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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. Today is Monday, February second.

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Speaker 2: Guess what It's Groundhog's Day and I think Phil saw

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Speaker 2: his shadow. So we have six more weeks of winter

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Speaker 2: and listen. It would be True Crime Tonight if we

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Speaker 2: did not have a stacked night of headlines. The jury

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Speaker 2: returns a verdict in the brutal All Pair murder trial,

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Speaker 2: and to no one's surprised, the Alexander brothers appear in

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Speaker 2: the Epstein Files as their sex trafficking trial enters a

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Speaker 2: second week, and the mother of a news anchor, Suvannah

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Speaker 2: Guthrie is mysteriously missing. So we're going to get right

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Speaker 2: into that, but first we are so excited to give

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Speaker 2: our warmest welcomes to veteran trial attorney and Pennsylvania prosecutor

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Speaker 2: Jarrett Farantino. He's going to be here to help us

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Speaker 2: break down the all the legal nitty gritty of all

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Speaker 2: the cases we've been filed. We have this verdict in

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Speaker 2: we're going to unpack that. Welcome Jarrett, how are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm well, it's great to be with you all.

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Speaker 4: A month's good.

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Speaker 5: To be with you.

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Speaker 2: Happy Monday? Is it pucksatani?

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Speaker 4: Phil? Is?

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Speaker 5: That?

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Speaker 2: Is that the groundhog that sees a shadow?

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Speaker 3: That's the gun here in Pennsylvania here?

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Speaker 2: Yep, that's why I that's why you're here. You're here

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Speaker 2: to unpack the shadow sighting and six more weeks of winter? Right,

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Speaker 2: this is why he's here, especially on a Monday.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Staten Island, Chuck just he always gets overshadowed, no

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Speaker 5: pun intended. Well, he's another groundhog doing his job, and

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Speaker 5: he had the same thing. Really, Yes, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Know there were two groundhogs, you know, working against us

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Speaker 2: to keep more six more weeks of winter.

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Speaker 5: Did he see his shadow too?

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Speaker 4: Yep?

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Speaker 2: Courtney, Oh gosh, I never heard of him. He's overshadowed.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen that movie Grown Dogs Day?

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Speaker 5: Indeed?

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Speaker 2: Oh so good, so so good. So let's get things

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Speaker 2: started right. Monday, February second, let's go to a talkback.

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Speaker 4: Good Morning True Crime.

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Speaker 5: I'm listening to your February first podcast.

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Speaker 6: You're speaking of the Banfield murder's body just said she

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Speaker 6: doesn't think the all pair.

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Speaker 3: Was smart enough. I'm gonna say I disagree.

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Speaker 6: Look at the Plea deal of this woman.

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Speaker 3: God, I don't believe her.

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Speaker 6: There were so many holes in her story, and I

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Speaker 6: think people need to look harder at her than what

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Speaker 6: they are. Don't get me wrong, this whole Bandfield thing,

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Speaker 6: it's terrific. The Plea deal, she got a travesty, But

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Speaker 6: I just think she lied a lot to get what

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Speaker 6: she got and was much more involved than she is saying.

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Speaker 5: Good point.

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Speaker 2: You know. I wonder I wonder if there's a world

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Speaker 2: that's a really good point. Thank you for that talkback.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if there's a world where she was the mastermind.

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Speaker 2: Oh anyway, and Courtney tell us what happened?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So to catch you up. Brendan Banfield was found

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Speaker 5: guilty today. This was in Virginia, and he's found guilty

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Speaker 5: of murdering his wife, Christine Banfield, as well as Joseph Ryan,

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Speaker 5: who was a stranger to them all, who Banfield kind

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Speaker 5: of masterminded getting him into the house and to cost

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Speaker 5: this man his life. This happened back in February twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty three, and we have reached the end of the

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Speaker 5: high profile all pair, all pair, a fair trial, Fams, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 5: And prosecutors have said that convicted killer Banfield did indeed

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Speaker 5: plot with the family's au pair Juliana Maglese to kill

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Speaker 5: his wife and to frame Joseph Ryan, also murdered that day. Banfield.

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Speaker 5: He took the stand, he denied the plot. He claimed

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Speaker 5: that he arrived home on the day of the murders

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Speaker 5: and was quote too late to stop a sexual fantasy

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Speaker 5: gone wrong, and that Banfield really painted himself as a

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Speaker 5: hero and what I found to be a disgusting way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: On the stand, the prosecution relied heavily on the app

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Speaker 5: air Juliana's testimony, and she described in detail helping Banfield

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Speaker 5: carry out the murders, stage the scene, and call nine

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Speaker 5: one one, along with many gruesome details along the way.

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Speaker 5: So I'd say, first we have a couple more details.

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Speaker 5: But Jared, what's your knee jerk reaction to this verdict?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the jury got it right, let's start there.

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Speaker 3: But my knee jerk reaction is they clearly believed the

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Speaker 3: prosecution's version of events as told by Juliana doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: they liked Juliana, doesn't mean they liked what she did.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't even mean they liked the plea deal she got.

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Speaker 3: Brandon's version of events never made sense if you look

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Speaker 3: at it. Here's just a couple of facts about this case.

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Speaker 3: What is more likely the scenario, the fet life account,

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Speaker 3: the catfishing that went on. Do you know that Banfield

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Speaker 3: got super thick windows installed in his house months before

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Speaker 3: the murder. He took Juliana to the gun range, He

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Speaker 3: didn't go to work that day, He went to McDonald's

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Speaker 3: to the bathroom. He claimed all of this stuff, so

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Speaker 3: they were both in proximity to the house to return there.

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Speaker 3: All of that is strange and makes no sense. Always

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Speaker 3: when things didn't make sense like this in cases, I

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Speaker 3: always say the defendant is either the unluckiest person of

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Speaker 3: the world, or guilt in the world, or guilty of murder.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And thank you for reminding the windows, Jared that

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Speaker 5: you're referring to. Banfield spent thirty thousand dollars on triple

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Speaker 5: pained windows. And you could think, Okay, I always try

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Speaker 5: and give benefit of the down. Okay, you want to

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Speaker 5: insulate your house. No, No, According to the AU pairs

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Speaker 5: testimony Banfield, and she then tested how sound proof they

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Speaker 5: would be by her screaming inside of the house to

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Speaker 5: see if neighbors would hear. And the Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 5: it was really unbelievable, right.

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Speaker 3: You just think it comes down to how this story

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Speaker 3: is told. When Julie, you don't have to take much

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Speaker 3: of a leap of faith with Juliana when you look

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Speaker 3: at all the circumstances, it actually makes sense. And jurors

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Speaker 3: like that when they are asked to believe somebody that

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Speaker 3: got a sweetheart deal. But they are so their version

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Speaker 3: of events is supported by the evidence that reaffirms them

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Speaker 3: in that belief. They're telling the truth and this person

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Speaker 3: is guilty, and that's exactly what happened.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Going back really quickly to the talk back and about

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Speaker 5: Juliana's sentence. So what the prosecutors have recommend did is

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Speaker 5: that the au pair is sentenced to time serve. However, Okay,

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Speaker 5: I know bodyboo hold on. However, she is possibly facing

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Speaker 5: ten years associating with this man's letter, and her sentence

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Speaker 5: is ultimately at the discretion of the judge. Jared, is

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Speaker 5: there a guess as to how these things go or

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Speaker 5: what determines walking out today or ten years.

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Speaker 3: Well, you nailed it, Courtney the judge. So the prosecution

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Speaker 3: can recommend a time serve sentence till they're blue in

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Speaker 3: the face. But if the judge doesn't think it's the

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Speaker 3: appropriate sentence, he can nail her with the ten years. However,

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Speaker 3: what's more likely to happen the prosecutions not only making

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Speaker 3: a recommendation, they're going to say she was the less

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Speaker 3: cultual in the situation. All the talkback I heard earlier

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Speaker 3: would disagree, right, but she was less culpable, she participated,

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Speaker 3: she testified truthfully, and they got brandon as a result.

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Speaker 3: So all of that together may weigh heavily on the judge.

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Speaker 3: But the judge may look at this and say, hey,

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Speaker 3: you are just as responsible. You shot Joseph Ryan as well.

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Speaker 3: You were part of the planning the child. You know,

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Speaker 3: you took this little girl, you had her in proximity

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Speaker 3: of her mother's death, and this guy coming in there

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Speaker 3: to role play with her. All of that together does

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Speaker 3: not look good for Julianna. So really the judge could

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Speaker 3: put her in jail. But remember this, even if the

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Speaker 3: judge maxis are out, it's woefully below what she was

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Speaker 3: looking at if she was facing murder charges.

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Speaker 2: If you're just joining us, this is Seer Crime. Tonight,

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Speaker 2: we're right in the middle of talking about the jury

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Speaker 2: verdict in the all pair murder trial. Brendan Banfield has

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Speaker 2: been found guilty and right now we're right in the

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Speaker 2: middle of dissecting it all. At the top, we had

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Speaker 2: a talk back and listen, this talkback got under my

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Speaker 2: I think she might no, and I mean in the

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Speaker 2: best way possible.

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Speaker 5: I love those talkbacks.

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Speaker 2: And you know, she's got me thinking about you. I

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Speaker 2: think we talked about this earlier, like last week the

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Speaker 2: Primal Fear movie, right where Edward Norton's character is playing

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Speaker 2: like he uh, you know, I can't remember he was

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Speaker 2: developmentally delayed and he got off basically, and then we

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Speaker 2: find out at the end he was behind it all

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Speaker 2: and he did everything.

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Speaker 5: Is Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: I can't help but think that Juliana is sitting in

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Speaker 2: her cell right now like kind of like twisting her

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Speaker 2: evil mustache, you know what I mean, if she if

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Speaker 2: this talkback gut It's got me thinking like maybe, you know,

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Speaker 2: hopefully the judge takes into you know, consideration her testimony

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Speaker 2: about all this money she's going to be getting from

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Speaker 2: like Netflix and whatnot, and sentences her to the maximum penalty.

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Speaker 2: That's just my opinion. By the way, Yeah, I got

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Speaker 2: under my skin.

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Speaker 4: I can I jump in because I've been dying to

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Speaker 4: ask Jared one question about Yeah, seeing him on the stand,

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Speaker 4: I wondered, was that a bad choice? Like did that

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Speaker 4: that ultimately hurt his guilty towards a guilty and great verdict.

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Speaker 3: In this case, it was a bad choice for Brendan.

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Speaker 3: Banfield in hindsight did not come across very well. He

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Speaker 3: had bad expressions, his tone wasn't right, and by the way,

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Speaker 3: he put himself at the murder scene, so that didn't

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Speaker 3: help either. You know, this was a circumstantial case without Juliana.

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Speaker 3: It got better with her, but Brandon did not help himself.

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Speaker 3: You know, obviously a defendant has that choice. They do

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Speaker 3: or they do not have to. They can testify, they

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Speaker 3: don't have to. In this case, I think Brendan did

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Speaker 3: more harm than good. Clearly, his explanation of all of

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Speaker 3: the evidence just didn't make a whole lot of sense,

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Speaker 3: was not reasonable, and the jury did and buy it.

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Speaker 3: So I don't think it paid off well. Clearly it

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Speaker 3: didn't pay off for him.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 2: I was watching him testify. I was watching Emily D. Baker,

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Speaker 2: she's a lawyer on YouTube, and he said on the

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Speaker 2: stand he said I couldn't fully fall in love with

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Speaker 2: the nanny because Christine was still around. And Emily D.

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Speaker 2: Baker lost it. She was like, what is he doing?

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Speaker 5: How do you think?

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Speaker 2: It was very bad? Do you think that was a

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Speaker 2: bad moment, Jared.

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Speaker 3: He's revictimizing and dehumanized. Yes, she's an obstacle to him.

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Speaker 3: On what planet do you think that's going to bote? Well?

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Speaker 3: Two seconds ago he was crying about her. Now he's saying,

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Speaker 3: she's in the way of my love.

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Speaker 2: With the pair, Right, I think that was like the

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Speaker 2: nail for me. That was like the nail in the coffin,

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Speaker 2: so to speak. Right, it was everybody that was watching

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Speaker 2: this was just like what is he?

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Speaker 5: Oh my god? It was crazy. And also the way

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Speaker 5: what got under my skin since where that is a

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Speaker 5: very accurate saying in this moment was how Banfield. I

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Speaker 5: felt like he was presenting himself as almost a hero

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Speaker 5: and he came in and tried to do this and

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Speaker 5: his wife was apologizing with her last breath. Can you imagine?

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Speaker 5: I mean, okay, that's out of my say.

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Speaker 3: Stem we called Juliana a hero, she saved him by

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Speaker 3: Did you hear that too?

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Speaker 8: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean was I miss hearing that? He called

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Speaker 3: her his hero bringing him there right, and then her

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Speaker 3: acting out and taking out Joseph Ryan.

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Speaker 5: With them getting the gun out of the safe or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's important to consider this with that statement,

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Speaker 3: how it impacted everybody when he dehumanized Christia in jurors,

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Speaker 3: never forget how you make them feel. You can say things,

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Speaker 3: you can show evidence, but boy, that is a writ

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Speaker 3: in the chest when you feel that there's in a

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Speaker 3: homicide trial of all places, there's no turning back.

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Speaker 4: But isn't that wouldn't that be something like the defense

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Speaker 4: practiced or got him to do ahead of time?

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Speaker 3: Like occurring? But you know, all bets are off when

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Speaker 3: they get on that standa But I agree, yeah, you

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Speaker 3: would hope you say, Brandon, do not say Christine was

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Speaker 3: in the way of your love affair with Julia. That's

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Speaker 3: kind of the entire theory of the case.

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Speaker 2: Unbelievable.

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Speaker 4: It was.

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Speaker 2: It was definitely a moment. I think that's going to

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Speaker 2: go down in like courtroom history, but this case did

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Speaker 2: not use waterfall sentencing. How common is this jury instruction

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Speaker 2: and why would the commonwealth choose not to use that?

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Speaker 2: And maybe kind of go over what waterfall sentencing is so.

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Speaker 3: We don't call it that in Pennsylvania had to look

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Speaker 3: that up. So when we were talking about waterfall, it

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Speaker 3: basically means the jury would be instructed on the highest

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Speaker 3: count of murder and then the lower charge is saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: if you don't believe he intended to do this, maybe

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Speaker 3: it was a malicious murder or.

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Speaker 2: A man's not aggravated, right, it's okay, right, It's a fleck.

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Speaker 3: The prosecutors when they say, we feel so strongly in

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Speaker 3: our case, we're not even going down. We're not even

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Speaker 3: going down the waterfall route. You're not going to get

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Speaker 3: lesser instructions. It's all or nothing.

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Speaker 5: Is that risky?

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Speaker 3: Oh there's some risk there, but they believed, Hey, either

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Speaker 3: you're gonna believe Juliana and our evidence or you don't.

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Speaker 3: If you do, how do you come down anywhere other

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Speaker 3: than intentional murder.

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Speaker 2: I just think that's so risky, Like if they don't

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Speaker 2: find that he was guilty of aggravated murder, but maybe

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Speaker 2: manslaughter or something that he would just would he just

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Speaker 2: walk away?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well that's the risk they took because they knew

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Speaker 3: their case hinged on whether or not Juliana was believed

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Speaker 3: and whether or not this whole cat fish thing happened

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Speaker 3: to Lord Joseph Ryan there.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I just can't believe that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you don't believe Joseph Ryan was lured there,

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Speaker 3: you would believe Christine had that account, met Joseph Ryan

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Speaker 3: and they set it all up. Happened upon this situation,

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Speaker 3: it's either it happened the way the prosecution says, or

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Speaker 3: it didn't, which is why it's aggravated murder or nothing.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that seems kind of I don't know. It just

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Speaker 2: seems risky to me not to include any lesser charges

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Speaker 2: for the jury to maybe agree happened. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: very interesting. Keep it right here. This is true crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Up next, Attorneynee jarreted Fvarantino is going to stick with

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Speaker 2: us to continue unpacking the verdict in the app Air case,

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Speaker 2: and later Jared's going to help us break down why

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Speaker 2: the death penalty is off the table for Luigi Manngeon,

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Speaker 2: keep it right here to your friend.

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Speaker 5: Tonight, Welcome back True Crantz. Tonight on iHeartRadio, we are

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Speaker 5: talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I

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Speaker 5: am here with a body move in. Stephanie Leidecker is

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Speaker 5: still out and again you will get all of the

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Speaker 5: update both on sun Dance and what is happening, what

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Speaker 5: natural disaster she's literally dealing with. So we are sending

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Speaker 5: good wishes and she's to get back.

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Speaker 4: We love you, I.

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Speaker 5: Got this, we got this morning. Well, we also got

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Speaker 5: Jarrett Farantino, Prosecutor extraordinaire, who is with us, and right

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Speaker 5: now we're unpacking the latest in the Banfield case. And

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Speaker 5: today was verdict. Dae and Brendan Banfield was found guilty

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Speaker 5: of a double murder that prosecutors say he planned with

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Speaker 5: the families all air. So I wanted to hop in

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Speaker 5: and talk about the charges and maybe you can just

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Speaker 5: sort of explain some of those, Jared, So.

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Speaker 3: We oh so sorry, go ahead, Courty, sorry, oh.

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Speaker 5: We have two counts of aggravated murder. We have one

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Speaker 5: count of use of a firearm and commission of a felony.

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Speaker 5: We have one count of child endangerment because Banfield's four

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Speaker 5: year old daughter was home in the basement during the murders.

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Speaker 5: What do we need to know?

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Speaker 3: Well, when you have there's murder and then there's aggravated murder,

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Speaker 3: Like you're in enough trouble when you're charged with murder, right,

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Speaker 3: But when you commit an aggravated murder, oftentimes it is

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Speaker 3: a planned out thing over a period of time. There

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Speaker 3: are the use of a firearm again goes to that

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Speaker 3: level of intent. The fact that their little girl was

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Speaker 3: in the zone of danger when guns are going off,

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Speaker 3: she's in the house. So all of those things together,

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Speaker 3: the extended plan and the fact that there were multiple

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Speaker 3: victims are all aggravating circumstances that enhanced the sentence you're

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Speaker 3: ultimately facing and the nature of the crime. And if

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Speaker 3: you look at the theory of the prosecution's case here,

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Speaker 3: it fit very well that those aggravating murder charges Banfield

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Speaker 3: was facing. Those aggravated murder just gave them the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to tell the story and prove their case at the

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Speaker 3: same time.

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Speaker 5: Got it okay? Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Is it common that if there's a if there's children

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Speaker 2: present during the commission of a crime, that there's some

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Speaker 2: kind of child endangerment child abuse charge? Is this common?

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Speaker 8: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Because number one, the child was in danger in this situation,

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Speaker 3: and number two, the fact that they're present. You want

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Speaker 3: the jury to hear that. You want them to know

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Speaker 3: not only were they present, they were in danger. Like

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Speaker 3: it adds an element of evil and culpability to this case.

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Speaker 3: And my god, I mean it was her mother that

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Speaker 3: was murdered, So not only was she at risk, she's

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Speaker 3: in the blast zone of her mother's murder and was

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Speaker 3: brought into that home by Juliana that day. So all

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Speaker 3: of those things together, you want to be able to

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Speaker 3: tell that part of the story. What makes that part

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Speaker 3: of the story relevant even if their little girls not understand,

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Speaker 3: which she did not testify little she's young, you can

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Speaker 3: tell that story with that charge without her having to testify.

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Speaker 3: So it's important in presenting your case.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely. And I wanted to take a minute because

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Speaker 5: we spoke a little bit about victim Joseph Ryan a

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Speaker 5: couple of days ago, and his mother has had the

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Speaker 5: most beautiful things to say about him. He was a

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Speaker 5: passionate man about social justice, and he loved animals and

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Speaker 5: had a very close relationship with his mother and just

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Speaker 5: one last thing that she said was my plan is

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Speaker 5: one day when after I passed, Joe and I will

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Speaker 5: go together to someplace. But for now he's sitting up there.

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Speaker 5: Christine Banfield, we haven't spoken about her, we haven't very

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Speaker 5: much at all. So just a quick rundown of this

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Speaker 5: woman who tragically her life is over now because of

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Speaker 5: Brendan Banfield. She was born and raised in Long Island

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Speaker 5: and YEP, which makes me like her already. And she

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Speaker 5: was a nurse, and she worked as a sexual assault

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Speaker 5: nurse examiner at some points, and during the COVID pandemic

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Speaker 5: she continued her work as a nurse. And we all

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Speaker 5: remember what that was like. I mean, I was going

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Speaker 5: into battle. It was literally going into battle, and she

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Speaker 5: still did it. Wow, that's right. And she was consistently

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Speaker 5: and overwhelmingly described for her wonderful patient care, and you know,

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Speaker 5: one person described her as an angel and just she

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Speaker 5: went above and beyond. And then her daughter, it's just

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Speaker 5: a heartbreak. I mean she she referred to her now

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Speaker 5: four year old child as her sunshine, her silly girl

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Speaker 5: and my world. And then this gets me. Her final

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Speaker 5: social media post, which was in on February twenty first,

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty three, only three days before her murder. It

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Speaker 5: was a drawing by her daughter titled My Mama the Queen,

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Speaker 5: Oh God. And so you just ache to know that

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Speaker 5: this little girl, now she's lost her mother, and now

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Speaker 5: her father is in prison for presumably the rest of

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Speaker 5: his life, and the nanny, who any child is necessarily

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Speaker 5: going to be close to their nanny, the nanny is

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Speaker 5: out of her life as well. So this poor little girl,

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Speaker 5: this poor girl. And yeah, so anyway, that was we

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Speaker 5: just wanted to really take a moment to you know.

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Speaker 2: What, one thing that I want to also kind of

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Speaker 2: get into, she posted on her social media. In twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one, there was another All Pair that they had

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Speaker 2: prior to this one, the Juliana Magalas, and she said,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't understand the All Pair program,

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Speaker 2: but this is it right here. It is opening your

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Speaker 2: home and your heart to someone with big dreams of

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Speaker 2: changing their life while in America, and in the process

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Speaker 2: they changed your life more than you could measure. And

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Speaker 2: she kept like a close relationship with that former All Pair.

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Speaker 2: They had formed quite a good bond and so I

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Speaker 2: just it's extra heartbreaking, you know, the All Pair program

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Speaker 2: apparently was something she really believed in, you know, and

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Speaker 2: to have this betrayal, it's just even more diabolical than

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Speaker 2: I initially got right.

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Speaker 5: It's just so diabolical.

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Speaker 4: Wow, you think it made me wonder too, had that

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Speaker 4: a pair stayed on, how different life were? Yeah, the

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Speaker 4: different path. I mean, of course, you you never know,

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Speaker 4: anything can change. But you know something I was going

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Speaker 4: to another question for Jared this. You know, we got

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Speaker 4: the verdict today Monday, that gave the jurors an entire

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Speaker 4: weekend to kind of sit and think things over. Do

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Speaker 4: you think a wee can break impacts jury deliberations in

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Speaker 4: any way?

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Speaker 3: It's you know what, Taha, That's a good question, and

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Speaker 3: I've had that happen. No one likes that because the

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Speaker 3: risk of a problem is greater, you know, the risks

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Speaker 3: that a juror will talk to their spouse. Sometimes the

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Speaker 3: emotions intensify over the weekends. You get out of that

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Speaker 3: juror mode. You're back in your home, you're looking at

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Speaker 3: your own kids, you're looking at your husband, your wife,

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Speaker 3: maybe your own off hair, and you become more yourself

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Speaker 3: than a juror at that point. So as time goes on,

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Speaker 3: when you get back to the courthouse on Monday, there

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Speaker 3: could be any myriad of issues. So for me, you

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Speaker 3: always wanted to get that close in get the jury charged,

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Speaker 3: even if it was on a Friday and you were

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Speaker 3: going to have to stay late.

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Speaker 2: Jared, you prosecuted a lot of cases. I'm a murder

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Speaker 2: charger murder cases. Even what can I ask you, what

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Speaker 2: is it like waiting for that verdict? I always wondered,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's got to be crazy, But like, what's

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Speaker 2: it like?

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Speaker 3: It is time stops when you're standing there and you're

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Speaker 3: standing with the people that you've worked on this case

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Speaker 3: for years. Remember this case happened three years ago this month, right,

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Speaker 3: So the people that are in that courtroom have been

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Speaker 3: together on this thing for three years, and for a

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Speaker 3: long time they suspected Brandon was responsible. He was not

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Speaker 3: in custody, he was charged later, and today is the

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Speaker 3: day they've been waiting for. So that moment is emotional overload.

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Speaker 3: I mean I remember times where like, my tears are

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Speaker 3: hitting the wooden table standing there hearing the verdict. Literally

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Speaker 3: you just break and you're and you're in a little

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Speaker 3: bit of shocks on a case like so it's an

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Speaker 3: amazing moment for the families and for everyone in there

436
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: to hear what they always knew was the case.

437
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: It's almost like validation of all your hard work, right,

438
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: Like you.

439
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 3: Said, valid for the families of.

440
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: Course, of course, yeah, I mean I can't imagine what

441
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: it's like for the families. I just kind of wondered,

442
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: I was being nosy. I wanted to know what it

443
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: was like inside baseball, in the in the prosecutor's office.

444
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: Like, it's also very nerve wracking because a.

445
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 2: Family, they're putting so much faith into your work. That's

446
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: a lot of pressure. I can't imagine.

447
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 3: Strangers when you think about it, Oh, you don't know

448
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 3: making what will be one of the most significant decisions

449
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 3: in your life.

450
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. Oh man, listen, if you are just joining us,

451
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 5: this is true crime tonight, and we are talking about

452
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 5: the Brendan Banfield trial. He has been found guilty of

453
00:25:54,640 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 5: basically corroborating a plot with the pair to murder his wife,

454
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 5: Christine and Joseph Ryan as well. I wanted to say

455
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 5: one thing, and I won't take us too far off course,

456
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 5: but I if any of you have listened to the

457
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 5: piked In Massacre, it's a podcast at Katie Studios. We've

458
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 5: done for we have followed this case for many years,

459
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 5: and I actually was in the room when one of

460
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 5: the guilty verdicts came down, and it came down so

461
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 5: quickly that a lot of reporters, I mean, it was

462
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 5: no one could have imagined how quickly it happened. And

463
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 5: the energy I've actually never felt anything like it that case,

464
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 5: without going into it, it had eight victims and so Jared,

465
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 5: there was a lot of victims families, and the energy

466
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 5: again was just almost indescribable.

467
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 2: You can probably taste it in the air right like

468
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: you could feel the vibrations. I guess that kind of

469
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: you know, so to speak. I can't imagine.

470
00:26:59,080 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 5: And you're weird.

471
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 3: Time before the verdict comes in too, you're sitting downstairs.

472
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 3: I used to sit in our war room with like,

473
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 3: not everyone because I didn't want to hear people's nervous

474
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 3: stories and stuff. I would just sit with like my

475
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 3: inner circle of people and joke around, and you know,

476
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 3: if it went too long, we'd get food, which was

477
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: not always a time, but you'd sit there and you

478
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: just kind of feel like everything we left everything on

479
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: the field. Now we just wait, you know, you got

480
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: your closing argument done, you're a little relieved, but then

481
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: as more time goes on, you get more nervous because

482
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 3: you want them to be back quicker.

483
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 5: Is there a rule of thumb with how quickly the

484
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 5: verdict comes back of whether it goes guilty or not guilty.

485
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 3: Most people, Courtney, feel like that if it comes back quick,

486
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 3: it's typically a guilty verdict. That's been my experience. That's

487
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 3: been the sentiment of the people I've worked with. But

488
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: you know, if the case was garbage and you hope

489
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 3: that prosecution would never bring a case, that's that horrible

490
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 3: that twelve people can unanimously agree that quick on an acquittal.

491
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 3: See an acquittal if you had probable cause for the arrest.

492
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 3: An acquittal takes twelve people a little longer to get to.

493
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Remember, Courtney, I did that spreadsheet of like people

494
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 2: that were defendants and then how long the jury was

495
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: out and then what the verdict was. I think it

496
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: was during the Karen Reid.

497
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 4: Trial that Yeah, And and there.

498
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: Was correlation to what Jarrett saying, like if they come

499
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: back soon, the jury kind of made up their mind,

500
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, before you deliberations began, really they went in

501
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: there and they said not guilty or guilty whatever and done. Yeah,

502
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: so there, I mean, there does seem to be a

503
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: little bit of correlation between that.

504
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 5: There was another question, Oh, Todd, did you.

505
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 4: I did have one because I m then I get

506
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: the chance to pick an attorney's brain. I know, I

507
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 4: just I find so much to this world fascinating. But

508
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 4: one of the thoughts or questions I had is how

509
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: much do attorneys take into account the physical appearance of

510
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 4: their clients. It crossed my mind early on when we

511
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: were doing Diddy and suddenly his hair is gray and

512
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: he's holding the Bible looking older, or Harvey Weinstein like

513
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 4: now was a good day to use your walker? Like

514
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 4: how much do they think about you?

515
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: They don't think about that, Taha. Nobody's superficial in the courtroom,

516
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: you know that, right. It goes down to those nonverbal

517
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 3: signals that you're sending so many things like Diddy. If

518
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 3: Diddy came in there in a fur coat like he's

519
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: been known to wear, and the shape, he might be

520
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 3: sending the wrong message like he's not taking it seriously,

521
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: and which which in this case, if you look at

522
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: Juliana or Juliana, how she looked, you know, when they

523
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 3: were clubbing in New York, versus how she looked on

524
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 3: that stand. She was wearing glasses, her hair was down,

525
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 3: she was modestly dressed. She's sending a message of credibility.

526
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 3: This is what a nanny should look like and and

527
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 3: I should be believed. I'm not this buxom of pair

528
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: that he fell for. I'm calmer, I'm more modest, And

529
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: that's the that's the credibility message you're trying to send.

530
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 4: Have you ever had a client that pushed back, No,

531
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: I'm not wearing that.

532
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: Or I had a guy show up one time. Uh

533
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: his shirt said ride it like you stole it a witness.

534
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I sweatshirt on.

535
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 5: He was a witness for.

536
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: You were able to do a show just on Mike Crazy.

537
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 3: But that's one of them. I've had him show up.

538
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: I can imagine you guys in the bathroom, like taking

539
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: off your shirts, getting a tie ready and giving a

540
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: blazer ready. You know, Oh my goodness, that's a little

541
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: that's a good reality show.

542
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 4: There's something there behind the scenes.

543
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, Oh my god.

544
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: Could you imagine if there wasn't like attorney client privilege.

545
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 5: I watched that like I would.

546
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: I would think that would absolutely be a hit.

547
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 4: Right, completely agreed.

548
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: I figure I wouldn't make that happen Jared's Coming Star.

549
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: It is important. It's very important too when you're putting

550
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 3: on and I always looked at this like a production.

551
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 3: You're putting on a presentation. You want your people to

552
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 3: look the part. You want them to flow with your

553
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: theory of the case. You don't want any wild cards

554
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,959
Speaker 3: in there. You know you want people The last thing

555
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: you want is the wrong message from some type of

556
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: outfit or something that's just not right.

557
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 5: You keep those wild cards out. Later in the show,

558
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 5: we are going to be talking about the Alexander Brothers

559
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 5: and no shocker, they appear in the Ebstein Files and

560
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 5: this is unfolding as the Alexander brother sex trafficking trial

561
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 5: enters its second week. We're also going to give you

562
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 5: an update on the mother of news anchor Savannah Guthrie.

563
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 5: She's gone mysteriously missing, and we'll just share some details. Yeah, However,

564
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 5: right now I'm Courtney Armstrong and body move in and

565
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 5: producer to AHA. We are here with Jarrett Farentino, Prosecutor Extraordinaire,

566
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 5: with Sam and Adam in the control room, and we

567
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 5: are desperate, Jarrett, to speak with you about the Luigi

568
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 5: Mangeon case. We have legal questions. We have all been

569
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 5: squirreling away. Body. You want to start us off. Yeah,

570
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 5: it's still a little quick setup.

571
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: So a federal judge ruled that accused Healthcare CEO shooter

572
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: Luigi Mangione, he's not going to face the death penalty,

573
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: and this is dismissing the federal murder charge and the

574
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: related firearm count that made him eligible for capital punishment.

575
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: Luigi Mangione is accused of assassinating United Healthcare CEO Brian

576
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: Thompson in December of twenty four right in Town, Manhattan,

577
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: in what prosecutors have described as an ideological, motivated, and

578
00:32:54,560 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 2: meticulously planned attack. Luigi Mangione he faces overlapping federal, New

579
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: York State and Pennsylvania charges.

580
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 5: So the District.

581
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: The US District Judge Margaret Garnett wrote that the decision

582
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: may strike the average person, and indeed many lawyers and judges,

583
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: as tortured and strange, but it represents the court's committed

584
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: effort to faithfully apply the dictates of the Supreme Court. Okay,

585
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: so put a pin in that the judge also rejected

586
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: the prosecutor's argument that Luisgi Mangion.

587
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 5: Allegedly stalking the alleged.

588
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: Stalking of the victim CEO Brian Thompson qualified as a

589
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: crime of violence, which is a requirement for federal capital murderer,

590
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: which is also put upin in that police These are

591
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: all points I want to make ause we have questions

592
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: for jarreted. Okay, federal prosecutors have not decided whether or

593
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: not to appeal, and the Justice Department must update the

594
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: court by February twenty seventh.

595
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 5: Put a pin in that one too.

596
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: And then Luigi he remains charged with two federal stalking counts,

597
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 2: each carrying a maximum sentence of life without parole. Now

598
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: Here's where we get into the questions that we've kind

599
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: of been stacking up for mister Jarrett Farantino. Can you

600
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: explain this ruling in Layman's term? She is she saying

601
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: that stalking isn't violent? Because she said this stalking is

602
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: not a violent, a crime of violence.

603
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 5: What is she saying?

604
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: Well, this is why people don't like lawyers, because it's

605
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 3: hard to understand down to hyper technical Yeah, definitions and

606
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 3: applications and Here's here's basically what she's saying. The aggravator

607
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 3: here would be the murder was committed along with a

608
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: crime of violence and the crime of remember that term

609
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 3: put it in quotes highlighted in yellow and circle in red. Right.

610
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 3: A crime of violence under federal law requires that an

611
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: element of the defense of the offense has attempted use

612
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: or threaten use of physical force. However, the fact that

613
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 3: stocking can occur without violence does not make it a

614
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 3: crime of as defined under federal law. You can stock someone,

615
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 3: you can follow them, you can harass them, text them,

616
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 3: and because you can do it without actually carrying out

617
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 3: a violent act, it doesn't make it inherently a crime

618
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 3: of violence. And that's why the judge acknowledged people may

619
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: not understand or like this ruling because in this case is.

620
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: Interesting.

621
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 5: It doesn't make sense.

622
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: Crime must be inherently a crime of violence.

623
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 4: And stalking is not interesting.

624
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: Not to say it's not terrifying in dangerous, It absolutely is,

625
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: and that doesn't diminish the crime of stocking.

626
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: Is that why she described it as tortured and strange too?

627
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 2: Or was that referencing something totally different.

628
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 3: My reading of that body is she was talking about

629
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 3: her assessment of this of the case, saying, like, I

630
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 3: did a tortured analysis. It was a pun because torture

631
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 3: is actually an aggravator for the death right, so she

632
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 3: had torture on her mind, I think. But she is

633
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: basically saying, I went through a tortured process in assessing

634
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: the definition of crime of violence under the federal law

635
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: to this case and whether or not stocking can be

636
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: committed without an actual violent act. And everyone out there

637
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 3: may be thinking, this is, how can this be? He

638
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: killed he killed Brian Thompson, And the reality is this

639
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: that doesn't That's not what she's saying. She's saying the

640
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 3: crime of violence itself is the crime of stocking can

641
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 3: bemitted without a violent act.

642
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 2: Okay, even though it resulted in murder in this case.

643
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 5: Right, Yes, it's so curious, and I mean going across

644
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 5: state lines anyway, that's the judge, and I'm definitely in them.

645
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: I'm definitely the layman's strang. Yeah, I'm definitely in the

646
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: layman's camp.

647
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 5: Jared. What so the federal prosecutors haven't decided whether to appeal.

648
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 5: Any thoughts on that? Is it is it worth quote

649
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 5: worth the appeal or what's the math that goes into that.

650
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 3: Well, it's certainly it's an issue worth fighting because it's

651
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 3: a huge issue, whether or not. I mean, the federal

652
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: charges were essentially brought, you know, in the wake of

653
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: this killing, and from President Trump to the Attorney General,

654
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: they said he's going to face death. He's no longer

655
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: facing death. On the word of one judge, is it

656
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,959
Speaker 3: worth taking it up on appeal? Would another judge see

657
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 3: this differently? Possibly? But I do think what the judge

658
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: is saying makes sense and will likely stand up to

659
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: appellate scrutiny here. So it's a tough call, but it

660
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 3: is an important enough issue to continue to pursue it.

661
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 3: What do they have to lose at this point?

662
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: Well, and the judges has said that, you know, she's

663
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: making this ruling to faithfully apply the dictates of the

664
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: Supreme Court. So even if she did take it to

665
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 2: appellate court, if she truly is following the dictates of

666
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, even an appellate court they would say

667
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: the same thing, right if good point.

668
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 3: But those judges disagree with each other all the time.

669
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 2: That's true, that's a good you know, it's a very

670
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 2: good point. That's yeah, wow, interesting.

671
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 5: All right, we wanted to ask you about the evidence.

672
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 5: So the judge has allowed the prosecutors to introduce the

673
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 5: backpack that was seized in man Jones's arrest. If you remember,

674
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 5: he was after a man hunt. He was found in Altoona, Pennsylvania,

675
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 5: and there was a lot to do about whether the

676
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 5: backpack search, which was done without a warrant, if the contents,

677
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 5: including the nine milimeter handgun, could be put into evidence.

678
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 5: So what does that mean for the case.

679
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 3: Do you think, well, there's some good news there if

680
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 3: the backpack comes in. Obviously the gun and the manifesto

681
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 3: come in, even though Mangoni's lawyers don't want us to

682
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 3: call it a manifesto. Right, So that was that Fourth

683
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 3: Amendment challenge. Here we go. We're on a streak of

684
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 3: Fourth Amendments were on the show, but here we are

685
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: right to the court and amendment that's right. So basically,

686
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 3: if the federal courts say the backpacks in, that could

687
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 3: potentially impact Mangioni's cases in Pennsylvania and the underlying murder

688
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 3: charge in New York because you're basically looking at the

689
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 3: same rights. You're right to be free of warrantless search

690
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 3: and seizure under the Fourth Amendment, Okay, and that will

691
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 3: have an impact on the rest of the cases. It's

692
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: not presdential, doesn't mean these other courts have to follow

693
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 3: the backpack decision. It is certainly persuasive, and it is

694
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 3: certainly powerful. I'd argue it's the law of the case.

695
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 3: This very search has held up in a federal court.

696
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 3: You cannot come to New York or Pennsylvania and say

697
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 3: it shouldn't hold up here, Although there are some legal

698
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 3: scholars that'll tell you Pennsylvania has an even more stricter

699
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: for Amendment.

700
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: Right, and that's something that I think. You know, one

701
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: of the bigger, one of the bigger charges in Pennsylvania,

702
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: and and you know this all too well, Jarrett is

703
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: the firearms, the carrying the firearm without the required license,

704
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: and possessing instruments of a crime. Those are his Pennsylvania charges,

705
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: including the forgery and falsification of identification and whatnot. But

706
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 2: the bigger charge.

707
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: I felt that the backpack was going to survive. And

708
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 3: we've talked about this, We talked about inevitable discovery, inventory search.

709
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 3: A judge was going to hang their hat. One of

710
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 3: those exceptions to a warrant. However, I don't love this search.

711
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 3: I don't know why a warrant could have been could

712
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 3: not have been secured. And if I'm the prosecutor on

713
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 3: this case, I'm not thrilled with the way that search

714
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:14,919
Speaker 3: went out.

715
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: And if I'm his defense attorney, I would argue that Lynnell, Listen,

716
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 2: the Pennsylvania chargers are like nothing compared to the murder

717
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: chargers he's facing obviously in New York and federally, but

718
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 2: they are additional charges that he has to face in Pennsylvania.

719
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: And if I'm his defense lawyers, I'm going to be

720
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: holding up that.

721
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 4: You know.

722
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, even our Pennsylvania constitution says that this was an

723
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: illegal search. It was not an inventory search. It was

724
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: an investigative search which violated Luigi menji Own's Fourth Amendment rights.

725
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: It's my opinion, but I'm okay. I would like to

726
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: push back on both of you.

727
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 5: Actually, Oh my goodness, because are we gonna fight? Cortney,

728
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 5: I mean, I listen, Duke's up and Jared, I know

729
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 5: you as well said you don't particularly agree with it,

730
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 5: but it seems incredibly compelling to me that on the

731
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 5: bodycam footage. The officers in the McDonald's were saying, oh,

732
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 5: let's make sure there's not a bomb in it, and

733
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 5: they referenced literally another police officer who very accidentally brought

734
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 5: a bomb. That's someone to add in a bag to

735
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 5: the you know, to the police station, doesn't I don't know.

736
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 5: That seems very compelling.

737
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 3: It's also and I agree that's a great argument, but

738
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 3: here's the problem. They didn't clear out that nothing they

739
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 3: were doing that day would suggest they thought they were

740
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: dealing with a bomb. They didn't clear the customers customers

741
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 3: in that very video. So it's like, if you think

742
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 3: you're dealing with a bomb, like you clear the neighborhoods,

743
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 3: right these guys. Yeah. And again, now if I was

744
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: fighting for that, I would be like they could be

745
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 3: dealing with an explosive here, you know, I'd be handling

746
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 3: it a totally different way. But I'm playing devil's advocate here,

747
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 3: and I do think that response is like, you thought

748
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 3: you had a bomb, you didn't even take the time

749
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 3: to protect the McDonald's customers and employees.

750
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And and what's to prevent them from doing

751
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 2: warrantless searches on every other person using that same excuse

752
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: over and over and over again.

753
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 5: Oh remember ten years ago there was the gull who

754
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 5: bought the bom and do you know what I mean?

755
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: Like they could just use the same excuse over and

756
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: over and over again, or somebody in Philadelphia will be like,

757
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: oh up in Eltuona, they did you know what I mean?

758
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 5: Like it just spreads and it's that's true.

759
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: And that's why you look at those attendant circumstances. You

760
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: would say, is it enough just to say, oh, let's

761
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 3: make sure there's nothing And that was like performance r.

762
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 3: Did you see how the officer said that that's not

763
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: a round. It seems like it was like she had

764
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: to make sure that that's what she said, right, And

765
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: it's like, but nothing else. I'm glad she said it.

766
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 3: I'd use it, but nothing else in anybody else's demeanor.

767
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 3: Believe they looked like they were dealing with a bomb.

768
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 5: Okay, that's very fair that there are people sitting there

769
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 5: having their hash browns and they all right, that's that

770
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 5: is a very fair counter argument. So well, Okay, the

771
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 5: timing of these cases, so the Manhattan prosecutors want the

772
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 5: state murder trial to begin July first of this year,

773
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 5: The federal trial is slated to begin jury selection September

774
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 5: eighth and have opening statements October thirteenth. A that's kind

775
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 5: of close. And also like, does who goes first? How

776
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 5: does that impact the different cases if at all?

777
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 3: Well, there's courtesy here, he's facing murder charges in New

778
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 3: York State. This is a New York murder case predominantly.

779
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 3: It's like, to me, that's what this case is. And

780
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 3: I would think because that case is scheduled first, it's

781
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 3: going to be addressed first. If it took them past

782
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: the start day of the federal trial, obviously the federal

783
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 3: trial would be pushed off. But Luigi Mangioni's lawyers are

784
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 3: going to say, hey, we need a repri here. We

785
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: can't come out of state court and go right into

786
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 3: federal court. Right in my opinion, although state courts aren't

787
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 3: beholden to federal courts or a lesser court, necessarily, the

788
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: state case, if all things go as planned, will come first.

789
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 3: The federal case will come later.

790
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: Hmm. I wonder.

791
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 3: I doubt any of them are going this summer, By

792
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 3: the way.

793
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 5: I just don't really see the point now.

794
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: At this point, I always believe the federal case was

795
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: because the New York State doesn't have to listen, this

796
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: is my conspiracy mind right, New York State doesn't have

797
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: the death penalty, so and they wanted to kill him.

798
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 4: I do.

799
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 3: I know that, and it's a big part of it.

800
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so at this point it's off the table.

801
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: Death penalty is not going to happen unless it gets appealed.

802
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: And you know, down the line they say, Okay, yeah,

803
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 2: we want to we want to have the death penalty.

804
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: But I just don't really see the point that Okay,

805
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: at this point.

806
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 5: That's just my opinion.

807
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I think everybody should be focused at this point,

808
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 3: from a pro state case point on the state murder charge,

809
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 3: not necessarily Pennsylvanian. Hey, they could all get their bite

810
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 3: at the apple here, but focus first on the New

811
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 3: York murder charges.

812
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 5: Well, we will be standing by and Jared, as always,

813
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 5: we want to thank you so much for joining us.

814
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 5: You bring such clarity and insight into all of the

815
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 5: questions that we stack up for you like squirrels.

816
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 3: Well, thank you. I learned from all of you so.

817
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 5: Very sweet and listen. Anyone who wants more Jared should

818
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 5: follow him on social media. He is at Jarrett Farentino

819
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 5: on Instagram and get ready to pre order the upcoming

820
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 5: book he wrote. It is Mother's Murders and Motivation. It's

821
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 5: out Spring twenty twenty six and I am camp We're

822
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 5: all excited to read it. It's going to be good.

823
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 5: I'll see myself. Yes, till next time, Jared, Thanks again,

824
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 5: Thanks and you yeah, stick around. We have a lot

825
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 5: more coming up, including Savannah Guthrie's Mother. True Grime Tonight.

826
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 5: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We are

827
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 5: talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm

828
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 5: so lucky to be here with Buddy Movin and producer

829
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 5: Taha and Sam and Adam in the control room and listen,

830
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 5: they are there. They're ready to pick up the phone.

831
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 5: If you want to call us live, We're at eight

832
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 5: to eight, three to one Crime, or you can always

833
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 5: get with us on our socials. We are at True

834
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 5: Crimes Night's show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crimes

835
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 5: Night on Facebook. And also if you missed any part

836
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 5: of the show, you can always catch the podcast. So

837
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 5: later in the show, we're going to be talking about

838
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 5: the Alexander brothers their trial, is entering its second week,

839
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 5: and they have also made an appearance in the Epstein Files.

840
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 5: So we'll get to that, but for now, body talk

841
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 5: to us about Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother.

842
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Savannah Guthrie's mother. Savannah Guthrie is the She's

843
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: one of the co hosts on the Today Show. She's

844
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: very well known. Ye, her mother. Her name is Nancy Guthrie.

845
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: She's eighty four years old, and she was reported missing

846
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: yesterday near her home in Tucson, Arizona. She was last

847
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: seen the evening of January thirty first at her home,

848
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: and her family reported her missing after she didn't go

849
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: to church the next morning. Authorities have quickly treated the

850
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: case as suspicious due to Nancy's limited mobility and need

851
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 2: for critical daily medication, launching a multi agency search including drones.

852
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: You know, there's ground crews out there, the FBI involved,

853
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: and US Customs and Border Protection. Pemac County Sheriff. Just

854
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: before going live tonight, Pma County Sheriff told CBS News

855
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 2: that they believe Savannah Guthrie's mom, Nancy again was abducted

856
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: while she was sleeping. Oh my gosh, yeah, I mean,

857
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: this is like scary stuff.

858
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 5: Again.

859
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: They confirmed her disappearance as being investigated as a possible

860
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 2: abduction and that the home has been processed as a

861
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: crime scene. Sergeant David's divers noted that there are some

862
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 2: suspicious circumstances and am using quotes air quotes that you

863
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 2: can't see some suspicious circumstances and the sheriff. Sheriff Nanos

864
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 2: said she couldn't walk fifty yards by herself. There's dog

865
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 2: teams out there, you know, there's drones. This is a desert,

866
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: you know, down there in Tucson, and so there's not

867
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: a lot of tree canopy, so you know, the drones

868
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: are going to be very effective if at all, you know,

869
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: hopefully they find something that will help them find her.

870
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: There's helicopters that have been deployed, dog teams. Authorities are

871
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 2: combing over hours of surveillance video and asking neighbors to

872
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: review any footage that they've got right and you know,

873
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 2: even in their backyards for any kind of potential leads.

874
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: Nancy does require daily medication and that it could be

875
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: fatal if it's not taken within twenty four hours of

876
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: her disappearance.

877
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 5: Scary stuff. Her daughter, Savannah. This is so sad.

878
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: So Savannah returned to the Today Show just on January

879
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: twenty sixth after she had vocal court surgery, and she

880
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 2: released a statement thanking the public and law enforcement, and

881
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: she said, right now, our focus remains on the safer

882
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: term of our dear mom.

883
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 4: So she just got back to work. Yeah, after she

884
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 4: just got back to her right, probably going to have to,

885
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 4: I would imagine to deal with some of.

886
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 5: This, right, And people who watched the Today's Show, Stephanie Leidecker,

887
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 5: for one, you know, like a religion, you know, she

888
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 5: would know Nancy got Thrie just from appearances. Yeah, happy

889
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 5: birthday mom and all of that.

890
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: And wow, a neighbor of Nancy, Uh, the woman has

891
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 2: gone missing, Jeff Lemie. He said, it's a very quiet neighborhood.

892
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 2: This is highly unusual and we are very concerned. She

893
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 2: lived kind of up in the foothills of Tucson, which

894
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: is kind of like a really beautiful area. I don't

895
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: know if you've ever been to Tucson. It's very Pueblo.

896
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 2: It's very it's gorgeous, Okay, And these foothills are stunning, stunning,

897
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful neighborhood. You know, Savannah has spoken publicly

898
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: about her mom's resilience and integrity, calling her a truth

899
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: teller and a sparkling beauty of a soul. And for

900
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 2: those who are attuned to this, she's a white female.

901
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: She's approximately five feet five inches tall, around one hundred

902
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: and fifty pounds, with brown hair and blue eyes. Her

903
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: clothing at the time of disappearance is unknown again because

904
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: she was in you know, she was sleepers at home.

905
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 2: She's sleeping, but she does have full cognitive function but

906
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 2: very limited mobility. Law enforcement has asked the public to

907
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 2: report any sightings. Please google her name Nancy Guthrie so

908
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: you can see a photo of her. Report any sightings

909
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: to the Pima County Sheriff's Office at five two zero

910
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: three five two four nine zero zero. And I know

911
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: I speak from all of us at True Crime Tonight

912
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 2: that we are hoping for her safe return.

913
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 4: I agreed.

914
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 2: If you're just tuning in, we were just talking about

915
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 2: the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. She is Savannah Guthrie's mother

916
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 2: from the Dada Show. It's a very mysterious disappearance. But

917
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 2: we're going to switch topics at this moment right now,

918
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 2: and Courtney is going to tell us about a murderer.

919
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 5: Courtney, Yeah, yeah, so this actually happened. This murder happened

920
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 5: twenty five years ago, but is back in the spotlight

921
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 5: because today there was a premiere of Playing with Fire

922
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 5: and that's on the show People Magazine investigates. And this

923
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 5: case is one I had vaguely heard of, but the

924
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 5: details I had forgotten them. So Terry King was murdered brutally,

925
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 5: and his then twelve and thirteen year old sons, Alex

926
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 5: and Derek King were convicted of the murder twelve and thirteen.

927
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 5: The case drew national attention. It was really unusual circumstances

928
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 5: and also involved a local man named Ricky Chavis. So,

929
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 5: and this is a very rare trial that there was

930
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 5: both miners and an adult tried for the same crimes.

931
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've never heard of this one.

932
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, it rung a vague bell and then I said,

933
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 5: oh yeah, so here, let me let me.

934
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to be I'm gonna be in the audience,

935
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 2: and you're okay.

936
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 5: Okay, let's do it.

937
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 4: Story times.

938
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 5: So, h Terry King was a single father and he

939
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 5: was in Canton, Mint Florida, and he was not of

940
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 5: a lot of means. He was struggling to raise his

941
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 5: sons again, twelve and thirteen year old Alex and Derek,

942
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 5: after separating from their mother, a woman named Janet French,

943
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 5: and he had a hard time providing a stable home.

944
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 5: He worked minimum age jobs and the victim Terry King,

945
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 5: also is managing narcolepsy, which made steady work very difficult.

946
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 2: And narcilepsies when you just fall asleep, right, you just

947
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: that's right, immediately out of nowhere, just like kind of

948
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 2: pass out, right, you just fall asleep.

949
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 5: Correct, So that would limit a lot of jobs, right.

950
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 5: The issues you can't do if you're driving driving, Yeah, okay.

951
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 5: So when Terry King's sons were just five and six

952
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 5: years old, they were placed in a group home and

953
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 5: later they were separated into foster families. So Derek King,

954
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 5: who was one year older, he was unhappy with He

955
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 5: was placed with a wealthy foster family, but he was

956
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 5: unhappy there and the younger son, Alex, returned early to

957
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 5: live with his father. When Derek, who had been staying

958
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 5: with the wealthy family, returned back to his dad seven

959
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 5: years later, So around the time of the murders. He

960
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 5: experienced a huge culture shop. For example, Terry King didn't

961
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 5: have a lot of money, and that meant he didn't

962
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 5: have a working TV. Importantly, and sadly enter a local

963
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 5: man named Ricky Chavis. He was a handyman and a

964
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:07,479
Speaker 5: convicted pedophile. And yeah, and he'd befriended the father, Terry King,

965
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 5: and often cared for the boys as well. So this

966
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 5: Ricky Chavez, it really to me seems like he was

967
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 5: the manipulative mastermind. He's set this tragedy in motion.

968
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 2: Well, if he's a convicted pedophile, he's obviously got some

969
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 2: manipulation and grooming tactics, you know, tactics under his belt.

970
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 4: Right, that's exactly right, thirteen year olds, So they're not

971
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 4: right moragically thinking in that way.

972
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 5: So okay, that's right. So Chavis secretly convinced the King boys, hey,

973
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 5: you can come live with me if anything were to

974
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 5: say happen to your father. And he would also take

975
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 5: often take them to his house so they could play

976
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 5: video games and watch TV instead of going to school.

977
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:51,720
Speaker 5: And he's doing this twelve and thirteen year old boys.

978
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 5: We haven't had the most stable relationship.

979
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't have working TV. This is everything to

980
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 2: a little boys rate video That's right. They get to

981
00:56:57,920 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 2: go to this guy's house and play video games. Is

982
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 2: that you crazy? That's the best thing ever, right, So

983
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 2: of course I g ask you what's going to happen?

984
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 2: I already see it, but continue.

985
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:07,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

986
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 5: So in November of two thousand and one, firefighters responded.

987
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 5: There was a blaze at the King home. They found

988
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 5: the victim, Terry King, only forty years old. He was

989
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 5: not dead from the fire. He was instead dead of

990
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 5: blunt force trauma. There was blood spatter on the walls,

991
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 5: and there wasum an aluminum baseball bat nearby. The boys

992
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 5: were not there. The following day, this Ricky Chavez, who

993
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 5: is the pedophile. He brought the two sons, Derek and Alex,

994
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 5: to the Sheriff's office and from there. Initially, the boys

995
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 5: confessed in meticulous detail to beating their father and setting

996
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 5: the fire to cover it, and this was after they

997
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 5: said that their father threatened to punish them for running away. However,

998
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 5: these boys did later recant it and then accused Ricky

999
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 5: Chavez of killing Terry King, their father, and forcibly taking

1000
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 5: them to his house. Alex King, who was the younger,

1001
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 5: the twelve year old, also claimed he had a sexual

1002
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 5: the wording strange air of sexual relationship, which would only

1003
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 5: be you know, sexual abuse. He was a twelve year

1004
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 5: old boy at the hands of Ricky Chavez. Ultimately, the

1005
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 5: two boys, Alex and Derek. They pleaded guilty to third

1006
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 5: degree murder and arson and received about a decade in

1007
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 5: juvenile's attention. Chavez was acquitted of the murder, kidnapping, and

1008
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 5: child molestation, but convicted of being an accessory and false

1009
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 5: imprisonment and received a thirty year prison sentence.

1010
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 2: An accessory in false imprisonment.

1011
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, so he was found not guilty of murder, kidnapping,

1012
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 5: and the child molestation, but was found guilty of accessory

1013
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 5: and false imprisonment. So I think that, you know.

1014
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: Without taking them to his house, that's.

1015
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 5: Right, and being aware of what happened in the arson

1016
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 5: is how I understand that, Okay. And then this sad

1017
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 5: story has an equally sad ending. So after serving the sentences,

1018
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,919
Speaker 5: the brothers they tried to stay close, but Alex King

1019
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 5: the youngest he died of a drug overdose in twenty

1020
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 5: twenty four, and then the older boy again only thirteen,

1021
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 5: when all of this happened Derek King. He was arrested

1022
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 5: just in June of last year in Florida on felony

1023
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 5: sexual assault charges. Oh no, the generational trauma.

1024
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, very good.

1025
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 5: And then you know Derek King, the oldest son. He

1026
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 5: just said, reflecting on his father, please forgive me. But buddy,

1027
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 5: like you said, both the generational abuse and also the

1028
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 5: drug abuse, neither of them are surprising at all.

1029
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 2: No, not at all.

1030
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 4: They've had this traumatic upbringing and all of these things

1031
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 4: that they dealt with.

1032
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 2: They were separated from their family for seven years, yes,

1033
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 2: and each other and each other. I mean that's a

1034
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 2: big deal, right. I don't know where the mother fits

1035
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 2: into any of this, but let's set that aside for

1036
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: the moment. Yep, But that's an issue, right. Mom's not

1037
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 2: around her. Dad's raising them. He's obviously struggling. They leave

1038
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: for seven years, and one is raised in privilege. It

1039
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 2: sounds like the other one. I'm not sure. But they

1040
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 2: come back to dad's house after seven years. They're twelve

1041
01:00:57,840 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 2: and thirteen, is that right?

1042
01:00:58,920 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 5: Twelve yeteen?

1043
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 4: Correct?

1044
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 5: That's right.

1045
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 2: I mean that's the prime age that you were playing

1046
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 2: video games and watch watching TV. But dad can't afford

1047
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 2: any this, and these are just little kids get groomed

1048
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 2: by this jerk, Ricky Ricky Chavis.

1049
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean he's the in my exactly.

1050
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 2: What they want, video games, attention, money, you know, candy.

1051
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 5: Things, don't still go to school, come to.

1052
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 2: My school, come to my house and play Mario Brothers.

1053
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 5: Who wouldn't do that at twelve years old?

1054
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 4: Right? I still don't. I can't follow why he would

1055
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 4: be acquitted of all of the charts, like they.

1056
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 2: Must not have had definitive I don't know anything about

1057
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 2: this case, but this is a new definitive proof.

1058
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 5: I actually I am interested to watch the Playing with

1059
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 5: Fire episode of the People Magazine investigates because I also

1060
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 5: it's just really scratching the service, do we know? I

1061
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 5: bet I was going to find it one second because

1062
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 5: I would really like to see this. Yeah, I would too,

1063
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 5: because it's very hard for me, knowing just the facts

1064
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 5: that I've shared with you, to understand how this guy Travis,

1065
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 5: you know, like you said, it probably just the physical

1066
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 5: evidence wasn't.

1067
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 2: There isn't there right, and they there was reasonable doubt enough,

1068
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 2: but there was there was the you know, obviously enough

1069
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 2: to convict him of being accessory and false imprisonment. So

1070
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 2: they must have believed the boys that he took them

1071
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 2: from the home and forcibly, you know, so that he

1072
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: could stay with them. Oh, it's so crazy.

1073
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 4: It is crazy. And and for those who want to

1074
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 4: watch it, I see it is. You can stream it

1075
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 4: on Max HBO. Yeah, and it airs on the Investigation

1076
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 4: Discovery i D channel. So perfect.

1077
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 2: Oh of course I have that every connoissewer has exact exactly.

1078
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 5: So listen, stick around because coming up we're going to

1079
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 5: get updates on the Alexander brothers trial, how they fall

1080
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 5: into the Ebstein files. Keep it here. True Crime Tonight,

1081
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 5: We're talking true crime all the time.

1082
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 2: Welcome back to your crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1083
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm body moving.

1084
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 5: I have this.

1085
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 2: I'm having a sneezing fit, so you have to excuse

1086
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 2: me if I just break out the songs.

1087
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're very cute on the receiving end of the sneezes.

1088
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 5: They're very elect petite and adorable, but annoying when you know,

1089
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 5: on the producing end.

1090
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, but if I break out in song,

1091
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 2: it's you know, the season the sneezing I'm here with

1092
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and of course producer Taha Howes. Don't forget

1093
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 2: if you miss any part of tonight's show, you can

1094
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 2: always catch a podcast. We also want to hear from you.

1095
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 2: To give us a call at eight thirty one Crime,

1096
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:55,919
Speaker 2: or get with us on our socials at True Crime

1097
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 2: Tonight Show on TikTok and Instagram, or just do a

1098
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 2: little search on Facebook for True Crime Tonight. But let's

1099
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 2: go right to a talk back. Let's get right into it.

1100
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 9: Oh my god, you guys, this is Ava in Los Angeles. Anyway,

1101
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 9: new Epstein drop. It looks like the brothers tall or

1102
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 9: in the third one is also mentioned in the Epstein Files.

1103
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 9: They would get girls, younger girls to get to get

1104
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 9: to Epstein's house.

1105
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 3: That's they lord it.

1106
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 9: They lured them, not these old men. Please please look

1107
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 9: into this. I am losing my mind.

1108
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 2: Ava, You're not the only one. And I love the

1109
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 2: sense of urgency in your voice.

1110
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 5: By the way, because.

1111
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 2: I'm feeling what you're saying. But I have a different perspective.

1112
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 2: I yes, of course they're They're in the Epstein files.

1113
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 2: They've been mentioned in the Epstein Files. But I'm concerned

1114
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna tell you why.

1115
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 5: All right.

1116
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 2: So the Alexander brothers, you know, they they're on trial

1117
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 2: right now. They're mentioned in the Epstein files. And I'm

1118
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 2: concerned because the Epstein files and in the parts of

1119
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 2: the Epstein files that they're mentioned, and I don't think

1120
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 2: should have been released by the DJ because this is

1121
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 2: a pending investigation, right hu, it could be prejudicial, it

1122
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 2: could be an issue anyway, put a pin in that, Courtney,

1123
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 2: what do you got.

1124
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 5: I think you are absolutely right. Body brought this up

1125
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 5: and during the break, I said, oh my goodness, but

1126
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 5: listen to catch you up. These Alexander brothers there are

1127
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 5: currently in a Manhattan federal sex trafficking trial. We're in

1128
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 5: the second week. And they are tal or in an

1129
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 5: Alan Alexander. Their former high end, very wealthy real estate

1130
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 5: brokers in New York, Miami. They traveled and smoothed everywhere.

1131
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 5: So these guys, these three are facing a twelve federal

1132
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 5: indictment and that includes conspiracy to commit sex trafficking. And

1133
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 5: as the talkback said, the Epstein files mention them. There

1134
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 5: are millions of documents in the Epstein files, and here

1135
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 5: we have these brothers and Body makes such a salient

1136
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 5: point about the ongoing investigation.

1137
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,919
Speaker 2: Right, so, the Alexander's names have you know, they're as

1138
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 2: part of the recent release. You know, this is the

1139
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 2: recent release succeeds three million related documents, and their names

1140
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 2: are in them. The most serious one involved the brothers

1141
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 2: appearing in the FBI National Threat Operations Center logs, which

1142
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 2: are internal summaries of tips that come in from members

1143
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 2: of the public. The NTOC logs, so the FBI explicitly

1144
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:50,400
Speaker 2: states that these tips are not verified at the time

1145
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 2: that they're recorded. You know, so you call a line

1146
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 2: or you submit something online on a website and it

1147
01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 2: gets aggregate aggregated into this, uh, the National Threat Operations Center,

1148
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 2: So anybody can say whatever they want, right, they're they're

1149
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 2: just tips that come in. So in August of twenty

1150
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 2: twenty five, while the Alexander brothers were detained at Brooklyn's

1151
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 2: Metropolitan Detention Center awaiting their trial, an FBI agent assigned

1152
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 2: to a Child Exploitation in Human Trafficking task force requested

1153
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 2: the report in an internal email, writing, we need to

1154
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 2: interview regarding the Alexander brothers allegations and the allegations described

1155
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 2: in that FBI log It came from a woman who

1156
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 2: said she was sexually assaulted by Jeffrey Epstein when she

1157
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 2: was only sixteen ohez.

1158
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 5: She said.

1159
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 2: She said she attended parties. She went to eight different

1160
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: parties at Jeffrey Epstein's New York mansion while she was modeling.

1161
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 2: She alleges that one of the defendants in the Alexander

1162
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 2: brother trial, defendant Oran, one of the brothers or An Alexander,

1163
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 2: raped her best friend, and that Tall Alexander raped a

1164
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 2: fourteen year old girl whose name was redacted. The document

1165
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,560
Speaker 2: also refers to An Allen A L. L. E. N

1166
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:23,799
Speaker 2: and the defendant Oran, with later notes indicating that Allen

1167
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:27,680
Speaker 2: was likely misspelling of Alan Alexander.

1168
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:29,719
Speaker 4: Okay, right, so.

1169
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 2: Here's the impact, right, Courtney, this is kind of yeah,

1170
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 2: it's huge. The thing is so during the ongoing federal

1171
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,799
Speaker 2: sex trafficking trial of those brothers Tall Oran in Alan

1172
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 2: in the Southern District of New York, defense lawyers have

1173
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 2: asked for a mistrial now because of this. After these

1174
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 2: jeff drin Jeffrey Epstein related documents have publicly named Alexander brothers.

1175
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 2: The judge in the case, you know that's presiding over

1176
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 2: this case her name is Valerie Kproni. She didn't grant

1177
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 2: the mistrial, but she openly questioned the prosecutors about how

1178
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:08,839
Speaker 2: this mistake could have occurred.

1179
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 5: I cannot believe like the depth and breadth of how

1180
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 5: big this mistake is and how much it just opens

1181
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 5: the door. So yes, as she said, the judge didn't

1182
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 5: grant the mistrial, but you know, cut to let's just

1183
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 5: make believe that the Alexander brothers are found guilty. Oh,

1184
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 5: I mean appeal a rama appeal appeal yeah, right, right,

1185
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 5: because this is so incendiary.

1186
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 2: Right, And she she said to that, she said to

1187
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 2: the prosecutors, you know, she's questioning them about how this

1188
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 2: could have mistake could have happened. And she goes government

1189
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 2: really like, this is such an agregious mistake. But thankfully

1190
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 2: she is not granted a mistrial, she's not dismissed the case,

1191
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 2: despite the defense arguments that the document release harms the

1192
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 2: brother's right to affair trial. I mean, it's incredibly Listen

1193
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 2: the jury, you know, they're they're told not to look

1194
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 2: at the case that they're you know, serving jury duty

1195
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:14,439
Speaker 2: four obviously, right, but what's preventing them from looking at

1196
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 2: the Epstein files, nothing nothing, absolutely, so oh let me

1197
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 2: go look, Oh my gosh, this is real.

1198
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

1199
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 2: I'm on that case right now. The jury's like, oh

1200
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 2: my god, these guys are in the Epstein files and

1201
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 2: now they're accused of this.

1202
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 4: It's it's very you naturally assume they're guilty, like a clear.

1203
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 5: Right, I mean yeah. And the allegations as you mentioned,

1204
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 5: I mean right, you know, rape of a fourteen year

1205
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 5: old girl and sexually, I mean it's right, it's really

1206
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 5: high impact.

1207
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 4: So it's and again these are like they haven't none

1208
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:50,880
Speaker 4: of this has actually been proven. These, like you said

1209
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 4: early on, these are just tips, right, so there's no

1210
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 4: definitive answer to whether or not this actually happened.

1211
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 2: Well, you're right, taha. But we do know that somebody

1212
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 2: from the FBI possibly took that tip very seriously, because

1213
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:13,639
Speaker 2: while they were waiting for the trial to happen, an

1214
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:18,640
Speaker 2: FBI agent assigned to a Child Exploitation and Human Trafficking

1215
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 2: task force requested that report in an email and the

1216
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,600
Speaker 2: FBI saying we need to interview regarding these allegations.

1217
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 4: So the tip was.

1218
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 2: Credible enough they took it serious. They took it seriously.

1219
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 2: But we don't know the outcome.

1220
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,560
Speaker 4: Sure, and not that I would I shouldn't. Allegedly, I

1221
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 4: wouldn't put anything past what we've been hearing from other

1222
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 4: people about the Alexander brothers. But now I'm getting a

1223
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 4: clear understanding as to why this is so awful that

1224
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 4: this is happening, and then why this information came out. Okay,

1225
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 4: thank you for clarifying it.

1226
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that level of detail is what really would

1227
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 5: solidify it in my mind. In does something to pay

1228
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 5: attention to. If again, the FBI is taking it seriously

1229
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 5: as someone who reads the news or you know, just

1230
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 5: is is consuming what's in front of you on your

1231
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:17,520
Speaker 5: way to the Alexander trial, that would weigh in my mind,

1232
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 5: speaking of we have a trial update, there's so much

1233
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:23,719
Speaker 5: on Epstein, but we are going to hold.

1234
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 4: I mean, we've been trying to hold for step, but

1235
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:27,639
Speaker 4: we can hold one more day. I think we can

1236
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 4: hold to dig into some of this, so we'll give

1237
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 4: it a beat. But what are some of the general

1238
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:36,879
Speaker 4: things that that you were going to talk about, Courtney

1239
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 4: or any of the.

1240
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, what's happening this? Yeah, So in the trial

1241
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:47,799
Speaker 5: of the Alexander Brothers, which again is continuing jurors continue

1242
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 5: to see more emails, photos and videos and have heard

1243
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 5: testimony from alleged victims, and this was referenced in opening

1244
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:04,799
Speaker 5: statements from the prosecution. The prosecutors showed a victim of

1245
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 5: one of the defendants, or In Alexander, from two thousand

1246
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 5: and nine, and in it he is having sex with

1247
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,920
Speaker 5: a seventeen year old victim who is going by the

1248
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 5: pseudonym Amelia, and prosecutors alleged she was drugged in rape

1249
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 5: and that she is a minor. She is seventeen years

1250
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 5: old when it happened, and the jurors they watched it silently,

1251
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 5: they had headphones, some were covering their faces, understandably, and

1252
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 5: the defendant or In Alexander, this was also entered into court.

1253
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 5: He shared the video with a friend w which and

1254
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 5: we've heard this information. Yeah, so it seems like it

1255
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 5: is a pattern on there and so far.

1256
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:55,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, I was just going to say, seeing the video, like,

1257
01:13:56,320 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously you know that's a strategy, but like

1258
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 4: to me, like that case closed, Like I mean, you

1259
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 4: see this minor and it's all videotaped, Like I don't

1260
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 4: even know how you defend that in any way, shape

1261
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 4: or form like, right, maybe this is a question for

1262
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 4: we should have saved I should have asked Jared. But

1263
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 4: if she's a minor and it's videotaped, isn't that isn't

1264
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:22,800
Speaker 4: that a done deal? Right there?

1265
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,680
Speaker 2: I mean you would think, right, I mean, but you

1266
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 2: still have to book with the process, right, Well?

1267
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 5: True, yes, And also keep in mind that it's also

1268
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 5: it's conspiracy or some of the charges relate to conspiracy

1269
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 5: to commit sex trafficking and sex trafficking by force, fraud

1270
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:47,720
Speaker 5: or coercion, which which is different from sexual assault on

1271
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 5: a minor.

1272
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 4: Very good point, you know, So it's it's it depends.

1273
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's not straightforward, is like just rape, or

1274
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:01,479
Speaker 2: it's it's complicated with all these with the sex sex

1275
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 2: trafficking charges.

1276
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 5: And whatnot, right, yeah, okay, that's exactly right. And then

1277
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 5: just these are other details in court which we share

1278
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 5: for informational purposes. It feels really gratuitous and over the

1279
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 5: top because what is being presented by the prosecution is

1280
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 5: really hard to take in. Other emails that were introduced

1281
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 5: include one of the brothers, tal Alexander. He forwarded some

1282
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 5: flight details for a victim with the derogatory note quote

1283
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,800
Speaker 5: see below, these cheap hookers coming to the Hamptons this weekend.

1284
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 5: And a victim, Maya Miller, testified that in twenty fourteen,

1285
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:51,120
Speaker 5: Tal Alexander invited her and a friend from Nevada to

1286
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,679
Speaker 5: a Hampton's house for a long weekend. Okay, and keep

1287
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 5: in mind, these guys have access to the most sort

1288
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 5: of extraordinary properties that your mind can imagine.

1289
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 4: Sure.

1290
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 5: Well, this victim, Maya Miller, said she became uncomfortable and

1291
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 5: tried to leave, but that Tal Alexander tackled her onto

1292
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 5: a bed, asking quote again, is this how you thanked

1293
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,599
Speaker 5: me for inviting you to a beautiful home?

1294
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:20,880
Speaker 3: Oh? God?

1295
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 4: Wow?

1296
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 5: So but these are the details, like you know, we'll

1297
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:29,679
Speaker 5: see how this plays in. Is the prosecution laying out

1298
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 5: the coercion, the all of that? So these details are

1299
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 5: important to this case, Maya Miller. The victim went on

1300
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 5: to testify that Tal then cornered her in a bedroom,

1301
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 5: that he raped her, and during cross examination, the defense

1302
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:53,000
Speaker 5: lawyers highlighted this makes me crazy. The defense lawyers highlighted

1303
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 5: post incident behavior, including the victim updating her Facebook with

1304
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:04,799
Speaker 5: photos from the night and victim Maya Miller exchanging friendly

1305
01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 5: text with defendant tal Alexander and commenting on his Instagram.

1306
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 2: Of course that's what you do, That's what men do

1307
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 2: in public. I'm fine, I'm not I didn't make a

1308
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 2: mistake and going on this trip to this home and

1309
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 2: get lured. I'm you know what I mean. This is

1310
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:25,679
Speaker 2: what we and not just women, men do it too, right, victims,

1311
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,679
Speaker 2: Men can be victims. I shouldn't be so short sighted.

1312
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 2: But I mean, this is like the typical behavior of

1313
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 2: a victim. Everything's fine, nothing, you know what I mean, Like,

1314
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:38,880
Speaker 2: I had a great time. You have to show a

1315
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 2: public this is infuriating, like you want it to be true. Yeah,

1316
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,200
Speaker 2: you want it so bad to be true, Like because

1317
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 2: you blame yourself internally, right, you're like, this is my fault.

1318
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have done it. Of course, publicly you're going

1319
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 2: to be like, oh, everything's great, you.

1320
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:57,600
Speaker 5: Know, you know, come on, and I'm not drawing a

1321
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,880
Speaker 5: direct parallel at all. And excuse me for forgetting the

1322
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 5: woman's name. But the woman has who has come out

1323
01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:08,600
Speaker 5: previously and is again in the news of describing in

1324
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 5: graphic detail what Matt Lower did to her. She speaks

1325
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 5: about afterwards just wanting exactly what you're talking about Body

1326
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 5: just this didn't happen. That's right, because that's what it's denied.

1327
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 5: Human minds often you do, you can handle trust yourself that.

1328
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:29,760
Speaker 4: Way, right, right, Yeah, that's probably the way to Oh

1329
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:33,879
Speaker 4: that's infuriat It really is the whole thing. It's just frightening.

1330
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 4: And I'm following this case continually. But what stands out

1331
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,759
Speaker 4: is what we said earlier. These guys aren't the most

1332
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 4: I guess the defendants are saying they're not the best

1333
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:45,000
Speaker 4: guys in the world, but they're not.

1334
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:47,520
Speaker 10: They're not for the a hole, you know, for the

1335
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:48,879
Speaker 10: award exactly.

1336
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 4: But anyway, well, well.

1337
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:53,400
Speaker 2: Stick around, we have more to dig into. We're wrapping

1338
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 2: things up with your talkbacks because you always have something

1339
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 2: to say and we love to hear your thoughts. Keep

1340
01:18:58,439 --> 01:18:59,640
Speaker 2: it rare, true crime to make.

1341
01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 5: Welcome back to True Crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. I'm

1342
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 5: Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with Body Movin and producer Taha,

1343
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 5: and we are recalibrating a little bit from the Alexander

1344
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 5: Brothers excuse me, last segment, so and we hope you

1345
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:30,760
Speaker 5: are recalibrating as well, because that was a little bit

1346
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 5: triggering Yeah. As always, if you miss the show, you

1347
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 5: can catch the podcast. And right now we'd love to

1348
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:38,760
Speaker 5: hear from you. Let's go to a talk back.

1349
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 7: Hey, hey all, you guys are always asking if the

1350
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 7: content you're talking about is too heavy, and it is

1351
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 7: too much. It is extremely heavy, especially you know, I'm

1352
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 7: a mother of two. My children are my everything, and

1353
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 7: it's very heavy on my heart to hear these stories,

1354
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 7: but it is so necessary. Please keep talking about it,

1355
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:05,759
Speaker 7: keep sharing it, because as a society, it is time

1356
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 7: for some serious change. This might be an unpopular opinion,

1357
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:14,639
Speaker 7: but I do not believe child abusers, child molesters. Anyone

1358
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 7: who commits any crime against a child I do not

1359
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 7: think can be rehabilitated, and they need to stand prison.

1360
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:23,439
Speaker 7: It'd be interesting to maybe talk to Jared about how

1361
01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:27,799
Speaker 7: you get scenting to laws changed of y'all.

1362
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:33,680
Speaker 5: You know Courtney, Okay, I was going to say that

1363
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:37,600
Speaker 5: was very well timed. Thank you guys for choosing that

1364
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 5: talk back, because it was a good one to hear

1365
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:42,600
Speaker 5: right now. You know, as I said, we were recalibrating.

1366
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 5: This stuff is so heavy, it's heavy on our hearts.

1367
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 5: But that was a great perspective and we know it

1368
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:53,800
Speaker 5: to be true that without talking about these things, they

1369
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:58,680
Speaker 5: go unnoticed and are hidden, and honestly, with more visibility

1370
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 5: becomes more conversations between parents and their children and more

1371
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:08,760
Speaker 5: of just an understanding of what is happening and therefore

1372
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:13,800
Speaker 5: prevention wherever possible ideally. So thank you for that.

1373
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,000
Speaker 2: Thank you for that talkback, because it is literally exactly

1374
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 2: what we needed to hear at literally the exact moment,

1375
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:23,799
Speaker 2: right Courtney, I mean during break. I hope it's okay,

1376
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:26,720
Speaker 2: but you know, you got kind of emotional, and you know,

1377
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:30,640
Speaker 2: it's hard telling these stories. And I don't mean like

1378
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:33,479
Speaker 2: stories as in a fable. I mean like this is

1379
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 2: somebody's story. These that we're you know, telling somebody's real

1380
01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:44,000
Speaker 2: life that is changed forever because of these grotesque abusers.

1381
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:49,160
Speaker 2: And I agree with the talkback, don't. I don't believe

1382
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 2: in my heart of hearts that people who harm vulnerable people,

1383
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:57,240
Speaker 2: children or elderly, you know, I don't think they can

1384
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 2: be rehabilitated. I just don't. That's I really don't. I

1385
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:07,000
Speaker 2: truly don't. And maybe there's maybe there's you know, anecdotal evidence,

1386
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 2: maybe your uncle, you know, maybe he got rehabilitated and

1387
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:14,480
Speaker 2: he's good now, but I just feel like it's anecdotal.

1388
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:19,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, i'd be I'd love to, actually, i'd love to

1389
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 5: have I'd love to know. I'd love to I will actually,

1390
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 5: I will take this on. I would love to find

1391
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 5: I don't even know what kind of expert I'm looking for,

1392
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:31,439
Speaker 5: but has delicately been doing this for a living for

1393
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:33,760
Speaker 5: a while. So I'm going to find someone who can

1394
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:36,000
Speaker 5: educate uscinnimism rates.

1395
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:37,880
Speaker 2: It would be a good place to start, Like, how

1396
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:40,559
Speaker 2: many people that are convicted at one point in their

1397
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 2: life of harming vulnerable population such as children, recommit those

1398
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:49,519
Speaker 2: crimes after they get out?

1399
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 5: How what's the percentage that's right? Okay, that might be

1400
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 5: a good place to start. I don't know. Yeah, no,

1401
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 5: I totally.

1402
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 4: It's an expert in that area. I would love to

1403
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:02,719
Speaker 4: have join us. We can get some clarity and understand

1404
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:08,160
Speaker 4: because I yeah, that's a controversial feeling about it, but

1405
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,519
Speaker 4: it is it. There might be well, I mean, I'm

1406
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:13,680
Speaker 4: sure there are people out there that feel, like, you know,

1407
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 4: maybe there is a way to rehabilitate or change, But

1408
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know.

1409
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:24,320
Speaker 2: Listen, I'm open, like I'm not one hundred percent convinced

1410
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 2: of anything. Really, Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely open to

1411
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 2: being wrong about that, and you know, I think i'd

1412
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 2: like to live in a world where I am wrong

1413
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:35,320
Speaker 2: about that actually, but I just don't know that I am.

1414
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:36,759
Speaker 5: But I'm open definitely.

1415
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 4: And whether or not I would even want someone still

1416
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:43,960
Speaker 4: around a minor that has been is another question itself. Like, yeah,

1417
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 4: they're better now, I don't know if I still want

1418
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:48,839
Speaker 4: you around my right scene relative.

1419
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:52,680
Speaker 5: So you know, like that wonderful woman just said her

1420
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:57,679
Speaker 5: children are her everything, and you know, if all everything's

1421
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 5: firing on, like sort of the natural way of things,

1422
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,720
Speaker 5: your children are your everything. As mammals, it is just

1423
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:12,840
Speaker 5: it is instinctual, you know, So Taha to your point, Yeah,

1424
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 5: I'd love an expert. I'd love some facts, as you say, yeah, body,

1425
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,680
Speaker 5: some stats. But let's see where from should we not

1426
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:20,680
Speaker 5: go to another talk back?

1427
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's see what else we got going on.

1428
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:24,240
Speaker 5: Hie, ladies in Taha.

1429
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 8: This is Liz from Washington, just calling to give you

1430
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 8: an update on the West Memphis three. Sometime last year,

1431
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 8: Damien Eggles won his court case. Are hearing to have

1432
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 8: the DNA from the ligatures that were tying the boys

1433
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 8: together sent off to a LAMB.

1434
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:38,720
Speaker 5: They are hoping to get any.

1435
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:41,120
Speaker 8: Results here very very soon. It is supposed to be

1436
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 8: January or February, and hopefully those results will have the

1437
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:46,600
Speaker 8: DNA of the true killer and it will exonerate the

1438
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:47,360
Speaker 8: three defendants.

1439
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 3: Here's the hope in.

1440
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:52,000
Speaker 2: So, this is very interesting, and this goes back to

1441
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:54,680
Speaker 2: how I was talking about the Dixie Chicks. Do you

1442
01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 2: guys remember that?

1443
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah you did?

1444
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, ended at that point because we were running out

1445
01:24:58,960 --> 01:24:59,240
Speaker 4: of time.

1446
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:04,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I really do want to dig back into

1447
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 5: because it really is an entirely.

1448
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 2: So said Natalie, means they are now called the Chicks.

1449
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 2: They changed their names from the Dixie Chicks to the Chicks,

1450
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,439
Speaker 2: so let's just refer to them as the chicks.

1451
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:16,680
Speaker 4: Right.

1452
01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:24,320
Speaker 2: So, she was pretty inflammatory. She was basically blaming Terry Hobbs,

1453
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:27,639
Speaker 2: who is the stepfather of one of the children who

1454
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:32,839
Speaker 2: passed away, and so much so, like very publicly, okay,

1455
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 2: that he sued her for defamation. Oh wow, and guess

1456
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 2: what that did? Opened up depositions, right and during this

1457
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:45,200
Speaker 2: process they were able to question him about anything they wanted,

1458
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:47,760
Speaker 2: including the night of the murders, and he was really

1459
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 2: inconsistent and they got a cigarette but I think from him. Okay,

1460
01:25:54,040 --> 01:25:57,519
Speaker 2: they tested it against those hairs that were found in

1461
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 2: the ligature and it was like mitochondrial DNA. I think

1462
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 2: this is memory. So please sure somebody you know, listen,

1463
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,720
Speaker 2: research on yourself. But this is what I remember. Okay,

1464
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:14,440
Speaker 2: it came back to it possibly being Terry Hobbs. Yeah,

1465
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:18,479
Speaker 2: so this this Damien Eccles, as I said, you know,

1466
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:20,759
Speaker 2: has been very vocal in trying to get the case

1467
01:26:21,479 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 2: you know, retried somehow or reopened. But the State of

1468
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,560
Speaker 2: Arkansas is like, we're good. We convicted the guys. You know,

1469
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:31,240
Speaker 2: they they served eighteen the case is closed. They're saving face.

1470
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:35,360
Speaker 2: And Damien has been fighting very publicly and very hard

1471
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 2: to get that testing fully done and they did. According

1472
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 2: you know, again our talk back is very well informed

1473
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:45,639
Speaker 2: and she's totally right. So we're gonna see what happens. Yeah,

1474
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 2: thank you, Liz, Yes.

1475
01:26:47,479 --> 01:26:50,360
Speaker 4: That was talking Liz side Notebody that you did such

1476
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:53,679
Speaker 4: a great job with that. Even before the show, Adam

1477
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:56,479
Speaker 4: was saying I listened to that yesterday with Body and

1478
01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:00,639
Speaker 4: he was like just going crazy about how well Actually,

1479
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 4: Sam said, how well you told that broke it down,

1480
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:05,200
Speaker 4: and I didn't even into it.

1481
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:07,840
Speaker 2: I couldn't even get into all of it either, Like

1482
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 2: I only have what twelve minutes or something, and there's

1483
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 2: no way to tell the story in twelve minutes and

1484
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:16,240
Speaker 2: do it in a really like thorough way. So I

1485
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:18,840
Speaker 2: do appreciate the talkbacks coming in that are able to

1486
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:20,439
Speaker 2: fill in some of the gaps that I wasn't able

1487
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 2: to get to. So I really really do appreciate that

1488
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:22,599
Speaker 2: talk back.

1489
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:23,759
Speaker 5: And by the way, I love.

1490
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:27,120
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Who was being complimentary, Adam or Sam?

1491
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:28,920
Speaker 4: That was? I think?

1492
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 2: Okay, I screw you, Adam, Thank you Sam?

1493
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:38,000
Speaker 5: Who gets the stars? Sam Boom?

1494
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:40,960
Speaker 4: Well, well, our listeners liked it because I actually think

1495
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 4: we have another talk back about West Memphis three that

1496
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:45,720
Speaker 4: we can go what okay.

1497
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:49,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, I just heard you mentioning the podcast with Billy

1498
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:53,080
Speaker 11: Jensen and Alexis Lincoln. Billy Jensen actually left the podcast

1499
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:54,679
Speaker 11: as well as the one who was doing with Paul

1500
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:57,960
Speaker 11: Holds after a whole bunch of special assault allegations that

1501
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 11: came about in about twenty twenty two twenty three, So

1502
01:28:01,240 --> 01:28:03,599
Speaker 11: I'm track where he is these days, but it seems

1503
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:05,760
Speaker 11: like there was some truth to the allegations.

1504
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I listen, I didn't even know about this.

1505
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 2: Tah Tah texted me, He's like, oh my god, body

1506
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:14,120
Speaker 2: do you know? And I was like what, I had

1507
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 2: no idea. So but I do remember this time frame

1508
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 2: because Billy, listen, do you guys want to do a

1509
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 2: little gossip?

1510
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1511
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:25,559
Speaker 4: Please? Oh that's the best part, all.

1512
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 2: Right, Billy. He he made a couple posts on his

1513
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:37,200
Speaker 2: like private Facebook that he was going into like a

1514
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:42,680
Speaker 2: like not necessarily rehabit like alcoholics anonymous Okay, And at

1515
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 2: the time I wasn't paying attention to all the hubbub,

1516
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:49,600
Speaker 2: you know, or whatever surrounding it. But I do remember

1517
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:53,960
Speaker 2: that that he was going for treatment, and I know

1518
01:28:54,040 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 2: he disappeared for a couple of months and came back

1519
01:28:56,160 --> 01:29:01,880
Speaker 2: and it seemed like he was, uh clean, you know

1520
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:04,800
Speaker 2: what I mean. But I'm I'm it was literally the

1521
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:07,720
Speaker 2: same time because after you texted me and had the look,

1522
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:09,439
Speaker 2: I was like, what are you? Because I had no

1523
01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 2: idea that there was these assault charges. Something apparently happened

1524
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 2: at crime con that I was yeah, well not no,

1525
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:21,320
Speaker 2: not like during the convention, but like after, you know,

1526
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 2: like this has nothing to do with it, just that

1527
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 2: time frame. But yeah, I didn't know anything about I

1528
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:30,680
Speaker 2: never would have said anything. And that was Lisk, by

1529
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:37,320
Speaker 2: the way, not yeah, because he was on that podcast

1530
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 2: with a Lexus, who I also really enjoyed. Please don't

1531
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 2: saything bad about her. I'll be very upset. But yeah,

1532
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:46,920
Speaker 2: there's apparently some kind of sexual assault charges but I

1533
01:29:47,280 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 2: don't know the details or not. Sexual assault charges, allegations allegation, Yeah,

1534
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:58,639
Speaker 2: but I don't know about it. I wish it listened.

1535
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:03,880
Speaker 2: I hope it's not true, but if it is, that's all.

1536
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,040
Speaker 2: Thanks for keeping me informed. There's too much for me

1537
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:11,040
Speaker 2: to pay attention to, right, But that's a big one,

1538
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:16,000
Speaker 2: and I'm glad. I'm glad I'm informed now, So thank you.

1539
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:16,760
Speaker 2: You have a good one.

1540
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, here's a good one. Here's one that I think

1541
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:20,200
Speaker 4: will make you smile.

1542
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:25,200
Speaker 12: Okay, Hi, this is Steve from Materie, Louisiana, and I'm

1543
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:29,280
Speaker 12: listening to your replay Christmas replay with Books to Prisons,

1544
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:31,400
Speaker 12: and I just got to say, I think it's a

1545
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 12: beautiful thing. A rough paraphrase of Christian scripture, Jesus says,

1546
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:39,080
Speaker 12: when you visit those in prison.

1547
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:39,559
Speaker 4: You visit me.

1548
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 12: Welcoming to my Kingdom, and so it's without a doubt

1549
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:45,559
Speaker 12: a wonderful thing.

1550
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:46,439
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1551
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:54,360
Speaker 2: Okay, that got me, sir, that got me. I don't

1552
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:57,160
Speaker 2: know what to say. I'm emotional.

1553
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 4: We're all going, you're giving kills.

1554
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:02,879
Speaker 5: There's a scripture.

1555
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:04,280
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's in I think it's

1556
01:31:04,280 --> 01:31:06,439
Speaker 2: in the Book of Matthew. I don't know for sure.

1557
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:09,720
Speaker 2: I'm not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination,

1558
01:31:10,160 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 2: but I was raised very religious, and I do remember

1559
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:15,559
Speaker 2: there's like some kind of statement like I was in

1560
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:20,640
Speaker 2: prison and you visited me, and because listen, Jesus was

1561
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:24,520
Speaker 2: a rebel, right like he was. Jesus was an activist.

1562
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 2: Jesus was a guy you know that, uh, in the

1563
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:35,439
Speaker 2: most peaceful way possible, obviously, right, And when I was

1564
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:37,679
Speaker 2: in prison and you came to visit me, something along

1565
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 2: those lines.

1566
01:31:38,240 --> 01:31:39,520
Speaker 5: And it does imply.

1567
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:44,599
Speaker 2: That caring for the marginalized, including people that are in

1568
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:50,960
Speaker 2: prison obviously incarcerated, is equivalent to ministering directly to Jesus, right,

1569
01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:54,960
Speaker 2: And so it's it's a very very important part of

1570
01:31:56,439 --> 01:32:01,519
Speaker 2: ministry in prison. So that was a very actually talk back.

1571
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:05,040
Speaker 4: It made me emotions, it really was. And for those

1572
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 4: who who may not know what we're talking about. We

1573
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:13,880
Speaker 4: rebroadcast an episode that was really really popular over the

1574
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:16,559
Speaker 4: holiday where we had Michelle Dillon who is with an

1575
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:20,280
Speaker 4: organization called Books to Prisoners and it's a nonprofit that

1576
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:23,879
Speaker 4: sends free books to incarcerated people all over the country.

1577
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:26,599
Speaker 4: But I have to say, when we.

1578
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:30,640
Speaker 10: All did that episode, it just hit us all so

1579
01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:33,280
Speaker 10: hard because it was just such a it's such a

1580
01:32:33,320 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 10: simple gesture, but it just means so much to some

1581
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:40,160
Speaker 10: of the inmates and it just just some of the struggles.

1582
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 4: That they go through and the books that they aren't allowed.

1583
01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 4: I found that whole segment so fascinating and everything about it.

1584
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 4: So yeah, but.

1585
01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:54,599
Speaker 5: It's so beautiful and how just reading can open your

1586
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:58,160
Speaker 5: mind and literally I was just it doesn't matter. I

1587
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:00,599
Speaker 5: was talking to someone about this recently and they were

1588
01:33:00,600 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 5: just saying, you know, it can allow you to literally

1589
01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:07,400
Speaker 5: envision a different life for yourself. That we were not

1590
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 5: talking about prisoners, but it so relates and so goes

1591
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 5: to what you're saying of just it can literally be

1592
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:18,439
Speaker 5: life changing to imagine different circumstances and the what if.

1593
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:21,640
Speaker 2: So that is well, and it's it is it is

1594
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:24,600
Speaker 2: character building too, because I mean, so many people in

1595
01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:28,200
Speaker 2: prison are there. You know, maybe they didn't have a

1596
01:33:28,240 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 2: great education, or you know, they're they're struggling really hard

1597
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:35,200
Speaker 2: in life. And the only way they can really get

1598
01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:37,679
Speaker 2: that peanut butter and jelly sandwich is if they rob somebody,

1599
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:41,880
Speaker 2: let's say, right, and bringing books to prisoners, you know,

1600
01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:44,839
Speaker 2: gives them an education and gives them the self confidence

1601
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 2: they need. So when they do get out, they're not

1602
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:49,880
Speaker 2: put back in right, because now they're arn't with an

1603
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:53,519
Speaker 2: education to go ahead and you know, get that office

1604
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:56,719
Speaker 2: job or you know what, or be the auto mechanic

1605
01:33:56,800 --> 01:33:57,479
Speaker 2: of their dreams.

1606
01:33:57,560 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 5: Right, whatever and whatever.

1607
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 2: Whatever they want, right exactly, whatever they want their second

1608
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:04,800
Speaker 2: chance at life, and I one and believe in those

1609
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:07,559
Speaker 2: second chances unless they've they've heard a child.

1610
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 5: By the way, we all have our lines. Well listen,

1611
01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:18,080
Speaker 5: this is this has been a night you guys or

1612
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:20,040
Speaker 5: a cat. Do not ask.

1613
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 4: With them?

1614
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 5: Well listen, the big nights we had emotional highs lows,

1615
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:32,880
Speaker 5: we had great talkbacks. Thank you very much, and so

1616
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:36,040
Speaker 5: join us tomorrow. We will be getting into the fallout

1617
01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:39,720
Speaker 5: from the Jeffrey Epstein files. There is a lot to

1618
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:42,720
Speaker 5: get into and also update you on the latest with

1619
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:46,519
Speaker 5: the Ohio double murder case. Prosecutors alleged that that jealous

1620
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:50,400
Speaker 5: X stalked his former wife before killing her and her husband.

1621
01:34:51,080 --> 01:35:02,759
Speaker 5: Well listen till then, you know, be safe and be good.