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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today I am joined by Brian Schneider. Brian has been

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Speaker 1: a longtime associate for Renaissance Golf Tom Doaks Design Firm.

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Speaker 1: He's worked on a number of high profile projects there

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Speaker 1: as well as consulted with many of the country's best clubs.

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Speaker 1: He has also done some individual design work. He and

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Speaker 1: some other Renaissance associates which we talk about, designed Stoton

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Speaker 1: Bray and recently he's done a redesign of the front

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Speaker 1: nine at Lanark Country Club in Philadelphia. One quick note

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Speaker 1: before we get into the podcast. We have a collection

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Speaker 1: of photos up on the website of Banded Dunes. There's

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Speaker 1: Banded Dunes, Pacific Dunes, a Pacific Trails, and the New

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Speaker 1: Sheep Ranch. All the proceeds from those photos sales go

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Speaker 1: to the Bandon Caddy Relief Fund, So that is going

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Speaker 1: to a good cause helping the newyear. Three hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty caddies that have been out of work for a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks now a handful of week so obviously

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Speaker 1: a good cause in keeping them on their feet during

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Speaker 1: this tough time that everybody's going through. I hope everybody

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Speaker 1: is safe and well and hopefully better times are coming.

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Speaker 1: And without further ado, here is Brian Schneider.

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Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when

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Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 3: And when I find my.

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Speaker 2: Ball in a bright egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida

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Speaker 2: egg Frida egg egg egg Frida egg bride egg lie,

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Speaker 2: I'm about ready to run.

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Speaker 1: Off the gump stuff looks cool at North Jersey.

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Speaker 3: It's a neat place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really neat place, and they've got i

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Speaker 2: think seven original greens left.

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Speaker 3: Which are all gorgeous, pretty wild, you know.

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Speaker 2: The other eleven have been rebuilt at various times and

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Speaker 2: aren't so interesting. But the club has been looking to

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Speaker 2: put that stuff back, so there's a lot of work

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Speaker 2: to do there eventually.

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Speaker 3: But we just got into a little bit of bunker work,

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Speaker 3: which was fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't have any It only had like twenty

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Speaker 2: bunkers to begin with. It's a rocky, hilly piece of

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Speaker 2: ground and didn't need much, so he didn't build any

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Speaker 2: bunkers there. So they've got like fifty five now. Most

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Speaker 2: of what we'll do with the bunkers just taking stuff out.

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Speaker 1: Is it hard to convince people to take bunkers out?

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Speaker 3: It hasn't been there, you know. But I'm not exposed

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Speaker 3: to the membership in a hole.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there may be a bunch of people behind

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Speaker 2: the scenes saying he's going to make it too easy,

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Speaker 2: this is gonna be boring, But the people I'm dealing

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Speaker 2: with are really excited, and you know, the superintendent is

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Speaker 2: obviously excited that he's going to have fewer bunkers to

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Speaker 2: take care of. It just doesn't need them, you know.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the stuff is just clutter at this

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Speaker 2: point there. They're really unnecessary to the bunkers that were

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Speaker 2: put in originally or plenty, and some of those.

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Speaker 3: Might even be necessary, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but like that where it's rocky and you've got

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Speaker 2: good topo, it really doesn't need bunkers, you know. And

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Speaker 2: we've added some short grass around the probably more difficult

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Speaker 2: for better players than if they missed in a bunker.

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Speaker 2: So it's a great set of the originals are great greens,

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Speaker 2: and it's it's got enough topography to be interesting.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't need a whole lot of bunkering.

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Speaker 1: Do they have a lot of photos old photos of

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Speaker 1: the non original greens.

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Speaker 2: Not really, No, that's the hard part. I've been digging.

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Speaker 2: My green chairman Ken Feren, has been doing a lot

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Speaker 2: of digging and he's come up with some great old picks.

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Speaker 2: But unfortunately, you know, they didn't host any USGA events

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Speaker 2: or any important events back in the day, which seems

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Speaker 2: to be the key to having a bunch of ground

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Speaker 2: level pictures taken. So we're struggling to find old stuff.

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Speaker 2: And the golf course evolved a lot early on, so

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Speaker 2: pinning down a period we want to go back to

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Speaker 2: a little tricky too. We've got a couple of decent

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Speaker 2: ground level pictures of what the bunkers looked like to

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Speaker 2: go from, and we've got vague ideas and recollections of

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Speaker 2: a few of the greens. But I think when we

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Speaker 2: get around to it, we'll just have to build something

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Speaker 2: that looks and feels like Travis maybe still an ideas

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Speaker 2: from its other golf courses.

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Speaker 1: Is that is that basically what you do when you

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Speaker 1: don't have you look at the courses you visited and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I love the screen from here, let's do

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Speaker 1: something similar to that.

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Speaker 3: I think, so, you know, I haven't been in that

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Speaker 3: situation all that much.

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Speaker 2: You know, most of my consulting clients still have a

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Speaker 2: lot of their original greens, so North Jersey's unusual and

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Speaker 2: that they've lost more than half of them. But that's

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Speaker 2: my approach there, you know, I first just try to

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Speaker 2: find out everything we can about what was there, including

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Speaker 2: talking to members that might remember how they used to

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Speaker 2: play and that sort of thing. Yeah, I'm just trying

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Speaker 2: to find out as much as I can about the

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Speaker 2: old greens that used to be there, and then match

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Speaker 2: that up with something I might have seen that one

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Speaker 2: of his other golf courses and use that as inspiration.

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Speaker 1: What, uh you I know, Hollywood was a big influence

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Speaker 1: in your love of Travis. What are some of your

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Speaker 1: other favorite, uh, Walter Travis courses that obviously a garden

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Speaker 1: city and Hollywood you've worked on, but that you've seen

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Speaker 1: in recent years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Hollywood was was the one that really opened my eyes.

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Speaker 2: That in the country Club at Scranton. You know, I

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Speaker 2: saw that probably ten years ago for the first time.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if you've been up there, but

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Speaker 2: they've got fifteen original greens that are as good as

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Speaker 2: any set of greens in the country, and they are phenomenal,

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Speaker 2: you know, from pretty subtle rippolice stuff on the ground

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Speaker 2: to really wild severe you know, some fallaway stuff. But

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Speaker 2: it's a beautiful set of greens and the routing is

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Speaker 2: pretty well intact. They we did the bunkers a few

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Speaker 2: years back, which they didn't try to restore anything in

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Speaker 2: that process, but the greens there are amazing.

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Speaker 3: So between that in Hollywood, those are the places that

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Speaker 3: really lit the fire. You know.

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Speaker 2: Cape Rundle's an amazing place. Chruce Hepner has done a

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Speaker 2: great job of helping them restore and preserve that golf course.

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Speaker 2: You know they've got you know, that one's really well

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Speaker 2: intact as well as any I would.

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Speaker 1: Say, that's what everybody can go see, which is you

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Speaker 1: know it is.

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Speaker 2: It's such a cool place, you know, it's it's packed

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Speaker 2: into a really tidy grage. I don't even know what

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Speaker 2: power is, but it's a tiny golf course, but there's

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Speaker 2: plenty of golf there for anyone.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's that's America's North Barrack.

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Speaker 2: It's just funky and quirky and fun, you know, and

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Speaker 2: such a cool vibe. And you're right, anybody can go

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Speaker 2: play there and run into a president.

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Speaker 3: Maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I come up with like a list of five

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Speaker 1: courses I want to see every year, and that one's

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Speaker 1: been on it for three years. It's just like I

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Speaker 1: just have to get up there. And now, you know,

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Speaker 1: with what's going on in the world, this is uh,

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Speaker 1: this year might get washed out of it too. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's uh, that one, I guess is high on my

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Speaker 1: list of places to see. I'm curious about. You know, everybody, Oh,

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Speaker 1: this great set of greens, great set of greens. What

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Speaker 1: when you're trying to still down what makes a great

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Speaker 1: set of greens into like, you know why?

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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 1: The key features or principles of what makes in your

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Speaker 1: mind a great set of greens at a golf.

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Speaker 3: Course a couple of things. You know.

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Speaker 2: The first thing that pops into my mind is, you know,

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Speaker 2: just the shots around the green when you miss agree,

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Speaker 2: you know, the shots into the greens. You know, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people talk about strategy and how the green

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Speaker 2: sets up. You know, if the pins back here, you

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Speaker 2: want to drive it right so you can get at

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Speaker 2: that whole location and that sort of thing, and that's great,

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Speaker 2: you know, having a variety of whole locations within a

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Speaker 2: green that dictate or suggests different strategies from day to

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Speaker 2: day is a great thing, especially at a members club, But

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't hit greens very often, you know,

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Speaker 2: And and if it's boring when you miss agree, and

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Speaker 2: even if the strategy is interesting off the tee and

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Speaker 2: setting up the approach shot, you know, if there's not

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Speaker 2: something interesting to do once you miss agree, then it

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Speaker 2: doesn't really hold your attention long term, especially again at

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Speaker 2: a members club where you're playing every day. So I

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Speaker 2: think you know the variety of shots around the green,

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Speaker 2: so that missing right is different than missing left is

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Speaker 2: different than missing short, is missing long, you know, and

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Speaker 2: where you want to miss the green changes from day

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Speaker 2: to day as well.

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Speaker 3: I think that's important to me.

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Speaker 2: One of the big things is variety throughout the set

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Speaker 2: of greens, so you know, it's not eighteen of a

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Speaker 2: type from beginning to end, that you come across a

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Speaker 2: little bit of everything. And when you walk off the

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Speaker 2: eighteenth green and are driving home afterwards, you can remember

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Speaker 2: a lot of the greens individually that they don't just

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Speaker 2: blend together as a set.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to think.

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Speaker 2: Of places like that, you know, Indian Wood, the old

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Speaker 2: course of Indian Wood in Michigan. I remember going walking

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Speaker 2: around there years ago. You know, you get to the

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Speaker 2: first green, Wow, this is really cool green. The second green, Man,

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Speaker 2: this is a really cool green. By the time you're

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Speaker 2: halfway through, I sensed a pattern, but this is a

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Speaker 2: really neat green. It's so cool that they did it

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Speaker 2: seventeen times. Then eighteen is totally different there. But there

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Speaker 2: are some greens like that where you know, you always

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Speaker 2: have to miss short or you know, they all slope

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Speaker 2: back to front, even if they have cool conjour. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of courses like that where the

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Speaker 2: greens individually are great, but as a set, you're not

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Speaker 2: running into something different from hole to hole.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're talking about maybe a set of greens

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Speaker 1: that they're all, you know, severely sloped back to front,

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Speaker 1: and you know they and I think obviously certain construction

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Speaker 1: methods would lend themselves to certain types of slopes, like

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Speaker 1: the you know, the the push up, the kind of

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Speaker 1: the big bold features of a Langford Barreau green. The

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Speaker 1: big edges make it tough to have fallaway greens. Yep,

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Speaker 1: And that might be a criticism of of of theirs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, wing foot's another example that pops into

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Speaker 2: my head the West Course. It's you know, that's a

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Speaker 2: great set of greens really, but you know, if you

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Speaker 2: miss short eighteen times there, you've done pretty well. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can't be missing right or left at wing foot

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Speaker 2: all day long and you're in for a long day.

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Speaker 2: Seminoles kind of the same way. Yeah, And to your

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Speaker 2: point Langford Moreau, you know Banks rainer to a certain degree.

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Speaker 2: You know, missing right and left is trouble and long

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Speaker 2: in a lot of cases, you know that the miss

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Speaker 2: is all the smartness is almost always short.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the best sets.

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Speaker 2: Of greens have more right in that and where you

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Speaker 2: want to miss, including long. Garden City has a handful

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Speaker 2: of greens we're missing along is the good miss and

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Speaker 2: that you don't see very often.

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Speaker 3: But that's really cool. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think the thing that is cool about that is

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Speaker 1: it's that idea of counterintuitiveness and also tricking like it

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Speaker 1: where it doesn't reveal itself upon the first play. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times you learn after you've played it at

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Speaker 1: least once, maybe a handful of times, where the best

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Speaker 1: place to miss, like you know, certain greens is missing short.

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Speaker 1: Something that jumps to mind is like the Stonewall North

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Speaker 1: the first green is if you miss short there. I

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Speaker 1: played there a few years ago in the midam, and

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Speaker 1: I remember I hit a bad drive and I had

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Speaker 1: a chip and I had this thirty yard pitch to

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Speaker 1: the and it was downwind, and I'm just like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, this is the worst place I could be,

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Speaker 1: you know, because it's just rocketing away. But the only

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Speaker 1: way you know that is if you've played it a

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Speaker 1: handful of times. And that's something I picked up on

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Speaker 1: my practice round, because you're just going through it and

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Speaker 1: you're you know, you hit it in there, and you

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Speaker 1: know if you didn't hit it short, you don't really know.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes, yeah, the majority of amateurs miss short unintentionally. You

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Speaker 3: know that they rarely get past the hole. You know

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Speaker 3: that applies to prose to but to a much lesser degree.

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Speaker 3: But most amateurs never get past the hole.

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Speaker 2: So making past the hole the place to miss is,

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Speaker 2: to your point, really the counterintuitive and probably uncomfortable for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, which is why people may have

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Speaker 2: an aversion to fall away.

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Speaker 3: Greens or one of the reasons.

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Speaker 2: But you know that the original Dan at North Barrack,

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Speaker 2: anytime I play that hole I'm taking an extra club

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Speaker 2: and trying.

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Speaker 3: To pull it long left.

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Speaker 2: If I don't hit the green, I've got a reasonable

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Speaker 2: chance of getting up and down from back there.

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Speaker 3: You miss anywhere else in your debt.

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Speaker 1: I think, But I think that's interesting and a lot

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Speaker 1: of times I feel like people will label greens unfair

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Speaker 1: that are ones that require thought and sometimes multiple players

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Speaker 1: to understand how to play them. Do you do you

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Speaker 1: feel that as an architect?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, I think you're right, and you hit on

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Speaker 2: the problem is that a lot of people, especially nowadays,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people when they're traveling to play golf,

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Speaker 2: they're traveling somewhere once and then going somewhere else the

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Speaker 2: next time, and somewhere else the next time, and apart

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Speaker 2: from the place you play most often, you know, you're

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Speaker 2: not getting a chance to learn the nuances of a

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Speaker 2: lot of the places you play when you're just balancing

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Speaker 2: around from one to another.

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Speaker 3: And you know, a place like St. Andrew's takes dozens

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Speaker 3: or hundreds of rounds to really reveal itself and to be.

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Speaker 2: To allow you to get the most out of the

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Speaker 2: playing experience. You know, I feel bad for people that

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Speaker 2: go to St. Andrews once and their caddy points at

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Speaker 2: something in the distance top every tee and tells him

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Speaker 2: where to hit the shots, because it's such a complex

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Speaker 2: place that only gets more interesting and more fun the

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Speaker 2: more you get to know it. But that's not the

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Speaker 2: way a lot of people play golf these days. But

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Speaker 2: you're right, the subtlety takes time to understand, and it

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Speaker 2: takes more than one round to appreciate your question about unfair.

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Speaker 3: People.

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Speaker 2: Demon Green's unfair made me think of a around. I

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Speaker 2: played at Hollywood a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 3: Have you been there? I don't know if you've bet

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Speaker 3: I haven't.

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Speaker 1: Also one of my one of my courses on my list.

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Speaker 3: Good good, hope you got a big list?

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Speaker 1: Well, I do five. I set up five because I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's a reasonable number that I could actually

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Speaker 1: achieve in a year. And then, you know, five means

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Speaker 1: there's a bunch around the five.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the five you finally said thirty more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's like five, but then it's the surrounding

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Speaker 1: area included.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I played Hollywood a couple years ago with with a

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Speaker 2: great amateur player too really but a great mid am

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Speaker 2: and a great junior player, and we got to the

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Speaker 2: seventh hole, which is a really good mid length Part five,

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Speaker 2: which those guys played essentially is a mid length Part four.

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Speaker 3: You know, both hit long drives, both had mid irons

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Speaker 3: in if I remember right. But the green is really.

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Speaker 2: Kind of deep and narrow and angles from front right

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Speaker 2: uphill to the back left and it's like four tiers.

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Speaker 2: The back tier is really tiny, and they'd put the

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Speaker 2: pin in the back that day and it probably falls

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Speaker 2: I don't know, six or seven feet from back to front,

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Speaker 2: like if you missed long.

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Speaker 3: You're dead.

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Speaker 2: And of course the mid am kind of blocked his

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Speaker 2: t shot out to the right. It did a really

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Speaker 2: good shot from over there and ended up in the

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Speaker 2: rough past the hole and was debt, you know, had nothing,

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Speaker 2: and proceeded his next shot kind of loosely trickled off

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Speaker 2: the front of the green and was pitching back up

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Speaker 2: the hill with his fourth and walked off just shaking

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Speaker 2: his head, like, you know, what a stupid green. You know,

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Speaker 2: I really liked the golf course so far, but that

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Speaker 2: great is stupid.

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Speaker 3: That whole sucks.

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Speaker 2: You know, It's like number one, it's apart five you

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Speaker 2: just hit six or a seven iron into and number

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Speaker 2: two you missed in the one play place you couldn't

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Speaker 2: miss and if you ever played it again, you would know,

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Speaker 2: can't be.

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Speaker 3: Above the hole on that on that hole. But you

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Speaker 3: know his.

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Speaker 2: Judgment was that green stupid. They should blow that up.

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Speaker 2: I hate this course because of that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't his fault at all. It was

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Speaker 2: the Gulfs. But it is interesting how people find something

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Speaker 2: else to blame as opposed to thinking about it for

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Speaker 2: a second and realizing they couldn't missed anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: It's I think it partially stems from, you know, the

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Speaker 1: how America the main format of the game's stroke play

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Speaker 1: versus match play.

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Speaker 2: I agree, Yeah, I think that I don't keep scoring ever,

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Speaker 2: But I think you're right.

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Speaker 3: I think you know, if you would have just.

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Speaker 2: Lost the hole there and it woul a you know,

339
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 2: it was a casual match and was competing for anything.

340
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Speaker 2: But yeah, if you're in a match with somebody and

341
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Speaker 2: you have to take a seven when you're hoping to

342
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 2: make a four, it's a little harder to swallow than

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00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,399
Speaker 2: if you just lose one hold of the move on to.

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Speaker 3: The next one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like in that situation.

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Speaker 3: Different in America than in the UK certainly that situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if he makes a six and is the guy's

348
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 1: playing makes a four and he realized that, you know,

349
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,959
Speaker 1: it was going to be really hard to get up

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Speaker 1: and down either way from back there for four, and

351
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Speaker 1: it's a completely different feeling walking off the green. And

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Speaker 1: that's you know, one of the things that I always say, Oh,

353
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Speaker 1: it's a great match play course, it would be a

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Speaker 1: terrible stroke play course, Like what does that even mean?

355
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Speaker 3: You know, I'm curious about that too.

356
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Speaker 2: You know, there's a I haven't been to a Hoopie yet,

357
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,359
Speaker 2: but you know it's certainly marketed as a match play

358
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Speaker 2: club in a match play golf course, and I can't

359
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 2: put the life and me understand really what that means

360
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Speaker 2: or what an architect would do differently if it was

361
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Speaker 2: if it was a stroke play club, for instance.

362
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Speaker 3: You know, I don't know what that means.

363
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 2: I think designing for magic play in general makes is

364
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 2: a worthy goal that we shouldn't be designing for stroke

365
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Speaker 2: play to begin with. So I'm curious what he did

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Speaker 2: differently there that he wouldn't have done if it hadn't

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Speaker 2: been labeled to match play course.

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Speaker 1: So what he said to me was that he felt

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Speaker 1: he could he had a little bit more freedom on

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Speaker 1: the greens, which is kind of exactly what we're talking about,

371
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Speaker 1: where he felt like he could he could build a

372
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:37,439
Speaker 1: little bit more boldly, with a little bit more severe contours,

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Speaker 1: because nobody's gonna play ping pong and write and aid

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Speaker 1: on the card.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'll buy that.

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Speaker 1: That's that's what That's what he said.

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Speaker 3: At least. Okay, so that makes sense.

378
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Speaker 1: You know, you brought up the Old Course earlier, and

379
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Speaker 1: I was I was curious to say, you were with

380
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 1: somebody that knew nothing about golf ark attacture, beginning golfer,

381
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 1: and you you were gonna you had the budget, you

382
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: could go to five courses to show them, you know,

383
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 1: kind of introduce them to the game of golf and

384
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Speaker 1: golf architecture. Where would you go?

385
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Speaker 3: The Old Course is certainly number one.

386
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Speaker 2: For a million reasons, but mostly because I think it's

387
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Speaker 2: still the most fun and interesting place in the world

388
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Speaker 2: to play, which to me is pretty remarkable.

389
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Speaker 3: You know, there aren't many things in.

390
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Speaker 1: This world.

391
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 2: That you can point to the first example and stay,

392
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 2: you know, six hundred years later, that's still the best

393
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 2: of its type. That absolutely nailed it. The first time around,

394
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 2: and I feel that way about the old course. I

395
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 2: think it's magical that way, and it's it's such a

396
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 2: different style of golf that even six hundred years later,

397
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 2: no one else has quite been able to match the

398
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 2: style of golf do you find in Saint Andrews and

399
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 2: it you know, it's a million so called rules of

400
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 2: modern architecture in the process. And I think that's important

401
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:11,439
Speaker 2: for someone to understand when learning about architecture, is that

402
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 2: there there really aren't and shouldn't be many rules to

403
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,120
Speaker 2: what you can do. And for that reason, I think

404
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 2: North Bear can probably be another place I would take

405
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: someone while you're there, you know, for all the odd, quirky,

406
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: weird things that you see there and don't see anywhere

407
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: else that make that golf course as fun as any

408
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 2: place you could ever hope to play. And it's beautiful,

409
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 2: you know, it's a beautiful spot. You're never more than

410
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: a par five from the ocean when you're playing there.

411
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 2: The wind is always blowing. People play quickly. There are

412
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 2: a lot of lessons to be learned in North Barrick too.

413
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 3: Now it's a little tough, you know.

414
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 2: The National obviously is probably my favorite golf course in

415
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: America and another place where you know. I wrote years

416
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 2: ago that you can learn more in the first six

417
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 2: holes of the National that you can learn on any

418
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 2: golf course except for Saint Andrews, and I think that's true.

419
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 2: I mean, if you go through the first six holes there,

420
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 2: you've got really a little bit of everything, and a

421
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff most golfers had never seen before, and

422
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: all works beautifully. It's so much fun to play, you know,

423
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: just the scale of the scale of the golf there,

424
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 2: the wild contouring of those greens. You know, the shortest

425
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: hole the golf course has. I don't think it's the

426
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: biggest green, but it's right up there, you know, the

427
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: sixth hole.

428
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: This is the scariest green.

429
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 3: It is, it's not. Yeah, it's great.

430
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: Each little target is really tiny, and the penalty for

431
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,719
Speaker 2: missing where you want to be is can be pretty severe,

432
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: especially on the green in the wrong place.

433
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: That's that's an example of the green many people within

434
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: is unfair.

435
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 3: You're probably right, you're probably right. But it's so much fun. Oh,

436
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: it's so much fun.

437
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 2: And I can get your buddy when he's on the

438
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: wrong side of the wrong side of the green. You

439
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 2: know if he's on the right side and the holes

440
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 2: cut left. Just watching him try and get it anywhere close,

441
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 2: it's a.

442
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: Lot of fun.

443
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: The last time I played it, I uh, the pin

444
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: was right right in front of that bunker and I

445
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: came up like two yards short and it spins it

446
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: down and I'm in the front and I had this.

447
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: I looked at it. I looked at the putt and

448
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: I'm looking and I'm like, if I try and make this,

449
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 1: if it doesn't go in, it's going into the bunker.

450
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: And I ended up. I was like so happy. I

451
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: was like, I have to lay up, and I like

452
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 1: laid up to twelve feet and made the twelve foot

453
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 1: but I it was I was so I had so

454
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: much fun doing that. But so many people would say

455
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: this is dumb, you know, and I felt such a

456
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: like it felt like a birdie going to the next hole.

457
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, trying to make the best score doesn't always mean

458
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: trying to make the next shot.

459
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: You know.

460
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 2: It's like, where can I leave this to give myself

461
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: the best of making a good score as opposed to

462
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: a terrible score. And on that whole you know, who

463
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: knows where your your opponent was. But odds are good.

464
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 2: They were in a tricky situation too, and and there

465
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: aren't any easy up and downs on that hole or

466
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: easy two putts.

467
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a great green it is.

468
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 3: It's such a great place.

469
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: And that's another one that you just have to play

470
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: your walk over and over and over and over to

471
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 2: try and pick it up.

472
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 3: I'll never forget the first time walking it.

473
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 2: Just trying to take everything in in one trip around

474
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: is absolutely impossible.

475
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: You know, the first time I played it was US

476
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: Open week a few years ago, when it was that

477
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: shinnakak and I played it, and you know, my buddy,

478
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: a couple of my buddies were like, what did you think.

479
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, honestly, like I don't even know

480
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: what to think. There's so much going on. And I

481
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: was supposed to leave town on Friday morning and I

482
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: got invited back out for Friday and I originally turned

483
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: it down. This is like a thing I do. I

484
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I have to fly out. A couple

485
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: of my buddies got andy, if you don't change your flight,

486
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be speaking to you for a

487
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: couple of miles. But I'm so happy I moved by flight.

488
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: It was actually one of the few times I've ever

489
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: bought a refundable flight. And you know, just the second

490
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: time around, you pick up so much, and you know,

491
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: I got lucky to play a third time, and I

492
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: played that time with a Hickory driver and Ballota ball

493
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I was playing the member

494
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: tees and hitting from where you know, twelve to fifteen

495
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: handicaps hit from, and it was all of a sudden,

496
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: I'm wearing out long irons and I was like, holy cow,

497
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: this is a completely different golf course.

498
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I'm sure you know what's brilliant.

499
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: One of the brilliant things about the National that a

500
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 2: lot of people don't talk about is the way he

501
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: used the ground contours in affecting your t shots. You know,

502
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: there's a lot of you know, sixteen is the obvious example.

503
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: There's a lot of potential blindness if you drive in

504
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: the wrong spot. The ground contracts are just us so

505
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: beautifully there and so smartly that, yeah, I would I

506
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: would guess that with your twenty seventeen driver, you're hitting

507
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: it well past a lot of those things that really

508
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: mattered off the tee with your Hickory Club.

509
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: Well, that was the thing is I'd always heard about seven,

510
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: you know, like everybody, oh, seventeen's greatest hole, and for

511
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: the modern golf like pro or high level amateur, it's

512
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: it's not the greatest hole because the t shot, you

513
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: just hit it as hard as you can up the left,

514
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I have this Hickory. I

515
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: saw bunkers that I hadn't seen the first two times

516
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: I played, Like, all of a sudden, I'm looking. I'm like, holy, Like,

517
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: this is like a really hard decision. I don't know

518
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: what to do, you know, And it brought back so

519
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: much of the thought off the tee.

520
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 2: I felt like, that's cool that you did that, and yeah,

521
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 2: it's just such a fascinating place. Regardless of hop aar

522
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 2: you hit it, there's there was just a lot going

523
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: on there.

524
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: And that well, and that's kind of the thing I

525
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: think when you look at the what's going on in

526
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: golf is with with all the distance gains and and everything,

527
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: the best way to defend against an assault of wedges

528
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: is with greens with some slope in them. And it

529
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: seems like we're our society is kind of pushing away

530
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: from that.

531
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's ironic even well, especially at the elite level.

532
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 2: Do We had a chance to work with the tour

533
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: down in Houston last year and and they're very strict

534
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 2: about how much slope they'll accept in their pinnable parts

535
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: of the green.

536
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: You know.

537
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: They they're reluctant to go above two percent slope, which

538
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: you know, to us isn't steep at all. But the

539
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: best players are rarely playing whole locations that are located

540
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 2: in the spot where if you miss the green to

541
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 2: one side or the other, the green's racing away from

542
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: you faster than you'd like it to be and to

543
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 2: make it difficult to stop a ball, you know. And

544
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: and when you put whole locations in flat positions where

545
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: you miss, matters a lot less. And it's ironic that

546
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: that those setting up courses for the best players in

547
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: the world are protecting them from that sort of thing.

548
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 3: You know.

549
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 2: It's it's something that a lot of golfers have to

550
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: deal with every day at their clubs or at the

551
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: courses they play often.

552
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: But the best.

553
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: Players in the world, apart from you know, Augusta and

554
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: you know, if the US Open is at Shinnacock or

555
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: Oakmont or a handful of places.

556
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: Or the Open Championship. You know, the best.

557
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: Players in the world are rarely encountering whole locations and

558
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 2: steep spots where you can't miss the wrong side, you know,

559
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: and it's a shame. It'd be the game's a lot

560
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: more interesting when missing to the right of the green

561
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: and the green, you know, the green sloping away from

562
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: you over there means something and those guys don't run

563
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: into that that often, and they've got they've got the

564
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: game to deal with that, you know, and it would

565
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: be fun to watch him deal with those circumstances and

566
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: deal with a different set of challenges than they're they're

567
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: typically faced with.

568
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: And that was one of the most amazing things watching

569
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: UH Royal Melbourne. It was like evident from the very

570
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: first t shot of the first day that this was

571
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: going to be a little bit different. When when the

572
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: guys drove it up near the first screen on the

573
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: composite course, Yeah.

574
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: What a great hole to start with. You know, it

575
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: might be my favorite hole in golf course, one of

576
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: my favorites in the world. It's such a brilliant little

577
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: hole and where you landed matter, I mean, Richard forsythe

578
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: is an amazing greenkeeper, and you know, he does a

579
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: brilliant job with that golf course from day to day,

580
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: and the way it was set up for the tournament

581
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: was just perfect. But it seemed to take the Americans

582
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: a couple of days to figure out where they needed

583
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: to miss and that that placing your ball actually matters

584
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: there because the ground is so firm, the rings are fast,

585
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of slope in them. They took

586
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: them a few days to get the hang of it,

587
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: I think, and that was reflected by the results.

588
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: It totally. It was you could see it happening as

589
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: like day by day the America, like you know, the

590
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: first day Internationals really took it to them, and just

591
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: day by day it seemed like the Americans were just

592
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: figuring it out a little bit more each day.

593
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: It sure felt that way.

594
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if it was coincidence or if

595
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: that was reality, but there was one American that had

596
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: to figure it out from the get go, and you know,

597
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: he's the best player in the last four decades. And

598
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing. As a golf viewer, which

599
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: I frankly I don't watch the tour.

600
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: Much these days anymore.

601
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: But that's the kind of thing that we're losing out

602
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: on the spectators, you know, watching great players face challenges

603
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: like that where they have to think and they have

604
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: to position their ball, and they have to work their

605
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: way around the golf course and think the way around

606
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: the golf course as opposed to just smashing as far

607
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: as they can and hitting short irons.

608
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 3: In you know, the I miss.

609
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: You know, I've been watching a bunch of the old

610
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: Shells Wonderful World of Golf matches that have been put

611
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: up on YouTube somewhat recently, and you can't watch one

612
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: of those matches without somebody hitting a long iron or

613
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: fairwy wood into part fours. You know, when's the last

614
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: time you saw that on TV in America? It just

615
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: doesn't happen anymore. And it was such a different skill

616
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: set that the players needed to have with them and

617
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: that we got to watch as spectators. And it's unfortunate that,

618
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: you know, Brooks, Koepka and Tiger Woods, Dustin Johnson and

619
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: it can hit amazing golf shots.

620
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: They're just not asked to do it that often, and

621
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 3: that's unfortunate.

622
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things is one of the

623
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: most memorable shots that I can think of in the

624
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: last decade was at Bellery. Brooks Kopka hit you know,

625
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: it's like a two hundred was it sixteen or seventeen?

626
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: The part three, it's like two thirty forty. He had

627
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: a four irons, just flagged it and it was just

628
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: it's amazing. And that was the difference in the championship,

629
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, is this long iron play and you know,

630
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: nobody else hit as great of a shot as Brooks did,

631
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: and it was like, yeah, this is the guy that

632
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: should win.

633
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: You know.

634
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: It was that Donald Ross book. Golf has never failed me.

635
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: I'll never forget reading the quotes. You know, long irons

636
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: is the true like separator of good and great players.

637
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: And I think that obviously over the years, You've worked

638
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: on a ton of great courses from you know, and

639
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: you've built a lot of new golf courses with Tom

640
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: and also on your own. How I'm curious how your

641
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: thoughts and beliefs in golf architecture have evolved since you know,

642
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: you're young, and.

643
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 3: I think they're always evolving.

644
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: You know, it's hard to think back and put myself

645
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: back in my own head twenty years ago. But you know,

646
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: I think when you're starting out, when you're exposed to architecture,

647
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: you're attracted to the books you read. You know, you

648
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: look at Thomas's book and they're all the cool diagrams

649
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: of alternate root holes, and you get a pretty quick

650
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: feel for two dimensional strategy. And those things look really

651
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: neat on paper, and you know, it's a little harder

652
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: to execute in the field. You know, the alternate roots

653
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: don't always work as well as they do in drawings,

654
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: and and what separates one root from another doesn't really

655
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: work as well in drawings. And I think the thing

656
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: I've really learned over the years, certainly with the help

657
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: of Tom and my co workers, is that just building

658
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: interesting contour creates good golf. You know, you don't necessarily

659
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: have to build strategy into a golf hole. You don't

660
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: have to define a way for players to play it.

661
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 2: Risk reward isn't always the most interesting sort of golf. Typically,

662
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: if you just build cool contour, especially around the greens,

663
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: then you've got good golf. And it can be that simple.

664
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: Hey, we didn't get through the five.

665
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I don't know how many I got to.

666
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: Well we'll go back. But keep talking about contour. It

667
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: just jump popped into my mind.

668
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: Well, the one place I'm gonna cheat on this one,

669
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: I'm gonna use a time machine and keep talking about contour,

670
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: but also including another golf course. I'm gonna go back

671
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: to nineteen thirty four to Augusta National and was first built.

672
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: You know, there were twentyunkers or so somewhere around there,

673
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 2: twenty two bunkers, nothing but short grass, you know, two

674
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: heights of cut probably, and it was all about contour

675
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: and short grass.

676
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: You know. The greens were.

677
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 2: Really wild and severe and had a bunch of interesting

678
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: whole locations, and the way you played the whole varied

679
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: from day to day, and the way you played the

680
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: whole very dramatically if you missed where you wanted to

681
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 2: hit your t shot like the old course. I mean,

682
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: it was very much inspired by the old course. And

683
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: a lot of the holes even are almost templates of

684
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: holes from Saint Andrews and other places. But you know,

685
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: that was one of the best examples of how contour

686
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 2: is the most important and interesting part of the game.

687
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 2: And it didn't need many bunkers whatsoever to make it interesting.

688
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: It didn't need rough It was miles wide. But you know,

689
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 2: the contour around the greens matter, and the contrary and

690
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: the fairways matter. You know, if you if your ball

691
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: got off line, it would take a slope in the

692
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: fairway and just keep running into worse trouble. And you

693
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: know what they've done now, and what a lot of

694
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: courses do by narrowing things up is you keep players

695
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: closer to the center of the hole and don't let

696
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 2: balls run into trouble.

697
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 3: Marian's a great example of that.

698
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of side slope in Marion

699
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: and especially across the road, and when they narrow the

700
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 2: fairways up for the US Open, that just kept more

701
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: players closer to the center of the hole.

702
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: And if you mowed that entire.

703
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 2: Golf course short from wall to wall, I think it

704
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: would be a harder golf course because balls would roll

705
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: into places that you don't want to be. But the

706
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: rough keeps you closer to work, keeps you closer to

707
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 2: the ideal lining into those greens.

708
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 3: And Augusta was very much that way too before they

709
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 3: added the rough.

710
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's any examples as Augusta exists today,

711
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: really good examples of contour that you're talking about.

712
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: You know, I touched on that with the National. National

713
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: also has three hundred bunkers, whatever they have. There are places,

714
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: and there aren't many places that have twenty or fewer

715
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: bunkers these days, and a Memorial Park is one of those.

716
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: But it doesn't nearly have the fair way contraur that

717
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: Augusta has.

718
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of something off the top of

719
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 3: my head.

720
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: That's that level of simplicity.

721
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: Old Town would jump to my mind.

722
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I haven't seen that, even though

723
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: it's a couple hours from me, and that's been a quarantine.

724
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: Goal of mind is to try and get up there

725
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: and see it at some point. Yeah, I'm sure that's

726
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 2: a good example. That looks like a piece of property

727
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: similar to Augusta. Yeah, I mean Augusta's hilly. You know,

728
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: it's hilly, which obviously a lot of people have talked

729
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: about know about them. It's hard to think of another

730
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: great golf course of that much elevation change, and by

731
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: all accounts, old Town fits that bill.

732
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: What makes building a great golf course with that type

733
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: of elevation difficult?

734
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: That's a good question, you know, just attacking attacking the

735
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: side slopes in a variety of ways, I think, so

736
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: that you're not just going straight up and straight down

737
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 2: the hill. Downhill holes are fun, uphill holes not so much.

738
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: And avoiding holes like eighteen in Augusta, or you just

739
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: climbing straight up the hill to get back to the clubhouse.

740
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: There are many great holes in the world to do that,

741
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: So I guess clubhouse location is important part too. If

742
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: you put the clubhouse on top of the hill, you're

743
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: already stacking the deck against you a little bit. Olympic

744
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: Club is a pretty good example. You know, I can't

745
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: say I love that golf course, but I really admire

746
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: the way the golf course works around that hill. And

747
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: it's a steep slope mostly in one direction, especially on

748
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: the front nine. There's a lot of slope there. And

749
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 2: you know, he found a way to route along the

750
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: side slopes and in a way that really favors somebody

751
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: who can turn the ball into the slope, you know,

752
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 2: and then that's become a lost art certainly. You know,

753
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: the way good players hit the ball now they hit

754
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: it high enough for a role is less of an

755
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: issue than it used to be. But you know, when

756
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 2: I played it twenty years ago. You know, if you

757
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: hit a fade on one of the holes that was

758
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: sloping left or right and turning left or right, then

759
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: you are going to find yourself with a really long

760
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: second shot in and holes that tilt from side to

761
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: side then going straight up for straight down are really

762
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: interesting now.

763
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 3: But it's hard to know.

764
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: Every property is different. It's hard to generalize about those things.

765
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: But I think the more variety you can get in

766
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: holes to play along and across the slope is supposed

767
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: to up and down.

768
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: It kind of reminds what you're talking about. Reminds me

769
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: a little bit of what you guys did at Stoton

770
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: Bray with that knob on the back nine.

771
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

772
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you might be right, because he plays incorporate that, Yeah.

773
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, trying to incorporate that.

774
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: That feels as much like what Mackenzie did at Cypress

775
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: Point or the Valley Club, where there's a few prominent

776
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: features in the property and he jammed as many greens

777
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: and t's on him and as he could, you know,

778
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: and Royal Melbourne's got a bit of that.

779
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 3: You know.

780
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 2: Cypress is a great example that that kind of large

781
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: central dune in the middle of the property that three

782
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: plays up against you know, four ties are there, six

783
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: comes back to it, seven plays off it, eight plays

784
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: around it, nine plays onto it, you know, ten plays

785
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: off at eleven back to it, twelve plays off it.

786
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: He cramps so much golf into that one central feature

787
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: and he did the same thing he did too. Yeah,

788
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: it's brilliant. It's brilliant. I don't think we were channeling

789
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: mackenzie in any way, but but when you've got a

790
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: property with a big feature like that, you try to

791
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: bring it in play as much as you can.

792
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 3: And that was one of our goals at Stone Bray.

793
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, before we get to number five on your list,

794
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: talk about Stoton Bray and the experience. You know, you

795
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: have been a long type associate at Renaissance Golf and

796
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: and this was a project where you and and Brian

797
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: uh Slanik, Eric Iverson, Don Plaisk and and also Blake

798
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: helped out. Blake Conan helped out designed that golf course.

799
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: How was it like? What was it like? Was it

800
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: drastically a different experience than what it is like on

801
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: a on a Tom Doak designer or was it you know,

802
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,959
Speaker 1: was it did it feel pretty similar? Except you guys

803
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: were making the final call.

804
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a big accept.

805
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

806
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: Stulton Bray is a really special place to me, and

807
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: particularly right now, you know, when we're working for Tom.

808
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: You know, Tom's always a parachute in a certain way

809
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: that that when you've got a great editor coming behind you,

810
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 2: you can push things a little further, and you can

811
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 2: you can do dare to do something different and do

812
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: something wild, do something severe, knowing that if you pushed

813
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 2: it too far, you've got a brilliant editor coming to

814
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: make it right.

815
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: And and Tom gives us.

816
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 2: So much freedom to be creative, which makes it a

817
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: real pleasure to work for him. But it's also really

818
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: comforting knowing that if you do something stupid, he's going

819
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: to fix it.

820
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 3: And at Stulton.

821
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: Bray, you know I had Eric and Blake and see

822
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: Brian and Don as well. We all hit each other

823
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: to be that sounding boy, which was really important. But yeah,

824
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: you're you're accept.

825
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 3: It is a big deal.

826
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: And having to make the final call feels a lot

827
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: different than than just building freely and pushing pushing your

828
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: boundaries and trusting that Tom is going to make the

829
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: appropriate edits and and you know, and and which isn't

830
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: to say that Tom is merely an editor.

831
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 3: That's not the case at all.

832
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: But the way Tom allows us to work gives us

833
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: a lot of freedom to to experiment and mess around

834
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 2: and and eventually get it a really good final product.

835
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: So Stonebury was cool in that regard, and you know

836
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: it really had to learn to trust myself and my instincts,

837
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: and you know, I caught myself thinking a lot, boy,

838
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: what would Tom have to say about this? And that

839
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: you know, I've got enough experience with him now that

840
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: I can have some idea of how he might feel

841
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: about some of the things I build. But I certainly

842
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: lean down Eric quite a bit throughout that process and Blake,

843
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: both of which runs on site a lot. You know,

844
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 2: Brian is pretty well tied up at the Loop up

845
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: north and Don was pretty busy as well, but they've

846
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 2: both spent time there. But yeah, I definitely leaned on

847
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: on those guys a lot the things I was building

848
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: and had to sign off on, which we do with

849
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: Tom too. I mean, we're always on site a lot

850
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 2: together and we're constantly talking about what each other's building

851
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 2: and looking at everything that's being built. So it's it's

852
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 2: always been part of the process but when Tom's not

853
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 2: there as the final editor, it definitely has a different

854
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: way to it.

855
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: Talk about the collaborative aspect of that project is something

856
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm kind of fascinated with thinking about, is how, you know,

857
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: we don't see that. It almost was like a throwback

858
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: project where you guys, you know, you don't see as much.

859
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,760
Speaker 1: There's so much solo design ever since it became a profession.

860
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 1: It's solo design, and this is an example of really

861
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: a group of designers.

862
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that part for us isn't any different than

863
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: what we typically do. You know, there there are four

864
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: names on the listed after designer for that golf course.

865
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: But but everything we do is a collaboration to a

866
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: certain degree, you know, certainly on Tom's projects, he is

867
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: at the top of the at the top of the

868
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,439
Speaker 2: heap and making all the important decisions, and he's got

869
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: the you know, he handles the routing, you know, ninety

870
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: eight percent of the routing which we added to a

871
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: certain degree on the ground with him.

872
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 3: But he's responsible for a lot of that.

873
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: And in the case of Stoton Bray, it was a

874
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: collaboration between Brian, Eric Don and I and the routing

875
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 2: process we all had the maps, and we all messed

876
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: around with them and then shared them with one another

877
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: and and picked the bits and pieces of everyone that

878
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 2: worked best, and we kind of cobbled that together and

879
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: what we came up with at the end. So that

880
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: was the biggest difference, you know, that it was a

881
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: collaborative routing process, which is not really the same as

882
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: our projects at the top where he's responsible for most

883
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 2: of that.

884
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: How drastically different were where everybody's routing.

885
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: All over the map, all of the map, And I'm

886
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: sure we all came up with a handful of routings

887
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 2: we liked, but frankly, you know, the.

888
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: Key to.

889
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: Coming up with the routing we did was squeezing as

890
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,720
Speaker 2: many holes into that portion of property you talked about

891
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: the far end where the big hill is. Squeezing as

892
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: many holes as we could down there, number one, finding

893
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: interesting holes that take advantage of that cootal topography down there,

894
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: and then creating as much space as we could in

895
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 2: the flattered round to give those holes a little bit

896
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 2: of roomy that. You know, if we had to squeeze

897
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: one or two more holes up in the flats, things

898
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: would have felt pretty cramped.

899
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: So you know, I think it was Brian's loonic that.

900
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: Came up with the idea of running the twelfth hole

901
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: across the far end of the property, which was a

902
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 2: really big ridge before we started, and that took a

903
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: lot of earthwork to create that hole, but that allowed

904
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 2: us to get one, if not two, more holes in

905
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: that end of the property than most of the routings had,

906
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 2: thus freeing up more space to let the other holes

907
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 2: in the flatter part of the property breathe a little

908
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: bit more than otherwise. So that was the trick to

909
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 2: making it work. It was getting as many holes as

910
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: we could down with that in the property.

911
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a cool, cool golf core. It's really neat

912
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: greens and I love that back section of the property.

913
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: But the first few holes are great too. You get those.

914
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: You got a great mixture of greens out there. What

915
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: we were talking about with green contour applies definitely there

916
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: where there's a wide variety of greens and you know,

917
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: different slopes and different questions each of them.

918
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 3: Ask. I appreciate that.

919
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had fun building them, and I think we

920
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 2: all contributed ideas to that part of the process, and

921
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: John Scott did too.

922
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 3: You know, John was out there a lot.

923
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: With us, and great guy, really smart. He was very

924
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: involved in the process and even encouraged us to dial

925
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,720
Speaker 2: things up a little bit to make the greens more interesting,

926
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 2: more exciting. So it was a real pleasure working with

927
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: John and his family and being a part of what

928
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 2: they've created up there. It's a really special place.

929
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: So let's get to number five.

930
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 2: Number five, Okay, Yeah, I mentioned Garden City already. That

931
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 2: would be a place I would take people almost for

932
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 2: the opposite reasons of you know, it's kind of the

933
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 2: opposite of the National in some ways, in the opposite

934
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 2: of Augusta, and that there's very little ground contour there.

935
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 3: The greens are pretty.

936
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 2: Subtle, the hazards are totally different, but really unique in

937
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 2: American golf. And you know, Garden City reminds me a

938
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: lot of Walton Heath, which is one of my favorite

939
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 2: places in the UK.

940
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 3: And Woodhull SPA where we've.

941
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: Been really lucky to work. There's a simplicity about all

942
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: of those places. You know, the property of Woodhall Spot

943
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: is really quiet, very similar to Garden City, but there's

944
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: great texture there.

945
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 3: Walton Heath is similar.

946
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: You know that most of that property runs to the

947
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 2: road that separates the clubhouse from the golf course, and

948
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: the greens there are largely just laying on the ground.

949
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of contour in them. But so

950
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 2: many of those greens tilt subtly towards that road, and

951
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: that's rarely back to front when you're playing. The golf

952
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: holes and garden seats are the same way. There are

953
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 2: a lot of golf holes, you know, the property of

954
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: Garden City is pretty quiet, and a lot of the greens,

955
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: like the tenth and the fifteenth are just laying on

956
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 2: the ground, but the ground is falling it three four

957
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: or five percent to the side and to the back.

958
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 3: In some cases, that's a shot you don't see very often.

959
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 2: There's just a beautiful simplicity to approaching the hole on

960
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 2: you know, the tenth is one of my favorite holes.

961
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: You know, the green falls away left to right, front

962
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: to back, and you really have to think about where

963
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: you want to miss again, and and that's another hole

964
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 2: we're missing along. It's better than missing short. But that's

965
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 2: a really hard thing to get yourself to do, especially

966
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: when you can't quite see what's going on up there,

967
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, and you're not quite sure what's behind the green,

968
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's it's just a lot of fun to

969
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 2: play golf that way.

970
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,919
Speaker 1: And there's that deception aspect of it, and until you

971
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: know the hole, you don't know that the ball is

972
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: going to take a bigger bounce forward than you're used

973
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: to because it doesn't look like it.

974
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, And you've got you know, and a whole

975
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 3: like that too.

976
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 2: And there's Superintendent Mike McLevy does a fantastic job and

977
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: he's he has really firmed that place up and it's

978
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: playing better and better every year that he's there. You know,

979
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 2: as much as any golf course in America, the thirty

980
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: yards in front of some of those greens matters a

981
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: lot because that's where you need to land your ball

982
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: in some days. And he's done a beautiful job of

983
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,959
Speaker 2: tightening that up and firming it up. And you really

984
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 2: do have to think about the contour in front of

985
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 2: the greens, not just the putting surfaces themselves, but you've

986
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 2: got to think about what's going on short of the greens,

987
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 2: which is something you have.

988
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 3: To do in the UK all the time.

989
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: When it's windy and the ground is firm, and if

990
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 2: the winds at your back. You know, you can't fly

991
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 2: ball out of the green and expect it to stop.

992
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: So you've got to consider the contour in front of

993
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 2: the green and oftentimes hit a shot that takes advantage

994
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 2: of that contour and negotiates it somehow. And golf's a

995
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: lot more fun when when the balls on the ground

996
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: and rolling and you've got to you've got to think

997
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: through the contours over a much broader area than just

998
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: what's on the green itself.

999
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: Something that makes me that I love most about Garden

1000
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: City is that in a way, you know, the Augustus

1001
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: topography is just astounding and and same with National where

1002
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: you have this this amazing site. Is the thing that

1003
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: Garden City kind of screams to me is that, you know,

1004
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: great architecture is attainable almost anywhere.

1005
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 3: It is, Yeah, it is. There are a handful of

1006
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 3: places like that.

1007
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: Chicago melfb is another one for me that you know,

1008
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 2: people call that a flat site.

1009
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 3: It's not. It's not a bad site at all, but

1010
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 3: it you know.

1011
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 2: There is simplicity about it that most of the holes there,

1012
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: well maybe all the holes there, and none of them

1013
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 2: are great because of the topography, you know, and you

1014
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: could say it's the same about Garden City. It's just

1015
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 2: the architectures are really shines at places like that, and

1016
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: the architecture is really simple at Garden City, and it's

1017
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: a little more manufactured at Chicago. But nonetheless, you know,

1018
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 2: the things that are built in Chicago are built almost

1019
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 2: entirely for golf reasons as opposed to aesthetics or anything else.

1020
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 2: They just built cool features for golf and didn't mess

1021
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: with the rest of it.

1022
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is another perfect example, and I think Stote

1023
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: and Bray in a similar veins example of that, where

1024
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, you can have really good architecture on you know,

1025
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: not the best piece of land doesn't have to be

1026
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: sandy and dramatic.

1027
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 2: No, you're right, You're right, and we you know, I

1028
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 2: don't know that we would have moved a lot more

1029
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: earth if we'd had a bigger budget, but the budget

1030
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 2: was limited and we really had to focus on spending

1031
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 2: money wisely, and that included bunkers.

1032
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 3: I mean, there aren't many bunkers.

1033
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 2: Of Sto'te Bray either, and frankly I don't I can't

1034
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 2: think of anywhere where i'd add more, and probably a

1035
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: few I would take out at this point if anything,

1036
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: but yeah, it had to be Yeah, it had to

1037
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 2: be designed with budget in mind, both from construction and maintenance.

1038
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 2: And I think that that gave us a really good product.

1039
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: Uh and a project that has really kept my attention

1040
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: through the Chicago Winner and now through this virus that

1041
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: i've I constantly find myself seeking out photos of is uh.

1042
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: I hope I pronouncing it correct. I've seen the name

1043
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 1: so many times, larnek, Nope.

1044
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 3: You're close.

1045
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of different different attempts. Lanark Atlantic

1046
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 2: It's it's a Welsh word. Most people don't get it

1047
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: right the first time around, but it's Lanark.

1048
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: It's it's funny. Something the other Greeks can be emailed

1049
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: me years ago about it, and it's just amazing to

1050
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: see how it's coming. And something I wanted to ask

1051
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: you about is you know, the first thing that you

1052
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: notice is the striking style that you even Blake went

1053
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: with there, and I wanted to ask if that was,

1054
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, kind of an intentional move to you. It's

1055
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: very different from the in vogue, you know, rugged exposed

1056
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 1: look that we see all over the place in most

1057
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: new projects.

1058
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 2: It's a different look, certainly and it was intentional. You know,

1059
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: it evolved a little bit, and you know every project

1060
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: we do kind of goes that way.

1061
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 3: You take a few holes to sort out what the

1062
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 3: style is going to be.

1063
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 2: And but yeah, it was it was my intention to

1064
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: build some above ground features as opposed to building a

1065
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 2: bunch of bunkers. You know, it's fifteen Lantark is fifteen

1066
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: minutes from Maryon and surrounded by a ton of great golf.

1067
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 2: You know, Philadelphia is just loaded with great golf courses

1068
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 2: and a lot of the best stuff was done by

1069
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: Flynn and you know, you think about Marry and you

1070
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 2: think about the Flynn courses, and you think about the

1071
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 2: flash sand bunkers and the similar aesthetic and the club

1072
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 2: was has every step of the way put an extraordinary

1073
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 2: amount of trust in me and encouraged me to do

1074
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,479
Speaker 2: what I wanted to do and thought was best. They've

1075
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 2: been fantastic and we're one hundred percent behind trying something

1076
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 2: different that wouldn't feel like anything else in Philadelphia, and

1077
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: that was one of my goals, just to create, you know,

1078
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 2: to give it a different identity in a place that's

1079
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: choc a block with great golf. And we ran with that,

1080
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 2: and they've given us a lot of latitude to do

1081
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 2: some different stuff there, and I'm sure they scratched their

1082
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: heads a little bit when they would come out and

1083
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 2: see some of the things we built. We've experimented quite

1084
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 2: a bit there and built a lot of crap that

1085
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 2: the members saw overnight and freaked out and we wiped

1086
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 2: out the next day. But we're just trying a bunch

1087
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 2: of different things and stumbling on some things that we

1088
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 2: think are really cool, and hopefully a bunch of stuff

1089
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 2: that people haven't seen before in that area.

1090
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I love that that idea because I feel

1091
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: like most a lot of times what happens is in

1092
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: that situation as well, this is what the clubs around

1093
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: here do, so we should probably do that too, And

1094
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: it becomes almost a group think versus the idea of

1095
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: creating your own unique identity as a golf course.

1096
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think you're right. Atlantic is

1097
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 2: a really different project for me. You know, all of

1098
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: my other consulting clients are you know, have clubs of

1099
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 2: courses that were built by Travis or Ross or Banks,

1100
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 2: great architects, and they're really really good golf courses, and

1101
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 2: there are important examples of that architect's work, and I

1102
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: feel like restoring them is the best and only option.

1103
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 3: And I really really strict about that. You know. I

1104
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 3: don't like taking liberties if I say I'm restoring something.

1105
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: And I don't tend to take work unless the club

1106
00:57:58,160 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 2: is behind a pure restoration.

1107
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 3: So most of the work I've.

1108
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 2: Done in places like Hollywood or Round Hill or the

1109
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 2: places i'm working now, our strict restoration. I want to

1110
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 2: put back with what the old guys did. But Landark

1111
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 2: is a different thing.

1112
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 3: You know.

1113
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time researching the design history

1114
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 2: of the place, and that golf course evolved a lot

1115
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 2: over the years from the very beginning at various times.

1116
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 2: It's been twenty seven holes, you know it started. You know,

1117
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 2: it's divided by a road, and you know, the chunks

1118
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 2: of property the club owned were developed at different times,

1119
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 2: and what they owned now is different what they owned

1120
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 2: when they began. So it's evolved a lot over the years,

1121
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 2: and the more I studied it, I didn't really feel

1122
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 2: like there was much Number one that we could put back,

1123
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 2: you know what, There wasn't anything left from the original

1124
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 2: Alex Finlay course that we could restore because it's been

1125
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: changed so much and the property itself had changed, But

1126
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 2: there also wasn't a whole lot when I looked at

1127
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 2: the old area, old and the old photos, you know,

1128
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,439
Speaker 2: the all right number of old fotes in the place.

1129
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 2: They hosted the PGA Championship, the first PGA Championship that

1130
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 2: was played at stroke Play.

1131
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 3: It was Atlantic in the fifties.

1132
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 2: So we've got a bunch of bold photos, but I

1133
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 2: just you know, there was nothing there that screen. Boy,

1134
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 2: we really need to put that back. That was really cool,

1135
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 2: and the club was okay with that, you know. So

1136
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 2: this was really the first opportunity I've had to do

1137
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: something drastically different, really kind of change the character of

1138
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 2: a golf course without going back to something that was there.

1139
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 3: One hundred years ago. And that's been really fun. You know.

1140
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 2: Restoring is great for a wide variety of reasons, but

1141
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 2: having the freedom to do something totally different Atlantic has

1142
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 2: been a lot of fun for us.

1143
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 3: And Blake's been great too.

1144
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 2: I mean that he's such a creative guy, and we've

1145
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 2: just had a lot of fun doing wacky stuff out

1146
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 2: there and trying to trying to make one another say wow,

1147
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's It's been a really fun process.

1148
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 2: And Brendan Burn is the superintendent as well as a

1149
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 2: general manager, and he's been a fantastic client, as has

1150
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 2: the club, so we've had a great time there.

1151
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I highly recommend people going checking out his photos

1152
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter. He posts them all the time and it's

1153
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: like I'm glued to him. Speaking of the above ground features,

1154
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: how does that gets you know, most golfers are accustomed

1155
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: to the below ground the idea of bunkers, you know,

1156
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: where features go down, what type different things does the

1157
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: above ground feature impact in terms of architecture, the play

1158
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: and just you know, on a broader scale, your your

1159
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: scale that when you're working with the above ground features.

1160
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think the you know, going back

1161
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 2: to what we talked about earlier with Brooks and Memorial Park,

1162
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: bunkers different players differently, obviously, and the best players at

1163
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 2: Land or the most clubs don't really struggle with a

1164
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 2: typical green side bunker shot, whereas a lot of the

1165
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: handicapped players, beginners, older players, that's a really hard shot

1166
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 2: for them. And I think building a burm or a

1167
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 2: mound or something above ground tends to have a less

1168
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 2: severe penalty for handicapped players. And we don't have a

1169
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: ton of green side bunkers Atlantic right now, and the ones.

1170
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 3: We built are pretty severe. There are a few that

1171
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 3: you should definitely avoid at all costs.

1172
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: There's a lot of room to play around those, but

1173
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 2: you don't want to miss right of the first green,

1174
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 2: for example, or long.

1175
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 3: On the eighth.

1176
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 2: But I think those are going to be really difficult

1177
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 2: shots for everybody, not just handicapped players. But we put

1178
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 2: a lot more short short grass around some of the greens,

1179
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 2: but just rough around a lot of the greens with

1180
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 2: some funky, interesting contours can get a weird lie. And

1181
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 2: in the fairways too. We built some mounding and some

1182
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 2: other things instead of bunkers that will offer a different

1183
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 2: type of recovery and a different degree of penalty.

1184
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 3: Without beating up the handicap player too much. I hope.

1185
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: I'd agree with I think they could. Uneven lies for

1186
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: a good player from rough are going to be a

1187
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: lot more difficult than a very predictable bunker shot yep.

1188
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: And they are easier for the regular golfer from Yeah,

1189
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: my experience cattying it was always easier when somebody was

1190
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 1: in the rough chipping, you know.

1191
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 2: I agree, And you know, when we started at Landward,

1192
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 2: I think I think there were like fifteen of the

1193
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 2: greens fourteen fifteen, sixteen, and the greens were kind of

1194
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 2: bunker front right front left almost every hole.

1195
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 3: So you know, again the.

1196
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 2: Average player never misses past the hole they're going to

1197
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 2: miss right or left, and nine times out of ten

1198
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 2: you had been recovering from a bunker, and we tried

1199
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: to undo that completely. You know, there are holes where

1200
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 2: you there's a bunker left or a bunker right or neither.

1201
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 2: But I don't know that we have any holes left

1202
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 2: where there's bunker's right and left.

1203
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 1: Is it? You know, for the last few years I

1204
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: noticed things with just Instagram, and I feel like the

1205
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 1: fascination with people for it, with Seth Rayner, you know, Langford, Moreau,

1206
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 1: the and then you know that that more trench style

1207
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: bunker and more geometric design features. It's at like a

1208
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: fever pitch, but it's I've always it's been interesting because

1209
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: from a new design and you know, renovation standpoint. Until

1210
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: you guys were doing this, I hadn't really seen any

1211
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 1: of it in America. Despite like I can tell from

1212
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: just a photo standpoint that that's a popular people. It's

1213
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: it appeals to people's eye. Do you think that it

1214
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: could become kind of a new trend in design going

1215
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: that more that way from the exposed sand.

1216
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe?

1217
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 2: You know, I can't say that we were channeling the

1218
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 2: Rain or Langford at Landard necessarily, you know, I was

1219
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 2: thinking more of places like.

1220
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 3: Hunter Combe and Myopia and Brookline. But yeah, I think.

1221
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 2: I think there may be a bit of fatigue from

1222
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 2: jagged edge, flashy bunkers. You know, it's ironic that, you know,

1223
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 2: the reason we're working at Lantic right now is because

1224
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 2: Brendan at Lanark loved our work at Hollywood, where they

1225
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 2: have one hundred and eighty bunkers of every every shape

1226
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 2: and size, and and at Lant we're doing almost the opposite.

1227
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 2: But I do think that there's there's a growing reaction

1228
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 2: to a lot of what's been built over the past

1229
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 2: decade or two.

1230
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 3: And and you know.

1231
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 2: The blowout style bunker is beautiful, especially in a place

1232
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 2: where it fits naturally. You know, the sand Hills probably

1233
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 2: started that trend. And you know, if you look around

1234
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 2: the golf course at the sand Hills, you see blowouts

1235
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 2: out in the distance on land that's been grazed for

1236
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 2: hundreds of years, and nobody's ever stuck a shovel in

1237
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 2: the ground to build them.

1238
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 3: In places like Pacific Dues in barn Google, and.

1239
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 2: You know, anywhere somebody's working near the ocean and sand,

1240
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 2: you're going to have blowout bunkers, and.

1241
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 3: And it fits those locations.

1242
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 2: But importing that onto a bunch of inland sites in Illinois,

1243
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 2: Wisconsin or every state in the Union at this point

1244
01:05:58,120 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 2: it probably gets little anonymous, and people might be able

1245
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 2: the idea of something that looks a little bit different

1246
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 2: that the new south Course at Arkadia Bluffs is certainly

1247
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 2: a rest of that of that theory of yours. And

1248
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 2: I played that last time. I really enjoyed.

1249
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 3: It, not necessarily because of the aesthetic. You know.

1250
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 2: That's the funny thing to me about, you know, the

1251
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 2: kind of the current infatuation with Rayner and McDonald is

1252
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 2: that everyone's focused on the look of their work and

1253
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 2: the templates as opposed to just the really cool, interesting

1254
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 2: gulf that they created.

1255
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's much more than an aesthetic. And

1256
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 3: and I think people, you know, I think that's.

1257
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 2: The current bunker craze or the kind of the phase

1258
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: removement of the jagged edge blowouts. You know, when minimalism

1259
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:53,560
Speaker 2: became a really popular thing, it quickly became identified with

1260
01:06:53,640 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 2: an esthetic and and people associated that bunker look with minimalism,

1261
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 2: so that, oh, if we build jagged, natural looking bunkers,

1262
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 2: we're minimalist too, And you know, completely missing the greater

1263
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 2: point that minimalism is as a philosophy or an approach

1264
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 2: to construction and design.

1265
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 3: It has nothing to do with aesthetics.

1266
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 2: And you know, some of the places where minimalism was

1267
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 2: first and most notably practiced happened to have that aesthetic.

1268
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 2: But the aesthetic doesn't make the doesn't make something minimalist.

1269
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 2: You know, it's a philosophy of design and construction more

1270
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 2: than anything.

1271
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: The ironic thing, too, is from a maintenance standpoint, those

1272
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 1: above ground features that you're building at atlant Eric are

1273
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: more minimal in terms of maintenance than a bunker.

1274
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 3: We'll see.

1275
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 2: I look forward to hearing Brennan's thoughts on that, but

1276
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: I think I think they should be. There's certainly a

1277
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 2: lot cheaper to build.

1278
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 3: You know. Part of what.

1279
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 2: Initiated the work we did there, or the style of

1280
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 2: work we did there, was the fact that you know,

1281
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 2: construction always generates a lot of stuff you need to

1282
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 2: get rid of, whether it's old greensmans or drain tile

1283
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:19,680
Speaker 2: or sod. You know, there's a lot of sod that

1284
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 2: get stripped when you're doing work, and you got to

1285
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 2: put that somewhere. And they don't have a lot of space.

1286
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 2: It's a really compact property. They don't have space to

1287
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:28,640
Speaker 2: store any of that stuff. They don't have a big

1288
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 2: dump to lose it in, and they certainly didn't want

1289
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 2: to pay to haul it all off property, so we

1290
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 2: had to lose it somewhere. But you don't want to

1291
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 2: bury much bold sod and moulins and let that stuff

1292
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,720
Speaker 2: decompose and see what it turns into. So we dug

1293
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 2: berry pits around the property and buried all the sod

1294
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 2: in there. But that generated a lot of material that

1295
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 2: we had to.

1296
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 3: Do something with.

1297
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 2: And if we were going to dig bunkers, we were

1298
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 2: just going to generate more material and we'd have to lose.

1299
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 2: So instead of building more bunkers, we turned all the

1300
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 2: material into the above ground stuff that we created.

1301
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 3: So there was definitely an economy of construction building those things.

1302
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 2: We were losing material that we had to lose somewhere

1303
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 2: and we got to bury a bunch of stuff, so

1304
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: particularly that you know, would have cost a lot of

1305
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 2: money to haul off site.

1306
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 1: In a way, it has been a hale. It wasn't

1307
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: as the animalist construction.

1308
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you know there's no associated cost for

1309
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 2: bunker liners and bunker sand and the things that go

1310
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 2: with building modern bunkers now, which is getting you know,

1311
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 2: that is getting extraordinarily expensive, especially in that part of

1312
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,839
Speaker 2: the country. You know, things are really expensive in the Northeast.

1313
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 2: Shipping costs, materials costs, bunkers are getting really expensive, and

1314
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:44,600
Speaker 2: the labor to maintain them is really expensive. But the

1315
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 2: construction costs, I'm sure what we did was a lot

1316
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 2: less expensive than building a bunch of bunkers.

1317
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the way the old guys did you know.

1318
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 3: That's that's one.

1319
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 2: Of the things that we're building some we're restoring some

1320
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 2: mounting in North Jersey now too. And again the construction process.

1321
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 2: And they built that calf course. It's a it's a

1322
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 2: rocky place and they generated rocks for years there. For

1323
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,639
Speaker 2: the first five years or so of the golf course's existence,

1324
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 2: members carried a little bag with them as they played golf,

1325
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 2: and they would pick up rocks in the fairways as

1326
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 2: they played and dump them in piles adjacent to the fairways.

1327
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 2: That went on for years, So you know, the rocks

1328
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 2: that were generated in the construction process and the rocks

1329
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 2: that the members were picking up turned into features on

1330
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 2: the golf course and instead of building a bunch of

1331
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 2: bunkers and rock Travis hues mallins instead.

1332
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:32,599
Speaker 1: How neat is that?

1333
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 3: That's pretty cool? That's pretty cool.

1334
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 1: I mean in evolving, you know, like the more the

1335
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: more years up, and the more mounds and more rock

1336
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 1: mounds and more. Yeah, it's just kind of a neat

1337
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 1: little thing.

1338
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, tells me how crazy golfers were back in the day,

1339
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 2: how badly they wanted a golf course and they were

1340
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 2: willing to pick up rocks for years.

1341
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 3: I'm not sure many people would go for that today.

1342
01:10:55,479 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 1: It's almost more more adventurous, right, absolutely. So the thing

1343
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 1: you said about Rayner, you play out of James Hall,

1344
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,960
Speaker 1: and that strikes me as a perfect example where people

1345
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: are fascinated with the templates and everything. But you know,

1346
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: when you the most the kind of crescendo of that

1347
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 1: golf course where it hits the great Land is filled

1348
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,800
Speaker 1: with very few templates. You know, on that eleven through

1349
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: fifteen stretch of holes, you know, you start to hit

1350
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: the you know, you kind of are getting to the

1351
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 1: meat of the guitar solo if you want to, compared

1352
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 1: to like a great rock song, and you're hitting these

1353
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 1: holes and very few of them are are status quo templates.

1354
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:47,559
Speaker 1: Obviously you have the Knoll, but and the Eden Hole

1355
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: in there, but it you know, the ground is more

1356
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 1: of the star.

1357
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:53,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny.

1358
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 2: I mean eleven is the Maiden and that you mentioned

1359
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 2: fourteen is the knoll, but you know the fourteenth and ya,

1360
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 2: this doesn't look much like the knoll at Piping Rock

1361
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 2: or Scott's Craig. You know, it just it's just they

1362
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 2: tacked that label on because the green is jacked up

1363
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 2: in the air. But you know, from t to green,

1364
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 2: it doesn't really resemble many other Knowle holes. And you

1365
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 2: could say the same for the Maiden hole, which is

1366
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 2: a great hole.

1367
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:22,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that was Rainer's to me, that.

1368
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 2: Was his most amable quality was that dude could route

1369
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 2: of golf course. You know, he found the places for

1370
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 2: his templates, and which is a totally different routing process,

1371
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 2: I think than just trying to find the best golf

1372
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 2: holes on a property. When you're looking for fifteen or

1373
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 2: eighteen or twenty two template holes on a property, it's

1374
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 2: a different mindset than just laying something out with no

1375
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 2: preconceived ideas.

1376
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 3: But he did it really really well.

1377
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 2: You know, he found his golf goals on his properties

1378
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 2: in a way that they just lay beautifully.

1379
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 3: On the ground.

1380
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 2: And obviously he did a bunch of construction work around

1381
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,439
Speaker 2: his green side, but Tea de Green his courses worked

1382
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 2: really well and he didn't have to do a lot

1383
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:04,720
Speaker 2: to build that.

1384
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh so, you know, given the circumstances, and

1385
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: you're the first architect on that I've talked to since

1386
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 1: this you know, virus and pandemic has kind of broken

1387
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: out in America, and I'm curious, how has your business

1388
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,599
Speaker 1: yet or is it to be determined, been impacted by

1389
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 1: and by the coronavirus.

1390
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 3: Oh boy, that's.

1391
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 2: Way above my pay grade to try and analyze. I'm

1392
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:37,639
Speaker 2: sure it'll be impacted.

1393
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 3: You know. Right now, we've got a lot of things

1394
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 3: that are temporarily temporarily on.

1395
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: Hold from a you know, all things standpoint. Have you

1396
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 1: seen anything with clubs.

1397
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 2: Everyone's just leary right now. You know, there's so much

1398
01:13:55,040 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 2: uncertainty that I think everyone is. Everyone is is hesitant

1399
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 2: to move forward before we know where we are, number one,

1400
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 2: and know where we're going. And you know, I feel

1401
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 2: the same way personally. It's you know, travel is a

1402
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 2: big part of our job, and I don't see myself

1403
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 2: getting on an airplane anytime soon. I love a road trip.

1404
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 2: I'm happy to drive anywhere in the country for work,

1405
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 2: but I don't think I'm getting on an airplane. And

1406
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 2: I suspect a lot of golfers probably feel the same way.

1407
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:31,519
Speaker 2: I don't know how that impacts places like band in

1408
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:38,679
Speaker 2: or cabin cliffs or streams song, but I think, you know,

1409
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 2: there's certainly a massive loss of revenue in the short

1410
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 2: term that impacts the way golf courses are being maintained

1411
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 2: right now and are likely to be maintained for the

1412
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 2: foreseeable future.

1413
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 3: And maybe that's a good thing.

1414
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 2: Maybe we can stop wasting money on a lot of

1415
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 2: the things that really aren't employ and the golf course

1416
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 2: maintenance and focus on the things that are and and

1417
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 2: maybe that'll lead to more affordable maintenance. Therefore more affordable golf.

1418
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 2: You know, the standard of maintenance has gotten so high

1419
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 2: in this country to its own detriment. Really, I mean,

1420
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 2: there is certainly a point of diminishing returns, and I

1421
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 2: think a lot of clubs went beyond that years ago.

1422
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 2: And you know that affects construction design too. You know,

1423
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 2: a lot of the things are being built into golf

1424
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 2: courses now are number one, really expensive to install and

1425
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 2: number two really expensive to maintain. And the more things

1426
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 2: you put underneath a USGA green, the more things there

1427
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,679
Speaker 2: are that can break. And you know that just means

1428
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:49,599
Speaker 2: you're gonna have to dig those greens out more often

1429
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 2: going forward until you stop putting stuff under the greens.

1430
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 3: That can break. So I hope there's a.

1431
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,360
Speaker 2: Little bit of a a little bit of an effect

1432
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:06,280
Speaker 2: and raining in some of the excesses if we've taken

1433
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 2: to accept as now standard equipment, standard procedure.

1434
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 3: But I don't know.

1435
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 2: I think people in general, not just golfers, tend to

1436
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 2: forget quickly, and I think as soon as golfers will

1437
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 2: get back on their golf courses, they'll they'll quickly start

1438
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 2: looking at the things that superintendent has been doing for

1439
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 2: the past three months.

1440
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 3: As opposed to just being happy they're back outside again.

1441
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:33,639
Speaker 3: But hopefully that's not the case.

1442
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm hoping for like a no rake movement from this.

1443
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 3: That would be great. That would be great.

1444
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, if you could trust every golfer just to

1445
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 2: smooth out their tracks with their foot and leave about

1446
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 2: the left, that would be great.

1447
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 1: Good talking about that possibly being a PGA tour thing,

1448
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 1: no rakes, I like it. How would you compare the

1449
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: feel of this with the eight financial crash from like

1450
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,760
Speaker 1: just a purely a business side of things, like the

1451
01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 1: way you feel with you know, golf courses on a

1452
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 1: business front. Oh, sorry, this is a question.

1453
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beyond my pay grade. Again, you know, I

1454
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 2: have a hard time comparing.

1455
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 3: I mean this.

1456
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:34,600
Speaker 2: That was that was scary to me in a certain way,

1457
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 2: that revolved almost entirely round finances, you know, and this

1458
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 2: is something completely different. You know, this is something completely different,

1459
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 2: and it has massive financial impacts obviously, but first and

1460
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 2: foremost it's about people's health and and.

1461
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:58,959
Speaker 3: I like to think that golf can be an important

1462
01:17:59,080 --> 01:17:59,680
Speaker 3: part of.

1463
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 2: Getting people back outdoors, getting people back socializing safely. I

1464
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 2: think golf has always had done a poor job of

1465
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 2: emphasizing the health benefits of getting outside and taking a

1466
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 2: walk for four hours.

1467
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:20,160
Speaker 3: And you know, I've seen a.

1468
01:18:20,080 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 2: Few clubs that have reopened lately that are apologizing for

1469
01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:27,639
Speaker 2: the lack of carts and and I wish they would

1470
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 2: take a different stance and celebrate it. I'd love to

1471
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 2: see more people walking as a result of this. But

1472
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,720
Speaker 2: you know, this is this is a massive health crisis

1473
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:42,960
Speaker 2: first and foremost. And I don't know how you compare

1474
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 2: that to a strictly financial crisis like we had in

1475
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight.

1476
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 3: Strictly is the wrong word.

1477
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:52,599
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously any financial crisis has massive associated health

1478
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 2: impacts as well.

1479
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a this is a health a massive

1480
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:02,560
Speaker 1: health crisis that is having massive financial implications.

1481
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I think that two thousand probably the other way.

1482
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree with that. So you know, we uh,

1483
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:14,280
Speaker 1: before we get you out of here, it'd be remiss

1484
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,120
Speaker 1: to you know, I think we the future, we'd hopefully

1485
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 1: do a Langord Bureau pod with a few junkies, you know,

1486
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:25,840
Speaker 1: But I gotta I gotta ask you, you know, in

1487
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:28,760
Speaker 1: terms of from your standpoint, you grew up pretty close

1488
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:31,800
Speaker 1: to Lastonia, and I remember you saying when we were

1489
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:35,640
Speaker 1: on when we recorded Near bel Air that uh, you know,

1490
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:38,000
Speaker 1: that was kind of one of your first Aha moments

1491
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 1: in terms of lang for Moreau, you know, what, what

1492
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:47,640
Speaker 1: aspects of their architecture do you admire the most?

1493
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 3: They were nuts, They were crazy. The scale of their features,

1494
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:55,480
Speaker 3: Like if I go to the Sonia now or Culver.

1495
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:00,920
Speaker 2: You know, Harrison Hills, the scale the features those guys

1496
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:03,600
Speaker 2: built with the equipment they had back then, it was insane.

1497
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:05,600
Speaker 3: You know, it's it.

1498
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 2: They moved a lot of material and the boldness of

1499
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 2: the stuff they built it is pretty remarkable. You know,

1500
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,040
Speaker 2: Pete Dye would be the one guy who's probably approached

1501
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 2: that level of boldness since. But the depths of the

1502
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:25,439
Speaker 2: bunkers and the size of the bunkers and the movement

1503
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:31,640
Speaker 2: in the greens is just big and wild fun and

1504
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:35,080
Speaker 2: I love, you know, their best courses. Again, going back

1505
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:37,720
Speaker 2: to where we started to have brilliant green complexes.

1506
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 3: You go to a place like.

1507
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 2: Kanka ki Elks, some fantastic greens there, and you know,

1508
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:45,879
Speaker 2: that's what I'd love to see restored.

1509
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 3: You know that.

1510
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 2: Unfortunately Langford's courses have suffered so much neglect over the years,

1511
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:52,880
Speaker 2: and in a lot of cases that's helped preserve them.

1512
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 2: But there there's still kind of a shell of what

1513
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 2: they once were, which makes places like the Sonia all

1514
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 2: the more special that it's presented really really well. Yeah,

1515
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:07,840
Speaker 2: there's just a kind of a daring and a boldness

1516
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 2: to what they did that it's just it's fun golf,

1517
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:14,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's fun golf.

1518
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 1: A buddy was doubted Harrison Hills the other day. He

1519
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:19,800
Speaker 1: sent me some picture. There's they've done a ton of

1520
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 1: tree removal.

1521
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:23,200
Speaker 3: Oh that's good to hear.

1522
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:26,960
Speaker 1: Like, you know, the was it the fourteenth hole, the

1523
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:29,759
Speaker 1: one that goes down in the bottom before the short

1524
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,360
Speaker 1: part four up that had that green that had all

1525
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: the trees on it. All the trees are off it nice.

1526
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:36,280
Speaker 3: That's a beautiful green.

1527
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:40,760
Speaker 1: Oh my god that if you restored that green, yep,

1528
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:41,719
Speaker 1: that would.

1529
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:45,960
Speaker 3: Be that's a great set of greens. Yeah. I love

1530
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:46,599
Speaker 3: seeing this stuff.

1531
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 2: I wish there was more of it around, you know,

1532
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:50,839
Speaker 2: it's certainly there's none of my part.

1533
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 3: Of the country.

1534
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's the thing is spent a I

1535
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 1: love going down to Kankakee or up to Valley. It's

1536
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 1: it's sad where they're at but still it's refreshing that

1537
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, so little of it's changed that it could

1538
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:12,280
Speaker 1: you know, when if some if the right thing came up,

1539
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:15,160
Speaker 1: they could be brushed up and every bay'd be like,

1540
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:17,920
Speaker 1: whoa wait, this place was just sitting here.

1541
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a blessing. They haven't had the money over

1542
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,000
Speaker 2: the last hundred years to screw them up. You know,

1543
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 2: I'd much rather have them in this day right now

1544
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:28,960
Speaker 2: than humming along financially with a bunch of extra cash

1545
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:31,519
Speaker 2: in the bank. That that's something got the wrong idea with.

1546
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, Spring Valley's another one. I tend to forget

1547
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:38,360
Speaker 2: about that place, but it's there's a lot of cool

1548
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 2: stuff there.

1549
01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you got that. It's got for being forty five

1550
01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:46,519
Speaker 1: minutes from Chicago. It's got topography you see nowhere else

1551
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 1: in Chicago.

1552
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:51,679
Speaker 3: No, it's it's cool. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah. Yeah,

1553
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 3: there's a lot of good golf there.

1554
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, hey, I appreciate the time. You're you're a

1555
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:02,120
Speaker 1: new new favorite follow on Twitter. You've you've delve into

1556
01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 1: the platform and just become become an all star there.

1557
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 2: I don't know about that, but that's what being in

1558
01:23:08,439 --> 01:23:10,160
Speaker 2: quarantine does for you. I guess it gives you a

1559
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,960
Speaker 2: lot of time to waste your time on Twitter.

1560
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:16,639
Speaker 3: It's fun. There are a lot of people on there

1561
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 3: sharing a lot of really cool so it's it's easy

1562
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:23,519
Speaker 3: to get It's easy to go down a rabbit hole

1563
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 3: on Twitter, certainly.

1564
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 1: So you're Bee Schneider one two six there is it

1565
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:29,800
Speaker 1: the same on Instagram?

1566
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:31,719
Speaker 3: I haven't the slightest idea.

1567
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just look up to Brian Schneider. We'll include

1568
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 1: in the show notes. But I I appreciate the time

1569
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 1: and and uh coming on. It's been long overdue.

1570
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:43,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been Funydie, thanks for having me.

1571
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll talk soon. Hopefully. You gotta get out

1572
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 1: to Old Town during this. When you got there, you're

1573
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:51,799
Speaker 1: gonna be driving through there all the time.

1574
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 3: It is a goal.

1575
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I drove past I drove through North Carolina yesterday

1576
01:23:55,439 --> 01:23:56,559
Speaker 2: and considered making.

1577
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:58,680
Speaker 3: The detour, but I don't know if this is the time. Yeah,

1578
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:00,680
Speaker 3: we'll get there soon. No, it's it's at the top

1579
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:20,640
Speaker 3: of my list. HM.