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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKA F Daily with

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Speaker 1: me your girl, Danielle Moody recording prerecording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: there has been so much that has been happening with

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Speaker 1: regard to our laws in this country and what we

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Speaker 1: once thought were laws of the land, like Rovie Wade,

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Speaker 1: like marriage equality, like um the desegregation of schools plus

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Speaker 1: e versus Ferguson. All of our major civil rights wins

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Speaker 1: have not come through Congress, They have not come through

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Speaker 1: executive action. They have come through one place, and that

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Speaker 1: is our legal system, through the courts. Do you know

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Speaker 1: who knew that and with very aware of that fact,

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Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell when he orchestrated a plan to steal a

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court seat, a Supreme Court appointment from Barack Obama

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Speaker 1: by refusing to give Marrett Garland a hearing for over

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Speaker 1: a year. No pushback from Democrats, No, let's take Mitch

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Speaker 1: McConnell to court. It was all, let's play nice and

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Speaker 1: do nothing. And because of that, we now have a

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Speaker 1: six to three Supreme Court because Donald Trump got not one,

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Speaker 1: not two, but three Supreme Court fucking justices. Right now,

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Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell couldn't have known how the election in twenty

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Speaker 1: was going to go, or did he right? Did he

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Speaker 1: know what the election was going to do in twenty sixteen?

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Speaker 1: Did he have any idea? No one knows because there's

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Speaker 1: never any investigation into these people. But the reality is

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Speaker 1: is that Mitch McConnell and Republicans have always paid attention

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Speaker 1: to the courts, and for the last close to fifty years,

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Speaker 1: they have been working to overturn a woman and people

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Speaker 1: with uterus's ability to decide when, how and if they

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Speaker 1: start a family, when, how and if they have a child.

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Speaker 1: What I have always found so frustrating about Republicans over

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Speaker 1: these decades is the fact that they don't actually give

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Speaker 1: a shit about kids. They don't give a fuck about

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Speaker 1: your families. If they did, then they would vote for

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Speaker 1: the policies like family leave, like child tax credits, like

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Speaker 1: any support that you can provide for children and families

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Speaker 1: you would do. We wouldn't have a child poverty or

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Speaker 1: a child hunger in this country if Republicans actually gave

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Speaker 1: a shit about kids outside of the uterus. But they don't.

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Speaker 1: And you know what's frustrating is that they've never been

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Speaker 1: called out on their bullshit. They have never been made

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Speaker 1: to come to ask and say, how is it that

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Speaker 1: you talk about defending life in the life of a child,

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Speaker 1: and yet when children are born you do nothing to

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Speaker 1: support their well being in them turning into healthy, happy,

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Speaker 1: productive citizens. You're all hands off after that. So the

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Speaker 1: reality is, folks, that we are moving into really precarious

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Speaker 1: and dark times in this nation as it pertains to

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Speaker 1: women's rights, reproductive rights, and health. Abortion access is going

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Speaker 1: to be a thing of the past. While you have

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Speaker 1: countries like Mexico, for instance, who has just approved abortion

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Speaker 1: in their country, we are in America regressing backwards in

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Speaker 1: every single facet, in every single avenue, from voting rights

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Speaker 1: to abortion rights and everything in between. So on today's show,

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Speaker 1: I'm very happy to bring on for this Powerhouse Week

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Speaker 1: of Women, to bring on my friend MSNBC legal analyst

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Speaker 1: and former federal prosecutor under Obama, Joyce White Vans, who

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Speaker 1: will walk through with us all of the things that

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Speaker 1: we need to be paying attention to with regard to

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Speaker 1: where our laws are going to what is going to

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Speaker 1: happen in June when the Supreme Court finally decides on

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Speaker 1: the Mississippi case, which is going to outlaw Rov Wade,

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Speaker 1: and then we are going to have abortion asylums, sanctuaries

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Speaker 1: right in dotted across these United States until when until

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Speaker 1: a Republican takes control of the White House for the

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Speaker 1: final time and decides to withhold federal funding from states

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Speaker 1: that's still grant abortion. Right. Like, folks, where this is

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Speaker 1: headed is so dark. It is going to make the

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Speaker 1: Handmaid's Tale look like a fairy tale, look like a

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Speaker 1: children's story, because what we are facing in our reality

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Speaker 1: is so much starker than any of us can imagine. Now,

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Speaker 1: Joyce will say something that I think is important, which

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Speaker 1: is her belief that she thinks that Republicans are going

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Speaker 1: to overreach and that what is going to happen before midterms.

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Speaker 1: Before mid terms, we're going to see Rob Wade overturned,

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Speaker 1: and then women are going to march to the polls.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing that I continue to be on

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Speaker 1: the fence. About fifty two percent of white women voted

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Speaker 1: for Donald Trump. Right, So these women who in fact

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Speaker 1: go and access abortion care then turn around and vote

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Speaker 1: against other people's ability to get the same care that

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Speaker 1: they just got in secret. So I don't know if

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Speaker 1: there actually is enough women with good goddamn sense, enough

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Speaker 1: people with good goddamn sense in this country to realize

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Speaker 1: what a dark and twisted future we are presenting without

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Speaker 1: women having bodily autonomy. Right, So I think that while

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Speaker 1: I want to believe that it is going to unfortunately

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Speaker 1: take us losing our rights and our freedoms in mass

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Speaker 1: because let's be clear, if you're a person of color,

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Speaker 1: you already know what time it is in this country, right.

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Speaker 1: You already know that you are on borrow time, any

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Speaker 1: time that you get pulled over by police, any time

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Speaker 1: that there are horrible draconian laws that are rolled out, right,

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Speaker 1: You're we're always at the bottom of the totem pole.

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Speaker 1: So we already know what time it is. But for

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Speaker 1: those people who are still holding on to privileges that

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Speaker 1: are not granted to people of color and people from

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Speaker 1: marginalized communities, when all of their rights start to go

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Speaker 1: is when folks will start to act. But my feeling

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Speaker 1: is that it's going to be too fucking late, right,

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Speaker 1: It's going to be too late, and then what then?

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Speaker 1: What do we do? So I find myself these days,

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Speaker 1: as you know, stories continue to you know, make news

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Speaker 1: that we haven't been vigilant all along, that it is

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Speaker 1: the complacency that comes with winning rights, that you assume

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Speaker 1: that those that are held bent on oppression will somehow

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Speaker 1: give up. But what we have seen is that Republicans

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Speaker 1: don't give up. Actually, they will continue the same fight

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Speaker 1: with the same playbook for decades. It is the rest

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Speaker 1: of us that think, oh, well, nothing's going to happen

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Speaker 1: to Roe v. Wade because we've been crying wolf for

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Speaker 1: so long. Well, maybe part of the strategy in twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen should have been to talk about the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: and to paint the actual picture of where we are

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Speaker 1: right now. Would have been for Democrats when Mitch McConnell

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Speaker 1: was going against the Constitution and not providing the black

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Speaker 1: president with the access to appoint as sitting Supreme Court justice,

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Speaker 1: that we would have took that motherfucker a court right

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Speaker 1: and not just said, oh, okay, that's fine, I guess

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Speaker 1: we don't get a Supreme Court justice, like we just

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Speaker 1: fucked the country because of our desire to play nice

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Speaker 1: with people who would rather beat you to death right

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Speaker 1: then play in this play by the rules. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know where we are headed. But this conversation with

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Speaker 1: Joyce was incredibly illuminating because there is a lot at stake.

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Speaker 1: There is a lot that is coming down decisions that

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Speaker 1: are going to be made this summer by this conservative

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Speaker 1: sixty three Supreme Court that is going to radically change America.

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Speaker 1: And that has always been their goal, is for there

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Speaker 1: to be a radical shift. And they knew that they

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Speaker 1: didn't have the policies or the platform to be able

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Speaker 1: to get voted in to do these things. They knew

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Speaker 1: that all they had to do was take over the

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Speaker 1: courts and create an apartheid system in America and then

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Speaker 1: all would be well. And I'll tell you I've said

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Speaker 1: this before. Things are going to get a lot darker

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Speaker 1: before they get better in this country. They are going

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Speaker 1: to get bloodier before they get better in this country.

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Speaker 1: And I want folks to buckle up right and understand

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Speaker 1: that we have a long haul in front of us. Right.

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Speaker 1: This arc that we've been walking on that we thought

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Speaker 1: was just going to casually begin to bend towards justice

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Speaker 1: is not. It is not happening. If we want justice,

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Speaker 1: we are going to have to fight for it in

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Speaker 1: a variety of ways. Because they're not giving up the

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Speaker 1: fight to persecute women in this country, people of color,

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Speaker 1: queer people, Muslims. I mean, I am concerned once again

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Speaker 1: about our desire to fight for democracy and fight for

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Speaker 1: freedom abroad and not recognize how it is being pulled

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Speaker 1: away one decision at a time in this country. So

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Speaker 1: coming up next, dear friends, my conversation with my friend

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Speaker 1: Joyce White Vans. Folks, I am so happy to welcome

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Speaker 1: back to wogay f our friend Joyce White Vans. You

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Speaker 1: know her. She is an MSNBC legal analyst. She's also

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Speaker 1: a professor at the University of Alabama Law School and

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Speaker 1: a former federal prosecutor under President Obama. Joyce, it is

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Speaker 1: so good to have you back. It's so nice to

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Speaker 1: hear your voice. I'm missing you in person, I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, I want to know. You know. There's been, Joyce,

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Speaker 1: just so much legal news. I mean, every day is

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Speaker 1: another crazy headline, whether it's coming out of states like

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Speaker 1: Florida and Texas that are waging a war against uteruses

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Speaker 1: and reproductive health, whether it is another persecution or lack

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Speaker 1: thereof of persecution around those involved in the January sixth insurrection.

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Speaker 1: I want to kind of start with the Handmaid's tale

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Speaker 1: that Republicans are hell bent in turning America into Give

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Speaker 1: us your insight into what you were thinking over the

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Speaker 1: last couple of months, as Texas and Florida are currently

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Speaker 1: volleying to be the worst state for women in the country. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a real race to the bottom. And

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Speaker 1: I can fess I laughed a little bit when you

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Speaker 1: said Handmaid's tale, but only because our choices right now

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Speaker 1: are laughing or crying right right. Women are not in

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Speaker 1: a good place in this country. We are, of course

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Speaker 1: not alone, and I think the important first thing to

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Speaker 1: say is that we should all be thinking about allyship

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Speaker 1: now between communities of women who are under attack, between

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Speaker 1: the black community, immigrants communities, the LGBTQ community, and especially

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Speaker 1: the trans community. It's an important time for everybody to

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Speaker 1: stick together. But the attacks on women are particularly pernicious

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Speaker 1: because you know, we thought we were done with this.

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Speaker 1: Roe versus Wade, which gives abortion rights is fifty years old.

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Speaker 1: I fully expect that row will be reversed this year

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Speaker 1: when the Supreme Court hands down its opinion in a

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Speaker 1: Mississippi case. Parts of our lives that we have really

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Speaker 1: come to take for granted, for instance, you're right to

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Speaker 1: obtain birth control. I think those rights too, show some

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Speaker 1: increasing fragility under the lines of legal reasoning that this

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Speaker 1: newly conservative six three Supreme Court is willing to use.

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Speaker 1: So let me just give you the recent update, Danielle.

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Speaker 1: Just this week more bad news. We all know about

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Speaker 1: Texas's anti abortion bill. This is this vigilante justice style

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Speaker 1: bill where Texas says, well, maybe we passed this law,

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Speaker 1: but we're not responsible for enforcing it. Because what we've

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Speaker 1: done is created a private right of action for anybody

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Speaker 1: out there in the country who learns that a woman

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Speaker 1: is getting an abortion. After six weeks, that person has

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Speaker 1: a right to sue anyone who enables that woman in

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Speaker 1: getting the abortion, and the monetary damages are serious. And

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Speaker 1: so what's happened is that there is no longer functionally

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Speaker 1: a right to an abortion in Texas. Women there have

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Speaker 1: to go out of state. So up to the plate

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Speaker 1: steps Idaho, which this week passed a copycat bill. Tennessee

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Speaker 1: has a new abortion bill that's modeled after the Texas bill,

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Speaker 1: and something I guess I'll stop here, but I'll just

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Speaker 1: say we need to think about how these bills function

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Speaker 1: on the margins, and really the sort of poor it

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Speaker 1: could inflict upon women, because you could have a rapist

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Speaker 1: impregnate a minor, and either the miner's family or the

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Speaker 1: rapist's family could sue the woman if she sought an abortion.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine forcing an eleven year old girl to

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Speaker 1: carry a fetus the product of a rape to term.

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Speaker 1: I just I mean, even the description of that choice

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Speaker 1: is so disturbing to me, and should be so disturbing

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Speaker 1: to every person inside of this country. That we are

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Speaker 1: at a place right now where we're watching countries like Mexico,

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Speaker 1: very religious, Catholic based countries like Mexico pass abortion throughout

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Speaker 1: the country, and here in America, where we have always

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Speaker 1: professed right to have these liberties and these justices and

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Speaker 1: all of these things, and yet one can't we don't

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Speaker 1: pay women what they're worth, and two, we tell them

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Speaker 1: that they don't have the control over their own bodies.

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Speaker 1: And so when we are looking at these laws, I

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Speaker 1: think that what is really jarring right now is the

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Speaker 1: way that they are being written. Joyce, they are not

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Speaker 1: being written in a way that allows for straight and

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Speaker 1: clean prosecution. I feel as if Republicans and conservatives have

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Speaker 1: gotten hip to figuring out that they can write things

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Speaker 1: in a certain way that provides just as much threat

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Speaker 1: without it actually triggering action. Can you talk about the

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Speaker 1: ways in which the law in Texas that the vigilante

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Speaker 1: law that you just mentioned, was written, and how the

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Speaker 1: Tennessee law that was just announced, how that has been

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Speaker 1: written as well. Yeah, I think this is such an

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Speaker 1: important point. And when you talk about drafting laws, of course,

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Speaker 1: we're the country that couldn't manage to adopt the Equal

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Speaker 1: Rights Amendment, which would have guaranteed women writes as citizens.

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Speaker 1: So I guess that's the baseline that we start as

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Speaker 1: even in the best of times, we weren't able to

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Speaker 1: adopt that provision because hahaha, women were fully equal in

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Speaker 1: our society and it was unnecessary. So you're dead on

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Speaker 1: the money about how these laws are being written. And

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Speaker 1: this isn't by accident. This is a deliberate effort to

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Speaker 1: craft laws that can survive muster, can survive review in

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Speaker 1: the courts. And so, for instance, the Texas statute as

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Speaker 1: I've mentioned, has this vigilante provision, and it would have

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Speaker 1: clearly been at least under current law as long as

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Speaker 1: Roe is good law, it would have been illegal if

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Speaker 1: you had flat out prohibited abortion after six weeks. That's

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Speaker 1: not what Texas does. They write this very vague statute.

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Speaker 1: No one's actually sure what it means, but it suggests

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Speaker 1: that people, wherever they live, can sue any one doctor,

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Speaker 1: maybe an uber driver, right who gets a woman to

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Speaker 1: a facility where she's going to receive un abortion, and

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Speaker 1: any of those people are subject to suit. The lawsuits.

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Speaker 1: You know, first off, you have to pay to defend

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Speaker 1: the lawsuit. If you're sued, that's not inconsequential. But the

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Speaker 1: damages are ten thousand dollars. And if you've got multiple

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Speaker 1: people out there suing you for ten thousand dollars at

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Speaker 1: a time, this ultimately just becomes a real barrier. And

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Speaker 1: so here's the ultimate expression of the uncertainty factor. What

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Speaker 1: is or isn't an abortion after six weeks. In a

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Speaker 1: recent case, a woman is having a miscarriage in Texas

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Speaker 1: and she needs to have a DNC to save her life.

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Speaker 1: And in the middle of the miscarriage, the doctors put

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Speaker 1: her on a plane because they're afraid to perform the

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Speaker 1: abortion in Texas because they're not sure what their status

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Speaker 1: is under the law. And so you know, these medical

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Speaker 1: flights too, are very expensive. I don't know exactly how

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Speaker 1: much this one was, but you see figures in the

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollars for these unplanned, life saving

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Speaker 1: medical flights. And it really I have to believe that

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Speaker 1: if the folks who wrote these laws thought through all

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Speaker 1: of these consequences, maybe they would back off a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But perhaps I'm being too kind because these are people,

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Speaker 1: after all, who are willing to not have exceptions for

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Speaker 1: incest or for danger to the mother written into these laws.

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Speaker 1: You know, today in America, some of the same folks

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Speaker 1: that are protesting being forced to wear a mask. I

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Speaker 1: think it's okay to force a minor to carry a

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Speaker 1: fetus to term. I just you know, Joyce, you have

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Speaker 1: been in this game for so long. Has there been

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Speaker 1: another time in our recent modern history where we have

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Speaker 1: seen such a legal assault on reproductive health, on abortion

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Speaker 1: for women. Has there been another time in scent history

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Speaker 1: that we've seen this kind of aggressive backlash. No, And

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Speaker 1: you know, this is sort of the perfect storm. This

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Speaker 1: was the product of at least fifty years of conservative

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Speaker 1: activism on the issue of abortion, which allowed the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party to convince its voters to vote for the most

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Speaker 1: marginal of candidates. Not naming any names, but Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: comes to mind. In their effort to control the federal courts,

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Speaker 1: and they have been successful. There is now a six

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Speaker 1: three conservative majority on the Supreme Court. That's a safe vote.

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Speaker 1: So the Conservatives can and have lost the chief Justices

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Speaker 1: vote on cases and still come out with a majority,

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Speaker 1: which means you now have activism at the local, state

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Speaker 1: and federal level that's not friendly to women. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what are we going to do? What do you see?

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Speaker 1: I mean this decision, the Mississippi Court decision, which is

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Speaker 1: essentially going to overrule Roe v. Wade, which we all

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Speaker 1: thought was you know, cemented into our into our laws,

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Speaker 1: into our country. It is not. What we are recognizing

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Speaker 1: now is that what we thought was a law of

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Speaker 1: the land is no longer. And I tell people that

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Speaker 1: conservatives will start at abortion because it's low hanging fruit,

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Speaker 1: fruit that they have been looking to pick for the

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Speaker 1: last forty five fifty years. But it's not the only

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Speaker 1: thing that they will come for. Marriage equality that they

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Speaker 1: will come for potentially, you know, the resegregation of schools

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Speaker 1: that they will come for things the justices and the

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Speaker 1: civil rights that have been received over the past several

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Speaker 1: decades have come through the courts, and so what is

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Speaker 1: the recourse here? What is the pushback that can happen

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Speaker 1: and should happen that we're not seeing right now. It's

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Speaker 1: such a hard question. I wish I had good answers

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Speaker 1: that I think. The best one is that abortion is

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Speaker 1: a state by state issue. That's the view that the

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Speaker 1: conservatives have always ascribed to. You know, I think a

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Speaker 1: nationwide abortion ban would run a foul of some of

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Speaker 1: their jurisprudence, although it's important to say that their jurisprudence

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Speaker 1: is inconsistent with when you're in the area of abortion,

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Speaker 1: and rules that apply in other cases don't seem to

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Speaker 1: apply when you have a results oriented abortion opinion brewing.

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Speaker 1: But the real answer is to preserve the right to

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Speaker 1: abortion in as many states as possible. That's unfortunate because

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Speaker 1: it means women have to travel to preserve that specific right.

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Speaker 1: There will be states that will take a stab at

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Speaker 1: outlying travel outside of their state. I think that that's

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Speaker 1: clearly unconstitutional, and Missouri legislators suggested this week that she

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Speaker 1: would propose such a bill, there a lot of pushbout,

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Speaker 1: So I guess the answer is working to make sure

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Speaker 1: that your right to vote in your state, and in

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Speaker 1: your city and in your county is preserved. And of

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Speaker 1: course we live in a challenging time for the right

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Speaker 1: to vote as well. Oh Joyce, there is no good news.

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Speaker 1: I want to make a quick transition to go to

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Speaker 1: the latest with the January sixth insurrection. You know, recently

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Speaker 1: it came to light that the wife of Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: Justice Clarence Thomas, Jenny Thomas, was present at the Ellipses

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Speaker 1: the day of the insurrection. That she has also provided

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Speaker 1: resources that are being discovered, paying for buses for insurrectionists

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Speaker 1: to get to Washington, DC. We are learning so much

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Speaker 1: over the last several months of the investigation at the

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Speaker 1: Helm the House Commission, over five hundred interviews, subpoenas, thousands

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Speaker 1: of papers of paperwork. Where is the Department of Justice

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Speaker 1: on this? And has the commission, the White the House

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Speaker 1: January sixth Commission taken this as far as they can go?

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Speaker 1: So it's such a interesting question, you know. The first,

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Speaker 1: maybe the most important thing to say is we don't

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Speaker 1: know for sure what's going on at DJ. I don't

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Speaker 1: see some of the signs that I would expect to

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Speaker 1: see if DJ was conducting a long term grand jury investigation,

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Speaker 1: for instance, she would expect to see witnesses. You know,

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Speaker 1: DJ subpoenas of vunca trump to the grand jury. She's

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Speaker 1: not going to go in there quietly and testify, one

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Speaker 1: wouldn't think, And so you might hear a little bit

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Speaker 1: of noise. But there also are signs of life at DJ.

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Speaker 1: Of course, they did go ahead and subpoena phones of

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Speaker 1: one of the crack and lawyer's Sydney Powell. There have

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Speaker 1: been other signs of life like that. And Merrick Garla

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Speaker 1: and since his speech on January five, has been saying

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Speaker 1: all of the right things, the sorts of things that

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Speaker 1: if you're a former DOJ prosecutor like me, tell you

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Speaker 1: that there is a commitment to investigation. He says, we'll

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Speaker 1: follow the facts in the law no matter where they lead,

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Speaker 1: no matter whether you were there on January sixth or not.

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Speaker 1: And that suggests that there is some live investigation going on.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think that there are two very

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Speaker 1: interesting things going on at the same time. One is

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Speaker 1: the January sixth Committee. They are doing fabulous work, and

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Speaker 1: they are. They are stacked top to bottom with former prosecutors.

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Speaker 1: The two lead counsel for the committee are both former

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Speaker 1: US attorneys, one a Republican, one a Democrat, and committee's

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Speaker 1: staff is filled out with people who are former prosecutors.

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Speaker 1: These are folks who know how to run an investigation,

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Speaker 1: and we see the results that they're getting. We'll see

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Speaker 1: more when they have their public hearings, and I suspect

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Speaker 1: that those will be extraordinarily compelling. And at the same time, DOJ,

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Speaker 1: in its January sixth prosecutions, is starting to move up

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Speaker 1: the chain. You know, that's how prosecutors work. Typically, you

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Speaker 1: start with the people who are the least culpable. You

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Speaker 1: try to get them to cooperate and tell you about

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Speaker 1: people who are more criminally culpable. Well, DJ has worked

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Speaker 1: its way up to the leadership of some of the

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Speaker 1: organizations that were involved on January sixth. First, there was

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Speaker 1: the seditious conspiracy indictment for the Oathkeepers, inviting their leader

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Speaker 1: Stuart Rose right, a Yell educated lawyer, which is sort

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Speaker 1: of a weird detail. Seditious conspiracy is the most serious

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Speaker 1: charge DOJ has brought it. It involves an element of violence,

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Speaker 1: but they've also indicted members of the Proud Boys right

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Speaker 1: sating their leader, Enrique Tario, and this is essentially for

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Speaker 1: obstruction of Congress and a conspiracy to obstruct Congress. And

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Speaker 1: evidence in these cases would seem to place dj awfully

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Speaker 1: close to that Willard War Room where so much was

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Speaker 1: going on in advance of January sixth, and who knows

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Speaker 1: where that's going to lead. It could lead to the

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Speaker 1: former president, it might not. Their legal issues here currently

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Speaker 1: in the DC courts, there's a challenge to whether this

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Speaker 1: obstruction of Justice statute dj IS can be used in

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Speaker 1: these cases, and that's something that'll have to be decided

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Speaker 1: in the appellate courts. So there's still a lot of

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Speaker 1: spinning wheels going on. You know. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that was brought to the attention of the public as

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Speaker 1: it pertained to the Proud Boys was, and this was

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Speaker 1: reported by the New York Times recently, that there is

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Speaker 1: more evidence that they had plans to take over the

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Speaker 1: house buildings, the Senate buildings, the Supreme Court, that there

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Speaker 1: were plants right much in the same way that we

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Speaker 1: know that John Eastman put together that power point. Let

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Speaker 1: me push back on that just a little bit. We

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Speaker 1: don't know all of the details of this yet. But

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Speaker 1: in Tario's possession there was a document, you know, that

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Speaker 1: had seventeen seventy six at the top, which other figures

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Speaker 1: in the insurrection used, and it was a plan and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't specifically mention the capital, but it does talk

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Speaker 1: about how you might take over some of the buildings

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Speaker 1: that you have named in DC, and it talks about

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Speaker 1: strategies that were actually used on January six like opening

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Speaker 1: the doors and letting the crowds in first to create

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Speaker 1: a distraction right before the established groups go in. But

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Speaker 1: we don't know who wrote this document. We don't know

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Speaker 1: how Tario got it, although there's some suggestion that it

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Speaker 1: may have come from one of his girlfriends who also

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Speaker 1: had a roger Stone connection. If that turns out to

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Speaker 1: be true, and that's a big if. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that that's been established yet, that could be an interesting linkage.

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Speaker 1: We need to know a lot more about this document

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Speaker 1: and who authored it, how serious it's intended usage was.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't actually go into effect on January sixth, so

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Speaker 1: just lots more to learn here, you know, Joyce, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people, including myself, who read and

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Speaker 1: look at the mountain of evidence that is against Donald

433
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: Trump his allies, and we say, there are people that

434
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: are sitting in rikers right now with you know, on

435
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: conspiracy charges on oh, I think that there was something

436
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: in your backpack on you know, on so little and

437
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: yet there are mountains of evidence against these people, and

438
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: yet we're slow walking right And so I want you

439
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: to provide me and the listeners with some understanding from

440
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: from your advantage point as to why we're not seeing

441
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: just parades of indictments, why we're we're we're dotting eyes

442
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: and crossing tea and highlighting everything to make sure that

443
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: we get things right. But when it comes to the

444
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: prosecution of black and brown people, we just lock them

445
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: up and throw away the key. So can you provide

446
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: us with just some understanding as to the pace that

447
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: we are seeing right now and the amount of evidence

448
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: that is being uncovered. The pace is frustrating. I think

449
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: it's frustrating to all of us, especially because we don't

450
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: know what the ending is going to look like. But

451
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: let me try to give at least a little bit

452
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: of explanation. Evidence in and of itself is meaningless in

453
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: the criminal justice sense, because evidence only matters if it

454
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: helps you prove a crime. Criminal law in this country's

455
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: statutory that means that there has to be a statute

456
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: that someone has violated. And these statutes have a lot

457
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: of different elements. You know, as a prosecutor, you might

458
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: have four or five six things that you have to

459
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: prove to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt using evidence

460
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: that's admissible in trial in order to get a conviction.

461
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: And obviously the federal and the state system are different things,

462
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: and I'm speaking just about the federal system, but one

463
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: of the chief elements that virtually every crime has included

464
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: in it is the state of mind that the defendant

465
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: has to have acted with. And bear with me, Now,

466
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: this is sort of criminal law one oh one. For

467
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: some crimes, the defendant simply has to have known what

468
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: they were doing. So a defendant has to have knowingly

469
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: possessed drugs, right as long as you can establish through

470
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: some means or another. And you know, if the defendants

471
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: marijuana bangs, the marijuana in his pockets, then he probably

472
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: knew that they were there. Those cases are easier to

473
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: convict in than, for instance, a conspiracy case or an

474
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: Instruction of Congress case where the government has to prove intent.

475
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: You have to prove what the defendant intended to do,

476
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: and it's tough to get inside of somebody's head. We

477
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: do this typically with circumstantial evidence. That's really the best

478
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: way that you do this. But you know, something that's

479
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: happened in the modern era is suries expect to see

480
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: something better than circumstantial evidence. They want to hear phone calls,

481
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: they want to see emails or text messages. And so

482
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: when you have someone like Donald Trump who's so scrupulous

483
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: about avoiding email, and when you've got twelve jurors who

484
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: you have to convince beyond a reasonable doubt to get

485
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: a conviction, and when you know how dangerous it would

486
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: be to indict, to go to trial and to get

487
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: an acquittal, imagine what the country would look like after that.

488
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: Then I think that helps us understand why DJ, if

489
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: in fact it's pursuing these investigations, is moving slowly and

490
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: waiting to see what happens. And then the last thing

491
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: that I'll say about that, there is this legal issue

492
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 1: which really gives me pause. I think the statute clearly

493
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: applied in this case. There are ten judges in the

494
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: District of Columbia, nine or ten who have permitted cases

495
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: to go forward under it. But there is this one

496
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: judge with a contrary ruling, and that will go up

497
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: to the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia.

498
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: It will make it to the Supreme Court. I suspect

499
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: one way or record the other. Either the Court will

500
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: refuse to hear the issue and the Court of Appeals

501
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: ruling will be the law of the land, or the

502
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: Supreme Court may decide to hear it. Profecutors don't like

503
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: that level of uncertainty. And remember that Merritt Garland clock

504
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: doesn't tick for the midterm elections like the House Committee's

505
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: investigation does Merritt Garland. Unless something crazy happens and Joe

506
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: Biden is impeached and there's a new president, which I

507
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: think is just not going to happen. You're never going

508
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: to get the votes in the Senate to do that.

509
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: You know, Merritt Garland has got at a minimum two

510
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: more years after this to finish up. And this may

511
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: be something that's better left until after the midterms are

512
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: behind us. You know, Joyce, I listen to you and

513
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: I hear you and the and the rationale, and I

514
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: just don't know, because I have to be honest that

515
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: if Democrats, which is you know, based on the polling

516
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: right now looks like we will in fact lose the

517
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: House and lose the Senate. I don't think that Merritt

518
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: Garland will have those two years left. I think that

519
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: he will be hauled in before committees by Republicans. I

520
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: think it'll make Benghazi look like a playground picnic in

521
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: comparison to General goes through that. You know, Eric Holder

522
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: went through that, and it doesn't slow down DJ's work.

523
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: So I'm not saying that if I was the Attorney general,

524
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: this is the sort of pace that I would want

525
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: to see, right, and may well be things that we

526
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: just don't know about. I mean, so much of this,

527
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: you know, just depends on the ending, right what happens

528
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: at the end. If we knew what the ending looked like,

529
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: maybe we'd be happier with the slow pace. It's really tough,

530
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: I think, to watch this and to see all of

531
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: this and to not know what the outcome is going

532
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: to be. Because Donald Trump has managed to elude justice

533
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: for so many things, so many times, and the notion

534
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: that he would elude justice for an insurrection, right for

535
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: interfering or trying to interfere with the smooth transfer of

536
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: power in this country. That's really unconscionable, it really is. Joyce,

537
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: oh white Van, thank you so much for making the

538
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: time to join us again on Woke a F. We

539
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: love your perspective and having you and we really appreciate

540
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: your time. Well, thank you for indulging an old prosecutor.

541
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: That is it for me today here on Woke a F.

542
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: As always power to the people and to all the people. Power,

543
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke. Us fuck