 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.800 how the skydive. But now you decide to take it 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.200 one step further. You want to jump off of a 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:33.040 bridge with a with a skydiving pack on your because 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.359 you think you're an outdoor adventure of you know, sportsman, 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:38.680 and all of a sudden, when you know something goes 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:41.560 wrong because you only you're supposed to have twenty tho 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:43.919 fet you only have five thousand feet. You want to 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:45.639 see the guy who told you about going on the 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:49.399 bridge here. If your money was at you know, Morgan 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:53.520 Stanley Wells, far Ago, Goldman Sacks and your cell phone 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:55.959 was swapped, the hacker would take three days to get 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:57.840 your money and you would get your money back. The 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.080 fact that it's crypto and it happens instant enviously is 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:05.159 the problem. For instance, I'll give another great example. A 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:07.080 lot of clients who lost their money in the US 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.360 on bit max. Use bit max and when you're in US, 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:13.680 so now they're like, well, I want my money back. 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:17.000 Someone stole my money. Well where is your money? Well, 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.280 I can't give you that information. May mean you can't 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.399 give me that information, Well, it's it's it was I 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:24.840 was using bit max, you know, and bit max and 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:27.119 the money was stolen. But what the email addressed were 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:29.239 you using? How are you logging in? Well? I had 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:32.920 a proton email account that you know, the hacker guy 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:35.760 that I can't get back. Now. Well, if you can't 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:39.479 prove your damages, you can't see And that's become an 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.520 interesting twist in this, you know, just it's kind of 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:44.840 like you know too, It's kind of like to mafios is. 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:47.280 The first guy steals the money, the second guy steals 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:49.520 the money from the first guy. The first guy wants 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:51.000 to go to the cops. The cops say, where did 0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:52.320 you get the money? It goes, well, I stole it 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:55.400 from individual number one. You know. It's it's a real 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:59.800 problem because this doesn't happen even on these halts. It 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:03.560 they don't get your legacy bank accounts for that. And 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:06.040 you know, you got to conchoose your poisons. And that's 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:10.160 part of the telecoms defenses. If you were more secure, 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:12.359 if you put your money in the banks, none of 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:16.840 this would happen to you. Yeah, use crypto, live by crypto. Yeah, 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:20.320 that makes sense. I'm curious, Um, I'm curious. You're talking 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:24.600 about like proving this, so, like I would imagine there 0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:27.159 has to be some proof that there was damages. I 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:29.720 saw in Turpin's case, for example, he had to show 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.800 that proved that the sim swap led to loss. So 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:36.080 I've been hacked. I had a I had a hot wallet, 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:38.320 an app on my phone, and one day I logged 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:41.840 in and all my money was gone. But how can 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:43.880 I prove that was hacked? All you see is a 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:47.400 is a debit out of the account. Again, I still 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:49.840 to this day don't know how that happened. I have 0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:53.919 really good security and it was just gone. How do 0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:56.359 I prove that was stolen and hacked? And I didn't 0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:59.720 just transfer it somewhere. So that's another good reason why 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:01.879 p bull you know, aren't getting a hundred cents on 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:05.720 their dollar in these cases because that is virtually impossible 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:09.680 to prove given the nature. So what we've some sort 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:11.720 of things that we're doing. We do what we call 0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:14.520 it an anatomy of the hack. We show how the 0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:19.240 hacker gets in instantaneously goes hacks your accounts in you know, 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:22.480 the US exchanges use the information from the I P 0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:27.000 addresses on the US exchanges, and there's just a mechanical way. 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:31.280 But you're making a valid point, and points to telecoms 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:33.320 are making. But how do we know that just wasn't you? 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:35.280 Then you're not thinking it. I had a guy who 0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:38.120 claims he lost five million dollars, and when we kept 0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:41.200 having him for proof, he couldn't even provide the simple 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.679 proof we asked for. I look him, I said, you know, 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:46.399 we can't. If you can't prove the damages and you 0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:49.760 can't get me the lawyer you're a lawyer to believe 0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:52.719 that your damages are legitimate, I will never be able 0:26:52.760 --> 0:26:56.600 to convince the other side. I guess, um, if we 0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:59.000 could show that a T and T or whatever carrier 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:03.640 did sup WoT the swift um sim unauthorized, and then 0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:07.320 you could see these uh you know, the trail of 0:27:07.320 --> 0:27:09.760 of of the Gmail or whatever, and then the accounts 0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.280 emptied out and it all happened within an hour. I 0:27:12.320 --> 0:27:15.640 guess that's kind of compelling. Yes, but it's also something 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:19.160 you can fake nowadays. I couldn't fake. I couldn't fake 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:23.679 a T and T having an unauthorized sim swab. Well, no, 0:27:23.920 --> 0:27:28.000 you couldn't, but you can do. You can get give 0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:31.960 me your personal information. I can call a T and 0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:37.159 T and say I am I'm Mark Morris, here's my number, 0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:40.680 and then you saw, I mean, and it's it's a legitimate. 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.480 It's a legitimate, and started the telephone companies I'm not 0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:45.439 giving them a new defense that they've never heard of 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:48.440 talking to you about this. This is something they're well 0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:51.560 aware of. And it's another reason why you know, it's 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:54.320 hard to prove these cases. There's a reason why David 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:57.000 Silver has most of them because you can only do 0:27:57.080 --> 0:28:00.000 this in math. To do this one off without people 0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:06.160 paying you is problematic. Yeah. So, um, then just real quick, 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:08.120 I mean, since you've been seeing this so much, then 0:28:08.200 --> 0:28:10.679 kind of wrap up this talk. Um, what can the 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:15.359 average person do to protect themselves against this one? You 0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:18.639 should be have enhanced security on your phone. You should 0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:21.520 tell with the carriers. You should have enhanced pins. You 0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:23.720 should know what it is. You should store those pins 0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:28.040 now in you're you know, email accounts. UH. Two. You 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:32.920 should use second to two factor authentication with Google Authenticator 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:37.040 and authe again not storing the reset account information or 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:40.960 the information in your Gmail accounts. You should make sure 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:45.040 your Gmail and your email accounts are secured by something 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:50.560 other than SMS UH password protection. That's really the key thing. 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:53.840 You don't want to use SMS for any form of 0:28:53.880 --> 0:28:57.800 your second factor authentication, and that's really the starting point. 0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:03.000 The other things are you shouldn't not leave your crypto 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:08.080 on an exchange that is not protected. I'll use coin 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:10.560 base for instance. You can now use coin based vault, 0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:14.520 which requires two email addresses and two days before money 0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:18.880 moves right. You can use bit tracks. You can white 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:22.000 list and only allow certain I P s access to 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:25.880 your account. There are measures, and if you have more 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:30.560 than a hundred thousand, whatever the number in your mind, 0:29:30.600 --> 0:29:35.880 that's too much to lose. Those are extra security precautions 0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:38.240 you should be taken. And I'll say this, and I 0:29:38.280 --> 0:29:42.600 say it all the time. What exchange you use matters, um, 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:46.360 so don't be don't be a fool, and you know, 0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:49.960 use exchanges that aren't in the US and aren't the 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:52.920 more legitimate ones. I think it's also a good point 0:29:52.960 --> 0:29:56.320 that exchanges are not bank accounts, and um, they're not 0:29:56.360 --> 0:29:58.520 meant to be bank account They're not meant to secure 0:29:58.520 --> 0:30:00.120 and instore your coins. And some of them a as 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:02.440 you mentioned like coin Base, does provide like a vault, 0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:05.360 which is pretty cool, but most exchanges are not bank accounts, 0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:07.200 are not meant to be that way. And you make 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:09.720 an absolutely valid point that I want to reiterate, which 0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:12.680 is just the more money you have, the more serious 0:30:12.680 --> 0:30:15.440 you need to take your security and I got I 0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:18.560 got some swapped. I didn't lose I didn't lose money. 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:21.720 My personal data was compromised if I didn't lose any crypto. 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:23.680 And you know, at the end of the day, I 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:26.600 creep most of my crypto on exchanges because if something 0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:30.000 goes wrong, I want to hold people accountable, and there 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:33.840 are certain security measures that I take. I use coin 0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:35.760 based vault, and people say to me all the time, 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:38.320 but David, you're a suing coin base, you're you're you 0:30:38.400 --> 0:30:40.360 say how bad they are? First of all, I would 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:43.720 sue Goldman Sacks every day and twice on Sunday if 0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:48.640 I had legitimate cases against Goldman Sacks. What crypto exchanges 0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:51.360 were in two thousand, fourteen fifteen are not what they 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:56.200 are today. I constantly praise Brian Armstrong and the winkle Bights, 0:30:56.600 --> 0:30:59.480 you know, for what they're doing, working with regulators and 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:03.600 trying to transparent. And the more transparent and you know, 0:31:03.680 --> 0:31:07.520 the better these exchanges come become, the more likely it 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:10.760 is the Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies go up and value 0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:13.240 and mainstream people will be able to use that because 0:31:13.280 --> 0:31:16.240 they feel secure about it. Yeah, that's a great point. 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:21.920 So um as a as as as a builder in 0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:24.320 the space. So let's say that I'm running an exchange, 0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:26.600 or I have an app or some dapt that manages 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:30.640 things like, um, what should I be if I'm a builder? 0:31:30.720 --> 0:31:33.640 What should we be aware of to keep ourselves out 0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:37.160 of trouble? I mean, I guess just making sure we 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:39.000 were not negligent. I mean we do our best. I 0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:40.400 mean it seems like it's just kind of like a 0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:43.720 pretty dangerous space to be in. So there are people 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:48.400 who have written interesting articles on you know, medium about 0:31:48.600 --> 0:31:51.000 people like themselves who are in this space who have 0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:55.320 been hacked and what they did wrong, and most of 0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:58.320 it boiled down to, uh, it was it do as 0:31:58.360 --> 0:32:01.560 I say, not as I do. The amount of laziness 0:32:01.560 --> 0:32:05.960 and protecting their crypto assets was staggering. Whether it was 0:32:06.080 --> 0:32:09.440 Turpin who's I mean, Michael had more you know I 0:32:09.600 --> 0:32:14.680 c O S tokens than probably anyone in the space. Um, 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:16.800 you know, there are other people who have posted and 0:32:16.800 --> 0:32:20.719 talked about how yep they had Gmail accounts with you know, 0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:25.800 just SMS two factor authentication. I think people are learning. 0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:28.120 I think that people are starting to talk about this more. 0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:30.840 But it's you know, as much as you want to 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:34.720 blame others. Especially in crypto where everything is somewhat masked 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:39.800 and somewhat instantaneous, you are responsible for yourself, no one else. 0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:43.800 You know, it's your keys, your coins, it's your coins, 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.479 your money. No one else is out there looking for you. 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:51.000 They want to take it. Yeah. Yeah, And and one 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:53.840 of the things that we love about bitcoin and cryptocurrencies 0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:56.560 is finality. Right, So when the transaction happens, it's final. 0:32:56.640 --> 0:33:00.400 But that works in two ways. It's bad. So UM, 0:33:00.440 --> 0:33:03.480 as a as a user of the ecosystem, as a 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.360 user of coins, exchanges and things like that, Um, what 0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:11.240 kinds of things should I, um be aware of that 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:13.800 might happen to me that that possibly I could have 0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:16.280 a claim on, right? I mean, so, um, I was 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:19.160 on an exchange and you mentioned like, uh, all of 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:22.240 a sudden, I can't trade on it or obviously hacks 0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:24.480 are easy, right, But like, what are some other things 0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:26.760 that we might be seen or people might be aware of, 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:29.400 have have happened to them that maybe they should think 0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:32.440 about having a claim on. So this and this is 0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:35.200 a nice segue to brokeby coin base that we were 0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:39.200 going to talk about, because brokeby coin Base is my news. 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:43.000 It's my new favorite case of my new favorite case 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:48.440 of the week. Um. Effectively, everyone should be talking about 0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:52.760 everyone in crypto should be talking about brokeby coin Base 0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:55.600 because at the end of the day, this just changed 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:59.600 the law. I mean it is cases caseflow has built 0:33:59.640 --> 0:34:02.560 one case to the time, and a court in California 0:34:02.680 --> 0:34:05.240 came out and just they said something crazy. They said 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:08.799 that at the end of the day, crypto exchanges are 0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:17.359 responsible for maintaining functional marketplaces and dysfunctional. A dysfunctional marketplace 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.439 is a liability for the exchange. What does that mean? 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:29.000 So let's use a hypothetical situation. There's an exchange that 0:34:29.120 --> 0:34:32.399 has a flash crash and the price of bitcoins right 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:34.279 now dropped from I know it's trading out right now 0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:37.479 twelve thousand bucks a couple within a couple hundred bucks 0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:40.399 of that. If the price of bitcoin on coin base 0:34:40.440 --> 0:34:47.880 went from twelve hundred to three and coin Base allowed 0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:50.640 training to go on but locked everyone out of their 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:55.719 accounts except for insiders, I be insane that you know, 0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:57.960 they would say there's something wrong, but we're gonna allow 0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:00.360 people you know who have back to who are trading 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:04.440 on who had professional institutional accounts to come in and 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:07.200 buy everyone's, you know, sell orders that we're going to 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:11.440 cascading effects. That would be a dysfunctional marketplace because the 0:35:11.480 --> 0:35:14.520 coin base would know something's wrong, they would allow that 0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:18.440 something wrong to continue, and they wouldn't stop the market. 0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:23.080 And what Burke said was they didn't make a judgment 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:27.640 call about whether the bc H being sold at the time, 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:32.160 whether that is the definition of a dysfunctional marketplace, because 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:35.120 in that lawsuit, the accusation is that during the first 0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:39.000 couple of minutes of trading price fight, some people couldn't 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:42.520 get in, some market orders replaced some warrant. The court 0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:45.759 didn't say that is by definition of dysfunctional marketplace. The 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:50.319 court's tympically said, as it reads the law and as 0:35:50.440 --> 0:35:52.560 it believes, and it actually says it in the opinion, 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:56.400 this is what we believe the California Supreme Court would decide. 0:35:56.920 --> 0:35:59.959 We are sitting because it's a federal court case. There's 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:03.680 a federal court judge interpreting what California law would say, 0:36:03.840 --> 0:36:06.440 and it said that we believe the California Supreme Court 0:36:06.440 --> 0:36:12.840 wouldn't believe the cryptocurrency exchanges are responsible for maintaining functional marketplaces. 0:36:12.880 --> 0:36:15.960 By the way, that's what they sell. That's what they're 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:21.440 advertising is look at Krakens advertising, coin bases advertising. Gemini 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:25.160 is advertising. They are selling to you use our exchange. 0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:28.840 We are safe, we are secure, and we serve a 0:36:29.160 --> 0:36:36.040 functional marketplace. So that the word dysfunctional sounds a little confusing. 0:36:36.080 --> 0:36:37.360 I mean when you put it in those terms in 0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:41.400 your example, it sounds more insider kind of fraudulent activity, 0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:43.480 like hey, everyone's locked out, but are few people are 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:47.239 able to take advantage of this market? Um. Dysfunctional to 0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:51.120 me sounds more like, um, something eltside of our control happens. 0:36:51.120 --> 0:36:54.000 So let's say, for example, bitcoin shoots from twelve thousand 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:57.480 to twenty thousand, everybody jumps in to buy it, and 0:36:57.640 --> 0:37:00.160 it's just too much volume and and exchange hand and 0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:03.600 the and the site crashes and that's like a legitimate problem. 0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:06.680 Would that be considered dysfunctional or it's kind of like, hey, 0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:08.879 we're locking you out, but we're allowing you in, which 0:37:08.880 --> 0:37:12.120 is kind of more insider. So I think that's gonna 0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:14.560 be what the courts. And that's why I say case law. 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:19.319 This didn't change the law. The laws builds one case 0:37:19.360 --> 0:37:23.080 at the time, which your jurisprudence. But what it says is, 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:26.480 now we're gonna see what exactly you're asking. What is 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:31.719 the line of dysfunctionality? Is it dysfunctional? If I put 0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:34.840 in in order and it takes point one second to 0:37:35.160 --> 0:37:38.680 go through, but the person behind me went through point 0:37:38.719 --> 0:37:42.839 in half of that time, the speed equal dysfunctionality, that's 0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:45.480 gonna be a lining. It's kind of like, you know, uh, 0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:50.719 using a real world example, um someone who It used 0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:55.920 to be that you were allowed to drinks before you drive. 0:37:56.840 --> 0:37:59.600 Now you're allowed one and a half drinks before you drive. 0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:03.360 The lines constantly shifting and people are becoming more liable. 0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:07.760 The McDonald's case where someone stilled hot coffee in their laps. 0:38:09.120 --> 0:38:12.399 Before that happened, wasn't if someone gave you a cup 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:16.080 of coffee. It wasn't necessarily illegal for McDonald's to hand 0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:18.799 you a cup of coffee. And now you can get suit. 0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:21.320 Now McDonald's is still not illegal. It's still legal for 0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:23.360 them giving you a cup of coffee. But now if 0:38:23.360 --> 0:38:27.279 you're still it on yourself and it's degrees and you 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:30.160 burn yourself, they're liable. Someone had to go to court 0:38:30.200 --> 0:38:32.920 and draw that line in that distinction. But if you 0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:34.640 pour a cup of coffee on your lap, it's only 0:38:34.680 --> 0:38:38.680 fifty degrees and you don't burn yourself. That's okay, people, 0:38:38.800 --> 0:38:41.560 We're learning where the lines are gonna be drawn. UM. 0:38:41.760 --> 0:38:44.799 I personally believe that if an exchange knows of a 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:50.000 problem and those there's this dysfunction in their marketplace, they 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:52.719 have an obligation to shut that down, not look at 0:38:52.760 --> 0:38:56.719 users and say, no, this was dysfunctional, but we're gonna 0:38:56.760 --> 0:39:00.120 allow it to go because we're crypto cryptocurrency exchange and 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:03.760 there are no rules. Uh, turns out there are rules 0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:05.839 in crypto and I'm proud of this judge. I think 0:39:05.840 --> 0:39:08.840 it did a great job. Yeah, it makes sense. It 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:12.080 makes sense. I you know, I would hate to see 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:16.040 them being held responsible for things that were outside their control, 0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:18.680 but things that they could control and they allowed to 0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:20.680 go on. I mean, somebody has to be responsible that 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:23.840 you have to run an honest business, right, So UM 0:39:23.880 --> 0:39:28.520 I get it from that perspective. So then overall, as 0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:32.080 a user in the ecosystem, UM, I guess at the 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:35.800 end of the day, if I have um suffered damages 0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:39.640 that I believe are because of negligence or because of 0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:43.960 purposeful wrongdoing. Then then I potentially might have some recourse right, 0:39:44.000 --> 0:39:47.000 and then that's where someone will contact you. So yeah, 0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:49.640 a lot of people reach out to me and about 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:55.080 their cryptocurrency experiences, and the recourses is unique to each case. 0:39:55.840 --> 0:39:59.280 I very rarely do what I consider lost profit cases. 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:01.520 That doesn't mean that no one's ever gonna win a 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:04.600 loss profit case, but it's very hard. Most people who 0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:08.440 call me up saying I bought bitcoin and nine thousand, 0:40:08.560 --> 0:40:11.600 I was gonna sell it at thirteen thousand. Coin Base 0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:14.799 was swamped a couple of weeks ago, and they went 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:17.760 down for a little bit when it hit like thirteen 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:20.480 when it went from like seven thousand to thirteen thousand 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:22.520 in a couple of days, and they were like, well, 0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:25.680 I was gonna sell that exact peak, and I wanted 0:40:25.680 --> 0:40:28.640 that exact price I wasn't able to And now it's 0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:31.680 back to nine thousand, and you know, there are a 0:40:31.719 --> 0:40:33.400 lot of people who feel that should be a case. 0:40:33.600 --> 0:40:36.960 Look this what brokeby coin Base said, Maybe that is 0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:39.520 a good case. I'm not saying that that's not a winner. 0:40:39.960 --> 0:40:42.640 But most of the cases I handled, we do our 0:40:42.719 --> 0:40:46.560 analysis on a cost basis out of pocket. How much 0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:49.000 money did you put in? How much money do you 0:40:49.040 --> 0:40:52.000 presently have? And we do our analysis based on that, 0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:55.319 because at the end of the day, this isn't new technology, 0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:58.319 this is a new asset class. You know, it's some 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:03.560 there is some true truth that there is some limited predictability. 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:07.520 So um, you you you you, you take care of losses, 0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:10.040 but not lost opportunities, I guess would be a good 0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:12.719 way to something. Ask for lost opportunities. And somebody's in 0:41:12.719 --> 0:41:15.919 some of the lawsuits, but most of the complaints I've 0:41:15.920 --> 0:41:20.800 heard on exchange related matters or lost profit cases, someone 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:23.040 magically knew when the peak was gonna be and they 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:25.759 were gonna sell it the peak. Sure, alright, I know, 0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:27.680 we gotta start wrapping this up here. I'd like to 0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:30.520 just kind of ask you, though, where you sit, um 0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:35.080 in this whole ecosystem. So um, I wonder if maybe 0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:38.000 being an attorney gets you a little bit jaded where 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:39.960 you start to see all the bad. I'm curious what 0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:43.319 you think about bitcoin overall and cryptocurrencies. I mean, are 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:45.279 you are you a believer in bitcoin? Do you see 0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:48.120 the future um with that? Or are you still more 0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:52.680 of a skeptic and you see all the problems. Yeah, uh, 0:41:52.880 --> 0:41:56.359 I could I see this cryptocurrency to point out, I'm 0:41:56.400 --> 0:41:59.760 a believer in the technology. I'm a believer in cryptology. 0:42:00.520 --> 0:42:03.360 I'm a believer that this is moving in the right direction. 0:42:03.960 --> 0:42:06.120 But we're still at the same point of the Internet 0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:08.759 right now where everyone was just looking at porn and 0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:13.359 buying drugs. You know, we're building the more the more 0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:18.120 usable aspects, and when use cases are actually use cases 0:42:19.080 --> 0:42:23.440 is when crypto two point it will happen. I you, 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:25.840 as far as I'm concerned, you can spin a becuse 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:30.320 all twelve or two thousand cryptocurrencies on the wheel, spin 0:42:30.360 --> 0:42:32.239 the wheel, and that's gonna be the one that's successful 0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:34.600 in the end. So you think bitcoin has as much 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:37.120 of a chance as anyone else, Well, I think the 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:39.120 leader in the house and the bigger the mode. You know, 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:42.520 I'm a Wren Buffet fan. So the bigger the mode, 0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:45.560 the more likely you are to succeed. You know, I 0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:47.920 don't know. In the effect, the longer you've been around, 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.400 the more likely you are to be around. Yeah, everyone's 0:42:50.440 --> 0:42:53.920 testing bitcoin more. There's more testing, there's more you know, 0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:57.560 people who are trying to show what bitcoin canny can't do. 0:42:57.920 --> 0:42:59.920 So I'm a believer in the space and the function 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:03.000 aldi I believe. I went to all the conferences in 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:05.920 sixteen and seventeen where everyone told me every I C 0:43:06.040 --> 0:43:08.520 O was going to change the world. I'm still waiting 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:13.000 for the use cases. Until there's use case, there's really 0:43:13.000 --> 0:43:16.239 no reason why it's trading at these numbers. You don't 0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:19.680 think bitcoin has any use case at all today? I mean, 0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:22.480 I mean I would argue, like, obviously if you're in 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:26.440 an oppressive regime, even even China. Today we see a 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:28.759 massive use case to bitcoin right where people need to 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:31.520 get money out, people need to protect it. You you, 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:33.359 you know, we look at like a list of activities, 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:36.080 but that's also argued that's a use case. I mean, 0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:39.040 it's a listed but like it's proving its case that 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:42.640 it's being able to be used against opposition or whatever. 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.640 So there is use case. But I'll agree with you. 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:47.239 But I'll agree with you because I do believe the 0:43:47.320 --> 0:43:49.879 use case to replace gold, you know, the Winklevy that's 0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:52.480 their big argument. You know, it's goal to point out. 0:43:53.000 --> 0:43:55.480 So I don't disagree with what you're saying, but that 0:43:55.520 --> 0:43:57.280 doesn't give it the value it twelve that I believe 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:00.680 it's heavily it's a heavily manipulated market. So we're talking 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:04.200 about use case first value. Now, I would agree with 0:44:04.200 --> 0:44:06.560 you that that's a use case in theory. If it 0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:11.080 works properly, censorship resistant, it's easily transportable, you know, it's 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:13.520 got a lot of good value. But the problem is, 0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:17.040 I believe it's a heavily manipulated market on valuation, So 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:21.560 I'm comparing valuation to use Yeah, I wasn't talking valuations. 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:23.120 We could argue till the day, you know, to the 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:24.920 day is over. I was just talking about just just 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:27.359 use cases. And where you saw it was, like I said, 0:44:27.400 --> 0:44:29.479 just curious because I would imagine seeing all the bad 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:31.600 maybe contain to you and maybe you start to like 0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:34.120 lose sight of like how big this is or something. No, 0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:36.080 I think that I think that it's going to be. 0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:40.000 It's a disruptor. I do believe that you know, there's 0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:43.120 value in it. We're you know, and when I give 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:45.400 my speeches to people who have never seen bitcoin and 0:44:45.480 --> 0:44:48.600 know what bitcoin is or cryptocurrency, I say, look, take 0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:51.120 out a dollar bill, look at the serial number. This 0:44:51.200 --> 0:44:53.920 is an enhancement version of being able to prove that 0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:56.120 the money you have is real. That's a use case. 0:44:56.440 --> 0:44:59.080 I believe in that. So if that's the question, then yeah, 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:02.480 it's absolutely And also I think also I'm curious on 0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:06.960 the just a differentiation because bitcoin was launched anonymously, decentralized 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:10.640 UM obviously was not a scam, uh the coin itself. 0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:12.520 Now we talk about the exchanges different but like now 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:14.560 you deal with all these I c o s, right, 0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:17.920 and like a lot of them clearly are scams, and 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:20.759 so like it seems like there's a huge divide, right 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:23.040 Bitcoin over here and everything else kind of over here. 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:27.680 Maybe well, anyone who's positive in the space, they have 0:45:27.800 --> 0:45:31.120 to make that differentiation. So I totally agree with you 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:34.880 on that. UM So from the point of it being 0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:40.200 the aspect of yeah, the I c O over Bitcoin, Yes, 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:43.080 I completely agree with you. And I do think that 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:46.839 the more use cases out of crypto, when we can 0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:50.200 show that there's no manipulation in the system is when 0:45:50.280 --> 0:45:54.800 the next moon will happen. You know, there's got to 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:58.719 be they've got to remove. But for people like me, 0:45:58.760 --> 0:46:01.239 in order to remove that, you have to remove some 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:04.080 of the things that the O G crowd loves. You 0:46:04.120 --> 0:46:06.799 can have to remove some of the anonymous factors in it. 0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:08.920 But I would love to see I would love to 0:46:08.960 --> 0:46:11.480 see the manipulation of the gold and silver markets go away. 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:14.919 And that's been a few thousand years so and that's 0:46:14.960 --> 0:46:18.359 my example when people ask me about you know, well, look, 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.000 you know, you got all this fraud in you know, 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:24.400 the marketplaces, yet the bank failures the Look look at 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:26.759 how much regulation is there and how much fraud is 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:29.960 still there. Almost the more regulations there, the worst it gets. 0:46:30.960 --> 0:46:33.359 But at the end of the day, I feel more 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:35.400 comfortable playing my money in the bank than I do 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:39.279 on the cryptocurrency exchange. So I don't disagree with you 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:42.000 that there that there is a ton of fraud under 0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:47.120 the regulation under regulated society, but in unregulated society, I 0:46:47.120 --> 0:46:49.799 think the fraud is gonna be even worse. Yeah, and 0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:52.040 we should always be up, we should always be optimizing 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:55.800 for the risk. So just take that into consideration. I 0:46:55.840 --> 0:46:59.200 agree we're super early in this technology. It is not 0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:01.520 I don't believe it's a store of value today. It's 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:04.640 definitely not a money today. Um, it's a collectible. It's 0:47:04.640 --> 0:47:11.839 a speculative asset and uh manager risk accordingly, right, So yeah, 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:14.879 good stuff I'd like to talk more a little bit 0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:17.480 about about some of that, the manipulation and whatnot, but 0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:20.240 but we're out of time. You gotta respect your time, um, 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:23.600 but I appreciate you coming on. So for anybody who 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:26.840 thinks that they may have been taking advantage of or 0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:28.440 something like that, what's the best way to reach out 0:47:28.440 --> 0:47:31.000 to you or good with my website where they reach 0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:34.600 out to you. So go to the website Silver Miller 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:39.000 Law dot com, follow me on Twitter DC silver is 0:47:39.040 --> 0:47:43.760 my Twitter handle, UM, and just look me up. Whatever 0:47:43.800 --> 0:47:46.400 you do, if someone takes advantage of you, find a 0:47:46.480 --> 0:47:51.120 lawyer who has experience, because someone out there can help you. Yeah. Great, 0:47:51.239 --> 0:47:53.280 all right, David, thanks so much for your time. Thanks 0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:56.280 mat Hey. If you like this episode of the Market 0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:59.640 Disruptors Podcast, please help us take this to the top 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:02.320 of the podcast charts. Just please do me a favor 0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:05.920 and rate review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to just 0:48:06.000 --> 0:48:08.359 leave a quick review goes a long way and helping 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:11.439 us reach more people and disrupt more markets. I really 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:13.840 appreciate you listening and I'll see you next time on 0:48:13.880 --> 0:48:15.240 the Market Disruptors Podcast.