WEBVTT - All About Shinnecock Hills, Host of the 2026 U.S. Open

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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<v Speaker 2>When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I find my ball in a.

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<v Speaker 1>Brid egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg,

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<v Speaker 1>Frida Egg, Brian Egg, Frida Egg, Bride egg Lie.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about ready to run off the golf course game.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to the Friday Golf Podcast. I am your host,

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<v Speaker 2>Andy Johnson, and today I am excited to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>one of my favorite golf courses in the world, which

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<v Speaker 2>also happens to be the twenty twenty six US Open

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<v Speaker 2>host Shinnakak Hills, and I'm excited I haven't been joined

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<v Speaker 2>by my colleague, my friend, employee number one, This staff

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<v Speaker 2>member of Frida Egg UH, Garrett Morrison, who is UH

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<v Speaker 2>is his own podcast, Designing Golf, which delves into the

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<v Speaker 2>great subject of golf architecture every other week. I'm excited

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<v Speaker 2>to chat with Garrett. It's been a little bit while

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<v Speaker 2>since we've we've talked and it was great. We UH.

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<v Speaker 2>We enjoyed media Day thanks to the us GA out

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<v Speaker 2>there a couple of weeks ago, and UH it was

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<v Speaker 2>Garrett's first time around the golf course, it was my

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what time. It was a few times

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<v Speaker 2>and uh it was a blustery day. The course was

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<v Speaker 2>fiery and uh, I you know, I think you know,

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<v Speaker 2>for Garrett, he can speak for himself, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was baptism by fire and it was, Uh it was.

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<v Speaker 2>It was Shinnacock coming on all cylinders, which was fun

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<v Speaker 2>to see. And we so we will dive into Shinnacock. Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>This will be kind of the course preview portion of

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<v Speaker 2>our Shinnecock coverage. I wanted to get it out early.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll have a lot of coincide and coverage. Uh. Just

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<v Speaker 2>last week, we we released our first piece of Shinnakok coverage,

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<v Speaker 2>which was the Allgrasses Local Series, our series that documents

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<v Speaker 2>turf operations. So it took a look at Shinnecock Hills,

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<v Speaker 2>uh maintenance staff and crew in the you know, unique

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<v Speaker 2>uh circumstances that they deal with being out on the

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<v Speaker 2>east end of Long Island and preparing championship golf. So

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<v Speaker 2>that uh that is coming. That came out. That's on

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<v Speaker 2>our YouTube page. You can check that out in a

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<v Speaker 2>couple in a in a couple of weeks, we'll have

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<v Speaker 2>our formal UH YouTube video that that dives into the

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<v Speaker 2>architecture of Shinnakok Hills. On top of that, Garrett, We'll

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<v Speaker 2>be releasing a pod that is a lot about the

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<v Speaker 2>history of Shinnakok Hills and the design UH that will

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<v Speaker 2>be released next week, and then we will also have

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<v Speaker 2>a written piece on Shinnakok Kill is a course profile

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm touching up, and you know, it just depends

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<v Speaker 2>on when my fingers decide they're way to finish that piece,

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<v Speaker 2>but I would guess that's coming out this week or

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<v Speaker 2>next week on the website. So hopefully, you know, by

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<v Speaker 2>saying this, I will have committed myself to a deadline

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<v Speaker 2>that my ADHD does not just bypass. And I have

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<v Speaker 2>a firm deadline here, so I'm really excited. This is

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, Irona makes surprise a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 2>but Shinnakok has been kind of the bell of the

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty six ball in terms of schedules. You kind

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<v Speaker 2>of look at every year and there's some sensational years

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<v Speaker 2>and next year obviously we have Pebble Beach in the

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<v Speaker 2>old course as well as Frisco. But I think you

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<v Speaker 2>look at next year and it's like, well, the old course,

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<v Speaker 2>the opening of the old course is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>it to me, just with the history, the recent history

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<v Speaker 2>at Acock, some of the drama that tends to company

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<v Speaker 2>golf on the East end of Long Island, and just

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<v Speaker 2>the conditions that you can get some fantastic recent championships there.

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<v Speaker 2>This is this is the one, especially from a TV perspective. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>you know it's a hard place to get to for

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<v Speaker 2>fans and they'll have great attendance. But from a TV perspective,

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<v Speaker 2>this one is grab your popcorn and watch, like you know, listen.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm never gonna be someone that's like, this is the

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<v Speaker 2>best golf course in the world, because I think a

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<v Speaker 2>golf course a lot like like restaurants in the sense

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<v Speaker 2>and if somebody says, Andy, what's the best golf course

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<v Speaker 2>in the world, much like if they asked me what

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<v Speaker 2>the best restaurant was that I've ever had, I'd be like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>what kind of restaurant are you talking about? What kind

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<v Speaker 2>of food are you in the mood for? And that

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<v Speaker 2>dictates what the best restaurant is for somebody. Like golf courses,

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<v Speaker 2>I think like one of the big things with golf

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<v Speaker 2>courses that people miss, and the list miss is like

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<v Speaker 2>what is the best golf course for the day I

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<v Speaker 2>want to play? And you know, I might not be

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<v Speaker 2>in the mood to get my ass kicked by Shittacock

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<v Speaker 2>Hills on a given day, but on a day that

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<v Speaker 2>I want to go see how sharp I am, see

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<v Speaker 2>what I got, see what's in the in the in

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<v Speaker 2>the quiver, what what what arrows I have these days?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I think Shittacock to me is at the

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<v Speaker 2>top of the of the pyramid of American you know,

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<v Speaker 2>championship golf courses where I'm going to go out and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to see what game, what my game brings today.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel that way when I go play there, I

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<v Speaker 2>I probably tend to play a lot of like I

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<v Speaker 2>play most of my golf is work golf, but like

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<v Speaker 2>it's like in a casual setting when I go to Chittacock,

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<v Speaker 2>I tend to lock in. I say, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>spend my time focusing on these shots and I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to attempt to hit shots that I don't normally always

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<v Speaker 2>hit because I want to take on this golf course.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think there's different things like you go to

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<v Speaker 2>Cyprus and you lock in on the experience and the

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<v Speaker 2>journey in the walk, and that's what makes that place

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<v Speaker 2>so special. So to me, this idea of, oh, like,

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<v Speaker 2>this is the best golf course in the world is

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<v Speaker 2>such a futile exercise. But I would just say about

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<v Speaker 2>Shinnacock Hills and why I'm so hyped up for this

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<v Speaker 2>US Open is that Shinnecock Hills would be on the

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<v Speaker 2>short list of my recommendations of If you were going

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<v Speaker 2>to say, what's the best golf course in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and I say back, well, what are you in the

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<v Speaker 2>mood for? What type of golf do you want to play?

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<v Speaker 2>If you said I want to test my game and

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<v Speaker 2>see what I got, I would probably be like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you should go play Shinnecock Hills. Not that it's that easy.

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<v Speaker 2>We can't just book a reservation like that with golf,

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<v Speaker 2>and I identify that. But you know, the idea and

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<v Speaker 2>the goal of our coverage in the lead up of

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<v Speaker 2>this this major championship will be to give you the

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<v Speaker 2>idea as much as we possibly can what it is

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<v Speaker 2>like to play there and what it is these challenges

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<v Speaker 2>that the best players in the world are going to

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<v Speaker 2>confront on a shot by shot and round by round basis,

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<v Speaker 2>depending on the elements and how the golf course is

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<v Speaker 2>set up. So that's my little monologue here before this,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't anticipate talking that long before we get to it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know something that would be valuable to practice before

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<v Speaker 2>you got to Shittacock. I'd be working on my putting.

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<v Speaker 2>The greens there are there are some diabolical greens, there's

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<v Speaker 2>some docile greens. But one of the things about the

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<v Speaker 2>greens is they are very difficult because they're exposed, they

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<v Speaker 2>sit up, there's wind, there's a lot of tilt in them,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of tilt in them, similar to ronom inc

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<v Speaker 2>which we just saw. But one of the things you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to see a lot of over the course of

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<v Speaker 2>the US Open is a lot of six to eight

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<v Speaker 2>footers for pars that guys have to make. And the

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<v Speaker 2>way I get ready to make my six or eight

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<v Speaker 2>footers for par when I'm at home, an easy way

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<v Speaker 2>to just kill twenty minutes at a time, fifteen minutes,

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<v Speaker 2>ten minutes, two minutes. You get yourself a perfect practice putting. Matt.

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<v Speaker 2>What I love about this, and particularly for those short

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<v Speaker 2>putts that are kind of make or break round putts,

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<v Speaker 2>like the days that you just don't give them away,

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<v Speaker 2>the days you don't miss the three to five footers,

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<v Speaker 2>the days you make you know a lot of eight footers,

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<v Speaker 2>those are the days you score well. And what I

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<v Speaker 2>love about the Perfect Practice Putting Matt to me is

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<v Speaker 2>it teaches me how to hit a perfect straight putt.

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<v Speaker 2>It's got effectively what I would describe as a chalk line,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the I think one of the best ways

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<v Speaker 2>to practice putting. It's a line that allows you to

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<v Speaker 2>look at how your stroke's interacting. I tend to be

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<v Speaker 2>iput best when my stroke goes inside and then I'm

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<v Speaker 2>able to release the putter inside on the takeaway. But

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<v Speaker 2>I can see that because they have the line on

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<v Speaker 2>the Perfect probably Practice Putting Mat and I'm just hitting

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<v Speaker 2>straight putts. And one of the things that I noticed

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<v Speaker 2>with the Perfect Practice Putting Mat, it's really smooth, It's

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<v Speaker 2>really true. It like simulates what a putting green's like.

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<v Speaker 2>It has the ball return, which makes it really easy

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<v Speaker 2>to just sit and practice for ten minutes without having

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<v Speaker 2>to move. But what I see with putting when I

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<v Speaker 2>put my best is I see my lines and I

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<v Speaker 2>think about if I hit a straight putt on this line,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna make it. And that's why I love about

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<v Speaker 2>the time I spend on my Perfect Practice putting mat

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<v Speaker 2>is it gets me ready to hit really challenging putts

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<v Speaker 2>if I can visualize, this is my straight putt if

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<v Speaker 2>I hit it at this spot. So the good news

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<v Speaker 2>I have for you is that if you go to

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<v Speaker 2>perfect Practice dot com, I can get you twenty percent

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<v Speaker 2>off with the code SGS. You can also if you

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to look at other things for Father's Day gifts,

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<v Speaker 2>they have the chip shot, which is a really cool thing.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes you, it helps you chip I'm excited. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>moving a new place with a little bit more space

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<v Speaker 2>to use the chip shot. I'm excited about that. But

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<v Speaker 2>you can buy those all at perfect Practice dot com

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<v Speaker 2>that are the perfect Father's Day gift, which is right

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<v Speaker 2>around the corner. Or you know, if you don't want

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<v Speaker 2>SGS for twenty percent off, you don't want to use

0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.000
<v Speaker 2>that promo code, you want to go to Amazon or

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<v Speaker 2>golf Galaxy. You can get those there too, and those

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<v Speaker 2>you don't get SGS twenty or SGS for twenty percent off.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you want twenty percent off. I'll say go

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<v Speaker 2>to perfect practice dot com. If you want to get

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<v Speaker 2>this like today when you're listening to this, go to

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<v Speaker 2>your local golf galaxy and buy it. But anyways, these

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<v Speaker 2>are great practice options and it would get your ready

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<v Speaker 2>to play shitta cock or any hard course around you.

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<v Speaker 2>If you just make a lot more short putts. I

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<v Speaker 2>promise you you're going to get better at golf. Is

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<v Speaker 2>proba The easiest way to get better at golf is

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<v Speaker 2>to show up your short putting. All right, without further ado,

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<v Speaker 2>let's talk to our friend Garrett Morrison. Garrett, welcome on,

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<v Speaker 2>How are you doing?

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having me Andy, I'm doing great. Ready to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about shinnacock. We don't have to go to in

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<v Speaker 1>depth on our media day round there. We like don't

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<v Speaker 1>have to, don't We don't have to tell people what

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<v Speaker 1>happened or how I played or anything like that. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you alluded to it briefly in your little introductory spiel there,

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<v Speaker 1>but I don't think people need to, you know, they're

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<v Speaker 1>not interested in that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I think you got it on a top.

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<v Speaker 2>That was a tough introduction to shinnacock. It was blown

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<v Speaker 2>about twenty five miles an hour.

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<v Speaker 1>Look, Shinnacock was on top of me, the elements were

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<v Speaker 1>on top of me, but most importantly, I was on

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<v Speaker 1>top of myself. I did a lot of that to myself.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know, basically the media day round for

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<v Speaker 1>me turned into I'm not gonna hold people up, going

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<v Speaker 1>to do our little bits to the camera, uh, to

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<v Speaker 1>to supplement our video, and we're going to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>focus on that. But if I if I top it

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<v Speaker 1>into the fescue, I'm I'm not going to be, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>spending two minutes looking for it.

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<v Speaker 2>I like how you did that? You know you you

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<v Speaker 2>you know you just you just said. I wasn't there

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<v Speaker 2>to play golf. I was there to make content.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah that was my responsibility, and yeah I could

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<v Speaker 1>have done both, but I wasn't playing well enough to

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<v Speaker 1>I wasn't I didn't have I didn't have things in

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<v Speaker 1>order to do both.

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<v Speaker 2>My takeaway is that if you didn't have the responsibilities

0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:39.600
<v Speaker 2>of being you know, real uh a standout Friday golf

0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.960
<v Speaker 2>uh uh, you know video personality on this on this

0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.360
<v Speaker 2>video that we were shooting, you would have played great.

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.280
<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm taking away. But you know, it's hard

0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.520
<v Speaker 2>to play good golf and work at the same time.

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.720
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, you know, we we we have things

0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:57.160
<v Speaker 1>tough here.

0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So that was your first time around Shinnacock. Obviously,

0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a course that I think you as a someone

0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.520
<v Speaker 2>who's keen about golf history, the evolution of golf courses,

0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:13.280
<v Speaker 2>the you know kind of how golf courses and architects, like,

0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 2>I know you had read and spent a lot of

0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:23.400
<v Speaker 2>time looking at watching tournaments from Shinnacock, studying Shinnecock Hills

0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>before you got there. I wanted to start or start

0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:30.120
<v Speaker 2>this kind of conversation pretty broad. I prepped a couple

0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.200
<v Speaker 2>of things, but I was I was curious, let's talk

0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.960
<v Speaker 2>about like three things each that just on the periphery

0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.880
<v Speaker 2>stand out about Shinnacock. Whether this could be history, this

0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.400
<v Speaker 2>could be design related, or it could be you know,

0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:46.120
<v Speaker 2>just part of the place.

0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to just go back and forth?

0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:50.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? You start one.

0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Each, Yeah cool. Yeah, I mean this was my first

0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:59.640
<v Speaker 1>time seeing Shinnecock Hills in person. One of the great

0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.800
<v Speaker 1>things that I got to do during media day was

0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.160
<v Speaker 1>show up early in the morning and actually walk the

0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.320
<v Speaker 1>golf course because at the same time that we were

0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 1>doing all the media day stuff. We were also putting

0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.880
<v Speaker 1>together a video about the agronomy team at the club,

0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.680
<v Speaker 1>which you mentioned. That's our All Grass Is Local video,

0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:23.480
<v Speaker 1>which is out already. And so I actually did get

0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.320
<v Speaker 1>to walk the course hole by hole in the early

0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.040
<v Speaker 1>morning when the maintenance crew is out there, and that

0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.000
<v Speaker 1>was a pretty magical experience. You know, I didn't didn't

0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.000
<v Speaker 1>have to worry about my golf game or anything like that,

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.640
<v Speaker 1>just got to have to look at these golf holes

0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:41.000
<v Speaker 1>and take some pictures and familiarize myself with the place,

0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.440
<v Speaker 1>because you know, I felt like I knew this course

0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.400
<v Speaker 1>from singing. I mean, I remember the nineteen ninety five

0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:50.560
<v Speaker 1>US opened very well. That's right when I was starting

0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.800
<v Speaker 1>to get into golf and when I was getting into

0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.200
<v Speaker 1>watching golf. So I vividly remember watching that tournament and

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.200
<v Speaker 1>seeing this course and being like, whoa, you know, what

0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.680
<v Speaker 1>is this place? Two thousand and four memorable tournament twenty

0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.160
<v Speaker 1>eighteen as well. So I felt like I knew the course,

0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.960
<v Speaker 1>but seeing it in person is a different thing. And

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:16.960
<v Speaker 1>that actually leads into my first remarkable thing or favorite

0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.920
<v Speaker 1>thing about Shinnecak Hills. And that's just the simple fact

0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:25.080
<v Speaker 1>that there are no gates around this golf course, and

0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.120
<v Speaker 1>that a busy road just goes right through the middle

0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.440
<v Speaker 1>of it, Tuckahoe Road. You know, at certain times of

0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.400
<v Speaker 1>day it's actually kind of backed up through the golf course.

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.480
<v Speaker 1>And this might seem like just a silly thing, but

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.680
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about Shinnecock Hills here. You know, this is

0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:50.600
<v Speaker 1>one of the most kind of aspirational and exclusive golf

0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.720
<v Speaker 1>courses in the world. But you realize when you drive

0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 1>up to it that it's just kind of sitting there

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.160
<v Speaker 1>out in full view. It's almost like Cyprus Point, where

0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 1>you're driving along seventeen mile drive and you realize, oh,

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 1>there's the thirteenth green just sitting there for anybody to

0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.160
<v Speaker 1>look at. But at Shinnakok Hills it's even more so

0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.080
<v Speaker 1>because you can there's this public road going right through

0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 1>the course. And it just reminds you that the roots

0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:25.400
<v Speaker 1>of golf in America and on Long Island specifically, were

0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.560
<v Speaker 1>really pretty casual. It's like, yeah, there may have been

0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Vanderbilts who were founding these clubs, but really what was

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.840
<v Speaker 1>happening is that these guys were going out to find

0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.440
<v Speaker 1>a good piece of land and then they were just

0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 1>playing golf on it, and Shinnacock Hills has retained that

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:46.080
<v Speaker 1>feeling by not being behind gates, by just being a

0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.040
<v Speaker 1>place that you can kind of drive up to and

0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.880
<v Speaker 1>that you can see very very well from a busy

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:55.360
<v Speaker 1>highway and then and then turning off to go on

0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.240
<v Speaker 1>to Tuckahoe Road. And so just the fact that it's

0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.320
<v Speaker 1>this this piece of land in this golf course are

0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.800
<v Speaker 1>are just sitting there out in public view kind of

0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.840
<v Speaker 1>charmed me and made me feel like this place has

0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 1>still a strong connection to its past.

0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think it's a great point, and it's it's

0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, certain times a day traffic gets fierce late

0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.960
<v Speaker 2>mid afternoon, it gets you know, they they I think

0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 2>that it's referred to out there as the trade parade

0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.560
<v Speaker 2>is you know, everybody that works on these very nice

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.359
<v Speaker 2>houses out there that commute from the middle of the

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.679
<v Speaker 2>island go out there in the morning, going out it's

0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.879
<v Speaker 2>bad in the afternoon, coming backs bad to the central

0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.840
<v Speaker 2>part of the island. But you know, one of the

0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.720
<v Speaker 2>neat things about that, what you pointed out, Garrett, is like,

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:47.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, if it's not the US Open week and

0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.800
<v Speaker 2>the roads closed, like one of the other neat aspects

0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.639
<v Speaker 2>of that is if you're just in the area, you

0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.720
<v Speaker 2>could drive and you could you know, park, you could

0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.240
<v Speaker 2>stop your car for a second, throw on your flashers,

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.760
<v Speaker 2>and the way the road interacts with the golf course,

0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.359
<v Speaker 2>you've got like an awesome view of basically the whole course.

0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.320
<v Speaker 2>So from like a perspective of like listen, like I'm

0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.600
<v Speaker 2>a nut job, I'll never forget when I told my

0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:18.320
<v Speaker 2>wife we were driving back from Marquette, Michigan, that I

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.760
<v Speaker 2>needed to pull over because there's a golf course that

0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I've heard is pretty cool and I need to see it.

0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.439
<v Speaker 2>And she's like, what do you mean? And I parked

0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the car at the entrance and got out and sprinted

0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.520
<v Speaker 2>around the golf course. I ran like probably like six

0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.240
<v Speaker 2>or seven holes. It was super late, it was like

0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.240
<v Speaker 2>six pm in the afternoon, and I just like ran

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.080
<v Speaker 2>around the golf course because I just wanted to see

0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.159
<v Speaker 2>some of the stuff that people have told me about

0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:44.400
<v Speaker 2>from my own eyes.

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.160
<v Speaker 1>Was for a lifetime of suffering.

0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you know that that had to be a

0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:58.760
<v Speaker 2>red flag. But I ran around the golf course then

0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.000
<v Speaker 2>got back of the car, like, you know, ten minutes

0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.400
<v Speaker 2>later and we drove, we got back on the road

0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 2>and drove that was Pine Hill's. But I was like

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.679
<v Speaker 2>immediately like okay, I have to get here from a

0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.560
<v Speaker 2>perspective of like, okay, this place you you're it's hard

0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:16.200
<v Speaker 2>place to go see because of the exclusivity factor of it,

0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.199
<v Speaker 2>but it's not a hard place to just get a

0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.560
<v Speaker 2>look to really understand, you know, when you talk like

0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.240
<v Speaker 2>in real life seeing the landform and you're almost it's

0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.280
<v Speaker 2>almost like you're up with a drone where the road

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.280
<v Speaker 2>is and you can see how the vast majority of

0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the golf course interacts with each other. And I think

0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.520
<v Speaker 2>that's neat. You know. I'm not saying go there and

0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 2>paint a picture and pull your car over, but you

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.000
<v Speaker 2>could throw your flashers on, get out of your car,

0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.719
<v Speaker 2>look like almost like a vista point over the ocean

0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:51.239
<v Speaker 2>on a highway, you know, So very cool aspect of it.

0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.160
<v Speaker 2>You know. One of the things that I know you

0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.240
<v Speaker 2>you've hit on a lot that I appreciate about. Uh

0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Shinnakok Kills is obviously one of the founding five clubs

0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.919
<v Speaker 2>of the U. S g A. So it, along with

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Chicago Golf Club, the Country Club in Massachusetts, Saint Andrews

0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Golf Club and the fifth because I'm on the spot

0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.639
<v Speaker 2>and didn't write it down Newport Newport. There you go.

0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:19.760
<v Speaker 2>I knew you you'd picked me.

0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.680
<v Speaker 1>We did a good job there See. I wouldn't have

0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.400
<v Speaker 1>been able to rattle off the first four like you did,

0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.200
<v Speaker 1>but but I did have Newport.

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.120
<v Speaker 2>You know what. Inevitably, whenever I tried rattle off those

0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 2>five clubs, I always forget one, and.

0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.680
<v Speaker 1>It's Defally Andrews. Probably, yeah, but that.

0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.119
<v Speaker 2>Was the one to be because it's the the you know,

0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't.

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:43.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't do it for sure. It's not Yeah, it's

0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.640
<v Speaker 1>not the it's it's less prominent than I mean, think

0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.160
<v Speaker 1>about the prominence of the of the others. But yeah,

0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Newport and Shinnacok kind of evolved in similar ways, had

0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.080
<v Speaker 1>shared some personnel and and so there are some there

0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:55.639
<v Speaker 1>are some links between those two courses.

0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.439
<v Speaker 2>The thing I would say about Saint Andrews is I

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.560
<v Speaker 2>think that it's a lesson. It serves its purpose as

0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.720
<v Speaker 2>a lesson to every other club in America that beware

0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.600
<v Speaker 2>of who you let you know into your house to

0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:16.000
<v Speaker 2>change things up. And I'll leave it at that. But anyways,

0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.200
<v Speaker 2>it's a founding five member of the USBA, which means

0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.280
<v Speaker 2>it's super old. And I think one of the neat

0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:26.840
<v Speaker 2>things about about Hittcock is its design history. This golf

0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.639
<v Speaker 2>course has been a lot of things through the years

0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:35.480
<v Speaker 2>in the early years of of golf. So the original

0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:40.120
<v Speaker 2>golf course was twelve holes, which was designed by Willie Davis.

0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:46.760
<v Speaker 2>And this is just like rudimentary golf at this point.

0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, this is eighteen ninety one, I believe is

0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.640
<v Speaker 2>the year, and this is just like, hey, like if

0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.680
<v Speaker 2>you look at Chicago Golf Club's early design from CEB McDonald,

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:02.600
<v Speaker 2>it's like super rudiment, Like it is not like there's

0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.760
<v Speaker 2>no like they're just trying to like figure out what

0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.119
<v Speaker 2>golf is and how it works in America.

0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.399
<v Speaker 1>Right, This is how everybody was doing golf courses in

0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.240
<v Speaker 1>the eighteen eighties and nineties, by the way, just very

0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:19.560
<v Speaker 1>quick construction, rudimentary, as you say, without a clear idea

0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 1>of the kind of techniques or goals of inland golf

0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:23.840
<v Speaker 1>course construction.

0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.240
<v Speaker 2>So fast forward a few years and then Willy Dunn

0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Junior comes in and this would be and I you know,

0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:35.800
<v Speaker 2>I think you've researched this way more than me. But

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:39.160
<v Speaker 2>I would say this is a Victorian era of design

0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:40.359
<v Speaker 2>at this point.

0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I would say the original Willie Davis course

0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.040
<v Speaker 1>whatever that what I mean. We don't know like a

0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:50.119
<v Speaker 1>huge amount about the specific iterations of the early courses

0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.920
<v Speaker 1>at Shinnacock, but yeah, both both of them, I would

0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:58.040
<v Speaker 1>say we're part of the Victorian era of design broadly.

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.320
<v Speaker 1>Willy Done certainly kind of classically Victorian.

0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.879
<v Speaker 2>So Victorian is like you know, it would be I

0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 2>use this as myself, It would kind of be like

0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:14.159
<v Speaker 2>the way a five year old might design golf holes

0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:20.040
<v Speaker 2>which are like bunkers. You have to carry right bunkers

0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.399
<v Speaker 2>right and left because like anything off center needs to

0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:29.439
<v Speaker 2>be penalized. So this golf course hosts the first championships

0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:35.560
<v Speaker 2>at Shittakok Hills, which included the US Open in eighteen

0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:41.160
<v Speaker 2>ninety six in the US and that year. So anyways,

0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.359
<v Speaker 2>then you fast forward and you know National Golf Links

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:51.120
<v Speaker 2>has been built, you know, in Sebe McDonald's rummaging around

0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:55.680
<v Speaker 2>the area, and they bring in Sebe McDonald and Seth

0:23:55.800 --> 0:24:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Rayner to redesign the golf course and they bring their

0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:05.720
<v Speaker 2>style of early Golden Age golf architecture to Shinnecock Hills.

0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:09.720
<v Speaker 2>So we've now hit on, you know, the very beginning

0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:14.920
<v Speaker 2>basic golf design, the Victorian era of design. And then

0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:19.040
<v Speaker 2>the final person that comes in is William Flynn in

0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:23.600
<v Speaker 2>the in the nineteen twenties and like he's not as known,

0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:27.119
<v Speaker 2>the late nineteen twenties, really they acquire some new land

0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:31.159
<v Speaker 2>and they go out and build the Shinnecock Hills that

0:24:31.200 --> 0:24:34.119
<v Speaker 2>we know today. And this is would be the late

0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:38.880
<v Speaker 2>period of the Golden Age of golf design as we

0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:42.760
<v Speaker 2>describe it, which ended at roughly the you know, there

0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:45.120
<v Speaker 2>were some courses that were built after the Great Depression

0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:47.880
<v Speaker 2>that would still fall in this, but pretty much halted

0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:51.160
<v Speaker 2>at the Great Depression, and this, you know, I would

0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:55.280
<v Speaker 2>make an argument would be the most refined era of

0:24:55.400 --> 0:25:00.199
<v Speaker 2>golf design until really where we're at today. Now. Obviously

0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:04.919
<v Speaker 2>people might take, you know, might say that I'm crazy

0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>for that comparison, and obviously I understand. Nobody ever thinks

0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.800
<v Speaker 2>in the moment they're doing things wrong. You know, RTJ

0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:14.080
<v Speaker 2>and all of the golf writers during that period thought

0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:16.720
<v Speaker 2>that was the best era of design. So but this

0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:20.160
<v Speaker 2>is widely where so many you know, the Golden Age

0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:22.919
<v Speaker 2>in general, so many of the best golf courses in

0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 2>the world are are are built then. But this late

0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Golden Age period, I think is just you know, it's

0:25:29.400 --> 0:25:33.479
<v Speaker 2>when Mackenzie is building Ciper's point, Perry Maxwell is building

0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:37.080
<v Speaker 2>golf courses all over the country. William Flynn, who's way

0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:42.280
<v Speaker 2>way underregarded, which is insane because he built Shinnecock Hills,

0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.760
<v Speaker 2>which is arguably one of the best courses in the world.

0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:48.479
<v Speaker 2>He's he's cooking with gas.

0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:48.760
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:51.480
<v Speaker 2>George Thomas is building Thomas courses.

0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a lot of his best work in the late twenties.

0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:59.239
<v Speaker 2>So you did this period was just a you know,

0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:05.920
<v Speaker 2>it was just a cornycopia of great golf courses being built.

0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:10.080
<v Speaker 2>And what's neat about Shittacock is that this club kind

0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:14.719
<v Speaker 2>of embraced each era and updated the golf course and

0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:18.159
<v Speaker 2>you get this representation of this late Golden Age golf

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:21.080
<v Speaker 2>course that is spectacular.

0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:25.000
<v Speaker 1>And then they froze it in time in nineteen thirty one,

0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:28.480
<v Speaker 1>which also happened to turn out to be smart, right,

0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:32.920
<v Speaker 1>They didn't then keep following the changing trends of golf

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:37.240
<v Speaker 1>architecture through the fifties and sixties and eighties and nineties.

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Instead they said, we did a good job here. Bill

0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Flynn knew what he was doing, and we're gonna basically

0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:48.480
<v Speaker 1>preserve that golf course. Yeah, they added some trees, they

0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:51.240
<v Speaker 1>went a little bit too green in some in some

0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:55.680
<v Speaker 1>ways in the turf presentation, but that stuff was relatively

0:26:55.720 --> 0:26:58.280
<v Speaker 1>easy to dial back. They never rebuilt their greens, They

0:26:58.320 --> 0:27:02.240
<v Speaker 1>never really changed the core of the golf course that

0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:04.880
<v Speaker 1>William Flynn built in nineteen thirty one. Yeah, I think

0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:07.200
<v Speaker 1>you nailed it. And this is something that we're going

0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:10.200
<v Speaker 1>to talk about in depth on the Designing Golf episode

0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:14.120
<v Speaker 1>that I'm putting together about Shinnacock. But Shinnecock Hills really

0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:16.680
<v Speaker 1>tells the story of American golf course design through its

0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:21.639
<v Speaker 1>first forty years and the point that it got to

0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:27.479
<v Speaker 1>this late Golden Age naturalism is so great, and it

0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:30.120
<v Speaker 1>was so smart to get to that point and then

0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:34.200
<v Speaker 1>to say we're done, because I'm not sure the golf

0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:37.760
<v Speaker 1>course design really ever got better than what this group

0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:40.639
<v Speaker 1>of architects was doing in the United States in the

0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:43.840
<v Speaker 1>late nineteen twenties. At that point, they had fully absorbed

0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:48.440
<v Speaker 1>the lessons of Harry Colt. They had figured out how

0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:54.160
<v Speaker 1>to build natural seeming golf courses, golf courses that appeared

0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:57.680
<v Speaker 1>to just be responding to the land but actually had

0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:03.840
<v Speaker 1>intricate strategic ideas in them. And William Flynn was a

0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:08.240
<v Speaker 1>master of that. Alistair mackenzie obviously a master of that,

0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:13.240
<v Speaker 1>and I think a lot about Perry Maxwell's late nineteen

0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:16.679
<v Speaker 1>thirties mid to late nineteen thirties work as well. I

0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:20.639
<v Speaker 1>think Prairie Dunes and Old Town Club and Southern Hills

0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:26.639
<v Speaker 1>also represent this kind of fully developed Golden Age strategic golf.

0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Natural golf in Shinnecock Hills is one of the best

0:28:30.920 --> 0:28:33.840
<v Speaker 1>examples of that. So I think that's yeah, you laid

0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:35.840
<v Speaker 1>it laid it out really well there. Do you want

0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:40.040
<v Speaker 1>to hear my second thing? Yeah, I love how Shinnecock

0:28:40.160 --> 0:28:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Hills builds through the round. I think it's basically a

0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:52.880
<v Speaker 1>perfectly sequenced routing. And since this course is responding to

0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:55.280
<v Speaker 1>the land, that is the primary feeling that you get

0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:58.280
<v Speaker 1>from Shinnecock Hills. This is a golf course that is

0:28:58.960 --> 0:29:02.200
<v Speaker 1>about this piece of land rather than about the design

0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:06.520
<v Speaker 1>ideas of William Flann or whoever else. It makes sense

0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:10.920
<v Speaker 1>that the main narrative of the round is how dramatic

0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:14.360
<v Speaker 1>the landforms are. So you start in a portion of

0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:17.840
<v Speaker 1>the property that's kind of close to National Golf Links

0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:21.840
<v Speaker 1>and is similar in many ways to that part of

0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:25.000
<v Speaker 1>National Golf Links with the kind of broad slopes. Right,

0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:28.840
<v Speaker 1>this is it's kind of its own section of the property. Really, one, two,

0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:31.600
<v Speaker 1>and three. They all go out along a boundary of

0:29:31.600 --> 0:29:34.640
<v Speaker 1>the property, slightly turning as they go along, so you

0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:39.040
<v Speaker 1>get slightly new scenarios with the wind. But the land

0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:42.200
<v Speaker 1>is not flat there by any means. But it's also

0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:45.800
<v Speaker 1>not kind of chaotically heaving, which is what you see

0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:47.719
<v Speaker 1>in other parts of the property. It is it is

0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:51.680
<v Speaker 1>these broad, long slopes that are again similar to what

0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:54.600
<v Speaker 1>you see in the nearby section of National Golf Links.

0:29:55.400 --> 0:29:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Then with the fourth hole, you enter into a pretty

0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:04.480
<v Speaker 1>flat section of the property. Right The land is I mean,

0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:07.120
<v Speaker 1>it's good in the sense that it's sandy and that

0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:11.200
<v Speaker 1>there's some nice tumble to it, especially in the fifth fairway,

0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:16.120
<v Speaker 1>but it's not dramatic at all. It is really pretty

0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:20.160
<v Speaker 1>quiet from the fourth hole basically through the eighth hole.

0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Then you get to the ninth hole and you play

0:30:23.840 --> 0:30:26.960
<v Speaker 1>into this big ridge that the clubhouse sits on. And

0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:30.520
<v Speaker 1>the ninth hole is a preview of the coming attractions.

0:30:30.560 --> 0:30:35.840
<v Speaker 1>On the back nine, the fairway is spectacularly tumbling. The

0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:38.560
<v Speaker 1>green is perched way up on the top of the ridge.

0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:42.760
<v Speaker 1>The topography of that hole is absolutely incredible, and that

0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:47.120
<v Speaker 1>continues through holes ten eleven. It quiets down a little

0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:49.360
<v Speaker 1>bit on twelve to twelve still has that kind of

0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:52.520
<v Speaker 1>roller coaster feel to it. Thirteen as a tee perched

0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:56.200
<v Speaker 1>way up on a dune. Fourteen plays along the side

0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:59.040
<v Speaker 1>of the big dune ridge. Fifteen plays from on top

0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:02.640
<v Speaker 1>of it down. When you look back from fifteen green

0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:05.680
<v Speaker 1>up at the tea, you're like, whoa, we just descended

0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:10.280
<v Speaker 1>a long way down this ridge. Then you're back in

0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:15.960
<v Speaker 1>the lowlands, right, But sixteen occupies probably the most interesting

0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:20.640
<v Speaker 1>section of that lowlands part of the property is it

0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:23.520
<v Speaker 1>has some really nice movement to it. Seventeen and then

0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:27.800
<v Speaker 1>eighteen plays back into the big ridge, so you know,

0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:32.720
<v Speaker 1>it's a perfectly structured story about this piece of land.

0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:37.120
<v Speaker 1>We start on the quieter stuff, and we gradually build

0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.320
<v Speaker 1>to the most dramatic stuff in kind of the middle

0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:44.520
<v Speaker 1>to late middle parts of the round, and then we

0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:47.880
<v Speaker 1>go back to the quieter section for a brief period

0:31:49.000 --> 0:31:52.040
<v Speaker 1>before the end, and then we finish with the good

0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:56.120
<v Speaker 1>stuff again. So I think the routing is perfect. Then

0:31:56.120 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of kind of odd that on some early

0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:02.440
<v Speaker 1>routing maps that then were actually reversed. It's not clear

0:32:02.480 --> 0:32:05.480
<v Speaker 1>to me that they ever really committed to playing the

0:32:05.560 --> 0:32:07.760
<v Speaker 1>course in that way. But it's kind of like Augusta National,

0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:10.120
<v Speaker 1>where you're like, it's obvious that the back nine should

0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:12.880
<v Speaker 1>be the back nine, but maybe it wasn't totally obvious

0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:15.160
<v Speaker 1>to them from the beginning of the design process. Well,

0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:17.760
<v Speaker 1>the ravenines are now though, it's it's perfect.

0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, your reason the back dine became the back dine

0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:24.360
<v Speaker 2>was because of frost delays. Yeah, and Augusta and.

0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Exactly exactly right, ten ten Green was unplayable, so they're like,

0:32:28.520 --> 0:32:30.760
<v Speaker 1>all right, I guess we'd better reverse them. And and

0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:33.360
<v Speaker 1>because we can't have these amazing holes on the back

0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>nine now, like instead of playing them in the first

0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:38.640
<v Speaker 1>three holes of the day.

0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, the uh, the thing I think that

0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I I would I would say that if they had

0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:50.880
<v Speaker 2>started with ten as one, there would have been a

0:32:51.400 --> 0:32:56.200
<v Speaker 2>revolt because ten is the hardest one of the things

0:32:56.240 --> 0:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>I've for the US open. It's Thursday morning. I have

0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:03.680
<v Speaker 2>a park myself on the tenth hole and just watch

0:33:03.760 --> 0:33:04.520
<v Speaker 2>the garnage.

0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:07.320
<v Speaker 1>And it's like a scorable hole because it's you know,

0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:09.200
<v Speaker 1>it's maybe not that long for the you can make

0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:11.760
<v Speaker 1>a birdie. These guys can make birdie here. But it's

0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:15.880
<v Speaker 1>so disorienting, Like it's the way its relationship to the

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 1>land is so awkward in a good way, uh, just

0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:23.760
<v Speaker 1>like it's so blind from the tea. We really don't

0:33:23.760 --> 0:33:25.280
<v Speaker 1>know where you're playing, and it's you know, there are

0:33:25.280 --> 0:33:27.080
<v Speaker 1>a lot of places in the fairway where it's blind

0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:29.320
<v Speaker 1>to the green and the green is so perched up.

0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:32.440
<v Speaker 1>It's ugh, yeah, I mean it's it's a point. It

0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:34.240
<v Speaker 1>would be a horrible first hole of the day. Like

0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 1>the guys who have to who have to tee off there,

0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.800
<v Speaker 1>that is really if they put Patrick Red there, you know,

0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Lady j is going to be would be rightfully furious.

0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:46.360
<v Speaker 2>I've I've heard everything I've heard. They're turning over a

0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:49.600
<v Speaker 2>new page. The past is the past, and it's time

0:33:50.160 --> 0:33:52.720
<v Speaker 2>for us to move forward and noting.

0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:54.880
<v Speaker 1>Maybe we got to test that happened. Maybe the USG

0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:57.640
<v Speaker 1>has got to test that by starting starting pee on

0:33:57.680 --> 0:33:58.240
<v Speaker 1>the tenth.

0:33:58.040 --> 0:34:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Hole, right pins and a early tea time off ten

0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:05.080
<v Speaker 2>on Thursday. You know, we would know that that they're

0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:09.480
<v Speaker 2>they're plotting against some you know. Uh. The the one

0:34:09.520 --> 0:34:11.920
<v Speaker 2>thing I would say about the flip nine if they

0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:14.400
<v Speaker 2>ever flipped the not if they had the ninth flip

0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:18.560
<v Speaker 2>nine would be an absolute insane last hole.

0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:21.919
<v Speaker 1>It's a yeah, well it's an epic last hole. It's

0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.600
<v Speaker 1>a you know, and and it makes sense as the

0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:29.520
<v Speaker 1>last hole because the green is like right right under

0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:32.919
<v Speaker 1>the clubhouse. And so maybe that's kind of what what

0:34:33.160 --> 0:34:36.480
<v Speaker 1>Flynn was thinking in that early routing plan. But in

0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:39.319
<v Speaker 1>every other respect, it it doesn't make sense to have

0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:41.960
<v Speaker 1>have the round plate in that sequence.

0:34:41.880 --> 0:34:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Not just ten at the start, but having to hit

0:34:43.920 --> 0:34:46.239
<v Speaker 2>eleven the shot on eleven. I'm we're going to go

0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 2>into the into holes later, but hitting this shot on

0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:55.000
<v Speaker 2>eleven as your as your second, your second.

0:34:53.600 --> 0:34:56.840
<v Speaker 1>Your first, like the iron off the tee of the day.

0:34:57.680 --> 0:35:00.759
<v Speaker 2>Have fun Like if you get off start on ten,

0:35:00.880 --> 0:35:02.960
<v Speaker 2>you hit a couple shaky shots so that you can

0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:05.480
<v Speaker 2>go to eleven. Eleven's your next shot.

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:09.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's an insane way to start the round. Like

0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:10.680
<v Speaker 1>I can't imagine.

0:35:11.080 --> 0:35:13.160
<v Speaker 2>I do think like that there's like an element of

0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:15.520
<v Speaker 2>golf which is kind of like an interesting thing to

0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:20.360
<v Speaker 2>think about with design, is like where people's confidence is shakiest,

0:35:20.640 --> 0:35:23.600
<v Speaker 2>and a golf round is the beginning without a doubt.

0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:27.480
<v Speaker 2>No matter what happens. You have more your head is

0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:29.839
<v Speaker 2>filled with more doubt early in the round than at

0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:31.560
<v Speaker 2>any other point in the round.

0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And I would say, actually that starting on today's

0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 1>first hole, does I mean, it's not. It's not the

0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:44.439
<v Speaker 1>hardest hole in the world for these guys. It can

0:35:44.520 --> 0:35:46.239
<v Speaker 1>turn into one if you go over the back of

0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:47.600
<v Speaker 1>the green, obviously.

0:35:48.120 --> 0:35:48.279
<v Speaker 2>But.

0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:52.880
<v Speaker 1>The first hole the day elevated tea with the wind

0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:56.560
<v Speaker 1>off the left, I mean, that's kind of a that's

0:35:56.640 --> 0:36:00.359
<v Speaker 1>kind of a horrible scenario for a lot of us, right, Yeah,

0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:04.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, with win just ripping in to accentuate a

0:36:04.480 --> 0:36:07.520
<v Speaker 1>slice and a hole that is set on a left

0:36:07.520 --> 0:36:11.319
<v Speaker 1>to right diagonal. Oof. Yeah, I mean it's it's it

0:36:11.440 --> 0:36:14.839
<v Speaker 1>is not the it's not like a gentle handshake kind

0:36:14.840 --> 0:36:17.560
<v Speaker 1>of scenario. It's like you better you better have your

0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:19.800
<v Speaker 1>ball striking in order from the very first shot of

0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:20.160
<v Speaker 1>the round.

0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:24.600
<v Speaker 2>My second thing that I'll play off you with the routing.

0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:28.719
<v Speaker 2>One of my favorite aspects of William Flynn. And I

0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.160
<v Speaker 2>don't know if this was a formal nickname or if

0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:33.959
<v Speaker 2>it was just dubbed this by Wayne Morrison, the great

0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:38.040
<v Speaker 2>William Flynn historian who will be featured heavily in our

0:36:38.080 --> 0:36:41.719
<v Speaker 2>preview video. But he he he wrote a book about

0:36:41.719 --> 0:36:44.879
<v Speaker 2>William Flynn and he called him the nature Faker. And

0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:49.320
<v Speaker 2>William Flynn was notorious for building these natural golf holes

0:36:49.920 --> 0:36:54.240
<v Speaker 2>really like really putting an emphasis on using the ground

0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:58.520
<v Speaker 2>as a hazard. And one of my other big favorite

0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:02.719
<v Speaker 2>things about about William Flynn was that he believed that

0:37:02.960 --> 0:37:07.160
<v Speaker 2>golf should be a physical test as well as you know,

0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:11.239
<v Speaker 2>test of skill, a test of you know, overcoming elements

0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:14.120
<v Speaker 2>all this stuff. He believed that it should be a

0:37:14.160 --> 0:37:16.919
<v Speaker 2>physical test. And one of the things I love about

0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Shinnecock Hills is the physicality of the golf course. The

0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:25.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, when you play Shitnacock Hills and you get

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 2>done with a round, you you feel it. Your body

0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:33.240
<v Speaker 2>feels it, your mind feels it, and you are tired

0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>because you are battling all these elements. But most notably

0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:41.399
<v Speaker 2>it's this epic property, as you alluded to just when

0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:44.120
<v Speaker 2>you were talking about the routing, and the story tells

0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:47.239
<v Speaker 2>it's an epic property, but it's got a lot of

0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 2>elevation change. And and like he is, he was not

0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.879
<v Speaker 2>afraid to build holes like the ninth where you are

0:37:53.920 --> 0:37:58.000
<v Speaker 2>just climbing up this massive hill. You know it is

0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:01.400
<v Speaker 2>it's got to be you know, fifty six defeat of elevation,

0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:05.640
<v Speaker 2>uh maybe forty five to sixty feet of elevation on

0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:11.000
<v Speaker 2>that single hole. And this idea of physicality, I think

0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:15.680
<v Speaker 2>is a is a is an important piece of golf.

0:38:16.160 --> 0:38:19.080
<v Speaker 2>And when you talk about the US Open, it is,

0:38:19.400 --> 0:38:22.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the hardest tests of golf year

0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:25.440
<v Speaker 2>and year out. Shinnacock obviously elevates it probably to the

0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:29.160
<v Speaker 2>top of the bucket of testing golf courses. But if

0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:33.240
<v Speaker 2>you add in just the physical demands of midsummer days

0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:38.040
<v Speaker 2>where it's hot, you're expending a ton of mental energy.

0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:44.280
<v Speaker 2>And then the physical you know, challenges of hot days,

0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:49.040
<v Speaker 2>big big walk and the sheer amount of time that

0:38:49.120 --> 0:38:50.879
<v Speaker 2>guys are gonna be out there, They're gonna be five

0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:54.200
<v Speaker 2>and a half hours rounds. This place takes a toll

0:38:54.320 --> 0:38:56.920
<v Speaker 2>on you over the course of a week. And I

0:38:57.320 --> 0:39:01.960
<v Speaker 2>think that's a great ingredient of the golf and the

0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:05.879
<v Speaker 2>overall philosophy of the golf course. Like you're not out

0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 2>at Shittacock for a nice day walk in the park round.

0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:13.960
<v Speaker 2>You are are participating in a sport.

0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And that really culminates with that walk from

0:39:19.360 --> 0:39:23.560
<v Speaker 1>fourteen green to fifteen t. I'd like to actually look

0:39:23.560 --> 0:39:27.040
<v Speaker 1>at some early routing plans and see where fifteen t

0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:31.240
<v Speaker 1>maybe originally was. Maybe maybe it was a little closer

0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:33.319
<v Speaker 1>to fourteen green, because it's kind of it's kind of

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:37.239
<v Speaker 1>not a great green to tea transition. If we're if

0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:41.000
<v Speaker 1>we're being fair here, but if you're if you're seeing

0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:43.879
<v Speaker 1>the round as a physical test, that physical test really

0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:46.200
<v Speaker 1>comes to a head when you have to walk from

0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.799
<v Speaker 1>the fourteenth green straight up a hill to the fifteenth tee.

0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:53.480
<v Speaker 1>It's just like a final a final kick in the

0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:57.239
<v Speaker 1>nuts and a very tough stretch of golf. And I

0:39:57.280 --> 0:40:02.000
<v Speaker 1>remember standing up there, getting up there and then talking

0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:06.040
<v Speaker 1>to cameras down below about the elevated tea's and getting

0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:08.040
<v Speaker 1>a couple of sentences in and realizing I was out

0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:11.480
<v Speaker 1>of breath. It's like I'm losing I can't I can't

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:14.279
<v Speaker 1>finish this right now. Yeah, Like I need to I

0:40:14.320 --> 0:40:17.280
<v Speaker 1>need to take a moment to recover. So, yeah, it's

0:40:17.360 --> 0:40:18.200
<v Speaker 1>it's Burley.

0:40:18.360 --> 0:40:21.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is Burley. It is a uh that's why

0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>it's it's literally playing playing four tournament rounds there under

0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:30.080
<v Speaker 2>the conditions of the US Open. I think, like, you know,

0:40:30.280 --> 0:40:32.160
<v Speaker 2>like I'm not going to make any illusions of like

0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:34.680
<v Speaker 2>my career getting to any point, but I used to

0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:39.120
<v Speaker 2>play a lot of state ams, and the the repetition

0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:44.040
<v Speaker 2>of playing for you know, our state Am format was

0:40:44.120 --> 0:40:47.120
<v Speaker 2>thirty six holes the last day, but you know, even

0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:51.680
<v Speaker 2>going into the the third the third day, you know,

0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:54.239
<v Speaker 2>with the tea times, the way they work where your

0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:58.040
<v Speaker 2>afternoon morning like you are, you are fatigued, and a

0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:02.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of it's mental, you know, with tournament golf, but this,

0:41:02.160 --> 0:41:05.600
<v Speaker 2>this place is not. They just don't. They don't play

0:41:05.600 --> 0:41:08.360
<v Speaker 2>golf courses like this. And I know all these guys

0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:11.520
<v Speaker 2>work out a ton, but there is a taxing element

0:41:11.719 --> 0:41:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to to certain golf courses and this is one of them.

0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:18.560
<v Speaker 2>And like you you're gonna see, like like it's challenging

0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:24.200
<v Speaker 2>to just like maintain your golf swing physically for the

0:41:24.320 --> 0:41:27.280
<v Speaker 2>four days, and especially at a place where the razor's

0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:30.560
<v Speaker 2>edge is so.

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:31.959
<v Speaker 1>So narrow, Yeah, because then you have to hit these

0:41:32.080 --> 0:41:36.000
<v Speaker 1>these tough, high leverage shots right if you if you

0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:38.840
<v Speaker 1>if you don't get all the way through your swing

0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:40.839
<v Speaker 1>and and you block it out to the right, then

0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:43.520
<v Speaker 1>at Chinnacok you're you're going to be in some tall grass.

0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:47.439
<v Speaker 1>So it's uh, yeah, it's physically physically unforgiving for sure.

0:41:48.200 --> 0:41:50.520
<v Speaker 1>So my third thing, and this is kind of going

0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:55.640
<v Speaker 1>back to the nature Faker nickname, which I believe William

0:41:55.680 --> 0:42:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Flynn gave himself. So is is a little like a

0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:01.879
<v Speaker 1>little like King James.

0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Here and may I don't know if I like the

0:42:04.760 --> 0:42:06.280
<v Speaker 2>nature fake or nickname anymore.

0:42:08.000 --> 0:42:10.800
<v Speaker 1>I think he called himself that. I don't know. People

0:42:10.800 --> 0:42:13.040
<v Speaker 1>can fact check me out there, but that's that's what

0:42:13.280 --> 0:42:16.759
<v Speaker 1>at least what I had in my head. The thing

0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:18.360
<v Speaker 1>about it. We've talked about this a little bit, so

0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:23.640
<v Speaker 1>Alvey brief but unshowy naturalness is kind of for me

0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:28.000
<v Speaker 1>the key term in describing what Shinnacok Hills feels like.

0:42:28.920 --> 0:42:33.279
<v Speaker 1>It is not ostentatious about its architecture, about what it's

0:42:33.320 --> 0:42:38.799
<v Speaker 1>doing strategically, about its greatness. It is very lay of

0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:43.960
<v Speaker 1>the land, humble. It doesn't show you anything in bright lights,

0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:46.960
<v Speaker 1>the strategic elements, and the key landforms you have to

0:42:46.960 --> 0:42:50.120
<v Speaker 1>discover as you go along, because everything just appears to

0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:54.560
<v Speaker 1>be sitting on the land, hugging that dune land. And

0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:58.120
<v Speaker 1>I would say, of the American courses in its tier,

0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:01.839
<v Speaker 1>and it really it's pretty easy to talk about which

0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:05.879
<v Speaker 1>American golf courses are are in the tier of Shinnecock Hills,

0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:10.200
<v Speaker 1>it's a small group, right, It's Pine Valley, It's Augusta National,

0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Cypress Point, it's Oakmont, maybe it's you know, maybe you

0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:18.799
<v Speaker 1>put National in that group, Marion. You wouldn't go much

0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 1>farther than that sand Hills for for some modern representation.

0:43:25.840 --> 0:43:31.000
<v Speaker 1>I think among those courses, putting aside sand Hills, that

0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Shinnecock is probably the least flashy. And I don't necessarily

0:43:37.080 --> 0:43:39.759
<v Speaker 1>mean flashy in a negative way, Like you know, I'm

0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:42.160
<v Speaker 1>not saying Cypress Point is is all flash and no

0:43:42.239 --> 0:43:45.680
<v Speaker 1>substance or anything like that. But if you compare it

0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:49.879
<v Speaker 1>to Shinnocock Hills, Shinnecock Hills is much quieter, I think,

0:43:50.560 --> 0:43:53.759
<v Speaker 1>right that the bunkers are just kind of gouged out

0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:58.160
<v Speaker 1>of the landforms, and you know, the greens, except for

0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:01.960
<v Speaker 1>a few on the front nine are very much blended

0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:05.000
<v Speaker 1>into the landscape and and don't seem to be standing

0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:07.440
<v Speaker 1>up out of the landscape. Again, you know, seven is

0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:14.000
<v Speaker 1>an exception here, but unshowing naturalness is really Shinnecock Hills's

0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:19.360
<v Speaker 1>mode of operating. And I appreciate that so much because

0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:23.279
<v Speaker 1>it's you know, it's it's not a course that is

0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:28.000
<v Speaker 1>constantly arguing with you that it's great. It just is.

0:44:29.000 --> 0:44:32.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean I think that that there's like an

0:44:32.719 --> 0:44:36.640
<v Speaker 2>unshowing there's a lot of like ritzy aspects of Shinnakok

0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:39.480
<v Speaker 2>location based, you know, member.

0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:43.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it's make no mistake, this is one of

0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:45.320
<v Speaker 1>the most exclusive clubs in the country. It's not easy

0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:47.000
<v Speaker 1>to play there where I think you and I are

0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:47.920
<v Speaker 1>very cognizant of that.

0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:51.360
<v Speaker 2>But like the the other aspect of it is like

0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:54.760
<v Speaker 2>the clubhouse is what the clubhouse, This great Stanford White

0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:58.560
<v Speaker 2>clubhouse design clubhouse, it's you see it all over the way.

0:44:58.680 --> 0:45:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Is an iconic structure in the golf and in the

0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:04.920
<v Speaker 2>golf world. There's no ac in it, you know, like

0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:07.040
<v Speaker 2>there's like they're really basic.

0:45:07.239 --> 0:45:10.080
<v Speaker 1>It really does feel preserved, like you know, there are

0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:12.520
<v Speaker 1>all these old clubhouses in golf, but when you walk

0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:15.640
<v Speaker 1>into them, it's like, oh, this is modern, but you

0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:18.040
<v Speaker 1>walk into the Shinnacock Hills Clubhouse, you're like, oh, well,

0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:20.640
<v Speaker 1>this could kind of blow over and you know, in

0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:21.640
<v Speaker 1>a strong wind.

0:45:22.560 --> 0:45:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I feel like, yeah, I feel like Shinnacock and uh

0:45:25.600 --> 0:45:29.080
<v Speaker 2>in Chicago golf are kind of like that together in

0:45:29.120 --> 0:45:32.200
<v Speaker 2>the sense of like the way they just kind of

0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:37.319
<v Speaker 2>the golf is just like presented and it's they know,

0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:40.200
<v Speaker 2>there's like a confidence of like how good it is.

0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:43.399
<v Speaker 2>And this kind of goes to the clubhouse too, where

0:45:43.440 --> 0:45:46.040
<v Speaker 2>it's like it doesn't we don't need all the bells

0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:50.120
<v Speaker 2>and whistles. We know what we got is awesome, and

0:45:50.160 --> 0:45:52.920
<v Speaker 2>we just let it. Let it be it, you know.

0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:55.960
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's like the one of the things

0:45:56.040 --> 0:46:00.799
<v Speaker 2>I love about it too, is just like like they

0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:06.239
<v Speaker 2>know what they know the course and the club. The

0:46:06.320 --> 0:46:10.040
<v Speaker 2>course understands what the club understands what the course is,

0:46:10.880 --> 0:46:13.920
<v Speaker 2>and there's there's never been an attempt to make the

0:46:14.040 --> 0:46:16.640
<v Speaker 2>course like something that it isn't.

0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:22.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, And this extends as you're as you're implying

0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:27.359
<v Speaker 1>to conditioning agronomy, right, the grasses at Shinnecock Hills are

0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:33.720
<v Speaker 1>old weathered, seasoned grasses. The fairways are not a mono stand.

0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:37.880
<v Speaker 1>The greens are are poa but sort of like Oakmont.

0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:40.960
<v Speaker 1>It's it's Shinnecock po I mean, this is like, you know,

0:46:41.480 --> 0:46:46.520
<v Speaker 1>its own version of poe Anua and uh so, yeah.

0:46:46.840 --> 0:46:50.160
<v Speaker 1>It extends to the conditioning, to where where the maintenance

0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:53.080
<v Speaker 1>crew is not trying to do anything to show you

0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:55.080
<v Speaker 1>that this is one of the greatest golf courses in

0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:56.959
<v Speaker 1>the world. It's just letting the land be the land

0:46:57.000 --> 0:46:59.239
<v Speaker 1>and the turf be the turf, and and yeah, that's

0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:02.440
<v Speaker 1>that's just that. That's something I really crave out of

0:47:02.480 --> 0:47:06.200
<v Speaker 1>golf courses because so many places have gone the modern

0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:09.520
<v Speaker 1>high tech route at this point. In those respects, Shinnacock

0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:10.239
<v Speaker 1>has resisted that.

0:47:12.280 --> 0:47:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, they it's it's it's it's a course that

0:47:16.480 --> 0:47:20.080
<v Speaker 2>feels old, which is rare. You know. I think like

0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:23.480
<v Speaker 2>you could look at other courses in the same breath

0:47:23.520 --> 0:47:26.760
<v Speaker 2>as it, and very few of them feel the way

0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:29.640
<v Speaker 2>that Shinnakock feels. And maybe some people don't like the

0:47:29.800 --> 0:47:35.440
<v Speaker 2>old nature of it. My final thing just about the

0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:40.920
<v Speaker 2>broad you know, kind of aspects of history, aspects of Shinnacock.

0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:45.480
<v Speaker 2>It goes to the history is a little bit of

0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:48.000
<v Speaker 2>on the design and a little bit of of Shinnacock.

0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Like they were very progressive about women and golf in

0:47:53.400 --> 0:47:57.640
<v Speaker 2>an era that wasn't progressive. They had female members from

0:47:57.680 --> 0:48:02.160
<v Speaker 2>like basically the start of the club, which most clubs

0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:08.120
<v Speaker 2>then did not. They hosted the nineteen hundred US Women's Amateur,

0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:12.560
<v Speaker 2>which you know, it's cool that they have a US

0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Women's Open coming back there for the first time and

0:48:15.800 --> 0:48:18.799
<v Speaker 2>ever I think is the first ever US Women's Open

0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:22.560
<v Speaker 2>in the coming years. But like the idea that women

0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:25.640
<v Speaker 2>were an integral part of this club from the beginning,

0:48:25.680 --> 0:48:27.919
<v Speaker 2>but you see it in the design. What I think

0:48:28.000 --> 0:48:32.160
<v Speaker 2>is fascinating is like this is arguably the hardest golf

0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:35.320
<v Speaker 2>course in the world for the best men golfers in

0:48:36.160 --> 0:48:40.600
<v Speaker 2>the world. But if you took a low trajectory player,

0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:43.319
<v Speaker 2>someone that doesn't have a lot of speed, maybe it's

0:48:43.360 --> 0:48:50.480
<v Speaker 2>in an older, older person or a female golfer. You know,

0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:54.880
<v Speaker 2>it's neighbor famous neighbor. National Golf Links is renowned for

0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:58.319
<v Speaker 2>being this fun place to play. It's way more fun

0:48:58.360 --> 0:49:00.800
<v Speaker 2>to play than Shinnakok because, like you know, there's a

0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:03.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of these features, these bulls and you know, it's

0:49:03.560 --> 0:49:07.200
<v Speaker 2>a little bit more friendly. It doesn't reject as much stuff. Now,

0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:09.879
<v Speaker 2>if you took a low trajectory player, they would tell

0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:14.440
<v Speaker 2>you Shinnacock is more playable than National Golf Links. So

0:49:14.560 --> 0:49:17.200
<v Speaker 2>you have these two iconic golf courses right next to

0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:20.920
<v Speaker 2>each other, and the interesting aspect of Shinnecock Hills. And

0:49:20.960 --> 0:49:23.200
<v Speaker 2>this is not meant to be a slight at National

0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Golf Links, but Shinnecock Hills achieves this high bar of

0:49:28.000 --> 0:49:32.920
<v Speaker 2>being more playable for you know, someone who can't hit

0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:35.360
<v Speaker 2>the ball more than one hundred and eighty yards. Let's

0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:40.520
<v Speaker 2>just say then the next door neighbor, while also being

0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:48.160
<v Speaker 2>the sternest test of men's high level men's golf in America.

0:49:48.840 --> 0:49:53.080
<v Speaker 2>And to me, that is spectacular.

0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:56.560
<v Speaker 1>There's some commonalities with Pinehurst number two.

0:49:56.520 --> 0:50:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Here where open front appro Yeah.

0:50:01.600 --> 0:50:05.279
<v Speaker 1>Lots of short grass, firm so you can kind of

0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:07.239
<v Speaker 1>bounce your ball along the fairway as long as you're

0:50:07.280 --> 0:50:10.000
<v Speaker 1>not as long as you're not getting off corridor on

0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:13.200
<v Speaker 1>either of those courses Pinehurst number two or Shinnacock Hills,

0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:16.360
<v Speaker 1>you're probably going to be in pretty good shape. And

0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:19.680
<v Speaker 1>it's yeah, I mean, it's an the formula is there

0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:23.120
<v Speaker 1>like we know what to do, no cross hazards, you know,

0:50:23.400 --> 0:50:26.839
<v Speaker 1>all that kind of stuff. It's there are courses where

0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:31.200
<v Speaker 1>the biggest trouble you can get into is when you

0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:34.120
<v Speaker 1>hit it too far on the wrong line, or you

0:50:34.200 --> 0:50:38.480
<v Speaker 1>make too aggressive of a decision and you go after it.

0:50:38.520 --> 0:50:40.680
<v Speaker 1>But you're not going to get in much trouble just

0:50:40.760 --> 0:50:45.319
<v Speaker 1>dinking and along the ground. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, And

0:50:45.360 --> 0:50:47.799
<v Speaker 1>that's another thing that evolved. I mean, if we see

0:50:47.840 --> 0:50:50.560
<v Speaker 1>Shinnecock as a representation of the evolution of American golf

0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:54.600
<v Speaker 1>architecture that evolved in the thinking about golf course design

0:50:54.680 --> 0:50:58.759
<v Speaker 1>from the eighteen nineties to the nineteen twenties, where the

0:50:58.800 --> 0:51:02.160
<v Speaker 1>thinking early on was we want to punish the dinked

0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:05.680
<v Speaker 1>shot the most. That is the worst shot, therefore it

0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:08.720
<v Speaker 1>should receive the worst punishment. Well, by the time William

0:51:08.760 --> 0:51:13.560
<v Speaker 1>Flynn comes along and designs today's Shinnecock Hills, the prevailing philosophy,

0:51:13.640 --> 0:51:17.480
<v Speaker 1>or at least the smartest philosophy among the best architects,

0:51:18.239 --> 0:51:21.200
<v Speaker 1>was that you don't worry about punishing those shots because

0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:23.439
<v Speaker 1>there's no point. You know, people who play that way

0:51:23.560 --> 0:51:27.319
<v Speaker 1>or are going to have it, you know, presumably they're

0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:30.120
<v Speaker 1>they're not gonna set the course record anyway, and so

0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:32.880
<v Speaker 1>we might as well focus on challenging the really good shot.

0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:36.640
<v Speaker 1>And that's what both number two in Shinnacock do so well.

0:51:45.880 --> 0:51:48.880
<v Speaker 2>All Right, we got the three things done. Before we

0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:51.520
<v Speaker 2>get into more in depth on the golf course, Let's

0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:54.960
<v Speaker 2>take a quick break for our partners on audio devices

0:51:55.040 --> 0:52:08.239
<v Speaker 2>on YouTube, will keep rolling. What makes Hinnacock so beguiling

0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:10.760
<v Speaker 2>to the world's best players.

0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:15.319
<v Speaker 1>It's obviously a combination of factors. But the way I

0:52:15.320 --> 0:52:18.560
<v Speaker 1>would sum it up sum it up is that everything

0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:23.520
<v Speaker 1>about this place keeps a good player off kilter. So

0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:28.239
<v Speaker 1>it's the elements. It's the firmness of the turf, the

0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:33.600
<v Speaker 1>soils combined with the turf presentation. It's the exposure to

0:52:33.680 --> 0:52:36.839
<v Speaker 1>the elements. When we were playing at Chinnakok, a number

0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:39.680
<v Speaker 1>of times you were kind of looking around the surrounding

0:52:39.719 --> 0:52:43.359
<v Speaker 1>area and saying, I think this is the highest point, right.

0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:46.880
<v Speaker 1>I think there's no place immediately around the golf course

0:52:46.920 --> 0:52:49.960
<v Speaker 1>that is higher than where you are on like thirteen

0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:55.920
<v Speaker 1>T And that means that you catch the full brunt

0:52:56.239 --> 0:52:59.479
<v Speaker 1>of the wind at Shinnacock, especially on the back nine.

0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:02.640
<v Speaker 1>It's the volatility of the golf course, the fact that

0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:05.160
<v Speaker 1>it can change so much from the beginning of the

0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:07.560
<v Speaker 1>round to the end of the round. The course can

0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:13.440
<v Speaker 1>turn on the kind of slightest provocation from dryness and wind.

0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:15.560
<v Speaker 1>All of a sudden, you go from a course that

0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:18.200
<v Speaker 1>might be relatively docile to a great player to a

0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:21.200
<v Speaker 1>course that absolutely doesn't give you anything, and the greens

0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:24.240
<v Speaker 1>are browning out and every shot is battling the wind.

0:53:25.600 --> 0:53:30.160
<v Speaker 1>And I think all of those kind of natural characteristics

0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:34.000
<v Speaker 1>of Shinnacock that keep good players off kilter are matched

0:53:34.040 --> 0:53:38.720
<v Speaker 1>with design elements that also keep good players off kilter.

0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:43.160
<v Speaker 1>So nothing at Shinnacock is straightforward. Nothing is linear. It's

0:53:43.200 --> 0:53:47.640
<v Speaker 1>always diagonal. You always have to match line with speed,

0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:51.080
<v Speaker 1>both on your putts and on your full shots. You

0:53:51.160 --> 0:53:55.440
<v Speaker 1>can't just bash it straight down a whole corridor and say,

0:53:55.760 --> 0:53:59.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's okay if this goes two hundred and

0:53:59.320 --> 0:54:01.640
<v Speaker 1>seventy five yards. Are three hundred and twenty five yards

0:54:02.120 --> 0:54:04.560
<v Speaker 1>as long as I stay on this line. No, you

0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:07.160
<v Speaker 1>have to be more specific about the distance that you're

0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:10.000
<v Speaker 1>hitting your shots and the line that you're taking to

0:54:10.440 --> 0:54:15.080
<v Speaker 1>hit that distance. The greens are always kind of tilted

0:54:15.200 --> 0:54:20.920
<v Speaker 1>or angled, or doing something that is unexpected or destabilizing,

0:54:21.440 --> 0:54:23.760
<v Speaker 1>and so you know, I think it's a course where

0:54:24.560 --> 0:54:30.400
<v Speaker 1>everything about it is is slightly askew, and it just

0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:34.880
<v Speaker 1>makes good players uncomfortable because they can't settle into a groove.

0:54:35.960 --> 0:54:42.320
<v Speaker 2>There's definitely an element of where you play safe repeatedly

0:54:42.520 --> 0:54:47.880
<v Speaker 2>puts you then in a very difficult next position because

0:54:47.920 --> 0:54:52.319
<v Speaker 2>of angle and orientation of greens, even when you're in

0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:55.759
<v Speaker 2>the fairway, but if you're on the wrong side, you know,

0:54:55.880 --> 0:55:01.080
<v Speaker 2>inevitably that shot gets more challenging. And with the firmness

0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:04.680
<v Speaker 2>and the wind, like you know, sometimes you get in

0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:08.040
<v Speaker 2>these positions where it's like, okay, I need to shade,

0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:10.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, especially with modern golf strategy, I need to

0:55:10.800 --> 0:55:16.600
<v Speaker 2>shade over here the aspect of shinnakok. That is, you know,

0:55:16.680 --> 0:55:19.759
<v Speaker 2>when you do that, you then put yourself where the

0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:24.840
<v Speaker 2>degree of the next shot is inherently way more difficult.

0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:28.239
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, Okay, I took the easy route here,

0:55:28.760 --> 0:55:31.279
<v Speaker 2>but you don't. It's not you know, I think like

0:55:32.040 --> 0:55:35.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, I I I believe a lot in the

0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:41.080
<v Speaker 2>course management strategies that are employed by by PGA tour

0:55:41.160 --> 0:55:45.520
<v Speaker 2>players on most weeks, but I think what the greatest

0:55:45.560 --> 0:55:49.840
<v Speaker 2>golf courses do is that they they are outliers and

0:55:49.880 --> 0:55:53.440
<v Speaker 2>they don't necessarily always fit exactly the way the data

0:55:53.480 --> 0:55:58.400
<v Speaker 2>sets say that they fit because TPC Craig Ranch is

0:55:58.400 --> 0:56:01.440
<v Speaker 2>not Shinnecock Hills and most of the data comes from

0:56:01.440 --> 0:56:04.600
<v Speaker 2>golf courses of the ilk of TPC Craig Ranch that

0:56:04.880 --> 0:56:08.279
<v Speaker 2>instructs players how to play. Now, I'm not saying like

0:56:08.600 --> 0:56:12.280
<v Speaker 2>hug lines and do that, but it's just the sheer

0:56:12.360 --> 0:56:16.480
<v Speaker 2>understanding of when I when I take the easy route,

0:56:17.080 --> 0:56:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm now presented with a shot that is decimal points

0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:25.319
<v Speaker 2>more difficult on the back end of it. So you know,

0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:28.400
<v Speaker 2>there is a real cause and effect there. And I

0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:30.720
<v Speaker 2>think like one of the things that you you brushed

0:56:30.719 --> 0:56:33.560
<v Speaker 2>on the elements and and you live in the Pacific Northwest.

0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:38.560
<v Speaker 2>I used to live out out there, buddy, of Iya.

0:56:39.520 --> 0:56:40.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't I don't know. I don't know if I'm

0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:44.720
<v Speaker 1>going to let that go by San Francisco, Pacific Northwest.

0:56:45.320 --> 0:56:47.279
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm trying to sneak it by you. But

0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:49.320
<v Speaker 2>I met more on the coast.

0:56:50.320 --> 0:56:53.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, no, I get what. Yeah, San Francisco weather

0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:55.920
<v Speaker 1>is not too dissimilar from from Oregon. Weather just we

0:56:55.960 --> 0:56:57.000
<v Speaker 1>get more rain up here.

0:56:57.400 --> 0:57:00.760
<v Speaker 2>So I you know, my first year there, buddy of mine,

0:57:00.840 --> 0:57:03.919
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I just can't believe these rainstorms out

0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:08.040
<v Speaker 2>here that you get where it just torrentially range three

0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:11.759
<v Speaker 2>days straight and you're just like, it's like kind of

0:57:11.760 --> 0:57:15.200
<v Speaker 2>a ridiculous proposition for somebody who didn't who had never

0:57:15.320 --> 0:57:19.200
<v Speaker 2>really experienced that. And a buddy of mine was like, well,

0:57:19.280 --> 0:57:23.479
<v Speaker 2>that's what happens when there's nothing stopping weather for five

0:57:23.600 --> 0:57:27.440
<v Speaker 2>thousand miles, you know, is you get these huge storms.

0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:31.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The ocean is a source of volatility, right, it is,

0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:36.000
<v Speaker 1>and that's and that's where that's the that's the foundation

0:57:36.120 --> 0:57:40.120
<v Speaker 1>of golf, right you know Scottish people, that is golf.

0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:43.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so if you look at Shittacock, it is this

0:57:43.600 --> 0:57:46.640
<v Speaker 2>is golf when when a golf course is ninety miles

0:57:46.680 --> 0:57:50.680
<v Speaker 2>out into an ocean and there's nothing around it that

0:57:50.880 --> 0:57:54.080
<v Speaker 2>slows anything down because of the way it sits up,

0:57:54.600 --> 0:57:57.680
<v Speaker 2>and it just is you're exposed. You're out in the

0:57:58.120 --> 0:58:02.800
<v Speaker 2>in the ocean, and the golf course is just so

0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:09.640
<v Speaker 2>that aspect of it is so different than everything else

0:58:10.160 --> 0:58:13.280
<v Speaker 2>that these guys generally play. You know, I think it's

0:58:13.280 --> 0:58:16.800
<v Speaker 2>always interesting the tournament. The tournament, the PGA to our

0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:20.320
<v Speaker 2>hosts in bermudas always actually a really fun watch because

0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:25.080
<v Speaker 2>it's golf in ocean and like sure enough, like you

0:58:25.160 --> 0:58:27.680
<v Speaker 2>get these crazy weather days where the guys are just

0:58:27.760 --> 0:58:31.880
<v Speaker 2>hitting like punch shots like last year. Shinnacock brings that

0:58:32.160 --> 0:58:36.240
<v Speaker 2>to a US Open, which is the sternest test of golf.

0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:42.120
<v Speaker 2>And it's this very refined, championship style golf course that

0:58:42.240 --> 0:58:45.880
<v Speaker 2>is just it has the soils in terms of what

0:58:45.880 --> 0:58:50.040
<v Speaker 2>we're saying is sand which creates bouncy environment, also a

0:58:50.080 --> 0:58:53.800
<v Speaker 2>porous environment that dries really quickly. So you get the sand,

0:58:54.280 --> 0:58:57.280
<v Speaker 2>you get the turf dialed in, you get the wind,

0:58:57.480 --> 0:59:00.680
<v Speaker 2>and then you get the natural undulation of the golf

0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:04.800
<v Speaker 2>course and they combine with that golf course design just

0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:09.439
<v Speaker 2>create this beast that is that like every shot has

0:59:09.480 --> 0:59:12.560
<v Speaker 2>an implication as you were you said, like he puts

0:59:12.560 --> 0:59:18.440
<v Speaker 2>you off kilter. The only way to make your next

0:59:18.440 --> 0:59:21.080
<v Speaker 2>shot in you know, golf, a lot of times, you know,

0:59:22.200 --> 0:59:25.480
<v Speaker 2>it's like setting up your next shot, similar to pool

0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:29.440
<v Speaker 2>or stuff. The only way to get yourself an on

0:59:29.720 --> 0:59:36.640
<v Speaker 2>kilter shot shot is to do something uncomfortable. Now, yeah, sometimes.

0:59:36.160 --> 0:59:41.320
<v Speaker 1>You can or the lie. You have to earn those things.

0:59:41.280 --> 0:59:44.080
<v Speaker 2>And sometimes you can get those. You can achieve those

0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:47.200
<v Speaker 2>by missing, by taking a safe target line and missing,

0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:52.440
<v Speaker 2>and you achieve that. But at Shittacock, if you answer

0:59:52.840 --> 0:59:56.680
<v Speaker 2>the question, the very hard question they're asking off the t,

0:59:57.400 --> 1:00:00.800
<v Speaker 2>you set yourself up for a much e easier road

1:00:01.000 --> 1:00:04.760
<v Speaker 2>in the issue with golf in the way that you know,

1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:07.720
<v Speaker 2>not the issue, but just the natural thinking of golf

1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:12.520
<v Speaker 2>in generally speaking, the better the golfer, and this is

1:00:12.600 --> 1:00:16.160
<v Speaker 2>I think what a lot of you know, uh, recreational

1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:21.000
<v Speaker 2>players don't understand. The better the golfer, the more conservative

1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:25.080
<v Speaker 2>the golfer is because they understand they run into Bertie's

1:00:25.200 --> 1:00:27.720
<v Speaker 2>and they if they just do things that avoid bogies,

1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:32.360
<v Speaker 2>you are going to play good rounds at Shinnacock. When

1:00:32.400 --> 1:00:36.760
<v Speaker 2>you play very conservatively, you end up with a lot

1:00:36.920 --> 1:00:43.240
<v Speaker 2>of high degree stressful situations from perfect lies that lead

1:00:43.720 --> 1:00:48.280
<v Speaker 2>to eventual bogies. So it is a that's where I

1:00:48.320 --> 1:00:51.520
<v Speaker 2>think this golf course, you know, it just has it

1:00:52.160 --> 1:00:55.680
<v Speaker 2>presents and Augusta does this to a certain extent where

1:00:55.760 --> 1:00:59.040
<v Speaker 2>if you're just in certain spots, you cannot go anywhere

1:00:59.120 --> 1:01:03.280
<v Speaker 2>near whole locations at shittacock. It is just because of

1:01:03.320 --> 1:01:06.080
<v Speaker 2>the elements of the wind. You're just presented with this

1:01:06.400 --> 1:01:07.720
<v Speaker 2>all day long.

1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:11.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it's really informative to look at how

1:01:11.960 --> 1:01:15.800
<v Speaker 1>brooks Kopka played the course in twenty eighteen. You know,

1:01:15.880 --> 1:01:20.840
<v Speaker 1>his Sunday round is available shot by shot on YouTube.

1:01:20.920 --> 1:01:24.200
<v Speaker 1>I rewatched it recently, and the thing that struck me

1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:27.200
<v Speaker 1>was how many irons he hit off the tee. He

1:01:27.280 --> 1:01:31.600
<v Speaker 1>was just bludgeoning that Nike driving iron that he had

1:01:31.640 --> 1:01:34.320
<v Speaker 1>in the bag for a long time. You just muscling

1:01:34.360 --> 1:01:36.480
<v Speaker 1>that thing out into the fair way. And yeah, he

1:01:36.560 --> 1:01:38.200
<v Speaker 1>was hitting it as long as a lot of guys

1:01:38.240 --> 1:01:41.600
<v Speaker 1>hit their drivers, which I mean, it's a major advantage

1:01:41.880 --> 1:01:45.360
<v Speaker 1>when you can do that, but that was his primary tactic.

1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:48.200
<v Speaker 1>He really didn't hit that many drivers, at least not

1:01:48.280 --> 1:01:50.840
<v Speaker 1>as many drivers as you would expect brooks Kepka to hit,

1:01:51.840 --> 1:01:57.920
<v Speaker 1>but he obviously saw an advantage in clubbing down to

1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:01.640
<v Speaker 1>that driving iron and just being able to determine a

1:02:01.680 --> 1:02:05.920
<v Speaker 1>little more finally where he was in in the fairway.

1:02:06.240 --> 1:02:09.200
<v Speaker 1>And uh, and that's that that's the advantage that I

1:02:09.200 --> 1:02:12.280
<v Speaker 1>think one of the us opened because in other respects,

1:02:12.280 --> 1:02:15.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, his final round was just kind of okay,

1:02:15.320 --> 1:02:18.560
<v Speaker 1>mostly he missed some pot seat. You know, he wasn't

1:02:18.640 --> 1:02:21.040
<v Speaker 1>lights out or anything like that, but he just had

1:02:21.080 --> 1:02:24.880
<v Speaker 1>that incremental advantage every time he hit that driving iron

1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:27.400
<v Speaker 1>and it found the fairway and and he was in

1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:30.560
<v Speaker 1>a position that other guys, uh, you know, had to

1:02:30.600 --> 1:02:34.080
<v Speaker 1>get to by by hitting driver and uh and that's uh,

1:02:34.480 --> 1:02:36.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, that's that's kind of a formula at at

1:02:36.760 --> 1:02:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Chinnacock for success. So I would yeah, I mean, I'm

1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:42.680
<v Speaker 1>I did choose John Ron for that John Ron for

1:02:42.680 --> 1:02:44.920
<v Speaker 1>the PGA Championship. So people maybe should listen to my

1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:48.160
<v Speaker 1>listen to my prognostications and and my touts and my

1:02:48.440 --> 1:02:50.479
<v Speaker 1>you know whatever else. You know. I mean, maybe I'm

1:02:50.800 --> 1:02:52.800
<v Speaker 1>maybe I'm gambling boy who knows, uh.

1:02:53.320 --> 1:02:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Golf might be one of the preeminent gambling podcasts.

1:02:57.360 --> 1:03:00.400
<v Speaker 1>Might be he might be supplanting shotguns start coming up here, guys,

1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:01.600
<v Speaker 1>you better watch out.

1:03:03.400 --> 1:03:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I think, like, yeah, I think a hole, uh you know,

1:03:06.320 --> 1:03:08.800
<v Speaker 2>to the to the point of what we're talking about here,

1:03:08.960 --> 1:03:11.840
<v Speaker 2>a hole that represents this well that like I saw

1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:15.040
<v Speaker 2>on media day, really play out for me. It was

1:03:15.040 --> 1:03:16.800
<v Speaker 2>playing into the wind, and the wind was off the

1:03:16.920 --> 1:03:21.240
<v Speaker 2>left was the was the sixth hole, which is a longer,

1:03:21.480 --> 1:03:23.800
<v Speaker 2>longer part for and I wanted to get into some

1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:27.160
<v Speaker 2>like individual holes, and I think this might might be

1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:32.080
<v Speaker 2>a good jumping off point here as well. So the

1:03:32.600 --> 1:03:35.600
<v Speaker 2>sixth hole is a really it's on you know, some

1:03:35.640 --> 1:03:40.200
<v Speaker 2>of the flatter land at at Shinnacok it's more docile land.

1:03:40.200 --> 1:03:42.880
<v Speaker 2>But it's got a really unique t shot where it's

1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:45.440
<v Speaker 2>half of it's blind. You can see the left half

1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:48.640
<v Speaker 2>of the fairway. Uh, the right half of the fairway

1:03:48.800 --> 1:03:52.120
<v Speaker 2>is over the sand dune and you have the sandy

1:03:52.120 --> 1:03:55.320
<v Speaker 2>waste that cuts in and like you know, you don't

1:03:55.360 --> 1:03:58.160
<v Speaker 2>want to be over there, So your natural inclination is

1:03:58.200 --> 1:04:00.760
<v Speaker 2>always to play to the left, to the fairway that

1:04:00.840 --> 1:04:04.960
<v Speaker 2>you can see, and particularly depending on how the wind is.

1:04:05.000 --> 1:04:08.960
<v Speaker 2>But this green, the way it orients, the green accepts

1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:12.959
<v Speaker 2>shots really well from the right side of the fairway. Yeah,

1:04:13.040 --> 1:04:16.080
<v Speaker 2>And because of this hole's length and just the way

1:04:16.160 --> 1:04:18.880
<v Speaker 2>it fits in, you're gonna be hitting a lot of

1:04:19.000 --> 1:04:21.960
<v Speaker 2>mid mid irons into this green depending on the wind

1:04:22.800 --> 1:04:27.720
<v Speaker 2>and and you know, irons of somewhat consequence. If you're

1:04:27.720 --> 1:04:30.520
<v Speaker 2>from the right side, the green is pretty big and

1:04:30.560 --> 1:04:32.960
<v Speaker 2>it's a pretty big target. Now if you play safe

1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:36.720
<v Speaker 2>to the left, all of a sudden you're hitting across

1:04:36.800 --> 1:04:41.400
<v Speaker 2>this green axis and there's a you know, there's you know,

1:04:41.400 --> 1:04:44.560
<v Speaker 2>people always talk about false fronts. They this I would

1:04:44.600 --> 1:04:47.680
<v Speaker 2>call a false edge is on the right side of

1:04:47.720 --> 1:04:51.560
<v Speaker 2>the green, and that false edge then comes into it

1:04:51.600 --> 1:04:55.120
<v Speaker 2>when you're playing directionally across the axis of the green,

1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:58.560
<v Speaker 2>which is from the safe side of the fairway. This

1:04:58.880 --> 1:05:02.000
<v Speaker 2>you have to carry a bar bunker from that left side,

1:05:02.040 --> 1:05:04.280
<v Speaker 2>and then the right side of the green falls off.

1:05:04.760 --> 1:05:08.120
<v Speaker 2>If you're playing from the right side, the green is

1:05:08.320 --> 1:05:11.320
<v Speaker 2>open in the front. The false edge is yeah there,

1:05:11.320 --> 1:05:13.800
<v Speaker 2>it's on the right, but you don't have to navigate

1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:19.360
<v Speaker 2>the bunker. So it presents the situation where like, yeah,

1:05:19.800 --> 1:05:24.080
<v Speaker 2>the t shot is really uncomfortable to push right, but

1:05:24.280 --> 1:05:28.760
<v Speaker 2>if I don't do that and I play safe, then

1:05:28.800 --> 1:05:33.240
<v Speaker 2>I get the really uncomfortable second shot to navigate. So

1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:37.200
<v Speaker 2>it's putting you constantly in this position of like yeah,

1:05:37.240 --> 1:05:40.120
<v Speaker 2>I can play safe, but almost every time that you

1:05:40.240 --> 1:05:47.120
<v Speaker 2>play safe, you are then given a shot. And they

1:05:47.160 --> 1:05:51.000
<v Speaker 2>do this really with like simplistic slope, and it's similar

1:05:51.360 --> 1:05:54.720
<v Speaker 2>like ironomic. I think everybody had this like awakening with

1:05:54.840 --> 1:05:58.960
<v Speaker 2>the greens of like Wow, slope is really effective in

1:05:59.000 --> 1:06:03.720
<v Speaker 2>particular firm slope and what Shinnacock always does to you,

1:06:04.080 --> 1:06:06.680
<v Speaker 2>and in a great example of this as the sixth hole,

1:06:07.240 --> 1:06:11.720
<v Speaker 2>is that firm slope, angles and angles in the green

1:06:13.520 --> 1:06:16.880
<v Speaker 2>create all the hazards you need to make a very

1:06:16.880 --> 1:06:20.520
<v Speaker 2>interesting hole. And like, yeah, you can make birdie, you

1:06:20.560 --> 1:06:23.560
<v Speaker 2>can make par from the left, but it's much more

1:06:23.600 --> 1:06:27.080
<v Speaker 2>difficult than if you if you place a ball on

1:06:27.120 --> 1:06:27.439
<v Speaker 2>the right.

1:06:29.120 --> 1:06:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, I think that when you're trying to unlock the

1:06:34.480 --> 1:06:38.440
<v Speaker 1>strategic angles at Shinnecock Hills, understand those and how they

1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:41.960
<v Speaker 1>relate to the green designs. Don't look at what's in

1:06:42.160 --> 1:06:45.600
<v Speaker 1>front of the green, although that is interesting in itself,

1:06:46.920 --> 1:06:49.600
<v Speaker 1>I think what's more relevant at Shinnecock Hills is what's

1:06:49.640 --> 1:06:57.160
<v Speaker 1>behind the greens, where the big punitive runoffs are. And basically,

1:06:57.240 --> 1:07:01.920
<v Speaker 1>the advantageous angle is where you're not hitting in to

1:07:02.160 --> 1:07:08.400
<v Speaker 1>that big runoff or ledge that is in your line. Right,

1:07:09.720 --> 1:07:13.800
<v Speaker 1>the advantageous angle is where you can play a shot

1:07:13.920 --> 1:07:18.240
<v Speaker 1>that isn't traveling toward that feature. So if you just

1:07:18.280 --> 1:07:21.720
<v Speaker 1>stand behind Shinnecock's greens and kind of look at where's

1:07:21.720 --> 1:07:24.680
<v Speaker 1>the worst place to be, where's the most severe drop

1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:28.600
<v Speaker 1>off here, then you can kind of line up from

1:07:28.640 --> 1:07:32.040
<v Speaker 1>that drop off to what the disadvantageous part of the

1:07:32.040 --> 1:07:35.479
<v Speaker 1>fairway is. And on the sixth hole, if you line

1:07:35.560 --> 1:07:38.000
<v Speaker 1>up that drop off, you're going to be pointing at

1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:40.240
<v Speaker 1>that left side of the fairway, which is the only

1:07:41.040 --> 1:07:44.440
<v Speaker 1>visible portion of the fairway from the tee. So if

1:07:44.440 --> 1:07:46.160
<v Speaker 1>you want to avoid that, then you have to play

1:07:46.160 --> 1:07:48.200
<v Speaker 1>out to the right where there's all this, you know,

1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:50.960
<v Speaker 1>as you mentioned, all this sandy waste area and it's blind,

1:07:52.200 --> 1:07:56.439
<v Speaker 1>so classic strategic stuff. But for me at Shinnecock it's

1:07:56.520 --> 1:07:59.080
<v Speaker 1>less about I mean, the internal contours of the greens

1:07:59.080 --> 1:08:02.640
<v Speaker 1>are there, but it's not like Augusta National, you know,

1:08:02.680 --> 1:08:06.040
<v Speaker 1>it's mostly like broad slopes and tilts that are relevant

1:08:06.960 --> 1:08:10.200
<v Speaker 1>where so much of the action is on Shinnecock Hills

1:08:10.240 --> 1:08:15.160
<v Speaker 1>greens is on the exterior and especially in the back

1:08:15.200 --> 1:08:18.240
<v Speaker 1>of the green. That for me is really what determines

1:08:18.320 --> 1:08:21.040
<v Speaker 1>so many of the strategic angles. And it's the same

1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:24.320
<v Speaker 1>case on the fifth hole right. For me, the fifth

1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:27.639
<v Speaker 1>and sixth holes are connoisseur's corner at Shinnakok Hills.

1:08:27.680 --> 1:08:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Before we get to five, something I want to point

1:08:31.120 --> 1:08:35.360
<v Speaker 2>out and you brought up Brooks the way he played Shinnacock.

1:08:36.080 --> 1:08:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Just an interesting ancdote with what you just said about

1:08:39.000 --> 1:08:42.519
<v Speaker 2>like stand behind the green, look at the features. The

1:08:42.560 --> 1:08:46.360
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty three US Open at la CC, he had

1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:51.240
<v Speaker 2>just won oak Hill and a reporter asked him about

1:08:51.320 --> 1:08:54.400
<v Speaker 2>how does he break down a golf course? How does

1:08:54.439 --> 1:08:56.880
<v Speaker 2>he figure out how to play a golf course? You

1:08:56.920 --> 1:09:00.320
<v Speaker 2>know what he said, I stand on the back to

1:09:00.360 --> 1:09:03.360
<v Speaker 2>the green and I work it out from there. The greens.

1:09:03.640 --> 1:09:06.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't have the exact quote up, but

1:09:06.280 --> 1:09:09.519
<v Speaker 2>he effectively said, the greens tell me exactly where I

1:09:09.600 --> 1:09:12.840
<v Speaker 2>want to be to approach the green, To approach the green,

1:09:13.160 --> 1:09:15.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, he and he I think he went on

1:09:15.320 --> 1:09:18.160
<v Speaker 2>to say something along the lines of like, at these

1:09:18.200 --> 1:09:23.160
<v Speaker 2>really hard golf courses, angles really are important to like

1:09:23.400 --> 1:09:26.640
<v Speaker 2>playing well. And you know this is contrary to a

1:09:26.640 --> 1:09:28.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of statistfic statisticians.

1:09:29.560 --> 1:09:31.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean that the data boys were down bad with

1:09:31.479 --> 1:09:32.679
<v Speaker 1>that quote. I mean that was.

1:09:34.360 --> 1:09:37.559
<v Speaker 2>But here it is at the at the time, you know,

1:09:37.920 --> 1:09:40.120
<v Speaker 2>the you know, the guy that had just rantled off

1:09:40.240 --> 1:09:44.040
<v Speaker 2>five majors in a really quick clip at some of

1:09:44.040 --> 1:09:46.960
<v Speaker 2>the toughest golf courses in the world. Including Shittacok, like

1:09:47.040 --> 1:09:51.600
<v Speaker 2>he gave a lens into how he how he understood

1:09:51.840 --> 1:09:55.360
<v Speaker 2>these golf courses and it succeeded and ended up on top.

1:09:55.720 --> 1:09:58.559
<v Speaker 2>And it's understanding from the back the back of the

1:09:58.600 --> 1:10:02.879
<v Speaker 2>hole like when you and on shinnakock'screens. It's very simple,

1:10:03.640 --> 1:10:08.519
<v Speaker 2>but it's just incredibly hard to achieve what they're asking

1:10:08.560 --> 1:10:11.880
<v Speaker 2>you because you have to do something uncomfortable from the

1:10:11.920 --> 1:10:12.639
<v Speaker 2>start of the hole.

1:10:13.520 --> 1:10:18.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, And you know, as far as holes

1:10:18.520 --> 1:10:23.200
<v Speaker 1>to notice are concerned at Shinnakawk, I think that you know,

1:10:23.240 --> 1:10:26.479
<v Speaker 1>you'll also see these dynamics that we're talking about on

1:10:27.040 --> 1:10:28.960
<v Speaker 1>the tenth hole, which is probably going to get a

1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:31.560
<v Speaker 1>lot of coverage on the telecast. You know, blind t

1:10:31.720 --> 1:10:33.800
<v Speaker 1>shot and you basically have the choice to play up

1:10:33.800 --> 1:10:35.559
<v Speaker 1>to a high section of the fair way where you

1:10:35.560 --> 1:10:37.960
<v Speaker 1>have a chance to see the green, or you blast

1:10:38.000 --> 1:10:40.599
<v Speaker 1>it through and you end up in this huge hollow

1:10:41.560 --> 1:10:44.759
<v Speaker 1>in front of the green so that your approach is shorter,

1:10:45.240 --> 1:10:48.479
<v Speaker 1>but you're hitting up blind to this kind of perched green.

1:10:48.600 --> 1:10:52.120
<v Speaker 1>It's a very very difficult wedge from down there, and

1:10:52.479 --> 1:10:55.639
<v Speaker 1>it's it's like, yeah, it's a tough decision, I think,

1:10:55.680 --> 1:10:57.519
<v Speaker 1>but I think most guys are going to end up

1:10:57.520 --> 1:10:59.280
<v Speaker 1>in that hollow because that's what they're trained to do.

1:10:59.320 --> 1:11:02.439
<v Speaker 2>At this point, the we'll get to connoisseur's corner. I

1:11:02.439 --> 1:11:05.599
<v Speaker 2>don't want to ruin your counter sit ye corner here.

1:11:05.720 --> 1:11:08.240
<v Speaker 2>But the one thing about the tenth that's interesting and

1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:12.599
<v Speaker 2>subtle about that decision. You know, we just we talked

1:11:12.600 --> 1:11:17.280
<v Speaker 2>about the firmness, we talked about the wind, we talked

1:11:17.280 --> 1:11:21.960
<v Speaker 2>about the you know, the the precision you need to

1:11:22.120 --> 1:11:24.960
<v Speaker 2>attack these greens. And like, the interesting trade off with

1:11:25.040 --> 1:11:28.479
<v Speaker 2>ten is if you stay up high, you have that

1:11:28.600 --> 1:11:32.680
<v Speaker 2>longer shot in you can see it, and what you

1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:36.360
<v Speaker 2>do is you retain a high angle of attack, a

1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:42.200
<v Speaker 2>high angle of of of descent into the into the green,

1:11:42.640 --> 1:11:46.439
<v Speaker 2>so stopping power. One of the aspects of when you

1:11:46.520 --> 1:11:49.639
<v Speaker 2>go down low is you're sure you're hitting a wedge

1:11:49.680 --> 1:11:54.240
<v Speaker 2>and you're closer, but you're trading that for because you're

1:11:54.240 --> 1:11:57.880
<v Speaker 2>coming from so far below the green, you're you're you

1:11:57.960 --> 1:12:00.880
<v Speaker 2>lose some of the typical stops the power of the

1:12:00.920 --> 1:12:05.479
<v Speaker 2>wedge because the descent into the green is lessened by

1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:08.639
<v Speaker 2>the elevated nature of it. So what happens is it's

1:12:08.640 --> 1:12:11.679
<v Speaker 2>this tiny target that you have to hit in your

1:12:11.760 --> 1:12:17.839
<v Speaker 2>shot skips with the wedge more than the traditional wedge

1:12:17.840 --> 1:12:20.919
<v Speaker 2>that comes in and stops, so you're gonna get more skip.

1:12:21.479 --> 1:12:25.639
<v Speaker 2>So it's also this trade off of the functional depth

1:12:25.680 --> 1:12:29.800
<v Speaker 2>of the green. Actually when you get closer, gets narrower,

1:12:30.479 --> 1:12:34.400
<v Speaker 2>and it's a fascinating trade off. Like I personally will

1:12:34.600 --> 1:12:37.680
<v Speaker 2>always take the wedge from down low because I'm just

1:12:37.760 --> 1:12:40.280
<v Speaker 2>like frankly, not very good with mid irons anymore.

1:12:40.800 --> 1:12:43.440
<v Speaker 1>It's a tough shot from up above.

1:12:43.560 --> 1:12:46.519
<v Speaker 2>It's a tough shot. But for these guys like I

1:12:46.640 --> 1:12:49.240
<v Speaker 2>do think that there's an element of the descent that

1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:52.839
<v Speaker 2>makes that shot a bit more predictable. I do expect

1:12:52.840 --> 1:12:54.280
<v Speaker 2>most people to play down.

1:12:55.120 --> 1:12:59.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think they will, but you know, notable. Again, Brooks'

1:12:59.439 --> 1:13:03.120
<v Speaker 1>final round, he played up top. He took he took

1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:06.200
<v Speaker 1>the longer shot from the higher section of the fairway.

1:13:06.280 --> 1:13:08.760
<v Speaker 1>So I mean the guy won the US Open, so

1:13:08.880 --> 1:13:11.519
<v Speaker 1>maybe maybe he was onto something. Who knows. So yeah,

1:13:11.560 --> 1:13:14.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean ten or eleven remarkable holes on the some

1:13:14.600 --> 1:13:16.439
<v Speaker 1>of the best land on the property. I think those

1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:20.519
<v Speaker 1>will get a lot of attention because they're such severe shots.

1:13:20.560 --> 1:13:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Those approaches are so you know, the margins are so fine,

1:13:25.040 --> 1:13:27.720
<v Speaker 1>there and eleven in particular is going to be very

1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:33.720
<v Speaker 1>entertaining for watching on TV. So that's the you know,

1:13:33.760 --> 1:13:35.839
<v Speaker 1>that's where a lot of attention is going to focus.

1:13:36.240 --> 1:13:38.160
<v Speaker 1>But as I said, I do think five and six

1:13:38.240 --> 1:13:40.400
<v Speaker 1>are are kind of connoisseur's corner down there. You know,

1:13:40.720 --> 1:13:42.760
<v Speaker 1>this is where this is where the nerds are going

1:13:42.840 --> 1:13:46.000
<v Speaker 1>to be really happy. And you know six we've already

1:13:46.000 --> 1:13:48.599
<v Speaker 1>gone in depth with. There are similar dynamics on five

1:13:48.760 --> 1:13:51.760
<v Speaker 1>where you have these big runoffs behind the green that

1:13:51.840 --> 1:13:54.880
<v Speaker 1>then kind of determine strategy back to the te You know,

1:13:55.040 --> 1:13:59.720
<v Speaker 1>five is screaming downwind and it's not that long of

1:13:59.720 --> 1:14:03.360
<v Speaker 1>a part. So this is going to play as a

1:14:03.000 --> 1:14:07.879
<v Speaker 1>as a as a glorified par four essentially, but it's

1:14:07.960 --> 1:14:11.280
<v Speaker 1>gonna be a little bit like those par fives at

1:14:11.280 --> 1:14:15.439
<v Speaker 1>Augusta National where yeah, almost everybody is gonna be able

1:14:15.439 --> 1:14:17.960
<v Speaker 1>to reach in two, but the shots that you have

1:14:18.040 --> 1:14:20.360
<v Speaker 1>to be able to hit in order to avoid disaster

1:14:21.200 --> 1:14:25.479
<v Speaker 1>are tough shots. So you know, five is a double

1:14:25.479 --> 1:14:28.599
<v Speaker 1>fairway hole. It would be a little bit cooler, you know,

1:14:28.840 --> 1:14:31.639
<v Speaker 1>if everybody didn't just play to the left fairway, which

1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:33.920
<v Speaker 1>they will. You know, back in the day, it would

1:14:33.920 --> 1:14:36.920
<v Speaker 1>have been a legitimate choice. You can play it conservatively

1:14:36.920 --> 1:14:39.000
<v Speaker 1>out to the right fairway, play it as a three

1:14:39.040 --> 1:14:41.240
<v Speaker 1>shot hole, or go to the left fairway and have

1:14:41.720 --> 1:14:44.320
<v Speaker 1>a chance of reaching in two. Well, today there's really

1:14:44.400 --> 1:14:46.280
<v Speaker 1>no reason to play out to the right fairway for

1:14:46.360 --> 1:14:48.920
<v Speaker 1>the pros, and so everybody's going to go to the

1:14:49.000 --> 1:14:51.479
<v Speaker 1>left fairway. Kind of a bummer, but they can't move

1:14:51.479 --> 1:14:53.960
<v Speaker 1>the tee back much more, and technology is what it is,

1:14:54.800 --> 1:14:57.880
<v Speaker 1>but you still have that factor of the wind, and

1:14:57.960 --> 1:15:01.679
<v Speaker 1>then the green is just wild. It is pushed up.

1:15:02.040 --> 1:15:05.439
<v Speaker 1>It has this false front bunker on the right side

1:15:05.960 --> 1:15:09.880
<v Speaker 1>and these huge runoffs behind. Back in nineteen ninety five,

1:15:10.040 --> 1:15:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Tom Kite actually chipped from one runoff to another on

1:15:13.840 --> 1:15:17.759
<v Speaker 1>this green. So it is very severe and those shots

1:15:18.080 --> 1:15:22.439
<v Speaker 1>from behind the green are very very tough. But if

1:15:22.439 --> 1:15:25.599
<v Speaker 1>you get in a certain spot on the left side

1:15:25.640 --> 1:15:28.719
<v Speaker 1>of the fairway for your approach, and in the fairway

1:15:28.760 --> 1:15:30.800
<v Speaker 1>runs out pretty quickly over there, you might end up

1:15:30.800 --> 1:15:32.640
<v Speaker 1>in the rough. But if you manage to find the

1:15:32.640 --> 1:15:37.880
<v Speaker 1>fairway on the left side from that angle, there's this

1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:41.360
<v Speaker 1>little spine behind the green that's not bad to be on.

1:15:42.080 --> 1:15:44.120
<v Speaker 1>So if you go long from that angle, there's a

1:15:44.160 --> 1:15:46.360
<v Speaker 1>little bit of forgiveness. You're not going to go down

1:15:46.360 --> 1:15:49.280
<v Speaker 1>into one of these deep hollows behind the green. There's

1:15:49.320 --> 1:15:52.639
<v Speaker 1>this one spot where you might be saved a little bit,

1:15:52.640 --> 1:15:54.760
<v Speaker 1>and the chip isn't nearly as hard, and you can

1:15:54.840 --> 1:15:57.240
<v Speaker 1>only access that angle if you're on the left side

1:15:57.240 --> 1:15:59.599
<v Speaker 1>of the fairway over there. If you're on the right,

1:16:00.240 --> 1:16:02.920
<v Speaker 1>much much tougher shot to reach the green in two.

1:16:03.439 --> 1:16:05.120
<v Speaker 1>But then if you look in front of the green,

1:16:05.560 --> 1:16:08.639
<v Speaker 1>there's this nice little funneling contour along the left side,

1:16:09.240 --> 1:16:12.400
<v Speaker 1>and so if you're conservative from the right side and

1:16:12.439 --> 1:16:14.800
<v Speaker 1>you kind of play into this little kicker slope that

1:16:14.840 --> 1:16:18.240
<v Speaker 1>feeds in from the left side, there's a little bit

1:16:18.240 --> 1:16:22.439
<v Speaker 1>of forgiveness there as well. It's really only when you

1:16:22.640 --> 1:16:26.519
<v Speaker 1>go for the pin on your second shot from a

1:16:27.200 --> 1:16:31.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, from not the most advantageous spot, that the

1:16:31.080 --> 1:16:32.960
<v Speaker 1>fifth hole is really going to get on top of you.

1:16:33.479 --> 1:16:37.360
<v Speaker 1>And since it's playing so directly downwind, it's going to

1:16:37.400 --> 1:16:39.840
<v Speaker 1>be awfully taught tough to stop your ball on the green.

1:16:39.960 --> 1:16:42.640
<v Speaker 1>Right the balls are going to be running through the

1:16:42.680 --> 1:16:44.240
<v Speaker 1>green here, a lot of balls are going to end

1:16:44.320 --> 1:16:47.360
<v Speaker 1>up in those swales behind, and it's not easy from

1:16:47.680 --> 1:16:48.160
<v Speaker 1>back there.

1:16:48.439 --> 1:16:50.920
<v Speaker 2>It's not easy. The one saving grace is if it

1:16:51.000 --> 1:16:53.519
<v Speaker 2>is humbing down, you've got the wind to help you

1:16:53.560 --> 1:16:54.320
<v Speaker 2>on the way back.

1:16:54.600 --> 1:16:56.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but yeah, you're tripping back into it. Yeah.

1:16:56.880 --> 1:16:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I think like one of the things that green represents

1:16:59.600 --> 1:17:06.800
<v Speaker 2>those like kind of like how Flynn used greens at Shinnecock.

1:17:07.040 --> 1:17:10.400
<v Speaker 2>It's you know, there aren't that many greens that on

1:17:10.600 --> 1:17:13.960
<v Speaker 2>first look will stop you in your tracks at Shinnacock,

1:17:14.360 --> 1:17:17.759
<v Speaker 2>the way some greens at Augusta National will. The fifth

1:17:17.760 --> 1:17:21.479
<v Speaker 2>green stops you in your tracks. You are like wow.

1:17:22.280 --> 1:17:24.479
<v Speaker 2>But it also is at like one of the most

1:17:24.640 --> 1:17:29.360
<v Speaker 2>docile pieces of the property where it's very like, you know,

1:17:29.400 --> 1:17:35.880
<v Speaker 2>you kind of go through this stretch four, five, six, seven, eight,

1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that's probably the stretch of the the most adventurous greens,

1:17:41.680 --> 1:17:46.880
<v Speaker 2>but also the intersection of probably the quietest part portion

1:17:47.000 --> 1:17:51.639
<v Speaker 2>of the land. And then the rest of the round

1:17:51.720 --> 1:17:56.320
<v Speaker 2>really from eight on is ramped up by really the

1:17:56.680 --> 1:18:00.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, the the topography of the golf courts. In

1:18:00.760 --> 1:18:03.599
<v Speaker 2>these natural green sites, now, like there are some really

1:18:03.600 --> 1:18:07.040
<v Speaker 2>cool greens, like seventeen is a really neat green that's

1:18:07.080 --> 1:18:09.160
<v Speaker 2>on flat land in there. So I'm not I'm speaking

1:18:09.200 --> 1:18:12.920
<v Speaker 2>more in you know, generalities. But this stretch of golf,

1:18:13.479 --> 1:18:16.920
<v Speaker 2>as you dubbed it, Connoisseur's Corner. The one issue with

1:18:17.000 --> 1:18:21.160
<v Speaker 2>Connoisseur's Corner, which actually is is fitting. You know, there's

1:18:21.160 --> 1:18:22.800
<v Speaker 2>not a lot there's not gonna be a lot of

1:18:22.800 --> 1:18:26.280
<v Speaker 2>people at Connoisseur's Corner. It's also hard to watch. It

1:18:26.280 --> 1:18:29.840
<v Speaker 2>feels like it's like an indie film, you know. Yeah, yeah,

1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:33.800
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna there's a big barrier to entry, get it.

1:18:33.880 --> 1:18:38.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, everybody's kind of mumbling their dialogue and sometimes a

1:18:38.400 --> 1:18:40.080
<v Speaker 1>little hard to hard to tell what's going on.

1:18:40.960 --> 1:18:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Connoisseur's Corner. I'd love to be like, this

1:18:43.720 --> 1:18:46.400
<v Speaker 2>is where you should park and watch golf. I actually

1:18:46.439 --> 1:18:48.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's the best vantage point because of

1:18:48.280 --> 1:18:51.960
<v Speaker 2>the green, but it'd be hard to be close enough

1:18:52.000 --> 1:18:54.600
<v Speaker 2>to like be able to see it. Maybe I like

1:18:54.680 --> 1:18:56.439
<v Speaker 2>it maybe just short life.

1:18:58.120 --> 1:19:00.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, behind six green you can of get up and

1:19:00.560 --> 1:19:02.280
<v Speaker 1>see the six hole. I think that's a good spot.

1:19:02.320 --> 1:19:04.519
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, but you're right, I mean that's part of

1:19:04.560 --> 1:19:09.040
<v Speaker 1>what's tough about those shots, especially the T shots. You're

1:19:09.439 --> 1:19:12.000
<v Speaker 1>you're down low, you know, you're really flush with the

1:19:12.000 --> 1:19:13.960
<v Speaker 1>ground on those T shots, and you're looking out and

1:19:14.000 --> 1:19:15.400
<v Speaker 1>you're like, hey, you ain't see anything. You know, it's

1:19:15.520 --> 1:19:18.959
<v Speaker 1>very it's very linksy in that portion of the property

1:19:19.040 --> 1:19:22.080
<v Speaker 1>where the blindness comes not from having like a big

1:19:22.120 --> 1:19:24.560
<v Speaker 1>thing in front of you. The blindness comes from just

1:19:24.640 --> 1:19:25.760
<v Speaker 1>the fact that you're down low.

1:19:26.760 --> 1:19:30.559
<v Speaker 2>There's there's some clever holes that I just quickly like

1:19:30.600 --> 1:19:33.280
<v Speaker 2>to highlight that. Like we've talked a lot about, Like,

1:19:33.680 --> 1:19:35.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think the most of the course works

1:19:35.640 --> 1:19:39.080
<v Speaker 2>as like real strategic architecture. Play close to the bunker

1:19:39.600 --> 1:19:42.160
<v Speaker 2>and you get the reward. There are a couple holes

1:19:42.240 --> 1:19:45.160
<v Speaker 2>there's one on each side in particular that I've kind

1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:48.839
<v Speaker 2>of learned over time that like it's actually the opposite

1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:52.200
<v Speaker 2>of what you naturally think to do to me. Two

1:19:52.240 --> 1:19:54.559
<v Speaker 2>holes that you know, eight is I think eight's going

1:19:54.600 --> 1:19:57.120
<v Speaker 2>to be like kind of like the hipster cat nip

1:19:57.200 --> 1:20:01.479
<v Speaker 2>hole cat nipole of the of the where like every

1:20:01.640 --> 1:20:05.400
<v Speaker 2>every people are gonna you know, the hipster like katrarian

1:20:05.920 --> 1:20:08.599
<v Speaker 2>you know viewpoint, And I guess i'd be katrarian saying

1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:11.559
<v Speaker 2>that that fellow Katrarians are gonna come for this hole.

1:20:11.640 --> 1:20:13.200
<v Speaker 2>So I want to just be on the record of

1:20:13.240 --> 1:20:15.680
<v Speaker 2>saying it's probably gonna jump the shark a little bit

1:20:15.760 --> 1:20:18.640
<v Speaker 2>this week. It's a nice hole, but it's not like

1:20:18.880 --> 1:20:22.000
<v Speaker 2>one of the most spectacular holes. The eighth hole is

1:20:22.000 --> 1:20:25.400
<v Speaker 2>a really cool mid length par four. It's a shorter

1:20:25.520 --> 1:20:29.760
<v Speaker 2>par four, and the way the green operates is really neat.

1:20:29.800 --> 1:20:33.760
<v Speaker 2>There's this like big front and right knob in your

1:20:33.840 --> 1:20:37.200
<v Speaker 2>natural inclination. There's a faraway bunker up up the right side.

1:20:37.240 --> 1:20:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Is to push it close to the faraway bunker, get

1:20:39.200 --> 1:20:41.559
<v Speaker 2>the best angle. You actually want to play to the

1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:45.439
<v Speaker 2>outside of the dog like on on eight, and that's

1:20:45.439 --> 1:20:47.439
<v Speaker 2>gonna get you the access to the green, which is

1:20:47.560 --> 1:20:50.479
<v Speaker 2>it's just a clever difference, like if that pins front right,

1:20:51.520 --> 1:20:54.280
<v Speaker 2>there's you cannot get You're gonna have a hard time

1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:56.719
<v Speaker 2>holding the green from the right side of the faraway

1:20:58.520 --> 1:21:00.960
<v Speaker 2>The other one that kind of fits that bill a

1:21:01.000 --> 1:21:03.559
<v Speaker 2>little bit, that is lost in a stretch like a

1:21:03.680 --> 1:21:06.120
<v Speaker 2>really I think this one is probably the one that

1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:09.080
<v Speaker 2>gets paid attention to the least in this epic closing

1:21:09.120 --> 1:21:12.960
<v Speaker 2>stretch of the back nine is the fifteenth. The fifteenth

1:21:13.160 --> 1:21:15.080
<v Speaker 2>is this mid length you tee off from a high

1:21:15.200 --> 1:21:19.680
<v Speaker 2>ridge and this mid length par four that like kind

1:21:19.720 --> 1:21:24.280
<v Speaker 2>of curves around this landform. There's like a big ridge

1:21:24.439 --> 1:21:28.280
<v Speaker 2>in the fairway and it jogs to the right around it,

1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:30.640
<v Speaker 2>and there's some bunkers in front of the green. The

1:21:30.640 --> 1:21:33.760
<v Speaker 2>green subtly pitches away. I think this is like the

1:21:33.840 --> 1:21:37.360
<v Speaker 2>tricky thing about this hole is the green. Really like you,

1:21:37.600 --> 1:21:40.040
<v Speaker 2>it takes a couple of times before you realize, like

1:21:40.080 --> 1:21:44.840
<v Speaker 2>how unreceptive that green is. Your natural inclination on this

1:21:44.880 --> 1:21:46.880
<v Speaker 2>hole is just, oh, I'm just gonna bash it up

1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:50.280
<v Speaker 2>there and get But the play is to just give

1:21:50.320 --> 1:21:54.120
<v Speaker 2>yourself full spin control into this green. And like the

1:21:54.160 --> 1:21:58.120
<v Speaker 2>play is that, like just play it out left and short.

1:21:58.280 --> 1:22:01.080
<v Speaker 1>And it is not really a huge factor on fifteen.

1:22:01.120 --> 1:22:05.800
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't say the green isn't like preferring one or

1:22:05.800 --> 1:22:08.640
<v Speaker 1>the other. It is, as you say, mostly about the

1:22:08.640 --> 1:22:11.400
<v Speaker 1>fact that it's kind of guarded in front, which itself

1:22:11.479 --> 1:22:14.559
<v Speaker 1>is unusual at Shinnecock Hills. You don't see really that

1:22:14.600 --> 1:22:16.960
<v Speaker 1>many bunkers right in front of greens, but there are

1:22:16.960 --> 1:22:19.120
<v Speaker 1>in fifteen. And then the fact that it pitches away

1:22:19.160 --> 1:22:19.919
<v Speaker 1>from there.

1:22:20.040 --> 1:22:23.439
<v Speaker 2>And it often plays down wind, so like it just

1:22:23.520 --> 1:22:26.639
<v Speaker 2>like becomes a very tricky golf shot if you don't

1:22:26.640 --> 1:22:29.640
<v Speaker 2>have full control of your ball. So fair way and

1:22:29.920 --> 1:22:32.960
<v Speaker 2>actually full wedge there to me, like what I think

1:22:33.520 --> 1:22:36.040
<v Speaker 2>those two holes I think are interesting in the sense

1:22:36.080 --> 1:22:39.000
<v Speaker 2>of like they go against like the misconception or the

1:22:39.479 --> 1:22:44.599
<v Speaker 2>common perceptions of golf where I'm fascinated to watch people

1:22:44.640 --> 1:22:47.120
<v Speaker 2>play fifteen. If the wind strong enough, like some of

1:22:47.120 --> 1:22:50.200
<v Speaker 2>these guys might get like twenty yards away. Is that

1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:53.200
<v Speaker 2>going to play out? Like with how talented these guys are,

1:22:53.960 --> 1:22:56.720
<v Speaker 2>Like are they going to push it up? Does that

1:22:56.880 --> 1:22:59.840
<v Speaker 2>yield the you know? Or do they keep it back

1:22:59.840 --> 1:23:01.639
<v Speaker 2>to keep the spin on the ball.

1:23:02.320 --> 1:23:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, it's funny you're talking about holes where

1:23:06.520 --> 1:23:11.480
<v Speaker 1>the strategy that you would expect is actually reversed.

1:23:12.240 --> 1:23:13.200
<v Speaker 2>Thirteen.

1:23:13.520 --> 1:23:16.439
<v Speaker 1>That happens as well, where the advantageous angle is the

1:23:16.479 --> 1:23:19.879
<v Speaker 1>outside of the dog leg. And this is just another

1:23:20.040 --> 1:23:23.120
<v Speaker 1>element of Shinnecock Hills that is a little bit off kilter.

1:23:24.960 --> 1:23:30.160
<v Speaker 1>Nothing is consistent at Shinnacock, and I think it would

1:23:30.240 --> 1:23:37.040
<v Speaker 1>be disappointing if every dog leg hole preferred the inside

1:23:37.040 --> 1:23:38.920
<v Speaker 1>of the dog leg, because that would be a kind

1:23:38.960 --> 1:23:43.439
<v Speaker 1>of form of orientation or consistency at Shinnecock. But that's

1:23:43.439 --> 1:23:46.040
<v Speaker 1>not what this place is about. It's about always keeping

1:23:46.080 --> 1:23:48.720
<v Speaker 1>you off balance, and so it's appropriate that there are

1:23:48.720 --> 1:23:51.439
<v Speaker 1>a couple of holes where you know, you really kind

1:23:51.479 --> 1:23:52.960
<v Speaker 1>of want to play to the outside of the dog

1:23:53.040 --> 1:23:55.639
<v Speaker 1>leg or just kind of play to the most generous

1:23:55.680 --> 1:23:59.200
<v Speaker 1>portion of the fairway as opposed to gaining any particular

1:23:59.280 --> 1:24:01.800
<v Speaker 1>kind of advantage by by taking a risk.

1:24:01.960 --> 1:24:02.120
<v Speaker 2>You know.

1:24:02.200 --> 1:24:03.760
<v Speaker 1>That's that's Shinnakock thrown through.

1:24:05.280 --> 1:24:09.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's it's amazing. What other holes do you have?

1:24:09.600 --> 1:24:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Any holes that you want to spotlight? I didn't really

1:24:11.800 --> 1:24:14.400
<v Speaker 2>plan on doing eight and fifteen, but I got I

1:24:14.479 --> 1:24:14.920
<v Speaker 2>got there.

1:24:15.520 --> 1:24:18.280
<v Speaker 1>We've covered most of the ones that that I wanted

1:24:18.280 --> 1:24:21.600
<v Speaker 1>to touch on. I think, you know, every hole is

1:24:21.640 --> 1:24:23.920
<v Speaker 1>good at Shinnakok. That's the thing about this whole. Well,

1:24:23.960 --> 1:24:26.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I have some critiques of seven, but it's

1:24:26.320 --> 1:24:32.040
<v Speaker 1>a memorable, you know, version of of Aridan. But yeah,

1:24:32.080 --> 1:24:35.200
<v Speaker 1>it's it's kind you're not running the ball up there.

1:24:35.240 --> 1:24:38.880
<v Speaker 1>It's not like a yeah, it's it's really an aerial exercise.

1:24:38.920 --> 1:24:41.240
<v Speaker 1>And when the green gets i mean, the green is

1:24:41.240 --> 1:24:44.360
<v Speaker 1>is so fast in relation to the slope there that

1:24:44.360 --> 1:24:48.439
<v Speaker 1>that it kind of I think mutes the complexity the

1:24:48.479 --> 1:24:53.840
<v Speaker 1>potential complexity of the whole. But that aside, you know,

1:24:53.960 --> 1:24:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Shinnacock is a remarkably consistently great course, Like every hole

1:24:59.320 --> 1:25:03.040
<v Speaker 1>is is really really good, and so we could talk

1:25:03.080 --> 1:25:05.040
<v Speaker 1>about pretty much any hole, but we've covered most of

1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:07.040
<v Speaker 1>the ones. I think ten and eleven are going to

1:25:07.080 --> 1:25:10.240
<v Speaker 1>be the stars of the telecast. Five and six are

1:25:10.240 --> 1:25:13.120
<v Speaker 1>going to be the fun ones for kind of geeking out.

1:25:13.640 --> 1:25:17.240
<v Speaker 1>And then you know, I wrote down eighteen here just

1:25:17.320 --> 1:25:20.759
<v Speaker 1>because I mean, it's a great golf hole. The reverse

1:25:20.840 --> 1:25:23.760
<v Speaker 1>camera fair way leading to a green that I think

1:25:23.840 --> 1:25:28.160
<v Speaker 1>is really beautifully sighted, Like it's a great green site,

1:25:28.160 --> 1:25:30.479
<v Speaker 1>and the green is so well blended into it's it's

1:25:30.560 --> 1:25:34.080
<v Speaker 1>just gorgeous and kind of a bit of a natural

1:25:34.080 --> 1:25:36.960
<v Speaker 1>amphitheater effect around the green, and so it so it

1:25:37.040 --> 1:25:39.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of feels appropriate for the ending of a championship.

1:25:42.160 --> 1:25:47.439
<v Speaker 1>But what's that I've been rewatching old tournaments at Shinnecock.

1:25:47.479 --> 1:25:51.200
<v Speaker 1>I've been kind of rewatching the old US Opens. Eighteen

1:25:51.439 --> 1:25:55.560
<v Speaker 1>is always interesting at the end of the tournament. Eighteen

1:25:55.920 --> 1:26:03.000
<v Speaker 1>has consistently produced memorable moments, memorable plays at the end

1:26:03.040 --> 1:26:06.839
<v Speaker 1>of the US Open for the winner. So in nineteen

1:26:06.880 --> 1:26:11.840
<v Speaker 1>eighty six, Ray Floyd played an immaculate round at Shinnacock.

1:26:12.160 --> 1:26:14.880
<v Speaker 1>He was just like, it's got to be one of

1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:19.400
<v Speaker 1>the greatest rounds in major championship history what Raymond Floyd

1:26:19.439 --> 1:26:25.040
<v Speaker 1>did at Shinnacock that day, and he played eighteen absolutely perfectly,

1:26:26.439 --> 1:26:29.920
<v Speaker 1>amazing drive, kind of cutting the corner, taking the high

1:26:29.920 --> 1:26:34.120
<v Speaker 1>side of the reverse camber, amazing iron and just it

1:26:34.160 --> 1:26:37.560
<v Speaker 1>was representative of his full round. In a really satisfying

1:26:37.640 --> 1:26:42.040
<v Speaker 1>summation of his tournament. Nineteen ninety five, Corey Paven just

1:26:42.120 --> 1:26:48.000
<v Speaker 1>hits a poofball out to the right like they had us.

1:26:48.360 --> 1:26:50.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, usually at these media days they have you

1:26:50.400 --> 1:26:53.160
<v Speaker 1>hit a famous shot right, so you know the Tiger

1:26:53.200 --> 1:26:56.720
<v Speaker 1>putt on eighteen at Tory or the Jack Nicholas one

1:26:56.760 --> 1:27:01.599
<v Speaker 1>iron on seventeen at Pebble. They they of course marked

1:27:01.600 --> 1:27:06.400
<v Speaker 1>the spot where Corey Pavin hit his forward from and

1:27:06.400 --> 1:27:08.920
<v Speaker 1>and looking at that spot you almost laugh. It's like, really,

1:27:09.320 --> 1:27:14.360
<v Speaker 1>that's where that's where he ended up. But yeah, everybody

1:27:14.400 --> 1:27:17.280
<v Speaker 1>remembers that. Everybody remembers that forward. It's a it's a

1:27:17.320 --> 1:27:20.920
<v Speaker 1>great moment in championship golf history. Then in two thousand

1:27:20.920 --> 1:27:25.200
<v Speaker 1>and four, Ratief Goosen plays the hole pretty well but

1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:27.680
<v Speaker 1>kind of trickles a little bit off the fairway and

1:27:27.720 --> 1:27:30.640
<v Speaker 1>his and his iron, you know, flew on him a

1:27:30.640 --> 1:27:33.519
<v Speaker 1>little bit and went through the green. And when you're

1:27:33.600 --> 1:27:37.519
<v Speaker 1>behind the hole on eighteen at Shinnecowk Hills, you're in trouble.

1:27:38.040 --> 1:27:41.680
<v Speaker 1>And so he had a very tense moment where he

1:27:41.720 --> 1:27:45.439
<v Speaker 1>had to hit this very delicate lag putt and then

1:27:45.600 --> 1:27:48.759
<v Speaker 1>he had a four footer to finish, and the history

1:27:48.760 --> 1:27:52.640
<v Speaker 1>of Ratief Goosen and four footers at major championships, we

1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:57.599
<v Speaker 1>know is a little bit fraught. And then finally Brooks

1:27:57.640 --> 1:28:00.679
<v Speaker 1>Koepka kind of made a mess of eighteen and twenty eighteen.

1:28:02.560 --> 1:28:04.599
<v Speaker 1>He ended up kind of back left of the green

1:28:04.640 --> 1:28:09.040
<v Speaker 1>and had to hit a really amazing chip in order

1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:12.360
<v Speaker 1>to recover from that. I believe he ended up bogeying

1:28:12.439 --> 1:28:14.479
<v Speaker 1>the hole, but it would have been it would have

1:28:14.520 --> 1:28:18.000
<v Speaker 1>been really tense if he had had to par the hole.

1:28:18.400 --> 1:28:23.440
<v Speaker 1>So I think eighteen has a way of really administering

1:28:23.920 --> 1:28:27.879
<v Speaker 1>an interesting final test to the winner of the tournament,

1:28:28.120 --> 1:28:30.080
<v Speaker 1>and I would expect that to be the case again

1:28:30.120 --> 1:28:30.479
<v Speaker 1>this year.

1:28:31.120 --> 1:28:35.839
<v Speaker 2>It's you know that what you were talking about reminding

1:28:35.920 --> 1:28:41.800
<v Speaker 2>me of one other really big theme I think that

1:28:41.920 --> 1:28:45.000
<v Speaker 2>will play out is you know, you talked about how

1:28:45.120 --> 1:28:48.160
<v Speaker 2>being above the hole is such a tough spot to

1:28:48.200 --> 1:28:53.559
<v Speaker 2>be on eighteen pretty much every green out there because

1:28:53.600 --> 1:28:56.920
<v Speaker 2>of the slope, and then sometimes how the wind can

1:28:56.960 --> 1:29:00.759
<v Speaker 2>also impact it. The wind just in gener role because

1:29:00.760 --> 1:29:04.519
<v Speaker 2>of the greens are so exposed impacts putting a lot

1:29:04.760 --> 1:29:07.280
<v Speaker 2>similar to what we saw at Ironomnk last week, or

1:29:07.880 --> 1:29:10.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, is something that's going to be a factor

1:29:10.280 --> 1:29:13.439
<v Speaker 2>with putting. But being above the hole, you know, it

1:29:13.600 --> 1:29:16.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of plays to the same theme we're talking about.

1:29:17.400 --> 1:29:19.800
<v Speaker 2>If you can put from below the hole at Shinnacock,

1:29:20.479 --> 1:29:25.439
<v Speaker 2>it you could really rack up birdies because they are

1:29:26.200 --> 1:29:31.200
<v Speaker 2>fairly simple uphill putts where you can you can you

1:29:31.240 --> 1:29:37.080
<v Speaker 2>can really putt aggressively, and but to get to there

1:29:38.200 --> 1:29:42.280
<v Speaker 2>is often the hardest shot. Like you have really achieved

1:29:42.520 --> 1:29:46.640
<v Speaker 2>great greatness when you have these uphill putts at Shinnacock,

1:29:47.040 --> 1:29:48.679
<v Speaker 2>because they are very hard to earn.

1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:52.040
<v Speaker 1>You got to control your ball on the ground right well,

1:29:52.520 --> 1:29:54.280
<v Speaker 1>you have to control it's so hard to do.

1:29:54.520 --> 1:29:57.960
<v Speaker 2>You generally have to take on an edge to get them,

1:29:58.000 --> 1:30:02.080
<v Speaker 2>like a false front or a and undulation in particular.

1:30:02.520 --> 1:30:05.479
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just the it's just a hard place

1:30:05.520 --> 1:30:08.960
<v Speaker 2>to get uphill putts and the the safe shots to

1:30:09.000 --> 1:30:16.240
<v Speaker 2>always yield these insanely delicate downhill or side hill putts

1:30:16.560 --> 1:30:20.599
<v Speaker 2>where you're putting you're giving so much break and it's

1:30:20.720 --> 1:30:22.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's you're trying to drop it in the

1:30:22.880 --> 1:30:25.960
<v Speaker 2>high side on a on a dying putt, or you're

1:30:26.000 --> 1:30:29.040
<v Speaker 2>putting downhill and you're really like in the back of

1:30:29.080 --> 1:30:32.680
<v Speaker 2>your head thinking about, oh, like I really have to

1:30:32.800 --> 1:30:35.840
<v Speaker 2>be careful of not leaving myself six feet coming back,

1:30:36.120 --> 1:30:39.800
<v Speaker 2>which inevitably is a bad mindset to putt from. But

1:30:40.000 --> 1:30:43.280
<v Speaker 2>like this, this it goes to that that play is

1:30:43.520 --> 1:30:45.840
<v Speaker 2>again if you take on the risk, if you take

1:30:46.200 --> 1:30:48.599
<v Speaker 2>which is hard to do over and over again, which

1:30:48.640 --> 1:30:53.040
<v Speaker 2>is where like I think, like shitnacock is such a key.

1:30:53.560 --> 1:30:57.639
<v Speaker 2>The key thing to shittacock is just managing your game

1:30:57.880 --> 1:31:02.679
<v Speaker 2>and understanding like when are the opportunities where I can

1:31:03.479 --> 1:31:06.439
<v Speaker 2>I can nudge a little bit more risk in and

1:31:06.479 --> 1:31:08.760
<v Speaker 2>when are the opportunities where I have to back off

1:31:08.800 --> 1:31:10.320
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to have to grind my way to

1:31:10.479 --> 1:31:14.919
<v Speaker 2>par But like understanding that delicate balance, because you cannot

1:31:14.920 --> 1:31:19.040
<v Speaker 2>go out there and go you know, aggressive all day long.

1:31:19.880 --> 1:31:23.000
<v Speaker 2>You have to you have to pick your spots of

1:31:23.120 --> 1:31:26.599
<v Speaker 2>where you decide to take on the risk because if

1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:29.320
<v Speaker 2>you don't take on any risk all day you're going

1:31:29.360 --> 1:31:33.559
<v Speaker 2>to shoot a seventy four. But if you if you

1:31:33.880 --> 1:31:37.680
<v Speaker 2>pick your few spots where you are willing to do it,

1:31:38.000 --> 1:31:40.800
<v Speaker 2>that's how you achieve, and you shoot the scores and

1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:43.879
<v Speaker 2>you can make I think the thing about Shinnakok overall

1:31:43.920 --> 1:31:48.200
<v Speaker 2>thematically is it is extraordinarily hard as a golf course.

1:31:48.400 --> 1:31:53.400
<v Speaker 2>But I've always found it very I wouldn't call it easy,

1:31:53.720 --> 1:31:56.879
<v Speaker 2>but it's very achievable to make like five six birdies

1:31:57.320 --> 1:32:00.360
<v Speaker 2>like it is. That is an achievable thing you play

1:32:00.400 --> 1:32:03.679
<v Speaker 2>Shinnacock is to make birdies. If you hit great shots

1:32:03.680 --> 1:32:07.360
<v Speaker 2>like you get really great opportunities. It is not one

1:32:07.400 --> 1:32:11.120
<v Speaker 2>of those golf courses that like throttles down scoring. You

1:32:11.120 --> 1:32:12.920
<v Speaker 2>know what we saw at aronom Ink of what we

1:32:12.960 --> 1:32:16.240
<v Speaker 2>saw like complaints from players or not complaints, I would

1:32:16.280 --> 1:32:18.960
<v Speaker 2>say critique. This is not a complaint. What Rory said

1:32:19.320 --> 1:32:23.440
<v Speaker 2>about the variance and kind of holding, Shittacock's the opposite.

1:32:23.520 --> 1:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>You're going to see a wide range of scores at Shinnecock.

1:32:27.560 --> 1:32:31.360
<v Speaker 1>Hills, especially if the elements show up. You know, I

1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:34.559
<v Speaker 1>think if it's placid out there, we could see some

1:32:34.640 --> 1:32:39.240
<v Speaker 1>low scoring. And I've gotten to a point where I

1:32:39.280 --> 1:32:42.920
<v Speaker 1>fear the discourse. Yeah, I think I think we've gotten

1:32:42.960 --> 1:32:48.800
<v Speaker 1>to a bad spot in the discussion of championship golf

1:32:48.840 --> 1:32:51.800
<v Speaker 1>courses and set up. You know, Shinnecock Hills is a

1:32:51.800 --> 1:32:55.639
<v Speaker 1>great golf course, but if if the elements don't show up,

1:32:55.800 --> 1:32:58.439
<v Speaker 1>if the course is a little bit soft, if the

1:32:58.560 --> 1:33:02.320
<v Speaker 1>USGA is a little bit shy of you know what

1:33:02.479 --> 1:33:05.200
<v Speaker 1>happened in twenty eighteen or two thousand and four where

1:33:05.800 --> 1:33:08.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, the competitors were complaining that they lost the

1:33:08.560 --> 1:33:11.800
<v Speaker 1>golf course. They if they go a bit conservative and

1:33:11.840 --> 1:33:15.080
<v Speaker 1>we don't get a lot of wind and dryness, then

1:33:15.320 --> 1:33:17.680
<v Speaker 1>some guys could go low. And then we're just going

1:33:17.760 --> 1:33:20.320
<v Speaker 1>to be hearing all week about how we hyped up

1:33:20.360 --> 1:33:23.479
<v Speaker 1>Shinnecock Hills and it turns out that it sucks. And

1:33:23.880 --> 1:33:26.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm just sort of like pre exhausted by that. I mean,

1:33:26.840 --> 1:33:30.439
<v Speaker 1>this is is such a great golf course, and you know,

1:33:30.600 --> 1:33:35.120
<v Speaker 1>for me, that's not attached to whatever scored a part

1:33:35.360 --> 1:33:38.639
<v Speaker 1>it produces in the US Open or any particular week

1:33:39.240 --> 1:33:43.240
<v Speaker 1>that the best players happen to show up there. We

1:33:43.360 --> 1:33:46.200
<v Speaker 1>know what what Shinnakok can do when when it's windy

1:33:46.479 --> 1:33:51.040
<v Speaker 1>and dry. We know that that's that hasn't changed. But

1:33:51.760 --> 1:33:54.519
<v Speaker 1>you never know what you're going to get at any

1:33:54.520 --> 1:33:58.439
<v Speaker 1>golf course, but especially at Shinnacok Hills. And so if

1:33:58.439 --> 1:34:01.599
<v Speaker 1>anybody's listening this far into the pot, you're probably with

1:34:01.680 --> 1:34:03.840
<v Speaker 1>us on a lot of this stuff anyway. But I

1:34:03.960 --> 1:34:08.679
<v Speaker 1>just am begging people to chill begging, begging, begging people

1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:13.040
<v Speaker 1>to chill out and just try to enjoy seeing golf

1:34:13.080 --> 1:34:15.280
<v Speaker 1>on one of the world's greatest golf courses. And and

1:34:15.320 --> 1:34:18.599
<v Speaker 1>I'll try my best to restrain myself from getting too

1:34:18.680 --> 1:34:21.040
<v Speaker 1>deep in the muck with with people I disagree with

1:34:21.080 --> 1:34:22.679
<v Speaker 1>on on US Open Week myself.

1:34:22.760 --> 1:34:25.800
<v Speaker 2>But it's just the vocal minority, Garrett most I know.

1:34:26.120 --> 1:34:28.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think we we all tend to amplify

1:34:28.800 --> 1:34:31.720
<v Speaker 1>in our minds. Uh, some of these, some of these

1:34:31.800 --> 1:34:35.519
<v Speaker 1>voices on social media that may not represent the the

1:34:35.600 --> 1:34:40.519
<v Speaker 1>general opinion or view of a golf course. But I

1:34:40.600 --> 1:34:44.280
<v Speaker 1>have become gun shy over the past couple of years.

1:34:44.600 --> 1:34:47.120
<v Speaker 1>You know, there are still people who who come at

1:34:47.120 --> 1:34:49.559
<v Speaker 1>me for saying that LACC was a great golf course.

1:34:49.800 --> 1:34:52.320
<v Speaker 1>Guess what, I'm still LACC is one of the greatest

1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:53.559
<v Speaker 1>golf courses in the world.

1:34:53.800 --> 1:34:54.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't care.

1:34:54.520 --> 1:34:56.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't care what you thought of that US Open,

1:34:56.680 --> 1:34:59.519
<v Speaker 1>like it clearly is. And and at this point they're

1:34:59.600 --> 1:35:01.960
<v Speaker 1>they're th who are stating in his fact that that

1:35:02.040 --> 1:35:05.720
<v Speaker 1>it's not a good golf course. And I'm like, We've

1:35:05.760 --> 1:35:07.280
<v Speaker 1>just kind of got insane with this stuff.

1:35:07.360 --> 1:35:10.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm looking forward to the posts of the pinsheet round

1:35:10.280 --> 1:35:15.160
<v Speaker 2>one of someone someone who's never been to Shinnacock looking

1:35:15.200 --> 1:35:18.880
<v Speaker 2>at a US Open pinsheet, which inevitably is going to

1:35:18.920 --> 1:35:22.160
<v Speaker 2>have all tucked pretty much like a lot of tuck pins.

1:35:22.200 --> 1:35:24.959
<v Speaker 2>It's just the inevitability. That's what pro gomf.

1:35:24.840 --> 1:35:28.840
<v Speaker 1>They have to do nowig golf course for these guys,

1:35:28.920 --> 1:35:31.040
<v Speaker 1>make no mistake, Like the.

1:35:31.000 --> 1:35:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Pins are gonna be tough, and they're gonna say John

1:35:34.040 --> 1:35:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Bodhammer chose violence today. But but anyways, that's that's the fun.

1:35:41.040 --> 1:35:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I think you just got a smile.

1:35:43.120 --> 1:35:46.200
<v Speaker 2>I was. I was just enjoying. I just enjoy that

1:35:46.240 --> 1:35:48.280
<v Speaker 2>the golf courses are getting talked about a lot.

1:35:48.600 --> 1:35:51.639
<v Speaker 1>And you know, to an extent, I do too, And

1:35:51.640 --> 1:35:54.360
<v Speaker 1>and I I sort of riding out the wave of

1:35:54.439 --> 1:35:59.200
<v Speaker 1>the the aernomic discourse online was was at times very

1:35:59.240 --> 1:36:01.120
<v Speaker 1>fun and I'm glad that people are kind of paying

1:36:01.160 --> 1:36:05.120
<v Speaker 1>attention to this subject that I've personally been obsessed with

1:36:05.160 --> 1:36:10.719
<v Speaker 1>for thirty years. But man, I feel like we're creeping

1:36:10.800 --> 1:36:12.400
<v Speaker 1>up to an edge where it's not going to be

1:36:12.439 --> 1:36:14.720
<v Speaker 1>fun anymore, and I hope it just I hope it

1:36:14.760 --> 1:36:18.519
<v Speaker 1>stays fun because Shinnacock is so good and it's it's

1:36:18.560 --> 1:36:22.320
<v Speaker 1>just such a such a boon for golf fans when

1:36:22.720 --> 1:36:23.880
<v Speaker 1>a big tournament goes here.

1:36:24.280 --> 1:36:30.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, this was great. I really can't wait

1:36:30.439 --> 1:36:34.639
<v Speaker 2>for Shinnecock Hills. I'm excited for all of our coverage,

1:36:35.160 --> 1:36:38.519
<v Speaker 2>and Garrett, thanks for putting in a lot of work

1:36:38.640 --> 1:36:40.840
<v Speaker 2>on the coverage that we're going to be putting out

1:36:41.120 --> 1:36:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the next couple of weeks. I hope everybody tunes into

1:36:43.920 --> 1:36:47.639
<v Speaker 2>the YouTube's, your podcast, and our website will be humming

1:36:47.720 --> 1:36:50.800
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of golf course architecture stuff around Shinnecock Hills.

1:36:50.840 --> 1:36:54.679
<v Speaker 2>William Flynn and yeah, I can't wait for this week

1:36:55.160 --> 1:36:58.120
<v Speaker 2>or not this week, a couple of weeks when Shinnecock

1:36:58.240 --> 1:37:03.599
<v Speaker 2>Hills is on display. So thanks Garrett, and big thanks

1:37:03.640 --> 1:37:09.200
<v Speaker 2>to PJ Clark for editing and producing today's podcast. PJ,

1:37:09.439 --> 1:37:13.200
<v Speaker 2>We're all invading your island. You know we're talking about

1:37:13.200 --> 1:37:17.400
<v Speaker 2>golf on Long Island, so thank you for listening. We'll

1:37:17.439 --> 1:37:20.240
<v Speaker 2>be back next week with a new episode of the

1:37:20.240 --> 1:37:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Friday Golf Podcast.