WEBVTT - The Real Dangers of Abortion Under Trump 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.600 Cool Media. 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:07.320 Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast that is 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:10.640 quite often about abortion in this country. I'm your host, 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:15.240 Mia Long. Things have been very bad under the last 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:18.159 administration and the administration before that, and the administration before that, 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.200 and going back a long long time, things have been 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.000 not good. They've been steadily getting worse, and there is 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:26.599 a lot of fear and I think a lot of 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.120 is very justified that things are going to get even 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.199 worse under Trump. And to talk about what we need 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.880 to be afraid of and what we don't is Kate 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.840 Bertash who's the executive director of the Digital Defense Fund, 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.080 and also Crystal, who's an abortion worker and also a 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.920 volunteer for abortion hotlines. So both of you two, welcome 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:45.400 to the show. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:47.280 Excellent, Thanks for having us on. 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:49.319 Yeah, thanks for having me. 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:51.800 Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you both, and 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.520 I'm also excited to let Kate talk a little bit 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:56.240 about what the Digital Defense Fund is. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:01.040 Excellent, thanks so much, longtime listener, first time color I suppose. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:01.560 So. 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.399 The Digital Defense Fund is an organization that's been around 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:07.280 for actually since the last election. It was started in 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:11.400 response to Trump winning for the first time and We're 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.800 an organization that was put together to provide free digital 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.440 security and technology resources for the frontlines of what then 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.160 was just the abortion access movement. We've since moved to 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:26.240 support other variety of autonomy and liberation movements, but we 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.399 provide free digital security evaluations trainings. We do a lot 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.920 of project management work to help people set up what 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.360 they'd like to change about their systems and security, and 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:37.240 we also help people pay for it, which is a 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.679 really wonderful way to get to kind of see through 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.120 our values. So and excited to be on here today 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.319 to talk a little bit more about the implications for 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.400 both organizations and individuals. 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.440 The very first wave impact of this election has been 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.160 a lot of a lot of sort of fear about 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.080 what's coming. And I wanted to, I guess, ask you 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.120 about what kinds of fears you've been seeing and and 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.360 maybe talk a little bit about which ones are more 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.160 justified than others, because I think there, I mean, there's 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.480 been some concern that I think is justified as good, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.160 and there's also been some stuff that is kind of 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.480 not rooted in what the threats are. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.720 Yeah, I think it's a great time anytime this happens 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:18.720 to sort of get to ask and answer the question, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.239 which is like, how do we know? And I think 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.720 we're sort of lucky in this way that we know 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.320 what are likely to be risks now to both people 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.720 who are seeking abortions as well as people who help 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.160 them get their folks as well, like Crystal. I know 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.880 we'll provide some additional color to this as well, but 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.920 we know what kind of threats face people facing abortions 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.400 and those who help them, because unfortunately a lot of 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.680 these threats have been happening for the last several decades, 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.720 people have been prosecuted for suspicion of ending their own pregnancies. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.640 We get a lot of really incredible and insightful data 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.119 from organizations like IF one how who put out these 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.880 reports that are called self care Criminalized, and they look 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.840 backwards across all of the different cases that have happened 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.000 to space and try to come up with sort of 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:03.760 like these key aspects. And one of the big things 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:05.600 that we know that I'm sure we're going to talk 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.000 about a lot through this episode is that the core 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.399 way that people come to the attention of law enforcement 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.560 for seeking to allegedly end their own pregnancies is through 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.680 usually someone they know reporting them, or someone responsible for 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.520 their care. So that might be like healthcare worker, social worker, 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.560 other representative agent of the state, and it can be 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.560 really devastating to kind of hear and I think internalize 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:33.120 that it's often people's family members like X or friends, 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:38.840 neighbor who might turn somebody in expecting or misunderstanding that 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.280 it is a crime to end your own pregnancy. I 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.360 think one of the things that's really hard about this 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:45.880 is that it involves some of the ways in which, 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.400 like I guess it's what you would call very unfortunately 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.520 typical policing practices, the way in which people's rights are 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.480 violated when they are interrogated, when they are pressured into 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.440 disclosing information. There's something called consent search that it unfortunately 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.040 be ends being a very common feature of these kinds 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.119 of cases, which is where you're put in a room 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.200 and you're talking to representative agent and state or a 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.960 police officer, and they sort of pressure you into agreeing 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.960 to unlock and disclose often your phone and other device, 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:18.200 or to otherwise share information quote unquote voluntarily. And it's 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.440 easy to see why people kind of get pressured into that. 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.680 So that is something that tends to happen in many 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.760 kinds of prosecutions of crimes or alleged crimes, and I 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:30.359 think it's hard for a lot of people to imagine 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.880 what that's like to you know, be pulled over and 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.479 searched in this way, or like they're often like people 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.880 are not the targeted victims of something like stop and frisk, 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:42.600 and so it's sort of hard to imagine in your 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.960 mind the way in which somebody is information or their 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.240 data or their case comes to the attention of law enforcement. 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.760 And so we like tend to then imagine these other 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.600 threats that feel perhaps closer to our daily experience, especially 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.880 as like often people who are not racially targeted by police, 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.800 who are not targeted by the family policing system or 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.480 have their pregnancies surveilled by the hospital systems. So people 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.000 like to imagine then that. I think a big one 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:09.760 that we all hear and I think we're all going 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.360 to take a deep breath at the same time is 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.719 period tracking apps. Yeah, I thought it was kind of remarkable, 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.160 as Crystal, I'm sure you've heard this too, mm hm. 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:21.400 And I would love to at lease space, Crystal for 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:23.200 you to add any context to sort of like the 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:27.000 threats that are that are present versus stuff that people imagine. 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:28.880 I know, we're going to spend a lot of time 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:30.239 talking about our friend the period. 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.200 So at the time of recording, it's been like about 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.800 almost a month since election. 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:41.599 Day, and you know, I answer the phone for a. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.960 Couple of different places, places for both work and volunteering, 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.359 and there's been a lot of fear, you know, and 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.680 not saying that, like abortion access has been without fear 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:56.160 up until this point, but people are very afraid. And 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.320 you know, I'm getting a lot of questions about people 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.599 asking like can I be arrested for giving you my information? 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.839 Sending in my ID, giving you my real name? Ordering 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:13.040 medication online? Can the United States get my records if 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.000 I order from this provider overseas? Such as women on 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.240 web and just yeah, people asking like can I be arrested? 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.880 You know, can I do this? Will I be in trouble? 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.720 And it is something that is going We're going to. 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.440 See an increase in criminalization and increase in abortion bans. 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.839 It is a complicated answer, you know. The strait of 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.719 it is that yet you can access abortion medication online 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.280 even if you're in a band state, even if you're 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.320 in a state with a total abortion ban, you can 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.960 order the medication from reliable resources online and have it 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:45.400 mail to you. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:46.480 And people do this every day. 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.600 Hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of people do this every day 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:55.000 without any issue. But there is also risk, and it's 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.680 kind of like what Kate was saying, where people tend 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.000 to it seems like people don't know what the risk 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.560 has been or what it looks like, because, like Kate 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.400 was saying, there's like I been all these years of 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.719 pregnancy criminalization, and we know what it looks like, and 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:10.800 it tends to not be what people are worrying about 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.280 right now, where people seem to be thinking like that 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.240 the police are going to come and arrest them for 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.480 putting in this order along with hundreds of other people 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.720 in a given day, or that the police are somehow 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.520 going to get their period tracker information on their on 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.480 their phone, and you know, like of course, you know, 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.040 practice dicial security in a way that makes you feel comfortable, 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.600 Like if you don't want to use a period tracking app, 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:35.200 you know there are safer ones to. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.120 Use, or you don't have to use it. 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.480 But the fact of the matter is is that even 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.160 if you are using pen and paper to record your period. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.600 If you have an abusive partner, they're going to be 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.040 able to take pictures and collaborate with police. So the 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.760 biggest threats are always, you know, as the data shown, 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.920 like Kate was saying, going to be healthcare workers and 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.520 the people that you know such as partners, family members, neighbors, friends, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.120 et cetera, who are going to get access. 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:07.840 To pictures, screenshots, and of course the police and warrants. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.560 It's not going to look like the Handmad's scale, where 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.240 somebody's like coming in and going and forcing you to 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.840 do something and dress a certain way or etc. It's 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:17.480 not going to be like anything new and fancy. It's 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.080 going to be the same old police surveillance and criminalization. 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:21.320 That we've been seeing. 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:26.160 But there are ways in which we can protect ourselves 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.560 when we're doing that. When somebody calls and they ask me, 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.559 can I get in trouble for ordering this medication online? 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.960 And people can get really in trouble for anything in 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:37.920 the United States. You know, if the police want to 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.640 go after you for something, they're going to find something, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:41.920 So you just have to not leave evidence. Like so, yeah, 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.160 you can order the medication online, but You can also 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.840 use signal and we can know that Kate's probably going 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:50.640 to go more into this, but you can make sure 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.800 you have disappearing messages. You can use encrypted emails and 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.760 search engines. You have to make sure you're thinking about 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.400 who can see your data and you know where your 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.839 data is being recorded. And that's really like, if you 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.800 want to protect yourself in terms of avoiding criminalization for 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:12.760 abortion and pregnancy outcomes, and you know, having a secure 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.040 and safe abortion in the United States, then you have 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.160 to look at the basics like this. And I'm going 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:19.520 to let Kate talk about that a little bit more 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.600 because I know that you have all the good information 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.520 that the Digital Defense one has looked into about the 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.480 apps and then how to delete data and what data 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.320 to delete and how to think about this. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.520 Yeah, I think one of the really tough things, right 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.199 is that like so like neither I or Crystal or attorneys, 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.800 but often people are just getting a lot of advice 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.000 from attorneys, and some of our work here is to 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:42.880 make sure that like when you get sort of this 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.280 idea of when something might be criminalized, or often like 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.079 in this circumstance where we just like don't know actually 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.280 how it's going to show up a lot. Yet we're 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.079 trying to think about sort of what are the ways 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.840 we can have our digital devices and our technology sort 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:00.520 of support us with these by default type of settings. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:02.280 One of the things that's really tough to I think 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:04.200 understand until you've been through it is sort of like 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.880 what it looks like when you go through any kind 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:11.840 of investigation. I think the other hard kind of like 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:13.960 context to get from the way we talk about it 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.559 now is that a lot of how pregnancy is criminalized, 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.760 that sort of scaffolding, that infrastructure was built during the 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.319 drug war. So one of the most common kinds of 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.880 pregnancy criminalization in America is drug testing people who are 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:30.000 pregnant or come to give birth without their consent. And 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.080 you know, so we basically consider like being an alleged 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.840 drug user to be the sort of like primary way 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.640 that our decision of like how much the digital evidence 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.000 matters has like kind of come to take shape. So 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.240 often when an investigation is happening, the police will look 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.719 for where are all the sources of information I can 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.040 find about this, because like the human body is like 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.679 not super compliant with like. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:54.199 Digital forensic evidence. 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.640 Everydediary processes I think it's like one of the most 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.200 magical things about humans is that, you know, our bodies 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.560 defy the letter of law in so many wonderful ways. 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:03.240 But that means that they sort of have to then 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.839 go to this like digital body of evidence to kind 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.000 of tell the story or as like all the wonderful 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.679 lawyers that advise us like to say, to sort of 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.360 like be able to draw the dots or the bndes 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.920 between the dots and form this kind of like coherent 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.240 set of facts of what happened between one moment to 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.400 the next. So often when we're like imagining all of 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.440 the data that lives in our phone, because unfortunately, in 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.200 many cases, when you are perhaps coerced into consenting to 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.120 the search of a device, they will often take your 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.600 phone and then have you unlock it. It gets plugged 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.559 into a device that makes clone of the entire drive, 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:41.840 and then they can sort of with many different techniques 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.600 kind of leisurely look through it for keywords to kind 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.080 of tell where there might be evidence somewhere on your 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.679 phone that you, for example, when on the internet search 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.640 for and purchased abortion medication. So yes, like period track 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.559 and data might be one portion of that but unfortunately, 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.720 in all the cases that we've seen, or at least 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.960 in and most of the ones that we're most familiar with, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.960 all of that quote unquote plain text data. So where 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.880 you've just written out in your own unencrypted words into 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.560 a search bar in the search engine on your phone, 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.040 or you've sent a text message to a very close 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.720 contact with somebody telling them how you feel about your 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.680 pregnancy that you desire to end it, perhaps your plan 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.280 to buipills, even the receipt that comes into your inbox. 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:27.840 It's not necessary then to go to all these companies 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.200 and go file a for a warrant and get all 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.800 that information, because now it's in just plain text, quote 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:37.119 unquote on your phone, and that is far more information 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.920 than the abstract information that might come out of a 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.760 period tracker. So unfortunately cops don't tend to use these 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.480 in cases that we've seen because it's quite simply not necessary. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.800 That kind of like plain text admission of your state 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.600 of mind or the statement of your intent has unfortunately 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.960 been the sort of core evidence that comes up. And 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:57.400 I think this has like a lot of like really 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.440 quite sad implications. I know, in prior to prepare for 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.200 this episode, we were discussing a couple of cases that 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.320 I know folks might be more familiar with. A big 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.440 one that came up is, you know, the case of 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.960 a mother and daughter out of Nebraska who were having 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.720 a discussion around allegedly helping the daughter to find an 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.520 end for her pregnancy over Meta's Facebook messenger. And I 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.640 think what I find really quite devastating about it, for 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.439 many reasons, is that these messages were actually ones that 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.120 like I think any of us could hope to have 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.280 with a very supportive parent or other person in our life. 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.640 Is like, why we have, you know, these conversations so 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:35.880 that we can feel connected and support it through such 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.520 a complex and affecting process. It then becomes very sad 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.400 to me that it becomes a criminal matter just because 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.120 it was in a place that that conversation, you know, 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.880 Meta did not have this family's back in terms of 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.800 encrypting those messages or ensuring that they were free to 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.320 speak of what they wish when they wish by default. 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:54.679 So I think, like when we start to give out advice, 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.440 it's been important for us at Digital Defense Fund to 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.760 kind of work backwards. I know it's been an exist crisis. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.960 I think for everybody in the digital security space to 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.560 know that like the list of advice I could give 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.920 you on how to protect yourself when going through these transactions, 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.760 or when seeking support, or like just having a normal 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.280 you know, questions and going on the internet being able 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.559 to google them and get them answered. That we have 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.800 to kind of like start from the basics, because like 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.840 you have the right to find information from reliable resources, 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.160 You have the right to buy pills from a reliable source. 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.960 You have the right to like seek that kind of 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.280 connection and support from people in your life. And so 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.920 we're trying to cut down on like all the infinite 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.720 amount of advice that we could give and try to 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.000 like narrow it to like what is actionable, what has 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.680 the greatest impact potentially in the cases we've seen. And 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.040 I know we're going to dig into it, but I 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.960 would love to leave room to tack a little bit 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.520 more about that whenever, it's a good time in this 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.160 conversation to go through our top three action items. 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:57.000 So before we get to that, unfortunately we are under capitalism, 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.040 which means we have to do these ads. Moving back shortly. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.120 And we are back another lawsuit. This is a little 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:15.600 different becase it's not a criminal charge. It was a 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:16.720 lawsuit in Texas. 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:18.480 And I want to bring up just as an example 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.640 of like how you know our data can betray us 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.120 in these moments, is there was and this was a 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.280 really silly lawsuit has been dismissed, But there was a 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.800 Texas man who filed a wrongful death lawsuit accusing three 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.560 women of helping his exife obtained abortion pills. I believe 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:38.640 I think it was dismissed last year, or maybe it 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.640 was earlier this year. It wasn't even under the aid 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.080 and event in law in Texas. It was actually, you know, 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.000 they they sought a different avenue. There actually hasn't been 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:51.760 a successful lawsuit against an abortion seeker under Aida bet 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.080 law or any other law in Texas in the last 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.520 two years, which I think is just something worth bringing up, 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.040 is that, you know, we actually haven't seen that happen 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.480 yet other than this case. But what happened in this 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.600 case is this person was planning on terminating their pregnancy. 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.840 They were talking to some friends who were helping them out, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:12.640 and their iPhone was synced up to their iPad. So 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.480 if anyone's familiar with that, you can have your your 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.000 I messages app here on both devices. The I messages 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:20.480 that are coming to your phone are also going to 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.480 be going to your iPad, And her ex husband took 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.880 pictures of the I messages coming through on her iPad, 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.320 and that was what was used. Even though the lawsuit 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.960 was dismissed because it was a very silly lawsuit, total 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.960 waste of time. But that is the kind of thing 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.240 that we really you really need to be asking yourself, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.960 is you know, where are my messages going? 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.360 Who is seeing my messages, who is seeing my emails? 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:47.240 What is it connected to? 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:48.120 Yeah? 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.600 Because yeah, because it can just look like that too. 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.440 I would say that's exactly right. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.360 Is I think I had a good friend who works 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.120 in another area of security who and this is like 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.400 how we learn these things, right, is that folks who 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.480 work in the parts of security that deal with, for example, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.639 intimate partner violence or the sort of quote unquote in 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.600 household surveillance threat model I think is vastly underestimated. I 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.199 can't recall the figures at the moment, but one of 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.880 those more recent reports from if one how actually had 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:19.280 detailed just how frequently actually that sort of like how 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.960 it is also this like intimate partner violence situation that 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.120 comes up also in a regnancy or abortion criminalization case, 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.480 and so you know, this person challenged me to think 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.359 about the exact threat model of the unlocked iPad on 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.199 the on the family coffee table, and thinking about like 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.600 when we share information and we share devices kind of 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.960 like where does it go? So Like, Actually, our first 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.679 piece of recommendation that we often give is is it 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:46.080 can sound deceptively simple and it doesn't sound technical at all, 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.960 but it is to think about like who you are 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:52.119 telling about your experience and about like you know, your 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.640 abortion or wanting to have an abortion, and then understanding 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.359 whether you've been clear about your boundaries, like do you 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:00.800 expect them to not share or tell with others? Like 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.160 can you delete any messages with them? Would they ask 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.040 if you ask them after the fact to delete things 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.520 for you, would they absolutely do that. I think you've 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:09.720 can be really challenging to kind of like zoom out 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.720 and realize, like you know, it's often not as easy 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.040 as it sounds to like kind of do this mental 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.480 inventory and think about all the different ways that like 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.360 me and my best friend talk or you know, when 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.080 I mentioned things to people offhand, we don't have a 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.119 really good I think like social practice of you know, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.560 understanding the implication of like sharing other people's information without 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.879 their permission, and so like, you know, it's very impactful, 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.520 but also very difficult, and it can't be very individual 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.200 for all of us to kind of think more carefully 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.800 about with whom we share things, and how we ask 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.440 people to keep our confidence, and how we can even 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.879 offer each other the ability to like delete things that 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.800 we don't want to exist indefinitely. I think one of 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.560 the biggest sort of existential struggles that crosses over to 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.200 where people get support for abortions from like organizations also 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.800 includes the fact that I know has been discussed many 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.520 times on this podcast, that there is a difference in 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.080 how much information is kept depending on where you were 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.640 having a conversation on your phone. So an SMS text message, 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.000 those little green bubbles that go back and forth between 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.239 you and possibly other people who are on iOS like 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.199 or iOS and Android combination conversation you're friends with and 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.000 an Android might have a green bubble come back to you. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.680 That basically means that that is going as an SMS 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.760 text message to your phone carrier, and that means that 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.960 it's going quote unquote in plain text, totally unencrypted to 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.320 the cell tower, and it's being held by that phone 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.960 carrier unencrypted, readable as it is as you typed it 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:40.159 in as far as. 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:40.920 We know forever. 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:43.679