WEBVTT - Brian Schneider

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Today I am joined by Brian Schneider. Brian has been

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<v Speaker 1>a longtime associate for Renaissance Golf Tom Doaks Design Firm.

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<v Speaker 1>He's worked on a number of high profile projects there

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<v Speaker 1>as well as consulted with many of the country's best clubs.

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<v Speaker 1>He has also done some individual design work. He and

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<v Speaker 1>some other Renaissance associates which we talk about, designed Stoton

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<v Speaker 1>Bray and recently he's done a redesign of the front

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<v Speaker 1>nine at Lanark Country Club in Philadelphia. One quick note

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<v Speaker 1>before we get into the podcast. We have a collection

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<v Speaker 1>of photos up on the website of Banded Dunes. There's

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<v Speaker 1>Banded Dunes, Pacific Dunes, a Pacific Trails, and the New

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<v Speaker 1>Sheep Ranch. All the proceeds from those photos sales go

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<v Speaker 1>to the Bandon Caddy Relief Fund, So that is going

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<v Speaker 1>to a good cause helping the newyear. Three hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty caddies that have been out of work for a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of weeks now a handful of week so obviously

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<v Speaker 1>a good cause in keeping them on their feet during

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<v Speaker 1>this tough time that everybody's going through. I hope everybody

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<v Speaker 1>is safe and well and hopefully better times are coming.

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<v Speaker 1>And without further ado, here is Brian Schneider.

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<v Speaker 2>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when

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<v Speaker 2>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I find my.

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<v Speaker 2>Ball in a bright egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida

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<v Speaker 2>egg Frida egg egg egg Frida egg bride egg lie,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about ready to run.

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<v Speaker 1>Off the gump stuff looks cool at North Jersey.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a neat place.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a really neat place, and they've got i

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<v Speaker 2>think seven original greens left.

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<v Speaker 3>Which are all gorgeous, pretty wild, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>The other eleven have been rebuilt at various times and

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<v Speaker 2>aren't so interesting. But the club has been looking to

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<v Speaker 2>put that stuff back, so there's a lot of work

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<v Speaker 2>to do there eventually.

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<v Speaker 3>But we just got into a little bit of bunker work,

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<v Speaker 3>which was fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it didn't have any It only had like twenty

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<v Speaker 2>bunkers to begin with. It's a rocky, hilly piece of

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<v Speaker 2>ground and didn't need much, so he didn't build any

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<v Speaker 2>bunkers there. So they've got like fifty five now. Most

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<v Speaker 2>of what we'll do with the bunkers just taking stuff out.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it hard to convince people to take bunkers out?

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<v Speaker 3>It hasn't been there, you know. But I'm not exposed

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<v Speaker 3>to the membership in a hole.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there may be a bunch of people behind

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<v Speaker 2>the scenes saying he's going to make it too easy,

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<v Speaker 2>this is gonna be boring, But the people I'm dealing

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<v Speaker 2>with are really excited, and you know, the superintendent is

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<v Speaker 2>obviously excited that he's going to have fewer bunkers to

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<v Speaker 2>take care of. It just doesn't need them, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of the stuff is just clutter at this

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<v Speaker 2>point there. They're really unnecessary to the bunkers that were

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<v Speaker 2>put in originally or plenty, and some of those.

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<v Speaker 3>Might even be necessary, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but like that where it's rocky and you've got

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<v Speaker 2>good topo, it really doesn't need bunkers, you know. And

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<v Speaker 2>we've added some short grass around the probably more difficult

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<v Speaker 2>for better players than if they missed in a bunker.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's a great set of the originals are great greens,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's it's got enough topography to be interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>It doesn't need a whole lot of bunkering.

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<v Speaker 1>Do they have a lot of photos old photos of

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<v Speaker 1>the non original greens.

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<v Speaker 2>Not really, No, that's the hard part. I've been digging.

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<v Speaker 2>My green chairman Ken Feren, has been doing a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of digging and he's come up with some great old picks.

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<v Speaker 2>But unfortunately, you know, they didn't host any USGA events

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<v Speaker 2>or any important events back in the day, which seems

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<v Speaker 2>to be the key to having a bunch of ground

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<v Speaker 2>level pictures taken. So we're struggling to find old stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>And the golf course evolved a lot early on, so

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<v Speaker 2>pinning down a period we want to go back to

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<v Speaker 2>a little tricky too. We've got a couple of decent

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<v Speaker 2>ground level pictures of what the bunkers looked like to

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<v Speaker 2>go from, and we've got vague ideas and recollections of

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<v Speaker 2>a few of the greens. But I think when we

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<v Speaker 2>get around to it, we'll just have to build something

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<v Speaker 2>that looks and feels like Travis maybe still an ideas

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<v Speaker 2>from its other golf courses.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that is that basically what you do when you

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<v Speaker 1>don't have you look at the courses you visited and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I love the screen from here, let's do

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<v Speaker 1>something similar to that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think, so, you know, I haven't been in that

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<v Speaker 3>situation all that much.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, most of my consulting clients still have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of their original greens, so North Jersey's unusual and

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<v Speaker 2>that they've lost more than half of them. But that's

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<v Speaker 2>my approach there, you know, I first just try to

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<v Speaker 2>find out everything we can about what was there, including

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<v Speaker 2>talking to members that might remember how they used to

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<v Speaker 2>play and that sort of thing. Yeah, I'm just trying

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<v Speaker 2>to find out as much as I can about the

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<v Speaker 2>old greens that used to be there, and then match

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<v Speaker 2>that up with something I might have seen that one

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<v Speaker 2>of his other golf courses and use that as inspiration.

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<v Speaker 1>What, uh you I know, Hollywood was a big influence

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<v Speaker 1>in your love of Travis. What are some of your

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<v Speaker 1>other favorite, uh, Walter Travis courses that obviously a garden

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<v Speaker 1>city and Hollywood you've worked on, but that you've seen

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<v Speaker 1>in recent years.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Hollywood was was the one that really opened my eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>That in the country Club at Scranton. You know, I

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<v Speaker 2>saw that probably ten years ago for the first time.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if you've been up there, but

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<v Speaker 2>they've got fifteen original greens that are as good as

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<v Speaker 2>any set of greens in the country, and they are phenomenal,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, from pretty subtle rippolice stuff on the ground

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<v Speaker 2>to really wild severe you know, some fallaway stuff. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's a beautiful set of greens and the routing is

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<v Speaker 2>pretty well intact. They we did the bunkers a few

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<v Speaker 2>years back, which they didn't try to restore anything in

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<v Speaker 2>that process, but the greens there are amazing.

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<v Speaker 3>So between that in Hollywood, those are the places that

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<v Speaker 3>really lit the fire. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Cape Rundle's an amazing place. Chruce Hepner has done a

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<v Speaker 2>great job of helping them restore and preserve that golf course.

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<v Speaker 2>You know they've got you know, that one's really well

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<v Speaker 2>intact as well as any I would.

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<v Speaker 1>Say, that's what everybody can go see, which is you

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<v Speaker 1>know it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It's such a cool place, you know, it's it's packed

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<v Speaker 2>into a really tidy grage. I don't even know what

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<v Speaker 2>power is, but it's a tiny golf course, but there's

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<v Speaker 2>plenty of golf there for anyone.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, that's that's America's North Barrack.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just funky and quirky and fun, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>such a cool vibe. And you're right, anybody can go

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<v Speaker 2>play there and run into a president.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I come up with like a list of five

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<v Speaker 1>courses I want to see every year, and that one's

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<v Speaker 1>been on it for three years. It's just like I

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<v Speaker 1>just have to get up there. And now, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>with what's going on in the world, this is uh,

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<v Speaker 1>this year might get washed out of it too. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's uh, that one, I guess is high on my

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<v Speaker 1>list of places to see. I'm curious about. You know, everybody, Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>this great set of greens, great set of greens. What

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<v Speaker 1>when you're trying to still down what makes a great

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<v Speaker 1>set of greens into like, you know why?

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<v Speaker 3>Why?

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<v Speaker 1>The key features or principles of what makes in your

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<v Speaker 1>mind a great set of greens at a golf.

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<v Speaker 3>Course a couple of things. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>The first thing that pops into my mind is, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just the shots around the green when you miss agree,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the shots into the greens. You know, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people talk about strategy and how the green

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<v Speaker 2>sets up. You know, if the pins back here, you

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<v Speaker 2>want to drive it right so you can get at

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<v Speaker 2>that whole location and that sort of thing, and that's great,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, having a variety of whole locations within a

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<v Speaker 2>green that dictate or suggests different strategies from day to

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<v Speaker 2>day is a great thing, especially at a members club, But

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people don't hit greens very often, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>And and if it's boring when you miss agree, and

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<v Speaker 2>even if the strategy is interesting off the tee and

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<v Speaker 2>setting up the approach shot, you know, if there's not

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<v Speaker 2>something interesting to do once you miss agree, then it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't really hold your attention long term, especially again at

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<v Speaker 2>a members club where you're playing every day. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think you know the variety of shots around the green,

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<v Speaker 2>so that missing right is different than missing left is

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<v Speaker 2>different than missing short, is missing long, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>where you want to miss the green changes from day

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<v Speaker 2>to day as well.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's important to me.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the big things is variety throughout the set

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<v Speaker 2>of greens, so you know, it's not eighteen of a

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<v Speaker 2>type from beginning to end, that you come across a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit of everything. And when you walk off the

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<v Speaker 2>eighteenth green and are driving home afterwards, you can remember

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the greens individually that they don't just

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<v Speaker 2>blend together as a set.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm trying to think.

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<v Speaker 2>Of places like that, you know, Indian Wood, the old

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<v Speaker 2>course of Indian Wood in Michigan. I remember going walking

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<v Speaker 2>around there years ago. You know, you get to the

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<v Speaker 2>first green, Wow, this is really cool green. The second green, Man,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a really cool green. By the time you're

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<v Speaker 2>halfway through, I sensed a pattern, but this is a

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<v Speaker 2>really neat green. It's so cool that they did it

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen times. Then eighteen is totally different there. But there

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<v Speaker 2>are some greens like that where you know, you always

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<v Speaker 2>have to miss short or you know, they all slope

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<v Speaker 2>back to front, even if they have cool conjour. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of courses like that where the

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<v Speaker 2>greens individually are great, but as a set, you're not

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<v Speaker 2>running into something different from hole to hole.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you're talking about maybe a set of greens

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<v Speaker 1>that they're all, you know, severely sloped back to front,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know they and I think obviously certain construction

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<v Speaker 1>methods would lend themselves to certain types of slopes, like

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, the the push up, the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the big bold features of a Langford Barreau green. The

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<v Speaker 1>big edges make it tough to have fallaway greens. Yep,

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<v Speaker 1>And that might be a criticism of of of theirs.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, wing foot's another example that pops into

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<v Speaker 2>my head the West Course. It's you know, that's a

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<v Speaker 2>great set of greens really, but you know, if you

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<v Speaker 2>miss short eighteen times there, you've done pretty well. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't be missing right or left at wing foot

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<v Speaker 2>all day long and you're in for a long day.

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<v Speaker 2>Seminoles kind of the same way. Yeah, And to your

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<v Speaker 2>point Langford Moreau, you know Banks rainer to a certain degree.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, missing right and left is trouble and long

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<v Speaker 2>in a lot of cases, you know that the miss

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<v Speaker 2>is all the smartness is almost always short.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I think the best sets.

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<v Speaker 2>Of greens have more right in that and where you

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<v Speaker 2>want to miss, including long. Garden City has a handful

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<v Speaker 2>of greens we're missing along is the good miss and

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<v Speaker 2>that you don't see very often.

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<v Speaker 3>But that's really cool. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the thing that is cool about that is

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<v Speaker 1>it's that idea of counterintuitiveness and also tricking like it

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<v Speaker 1>where it doesn't reveal itself upon the first play. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of times you learn after you've played it at

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<v Speaker 1>least once, maybe a handful of times, where the best

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<v Speaker 1>place to miss, like you know, certain greens is missing short.

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<v Speaker 1>Something that jumps to mind is like the Stonewall North

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<v Speaker 1>the first green is if you miss short there. I

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<v Speaker 1>played there a few years ago in the midam, and

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<v Speaker 1>I remember I hit a bad drive and I had

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<v Speaker 1>a chip and I had this thirty yard pitch to

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<v Speaker 1>the and it was downwind, and I'm just like, oh

0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:30.840
<v Speaker 1>my god, this is the worst place I could be,

0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.439
<v Speaker 1>you know, because it's just rocketing away. But the only

0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:36.360
<v Speaker 1>way you know that is if you've played it a

0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:38.400
<v Speaker 1>handful of times. And that's something I picked up on

0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.360
<v Speaker 1>my practice round, because you're just going through it and

0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.840
<v Speaker 1>you're you know, you hit it in there, and you

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.000
<v Speaker 1>know if you didn't hit it short, you don't really know.

0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:53.600
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes, yeah, the majority of amateurs miss short unintentionally. You

0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.160
<v Speaker 3>know that they rarely get past the hole. You know

0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.520
<v Speaker 3>that applies to prose to but to a much lesser degree.

0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.520
<v Speaker 3>But most amateurs never get past the hole.

0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.760
<v Speaker 2>So making past the hole the place to miss is,

0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:12.760
<v Speaker 2>to your point, really the counterintuitive and probably uncomfortable for

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people, which is why people may have

0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:16.200
<v Speaker 2>an aversion to fall away.

0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:16.920
<v Speaker 3>Greens or one of the reasons.

0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.439
<v Speaker 2>But you know that the original Dan at North Barrack,

0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:22.920
<v Speaker 2>anytime I play that hole I'm taking an extra club

0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:23.480
<v Speaker 2>and trying.

0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:24.319
<v Speaker 3>To pull it long left.

0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.439
<v Speaker 2>If I don't hit the green, I've got a reasonable

0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:28.800
<v Speaker 2>chance of getting up and down from back there.

0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:30.160
<v Speaker 3>You miss anywhere else in your debt.

0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.679
<v Speaker 1>I think, But I think that's interesting and a lot

0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.040
<v Speaker 1>of times I feel like people will label greens unfair

0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:44.920
<v Speaker 1>that are ones that require thought and sometimes multiple players

0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.120
<v Speaker 1>to understand how to play them. Do you do you

0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:48.520
<v Speaker 1>feel that as an architect?

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes yeah, I think you're right, and you hit on

0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.600
<v Speaker 2>the problem is that a lot of people, especially nowadays,

0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people when they're traveling to play golf,

0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.640
<v Speaker 2>they're traveling somewhere once and then going somewhere else the

0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:08.640
<v Speaker 2>next time, and somewhere else the next time, and apart

0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.040
<v Speaker 2>from the place you play most often, you know, you're

0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 2>not getting a chance to learn the nuances of a

0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:17.600
<v Speaker 2>lot of the places you play when you're just balancing

0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:18.600
<v Speaker 2>around from one to another.

0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.640
<v Speaker 3>And you know, a place like St. Andrew's takes dozens

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 3>or hundreds of rounds to really reveal itself and to be.

0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 2>To allow you to get the most out of the

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.840
<v Speaker 2>playing experience. You know, I feel bad for people that

0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.120
<v Speaker 2>go to St. Andrews once and their caddy points at

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.480
<v Speaker 2>something in the distance top every tee and tells him

0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 2>where to hit the shots, because it's such a complex

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.600
<v Speaker 2>place that only gets more interesting and more fun the

0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:47.240
<v Speaker 2>more you get to know it. But that's not the

0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 2>way a lot of people play golf these days. But

0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.880
<v Speaker 2>you're right, the subtlety takes time to understand, and it

0:14:54.880 --> 0:15:00.320
<v Speaker 2>takes more than one round to appreciate your question about unfair.

0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:02.200
<v Speaker 3>People.

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Demon Green's unfair made me think of a around. I

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.320
<v Speaker 2>played at Hollywood a couple of years ago.

0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:10.640
<v Speaker 3>Have you been there? I don't know if you've bet

0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:11.280
<v Speaker 3>I haven't.

0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.520
<v Speaker 1>Also one of my one of my courses on my list.

0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 3>Good good, hope you got a big list?

0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, I do five. I set up five because I

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 1>feel like that's a reasonable number that I could actually

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.040
<v Speaker 1>achieve in a year. And then, you know, five means

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:30.680
<v Speaker 1>there's a bunch around the five.

0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:33.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the five you finally said thirty more.

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, it's like five, but then it's the surrounding

0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 1>area included.

0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:41.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 2>I played Hollywood a couple years ago with with a

0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 2>great amateur player too really but a great mid am

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and a great junior player, and we got to the

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:59.520
<v Speaker 2>seventh hole, which is a really good mid length Part five,

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.560
<v Speaker 2>which those guys played essentially is a mid length Part four.

0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.680
<v Speaker 3>You know, both hit long drives, both had mid irons

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.640
<v Speaker 3>in if I remember right. But the green is really.

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.640
<v Speaker 2>Kind of deep and narrow and angles from front right

0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 2>uphill to the back left and it's like four tiers.

0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.600
<v Speaker 2>The back tier is really tiny, and they'd put the

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.160
<v Speaker 2>pin in the back that day and it probably falls

0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, six or seven feet from back to front,

0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:32.440
<v Speaker 2>like if you missed long.

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:32.760
<v Speaker 3>You're dead.

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:34.880
<v Speaker 2>And of course the mid am kind of blocked his

0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:36.680
<v Speaker 2>t shot out to the right. It did a really

0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.880
<v Speaker 2>good shot from over there and ended up in the

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 2>rough past the hole and was debt, you know, had nothing,

0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 2>and proceeded his next shot kind of loosely trickled off

0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 2>the front of the green and was pitching back up

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the hill with his fourth and walked off just shaking

0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.360
<v Speaker 2>his head, like, you know, what a stupid green. You know,

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:57.880
<v Speaker 2>I really liked the golf course so far, but that

0:16:57.920 --> 0:16:58.520
<v Speaker 2>great is stupid.

0:16:58.560 --> 0:16:59.360
<v Speaker 3>That whole sucks.

0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, It's like number one, it's apart five you

0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 2>just hit six or a seven iron into and number

0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:07.440
<v Speaker 2>two you missed in the one play place you couldn't

0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.800
<v Speaker 2>miss and if you ever played it again, you would know,

0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:11.840
<v Speaker 2>can't be.

0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.199
<v Speaker 3>Above the hole on that on that hole. But you

0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:16.600
<v Speaker 3>know his.

0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.879
<v Speaker 2>Judgment was that green stupid. They should blow that up.

0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.400
<v Speaker 2>I hate this course because of that kind of thing.

0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, it wasn't his fault at all. It was

0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.920
<v Speaker 2>the Gulfs. But it is interesting how people find something

0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:29.919
<v Speaker 2>else to blame as opposed to thinking about it for

0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.960
<v Speaker 2>a second and realizing they couldn't missed anywhere else.

0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:39.840
<v Speaker 1>It's I think it partially stems from, you know, the

0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.720
<v Speaker 1>how America the main format of the game's stroke play

0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:46.720
<v Speaker 1>versus match play.

0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:54.120
<v Speaker 2>I agree, Yeah, I think that I don't keep scoring ever,

0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:55.920
<v Speaker 2>But I think you're right.

0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.160
<v Speaker 3>I think you know, if you would have just.

0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:00.760
<v Speaker 2>Lost the hole there and it woul a you know,

0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.080
<v Speaker 2>it was a casual match and was competing for anything.

0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:04.560
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, if you're in a match with somebody and

0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.680
<v Speaker 2>you have to take a seven when you're hoping to

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.320
<v Speaker 2>make a four, it's a little harder to swallow than

0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.399
<v Speaker 2>if you just lose one hold of the move on to.

0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:12.880
<v Speaker 3>The next one.

0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like in that situation.

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:20.720
<v Speaker 3>Different in America than in the UK certainly that situation.

0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if he makes a six and is the guy's

0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.520
<v Speaker 1>playing makes a four and he realized that, you know,

0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:26.959
<v Speaker 1>it was going to be really hard to get up

0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:30.000
<v Speaker 1>and down either way from back there for four, and

0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.800
<v Speaker 1>it's a completely different feeling walking off the green. And

0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.719
<v Speaker 1>that's you know, one of the things that I always say, Oh,

0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.239
<v Speaker 1>it's a great match play course, it would be a

0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.960
<v Speaker 1>terrible stroke play course, Like what does that even mean?

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.520
<v Speaker 3>You know, I'm curious about that too.

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a I haven't been to a Hoopie yet,

0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.359
<v Speaker 2>but you know it's certainly marketed as a match play

0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.280
<v Speaker 2>club in a match play golf course, and I can't

0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.520
<v Speaker 2>put the life and me understand really what that means

0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:01.080
<v Speaker 2>or what an architect would do differently if it was

0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.040
<v Speaker 2>if it was a stroke play club, for instance.

0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:04.920
<v Speaker 3>You know, I don't know what that means.

0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.960
<v Speaker 2>I think designing for magic play in general makes is

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.240
<v Speaker 2>a worthy goal that we shouldn't be designing for stroke

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.359
<v Speaker 2>play to begin with. So I'm curious what he did

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.200
<v Speaker 2>differently there that he wouldn't have done if it hadn't

0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.480
<v Speaker 2>been labeled to match play course.

0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.399
<v Speaker 1>So what he said to me was that he felt

0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.320
<v Speaker 1>he could he had a little bit more freedom on

0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.919
<v Speaker 1>the greens, which is kind of exactly what we're talking about,

0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 1>where he felt like he could he could build a

0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:37.439
<v Speaker 1>little bit more boldly, with a little bit more severe contours,

0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.600
<v Speaker 1>because nobody's gonna play ping pong and write and aid

0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:41.200
<v Speaker 1>on the card.

0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:44.880
<v Speaker 3>All right, I'll buy that.

0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:46.800
<v Speaker 1>That's that's what That's what he said.

0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.520
<v Speaker 3>At least. Okay, so that makes sense.

0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, you brought up the Old Course earlier, and

0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.440
<v Speaker 1>I was I was curious to say, you were with

0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:01.800
<v Speaker 1>somebody that knew nothing about golf ark attacture, beginning golfer,

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.960
<v Speaker 1>and you you were gonna you had the budget, you

0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:08.320
<v Speaker 1>could go to five courses to show them, you know,

0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:10.399
<v Speaker 1>kind of introduce them to the game of golf and

0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.439
<v Speaker 1>golf architecture. Where would you go?

0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.240
<v Speaker 3>The Old Course is certainly number one.

0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.239
<v Speaker 2>For a million reasons, but mostly because I think it's

0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:25.960
<v Speaker 2>still the most fun and interesting place in the world

0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.920
<v Speaker 2>to play, which to me is pretty remarkable.

0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.120
<v Speaker 3>You know, there aren't many things in.

0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:32.200
<v Speaker 1>This world.

0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.200
<v Speaker 2>That you can point to the first example and stay,

0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:38.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, six hundred years later, that's still the best

0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:41.840
<v Speaker 2>of its type. That absolutely nailed it. The first time around,

0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:43.480
<v Speaker 2>and I feel that way about the old course. I

0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>think it's magical that way, and it's it's such a

0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:52.360
<v Speaker 2>different style of golf that even six hundred years later,

0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:55.760
<v Speaker 2>no one else has quite been able to match the

0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.119
<v Speaker 2>style of golf do you find in Saint Andrews and

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:03.080
<v Speaker 2>it you know, it's a million so called rules of

0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.680
<v Speaker 2>modern architecture in the process. And I think that's important

0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:11.439
<v Speaker 2>for someone to understand when learning about architecture, is that

0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.320
<v Speaker 2>there there really aren't and shouldn't be many rules to

0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.120
<v Speaker 2>what you can do. And for that reason, I think

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.600
<v Speaker 2>North Bear can probably be another place I would take

0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 2>someone while you're there, you know, for all the odd, quirky,

0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:28.520
<v Speaker 2>weird things that you see there and don't see anywhere

0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 2>else that make that golf course as fun as any

0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:35.280
<v Speaker 2>place you could ever hope to play. And it's beautiful,

0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a beautiful spot. You're never more than

0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.000
<v Speaker 2>a par five from the ocean when you're playing there.

0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.919
<v Speaker 2>The wind is always blowing. People play quickly. There are

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:49.680
<v Speaker 2>a lot of lessons to be learned in North Barrick too.

0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:55.159
<v Speaker 3>Now it's a little tough, you know.

0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 2>The National obviously is probably my favorite golf course in

0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:03.160
<v Speaker 2>America and another place where you know. I wrote years

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.240
<v Speaker 2>ago that you can learn more in the first six

0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:07.520
<v Speaker 2>holes of the National that you can learn on any

0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:10.680
<v Speaker 2>golf course except for Saint Andrews, and I think that's true.

0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:12.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you go through the first six holes there,

0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:15.200
<v Speaker 2>you've got really a little bit of everything, and a

0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:19.760
<v Speaker 2>bunch of stuff most golfers had never seen before, and

0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 2>all works beautifully. It's so much fun to play, you know,

0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.800
<v Speaker 2>just the scale of the scale of the golf there,

0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:32.600
<v Speaker 2>the wild contouring of those greens. You know, the shortest

0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.080
<v Speaker 2>hole the golf course has. I don't think it's the

0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:36.760
<v Speaker 2>biggest green, but it's right up there, you know, the

0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:37.320
<v Speaker 2>sixth hole.

0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:40.440
<v Speaker 1>This is the scariest green.

0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:43.600
<v Speaker 3>It is, it's not. Yeah, it's great.

0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:47.080
<v Speaker 2>Each little target is really tiny, and the penalty for

0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:49.719
<v Speaker 2>missing where you want to be is can be pretty severe,

0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:52.040
<v Speaker 2>especially on the green in the wrong place.

0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:55.400
<v Speaker 1>That's that's an example of the green many people within

0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:56.520
<v Speaker 1>is unfair.

0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:00.440
<v Speaker 3>You're probably right, you're probably right. But it's so much fun. Oh,

0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:01.520
<v Speaker 3>it's so much fun.

0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.119
<v Speaker 2>And I can get your buddy when he's on the

0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:05.919
<v Speaker 2>wrong side of the wrong side of the green. You

0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:07.359
<v Speaker 2>know if he's on the right side and the holes

0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:09.680
<v Speaker 2>cut left. Just watching him try and get it anywhere close,

0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:09.919
<v Speaker 2>it's a.

0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:10.320
<v Speaker 3>Lot of fun.

0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:13.040
<v Speaker 1>The last time I played it, I uh, the pin

0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:17.960
<v Speaker 1>was right right in front of that bunker and I

0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:21.199
<v Speaker 1>came up like two yards short and it spins it

0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:24.520
<v Speaker 1>down and I'm in the front and I had this.

0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:26.600
<v Speaker 1>I looked at it. I looked at the putt and

0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:28.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking and I'm like, if I try and make this,

0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:31.479
<v Speaker 1>if it doesn't go in, it's going into the bunker.

0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:34.800
<v Speaker 1>And I ended up. I was like so happy. I

0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:37.320
<v Speaker 1>was like, I have to lay up, and I like

0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.640
<v Speaker 1>laid up to twelve feet and made the twelve foot

0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:43.439
<v Speaker 1>but I it was I was so I had so

0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:45.840
<v Speaker 1>much fun doing that. But so many people would say

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:49.040
<v Speaker 1>this is dumb, you know, and I felt such a

0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 1>like it felt like a birdie going to the next hole.

0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, trying to make the best score doesn't always mean

0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:56.399
<v Speaker 2>trying to make the next shot.

0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:56.720
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:59.280
<v Speaker 2>It's like, where can I leave this to give myself

0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:02.440
<v Speaker 2>the best of making a good score as opposed to

0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:05.160
<v Speaker 2>a terrible score. And on that whole you know, who

0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.680
<v Speaker 2>knows where your your opponent was. But odds are good.

0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:11.919
<v Speaker 2>They were in a tricky situation too, and and there

0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:14.000
<v Speaker 2>aren't any easy up and downs on that hole or

0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:14.960
<v Speaker 2>easy two putts.

0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a great green it is.

0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:19.560
<v Speaker 3>It's such a great place.

0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:23.760
<v Speaker 2>And that's another one that you just have to play

0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>your walk over and over and over and over to

0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:26.679
<v Speaker 2>try and pick it up.

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:28.159
<v Speaker 3>I'll never forget the first time walking it.

0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:32.159
<v Speaker 2>Just trying to take everything in in one trip around

0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:33.280
<v Speaker 2>is absolutely impossible.

0:24:33.520 --> 0:24:37.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, the first time I played it was US

0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.040
<v Speaker 1>Open week a few years ago, when it was that

0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 1>shinnakak and I played it, and you know, my buddy,

0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:46.560
<v Speaker 1>a couple of my buddies were like, what did you think.

0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:49.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, you know, honestly, like I don't even know

0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:53.560
<v Speaker 1>what to think. There's so much going on. And I

0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:57.800
<v Speaker 1>was supposed to leave town on Friday morning and I

0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:02.879
<v Speaker 1>got invited back out for Friday and I originally turned

0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:05.560
<v Speaker 1>it down. This is like a thing I do. I

0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:07.920
<v Speaker 1>was like, oh, I have to fly out. A couple

0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:11.960
<v Speaker 1>of my buddies got andy, if you don't change your flight,

0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:14.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to be speaking to you for a

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:18.320
<v Speaker 1>couple of miles. But I'm so happy I moved by flight.

0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:20.800
<v Speaker 1>It was actually one of the few times I've ever

0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:23.760
<v Speaker 1>bought a refundable flight. And you know, just the second

0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:25.960
<v Speaker 1>time around, you pick up so much, and you know,

0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.919
<v Speaker 1>I got lucky to play a third time, and I

0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:34.560
<v Speaker 1>played that time with a Hickory driver and Ballota ball

0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:37.280
<v Speaker 1>and all of a sudden, I was playing the member

0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:41.040
<v Speaker 1>tees and hitting from where you know, twelve to fifteen

0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.439
<v Speaker 1>handicaps hit from, and it was all of a sudden,

0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:47.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm wearing out long irons and I was like, holy cow,

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:49.840
<v Speaker 1>this is a completely different golf course.

0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:53.280
<v Speaker 3>Now, yeah, I'm sure you know what's brilliant.

0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:55.119
<v Speaker 2>One of the brilliant things about the National that a

0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:56.639
<v Speaker 2>lot of people don't talk about is the way he

0:25:56.800 --> 0:26:02.760
<v Speaker 2>used the ground contours in affecting your t shots. You know,

0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:05.679
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of you know, sixteen is the obvious example.

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:07.399
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of potential blindness if you drive in

0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:12.280
<v Speaker 2>the wrong spot. The ground contracts are just us so

0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:16.159
<v Speaker 2>beautifully there and so smartly that, yeah, I would I

0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:20.800
<v Speaker 2>would guess that with your twenty seventeen driver, you're hitting

0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:22.560
<v Speaker 2>it well past a lot of those things that really

0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:25.119
<v Speaker 2>mattered off the tee with your Hickory Club.

0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, that was the thing is I'd always heard about seven,

0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:32.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, like everybody, oh, seventeen's greatest hole, and for

0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:37.760
<v Speaker 1>the modern golf like pro or high level amateur, it's

0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.720
<v Speaker 1>it's not the greatest hole because the t shot, you

0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 1>just hit it as hard as you can up the left,

0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:46.320
<v Speaker 1>and all of a sudden, I have this Hickory. I

0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:48.800
<v Speaker 1>saw bunkers that I hadn't seen the first two times

0:26:48.880 --> 0:26:52.080
<v Speaker 1>I played, Like, all of a sudden, I'm looking. I'm like, holy, Like,

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:54.800
<v Speaker 1>this is like a really hard decision. I don't know

0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:57.800
<v Speaker 1>what to do, you know, And it brought back so

0:26:57.960 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 1>much of the thought off the tee.

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:04.120
<v Speaker 2>I felt like, that's cool that you did that, and yeah,

0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:07.919
<v Speaker 2>it's just such a fascinating place. Regardless of hop aar

0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:09.920
<v Speaker 2>you hit it, there's there was just a lot going

0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:10.480
<v Speaker 2>on there.

0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 1>And that well, and that's kind of the thing I

0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:17.040
<v Speaker 1>think when you look at the what's going on in

0:27:17.040 --> 0:27:20.560
<v Speaker 1>golf is with with all the distance gains and and everything,

0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the best way to defend against an assault of wedges

0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:29.320
<v Speaker 1>is with greens with some slope in them. And it

0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:32.520
<v Speaker 1>seems like we're our society is kind of pushing away

0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:32.880
<v Speaker 1>from that.

0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's ironic even well, especially at the elite level.

0:27:37.600 --> 0:27:39.120
<v Speaker 2>Do We had a chance to work with the tour

0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:43.240
<v Speaker 2>down in Houston last year and and they're very strict

0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:48.960
<v Speaker 2>about how much slope they'll accept in their pinnable parts

0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:49.320
<v Speaker 2>of the green.

0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:49.520
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:27:49.560 --> 0:27:53.240
<v Speaker 2>They they're reluctant to go above two percent slope, which

0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:58.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, to us isn't steep at all. But the

0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:01.399
<v Speaker 2>best players are rarely playing whole locations that are located

0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:03.119
<v Speaker 2>in the spot where if you miss the green to

0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:05.720
<v Speaker 2>one side or the other, the green's racing away from

0:28:05.720 --> 0:28:08.520
<v Speaker 2>you faster than you'd like it to be and to

0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:10.200
<v Speaker 2>make it difficult to stop a ball, you know. And

0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and when you put whole locations in flat positions where

0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:18.040
<v Speaker 2>you miss, matters a lot less. And it's ironic that

0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:20.440
<v Speaker 2>that those setting up courses for the best players in

0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:23.760
<v Speaker 2>the world are protecting them from that sort of thing.

0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:24.119
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:25.679
<v Speaker 2>It's it's something that a lot of golfers have to

0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:27.760
<v Speaker 2>deal with every day at their clubs or at the

0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:28.760
<v Speaker 2>courses they play often.

0:28:29.240 --> 0:28:30.800
<v Speaker 3>But the best.

0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:34.159
<v Speaker 2>Players in the world, apart from you know, Augusta and

0:28:35.200 --> 0:28:37.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, if the US Open is at Shinnacock or

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Oakmont or a handful of places.

0:28:42.920 --> 0:28:45.400
<v Speaker 3>Or the Open Championship. You know, the best.

0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:47.760
<v Speaker 2>Players in the world are rarely encountering whole locations and

0:28:47.840 --> 0:28:50.479
<v Speaker 2>steep spots where you can't miss the wrong side, you know,

0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:52.760
<v Speaker 2>and it's a shame. It'd be the game's a lot

0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:56.520
<v Speaker 2>more interesting when missing to the right of the green

0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:59.240
<v Speaker 2>and the green, you know, the green sloping away from

0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:02.920
<v Speaker 2>you over there means something and those guys don't run

0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:05.040
<v Speaker 2>into that that often, and they've got they've got the

0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:07.120
<v Speaker 2>game to deal with that, you know, and it would

0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:10.520
<v Speaker 2>be fun to watch him deal with those circumstances and

0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:13.240
<v Speaker 2>deal with a different set of challenges than they're they're

0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:14.960
<v Speaker 2>typically faced with.

0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:18.920
<v Speaker 1>And that was one of the most amazing things watching

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:23.440
<v Speaker 1>UH Royal Melbourne. It was like evident from the very

0:29:23.520 --> 0:29:26.040
<v Speaker 1>first t shot of the first day that this was

0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:27.760
<v Speaker 1>going to be a little bit different. When when the

0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:30.480
<v Speaker 1>guys drove it up near the first screen on the

0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:32.680
<v Speaker 1>composite course, Yeah.

0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:35.160
<v Speaker 2>What a great hole to start with. You know, it

0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:36.720
<v Speaker 2>might be my favorite hole in golf course, one of

0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:38.640
<v Speaker 2>my favorites in the world. It's such a brilliant little

0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 2>hole and where you landed matter, I mean, Richard forsythe

0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:46.880
<v Speaker 2>is an amazing greenkeeper, and you know, he does a

0:29:46.920 --> 0:29:48.760
<v Speaker 2>brilliant job with that golf course from day to day,

0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:50.280
<v Speaker 2>and the way it was set up for the tournament

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:54.680
<v Speaker 2>was just perfect. But it seemed to take the Americans

0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:58.280
<v Speaker 2>a couple of days to figure out where they needed

0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:02.520
<v Speaker 2>to miss and that that placing your ball actually matters

0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:04.960
<v Speaker 2>there because the ground is so firm, the rings are fast,

0:30:05.000 --> 0:30:08.160
<v Speaker 2>and there's a lot of slope in them. They took

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:09.400
<v Speaker 2>them a few days to get the hang of it,

0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:11.920
<v Speaker 2>I think, and that was reflected by the results.

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.600
<v Speaker 1>It totally. It was you could see it happening as

0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.080
<v Speaker 1>like day by day the America, like you know, the

0:30:18.120 --> 0:30:21.560
<v Speaker 1>first day Internationals really took it to them, and just

0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:23.920
<v Speaker 1>day by day it seemed like the Americans were just

0:30:23.920 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 1>figuring it out a little bit more each day.

0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:27.040
<v Speaker 3>It sure felt that way.

0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know if it was coincidence or if

0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:31.560
<v Speaker 2>that was reality, but there was one American that had

0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:35.440
<v Speaker 2>to figure it out from the get go, and you know,

0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:41.440
<v Speaker 2>he's the best player in the last four decades. And

0:30:41.640 --> 0:30:45.640
<v Speaker 2>that's the kind of thing. As a golf viewer, which

0:30:45.720 --> 0:30:47.200
<v Speaker 2>I frankly I don't watch the tour.

0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:48.120
<v Speaker 3>Much these days anymore.

0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:51.920
<v Speaker 2>But that's the kind of thing that we're losing out

0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:57.800
<v Speaker 2>on the spectators, you know, watching great players face challenges

0:30:57.840 --> 0:30:59.640
<v Speaker 2>like that where they have to think and they have

0:30:59.760 --> 0:31:02.920
<v Speaker 2>to position their ball, and they have to work their

0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:04.560
<v Speaker 2>way around the golf course and think the way around

0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:06.400
<v Speaker 2>the golf course as opposed to just smashing as far

0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:08.080
<v Speaker 2>as they can and hitting short irons.

0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:14.400
<v Speaker 3>In you know, the I miss.

0:31:14.800 --> 0:31:16.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, I've been watching a bunch of the old

0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Shells Wonderful World of Golf matches that have been put

0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 2>up on YouTube somewhat recently, and you can't watch one

0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:26.320
<v Speaker 2>of those matches without somebody hitting a long iron or

0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:28.680
<v Speaker 2>fairwy wood into part fours. You know, when's the last

0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:31.240
<v Speaker 2>time you saw that on TV in America? It just

0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:36.280
<v Speaker 2>doesn't happen anymore. And it was such a different skill

0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:40.200
<v Speaker 2>set that the players needed to have with them and

0:31:40.240 --> 0:31:43.320
<v Speaker 2>that we got to watch as spectators. And it's unfortunate that,

0:31:44.280 --> 0:31:48.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, Brooks, Koepka and Tiger Woods, Dustin Johnson and

0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:50.280
<v Speaker 2>it can hit amazing golf shots.

0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:53.440
<v Speaker 3>They're just not asked to do it that often, and

0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:55.320
<v Speaker 3>that's unfortunate.

0:31:55.960 --> 0:31:58.120
<v Speaker 1>And that's one of the things is one of the

0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:02.880
<v Speaker 1>most memorable shots that I can think of in the

0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:07.360
<v Speaker 1>last decade was at Bellery. Brooks Kopka hit you know,

0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:10.200
<v Speaker 1>it's like a two hundred was it sixteen or seventeen?

0:32:10.320 --> 0:32:13.240
<v Speaker 1>The part three, it's like two thirty forty. He had

0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:15.640
<v Speaker 1>a four irons, just flagged it and it was just

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:18.920
<v Speaker 1>it's amazing. And that was the difference in the championship,

0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:21.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, is this long iron play and you know,

0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:25.440
<v Speaker 1>nobody else hit as great of a shot as Brooks did,

0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:27.200
<v Speaker 1>and it was like, yeah, this is the guy that

0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:28.120
<v Speaker 1>should win.

0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:28.640
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:32.080
<v Speaker 1>It was that Donald Ross book. Golf has never failed me.

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:35.680
<v Speaker 1>I'll never forget reading the quotes. You know, long irons

0:32:35.840 --> 0:32:39.440
<v Speaker 1>is the true like separator of good and great players.

0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:43.440
<v Speaker 1>And I think that obviously over the years, You've worked

0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:46.200
<v Speaker 1>on a ton of great courses from you know, and

0:32:46.240 --> 0:32:49.680
<v Speaker 1>you've built a lot of new golf courses with Tom

0:32:49.720 --> 0:32:55.320
<v Speaker 1>and also on your own. How I'm curious how your

0:32:55.960 --> 0:33:02.360
<v Speaker 1>thoughts and beliefs in golf architecture have evolved since you know,

0:33:02.440 --> 0:33:06.440
<v Speaker 1>you're young, and.

0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:05.960
<v Speaker 3>I think they're always evolving.

0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:13.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's hard to think back and put myself

0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:17.240
<v Speaker 2>back in my own head twenty years ago. But you know,

0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:19.600
<v Speaker 2>I think when you're starting out, when you're exposed to architecture,

0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:21.840
<v Speaker 2>you're attracted to the books you read. You know, you

0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:24.720
<v Speaker 2>look at Thomas's book and they're all the cool diagrams

0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:29.440
<v Speaker 2>of alternate root holes, and you get a pretty quick

0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:35.800
<v Speaker 2>feel for two dimensional strategy. And those things look really

0:33:35.800 --> 0:33:38.400
<v Speaker 2>neat on paper, and you know, it's a little harder

0:33:38.400 --> 0:33:40.560
<v Speaker 2>to execute in the field. You know, the alternate roots

0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:43.680
<v Speaker 2>don't always work as well as they do in drawings,

0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.400
<v Speaker 2>and and what separates one root from another doesn't really

0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:52.680
<v Speaker 2>work as well in drawings. And I think the thing

0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:56.960
<v Speaker 2>I've really learned over the years, certainly with the help

0:33:56.960 --> 0:34:01.000
<v Speaker 2>of Tom and my co workers, is that just building

0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:05.880
<v Speaker 2>interesting contour creates good golf. You know, you don't necessarily

0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:11.040
<v Speaker 2>have to build strategy into a golf hole. You don't

0:34:11.080 --> 0:34:13.239
<v Speaker 2>have to define a way for players to play it.

0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Risk reward isn't always the most interesting sort of golf. Typically,

0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:25.040
<v Speaker 2>if you just build cool contour, especially around the greens,

0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:27.880
<v Speaker 2>then you've got good golf. And it can be that simple.

0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:33.200
<v Speaker 1>Hey, we didn't get through the five.

0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:37.279
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, I don't know how many I got to.

0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:40.239
<v Speaker 1>Well we'll go back. But keep talking about contour. It

0:34:40.440 --> 0:34:41.840
<v Speaker 1>just jump popped into my mind.

0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:47.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, the one place I'm gonna cheat on this one,

0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:50.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna use a time machine and keep talking about contour,

0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:51.880
<v Speaker 2>but also including another golf course. I'm gonna go back

0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:56.719
<v Speaker 2>to nineteen thirty four to Augusta National and was first built.

0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:01.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, there were twentyunkers or so somewhere around there,

0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:06.839
<v Speaker 2>twenty two bunkers, nothing but short grass, you know, two

0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:12.360
<v Speaker 2>heights of cut probably, and it was all about contour

0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:13.120
<v Speaker 2>and short grass.

0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:15.160
<v Speaker 3>You know. The greens were.

0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Really wild and severe and had a bunch of interesting

0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:22.520
<v Speaker 2>whole locations, and the way you played the whole varied

0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:24.120
<v Speaker 2>from day to day, and the way you played the

0:35:24.120 --> 0:35:27.560
<v Speaker 2>whole very dramatically if you missed where you wanted to

0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:31.359
<v Speaker 2>hit your t shot like the old course. I mean,

0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:33.200
<v Speaker 2>it was very much inspired by the old course. And

0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the holes even are almost templates of

0:35:35.480 --> 0:35:39.960
<v Speaker 2>holes from Saint Andrews and other places. But you know,

0:35:40.000 --> 0:35:44.440
<v Speaker 2>that was one of the best examples of how contour

0:35:45.360 --> 0:35:48.319
<v Speaker 2>is the most important and interesting part of the game.

0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:52.760
<v Speaker 2>And it didn't need many bunkers whatsoever to make it interesting.

0:35:52.760 --> 0:35:59.000
<v Speaker 2>It didn't need rough It was miles wide. But you know,

0:35:59.040 --> 0:36:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the contour around the greens matter, and the contrary and

0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:03.719
<v Speaker 2>the fairways matter. You know, if you if your ball

0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:06.680
<v Speaker 2>got off line, it would take a slope in the

0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 2>fairway and just keep running into worse trouble. And you

0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:11.160
<v Speaker 2>know what they've done now, and what a lot of

0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:13.760
<v Speaker 2>courses do by narrowing things up is you keep players

0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:15.640
<v Speaker 2>closer to the center of the hole and don't let

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:16.760
<v Speaker 2>balls run into trouble.

0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:19.440
<v Speaker 3>Marian's a great example of that.

0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:21.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a lot of side slope in Marion

0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:24.640
<v Speaker 2>and especially across the road, and when they narrow the

0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:26.839
<v Speaker 2>fairways up for the US Open, that just kept more

0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:28.560
<v Speaker 2>players closer to the center of the hole.

0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:29.880
<v Speaker 3>And if you mowed that entire.

0:36:29.600 --> 0:36:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Golf course short from wall to wall, I think it

0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:34.080
<v Speaker 2>would be a harder golf course because balls would roll

0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:36.080
<v Speaker 2>into places that you don't want to be. But the

0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:38.640
<v Speaker 2>rough keeps you closer to work, keeps you closer to

0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:39.879
<v Speaker 2>the ideal lining into those greens.

0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:41.600
<v Speaker 3>And Augusta was very much that way too before they

0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:42.200
<v Speaker 3>added the rough.

0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:48.320
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel like there's any examples as Augusta exists today,

0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:53.320
<v Speaker 1>really good examples of contour that you're talking about.

0:36:55.520 --> 0:36:57.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, I touched on that with the National. National

0:36:57.680 --> 0:37:03.400
<v Speaker 2>also has three hundred bunkers, whatever they have. There are places,

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:07.120
<v Speaker 2>and there aren't many places that have twenty or fewer

0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:09.680
<v Speaker 2>bunkers these days, and a Memorial Park is one of those.

0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:11.480
<v Speaker 2>But it doesn't nearly have the fair way contraur that

0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:12.400
<v Speaker 2>Augusta has.

0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:15.799
<v Speaker 3>I'm trying to think of something off the top of

0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:16.360
<v Speaker 3>my head.

0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:19.640
<v Speaker 2>That's that level of simplicity.

0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Old Town would jump to my mind.

0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:25.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, and I haven't seen that, even though

0:37:25.400 --> 0:37:28.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a couple hours from me, and that's been a quarantine.

0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Goal of mind is to try and get up there

0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:34.000
<v Speaker 2>and see it at some point. Yeah, I'm sure that's

0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:36.720
<v Speaker 2>a good example. That looks like a piece of property

0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:41.640
<v Speaker 2>similar to Augusta. Yeah, I mean Augusta's hilly. You know,

0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:43.719
<v Speaker 2>it's hilly, which obviously a lot of people have talked

0:37:43.719 --> 0:37:47.440
<v Speaker 2>about know about them. It's hard to think of another

0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:51.480
<v Speaker 2>great golf course of that much elevation change, and by

0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:54.560
<v Speaker 2>all accounts, old Town fits that bill.

0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:59.040
<v Speaker 1>What makes building a great golf course with that type

0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:01.320
<v Speaker 1>of elevation difficult?

0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:15.640
<v Speaker 2>That's a good question, you know, just attacking attacking the

0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:20.160
<v Speaker 2>side slopes in a variety of ways, I think, so

0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:21.920
<v Speaker 2>that you're not just going straight up and straight down

0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:25.439
<v Speaker 2>the hill. Downhill holes are fun, uphill holes not so much.

0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:31.200
<v Speaker 2>And avoiding holes like eighteen in Augusta, or you just

0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:33.120
<v Speaker 2>climbing straight up the hill to get back to the clubhouse.

0:38:34.360 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 2>There are many great holes in the world to do that,

0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:39.960
<v Speaker 2>So I guess clubhouse location is important part too. If

0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:41.359
<v Speaker 2>you put the clubhouse on top of the hill, you're

0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:46.120
<v Speaker 2>already stacking the deck against you a little bit. Olympic

0:38:46.120 --> 0:38:48.160
<v Speaker 2>Club is a pretty good example. You know, I can't

0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:50.400
<v Speaker 2>say I love that golf course, but I really admire

0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:53.520
<v Speaker 2>the way the golf course works around that hill. And

0:38:54.040 --> 0:38:57.719
<v Speaker 2>it's a steep slope mostly in one direction, especially on

0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:01.279
<v Speaker 2>the front nine. There's a lot of slope there. And

0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:04.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, he found a way to route along the

0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:10.040
<v Speaker 2>side slopes and in a way that really favors somebody

0:39:10.040 --> 0:39:12.319
<v Speaker 2>who can turn the ball into the slope, you know,

0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:15.799
<v Speaker 2>and then that's become a lost art certainly. You know,

0:39:15.840 --> 0:39:17.880
<v Speaker 2>the way good players hit the ball now they hit

0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:19.560
<v Speaker 2>it high enough for a role is less of an

0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:21.160
<v Speaker 2>issue than it used to be. But you know, when

0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:25.360
<v Speaker 2>I played it twenty years ago. You know, if you

0:39:25.520 --> 0:39:27.600
<v Speaker 2>hit a fade on one of the holes that was

0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:30.640
<v Speaker 2>sloping left or right and turning left or right, then

0:39:31.000 --> 0:39:32.560
<v Speaker 2>you are going to find yourself with a really long

0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:38.000
<v Speaker 2>second shot in and holes that tilt from side to

0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:42.000
<v Speaker 2>side then going straight up for straight down are really

0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:42.719
<v Speaker 2>interesting now.

0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:46.000
<v Speaker 3>But it's hard to know.

0:39:46.000 --> 0:39:48.520
<v Speaker 2>Every property is different. It's hard to generalize about those things.

0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:50.080
<v Speaker 2>But I think the more variety you can get in

0:39:51.120 --> 0:39:53.360
<v Speaker 2>holes to play along and across the slope is supposed

0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:53.839
<v Speaker 2>to up and down.

0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:57.480
<v Speaker 1>It kind of reminds what you're talking about. Reminds me

0:39:57.520 --> 0:39:59.440
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of what you guys did at Stoton

0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:02.360
<v Speaker 1>Bray with that knob on the back nine.

0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:06.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you might be right, because he plays incorporate that, Yeah.

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:14.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, trying to incorporate that.

0:40:14.280 --> 0:40:18.120
<v Speaker 2>That feels as much like what Mackenzie did at Cypress

0:40:18.160 --> 0:40:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Point or the Valley Club, where there's a few prominent

0:40:22.800 --> 0:40:25.160
<v Speaker 2>features in the property and he jammed as many greens

0:40:25.160 --> 0:40:28.120
<v Speaker 2>and t's on him and as he could, you know,

0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:29.880
<v Speaker 2>and Royal Melbourne's got a bit of that.

0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:31.759
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:40:31.800 --> 0:40:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Cypress is a great example that that kind of large

0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:38.000
<v Speaker 2>central dune in the middle of the property that three

0:40:38.080 --> 0:40:41.560
<v Speaker 2>plays up against you know, four ties are there, six

0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:44.520
<v Speaker 2>comes back to it, seven plays off it, eight plays

0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:47.920
<v Speaker 2>around it, nine plays onto it, you know, ten plays

0:40:47.920 --> 0:40:50.160
<v Speaker 2>off at eleven back to it, twelve plays off it.

0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:53.520
<v Speaker 2>He cramps so much golf into that one central feature

0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:57.600
<v Speaker 2>and he did the same thing he did too. Yeah,

0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:01.400
<v Speaker 2>it's brilliant. It's brilliant. I don't think we were channeling

0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:03.920
<v Speaker 2>mackenzie in any way, but but when you've got a

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:07.400
<v Speaker 2>property with a big feature like that, you try to

0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:08.759
<v Speaker 2>bring it in play as much as you can.

0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:12.040
<v Speaker 3>And that was one of our goals at Stone Bray.

0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:16.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, before we get to number five on your list,

0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:20.680
<v Speaker 1>talk about Stoton Bray and the experience. You know, you

0:41:21.120 --> 0:41:24.360
<v Speaker 1>have been a long type associate at Renaissance Golf and

0:41:24.360 --> 0:41:28.200
<v Speaker 1>and this was a project where you and and Brian

0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:33.480
<v Speaker 1>uh Slanik, Eric Iverson, Don Plaisk and and also Blake

0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:37.480
<v Speaker 1>helped out. Blake Conan helped out designed that golf course.

0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:41.040
<v Speaker 1>How was it like? What was it like? Was it

0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:45.640
<v Speaker 1>drastically a different experience than what it is like on

0:41:45.680 --> 0:41:49.239
<v Speaker 1>a on a Tom Doak designer or was it you know,

0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:51.959
<v Speaker 1>was it did it feel pretty similar? Except you guys

0:41:51.960 --> 0:41:53.040
<v Speaker 1>were making the final call.

0:41:55.920 --> 0:41:57.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's a big accept.

0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:00.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Stulton Bray is a really special place to me, and

0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:10.440
<v Speaker 2>particularly right now, you know, when we're working for Tom.

0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:15.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, Tom's always a parachute in a certain way

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:21.000
<v Speaker 2>that that when you've got a great editor coming behind you,

0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:23.120
<v Speaker 2>you can push things a little further, and you can

0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:26.840
<v Speaker 2>you can do dare to do something different and do

0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:30.680
<v Speaker 2>something wild, do something severe, knowing that if you pushed

0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:33.960
<v Speaker 2>it too far, you've got a brilliant editor coming to

0:42:34.080 --> 0:42:34.600
<v Speaker 2>make it right.

0:42:35.000 --> 0:42:39.239
<v Speaker 3>And and Tom gives us.

0:42:37.960 --> 0:42:41.799
<v Speaker 2>So much freedom to be creative, which makes it a

0:42:41.800 --> 0:42:45.520
<v Speaker 2>real pleasure to work for him. But it's also really

0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:49.040
<v Speaker 2>comforting knowing that if you do something stupid, he's going

0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:49.560
<v Speaker 2>to fix it.

0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:52.680
<v Speaker 3>And at Stulton.

0:42:52.320 --> 0:42:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Bray, you know I had Eric and Blake and see

0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Brian and Don as well. We all hit each other

0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:03.120
<v Speaker 2>to be that sounding boy, which was really important. But yeah,

0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:04.640
<v Speaker 2>you're you're accept.

0:43:06.360 --> 0:43:07.200
<v Speaker 3>It is a big deal.

0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:09.239
<v Speaker 2>And having to make the final call feels a lot

0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:14.560
<v Speaker 2>different than than just building freely and pushing pushing your

0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:18.920
<v Speaker 2>boundaries and trusting that Tom is going to make the

0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:22.120
<v Speaker 2>appropriate edits and and you know, and and which isn't

0:43:22.160 --> 0:43:23.440
<v Speaker 2>to say that Tom is merely an editor.

0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:25.879
<v Speaker 3>That's not the case at all.

0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:29.200
<v Speaker 2>But the way Tom allows us to work gives us

0:43:29.239 --> 0:43:33.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of freedom to to experiment and mess around

0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:37.640
<v Speaker 2>and and eventually get it a really good final product.

0:43:38.680 --> 0:43:40.759
<v Speaker 2>So Stonebury was cool in that regard, and you know

0:43:40.840 --> 0:43:44.759
<v Speaker 2>it really had to learn to trust myself and my instincts,

0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:49.080
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I caught myself thinking a lot, boy,

0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:50.680
<v Speaker 2>what would Tom have to say about this? And that

0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:53.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, I've got enough experience with him now that

0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:57.319
<v Speaker 2>I can have some idea of how he might feel

0:43:57.320 --> 0:44:00.000
<v Speaker 2>about some of the things I build. But I certainly

0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:03.640
<v Speaker 2>lean down Eric quite a bit throughout that process and Blake,

0:44:04.000 --> 0:44:06.040
<v Speaker 2>both of which runs on site a lot. You know,

0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:08.799
<v Speaker 2>Brian is pretty well tied up at the Loop up

0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:11.680
<v Speaker 2>north and Don was pretty busy as well, but they've

0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:14.400
<v Speaker 2>both spent time there. But yeah, I definitely leaned on

0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:16.880
<v Speaker 2>on those guys a lot the things I was building

0:44:16.920 --> 0:44:19.920
<v Speaker 2>and had to sign off on, which we do with

0:44:19.920 --> 0:44:22.120
<v Speaker 2>Tom too. I mean, we're always on site a lot

0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:24.720
<v Speaker 2>together and we're constantly talking about what each other's building

0:44:24.719 --> 0:44:27.359
<v Speaker 2>and looking at everything that's being built. So it's it's

0:44:27.400 --> 0:44:29.239
<v Speaker 2>always been part of the process but when Tom's not

0:44:29.320 --> 0:44:32.280
<v Speaker 2>there as the final editor, it definitely has a different

0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:35.360
<v Speaker 2>way to it.

0:44:35.040 --> 0:44:39.520
<v Speaker 1>Talk about the collaborative aspect of that project is something

0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:43.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of fascinated with thinking about, is how, you know,

0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:47.520
<v Speaker 1>we don't see that. It almost was like a throwback

0:44:47.600 --> 0:44:50.960
<v Speaker 1>project where you guys, you know, you don't see as much.

0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.760
<v Speaker 1>There's so much solo design ever since it became a profession.

0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:57.320
<v Speaker 1>It's solo design, and this is an example of really

0:44:57.440 --> 0:44:58.640
<v Speaker 1>a group of designers.

0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that part for us isn't any different than

0:45:03.680 --> 0:45:06.239
<v Speaker 2>what we typically do. You know, there there are four

0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:11.000
<v Speaker 2>names on the listed after designer for that golf course.

0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:15.319
<v Speaker 2>But but everything we do is a collaboration to a

0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:20.640
<v Speaker 2>certain degree, you know, certainly on Tom's projects, he is

0:45:20.680 --> 0:45:22.279
<v Speaker 2>at the top of the at the top of the

0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:24.439
<v Speaker 2>heap and making all the important decisions, and he's got

0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:28.080
<v Speaker 2>the you know, he handles the routing, you know, ninety

0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:30.680
<v Speaker 2>eight percent of the routing which we added to a

0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:32.000
<v Speaker 2>certain degree on the ground with him.

0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:35.520
<v Speaker 3>But he's responsible for a lot of that.

0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:37.440
<v Speaker 2>And in the case of Stoton Bray, it was a

0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:42.080
<v Speaker 2>collaboration between Brian, Eric Don and I and the routing

0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:44.399
<v Speaker 2>process we all had the maps, and we all messed

0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:47.080
<v Speaker 2>around with them and then shared them with one another

0:45:47.280 --> 0:45:49.920
<v Speaker 2>and and picked the bits and pieces of everyone that

0:45:49.960 --> 0:45:52.840
<v Speaker 2>worked best, and we kind of cobbled that together and

0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:56.640
<v Speaker 2>what we came up with at the end. So that

0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:58.640
<v Speaker 2>was the biggest difference, you know, that it was a

0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:06.560
<v Speaker 2>collaborative routing process, which is not really the same as

0:46:06.560 --> 0:46:08.600
<v Speaker 2>our projects at the top where he's responsible for most

0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:08.879
<v Speaker 2>of that.

0:46:09.120 --> 0:46:12.600
<v Speaker 1>How drastically different were where everybody's routing.

0:46:13.440 --> 0:46:16.080
<v Speaker 2>All over the map, all of the map, And I'm

0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.400
<v Speaker 2>sure we all came up with a handful of routings

0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:23.680
<v Speaker 2>we liked, but frankly, you know, the.

0:46:23.760 --> 0:46:24.279
<v Speaker 1>Key to.

0:46:27.120 --> 0:46:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Coming up with the routing we did was squeezing as

0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:32.720
<v Speaker 2>many holes into that portion of property you talked about

0:46:32.719 --> 0:46:36.080
<v Speaker 2>the far end where the big hill is. Squeezing as

0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:38.640
<v Speaker 2>many holes as we could down there, number one, finding

0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:41.960
<v Speaker 2>interesting holes that take advantage of that cootal topography down there,

0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:43.719
<v Speaker 2>and then creating as much space as we could in

0:46:43.800 --> 0:46:48.799
<v Speaker 2>the flattered round to give those holes a little bit

0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:51.240
<v Speaker 2>of roomy that. You know, if we had to squeeze

0:46:51.280 --> 0:46:53.040
<v Speaker 2>one or two more holes up in the flats, things

0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:54.120
<v Speaker 2>would have felt pretty cramped.

0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:57.160
<v Speaker 3>So you know, I think it was Brian's loonic that.

0:46:58.800 --> 0:47:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Came up with the idea of running the twelfth hole

0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:03.600
<v Speaker 2>across the far end of the property, which was a

0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:07.360
<v Speaker 2>really big ridge before we started, and that took a

0:47:07.360 --> 0:47:11.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of earthwork to create that hole, but that allowed

0:47:11.920 --> 0:47:14.400
<v Speaker 2>us to get one, if not two, more holes in

0:47:14.400 --> 0:47:16.360
<v Speaker 2>that end of the property than most of the routings had,

0:47:17.560 --> 0:47:20.319
<v Speaker 2>thus freeing up more space to let the other holes

0:47:20.320 --> 0:47:21.879
<v Speaker 2>in the flatter part of the property breathe a little

0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:24.960
<v Speaker 2>bit more than otherwise. So that was the trick to

0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:26.400
<v Speaker 2>making it work. It was getting as many holes as

0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:27.680
<v Speaker 2>we could down with that in the property.

0:47:29.440 --> 0:47:33.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a cool, cool golf core. It's really neat

0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:37.200
<v Speaker 1>greens and I love that back section of the property.

0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:40.120
<v Speaker 1>But the first few holes are great too. You get those.

0:47:40.200 --> 0:47:43.319
<v Speaker 1>You got a great mixture of greens out there. What

0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:46.080
<v Speaker 1>we were talking about with green contour applies definitely there

0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:50.640
<v Speaker 1>where there's a wide variety of greens and you know,

0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:54.239
<v Speaker 1>different slopes and different questions each of them.

0:47:54.280 --> 0:47:57.000
<v Speaker 3>Ask. I appreciate that.

0:47:57.080 --> 0:48:00.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we had fun building them, and I think we

0:48:00.600 --> 0:48:03.759
<v Speaker 2>all contributed ideas to that part of the process, and

0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:04.680
<v Speaker 2>John Scott did too.

0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:06.960
<v Speaker 3>You know, John was out there a lot.

0:48:06.719 --> 0:48:14.080
<v Speaker 2>With us, and great guy, really smart. He was very

0:48:14.080 --> 0:48:17.000
<v Speaker 2>involved in the process and even encouraged us to dial

0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:19.720
<v Speaker 2>things up a little bit to make the greens more interesting,

0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:24.799
<v Speaker 2>more exciting. So it was a real pleasure working with

0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:27.400
<v Speaker 2>John and his family and being a part of what

0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:29.280
<v Speaker 2>they've created up there. It's a really special place.

0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:32.359
<v Speaker 1>So let's get to number five.

0:48:34.600 --> 0:48:40.239
<v Speaker 2>Number five, Okay, Yeah, I mentioned Garden City already. That

0:48:40.280 --> 0:48:44.799
<v Speaker 2>would be a place I would take people almost for

0:48:44.880 --> 0:48:47.719
<v Speaker 2>the opposite reasons of you know, it's kind of the

0:48:47.760 --> 0:48:49.880
<v Speaker 2>opposite of the National in some ways, in the opposite

0:48:49.920 --> 0:48:53.040
<v Speaker 2>of Augusta, and that there's very little ground contour there.

0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:55.360
<v Speaker 3>The greens are pretty.

0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Subtle, the hazards are totally different, but really unique in

0:48:59.080 --> 0:49:01.719
<v Speaker 2>American golf. And you know, Garden City reminds me a

0:49:01.719 --> 0:49:04.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of Walton Heath, which is one of my favorite

0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:05.440
<v Speaker 2>places in the UK.

0:49:05.400 --> 0:49:07.840
<v Speaker 3>And Woodhull SPA where we've.

0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Been really lucky to work. There's a simplicity about all

0:49:12.239 --> 0:49:16.040
<v Speaker 2>of those places. You know, the property of Woodhall Spot

0:49:17.880 --> 0:49:20.319
<v Speaker 2>is really quiet, very similar to Garden City, but there's

0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:21.600
<v Speaker 2>great texture there.

0:49:22.520 --> 0:49:23.560
<v Speaker 3>Walton Heath is similar.

0:49:23.600 --> 0:49:25.759
<v Speaker 2>You know that most of that property runs to the

0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.439
<v Speaker 2>road that separates the clubhouse from the golf course, and

0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:33.000
<v Speaker 2>the greens there are largely just laying on the ground.

0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:35.640
<v Speaker 2>There's not a lot of contour in them. But so

0:49:35.680 --> 0:49:40.359
<v Speaker 2>many of those greens tilt subtly towards that road, and

0:49:40.400 --> 0:49:44.160
<v Speaker 2>that's rarely back to front when you're playing. The golf

0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:45.680
<v Speaker 2>holes and garden seats are the same way. There are

0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:47.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot of golf holes, you know, the property of

0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Garden City is pretty quiet, and a lot of the greens,

0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:52.520
<v Speaker 2>like the tenth and the fifteenth are just laying on

0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:55.080
<v Speaker 2>the ground, but the ground is falling it three four

0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:58.960
<v Speaker 2>or five percent to the side and to the back.

0:49:59.000 --> 0:50:02.480
<v Speaker 3>In some cases, that's a shot you don't see very often.

0:50:04.000 --> 0:50:10.319
<v Speaker 2>There's just a beautiful simplicity to approaching the hole on

0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:12.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, the tenth is one of my favorite holes.

0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:14.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, the green falls away left to right, front

0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:18.160
<v Speaker 2>to back, and you really have to think about where

0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:20.680
<v Speaker 2>you want to miss again, and and that's another hole

0:50:20.680 --> 0:50:26.120
<v Speaker 2>we're missing along. It's better than missing short. But that's

0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:27.760
<v Speaker 2>a really hard thing to get yourself to do, especially

0:50:27.800 --> 0:50:29.520
<v Speaker 2>when you can't quite see what's going on up there,

0:50:29.600 --> 0:50:31.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, and you're not quite sure what's behind the green,

0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:35.759
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, it's it's just a lot of fun to

0:50:35.760 --> 0:50:36.720
<v Speaker 2>play golf that way.

0:50:37.000 --> 0:50:40.919
<v Speaker 1>And there's that deception aspect of it, and until you

0:50:40.920 --> 0:50:42.880
<v Speaker 1>know the hole, you don't know that the ball is

0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:47.239
<v Speaker 1>going to take a bigger bounce forward than you're used

0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:48.759
<v Speaker 1>to because it doesn't look like it.

0:50:49.400 --> 0:50:52.080
<v Speaker 3>Yep. Yeah, And you've got you know, and a whole

0:50:52.120 --> 0:50:52.560
<v Speaker 3>like that too.

0:50:52.560 --> 0:50:56.160
<v Speaker 2>And there's Superintendent Mike McLevy does a fantastic job and

0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.279
<v Speaker 2>he's he has really firmed that place up and it's

0:50:59.320 --> 0:51:04.160
<v Speaker 2>playing better and better every year that he's there. You know,

0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:07.240
<v Speaker 2>as much as any golf course in America, the thirty

0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:09.640
<v Speaker 2>yards in front of some of those greens matters a

0:51:09.640 --> 0:51:11.680
<v Speaker 2>lot because that's where you need to land your ball

0:51:11.719 --> 0:51:14.759
<v Speaker 2>in some days. And he's done a beautiful job of

0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:16.959
<v Speaker 2>tightening that up and firming it up. And you really

0:51:17.000 --> 0:51:18.840
<v Speaker 2>do have to think about the contour in front of

0:51:18.880 --> 0:51:20.960
<v Speaker 2>the greens, not just the putting surfaces themselves, but you've

0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:22.800
<v Speaker 2>got to think about what's going on short of the greens,

0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:24.600
<v Speaker 2>which is something you have.

0:51:24.600 --> 0:51:25.879
<v Speaker 3>To do in the UK all the time.

0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:29.319
<v Speaker 2>When it's windy and the ground is firm, and if

0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:31.839
<v Speaker 2>the winds at your back. You know, you can't fly

0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:34.280
<v Speaker 2>ball out of the green and expect it to stop.

0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:36.759
<v Speaker 2>So you've got to consider the contour in front of

0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:38.680
<v Speaker 2>the green and oftentimes hit a shot that takes advantage

0:51:38.719 --> 0:51:41.840
<v Speaker 2>of that contour and negotiates it somehow. And golf's a

0:51:41.880 --> 0:51:44.360
<v Speaker 2>lot more fun when when the balls on the ground

0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:48.279
<v Speaker 2>and rolling and you've got to you've got to think

0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:51.160
<v Speaker 2>through the contours over a much broader area than just

0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:52.200
<v Speaker 2>what's on the green itself.

0:51:54.320 --> 0:51:57.520
<v Speaker 1>Something that makes me that I love most about Garden

0:51:57.560 --> 0:52:01.360
<v Speaker 1>City is that in a way, you know, the Augustus

0:52:01.480 --> 0:52:06.160
<v Speaker 1>topography is just astounding and and same with National where

0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:09.200
<v Speaker 1>you have this this amazing site. Is the thing that

0:52:09.239 --> 0:52:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Garden City kind of screams to me is that, you know,

0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:16.719
<v Speaker 1>great architecture is attainable almost anywhere.

0:52:17.640 --> 0:52:20.320
<v Speaker 3>It is, Yeah, it is. There are a handful of

0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:21.160
<v Speaker 3>places like that.

0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Chicago melfb is another one for me that you know,

0:52:24.600 --> 0:52:25.879
<v Speaker 2>people call that a flat site.

0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:28.120
<v Speaker 3>It's not. It's not a bad site at all, but

0:52:29.080 --> 0:52:29.600
<v Speaker 3>it you know.

0:52:29.560 --> 0:52:33.240
<v Speaker 2>There is simplicity about it that most of the holes there,

0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:36.680
<v Speaker 2>well maybe all the holes there, and none of them

0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:40.600
<v Speaker 2>are great because of the topography, you know, and you

0:52:40.600 --> 0:52:42.480
<v Speaker 2>could say it's the same about Garden City. It's just

0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the architectures are really shines at places like that, and

0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:50.239
<v Speaker 2>the architecture is really simple at Garden City, and it's

0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:54.759
<v Speaker 2>a little more manufactured at Chicago. But nonetheless, you know,

0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:58.600
<v Speaker 2>the things that are built in Chicago are built almost

0:52:58.719 --> 0:53:01.839
<v Speaker 2>entirely for golf reasons as opposed to aesthetics or anything else.

0:53:03.080 --> 0:53:06.279
<v Speaker 2>They just built cool features for golf and didn't mess

0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:06.960
<v Speaker 2>with the rest of it.

0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is another perfect example, and I think Stote

0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:15.400
<v Speaker 1>and Bray in a similar veins example of that, where

0:53:15.680 --> 0:53:18.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, you can have really good architecture on you know,

0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.080
<v Speaker 1>not the best piece of land doesn't have to be

0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:22.239
<v Speaker 1>sandy and dramatic.

0:53:23.760 --> 0:53:26.640
<v Speaker 2>No, you're right, You're right, and we you know, I

0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:28.879
<v Speaker 2>don't know that we would have moved a lot more

0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:31.120
<v Speaker 2>earth if we'd had a bigger budget, but the budget

0:53:31.200 --> 0:53:34.280
<v Speaker 2>was limited and we really had to focus on spending

0:53:34.280 --> 0:53:37.280
<v Speaker 2>money wisely, and that included bunkers.

0:53:37.320 --> 0:53:38.719
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there aren't many bunkers.

0:53:38.360 --> 0:53:43.919
<v Speaker 2>Of Sto'te Bray either, and frankly I don't I can't

0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:45.880
<v Speaker 2>think of anywhere where i'd add more, and probably a

0:53:45.880 --> 0:53:47.560
<v Speaker 2>few I would take out at this point if anything,

0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:54.680
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, it had to be Yeah, it had to

0:53:54.680 --> 0:53:57.480
<v Speaker 2>be designed with budget in mind, both from construction and maintenance.

0:53:58.440 --> 0:54:00.759
<v Speaker 2>And I think that that gave us a really good product.

0:54:01.680 --> 0:54:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Uh and a project that has really kept my attention

0:54:06.280 --> 0:54:10.040
<v Speaker 1>through the Chicago Winner and now through this virus that

0:54:10.040 --> 0:54:14.600
<v Speaker 1>i've I constantly find myself seeking out photos of is uh.

0:54:14.719 --> 0:54:17.480
<v Speaker 1>I hope I pronouncing it correct. I've seen the name

0:54:17.600 --> 0:54:21.240
<v Speaker 1>so many times, larnek, Nope.

0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:22.440
<v Speaker 3>You're close.

0:54:22.520 --> 0:54:27.120
<v Speaker 2>I've heard a lot of different different attempts. Lanark Atlantic

0:54:27.360 --> 0:54:30.279
<v Speaker 2>It's it's a Welsh word. Most people don't get it

0:54:30.320 --> 0:54:31.680
<v Speaker 2>right the first time around, but it's Lanark.

0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:34.840
<v Speaker 1>It's it's funny. Something the other Greeks can be emailed

0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:38.200
<v Speaker 1>me years ago about it, and it's just amazing to

0:54:38.239 --> 0:54:41.759
<v Speaker 1>see how it's coming. And something I wanted to ask

0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:44.600
<v Speaker 1>you about is you know, the first thing that you

0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:48.200
<v Speaker 1>notice is the striking style that you even Blake went

0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:51.440
<v Speaker 1>with there, and I wanted to ask if that was,

0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:55.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, kind of an intentional move to you. It's

0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:59.920
<v Speaker 1>very different from the in vogue, you know, rugged exposed

0:55:00.040 --> 0:55:02.760
<v Speaker 1>look that we see all over the place in most

0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:04.640
<v Speaker 1>new projects.

0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:11.719
<v Speaker 2>It's a different look, certainly and it was intentional. You know,

0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:14.680
<v Speaker 2>it evolved a little bit, and you know every project

0:55:14.760 --> 0:55:16.080
<v Speaker 2>we do kind of goes that way.

0:55:16.120 --> 0:55:17.759
<v Speaker 3>You take a few holes to sort out what the

0:55:17.760 --> 0:55:18.520
<v Speaker 3>style is going to be.

0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:24.239
<v Speaker 2>And but yeah, it was it was my intention to

0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:28.200
<v Speaker 2>build some above ground features as opposed to building a

0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:32.000
<v Speaker 2>bunch of bunkers. You know, it's fifteen Lantark is fifteen

0:55:32.040 --> 0:55:36.520
<v Speaker 2>minutes from Maryon and surrounded by a ton of great golf.

0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:39.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, Philadelphia is just loaded with great golf courses

0:55:39.200 --> 0:55:41.279
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of the best stuff was done by

0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Flynn and you know, you think about Marry and you

0:55:45.480 --> 0:55:47.920
<v Speaker 2>think about the Flynn courses, and you think about the

0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:54.440
<v Speaker 2>flash sand bunkers and the similar aesthetic and the club

0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:58.560
<v Speaker 2>was has every step of the way put an extraordinary

0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:02.880
<v Speaker 2>amount of trust in me and encouraged me to do

0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:05.479
<v Speaker 2>what I wanted to do and thought was best. They've

0:56:05.520 --> 0:56:11.440
<v Speaker 2>been fantastic and we're one hundred percent behind trying something

0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:16.880
<v Speaker 2>different that wouldn't feel like anything else in Philadelphia, and

0:56:16.920 --> 0:56:18.480
<v Speaker 2>that was one of my goals, just to create, you know,

0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:20.600
<v Speaker 2>to give it a different identity in a place that's

0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:25.960
<v Speaker 2>choc a block with great golf. And we ran with that,

0:56:26.040 --> 0:56:29.239
<v Speaker 2>and they've given us a lot of latitude to do

0:56:29.320 --> 0:56:31.880
<v Speaker 2>some different stuff there, and I'm sure they scratched their

0:56:31.880 --> 0:56:33.160
<v Speaker 2>heads a little bit when they would come out and

0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:37.080
<v Speaker 2>see some of the things we built. We've experimented quite

0:56:37.080 --> 0:56:39.480
<v Speaker 2>a bit there and built a lot of crap that

0:56:39.520 --> 0:56:42.520
<v Speaker 2>the members saw overnight and freaked out and we wiped

0:56:42.520 --> 0:56:45.160
<v Speaker 2>out the next day. But we're just trying a bunch

0:56:45.160 --> 0:56:48.239
<v Speaker 2>of different things and stumbling on some things that we

0:56:48.280 --> 0:56:51.759
<v Speaker 2>think are really cool, and hopefully a bunch of stuff

0:56:51.760 --> 0:56:53.160
<v Speaker 2>that people haven't seen before in that area.

0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:56.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I love that that idea because I feel

0:56:56.880 --> 0:57:00.200
<v Speaker 1>like most a lot of times what happens is in

0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:04.120
<v Speaker 1>that situation as well, this is what the clubs around

0:57:04.160 --> 0:57:07.600
<v Speaker 1>here do, so we should probably do that too, And

0:57:07.640 --> 0:57:11.120
<v Speaker 1>it becomes almost a group think versus the idea of

0:57:11.280 --> 0:57:16.600
<v Speaker 1>creating your own unique identity as a golf course.

0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I think you're right. I think you're right. Atlantic is

0:57:21.960 --> 0:57:26.160
<v Speaker 2>a really different project for me. You know, all of

0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:31.240
<v Speaker 2>my other consulting clients are you know, have clubs of

0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:36.080
<v Speaker 2>courses that were built by Travis or Ross or Banks,

0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:39.200
<v Speaker 2>great architects, and they're really really good golf courses, and

0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:42.240
<v Speaker 2>there are important examples of that architect's work, and I

0:57:42.280 --> 0:57:46.800
<v Speaker 2>feel like restoring them is the best and only option.

0:57:47.120 --> 0:57:50.200
<v Speaker 3>And I really really strict about that. You know. I

0:57:50.680 --> 0:57:53.600
<v Speaker 3>don't like taking liberties if I say I'm restoring something.

0:57:53.320 --> 0:57:58.080
<v Speaker 2>And I don't tend to take work unless the club

0:57:58.160 --> 0:57:59.760
<v Speaker 2>is behind a pure restoration.

0:58:00.120 --> 0:58:01.360
<v Speaker 3>So most of the work I've.

0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Done in places like Hollywood or Round Hill or the

0:58:03.600 --> 0:58:07.920
<v Speaker 2>places i'm working now, our strict restoration. I want to

0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:12.360
<v Speaker 2>put back with what the old guys did. But Landark

0:58:12.440 --> 0:58:13.040
<v Speaker 2>is a different thing.

0:58:13.080 --> 0:58:13.240
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:58:13.720 --> 0:58:17.800
<v Speaker 2>I spent a lot of time researching the design history

0:58:17.840 --> 0:58:20.640
<v Speaker 2>of the place, and that golf course evolved a lot

0:58:20.760 --> 0:58:24.560
<v Speaker 2>over the years from the very beginning at various times.

0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:29.280
<v Speaker 2>It's been twenty seven holes, you know it started. You know,

0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:32.240
<v Speaker 2>it's divided by a road, and you know, the chunks

0:58:32.280 --> 0:58:35.000
<v Speaker 2>of property the club owned were developed at different times,

0:58:35.040 --> 0:58:37.200
<v Speaker 2>and what they owned now is different what they owned

0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:39.800
<v Speaker 2>when they began. So it's evolved a lot over the years,

0:58:39.840 --> 0:58:43.640
<v Speaker 2>and the more I studied it, I didn't really feel

0:58:43.680 --> 0:58:46.800
<v Speaker 2>like there was much Number one that we could put back,

0:58:46.840 --> 0:58:48.960
<v Speaker 2>you know what, There wasn't anything left from the original

0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Alex Finlay course that we could restore because it's been

0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:56.000
<v Speaker 2>changed so much and the property itself had changed, But

0:58:56.040 --> 0:58:57.720
<v Speaker 2>there also wasn't a whole lot when I looked at

0:58:57.720 --> 0:58:59.440
<v Speaker 2>the old area, old and the old photos, you know,

0:58:59.680 --> 0:59:01.439
<v Speaker 2>the all right number of old fotes in the place.

0:59:01.480 --> 0:59:04.400
<v Speaker 2>They hosted the PGA Championship, the first PGA Championship that

0:59:04.440 --> 0:59:06.280
<v Speaker 2>was played at stroke Play.

0:59:06.480 --> 0:59:08.080
<v Speaker 3>It was Atlantic in the fifties.

0:59:10.280 --> 0:59:11.800
<v Speaker 2>So we've got a bunch of bold photos, but I

0:59:11.880 --> 0:59:14.000
<v Speaker 2>just you know, there was nothing there that screen. Boy,

0:59:14.080 --> 0:59:16.320
<v Speaker 2>we really need to put that back. That was really cool,

0:59:18.680 --> 0:59:20.360
<v Speaker 2>and the club was okay with that, you know. So

0:59:20.440 --> 0:59:22.600
<v Speaker 2>this was really the first opportunity I've had to do

0:59:22.680 --> 0:59:27.480
<v Speaker 2>something drastically different, really kind of change the character of

0:59:27.480 --> 0:59:29.760
<v Speaker 2>a golf course without going back to something that was there.

0:59:29.720 --> 0:59:33.480
<v Speaker 3>One hundred years ago. And that's been really fun. You know.

0:59:33.880 --> 0:59:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Restoring is great for a wide variety of reasons, but

0:59:39.120 --> 0:59:41.440
<v Speaker 2>having the freedom to do something totally different Atlantic has

0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:42.560
<v Speaker 2>been a lot of fun for us.

0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:44.040
<v Speaker 3>And Blake's been great too.

0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean that he's such a creative guy, and we've

0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:49.280
<v Speaker 2>just had a lot of fun doing wacky stuff out

0:59:49.280 --> 0:59:52.800
<v Speaker 2>there and trying to trying to make one another say wow,

0:59:53.000 --> 0:59:57.960
<v Speaker 2>I think, yeah, it's It's been a really fun process.

0:59:58.000 --> 1:00:00.520
<v Speaker 2>And Brendan Burn is the superintendent as well as a

1:00:00.520 --> 1:00:03.640
<v Speaker 2>general manager, and he's been a fantastic client, as has

1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:06.040
<v Speaker 2>the club, so we've had a great time there.

1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I highly recommend people going checking out his photos

1:00:10.400 --> 1:00:13.040
<v Speaker 1>on Twitter. He posts them all the time and it's

1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:19.840
<v Speaker 1>like I'm glued to him. Speaking of the above ground features,

1:00:20.640 --> 1:00:26.240
<v Speaker 1>how does that gets you know, most golfers are accustomed

1:00:26.240 --> 1:00:29.120
<v Speaker 1>to the below ground the idea of bunkers, you know,

1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:35.360
<v Speaker 1>where features go down, what type different things does the

1:00:35.440 --> 1:00:41.160
<v Speaker 1>above ground feature impact in terms of architecture, the play

1:00:41.840 --> 1:00:45.680
<v Speaker 1>and just you know, on a broader scale, your your

1:00:45.720 --> 1:00:54.040
<v Speaker 1>scale that when you're working with the above ground features.

1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:55.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I think the you know, going back

1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:57.880
<v Speaker 2>to what we talked about earlier with Brooks and Memorial Park,

1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:06.000
<v Speaker 2>bunkers different players differently, obviously, and the best players at

1:01:06.080 --> 1:01:09.120
<v Speaker 2>Land or the most clubs don't really struggle with a

1:01:09.200 --> 1:01:14.160
<v Speaker 2>typical green side bunker shot, whereas a lot of the

1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:18.240
<v Speaker 2>handicapped players, beginners, older players, that's a really hard shot

1:01:18.240 --> 1:01:22.960
<v Speaker 2>for them. And I think building a burm or a

1:01:23.000 --> 1:01:27.080
<v Speaker 2>mound or something above ground tends to have a less

1:01:27.360 --> 1:01:32.840
<v Speaker 2>severe penalty for handicapped players. And we don't have a

1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:36.280
<v Speaker 2>ton of green side bunkers Atlantic right now, and the ones.

1:01:36.080 --> 1:01:37.680
<v Speaker 3>We built are pretty severe. There are a few that

1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:39.320
<v Speaker 3>you should definitely avoid at all costs.

1:01:40.120 --> 1:01:41.680
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of room to play around those, but

1:01:41.720 --> 1:01:43.160
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to miss right of the first green,

1:01:43.200 --> 1:01:44.920
<v Speaker 2>for example, or long.

1:01:44.720 --> 1:01:46.880
<v Speaker 3>On the eighth.

1:01:47.080 --> 1:01:48.800
<v Speaker 2>But I think those are going to be really difficult

1:01:48.800 --> 1:01:52.920
<v Speaker 2>shots for everybody, not just handicapped players. But we put

1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:55.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot more short short grass around some of the greens,

1:01:55.480 --> 1:01:57.480
<v Speaker 2>but just rough around a lot of the greens with

1:01:58.040 --> 1:02:03.560
<v Speaker 2>some funky, interesting contours can get a weird lie. And

1:02:03.600 --> 1:02:05.520
<v Speaker 2>in the fairways too. We built some mounding and some

1:02:05.560 --> 1:02:09.920
<v Speaker 2>other things instead of bunkers that will offer a different

1:02:10.000 --> 1:02:14.160
<v Speaker 2>type of recovery and a different degree of penalty.

1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:18.400
<v Speaker 3>Without beating up the handicap player too much. I hope.

1:02:19.800 --> 1:02:24.560
<v Speaker 1>I'd agree with I think they could. Uneven lies for

1:02:24.640 --> 1:02:27.640
<v Speaker 1>a good player from rough are going to be a

1:02:28.080 --> 1:02:32.000
<v Speaker 1>lot more difficult than a very predictable bunker shot yep.

1:02:32.120 --> 1:02:35.760
<v Speaker 1>And they are easier for the regular golfer from Yeah,

1:02:36.240 --> 1:02:39.600
<v Speaker 1>my experience cattying it was always easier when somebody was

1:02:39.600 --> 1:02:41.200
<v Speaker 1>in the rough chipping, you know.

1:02:41.360 --> 1:02:43.720
<v Speaker 2>I agree, And you know, when we started at Landward,

1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:47.960
<v Speaker 2>I think I think there were like fifteen of the

1:02:47.960 --> 1:02:50.400
<v Speaker 2>greens fourteen fifteen, sixteen, and the greens were kind of

1:02:50.400 --> 1:02:53.000
<v Speaker 2>bunker front right front left almost every hole.

1:02:53.080 --> 1:02:56.600
<v Speaker 3>So you know, again the.

1:02:56.560 --> 1:02:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Average player never misses past the hole they're going to

1:02:59.160 --> 1:03:02.920
<v Speaker 2>miss right or left, and nine times out of ten

1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:05.320
<v Speaker 2>you had been recovering from a bunker, and we tried

1:03:05.320 --> 1:03:07.920
<v Speaker 2>to undo that completely. You know, there are holes where

1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:12.080
<v Speaker 2>you there's a bunker left or a bunker right or neither.

1:03:13.880 --> 1:03:15.320
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know that we have any holes left

1:03:15.320 --> 1:03:17.200
<v Speaker 2>where there's bunker's right and left.

1:03:19.120 --> 1:03:21.760
<v Speaker 1>Is it? You know, for the last few years I

1:03:21.880 --> 1:03:27.160
<v Speaker 1>noticed things with just Instagram, and I feel like the

1:03:27.160 --> 1:03:32.920
<v Speaker 1>fascination with people for it, with Seth Rayner, you know, Langford, Moreau,

1:03:33.040 --> 1:03:37.040
<v Speaker 1>the and then you know that that more trench style

1:03:37.840 --> 1:03:43.880
<v Speaker 1>bunker and more geometric design features. It's at like a

1:03:43.880 --> 1:03:47.120
<v Speaker 1>fever pitch, but it's I've always it's been interesting because

1:03:48.440 --> 1:03:56.120
<v Speaker 1>from a new design and you know, renovation standpoint. Until

1:03:56.240 --> 1:03:58.680
<v Speaker 1>you guys were doing this, I hadn't really seen any

1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:02.120
<v Speaker 1>of it in America. Despite like I can tell from

1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:06.640
<v Speaker 1>just a photo standpoint that that's a popular people. It's

1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:10.720
<v Speaker 1>it appeals to people's eye. Do you think that it

1:04:10.720 --> 1:04:14.600
<v Speaker 1>could become kind of a new trend in design going

1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:17.640
<v Speaker 1>that more that way from the exposed sand.

1:04:20.000 --> 1:04:21.960
<v Speaker 3>Maybe maybe?

1:04:22.600 --> 1:04:25.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, I can't say that we were channeling the

1:04:25.160 --> 1:04:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Rain or Langford at Landard necessarily, you know, I was

1:04:28.320 --> 1:04:29.520
<v Speaker 2>thinking more of places like.

1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:37.800
<v Speaker 3>Hunter Combe and Myopia and Brookline. But yeah, I think.

1:04:39.160 --> 1:04:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I think there may be a bit of fatigue from

1:04:42.840 --> 1:04:48.160
<v Speaker 2>jagged edge, flashy bunkers. You know, it's ironic that, you know,

1:04:48.280 --> 1:04:51.240
<v Speaker 2>the reason we're working at Lantic right now is because

1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:55.480
<v Speaker 2>Brendan at Lanark loved our work at Hollywood, where they

1:04:55.520 --> 1:04:58.680
<v Speaker 2>have one hundred and eighty bunkers of every every shape

1:04:58.680 --> 1:05:02.240
<v Speaker 2>and size, and and at Lant we're doing almost the opposite.

1:05:02.280 --> 1:05:07.720
<v Speaker 2>But I do think that there's there's a growing reaction

1:05:07.800 --> 1:05:09.320
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of what's been built over the past

1:05:09.520 --> 1:05:10.280
<v Speaker 2>decade or two.

1:05:10.360 --> 1:05:13.640
<v Speaker 3>And and you know.

1:05:13.600 --> 1:05:18.200
<v Speaker 2>The blowout style bunker is beautiful, especially in a place

1:05:18.240 --> 1:05:23.680
<v Speaker 2>where it fits naturally. You know, the sand Hills probably

1:05:23.720 --> 1:05:27.040
<v Speaker 2>started that trend. And you know, if you look around

1:05:27.040 --> 1:05:29.280
<v Speaker 2>the golf course at the sand Hills, you see blowouts

1:05:29.400 --> 1:05:33.000
<v Speaker 2>out in the distance on land that's been grazed for

1:05:33.240 --> 1:05:35.440
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of years, and nobody's ever stuck a shovel in

1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:37.520
<v Speaker 2>the ground to build them.

1:05:37.880 --> 1:05:40.240
<v Speaker 3>In places like Pacific Dues in barn Google, and.

1:05:41.880 --> 1:05:44.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, anywhere somebody's working near the ocean and sand,

1:05:44.240 --> 1:05:47.560
<v Speaker 2>you're going to have blowout bunkers, and.

1:05:46.600 --> 1:05:48.680
<v Speaker 3>And it fits those locations.

1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:52.560
<v Speaker 2>But importing that onto a bunch of inland sites in Illinois,

1:05:52.640 --> 1:05:56.200
<v Speaker 2>Wisconsin or every state in the Union at this point

1:05:58.120 --> 1:05:59.960
<v Speaker 2>it probably gets little anonymous, and people might be able

1:06:00.120 --> 1:06:02.080
<v Speaker 2>the idea of something that looks a little bit different

1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:06.320
<v Speaker 2>that the new south Course at Arkadia Bluffs is certainly

1:06:06.400 --> 1:06:11.320
<v Speaker 2>a rest of that of that theory of yours. And

1:06:12.440 --> 1:06:14.240
<v Speaker 2>I played that last time. I really enjoyed.

1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:17.760
<v Speaker 3>It, not necessarily because of the aesthetic. You know.

1:06:18.000 --> 1:06:20.840
<v Speaker 2>That's the funny thing to me about, you know, the

1:06:20.920 --> 1:06:24.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of the current infatuation with Rayner and McDonald is

1:06:24.280 --> 1:06:27.120
<v Speaker 2>that everyone's focused on the look of their work and

1:06:27.240 --> 1:06:31.840
<v Speaker 2>the templates as opposed to just the really cool, interesting

1:06:31.840 --> 1:06:32.880
<v Speaker 2>gulf that they created.

1:06:33.040 --> 1:06:37.320
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's it's much more than an aesthetic. And

1:06:37.320 --> 1:06:39.840
<v Speaker 3>and I think people, you know, I think that's.

1:06:40.880 --> 1:06:44.720
<v Speaker 2>The current bunker craze or the kind of the phase

1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:49.360
<v Speaker 2>removement of the jagged edge blowouts. You know, when minimalism

1:06:49.400 --> 1:06:53.560
<v Speaker 2>became a really popular thing, it quickly became identified with

1:06:53.640 --> 1:07:00.000
<v Speaker 2>an esthetic and and people associated that bunker look with minimalism,

1:07:00.720 --> 1:07:04.680
<v Speaker 2>so that, oh, if we build jagged, natural looking bunkers,

1:07:04.680 --> 1:07:08.400
<v Speaker 2>we're minimalist too, And you know, completely missing the greater

1:07:08.480 --> 1:07:12.480
<v Speaker 2>point that minimalism is as a philosophy or an approach

1:07:12.560 --> 1:07:13.760
<v Speaker 2>to construction and design.

1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:15.320
<v Speaker 3>It has nothing to do with aesthetics.

1:07:15.400 --> 1:07:18.440
<v Speaker 2>And you know, some of the places where minimalism was

1:07:19.560 --> 1:07:23.080
<v Speaker 2>first and most notably practiced happened to have that aesthetic.

1:07:24.440 --> 1:07:30.880
<v Speaker 2>But the aesthetic doesn't make the doesn't make something minimalist.

1:07:31.600 --> 1:07:35.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a philosophy of design and construction more

1:07:35.600 --> 1:07:36.080
<v Speaker 2>than anything.

1:07:36.520 --> 1:07:40.360
<v Speaker 1>The ironic thing, too, is from a maintenance standpoint, those

1:07:40.400 --> 1:07:45.760
<v Speaker 1>above ground features that you're building at atlant Eric are

1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:50.400
<v Speaker 1>more minimal in terms of maintenance than a bunker.

1:07:52.400 --> 1:07:54.240
<v Speaker 3>We'll see.

1:07:54.960 --> 1:07:57.360
<v Speaker 2>I look forward to hearing Brennan's thoughts on that, but

1:07:57.560 --> 1:08:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I think I think they should be. There's certainly a

1:08:01.880 --> 1:08:02.600
<v Speaker 2>lot cheaper to build.

1:08:02.680 --> 1:08:03.880
<v Speaker 3>You know. Part of what.

1:08:05.480 --> 1:08:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Initiated the work we did there, or the style of

1:08:09.000 --> 1:08:12.280
<v Speaker 2>work we did there, was the fact that you know,

1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:14.680
<v Speaker 2>construction always generates a lot of stuff you need to

1:08:14.680 --> 1:08:17.479
<v Speaker 2>get rid of, whether it's old greensmans or drain tile

1:08:17.680 --> 1:08:19.680
<v Speaker 2>or sod. You know, there's a lot of sod that

1:08:19.760 --> 1:08:22.280
<v Speaker 2>get stripped when you're doing work, and you got to

1:08:22.439 --> 1:08:25.160
<v Speaker 2>put that somewhere. And they don't have a lot of space.

1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:27.200
<v Speaker 2>It's a really compact property. They don't have space to

1:08:27.240 --> 1:08:28.640
<v Speaker 2>store any of that stuff. They don't have a big

1:08:28.720 --> 1:08:31.120
<v Speaker 2>dump to lose it in, and they certainly didn't want

1:08:31.160 --> 1:08:33.479
<v Speaker 2>to pay to haul it all off property, so we

1:08:33.520 --> 1:08:36.360
<v Speaker 2>had to lose it somewhere. But you don't want to

1:08:36.360 --> 1:08:38.400
<v Speaker 2>bury much bold sod and moulins and let that stuff

1:08:38.439 --> 1:08:41.720
<v Speaker 2>decompose and see what it turns into. So we dug

1:08:41.760 --> 1:08:44.880
<v Speaker 2>berry pits around the property and buried all the sod

1:08:44.960 --> 1:08:47.080
<v Speaker 2>in there. But that generated a lot of material that

1:08:47.120 --> 1:08:47.479
<v Speaker 2>we had to.

1:08:47.439 --> 1:08:47.960
<v Speaker 3>Do something with.

1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:51.000
<v Speaker 2>And if we were going to dig bunkers, we were

1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:52.920
<v Speaker 2>just going to generate more material and we'd have to lose.

1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:55.559
<v Speaker 2>So instead of building more bunkers, we turned all the

1:08:55.560 --> 1:08:57.880
<v Speaker 2>material into the above ground stuff that we created.

1:08:59.240 --> 1:09:03.160
<v Speaker 3>So there was definitely an economy of construction building those things.

1:09:04.000 --> 1:09:05.920
<v Speaker 2>We were losing material that we had to lose somewhere

1:09:06.600 --> 1:09:09.320
<v Speaker 2>and we got to bury a bunch of stuff, so

1:09:09.600 --> 1:09:12.240
<v Speaker 2>particularly that you know, would have cost a lot of

1:09:12.240 --> 1:09:13.400
<v Speaker 2>money to haul off site.

1:09:13.880 --> 1:09:16.760
<v Speaker 1>In a way, it has been a hale. It wasn't

1:09:16.760 --> 1:09:18.160
<v Speaker 1>as the animalist construction.

1:09:18.960 --> 1:09:22.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, And you know there's no associated cost for

1:09:22.120 --> 1:09:25.200
<v Speaker 2>bunker liners and bunker sand and the things that go

1:09:25.280 --> 1:09:29.880
<v Speaker 2>with building modern bunkers now, which is getting you know,

1:09:31.040 --> 1:09:34.000
<v Speaker 2>that is getting extraordinarily expensive, especially in that part of

1:09:34.000 --> 1:09:36.839
<v Speaker 2>the country. You know, things are really expensive in the Northeast.

1:09:36.840 --> 1:09:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Shipping costs, materials costs, bunkers are getting really expensive, and

1:09:41.040 --> 1:09:44.600
<v Speaker 2>the labor to maintain them is really expensive. But the

1:09:44.680 --> 1:09:47.680
<v Speaker 2>construction costs, I'm sure what we did was a lot

1:09:47.760 --> 1:09:49.360
<v Speaker 2>less expensive than building a bunch of bunkers.

1:09:50.880 --> 1:09:53.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and that's the way the old guys did you know.

1:09:53.160 --> 1:09:53.920
<v Speaker 3>That's that's one.

1:09:53.840 --> 1:09:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Of the things that we're building some we're restoring some

1:09:55.800 --> 1:09:59.960
<v Speaker 2>mounting in North Jersey now too. And again the construction process.

1:10:00.000 --> 1:10:01.680
<v Speaker 2>And they built that calf course. It's a it's a

1:10:01.760 --> 1:10:06.120
<v Speaker 2>rocky place and they generated rocks for years there. For

1:10:06.200 --> 1:10:08.639
<v Speaker 2>the first five years or so of the golf course's existence,

1:10:09.360 --> 1:10:11.599
<v Speaker 2>members carried a little bag with them as they played golf,

1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:13.559
<v Speaker 2>and they would pick up rocks in the fairways as

1:10:13.560 --> 1:10:16.040
<v Speaker 2>they played and dump them in piles adjacent to the fairways.

1:10:16.880 --> 1:10:21.280
<v Speaker 2>That went on for years, So you know, the rocks

1:10:21.280 --> 1:10:23.360
<v Speaker 2>that were generated in the construction process and the rocks

1:10:23.360 --> 1:10:25.120
<v Speaker 2>that the members were picking up turned into features on

1:10:25.120 --> 1:10:27.760
<v Speaker 2>the golf course and instead of building a bunch of

1:10:27.760 --> 1:10:30.880
<v Speaker 2>bunkers and rock Travis hues mallins instead.

1:10:31.800 --> 1:10:32.599
<v Speaker 1>How neat is that?

1:10:33.680 --> 1:10:35.639
<v Speaker 3>That's pretty cool? That's pretty cool.

1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:39.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean in evolving, you know, like the more the

1:10:39.280 --> 1:10:41.880
<v Speaker 1>more years up, and the more mounds and more rock

1:10:42.000 --> 1:10:44.519
<v Speaker 1>mounds and more. Yeah, it's just kind of a neat

1:10:44.520 --> 1:10:45.040
<v Speaker 1>little thing.

1:10:45.840 --> 1:10:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, tells me how crazy golfers were back in the day,

1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:50.000
<v Speaker 2>how badly they wanted a golf course and they were

1:10:50.000 --> 1:10:51.320
<v Speaker 2>willing to pick up rocks for years.

1:10:53.360 --> 1:10:55.120
<v Speaker 3>I'm not sure many people would go for that today.

1:10:55.479 --> 1:11:03.000
<v Speaker 1>It's almost more more adventurous, right, absolutely. So the thing

1:11:03.040 --> 1:11:06.519
<v Speaker 1>you said about Rayner, you play out of James Hall,

1:11:07.720 --> 1:11:10.960
<v Speaker 1>and that strikes me as a perfect example where people

1:11:11.040 --> 1:11:14.160
<v Speaker 1>are fascinated with the templates and everything. But you know,

1:11:14.200 --> 1:11:19.080
<v Speaker 1>when you the most the kind of crescendo of that

1:11:19.200 --> 1:11:22.639
<v Speaker 1>golf course where it hits the great Land is filled

1:11:22.640 --> 1:11:25.800
<v Speaker 1>with very few templates. You know, on that eleven through

1:11:26.840 --> 1:11:30.240
<v Speaker 1>fifteen stretch of holes, you know, you start to hit

1:11:30.280 --> 1:11:32.439
<v Speaker 1>the you know, you kind of are getting to the

1:11:32.479 --> 1:11:37.280
<v Speaker 1>meat of the guitar solo if you want to, compared

1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:40.840
<v Speaker 1>to like a great rock song, and you're hitting these

1:11:41.120 --> 1:11:44.280
<v Speaker 1>holes and very few of them are are status quo templates.

1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:47.559
<v Speaker 1>Obviously you have the Knoll, but and the Eden Hole

1:11:47.640 --> 1:11:50.880
<v Speaker 1>in there, but it you know, the ground is more

1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:51.360
<v Speaker 1>of the star.

1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:53.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's funny.

1:11:53.680 --> 1:11:56.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean eleven is the Maiden and that you mentioned

1:11:56.600 --> 1:11:59.920
<v Speaker 2>fourteen is the knoll, but you know the fourteenth and ya,

1:12:00.160 --> 1:12:03.479
<v Speaker 2>this doesn't look much like the knoll at Piping Rock

1:12:03.680 --> 1:12:07.240
<v Speaker 2>or Scott's Craig. You know, it just it's just they

1:12:07.320 --> 1:12:09.240
<v Speaker 2>tacked that label on because the green is jacked up

1:12:09.280 --> 1:12:11.439
<v Speaker 2>in the air. But you know, from t to green,

1:12:11.479 --> 1:12:14.200
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't really resemble many other Knowle holes. And you

1:12:14.200 --> 1:12:16.400
<v Speaker 2>could say the same for the Maiden hole, which is

1:12:16.439 --> 1:12:17.000
<v Speaker 2>a great hole.

1:12:18.560 --> 1:12:22.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that was Rainer's to me, that.

1:12:22.360 --> 1:12:25.439
<v Speaker 2>Was his most amable quality was that dude could route

1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:28.040
<v Speaker 2>of golf course. You know, he found the places for

1:12:28.160 --> 1:12:31.040
<v Speaker 2>his templates, and which is a totally different routing process,

1:12:31.080 --> 1:12:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I think than just trying to find the best golf

1:12:33.840 --> 1:12:37.280
<v Speaker 2>holes on a property. When you're looking for fifteen or

1:12:37.280 --> 1:12:40.080
<v Speaker 2>eighteen or twenty two template holes on a property, it's

1:12:40.120 --> 1:12:43.840
<v Speaker 2>a different mindset than just laying something out with no

1:12:44.560 --> 1:12:46.160
<v Speaker 2>preconceived ideas.

1:12:46.600 --> 1:12:48.040
<v Speaker 3>But he did it really really well.

1:12:48.280 --> 1:12:52.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, he found his golf goals on his properties

1:12:53.960 --> 1:12:56.679
<v Speaker 2>in a way that they just lay beautifully.

1:12:56.120 --> 1:12:56.679
<v Speaker 3>On the ground.

1:12:56.720 --> 1:12:59.519
<v Speaker 2>And obviously he did a bunch of construction work around

1:12:59.520 --> 1:13:02.439
<v Speaker 2>his green side, but Tea de Green his courses worked

1:13:02.479 --> 1:13:04.320
<v Speaker 2>really well and he didn't have to do a lot

1:13:04.320 --> 1:13:04.720
<v Speaker 2>to build that.

1:13:06.760 --> 1:13:11.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's uh so, you know, given the circumstances, and

1:13:11.840 --> 1:13:14.800
<v Speaker 1>you're the first architect on that I've talked to since

1:13:14.960 --> 1:13:18.639
<v Speaker 1>this you know, virus and pandemic has kind of broken

1:13:18.640 --> 1:13:23.080
<v Speaker 1>out in America, and I'm curious, how has your business

1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:27.599
<v Speaker 1>yet or is it to be determined, been impacted by

1:13:27.920 --> 1:13:30.920
<v Speaker 1>and by the coronavirus.

1:13:30.920 --> 1:13:33.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh boy, that's.

1:13:33.080 --> 1:13:36.519
<v Speaker 2>Way above my pay grade to try and analyze. I'm

1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:37.639
<v Speaker 2>sure it'll be impacted.

1:13:38.680 --> 1:13:41.080
<v Speaker 3>You know. Right now, we've got a lot of things

1:13:41.120 --> 1:13:42.840
<v Speaker 3>that are temporarily temporarily on.

1:13:42.840 --> 1:13:49.160
<v Speaker 1>Hold from a you know, all things standpoint. Have you

1:13:49.240 --> 1:13:51.200
<v Speaker 1>seen anything with clubs.

1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's just leary right now. You know, there's so much

1:13:55.040 --> 1:14:00.720
<v Speaker 2>uncertainty that I think everyone is. Everyone is is hesitant

1:14:00.760 --> 1:14:05.280
<v Speaker 2>to move forward before we know where we are, number one,

1:14:05.280 --> 1:14:07.519
<v Speaker 2>and know where we're going. And you know, I feel

1:14:07.520 --> 1:14:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the same way personally. It's you know, travel is a

1:14:10.840 --> 1:14:15.439
<v Speaker 2>big part of our job, and I don't see myself

1:14:15.479 --> 1:14:19.000
<v Speaker 2>getting on an airplane anytime soon. I love a road trip.

1:14:19.000 --> 1:14:21.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm happy to drive anywhere in the country for work,

1:14:21.479 --> 1:14:23.720
<v Speaker 2>but I don't think I'm getting on an airplane. And

1:14:23.760 --> 1:14:25.880
<v Speaker 2>I suspect a lot of golfers probably feel the same way.

1:14:28.320 --> 1:14:31.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how that impacts places like band in

1:14:31.600 --> 1:14:38.679
<v Speaker 2>or cabin cliffs or streams song, but I think, you know,

1:14:38.880 --> 1:14:42.840
<v Speaker 2>there's certainly a massive loss of revenue in the short

1:14:42.920 --> 1:14:46.479
<v Speaker 2>term that impacts the way golf courses are being maintained

1:14:46.520 --> 1:14:49.320
<v Speaker 2>right now and are likely to be maintained for the

1:14:49.360 --> 1:14:50.320
<v Speaker 2>foreseeable future.

1:14:52.000 --> 1:14:53.120
<v Speaker 3>And maybe that's a good thing.

1:14:55.680 --> 1:14:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Maybe we can stop wasting money on a lot of

1:14:58.960 --> 1:15:00.760
<v Speaker 2>the things that really aren't employ and the golf course

1:15:00.800 --> 1:15:04.599
<v Speaker 2>maintenance and focus on the things that are and and

1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:09.240
<v Speaker 2>maybe that'll lead to more affordable maintenance. Therefore more affordable golf.

1:15:11.600 --> 1:15:14.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, the standard of maintenance has gotten so high

1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:18.320
<v Speaker 2>in this country to its own detriment. Really, I mean,

1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:21.280
<v Speaker 2>there is certainly a point of diminishing returns, and I

1:15:21.280 --> 1:15:24.559
<v Speaker 2>think a lot of clubs went beyond that years ago.

1:15:24.920 --> 1:15:28.280
<v Speaker 2>And you know that affects construction design too. You know,

1:15:28.280 --> 1:15:29.760
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the things are being built into golf

1:15:29.800 --> 1:15:33.720
<v Speaker 2>courses now are number one, really expensive to install and

1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:40.040
<v Speaker 2>number two really expensive to maintain. And the more things

1:15:40.040 --> 1:15:43.720
<v Speaker 2>you put underneath a USGA green, the more things there

1:15:43.720 --> 1:15:47.679
<v Speaker 2>are that can break. And you know that just means

1:15:47.680 --> 1:15:49.599
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna have to dig those greens out more often

1:15:49.880 --> 1:15:53.280
<v Speaker 2>going forward until you stop putting stuff under the greens.

1:15:53.000 --> 1:15:58.880
<v Speaker 3>That can break. So I hope there's a.

1:15:58.800 --> 1:16:01.360
<v Speaker 2>Little bit of a a little bit of an effect

1:16:01.840 --> 1:16:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and raining in some of the excesses if we've taken

1:16:06.360 --> 1:16:10.040
<v Speaker 2>to accept as now standard equipment, standard procedure.

1:16:11.520 --> 1:16:12.040
<v Speaker 3>But I don't know.

1:16:12.200 --> 1:16:16.000
<v Speaker 2>I think people in general, not just golfers, tend to

1:16:16.120 --> 1:16:21.120
<v Speaker 2>forget quickly, and I think as soon as golfers will

1:16:21.120 --> 1:16:25.320
<v Speaker 2>get back on their golf courses, they'll they'll quickly start

1:16:25.360 --> 1:16:27.519
<v Speaker 2>looking at the things that superintendent has been doing for

1:16:27.560 --> 1:16:29.240
<v Speaker 2>the past three months.

1:16:29.280 --> 1:16:31.400
<v Speaker 3>As opposed to just being happy they're back outside again.

1:16:31.479 --> 1:16:33.639
<v Speaker 3>But hopefully that's not the case.

1:16:34.040 --> 1:16:38.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm hoping for like a no rake movement from this.

1:16:38.920 --> 1:16:40.960
<v Speaker 3>That would be great. That would be great.

1:16:41.240 --> 1:16:42.920
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, if you could trust every golfer just to

1:16:42.920 --> 1:16:46.160
<v Speaker 2>smooth out their tracks with their foot and leave about

1:16:46.280 --> 1:16:49.360
<v Speaker 2>the left, that would be great.

1:16:48.880 --> 1:16:52.479
<v Speaker 1>Good talking about that possibly being a PGA tour thing,

1:16:52.560 --> 1:16:59.519
<v Speaker 1>no rakes, I like it. How would you compare the

1:16:59.560 --> 1:17:04.160
<v Speaker 1>feel of this with the eight financial crash from like

1:17:04.240 --> 1:17:07.760
<v Speaker 1>just a purely a business side of things, like the

1:17:07.800 --> 1:17:10.840
<v Speaker 1>way you feel with you know, golf courses on a

1:17:10.880 --> 1:17:15.000
<v Speaker 1>business front. Oh, sorry, this is a question.

1:17:17.000 --> 1:17:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's beyond my pay grade. Again, you know, I

1:17:27.080 --> 1:17:29.080
<v Speaker 2>have a hard time comparing.

1:17:29.120 --> 1:17:29.559
<v Speaker 3>I mean this.

1:17:31.120 --> 1:17:34.600
<v Speaker 2>That was that was scary to me in a certain way,

1:17:36.240 --> 1:17:40.720
<v Speaker 2>that revolved almost entirely round finances, you know, and this

1:17:40.800 --> 1:17:44.479
<v Speaker 2>is something completely different. You know, this is something completely different,

1:17:45.760 --> 1:17:51.680
<v Speaker 2>and it has massive financial impacts obviously, but first and

1:17:51.720 --> 1:17:55.040
<v Speaker 2>foremost it's about people's health and and.

1:17:55.040 --> 1:17:58.959
<v Speaker 3>I like to think that golf can be an important

1:17:59.080 --> 1:17:59.680
<v Speaker 3>part of.

1:18:01.439 --> 1:18:08.240
<v Speaker 2>Getting people back outdoors, getting people back socializing safely. I

1:18:08.280 --> 1:18:10.880
<v Speaker 2>think golf has always had done a poor job of

1:18:11.200 --> 1:18:16.000
<v Speaker 2>emphasizing the health benefits of getting outside and taking a

1:18:16.040 --> 1:18:16.920
<v Speaker 2>walk for four hours.

1:18:17.320 --> 1:18:20.160
<v Speaker 3>And you know, I've seen a.

1:18:20.080 --> 1:18:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Few clubs that have reopened lately that are apologizing for

1:18:23.360 --> 1:18:27.639
<v Speaker 2>the lack of carts and and I wish they would

1:18:27.640 --> 1:18:32.840
<v Speaker 2>take a different stance and celebrate it. I'd love to

1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:34.840
<v Speaker 2>see more people walking as a result of this. But

1:18:35.240 --> 1:18:38.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is this is a massive health crisis

1:18:38.840 --> 1:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>first and foremost. And I don't know how you compare

1:18:43.000 --> 1:18:45.400
<v Speaker 2>that to a strictly financial crisis like we had in

1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:46.240
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eight.

1:18:47.560 --> 1:18:48.439
<v Speaker 3>Strictly is the wrong word.

1:18:48.479 --> 1:18:52.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean, obviously any financial crisis has massive associated health

1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:53.360
<v Speaker 2>impacts as well.

1:18:54.840 --> 1:18:57.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is a this is a health a massive

1:18:57.400 --> 1:19:02.560
<v Speaker 1>health crisis that is having massive financial implications.

1:19:02.880 --> 1:19:05.519
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, I think that two thousand probably the other way.

1:19:06.080 --> 1:19:10.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I completely agree with that. So you know, we uh,

1:19:11.360 --> 1:19:14.280
<v Speaker 1>before we get you out of here, it'd be remiss

1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:17.120
<v Speaker 1>to you know, I think we the future, we'd hopefully

1:19:17.680 --> 1:19:21.880
<v Speaker 1>do a Langord Bureau pod with a few junkies, you know,

1:19:22.520 --> 1:19:25.840
<v Speaker 1>But I gotta I gotta ask you, you know, in

1:19:25.920 --> 1:19:28.760
<v Speaker 1>terms of from your standpoint, you grew up pretty close

1:19:28.800 --> 1:19:31.800
<v Speaker 1>to Lastonia, and I remember you saying when we were

1:19:31.800 --> 1:19:35.640
<v Speaker 1>on when we recorded Near bel Air that uh, you know,

1:19:35.680 --> 1:19:38.000
<v Speaker 1>that was kind of one of your first Aha moments

1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:41.960
<v Speaker 1>in terms of lang for Moreau, you know, what, what

1:19:42.400 --> 1:19:47.640
<v Speaker 1>aspects of their architecture do you admire the most?

1:19:48.240 --> 1:19:51.479
<v Speaker 3>They were nuts, They were crazy. The scale of their features,

1:19:51.520 --> 1:19:55.480
<v Speaker 3>Like if I go to the Sonia now or Culver.

1:19:57.200 --> 1:20:00.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, Harrison Hills, the scale the features those guys

1:20:00.920 --> 1:20:03.600
<v Speaker 2>built with the equipment they had back then, it was insane.

1:20:03.920 --> 1:20:05.600
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's it.

1:20:06.000 --> 1:20:09.400
<v Speaker 2>They moved a lot of material and the boldness of

1:20:09.439 --> 1:20:14.479
<v Speaker 2>the stuff they built it is pretty remarkable. You know,

1:20:14.600 --> 1:20:17.040
<v Speaker 2>Pete Dye would be the one guy who's probably approached

1:20:17.160 --> 1:20:22.400
<v Speaker 2>that level of boldness since. But the depths of the

1:20:22.439 --> 1:20:25.439
<v Speaker 2>bunkers and the size of the bunkers and the movement

1:20:25.479 --> 1:20:31.640
<v Speaker 2>in the greens is just big and wild fun and

1:20:31.720 --> 1:20:35.080
<v Speaker 2>I love, you know, their best courses. Again, going back

1:20:35.080 --> 1:20:37.720
<v Speaker 2>to where we started to have brilliant green complexes.

1:20:37.720 --> 1:20:38.519
<v Speaker 3>You go to a place like.

1:20:40.040 --> 1:20:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Kanka ki Elks, some fantastic greens there, and you know,

1:20:44.120 --> 1:20:45.879
<v Speaker 2>that's what I'd love to see restored.

1:20:45.920 --> 1:20:46.160
<v Speaker 3>You know that.

1:20:46.520 --> 1:20:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately Langford's courses have suffered so much neglect over the years,

1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and in a lot of cases that's helped preserve them.

1:20:52.880 --> 1:20:55.000
<v Speaker 2>But there there's still kind of a shell of what

1:20:55.040 --> 1:20:59.320
<v Speaker 2>they once were, which makes places like the Sonia all

1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:05.320
<v Speaker 2>the more special that it's presented really really well. Yeah,

1:21:05.320 --> 1:21:07.840
<v Speaker 2>there's just a kind of a daring and a boldness

1:21:07.880 --> 1:21:13.160
<v Speaker 2>to what they did that it's just it's fun golf,

1:21:13.320 --> 1:21:14.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's fun golf.

1:21:14.840 --> 1:21:17.760
<v Speaker 1>A buddy was doubted Harrison Hills the other day. He

1:21:17.840 --> 1:21:19.800
<v Speaker 1>sent me some picture. There's they've done a ton of

1:21:19.880 --> 1:21:20.599
<v Speaker 1>tree removal.

1:21:21.560 --> 1:21:23.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's good to hear.

1:21:23.840 --> 1:21:26.960
<v Speaker 1>Like, you know, the was it the fourteenth hole, the

1:21:26.960 --> 1:21:29.759
<v Speaker 1>one that goes down in the bottom before the short

1:21:29.800 --> 1:21:32.360
<v Speaker 1>part four up that had that green that had all

1:21:32.400 --> 1:21:35.320
<v Speaker 1>the trees on it. All the trees are off it nice.

1:21:35.439 --> 1:21:36.280
<v Speaker 3>That's a beautiful green.

1:21:36.560 --> 1:21:40.760
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god that if you restored that green, yep,

1:21:41.240 --> 1:21:41.719
<v Speaker 1>that would.

1:21:41.520 --> 1:21:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Be that's a great set of greens. Yeah. I love

1:21:45.960 --> 1:21:46.599
<v Speaker 3>seeing this stuff.

1:21:46.600 --> 1:21:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I wish there was more of it around, you know,

1:21:48.120 --> 1:21:50.839
<v Speaker 2>it's certainly there's none of my part.

1:21:50.640 --> 1:21:51.160
<v Speaker 3>Of the country.

1:21:51.200 --> 1:21:57.880
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, that's that's the thing is spent a I

1:21:57.960 --> 1:22:00.840
<v Speaker 1>love going down to Kankakee or up to Valley. It's

1:22:01.040 --> 1:22:05.320
<v Speaker 1>it's sad where they're at but still it's refreshing that

1:22:05.920 --> 1:22:09.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, so little of it's changed that it could

1:22:09.240 --> 1:22:12.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, when if some if the right thing came up,

1:22:12.400 --> 1:22:15.160
<v Speaker 1>they could be brushed up and every bay'd be like,

1:22:15.200 --> 1:22:17.920
<v Speaker 1>whoa wait, this place was just sitting here.

1:22:18.920 --> 1:22:21.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a blessing. They haven't had the money over

1:22:21.160 --> 1:22:24.000
<v Speaker 2>the last hundred years to screw them up. You know,

1:22:24.200 --> 1:22:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I'd much rather have them in this day right now

1:22:26.160 --> 1:22:28.960
<v Speaker 2>than humming along financially with a bunch of extra cash

1:22:28.960 --> 1:22:31.519
<v Speaker 2>in the bank. That that's something got the wrong idea with.

1:22:31.760 --> 1:22:36.080
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, Spring Valley's another one. I tend to forget

1:22:36.080 --> 1:22:38.360
<v Speaker 2>about that place, but it's there's a lot of cool

1:22:38.400 --> 1:22:38.960
<v Speaker 2>stuff there.

1:22:39.360 --> 1:22:43.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you got that. It's got for being forty five

1:22:43.080 --> 1:22:46.519
<v Speaker 1>minutes from Chicago. It's got topography you see nowhere else

1:22:46.800 --> 1:22:47.439
<v Speaker 1>in Chicago.

1:22:47.479 --> 1:22:51.679
<v Speaker 3>No, it's it's cool. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah. Yeah,

1:22:51.680 --> 1:22:52.840
<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of good golf there.

1:22:53.439 --> 1:22:57.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So, hey, I appreciate the time. You're you're a

1:22:57.560 --> 1:23:02.120
<v Speaker 1>new new favorite follow on Twitter. You've you've delve into

1:23:02.160 --> 1:23:05.479
<v Speaker 1>the platform and just become become an all star there.

1:23:06.120 --> 1:23:08.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about that, but that's what being in

1:23:08.439 --> 1:23:10.160
<v Speaker 2>quarantine does for you. I guess it gives you a

1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:13.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of time to waste your time on Twitter.

1:23:14.640 --> 1:23:16.639
<v Speaker 3>It's fun. There are a lot of people on there

1:23:16.640 --> 1:23:20.200
<v Speaker 3>sharing a lot of really cool so it's it's easy

1:23:20.240 --> 1:23:23.519
<v Speaker 3>to get It's easy to go down a rabbit hole

1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:24.360
<v Speaker 3>on Twitter, certainly.

1:23:24.960 --> 1:23:28.519
<v Speaker 1>So you're Bee Schneider one two six there is it

1:23:28.520 --> 1:23:29.800
<v Speaker 1>the same on Instagram?

1:23:30.479 --> 1:23:31.719
<v Speaker 3>I haven't the slightest idea.

1:23:31.880 --> 1:23:34.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it just look up to Brian Schneider. We'll include

1:23:34.960 --> 1:23:38.160
<v Speaker 1>in the show notes. But I I appreciate the time

1:23:38.240 --> 1:23:41.360
<v Speaker 1>and and uh coming on. It's been long overdue.

1:23:41.880 --> 1:23:43.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's been Funydie, thanks for having me.

1:23:43.680 --> 1:23:47.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well we'll talk soon. Hopefully. You gotta get out

1:23:47.120 --> 1:23:50.000
<v Speaker 1>to Old Town during this. When you got there, you're

1:23:50.040 --> 1:23:51.799
<v Speaker 1>gonna be driving through there all the time.

1:23:52.439 --> 1:23:53.000
<v Speaker 3>It is a goal.

1:23:53.080 --> 1:23:55.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I drove past I drove through North Carolina yesterday

1:23:55.439 --> 1:23:56.559
<v Speaker 2>and considered making.

1:23:56.320 --> 1:23:58.680
<v Speaker 3>The detour, but I don't know if this is the time. Yeah,

1:23:58.920 --> 1:24:00.680
<v Speaker 3>we'll get there soon. No, it's it's at the top

1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:20.640
<v Speaker 3>of my list. HM.