Speaker 1: My name's Rain Wilson, and I played Dwight Kurt Shrewd.
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the Office. Deep Dive. We're back, baby,
Speaker 1: that's right, we are back. I am your host, Brian
Speaker 1: baum Gartner. Today you are going to be listening to
Speaker 1: the second part of my conversation with Rain Wilson. So,
Speaker 1: just like with Angela, I wanted to save this part
Speaker 1: of Rain's interview for our Camera as Character series because
Speaker 1: Dwight had one of the most interesting relationships with the
Speaker 1: camera on the show. Sometimes it was like he was
Speaker 1: hiding from it, he hated it, but at other times
Speaker 1: the camera was his friend, like in the Sea from
Speaker 1: Stress Relief where he's lighting the fire. He thinks the
Speaker 1: camera gets what I'm doing right. And we also talked
Speaker 1: about many other important topics, like Rain's dynamic with Steve Correll,
Speaker 1: whether The Office could indeed be made today, and who
Speaker 1: in the cast was the most likely to get fired.
Speaker 1: As always, Rain had so many insightful things to say.
Speaker 1: I just love talking to him about our show. Though
Speaker 1: I hate that I'm being so nice to him, but
Speaker 1: you know what, I can't help But I love him.
Speaker 1: You love him. America loves him, Dwight. He's everyone's favorite.
Speaker 1: I'm not bitter about that at all. I'm a little
Speaker 1: bitter about that. But without further ado, here he is
Speaker 1: Rain Wilson, Bubble and I love it Bubble and squeaker
Speaker 1: Bubble and squeaker cookie every month. Left over from the
Speaker 1: night before. When we talk about what was unique about
Speaker 1: the show, um, the camera as the character. UM. To me,
Speaker 1: what's impressive and what I'm tremendously proud of in the
Speaker 1: show is that every shot it wasn't about how can
Speaker 1: we cover this person the best, how can we get
Speaker 1: this or even how can we get this joke? But
Speaker 1: is the camera there? Where is it? What story is
Speaker 1: that telling? Because we're supposedly seeing this through a Documentaryan's lens.
Speaker 1: I mean, your interactions with the cameras elevated Dwight an
Speaker 1: even higher level than it was. Yeah. So there was
Speaker 1: a constant, uh a negotiation about where the cameras should
Speaker 1: be for a scene, and Greg was very exacting about it.
Speaker 1: Randall Ione Horn one of our chief directors, Matt Son,
Speaker 1: one of our chief directors, and cameraman. There was this
Speaker 1: constant dialogue and it was very thorough. Nothing was done
Speaker 1: half asked. You know, it was just kind of like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, we rehearse the scene. Maybe the director would
Speaker 1: have it plotted out, but the writer would come in
Speaker 1: and say, well, if the camera was here when he
Speaker 1: says that thing and then looks away, we can rack
Speaker 1: focus to the person in the foreground and get their reaction,
Speaker 1: and the other camera can get this other reaction and
Speaker 1: then you know, so it was there was a lot
Speaker 1: of calculation that went on. The use of Venetian blinds
Speaker 1: was extraordinary. How do we shoot through the blinds? Is
Speaker 1: this a spy shot? Is that on this side of
Speaker 1: the blinds? On this side are they a where the
Speaker 1: cameras there? And so if you look at the episodes,
Speaker 1: it's almost mathematical about, you know, how can we position
Speaker 1: in the camera so it captures seemingly effortlessly captures the
Speaker 1: greatest number of reactions and interactions to bring out as
Speaker 1: much humanity and comedy at the same time. So, you know,
Speaker 1: when you would prep an episode, you would you know,
Speaker 1: have the a D there and you'd kind of read
Speaker 1: through the scene and you'd think about where we would
Speaker 1: need to go, and you also didn't want to just
Speaker 1: always repeat you didn't want to just always have like,
Speaker 1: you know, we'll just put the cameras in Michael's office,
Speaker 1: just shoot over one guy's left shoulder and the other
Speaker 1: guy's right shoulder, and just you wanted to find new
Speaker 1: original ways of shooting stuff, and it was very precise
Speaker 1: and sometimes it was a real puzzle. One of the
Speaker 1: challenges I remember having on one of the episodes, I
Speaker 1: can't remember which one it might have been. I think
Speaker 1: it was Classy Christmas was that if people walk in
Speaker 1: and they're having a scene and you're shooting them, you
Speaker 1: have to whip around to get reactions on the other people,
Speaker 1: Whereas if you're on the other her side and they
Speaker 1: step in front of the camera so the camera has
Speaker 1: the deep background of the rest of the office behind
Speaker 1: the players in the foreground, then you get to follow
Speaker 1: the action and just rack focus past them, past the plant,
Speaker 1: past the copy machine, and get the reactions. So it's
Speaker 1: better to be on that side of the access of
Speaker 1: shooting because for people who don't know, there's a thing
Speaker 1: called the line when you're directing, and it's the access
Speaker 1: between the principal players, and you're either on one side
Speaker 1: of the line or the other side of the the line.
Speaker 1: You can't really play on both side of the lines.
Speaker 1: They just would look really jumbled in the human brain.
Speaker 1: It's just how vision works. So I remember there being
Speaker 1: a lot of, you know, deep conversations like how do
Speaker 1: we get Steve in further so that the camera stays
Speaker 1: on this side. So it's very complex. Yeah. One of
Speaker 1: the other things that I've been thinking about is you
Speaker 1: and I were theater actors, right, Steve Angela Oscar were
Speaker 1: really improv actors, and then you've got Craig Robinson and
Speaker 1: b J who were really stand up guys, And I wonder,
Speaker 1: it seems to me that there's something in what made
Speaker 1: our ensemble unique that had to do with that. That's interesting.
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought about that before, but I think
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. People had all of these
Speaker 1: different backgrounds that kind of suited their characters, and I
Speaker 1: don't know exactly how, but I definitely see that all
Speaker 1: kind of adding into that kind of the jumble eye
Speaker 1: of of the ensemble. And also, like, remember we were
Speaker 1: just post friends, right, this was two thousand four, and
Speaker 1: everyone was very interesting faces, you know, even like John Krasinski,
Speaker 1: who's handsome, was not traditionally handsome in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of long face and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: but really interesting and odd faces all around. And that
Speaker 1: was pretty groundbreaking for the time. You see it more now,
Speaker 1: but especially for network television at that time, it was
Speaker 1: just unheard of, all these kind of weirdos. But I
Speaker 1: think the diversity in our acting backgrounds people brought different strengths.
Speaker 1: You know, what do you think made the ensemble so special?
Speaker 1: You Well, obviously I was I was the main part
Speaker 1: of that. I think Greg had a lot of experience,
Speaker 1: so he had written on Seinfeld and Simpsons and created
Speaker 1: King of the Hill, of course, but he had been
Speaker 1: on a lot of other shows, and I think he
Speaker 1: was very careful to make sure that he wasn't casting
Speaker 1: any divas and that everyone was a team player and
Speaker 1: an ensemble player. So I think that one thing that
Speaker 1: theater and improv gives you is a sense of like,
Speaker 1: it's not the Rain Wilson Show or the Steve Carrell
Speaker 1: Show or whatever, it's the It's about the ensembles, Like
Speaker 1: how do you make other people funnier? How do you
Speaker 1: play well with others? That was another thing he picked
Speaker 1: people with also, like just really good hearts, like the people.
Speaker 1: When you look back on it, everyone is a really
Speaker 1: goodhearted person. Now, I've worked on TV shows where that
Speaker 1: is not the case. In fact, I remember I forget
Speaker 1: which director was. It was a director later on season
Speaker 1: five or six, and they were like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can't believe how much you guys love each other
Speaker 1: like that. We hug each other and high five and
Speaker 1: in between takes were just laughing and watching videos and
Speaker 1: goofing off and um, just a really loving environment. And
Speaker 1: he goes, I just got back from directing Desperate Housewives.
Speaker 1: It's like half the cast is not talking to the
Speaker 1: other half of the cast. You have to call people
Speaker 1: out of trailers at certain points in time, but they
Speaker 1: won't look at each other, they won't do the off
Speaker 1: camera work with the other person. It's all this just
Speaker 1: cattiness and competitiveness and and that that exists on a
Speaker 1: lot of different shows. You kind of you kind of
Speaker 1: read about it and it's, uh, it's pretty extraordinary, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't there for us, not in the slightest No. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: so we have this, like, we have this collection of
Speaker 1: characters that are existing within this office. And I think
Speaker 1: when you think about the show, that's what you think about,
Speaker 1: and you forget how much change we had, like even
Speaker 1: from from season three and Jim leaving and then Um, Karen,
Speaker 1: Philip Elly and Andy coming in and Ed and then
Speaker 1: Ellie coming in, like we had sort of a constant
Speaker 1: revolving tour, although not really revolving because not many people left.
Speaker 1: We just got bigger. Um. I don't know, there's something
Speaker 1: interesting to me about the energy that was created by
Speaker 1: Greg constantly changing up and adding cast members and making
Speaker 1: us go on locations. Later seasons we had Clark Duke
Speaker 1: and Jake Lacey. Yeah exactly. Um, Yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: was really smart. I mean, you know, I think Rashida
Speaker 1: and Ed Helms, like two of the greatest comedy actors
Speaker 1: of all time coming in was a really needed breath
Speaker 1: of fresh air in that third season and really helped
Speaker 1: us a lot. And I think Ellie Kemper, who has
Speaker 1: proven herself to be one of the great comedians UH
Speaker 1: television personalities, bringing her in in season five or six
Speaker 1: or whenever it was, um really helped the show as well.
Speaker 1: So he was very adept about that, as as he
Speaker 1: is in all of his decision making. I consider you
Speaker 1: and Steve to be one of, if not the greatest
Speaker 1: comedy duos in the history of television. Wow, that's so
Speaker 1: sweet of you, Brian. Thank you. Shut up. I'm serious,
Speaker 1: I'm serious. That is very sweet of you. I do
Speaker 1: I I just kind of want to do a little
Speaker 1: deep dive into you and he working. How much did
Speaker 1: you talk about those scenes before you were in the
Speaker 1: room shooting. We never talked about scenes, never ever. Um,
Speaker 1: so you talk about the various skill sets that we
Speaker 1: brought to the equation as actors. So Steve was in
Speaker 1: Second City. He was kind of infamously great in Second City.
Speaker 1: He wrote a lot of their favorite best sketches. He
Speaker 1: toured with them, You've done the Dana Carvey Show, and
Speaker 1: he was just really well known and super highly respected
Speaker 1: and and truly like I've worked with a lot of
Speaker 1: amazing actors over the years before The Office and since
Speaker 1: the Office, I've never worked with anyone like him before.
Speaker 1: He can improvise like it's it's it's it's almost a
Speaker 1: crime to call it improvisation, because he can just be
Speaker 1: and speak as a character and it's both funny and
Speaker 1: and pathetic and sad and moving at the same time,
Speaker 1: and it was just a true honor and marvel to
Speaker 1: like watch him work and for me, like again I
Speaker 1: improvised pretty well, it's not really my bag. My bag
Speaker 1: is like creating memorable characters. That's how I think of
Speaker 1: myself as an Actor's like when I die and they
Speaker 1: show the little thing on the Emmys of the Academy Awards,
Speaker 1: I want people to go like, oh wow, he created
Speaker 1: a lot of really interesting memorable characters. But it was
Speaker 1: just about watching Steve go. So I thought of us
Speaker 1: as like, wow, these guys are the loudest podcast engineers
Speaker 1: I've ever heard in my life. Um, I'm just kidding,
Speaker 1: you know, It's okay, I'll show you how to turn
Speaker 1: the volume down on the computer. Though. The so I
Speaker 1: thought of us as like the vision that I had
Speaker 1: was like the image that I had, like we're just
Speaker 1: these different musicians, Like Steve is like this he's a
Speaker 1: violent player, or he's the Alto Sacks or something. It's
Speaker 1: like it's quick, it's mercurial, it's changing, and Dwight is
Speaker 1: kind of like a little more of the base. And
Speaker 1: also I thought part of Dwight's job, part of my
Speaker 1: job as an actor is just to keep him off
Speaker 1: balance just a little bit. So I would always vary
Speaker 1: my timings and sometimes just try and funk with him,
Speaker 1: and I'll just all of a sudden, say I could
Speaker 1: really go for some spaghetti right about now, and he
Speaker 1: would just never miss a beat. He would spin it
Speaker 1: into pure gold. So it was it was really a
Speaker 1: miraculous thing to watch. But I think that when a
Speaker 1: comedy duo is in sync there they know kind of
Speaker 1: what instruments they're playing. And Dwight, I think sometimes I
Speaker 1: would try and be the violin, but Dwight was never
Speaker 1: That's not his speed, it's not his rhythm. Um, he
Speaker 1: doesn't work in the same way. And it was also
Speaker 1: really great to just know, like, this is what Steve does.
Speaker 1: He does it better than anyone else, like on the planet,
Speaker 1: and I don't need to try and do that. I'll
Speaker 1: do my thing. My thing is to play kind of
Speaker 1: the big bass playing weirdo in the corner, you know.
Speaker 1: In opposition to that. Well, that was the thing that
Speaker 1: always amazed me, which was he would come in, you know,
Speaker 1: like in the conference room scenes. These are sides, by
Speaker 1: the way, these are fake sides, and he would be like,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like flipping through and like okay,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna move here, and we would rehearse for
Speaker 1: like an eight page scene for about six minutes, and
Speaker 1: then'd be like okay, everybody go get dressed and whatever.
Speaker 1: And then he would put on his suit and finish
Speaker 1: getting his makeup on, and he would walk back in
Speaker 1: and it was like boom. He was like fully there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But that's why I wondered if you and he ever
Speaker 1: talked through any more of those things. That was one
Speaker 1: of the things with Steve that I kind of saw
Speaker 1: really quick because I wanted to just be respectful to
Speaker 1: his process and whatnot, Like he did not want to
Speaker 1: work stuff out, He did not want to rehearse, he
Speaker 1: didn't want to like talk about it and and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. I mean he would if there was there
Speaker 1: needed to be a change in the writing, he would
Speaker 1: bring in Greg or Paul or or Jen or whomever
Speaker 1: and talk about, like could we change this. I feel
Speaker 1: like he would say this and needs to say something
Speaker 1: more like that. But as far as the acting, it's
Speaker 1: like it's off, boom starting gun, the horses are off
Speaker 1: and you you just go and worked really well. Right. Um,
Speaker 1: it occurred to me, one of the things that make
Speaker 1: made you and Steve so unique goes to not to
Speaker 1: dismiss this at all. You and John were hilarious together,
Speaker 1: but you were a much more classical duo. He was
Speaker 1: the straight man to you, whereas with you and Steve,
Speaker 1: you both were crazy idiots, right and still somehow it
Speaker 1: was made believable and real and hilariously funny without being
Speaker 1: a competition. It was really like an orchestra, Like you said, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is where we could talk shop a little bit,
Speaker 1: because I love the history of clown and of clowning.
Speaker 1: And it really started with the comedies of the ancient Greeks,
Speaker 1: you know, like Aristophanes the Frogs and some of those plays.
Speaker 1: What's the one where they all have boners, um they
Speaker 1: withhold sex from the man until the men stopped the war?
Speaker 1: Anyone blanking on the name anyway, So it all starts
Speaker 1: back then, and then swiftly moves to Comedia dell arte,
Speaker 1: which sprang out of you know, Roman theater that had
Speaker 1: these comic tropes and would travel all over Europe. And
Speaker 1: they always had the dopey clown like Kevin. They had
Speaker 1: like the weird, intense clown like Dwhite. There were these tropes,
Speaker 1: and basically all of comedy uh in the Western world
Speaker 1: I think is based off of those tropes, from comedy
Speaker 1: to Larte. They influenced obviously Moliere and then Shakespeare, Vaudeville
Speaker 1: and clown characters like that, then moved into you know,
Speaker 1: early radio and TV. You know, think about the Honeymooners
Speaker 1: and then the early sitcoms and Dick Van Dyke and
Speaker 1: Merritt Tyler Moore and then on into the later sitcoms,
Speaker 1: and this constantly evolving process of these archetypal kind of
Speaker 1: forms that I really view like Michael and Dwight, and
Speaker 1: Dwight and Jim as like two comic duos as being
Speaker 1: like inheritors of the history of comedy. I don't know
Speaker 1: exactly how they fit in um certainly, you know, Jim
Speaker 1: was like the young lover, although he had that great
Speaker 1: dead pan and got more laughs than anyone else could
Speaker 1: have gotten in that role with this you know, his
Speaker 1: looks to the camera and his long suffering nous and
Speaker 1: quick wittedness. But it's the it's the essence of clown.
Speaker 1: You studied clown as well, and physical theater and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. You And I know this might sound pretentious
Speaker 1: as hell to people, but I don't care for them.
Speaker 1: What how do you how do you feel like it
Speaker 1: it played into the clowns and the physical comedy of
Speaker 1: the Office. Absolutely, I mean I think primarily with Kevin
Speaker 1: and Dwight and Michael Um, but no, even Angela, Andy Bernard,
Speaker 1: those characters. Absolutely, we all might have had clown noses
Speaker 1: on when you think about it, totally, you could have
Speaker 1: put clown noses on all of the different characters. And
Speaker 1: even though it's a documentary and gritty and real and
Speaker 1: felt like in an office, like it was really happening
Speaker 1: documentary style. And that was one of the things that
Speaker 1: I said to Greg early on into the writer's room,
Speaker 1: like I really love physical comedy and I would really
Speaker 1: I think that Dwight really soars when he's doing physical comedy.
Speaker 1: I really want you to consider writing as much physical
Speaker 1: comedy for me as possible. And I do think that
Speaker 1: that's when you think of the Office, you think of
Speaker 1: like documentary uber real bad lighting, reactions looking at the
Speaker 1: camera and stuff like that. But you could do a
Speaker 1: compilation episode of the Office of like the physical comedy bits,
Speaker 1: you know, the fire episode, and Dwight with Jan's baby
Speaker 1: carriage or um parkour and all of this stuff, like
Speaker 1: even you having to give me a massage. Do you
Speaker 1: remember you climbing up on the wall. I was on
Speaker 1: my were on the filing cabinet behind you as I
Speaker 1: was doing that. So, um, there's a really a strong
Speaker 1: constant vein. Like every episode I would say had some
Speaker 1: at least one or two big bits of physical comedy
Speaker 1: and involving pain and getting hit and doors slammed in
Speaker 1: faces and whatnot, and that I don't think that gets
Speaker 1: quite enough props or attention from people. Well, and and
Speaker 1: even pretending to be a different character than you are, right,
Speaker 1: you a number of characters and Jim and me, And
Speaker 1: when Jim dresses is Dwight and says Bears beats Battlestar Galactica,
Speaker 1: and people always say, I want you to write Bears
Speaker 1: beats Battlestar Galactica or if I'm signing a picture or
Speaker 1: something like that, or say it or something like that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, Dwight actually never said that. In two episodes,
Speaker 1: Dwight never said Bears be It's Battlestar galact That was
Speaker 1: Jim as Dwight saying that, I don't say that. I'm
Speaker 1: not a perist nicketty asshole going wait said it. But
Speaker 1: people should realize that Dwight never actually said that. Wow,
Speaker 1: I would never have gotten that. I would I blew
Speaker 1: your mind. No, I never would have gotten that. Um okay,
Speaker 1: So you have this comedy duo with Steve. When did
Speaker 1: you find out he was leaving? Um? I knew that
Speaker 1: Steve was going to get out of there as soon
Speaker 1: as he possibly could because he had all of these
Speaker 1: movies that were wanting to pay him ten and fifteen
Speaker 1: million dollars a pop to go do. So of course
Speaker 1: he would like what you know. So, um, did you
Speaker 1: have reservations about the show existing beyond him? Yeah? I had.
Speaker 1: I had great reservations about the show existing without Steve.
Speaker 1: You know, did I think we were going to bomb
Speaker 1: and fail without Steve? Know, We're we going to be
Speaker 1: hurt by losing one of the greatest comedic actors of
Speaker 1: all time in the lead character? Of course, we were.
Speaker 1: No one thought otherwise. At the same time, we had
Speaker 1: a pretty damn great ensemble. You know, Ed Helms at
Speaker 1: the time was lead in Hangover, which was the biggest
Speaker 1: comedy ever made and we had him and he you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't think we needed like a Robert California or
Speaker 1: Cathy Bates or you know a lot of other like
Speaker 1: big names to bring in at that point. I think
Speaker 1: we had the ensemble. I wish the creators and I
Speaker 1: know they were doing a lot of battling with with
Speaker 1: NBC at the time because we were starting to slip
Speaker 1: in our ratings even before Steve left. It's not like
Speaker 1: we were just on a ratings bonanza all the way
Speaker 1: through Steve and then Steve left and we were declined.
Speaker 1: We were in decline for a good year or two
Speaker 1: with Steve there. But yeah, I knew it was gonna Um.
Speaker 1: I knew it was going to hurt us, and I
Speaker 1: knew it was also time for you know, all of
Speaker 1: us to step up in the ensemble and carry more weight.
Speaker 1: Um of anyone on set, who would be the most
Speaker 1: likely to be fired for an HR violation, Oh ouch,
Speaker 1: um boy, I would. I was first wanted to joke
Speaker 1: and say, oh, that would be me, because I told
Speaker 1: a lot of inappropriate jokes. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: oh boy, you've got me stumped on this one. At
Speaker 1: the same time, for some reason, I'm going to Creed
Speaker 1: because I would tell inappropriate jokes, but people could always
Speaker 1: tell like, oh, that's Rain telling a really inappropriate joke.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like Creed could tell one,
Speaker 1: and I imagine that certain people would kind of go, oh,
Speaker 1: he means it. He's actually going to chop up my
Speaker 1: body and put me in the trunk of his car
Speaker 1: or something like that. Or um, so I would say
Speaker 1: a tie between me and Creed. Maybe yeah, okay, I mean,
Speaker 1: would you go with that? I will, now that you
Speaker 1: said it was all about you, you would say things
Speaker 1: that I mean, my language can be horrendously bad. I've
Speaker 1: kept it together somewhat here, but you somehow would put
Speaker 1: combinations of vulgar words together in a way that even
Speaker 1: made me uncomfortable and looking around like who heard that?
Speaker 1: And are we in trouble? Oh my god? You know
Speaker 1: we made the show before all of this stuff, the
Speaker 1: me too and stuff like that. I hope I was
Speaker 1: never really I certainly was never demeaning to anybody or
Speaker 1: or cruel to anyone, um or you know, coming on
Speaker 1: to women in some weird ways. It was just like
Speaker 1: inappropriate jokes. But I heard about some other shows where
Speaker 1: people like off camera were like dropping their pants and
Speaker 1: showing their genitals to the person who's on the camera,
Speaker 1: and that would happen all the time, and everyone thought, oh,
Speaker 1: this is hysterical, you know, like all the quote unquote
Speaker 1: hysterical high jinks that would happen. That was really just
Speaker 1: straight harassment. That's what I always imagine people are wanting
Speaker 1: us to say about the pranks, like, oh, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I would. I would moon rain all the time off camera,
Speaker 1: and that was no. We never did anything like that. Um, Steve,
Speaker 1: And I'm going to talk to him about this, But Steve,
Speaker 1: he's been quoted and I don't know if it's been
Speaker 1: paraphrased or whatever, but there's something out there where he
Speaker 1: has said that The Office could not exist today because
Speaker 1: of the culture of political correctness that exists in television.
Speaker 1: Do you agree with that? Yeah, I think The Office
Speaker 1: would be a very different show. And I think that
Speaker 1: having a just colossally inappropriate boss who's making a lot
Speaker 1: of sexual jokes and innue windows and crossing lines and boundaries,
Speaker 1: we were sending up kind of a problem that was
Speaker 1: out there, an issue that was out there. We were
Speaker 1: shining light on it and poking at it. That what
Speaker 1: she said, and I do think it would be very
Speaker 1: problematic in this day and age. How how do you
Speaker 1: navigate that? Even if the guy is supposed to be
Speaker 1: an asshole, how do you navigate him saying just sexist
Speaker 1: stuff and racist stuff and it's coming out of his
Speaker 1: mouth and he's just not aware, you know, it would
Speaker 1: have I agree with Steve, I don't think you could
Speaker 1: do it. I disagree with both of you. I can't.
Speaker 1: It makes no sense to me. He took off his glasses.
Speaker 1: He's getting in the sense. It makes no no, no.
Speaker 1: But see I just keep thinking he's been paraphrased incorrectly.
Speaker 1: But then now you just endorsed it. How can what
Speaker 1: is now the most watch show and television you're telling
Speaker 1: me an executive is going to turn that down? The
Speaker 1: potential for that down. Yeah. But this is what I'm
Speaker 1: saying is that there would be a backlash, for instance,
Speaker 1: Diversity Day if you had a show right now that
Speaker 1: was starting out, you know, not The not The Office,
Speaker 1: that's a big hit show. If there was a show
Speaker 1: that was starting out and had a Diversity Day episode,
Speaker 1: and people we're saying, like try make Google googi to
Speaker 1: an Indian person and if they were saying I can't drive,
Speaker 1: are you Asian? Or are you a woman? And like
Speaker 1: you were saying, rama rosta man, I'm doing like like
Speaker 1: and people were doing that stuff like, there would be
Speaker 1: a lot of angry people on social media saying like,
Speaker 1: this is inappropriate, this is it's having a laugh at
Speaker 1: these stereotypes. Yes, it's sending them up, but we need
Speaker 1: to get out of this and we cannot continue to participate,
Speaker 1: and there would be a huge backlash against it. So
Speaker 1: I'm not saying, like, could you do The Office the
Speaker 1: Office now? But a show like The Office could never
Speaker 1: take off right now because if it tried to play
Speaker 1: in the world of what's inappropriate, people just don't have
Speaker 1: a sense of humor about it. And partially for good
Speaker 1: reason and an understandable reason, and partially partially not will
Speaker 1: you play them the Pam thing? I thought it was
Speaker 1: weird when you picked us to make a documentary, But
Speaker 1: all in all, I think an ordinary paper company like
Speaker 1: dunder Mifflin was a great subject for a documentary. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that kind
Speaker 1: of the point? So to me, that is what Greg
Speaker 1: says that it was all about. Is that what you
Speaker 1: think it was all about? Um? Yeah, beauty of ordinary things.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sound pretentious again, and I'm gonna take us
Speaker 1: back to the theater. But really, my favorite theater artist
Speaker 1: of all time was Anton Chekov the play right, and
Speaker 1: Chekhov was one of the first, if not the first,
Speaker 1: that really saw the beauty in ordinary things and in
Speaker 1: ordinary people, and those when you define what a Jacovian
Speaker 1: moment is, it's a profound moment that's very simple, where
Speaker 1: hearts are broken over a teacup being passed around or
Speaker 1: what's not said, or a longing, and has some kind
Speaker 1: of physical manifestation. So I think, at its best, I
Speaker 1: think The Office was Jacovan in that sense where there
Speaker 1: was a beauty found in ordinary things. And Chekhov's work
Speaker 1: has suffused so much of what's happened in theater, TV
Speaker 1: and film for the last hundred and twenty years. You know,
Speaker 1: when you think about dramedy like the word dramedy half
Speaker 1: drama half comedy, like he was the first, you know,
Speaker 1: you might argue that some of Shakespeare's romance plays kind
Speaker 1: of it in that spectrum that they really didn't He
Speaker 1: was really the first that was like, I don't know
Speaker 1: whether to laugh or cry. And now I'm gonna laugh
Speaker 1: a little bit and I'm gonna cry a little bit,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna laugh and cry a little bit, and
Speaker 1: it's just gonna ride that line between buffoonery and heartbreak.
Speaker 1: And I think Greg and the writing staff and the
Speaker 1: cast and the directors really knew how to how to
Speaker 1: milk that, you know. They The example I always give
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite moments was directed by Paul Lieberstein,
Speaker 1: who I think is an amazing director, um and a
Speaker 1: great writer and who played Toby obviously. UM. I think
Speaker 1: it was in the episode Money and it's Dwight and
Speaker 1: Jim in the stairwell. Dwight is heartbroken over Angela and
Speaker 1: Jim gives him some advice and I forget what it
Speaker 1: was even um, but Jim gives dwighte some really heartfelt
Speaker 1: advice like you'll get over it, or you go tell
Speaker 1: her you lover or something like that, something about Angela.
Speaker 1: And then Dwight has got his head down in his
Speaker 1: hands and Jim slips away, and that that's the spy
Speaker 1: shot of the camera down the stairs. And then Dwight
Speaker 1: reaches out with his left arm as if he would
Speaker 1: have put his arm around Jim and like hugged, and
Speaker 1: it would have been like their first hug ever. And
Speaker 1: Jim's not there, and he kind of it looks around
Speaker 1: and and it's this awkward moment. But I always think like,
Speaker 1: if Jim hadn't left, and if Dwight had just put
Speaker 1: his arm around Jim, like they might have bonded in
Speaker 1: a way that wouldn't have allowed the show to go
Speaker 1: on because they wouldn't have been the nemesis to each other.
Speaker 1: They would have like connected too deeply, and you can't
Speaker 1: have that on the show. You want to have them
Speaker 1: episode after episode after episode not connecting. Um. But to me,
Speaker 1: it's like that little moment like defined what the office was.
Speaker 1: It had absurdity to it, reality to it. At the
Speaker 1: same time it was based in heartbreak and then it
Speaker 1: twisted into something kind of peculiar and odd and awkward.
Speaker 1: That's really smart. But no, I mean, you're pretty smart.
Speaker 1: I'm smart guying. You know you're um. Obviously you started
Speaker 1: Soul Pancake two thousand eight. You're very spiritual person. That's
Speaker 1: important to you. Yeah, what or utual person who tells
Speaker 1: really inappropriate jokes are the worst, the worst. I don't um.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there was a good that came
Speaker 1: from the show. Yeah, So, you know, my my spiritual
Speaker 1: life and and that world is, like you mentioned, is
Speaker 1: important to me, you know, prayer and meditation and thinking
Speaker 1: about you know, life's big questions and our purpose here
Speaker 1: and how we can be of service to one another,
Speaker 1: how I can make myself a better person. All of
Speaker 1: these big spiritual questions occupy some time and space with me.
Speaker 1: So I truly believe that at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: we weren't kind of trying to do this. But I
Speaker 1: do believe that The Office was a spiritual show. You know,
Speaker 1: anytime I'm kind of recognized, people will say thank you
Speaker 1: for the show. It meant so much to me my
Speaker 1: parents were getting a divorce, or my little brotherhood cancer,
Speaker 1: and we would watch it together and we would cry.
Speaker 1: It got me through some of the hardest times. I
Speaker 1: mean every day, like people right into my Facebook like
Speaker 1: it got me through such hard times. I was going
Speaker 1: through depression, I was anxiety and disease issues whatever, mental
Speaker 1: health issues, and the Office got me through that. And
Speaker 1: I think that The reason that The Office has lasted
Speaker 1: the way it has is it because all great television
Speaker 1: is unlikely families, and it's the most unlikely family, and
Speaker 1: you love to be with that family. You there's something
Speaker 1: really soothing about showing up hearing that theme song. You're
Speaker 1: in that office with these characters that you love. You
Speaker 1: want to cohabitate with them, you want to work in
Speaker 1: the office with them. I've talked to so many young
Speaker 1: people that have said, I want to work in an
Speaker 1: office just like in dunder Mifflin. They're like thinking somehow
Speaker 1: that out in the workaday world, that it's going to
Speaker 1: be even remotely like the Office, the most wrongheaded thing
Speaker 1: known demand. But yeah, I think we made something that
Speaker 1: ultimately made people laugh at their minds, off their problems.
Speaker 1: That brought a lot of like comedy and warmth and
Speaker 1: heart and connection, and that's really what people need now,
Speaker 1: and so they're they're watching the show. It's not a
Speaker 1: cynical show at the end of the day. It's people
Speaker 1: that do love each other, as weird as it is,
Speaker 1: and it's been a positive force in the world. I
Speaker 1: didn't doubt that when we're making it, But I didn't
Speaker 1: even really think about that when we're making it. But
Speaker 1: the heart of the show, the heart of Greg Daniels,
Speaker 1: heart of all the actors and the writers kind of
Speaker 1: has lasted. What are you the most thankful for? Um,
Speaker 1: the house that The Office bought me? Now, um, no,
Speaker 1: I'm but that's fair. Oh yeah, no, I yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I had been a struggling actor. You know, I got
Speaker 1: out of acting school nine something like that. So here
Speaker 1: I am in two thousand four starting to do the Office.
Speaker 1: So fourteen years of struggling to kind of pay the
Speaker 1: rent and then all of a sudden, you know, I
Speaker 1: had a an actual career. It opened a lot of
Speaker 1: doors for me. I got to do some cool movie
Speaker 1: stuff and work with a lot of cool people and
Speaker 1: be involved in some cool enterprises because of it. And
Speaker 1: I'm super grateful for that. But yeah, I'm I'm most
Speaker 1: grateful for the fact that we made a gift for
Speaker 1: audiences that I think it'll be around for a long time.
Speaker 1: Why why is that? Though? I Mean, we've talked about
Speaker 1: all of these elements that went into creating the show
Speaker 1: and why we think it's special and what makes it
Speaker 1: unique and that, But why now are eleven twelve year
Speaker 1: old fourteen year old kids watching this show over something else. Well,
Speaker 1: there's so many reasons. We've been over a lot of Um, sure,
Speaker 1: it's an unlikely family that is formed. Um, they're relatable characters.
Speaker 1: You want to hang out with them. But I also
Speaker 1: think it's and Greg always said, like it's funny, but
Speaker 1: ten percent kind of truthful in moving And if you
Speaker 1: stay on that, you don't want to go more than
Speaker 1: ten percent because then it starts to get sentimental and modeling.
Speaker 1: But it just has that ten percent per episode of
Speaker 1: of reality, of truth, of of of real connection that
Speaker 1: that grounds the show, that gives it a lot of heart.
Speaker 1: But also like the style of the comedy, it never
Speaker 1: tells you when to laugh or that you have to laugh.
Speaker 1: There's no laugh track. You can choose to laugh at
Speaker 1: something or not. You know, someone can look at the camera.
Speaker 1: Some people can find it hysterical, some people won't. Maybe
Speaker 1: the third time you watch it you do find it
Speaker 1: hysterical and you hadn't the previous time, So you're finding
Speaker 1: a lot of those details. We talked about the detail
Speaker 1: that went into positioning the cameras and how you're going
Speaker 1: to shoot stuff and get reaction shots and so I
Speaker 1: also think there's a great amount of detail in there,
Speaker 1: so it stands up on repeated watchings where a lot
Speaker 1: of other shows may not because the jokes are kind
Speaker 1: of hit a little harder. Um. There's so many reasons,
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, I have to
Speaker 1: think it's just the heart. I mean, I think people
Speaker 1: just loved those characters and they just feel like they're
Speaker 1: a de facto family. Okay, there's been fifteen years since
Speaker 1: we shot the pilot. Yep, who shot the pilot? This
Speaker 1: is about Rain? Okay, Rain Wilson, here we go. Do
Speaker 1: you consider your old coworkers family or friends? Remember you
Speaker 1: can choose your friends, but now your family. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's a profound question. You found a life's big question
Speaker 1: packed into packed into the office. God, that's sets such
Speaker 1: a good Um. I don't know. I guess I would
Speaker 1: answer it like Michael Scott and he would say, as
Speaker 1: the office cast, my family is the office cast. My friends,
Speaker 1: I think they're my family. You're a jackass. You're a jackass.
Speaker 1: Do you want me to be more? Sincerely? No? No?
Speaker 1: Are you kidding? I love that? So that's good, jackass.
Speaker 1: Let me let me ask you one more thing. So
Speaker 1: in doing research for this podcast, I found out that
Speaker 1: fifty two point one billion billion minutes we're streamed in alone.
Speaker 1: Dear lord, I guess this is average lifespan over a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand people watching it for their entire life. What,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's nuts. People just need to get
Speaker 1: a life, I mean, listeners, I love you all, thank
Speaker 1: you for watching the Office. But there's so much us
Speaker 1: to do. Read a fucking book people written by Rain Wilson. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I actually I have written to So there's there's a
Speaker 1: couple I have. Jenna has written a book and b
Speaker 1: j has to read only books by the Office cast.
Speaker 1: Listen to this podcast and read books by people from
Speaker 1: the Office, from the and by our merchandise. All right, Rain,
Speaker 1: I love you, I love you Brian baum Gartner, and
Speaker 1: I've missed you so much I hardly ever see you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on this show. This promises to
Speaker 1: be really exciting and cool. I'm so excited for this thing.
Speaker 1: You started to sound like you were being sarcastic, and
Speaker 1: then you and then you turn genuine halfway very I'm
Speaker 1: very that's kind of my thing is like, am I sarcastic?
Speaker 1: Am I being a dick or am I being genuine
Speaker 1: kind of writing that line? And yeah, okay, suck my balls. Okay, bye,
Speaker 1: all right guys. That is it. Mr Rain Wilson. I
Speaker 1: hope that you had as much fun listening to that,
Speaker 1: to that conversation as I had having it. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's not quite right, but whatever, I enjoyed
Speaker 1: that so much. Huge thanks to Rain for joining me
Speaker 1: and talking to me, and bigger forget Rain, bigger thanks
Speaker 1: to you for listening. I will be back next week
Speaker 1: with more of the goods. We're gonna go deeper, We're
Speaker 1: gonna go bigger, We're gonna go dive here. I don't know,
Speaker 1: we know. I don't know numbers. I don't know words either, apparently,
Speaker 1: but we'll see you next week. The Office. Deep Dive
Speaker 1: is hosted an executive produce used by me Brian Baumgartner,
Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our
Speaker 1: assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the
Speaker 1: booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak,
Speaker 1: performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode
Speaker 1: was mixed by seth Olandski.