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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside

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Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller.

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Speaker 2: Every business day we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros,

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Speaker 2: and Bloomberg experts, along with essential market moven news.

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Speaker 1: Find the Bloomberg Markets podcast called Apple Podcasts or wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts, and at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get right to it. Nicholas Bonsak Joints and

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Speaker 1: he's the CEO and president of Strateigas Securities. Now in

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Speaker 1: your bio page, Nick, it says fifty two Vanderbilt Avenue.

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Speaker 1: Is that where your offices are?

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Speaker 3: That's where we are.

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Speaker 1: Is that the new building? No, No, that's not the

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Speaker 1: new build.

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Speaker 3: That's one.

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Speaker 1: That's one Vanderbilt. Okay. I was just wondering if anybody's

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Speaker 1: been in there.

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Speaker 3: Six Its one block and much fancier away.

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Speaker 1: It looks amazing, but it is is it filled? You know?

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Speaker 3: I don't think the capacity is a hunt Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, Matt, this is one Vanderbilt is righted by Grand Central,

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Speaker 1: massive new office tower, probably one of the newest, biggest

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Speaker 1: ones in the city's I've walked by it. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I was just wondering AnyWho, All right, Nick, what are

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Speaker 1: we doing here with this market? I just put up

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Speaker 1: the SPX and kind of looked at on a trailing

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Speaker 1: twelve month spasis rolling down three point two percent. What's

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Speaker 1: the big thing here? I don't get it.

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Speaker 2: You're just looking at the last twelve months, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because if you just look at twenty twenty two, it

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Speaker 2: was a lot lot Oh.

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Speaker 1: I know that I live through that, But if you

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Speaker 1: just got to put in perspective, it's like, eh, we've

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Speaker 1: kind of come back a little bit off those lows

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Speaker 1: here from October November pretty impressively. What do you guys

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Speaker 1: telling your clients these days?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think when we look at the landscape, it

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Speaker 4: seems like these building blocks for a recession and for

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Speaker 4: a contracting economy are almost impossible to avoid. And so

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Speaker 4: when you think back over the length of time these

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Speaker 4: bear markets that are around global de leveragings, they're going

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Speaker 4: to post very very strong counter trend rallies, and it's

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Speaker 4: just our sense that we're in one of those right now.

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Speaker 4: And moreover, the market's gotten very very narrow from the top,

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Speaker 4: so it's Fang and friends that are sort of leading

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Speaker 4: us here.

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Speaker 2: So what's the I mean, what drives us to a

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Speaker 2: recession ultimately? Is it credit crunch? Is it dropping capex?

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Speaker 2: I mean, because we have three and a half percent

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Speaker 2: on employment still and yeah, you know we see companies

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Speaker 2: beating expectations.

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Speaker 1: Uh did you see earnings?

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Speaker 2: I mean, are are companies putting out decent EPs growth or.

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Speaker 1: Actually they're declining, but they're beating expectations. So it's a

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Speaker 1: revenue the story margin downstory.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think when you look at

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Speaker 4: the margin contraction and went to your question where the

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Speaker 4: market goes, it's earnings and interest rates on one side,

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Speaker 4: and liquidity and labor on the other side.

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Speaker 3: And liquidity and labor are winning.

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Speaker 4: You know, I would I would make the point as

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Speaker 4: as as Paul, did you know with respect to the

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Speaker 4: earnings the earnings results, they're okay, but you know, so

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Speaker 4: far those expectations have continued to come way in and

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Speaker 4: your earnings are expected to be flat?

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Speaker 1: Yere on here, all right, talk to us about Matt

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Speaker 1: likes this flat would be great?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 2: Flat Wouldlast week we were talking to Phil Orlando last

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Speaker 2: week and things S and P earnings this year going

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Speaker 2: to be one hundred and ninety dollars compared to like

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Speaker 2: twenty last year.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's not good. Now we need to up year.

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Speaker 3: It's last year. It's the like the immaculate deleveraging exactly.

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Speaker 1: All right, Matt likes this ETF business. You've got to

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Speaker 1: strategius macro thematic opportunities. ETF symbol is sa MT. What

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Speaker 1: are you guys doing in that ETF.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So when you look at thematic investing, and particularly

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Speaker 4: thematic ETFs, they are almost always monoligned. They come out

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Speaker 4: with one big idea which requires the investor to be

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Speaker 4: right on the time and right on the theme. And

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Speaker 4: the nature of our work is thematic and moreover, it's

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Speaker 4: this idea of thematic rotation. So we want to be

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Speaker 4: able to have the flexibility to see the themes that

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Speaker 4: are gathering momentum in the marketplace and rotate into them

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Speaker 4: and have some exposure to them for a period of

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Speaker 4: time and then move along.

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Speaker 3: As the business cycle does.

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Speaker 4: And so this thematic ETF really will have exposures three

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Speaker 4: or four or five themes at a time and then

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Speaker 4: move on as they evolve.

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Speaker 1: So what kind of themes are we talking about?

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Speaker 4: So right now, our biases are a little bit more defensive,

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Speaker 4: so we actually have recession protection is an important theme.

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Speaker 4: Cash flow risk detocrats is another important theme. And then

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Speaker 4: a third, which is a little off pieced from the

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Speaker 4: business cycles specifically, is deglobalization.

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Speaker 1: Is de globalization really a thing? I grew up when

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Speaker 1: we're all about globalization. I mean, if you didn't do

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Speaker 1: a stint in Tokyo and you didn't do a stint

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Speaker 1: in London, you had no career on Wall Street?

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Speaker 3: Correct, I mean, is that a thing?

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Speaker 1: So globals? I mean, really, how much can you really deglobalize?

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Speaker 1: I mean, Apple is still going to be making a

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Speaker 1: ton of stuff in China.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I have I had the same view, perhaps you did,

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Speaker 4: or at least as is suggested by the nature of

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Speaker 4: your question, before Russia invaded Ukraine and so before that,

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Speaker 4: I thought deglobalization was.

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Speaker 3: Some sort of an academic talking point.

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Speaker 4: But now you have supply chain, now you have sort

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Speaker 4: of reshoring, Now you have sort of this BiPOL this

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Speaker 4: polarization where you've got, you know, new groups of countries

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Speaker 4: that are banding together, maybe not outwardly to be against

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Speaker 4: the United States, but ostensibly could be against the United States.

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Speaker 4: And so companies and countries are going to have to

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Speaker 4: pull together their resources in a very different way than

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Speaker 4: we did, you know for the eighty year after the

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Speaker 4: Second World War.

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Speaker 2: It'll be interesting because uh, you know, it's friend shoring

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Speaker 2: more than on shoring, right, because we're not bringing that's

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Speaker 2: a production back to just the US. We're also putting

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Speaker 2: it in Mexico and Canada, and it seems like that's

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Speaker 2: going to work. You have another ETF, right, the strateigous

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Speaker 2: Global Policy Opportunities ETF.

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Speaker 4: What's that about, same idea with thematic rotation, but far

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Speaker 4: less dependence, almost no dependence on the business cycle and

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Speaker 4: all dependence on the political cycle.

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Speaker 3: So as the winds have change blowing Washington and we've.

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Speaker 4: Got an all democratic uh you know, Congress and White House,

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Speaker 4: or the opposite measure and Republican, we will move the

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Speaker 4: themes around.

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Speaker 3: To be offensive and defensive.

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Speaker 4: Companies vote with their money for better or for worse,

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Speaker 4: and we view that and I believe we've been able

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Speaker 4: to shown dead over time that helps their earnings grow.

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Speaker 1: So what what made you get into this?

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Speaker 2: I mean, before you started Strategius, you were at some

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Speaker 2: of the most important businesses on the street Morgan Stanley

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Speaker 2: is SI legendary stuff. Right, then you go in with

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Speaker 2: Jason to start Fritiguis what got you into the ETF

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Speaker 2: side of things?

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Speaker 4: Well, Macro, which is our business, is pretty low barrier

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Speaker 4: to entry. If you've got enough of you go in

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Speaker 4: an email system, you can be in the business. So

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Speaker 4: we decided we would try to find the investable conclusion

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Speaker 4: with every research note we put out, and that ultimately

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Speaker 4: became stock baskets. And then when you look at those

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Speaker 4: stock baskets over time, they basically fall into three time categories.

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Speaker 4: You've got really short dated stuff that nobody can invest in,

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Speaker 4: you're so close to it it's impossible. But then you've

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Speaker 4: got intermediate term stuff and long term stuff, and those

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Speaker 4: things are very interesting for portfolio construction. So we got

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Speaker 4: into the stock basket business. That became themes and then

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Speaker 4: clients started asking, hey, this would be really great if

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Speaker 4: we could put it into a managed account, and then

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Speaker 4: you evolve into ETFs.

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Speaker 1: So what are the assets and management for your ETFs? Generally, so, we.

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Speaker 4: Have just over one hundred million in the complex we

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Speaker 4: lost we launched them late last year, and we managed

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Speaker 4: about eight hundred million in our asset manager.

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Speaker 1: And you guys are staying with thematic investing? Is that

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Speaker 1: kind of where you guys think you add vague?

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Speaker 3: That's where we're comfortable.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of people who do a lot of things,

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Speaker 4: and we think we're comfortable with thematic.

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Speaker 2: And I mean you're macro masters, right, That's why people

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Speaker 2: go to strtigis what do you think about You've already

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Speaker 2: given us your view on recession.

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Speaker 1: How does the FED.

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Speaker 2: React to that? They're likely going to raise next week?

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Speaker 2: I think that's a consensus overwhelmingly. Do they raise again

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Speaker 2: after that? Are they going to cut in twenty twenty three?

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Speaker 2: These are the questions we ask everyone, So what's your take?

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Speaker 3: Listen. We do think they're going to go again.

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Speaker 4: We think the labor market gives them more than sufficient

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Speaker 4: cover to do so. Our view is that the Powell

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Speaker 4: and the FED are very worried about what happened in

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Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies and they want to make sure that

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Speaker 4: they arrest inflation expectations back to an acceptable level. They'll

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Speaker 4: probably pause thereafter. My suspicion is that they've done a

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Speaker 4: lot of damage to the economy that we haven't even

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Speaker 4: caught up with. Yet we'll probably cutting next year at

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Speaker 4: some point. But remember, a cut is not the same

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Speaker 4: optimism that pivot, you know, provided us. I mean a

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Speaker 4: cut is because something is broken, and that would be

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Speaker 4: when the recession comes hits us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just can't you know, I hear the recession call.

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Speaker 1: I just with unemployment at three and a half percent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, listen, labor and liquidity, right, So unemployment

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Speaker 4: is not giving you the signposts for a recession.

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Speaker 2: It's also difficult for US equity knuckleheads to understand long

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Speaker 2: invariable lags. We just don't get that. I don't understand

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Speaker 2: what happens after next week.

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Speaker 1: I never have.

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Speaker 3: I mean, most investors say, hey, the market's up, so

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Speaker 3: what's wrong?

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Speaker 1: Cokette? A good quarter? Isn't that all I need to know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's why we need people like this, because

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Speaker 2: they actually look ahead, and we're not very good at.

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Speaker 1: How concerned are you about the consumer out there? Because

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Speaker 1: I mean, admittedly, Matt and I don't we're kind of

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Speaker 1: stuck here in the metro New York area. We don't

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Speaker 1: get to see the real world. I don't think the

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Speaker 1: consumer's doing out there.

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Speaker 4: They are increasingly using credit as well, so transfer payments,

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Speaker 4: stop jobs are okay.

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Speaker 3: Savings dobbies are blowing through.

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Speaker 4: Their savings and don't listen, remember the money illusion when

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Speaker 4: this is all over. Inflation makes things look okay or

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Speaker 4: look better, and they're not. They're deteriorating on the inside.

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Speaker 1: I tell you I've had enough of this inflation thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm you know, well, I think you know what.

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Speaker 2: We have had inflation paired with much higher bank balances

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Speaker 2: than we're used to because we all got free cash

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Speaker 2: passed out to us. And now that you know, we're

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Speaker 2: done saving money, so we're working off the bank balances.

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Speaker 2: Plus we're putting much more on credit cards. It's just

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Speaker 2: going to hit us. We're in a great mood and

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Speaker 2: everything looks great now yeap, until it hits us, and

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Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, next time we'll bring better news.

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Speaker 1: All right, Nicholas, thanks so much for joining us. Nicholas Bonsaks,

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Speaker 1: CEO and President of Strateigist Securities joining us live here

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Speaker 1: in our Bloomberg Interactive Brooker Studio, so we appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Making the walk up from Midtown a couple of blocks away.

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Speaker 5: There you're listening to the team Ken's Are Live program

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Speaker 5: Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,

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Speaker 5: the Hard Radio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or

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Speaker 5: listen on demand wherever you get your podcast.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk crypto, and my old buddy Matt

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Speaker 2: Siegel is here in the studio.

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Speaker 1: Used to be he used to work here at Bloomberg.

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Speaker 2: Then he went to get a real job on Wall Street,

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Speaker 2: and now he's over at van k where he runs

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Speaker 2: there Crypto Research MATC. Great to have you back in

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Speaker 2: the studio with us. Go ahead and put that microphone

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Speaker 2: right there in front of your face. And before we

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Speaker 2: get to the price action and what you think about

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Speaker 2: regulation and everything. I noticed that two new groups have

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Speaker 2: joined the I guess the competition to try and become

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Speaker 2: the executors of the bankrupt Celsius business.

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Speaker 1: One of them is.

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Speaker 2: Errington Capital and a whole group of bidders under the

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Speaker 2: name Fahrenheit I guess, And another one is Gemini. And you, guys,

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Speaker 2: and you already work closely with the Winklev crypto business.

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Speaker 2: Why do you want to get into that into that race?

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Speaker 2: Why do you think it would be helpful to help

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Speaker 2: to unwind Celsius?

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Speaker 6: Well, the bigger picture here, Matt, is that every crypto

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Speaker 6: lender has gone bankrupt and there are multiple bankruptcy cases

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Speaker 6: right now to try to sort out these assets and

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Speaker 6: maximize the return for customers and token holders.

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Speaker 1: So we just saw last week that.

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Speaker 6: The bankruptcy judge in the Voyager case allowed that sale

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Speaker 6: to Binance to proceed. So all the leverage has been

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Speaker 6: brought out of this ecosystem with the bankruptcy of all

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Speaker 6: these lenders, and now it's for the bankruptcy courts to

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Speaker 6: clean up the mess and see who can maximize the

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Speaker 6: return for these unsecured creditors. So I can confirm, you know,

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Speaker 6: the court documents yesterday revealed that two additional bidders have

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Speaker 6: joined as qualified bidders to administer these assets and try

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Speaker 6: to maximize the return for token holders. Vanik has teamed

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Speaker 6: with Gemini on one of those bids, and we think,

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Speaker 6: you know, the details will be clear tomorrow at the auction,

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Speaker 6: but look forward to putting forward the case that we

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Speaker 6: have the best way to administer these assets in a

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Speaker 6: regulatory compliant way to maximize the return for the customers.

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Speaker 2: Is the lending business Is the crypto lending business dead?

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Speaker 2: Just here in the US or is it worldwide? For example,

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Speaker 2: Nexso I talked to Anthony Trenschev quite a bit, and

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Speaker 2: right now I think he might be in Dubai because

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Speaker 2: he's not welcome in his country where there are lawsuits pending.

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Speaker 2: But that business still exists, right Is it one of

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Speaker 2: the last Is it going to die out as well?

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Speaker 2: Is there no good business case for crypto lending.

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Speaker 6: The business? The crypto lending business is dead in the

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Speaker 6: US for retail customers, so Nexo is now out of

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Speaker 6: that business. Everyone is out of that business. It's available

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Speaker 6: for institutional counter but there are few large balance sheets

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Speaker 6: participating in the space. And so one consequence of the

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Speaker 6: FTX bankruptcy is that an increasing amount of cryptoactivity has

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Speaker 6: moved on chain into self custody wallets and DeFi. That

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Speaker 6: is largely an x US phenomenon. So the short answer

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Speaker 6: to your question is, yes, it's dead in the US.

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Speaker 6: Has it moved overseas? And that's what we're seeing, you know,

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Speaker 6: with so many of these announcements. It's on the tape

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Speaker 6: today that Gemini is looking to set up an off

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Speaker 6: short derivatives exchange Coinbase, talking about that last week. There's

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Speaker 6: no other choice when the regulator here is presenting you know,

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Speaker 6: impossible paths.

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Speaker 1: Why is the crypto lending space dead? And what does

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Speaker 1: that say about the market overall or the regulators?

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Speaker 6: Well, it's the centralized lending space.

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Speaker 1: Why am I spending any attention on crypto space when

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Speaker 1: I can't even finance it? They can't get it financed?

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Speaker 6: Well, you can in DeFi, but there you know, there

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Speaker 6: needs to be larger balance sheets to step up and

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Speaker 6: fill the void that the collapse of these centralized lenders

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Speaker 6: has led to. And that you know, that's a fair criticism.

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Speaker 6: This is a bear asset, so it's a little more

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Speaker 6: difficult to set up a lend and borrow.

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Speaker 1: So, as Matt mentioned, talk to us about the regulatory

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Speaker 1: aspect here, because just in your notes you say the

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Speaker 1: Biden White House is trying to kill crypto? How are

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Speaker 1: they doing it? And at one point like so, why

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Speaker 1: would they want to do that? Don't we want to

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Speaker 1: lead that business?

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Speaker 6: Well, there's definitely mixed messages from the White House, right,

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Speaker 6: So on the one hand they like to say that

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Speaker 6: there's no value behind this tech, right, that it's a ponzi.

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Speaker 6: And on the other hand, the White House devoted more

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Speaker 6: than ten pages in their recent Economic outlook to talking

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Speaker 6: about crypto. So there's a bit of schizophrenia here as

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Speaker 6: to how much power this technology has. And I think

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Speaker 6: that's something that the policymakers are coming to terms with.

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Speaker 6: The Instincts of this White House are to micromanage and

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Speaker 6: control and crypto is you know, takes different mechanisms to

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Speaker 6: do that. We haven't sorted out what the rules are.

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Speaker 6: Regulators are asking for things that the ecosystem participants can't provide.

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Speaker 6: They're getting slapped with lawsuits and enforcement actions. Why not

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Speaker 6: just geofence US customers and move offshore? And that's what's

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Speaker 6: going to happen. And if you ask why it matters,

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Speaker 6: it's because the D dollarization theme is something that's real.

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Speaker 1: You know multiple what is that theme? The D dollarization theme?

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Speaker 1: Because I'm just going to speak for our audience.

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Speaker 6: It was on the View last week, Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: The View with like Woope Goldberg.

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Speaker 2: Yes, oh they're talking about it and then everyone's talking

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Speaker 2: about it. So what I mean is that the tokenization

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Speaker 2: story that you're talking about or or do you mean

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Speaker 2: a move away from FIAT or just a move away

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Speaker 2: from the green back a.

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Speaker 6: Move away from the green back right. So many of

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Speaker 6: US trading partners partners are objecting to our debt and

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Speaker 6: definite deficit position, and are objecting to our use of

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Speaker 6: funds in Russia on US social programs whatever it may be. Well,

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Speaker 6: I mean Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Russia, China each did

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Speaker 6: you know that even Japan is buying energy from Russia above.

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Speaker 1: The US set price cap?

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Speaker 6: Because have you ever been to Tokyo in August? It's

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Speaker 6: kind of hard to live without affordable air conditioning. So

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Speaker 6: the realities that you can't print energy, you can only

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Speaker 6: print FIAT. That is coming into stark understanding by our

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Speaker 6: trading partners who are selling treasuries and looking for neutral

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Speaker 6: third party assets. We saw today in the Ft Central

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Speaker 6: Bank gold purchases were up one hundred and fifty percent

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Speaker 6: last year to a record, So gold has played that

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Speaker 6: role for millennia, right, and we think bitcoin has a

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Speaker 6: role to play there as well.

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Speaker 2: So bitcoin moved up to over thirty thousand, has dropped

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Speaker 2: a little bit. I'm guessing people taking profit here, But

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Speaker 2: how come this asset? I mean, I guess you've already

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Speaker 2: answered that question. I was going to say, why do

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Speaker 2: people have faith even after the collapse of FTX and

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Speaker 2: now binance is under scrutiny. But you know it's going

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Speaker 2: to be difficult to deal if you can't trade it, right,

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Speaker 2: Where are Americans going to go to buy and sell bitcoin?

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Speaker 6: Well, there still are a handful of exchanges operating in the.

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Speaker 2: US, Armstrong even coinbase may consider moving out of the US.

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Speaker 6: That's right. So just an increasing amount of this activity

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Speaker 6: will take place overseas. It will take place in decentralized finance,

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Speaker 6: peer to peer, and you know the US government's going

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Speaker 6: to have to come to terms with that in some way.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating stuff. We're going to get you back in

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Speaker 1: here again.

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Speaker 2: You're no idea what's going I bought my first bitcoin

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Speaker 2: at let's see you down on fourteenth Street in Alphabet City,

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Speaker 2: Webster Hall at Webster Hall in the bar for six

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars. But that's perod that was twenty twelve. That's

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Speaker 2: peer to peer, all right, Matt.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us here. Matt Siegel, he's

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Speaker 1: had of digital assets research at ven K.

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Speaker 5: You're listening to the take Cat's Are Live program Blomberg

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Speaker 5: Markets weekdays at ten Am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

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Speaker 5: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.

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Speaker 5: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

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Speaker 5: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 1: Our next guest. We got to get to this guy,

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Speaker 1: Ed Price. He's a principled ergo non residents and your

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Speaker 1: fellow at NYU. We usual, we used to think of

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Speaker 1: as a reasonable guy, I mean, and we talked about

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Speaker 1: markets and stuff like that. Then I started seeing on

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Speaker 1: social media the dude was in Ukraine. I mean, ed,

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Speaker 1: there's a war there, my friend. You turn around. You

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Speaker 1: avoid those types of places.

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Speaker 7: Go.

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Speaker 1: What were you doing in Ukraine?

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Speaker 8: Tourism? Pool tourism, tourism, of course, yes, so just looking

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Speaker 8: around Kieve, spending some money. No, in all seriousness, it

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Speaker 8: was it was a personal trip. It was something that

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Speaker 8: I thought I had to do. Having out Yeah, I mean, look,

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Speaker 8: I've been on your show talking about Ukraine and it

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Speaker 8: seems a little bit like hotter unless I actually go

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Speaker 8: and see it for myself. So I met the Finance

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Speaker 8: Minister Sahe Machenko, I met other officials, I met some

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Speaker 8: others among the good guys, contingents.

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Speaker 1: So what are your takeaways because we haven't spoken to

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Speaker 1: anybody who's been in the country.

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Speaker 8: Right, So there's two things going on. One you come out,

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Speaker 8: it's obviously a war zone, right. You appear in this

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Speaker 8: kind of Soviet era train station. There are soldiers saying

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Speaker 8: goodbye to their wives, metal detectors, sambag's air raid shelters,

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Speaker 8: the whole kaboodle. But on the other hand, Ukraine is

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Speaker 8: making a very concerted effort to develop its economy in

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Speaker 8: the manner of a potential EU member state. What does

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Speaker 8: that mean. Well, they're being very open. They're very open

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Speaker 8: with me about the corruption problem, which is a legacy

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Speaker 8: of the USSR. They're being very open about the fact

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Speaker 8: that they're trying to trying to digitize things, and they're

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Speaker 8: being very open in particular about the fact that they

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Speaker 8: don't think they've got enough weapons. So it's kind of like, yeah,

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Speaker 8: it's like a big war. I certainly heard and saw

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Speaker 8: the sites and sounds of war, but it's also an

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Speaker 8: economy that's striving for function and striving for positive GDP changes.

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Speaker 2: So I think the main question from here is do

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Speaker 2: they have enough support from allies and does that support

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Speaker 2: hold right, because you're starting to see important political names

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Speaker 2: break away from the I stand with Ukraine narrative.

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Speaker 8: Right, it's a good observation, enough support for what And

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Speaker 8: I feel.

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Speaker 2: They're going to launch a counter offensive in spring, right, Yes,

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Speaker 2: it is a spring, so it's coming up.

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Speaker 8: Yes, I think it's imminent. From what I hear. Personal opinion,

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Speaker 8: I don't think they have been given enough to really

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Speaker 8: land a serious blow on the Russians. I think that

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Speaker 8: they can do some damage. The morale is high, their

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Speaker 8: special forces are excellent. They also have this kind of

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Speaker 8: weird open source method whereby you know, some dude with

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Speaker 8: a drone will meet someone else in a bar who

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Speaker 8: knows the artillery guy. You know you've heard about this.

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Speaker 8: But my opinion is that they don't. They haven't been

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Speaker 8: given enough to really kick the Russians out. But of

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Speaker 8: course if they do, you start getting into like gnari areas,

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Speaker 8: like crimea.

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Speaker 1: All right, so I guess my question is are they

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Speaker 1: not fascinated that you met with people in the finance

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Speaker 1: department in the sense of aren't they just trying to

437
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: survive every day? But it sounds like, yes, they're fighting

438
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: a war on one hand, but they're also trying to operate,

439
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,439
Speaker 1: keep on with business as usual and try to do

440
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 1: what's right for the economy, do what's right for the

441
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,360
Speaker 1: people and the vestments that need to be made there.

442
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: So is that, in fact, it's a good observation.

443
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 8: They're basically running a fifty percent budget deficit and all

444
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 8: of their fiscal capacity is going into fighting the war

445
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 8: on the one hand, but also this kind of legacy

446
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,479
Speaker 8: social spending that's again something from the USSR as was,

447
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 8: and the other fifty percent is coming in from international financing.

448
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 8: So they're very bullish, but they're also a little bit

449
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 8: nervous that if that drives up, they're going to have

450
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 8: to start making decisions that really look like extreme rationing

451
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 8: or indeed less spending in the army, albeit the spending

452
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 8: on the army's classified data. So I couldn't really get

453
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 8: to the bottom of that. But they need financing, They

454
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 8: need more financing.

455
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: Is there a point where you say, all right, we've

456
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 2: got to think about what happens after this, assuming that

457
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 2: Russia gets what it wants.

458
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 8: What would Russia getting what it wants be right?

459
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: I mean, a huge chunk of Ukraine beyond the chunk

460
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 2: they already have.

461
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's difficult. So I was trying to be friends

462
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 8: with these guys, and when I floated that, I was like,

463
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 8: so what do you think if maybe.

464
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 1: You know, is there a realistic view.

465
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's difficult, I mean the very emotive. The first

466
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 8: couple of times you asked the third layer. The idea is, well, actually,

467
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,959
Speaker 8: we can develop our economy regardless, and if we lose

468
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 8: some of that old Soviet style industry in the East,

469
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 8: if we lose access to some gas basins. We've done

470
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 8: the math and actually we can if we use, for example,

471
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 8: one percent of our agricultural land and devote that to

472
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 8: renewable energy, we can replace anything that Europe takes from

473
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 8: Russia in a combination of that and gas from Ukraine.

474
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 8: So once you scratch the surface, they really don't like it,

475
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 8: and I can see why, right, I mean I wouldn't

476
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,359
Speaker 8: like it. But there is a viable Ukraine in the

477
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 8: U and in NATO regardless.

478
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: So what is the timing on the EU and NATO

479
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 1: and maybe just greater you know, movement towards the west

480
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: for Ukraine. Where are we because it just seems like

481
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: the war is just obviously taking front and center everything

482
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: everybody's attention.

483
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 8: Yeah, look, the EU membership thing is a bit more

484
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 8: difficult than NATO. I think NATO could probably just you know,

485
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 8: decree that Ukraine was in with with greater ease, pretend.

486
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 8: Possibly it kind of is pretending right now, right kind

487
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 8: of is in NATO. But I mean the EU, I mean, look,

488
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 8: it needs things like a stable border, it needs full transparency,

489
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 8: it needs like commitment to whatever the equivalent of the

490
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 8: Growth Instability Pact is, and by their owners mission, the

491
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 8: Ukrainians are not quite there yet. This is the entire discussion.

492
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 8: So EU memberships are way away. I mean, my joke

493
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 8: with the Finance Minister was that maybe the UK and

494
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 8: Ukraine would join on the same day.

495
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: You know what, we go into a bar or restaurant

496
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: during your time there, the average person on the street,

497
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: how do they their lives in terms of you know, yeah,

498
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the feel, what's the vibe? Are we

499
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: gonna fight to the end, We're not gonna give up anything,

500
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 1: or we're getting tired or.

501
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 8: Hey, pull that pumped They are really pumped up. I

502
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 8: had a few drinkies with some Ukrainians that have been

503
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 8: at the front. It's it's taking its toll. Any war does.

504
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 8: But these people are pumped up and they want to

505
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 8: kick the Russians out.

506
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: In terms of what really happens, though, what I think

507
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: is interesting that we've seen a new global paradigm, paradigm

508
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: shake out of this. Right, So it seems like you're

509
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 2: getting Russia, China and to some extent India, and the

510
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: US is lonelier and lonelier, right. I mean, I guess

511
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: we're still in NATO and it's a little bit better

512
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: than it was when Trump was president, but who knows.

513
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 2: You know, if President Biden stays in and or if

514
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: Donald Trump stays out, you've got a totally new system

515
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 2: here in terms of the power. The panel agree with that, Well,

516
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: you think that China still dig into democracy in Western.

517
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: China is what it is, Russia is what it is.

518
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: India still buys their stuff, China's buying any Saudi Arabian

519
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: oil for the.

520
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I mean I would agree with Matt

521
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 8: not just because he's so much physically stronger than me,

522
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 8: just because I feel like that's the right take gotten things. Yeah,

523
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 8: this is this is a new paradigm. But you know

524
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 8: that the real fail I think was after the Second

525
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 8: World War, we were like, hey, everybody, like markets work

526
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 8: and just get involved in capitalism and it will make

527
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 8: you rich. But like democracy is an option, and that's

528
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 8: that's a bit of a fail, right. The US conquered Germany, Japan,

529
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 8: and the UK, but it was like the two like

530
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 8: I've said this before, like the two big naughty countries,

531
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 8: China and Russia. It was like, do whatever you want, right,

532
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 8: So I think that's that's the challenge facing.

533
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: Were you attend were you attempting at Brooklyn Accent?

534
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: I was trying what you want?

535
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 8: Do whatever you want?

536
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: So I guess in Ukraine where you were, I mean

537
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: what I guess the real question is for these people

538
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: is you know, it sounds like they are not going

539
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: to give up, that that's not in their discussion at

540
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: the moment, and that never So then that kind of

541
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: comes back to to the West and NATO and okay,

542
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: well how much are we going to how long are

543
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: we going to support them? And to what end?

544
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 3: You know?

545
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: So that's I guess where we're getting to it.

546
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: And by the way, Emmanuel Macron had this thing about

547
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: trying to get China to help negotiate people.

548
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 8: Right, I don't know what that was about.

549
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: What where has this guy?

550
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 8: I don't know what that was about. Yeah, Macron also

551
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 8: did the whole big long table thing with Putin if

552
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 8: you remember, right, and that was a bit that was

553
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 8: a bit of a wash out. Yeah. I can't get

554
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 8: inside his head. I don't know what he's doing. I

555
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 8: think maybe it's some sort of French diplomatic urge, you know,

556
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 8: to possible moonshot. Yeah, I don't know. But but the

557
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 8: going back to the Ukrainians, they are they are dead

558
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 8: serious about this. I'm in the maximalist camp. I think

559
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 8: we give them everything they want, and that's that's one

560
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 8: way of ending this thing quickly.

561
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: It's starting a new thing.

562
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 8: Well, but but I mean, like, I mean, dude, like,

563
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 8: is Putin really going to push the button? I mean

564
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 8: it's like Trump, right, We've got a bigger button. Like

565
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 8: I just I think it's bluster. I don't think he's

566
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 8: going to make it ask.

567
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: It seems to be on the table as fighter jets right.

568
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: To me, that's the game changer. And it doesn't appear

569
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: that the US or any of our Western allies are

570
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: there yet. I just hope that we're training pilots today

571
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: in anticipation of twelve months from now. If it's you need,

572
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: you know, get an air arm that we've got. This

573
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: guy's trained and we can just drop him and he's.

574
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 8: I imagine we're doing all sorts of things that give

575
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 8: us options. Again on the aircraft. I mean, I don't

576
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 8: know why we haven't given them like two or three

577
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 8: to kind of make a point, right, That's what we

578
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 8: did with the tanks, And so there's a difference between

579
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 8: the sort of material that would definitely make a dent

580
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 8: and the sort of material at a certain level that

581
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 8: will show that we're still in it. Right. But look,

582
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 8: I can see to both of you this thing is escalating.

583
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 8: It's like it looks like a stalemate equilibrium. But that's

584
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 8: because both sides are slowly edging up to a line.

585
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 8: And I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's very lowly likelihood, but

586
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 8: I wouldn't rule out putin using some sort of tactical

587
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 8: new because a pr scare tactic, right, like a mushroom

588
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 8: cloud on tap. I don't know, But look, the Ukrainy

589
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 8: is a dead series, all.

590
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: Right, ed Price, thanks for coming in, Thanks for making

591
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: it back. Safely at Price principal at Ergo. He just

592
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: spent some time in Ukraine, so we appreciate him coming

593
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: to our Bloomberg and Arcti Broker studio and sharing some

594
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: of the insight. There.

595
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 5: You're listening to the team Ken's are Live program Bloomberg

596
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 5: Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,

597
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 5: the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen

598
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 5: on demand wherever you get your podcasts.

599
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: Let's move over to the biotech space. This is a

600
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: space that is fascinating for investors because boy, you can

601
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: have some big, big hits and some big big misses

602
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: as well, and that's why I think a lot of

603
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: the hedge funds like doing work in the biotech space

604
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: and we always love speaking to folks in that space.

605
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: Lynn Kirkpatrick, she's the CEO of n Sis Biosciences. That's

606
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: a NASDAQ traded stock. N Yeah, I'm sorry, e N

607
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: is a Nancy sc is the ticker Linn. Thanks so

608
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: much for joining us here that I pronounced your bandies

609
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: name correctly and sise you certainly did, Okay for having

610
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: great tell us what you guys are doing over there

611
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: at insis what's your focus.

612
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 9: We are a clinical stage company trying to improve really

613
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 9: prescription drug safety. We're using our technology platforms to improve

614
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 9: the safety in the okoid space. We have technology to

615
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 9: reduce abuse and I believe unique to the industry. We

616
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 9: also have overdose protection.

617
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: So hang on, if I understand correctly, that means you're

618
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: trying to make an opioid that is less addictive and

619
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: less deadly.

620
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 9: I wouldn't say less addictive. Opioids are addictive, but as

621
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 9: you know, they've become liked by recreational drug users our products.

622
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 9: What we're trying to do is reduce that recreational abuse,

623
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 9: but also have something that's safe for prescribers and individuals

624
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 9: with pain and layered on top of reduction of individuals

625
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 9: being able to manipulate and abuse our products, we also

626
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 9: have overdose protection, so I think, for the first time

627
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 9: ever a prescription opioid where if you take more of it,

628
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 9: your body turns it off and doesn't allow an overdose.

629
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: So what's ther do you have competitors in this space?

630
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: Because this opioid issue and crisis, I guess is the

631
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: correct term in this country does not seem to be abating.

632
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: So do you have some competitors in the marketplace, and

633
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: if so, how does your science potentially differ from what's

634
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: out there in the marketplace.

635
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, obviously, I mean I think the entire pain industry

636
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 9: has been looking for solutions for this crisis. Most companies

637
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 9: had used what we call formulations, trying to release the

638
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 9: drug slowly over time. What Insis has done is use chemistry.

639
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 9: We've chemically modified the opioid so until it's swallowed and

640
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 9: it's exposed to an enzyme that your body uses to

641
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 9: digest your meat products, it doesn't release the opioid, and

642
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 9: it's very hard to manipulate to make it release faster.

643
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 9: At Currently, there are no companies using technologies like ours,

644
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 9: so the abuse to turrent formulations haven't worked. We believe

645
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 9: our solution gives us something that's safer, and we've recently

646
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 9: had clinical trials showing that recreational drug users don't really

647
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 9: like our product and that it actually releases an opioid

648
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 9: to affect pain as it should, so we feel it'll

649
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 9: be effective, have less abuse, and have this safety of

650
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 9: potentially reducing overdose.

651
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: How far are you from getting this product out to patients?

652
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: I mean, what kind of trials do you need to

653
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: still need to go through.

654
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 9: Yes, we have had a very busy year. We conducted

655
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 9: four clinical trials last year. We're now poised and planning

656
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 9: to speak to the agency to start our Phase three

657
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 9: trials at the end of this year, and we hope

658
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 9: to be able to submit our NDA in twenty twenty five,

659
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 9: so it's still a couple of years away, but very

660
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 9: close to the end.

661
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: Your stock has been all over the place. I know

662
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: you did an IPO I guess back in twenty one

663
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: at fifteen dollars a share. Then it seems to have

664
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: gone all over the place. I'm looking at the stock chart.

665
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's correct, but it had you

666
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: kind of way up there. Now down to three dollars

667
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: a share. What's what's going on with your stock and

668
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: what's the market calling?

669
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 5: How?

670
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 9: I wish I could answer. We've had very good results

671
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 9: and in some days we've traded a massive amount of shares.

672
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 5: We seem to be.

673
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 9: A hit with the retail crowd, so it does go

674
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 9: up and down. Even last week it was almost six dollars.

675
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 9: We're now down to about three and a half. And

676
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 9: I believe with the hope that we have. We do

677
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 9: hope that our shareholders will stay with us and allow

678
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 9: us to move things forward. But yes, our stock has

679
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 9: had a wild ride over the last year.

680
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: It actually makes the market cap just about four and

681
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: a half million. And I wonder why you don't just

682
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: you know, get around by the company. I mean, why

683
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: not take it private at that point.

684
00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 9: We're looking at various opportunities. Obviously this last week where

685
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 9: we were close to six dollars, we had hoped we'd

686
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 9: start maintaining a little more upward pressure. We're looking at

687
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 9: all opportunities at the moment.

688
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: So talk to us about just kind of the biotech

689
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: space in general. Is it kind of thing post COVID,

690
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: you know, so amazing how quickly the mRNA vaccines got

691
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: to market, and you know, and the FDA kind of

692
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: really sped things up. Is the FDA and approval process

693
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: different today than it was three or four years ago.

694
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 9: Well, I think during COVID they did utilize emergency use.

695
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 9: There was a lot of money put in to the

696
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 9: market to get the vaccines. But what that did was

697
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 9: also make it more difficult for regular biotech companies to

698
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 9: the supply chain of animals and bials and everything else

699
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 9: that were used up in the vaccines. We do have

700
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 9: fast tracked status with our technology, so we potentially have

701
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 9: the ability to move a little faster, all though we

702
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 9: believe it may not be as fast as it was

703
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 9: with vaccines.

704
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Okay, Lynn, thank you so much for joining us,

705
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: for taking the time. Lynn Kirkpatrick, CEO of NCISE Biosciences,

706
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: The tech tickers E NSC.

707
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 5: You're listening to the tape cans are live program Bloomberg

708
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 5: Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

709
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 5: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.

710
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 5: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

711
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 5: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. Now.

712
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: I'm pretty excited about this next guest.

713
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: I have been following this company since it had a

714
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: different name and made big inch twins. Now, Curtis Motorcycles

715
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 2: makes electric bikes that are more like works of art

716
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 2: than they are modes of transportation. I mean they are

717
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: at Google It Google Google, Curtis. I'm looking at to

718
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: s this motorcycle and you'll see something pretty insane. Matt

719
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: Chambers joins us, the founder of the business and the CEO,

720
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 2: Matt Thanks so much for your time talk to us

721
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 2: about where Curtis is in its journey right now. Because

722
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: you make a product that is it's fair to say,

723
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: too expensive for most consumers, and as a result, I

724
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: don't see that many on the road, but when I do,

725
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: I'm very excited, and I guess you have probably a

726
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 2: huge group of fanboys like me.

727
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 7: Well, we're very close to delivering the first of the

728
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 7: Curtis One product that will come out later this year,

729
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 7: so we've taken us about six years to get to

730
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 7: where we are. We wanted to make the best possible

731
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 7: electric motorcycle that could be made, and we had this

732
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 7: dream really from the beginning of creating a motorcycle from

733
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 7: the inside out. We were just awarded a patent on

734
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 7: this idea, which is you tap the drive shaft through

735
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 7: the center of this F one inspired axial Flox motor.

736
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 7: It's an eleven thousand dollars electric motors, the best electric

737
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 7: motor in the world, and you tap that axle and

738
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 7: then you line up the motorcycle on the center line

739
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 7: of the motor and the axle, so it's the first

740
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 7: motorcycle ever made where symmetry is actually framed, so the

741
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,959
Speaker 7: balance of the two wheel device is a little bit better,

742
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 7: you know, if you think about it, all the early

743
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 7: motorcycle makers were bicycle makers first, so motorcycle has really

744
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 7: always been taking a bicycle and then figuring out how

745
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 7: to motorize it. This would be the first time where

746
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 7: you start really by tapping the axle, so it's more

747
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 7: of an organic approach, and we think it's really led

748
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 7: to a more beautiful outcome. The bike certainly rides beautifully,

749
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 7: the control is amazing, it's very easy to use. We

750
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 7: think there's a new audience out there for two wheeled

751
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 7: luxury motoring, we'd like to say, because it's it's just

752
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 7: so sublime and it's like gliding over the ttarmac when

753
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 7: you ride it.

754
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 2: So I talked to I'll never forget talking to Kevin

755
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: Cameron at the Moto GP in Indianapolis about ten years ago,

756
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: and he thought, you know, motorcycles are not the place

757
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 2: where electricity is going to be the powertrain. But now

758
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: you've got a lot of competitors in Harley Davidson, they've

759
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: got the live wire. I've ridden in a Nergica bike

760
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: that I thought was a pretty and zero with, both

761
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: of which I thought were pretty cool experiences.

762
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: This is though a different level.

763
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: As you say, it's a complete re engineering of the

764
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: bike to make it an electric vehicle. What kind of

765
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 2: order interest have you got? What kind of you know

766
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: of a book are you building? In terms of selling

767
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: these things.

768
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 7: We've got, we have thirty two firm sales or the

769
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 7: first one thirty. We're only going to make one hundred

770
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 7: and thirty of this particular model.

771
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: And they were like grand or ninety grand to start.

772
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 7: One hundred and twenty thousand, So it starts at one

773
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 7: twenty and goes up from there. But the situation is

774
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 7: much better than that because we have twenty five hundred

775
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 7: qualified expressions of interest. So I believe it's going to

776
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 7: come down more to who we really target. We hope

777
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 7: to get just the right customers. Now. Now we have

778
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 7: approximately thirteen hundred folks that have bought our bikes in

779
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 7: the past. The average about one hundred thousand of bikes,

780
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 7: so we have a pretty good deck of people that

781
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 7: have done business with us, and they're all satisfied with

782
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 7: what they what we made for them.

783
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: Were those Confederate Bikes that was the original.

784
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 7: Those bikes. We built about thirteen hundred of those and

785
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 7: they average about one hundred thousand. So there's quite a

786
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 7: few billionaire customers. And I think the richest man in

787
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 7: the world had one. I believe he was unfortunately to cease.

788
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 7: Now we have a lot of we do. We do

789
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 7: have some some uh extremely accomplished. Uh.

790
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: That's kind of where I wanted to go, Matt. I mean,

791
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: I know nothing about the motorcycle business, unlike Matt, who

792
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: is an expert. But just give me a sense of

793
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 1: how you position Curtis Curtis Motorcycles in the marketplace. Who's

794
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: your typical buyer and how has that evolved.

795
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 7: Well, we're taking in a different approach. We we're making.

796
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 7: This is a one to eighty degree difference. I had

797
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 7: this I had this this thing about wanting to be

798
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 7: like a MG to Harley, So I wanted to make

799
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 7: a very bombastic bike before with the big V twins.

800
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 7: Now I'm in a whole different mindsets, as is the

801
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 7: Curtis team, and so we're going more like you would

802
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 7: think of motoring pre World War Two, like the gentle

803
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 7: cruise with all that torque so the bike is really tuned.

804
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 7: The bike is capable of enormous amount ounce of tor

805
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 7: probably as much or more than any machine ever made

806
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 7: for the road. But it's but the tuning of the

807
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 7: motorcycle is very very easy, is for very easy use.

808
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 7: You could you could let your young daughter or your

809
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 7: wife ride it. It's so easy to ride. And and

810
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 7: that's that's what we're really going for. So we we

811
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 7: believe that we can open up this, this idea of

812
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 7: motoring on two wheels to a much broader audience just

813
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 7: because frankly, it's it's it's very confidence inspiring. All the

814
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 7: tuning is made to give you great confidence when you're

815
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 7: in the saddle and uh, and it's it's it's very

816
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,479
Speaker 7: very sublime. The overall experience, no noise, you can get

817
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 7: more involved with the elements. Uh, it's it's really a much.

818
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 7: I disagree with Kevin. I think that the I think

819
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 7: a lot more people will come to this, that it

820
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 7: may be a different type of rider. I'm not sure

821
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 7: that all of the icy fan base will want this,

822
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 7: but I think there's a broader audience of people that will.

823
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 7: In relative to other electric motorcycle companies, some of those

824
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 7: bikes are tuned for more aggression. We could make race

825
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 7: bikes that would be very, very fast, but that's not

826
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 7: really what the Curtis rotting experience is about. It's really

827
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 7: about ease control.

828
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 2: I actually had a conversation with Galutsy about this, and

829
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: that's kind of like what he was trying to do.

830
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: Miguel on heel Galuzzi, who designed.

831
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: The I'm speaking for our entire audience TOI, he designed

832
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: the Ducatti Monster.

833
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 7: And now Miguel very well, yes.

834
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: Can you tell us anything about the people who ordered

835
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 2: your bikes? I know Brad Pitt has a confederate. I

836
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: think Tom Cruise has one. I think I've seen one

837
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: in Jay Leno's garage. Are you allowed to give us

838
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: that kind of information on the h on the Curtis.

839
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 7: What I will tell you is is that the is

840
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 7: it the people that the people that have ordered our

841
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 7: bikes in the past and the people that are ordering

842
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 7: the Curtis are the coolest people. I mean, I know

843
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 7: this sounds like what you would expect to hear, but

844
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 7: I swear is the truth. They're the sweetest, most wonderful people.

845
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 7: One of the greatest thing about my career has been

846
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 7: that in the motorcycle business is the type of people

847
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 7: who migrated toward wanting the things that we make that

848
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 7: you know, they're just wonderful folks.

849
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: You're based down in Alabama, is that right, Mett?

850
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 7: Well, we have a small shop right outside of Birmingham,

851
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 7: Alabama and Leeds, and we have a studio in New Orleans.

852
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: What's it like.

853
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 7: We're going to build the first the first one thirty

854
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 7: here and then we're gonna then We're not sure exactly

855
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 7: where the next shop will be, but we're following this

856
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 7: Tesla model of business. So we'll start really small, thirty

857
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 7: forty and then sixty bikes a year, and then in

858
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,959
Speaker 7: the four or year of production, we're looking to build

859
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 7: maybe as many a seven or eight hundred at a

860
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 7: lower price point, which will come in about sixty and

861
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 7: then we'll have a thirty thousand dollars product and then

862
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 7: a fifteen thousand dollars product. So our business model is

863
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 7: very similar to what mister Musk created, which is a

864
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 7: smart way to do it. So you start at the

865
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 7: very tippy top of the market and you slowly work

866
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 7: your way down.

867
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 2: I've recently talked to your wife on the phone about

868
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: your shareholding, your structure. You have OTC shares. CMOT is

869
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: the ticker. How are you going to raise funds or

870
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: do you need to raise funds any further?

871
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 7: We're raising money now, so a there's an ability to

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00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 7: buy shares direct on our website as of this point

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Speaker 7: in time. So we like the idea of the kind

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00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 7: of democratization of the direct to investor approach. So we're

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Speaker 7: using that. We feel that it's a really good feel

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Speaker 7: very strongly that we have a tremendous opportunity long term.

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Speaker 7: I think we have the right approach. I think that

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Speaker 7: we're the only company that's really starting at the very

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Speaker 7: top right and then working down and we have we

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Speaker 7: have a pedigree from making bikes that are desired by

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Speaker 7: this category of owner exs.

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Speaker 1: All right, Matt, thanks so much for joining us. Matt Chambers,

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Speaker 1: CEO and chairman of the board of Curtis Motorcycle. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe

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00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast

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Speaker 1: platform you prefer.

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Speaker 2: I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy three.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney

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Speaker 1: Before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio