1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Cool Media. 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast that is 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 2: quite often about abortion in this country. I'm your host, 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: Mia Long. Things have been very bad under the last 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 2: administration and the administration before that, and the administration before that, 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 2: and going back a long long time, things have been 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: not good. They've been steadily getting worse, and there is 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 2: a lot of fear and I think a lot of 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: is very justified that things are going to get even 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 2: worse under Trump. And to talk about what we need 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: to be afraid of and what we don't is Kate 12 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 2: Bertash who's the executive director of the Digital Defense Fund, 13 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: and also Crystal, who's an abortion worker and also a 14 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: volunteer for abortion hotlines. So both of you two, welcome 15 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: to the show. 16 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 3: Excellent, Thanks for having us on. 17 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me. 18 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you both, and 19 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: I'm also excited to let Kate talk a little bit 20 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: about what the Digital Defense Fund is. 21 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 5: Excellent, thanks so much, longtime listener, first time color I suppose. 22 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: So. 23 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 5: The Digital Defense Fund is an organization that's been around 24 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 5: for actually since the last election. It was started in 25 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 5: response to Trump winning for the first time and We're 26 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 5: an organization that was put together to provide free digital 27 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 5: security and technology resources for the frontlines of what then 28 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 5: was just the abortion access movement. We've since moved to 29 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 5: support other variety of autonomy and liberation movements, but we 30 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 5: provide free digital security evaluations trainings. We do a lot 31 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 5: of project management work to help people set up what 32 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 5: they'd like to change about their systems and security, and 33 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 5: we also help people pay for it, which is a 34 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 5: really wonderful way to get to kind of see through 35 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 5: our values. So and excited to be on here today 36 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 5: to talk a little bit more about the implications for 37 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 5: both organizations and individuals. 38 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: The very first wave impact of this election has been 39 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of sort of fear about 40 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: what's coming. And I wanted to, I guess, ask you 41 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: about what kinds of fears you've been seeing and and 42 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: maybe talk a little bit about which ones are more 43 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: justified than others, because I think there, I mean, there's 44 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: been some concern that I think is justified as good, 45 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: and there's also been some stuff that is kind of 46 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: not rooted in what the threats are. 47 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's a great time anytime this happens 48 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 5: to sort of get to ask and answer the question, 49 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 5: which is like, how do we know? And I think 50 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 5: we're sort of lucky in this way that we know 51 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 5: what are likely to be risks now to both people 52 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 5: who are seeking abortions as well as people who help 53 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 5: them get their folks as well, like Crystal. I know 54 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 5: we'll provide some additional color to this as well, but 55 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 5: we know what kind of threats face people facing abortions 56 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 5: and those who help them, because unfortunately a lot of 57 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 5: these threats have been happening for the last several decades, 58 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 5: people have been prosecuted for suspicion of ending their own pregnancies. 59 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 5: We get a lot of really incredible and insightful data 60 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 5: from organizations like IF one how who put out these 61 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 5: reports that are called self care Criminalized, and they look 62 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 5: backwards across all of the different cases that have happened 63 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 5: to space and try to come up with sort of 64 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 5: like these key aspects. And one of the big things 65 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 5: that we know that I'm sure we're going to talk 66 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 5: about a lot through this episode is that the core 67 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 5: way that people come to the attention of law enforcement 68 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 5: for seeking to allegedly end their own pregnancies is through 69 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 5: usually someone they know reporting them, or someone responsible for 70 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 5: their care. So that might be like healthcare worker, social worker, 71 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 5: other representative agent of the state, and it can be 72 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 5: really devastating to kind of hear and I think internalize 73 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 5: that it's often people's family members like X or friends, 74 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 5: neighbor who might turn somebody in expecting or misunderstanding that 75 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 5: it is a crime to end your own pregnancy. I 76 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 5: think one of the things that's really hard about this 77 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 5: is that it involves some of the ways in which, 78 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 5: like I guess it's what you would call very unfortunately 79 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 5: typical policing practices, the way in which people's rights are 80 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 5: violated when they are interrogated, when they are pressured into 81 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 5: disclosing information. There's something called consent search that it unfortunately 82 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 5: be ends being a very common feature of these kinds 83 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 5: of cases, which is where you're put in a room 84 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 5: and you're talking to representative agent and state or a 85 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 5: police officer, and they sort of pressure you into agreeing 86 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 5: to unlock and disclose often your phone and other device, 87 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 5: or to otherwise share information quote unquote voluntarily. And it's 88 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 5: easy to see why people kind of get pressured into that. 89 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 5: So that is something that tends to happen in many 90 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 5: kinds of prosecutions of crimes or alleged crimes, and I 91 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 5: think it's hard for a lot of people to imagine 92 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 5: what that's like to you know, be pulled over and 93 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 5: searched in this way, or like they're often like people 94 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 5: are not the targeted victims of something like stop and frisk, 95 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 5: and so it's sort of hard to imagine in your 96 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 5: mind the way in which somebody is information or their 97 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 5: data or their case comes to the attention of law enforcement. 98 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 5: And so we like tend to then imagine these other 99 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 5: threats that feel perhaps closer to our daily experience, especially 100 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 5: as like often people who are not racially targeted by police, 101 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 5: who are not targeted by the family policing system or 102 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 5: have their pregnancies surveilled by the hospital systems. So people 103 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 5: like to imagine then that. I think a big one 104 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 5: that we all hear and I think we're all going 105 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 5: to take a deep breath at the same time is 106 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 5: period tracking apps. Yeah, I thought it was kind of remarkable, 107 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 5: as Crystal, I'm sure you've heard this too, mm hm. 108 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 5: And I would love to at lease space, Crystal for 109 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 5: you to add any context to sort of like the 110 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 5: threats that are that are present versus stuff that people imagine. 111 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 5: I know, we're going to spend a lot of time 112 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 5: talking about our friend the period. 113 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 6: So at the time of recording, it's been like about 114 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 6: almost a month since election. 115 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 4: Day, and you know, I answer the phone for a. 116 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 6: Couple of different places, places for both work and volunteering, 117 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 6: and there's been a lot of fear, you know, and 118 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 6: not saying that, like abortion access has been without fear 119 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 6: up until this point, but people are very afraid. And 120 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 6: you know, I'm getting a lot of questions about people 121 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 6: asking like can I be arrested for giving you my information? 122 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 6: Sending in my ID, giving you my real name? Ordering 123 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 6: medication online? Can the United States get my records if 124 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 6: I order from this provider overseas? Such as women on 125 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 6: web and just yeah, people asking like can I be arrested? 126 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 6: You know, can I do this? Will I be in trouble? 127 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 4: And it is something that is going We're going to. 128 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 6: See an increase in criminalization and increase in abortion bans. 129 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 6: It is a complicated answer, you know. The strait of 130 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 6: it is that yet you can access abortion medication online 131 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 6: even if you're in a band state, even if you're 132 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 6: in a state with a total abortion ban, you can 133 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 6: order the medication from reliable resources online and have it 134 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 6: mail to you. 135 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 4: And people do this every day. 136 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 6: Hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of people do this every day 137 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 6: without any issue. But there is also risk, and it's 138 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 6: kind of like what Kate was saying, where people tend 139 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 6: to it seems like people don't know what the risk 140 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 6: has been or what it looks like, because, like Kate 141 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 6: was saying, there's like I been all these years of 142 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 6: pregnancy criminalization, and we know what it looks like, and 143 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 6: it tends to not be what people are worrying about 144 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 6: right now, where people seem to be thinking like that 145 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 6: the police are going to come and arrest them for 146 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 6: putting in this order along with hundreds of other people 147 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 6: in a given day, or that the police are somehow 148 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 6: going to get their period tracker information on their on 149 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 6: their phone, and you know, like of course, you know, 150 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 6: practice dicial security in a way that makes you feel comfortable, 151 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 6: Like if you don't want to use a period tracking app, 152 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 6: you know there are safer ones to. 153 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 4: Use, or you don't have to use it. 154 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 6: But the fact of the matter is is that even 155 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 6: if you are using pen and paper to record your period. 156 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 6: If you have an abusive partner, they're going to be 157 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 6: able to take pictures and collaborate with police. So the 158 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 6: biggest threats are always, you know, as the data shown, 159 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 6: like Kate was saying, going to be healthcare workers and 160 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 6: the people that you know such as partners, family members, neighbors, friends, 161 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 6: et cetera, who are going to get access. 162 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 4: To pictures, screenshots, and of course the police and warrants. 163 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 6: It's not going to look like the Handmad's scale, where 164 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 6: somebody's like coming in and going and forcing you to 165 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 6: do something and dress a certain way or etc. It's 166 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 6: not going to be like anything new and fancy. It's 167 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 6: going to be the same old police surveillance and criminalization. 168 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 4: That we've been seeing. 169 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 6: But there are ways in which we can protect ourselves 170 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 6: when we're doing that. When somebody calls and they ask me, 171 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 6: can I get in trouble for ordering this medication online? 172 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 6: And people can get really in trouble for anything in 173 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 6: the United States. You know, if the police want to 174 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 6: go after you for something, they're going to find something, 175 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 6: So you just have to not leave evidence. Like so, yeah, 176 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 6: you can order the medication online, but You can also 177 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 6: use signal and we can know that Kate's probably going 178 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 6: to go more into this, but you can make sure 179 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 6: you have disappearing messages. You can use encrypted emails and 180 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 6: search engines. You have to make sure you're thinking about 181 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 6: who can see your data and you know where your 182 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 6: data is being recorded. And that's really like, if you 183 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 6: want to protect yourself in terms of avoiding criminalization for 184 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 6: abortion and pregnancy outcomes, and you know, having a secure 185 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 6: and safe abortion in the United States, then you have 186 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 6: to look at the basics like this. And I'm going 187 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 6: to let Kate talk about that a little bit more 188 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 6: because I know that you have all the good information 189 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 6: that the Digital Defense one has looked into about the 190 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 6: apps and then how to delete data and what data 191 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 6: to delete and how to think about this. 192 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think one of the really tough things, right 193 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 5: is that like so like neither I or Crystal or attorneys, 194 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 5: but often people are just getting a lot of advice 195 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 5: from attorneys, and some of our work here is to 196 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 5: make sure that like when you get sort of this 197 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 5: idea of when something might be criminalized, or often like 198 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 5: in this circumstance where we just like don't know actually 199 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 5: how it's going to show up a lot. Yet we're 200 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 5: trying to think about sort of what are the ways 201 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 5: we can have our digital devices and our technology sort 202 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 5: of support us with these by default type of settings. 203 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 5: One of the things that's really tough to I think 204 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 5: understand until you've been through it is sort of like 205 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 5: what it looks like when you go through any kind 206 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 5: of investigation. I think the other hard kind of like 207 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 5: context to get from the way we talk about it 208 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 5: now is that a lot of how pregnancy is criminalized, 209 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 5: that sort of scaffolding, that infrastructure was built during the 210 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 5: drug war. So one of the most common kinds of 211 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 5: pregnancy criminalization in America is drug testing people who are 212 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 5: pregnant or come to give birth without their consent. And 213 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 5: you know, so we basically consider like being an alleged 214 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 5: drug user to be the sort of like primary way 215 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 5: that our decision of like how much the digital evidence 216 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 5: matters has like kind of come to take shape. So 217 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 5: often when an investigation is happening, the police will look 218 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 5: for where are all the sources of information I can 219 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 5: find about this, because like the human body is like 220 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 5: not super compliant with like. 221 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 3: Digital forensic evidence. 222 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 5: Everydediary processes I think it's like one of the most 223 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 5: magical things about humans is that, you know, our bodies 224 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 5: defy the letter of law in so many wonderful ways. 225 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 5: But that means that they sort of have to then 226 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 5: go to this like digital body of evidence to kind 227 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 5: of tell the story or as like all the wonderful 228 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 5: lawyers that advise us like to say, to sort of 229 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 5: like be able to draw the dots or the bndes 230 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 5: between the dots and form this kind of like coherent 231 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 5: set of facts of what happened between one moment to 232 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 5: the next. So often when we're like imagining all of 233 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 5: the data that lives in our phone, because unfortunately, in 234 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 5: many cases, when you are perhaps coerced into consenting to 235 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 5: the search of a device, they will often take your 236 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 5: phone and then have you unlock it. It gets plugged 237 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 5: into a device that makes clone of the entire drive, 238 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 5: and then they can sort of with many different techniques 239 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 5: kind of leisurely look through it for keywords to kind 240 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 5: of tell where there might be evidence somewhere on your 241 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 5: phone that you, for example, when on the internet search 242 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 5: for and purchased abortion medication. So yes, like period track 243 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 5: and data might be one portion of that but unfortunately, 244 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 5: in all the cases that we've seen, or at least 245 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 5: in and most of the ones that we're most familiar with, 246 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 5: all of that quote unquote plain text data. So where 247 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 5: you've just written out in your own unencrypted words into 248 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 5: a search bar in the search engine on your phone, 249 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 5: or you've sent a text message to a very close 250 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 5: contact with somebody telling them how you feel about your 251 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 5: pregnancy that you desire to end it, perhaps your plan 252 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 5: to buipills, even the receipt that comes into your inbox. 253 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 5: It's not necessary then to go to all these companies 254 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 5: and go file a for a warrant and get all 255 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 5: that information, because now it's in just plain text, quote 256 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,119 Speaker 5: unquote on your phone, and that is far more information 257 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 5: than the abstract information that might come out of a 258 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 5: period tracker. So unfortunately cops don't tend to use these 259 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 5: in cases that we've seen because it's quite simply not necessary. 260 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 5: That kind of like plain text admission of your state 261 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 5: of mind or the statement of your intent has unfortunately 262 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 5: been the sort of core evidence that comes up. And 263 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 5: I think this has like a lot of like really 264 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 5: quite sad implications. I know, in prior to prepare for 265 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 5: this episode, we were discussing a couple of cases that 266 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 5: I know folks might be more familiar with. A big 267 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 5: one that came up is, you know, the case of 268 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 5: a mother and daughter out of Nebraska who were having 269 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 5: a discussion around allegedly helping the daughter to find an 270 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 5: end for her pregnancy over Meta's Facebook messenger. And I 271 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 5: think what I find really quite devastating about it, for 272 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 5: many reasons, is that these messages were actually ones that 273 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 5: like I think any of us could hope to have 274 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 5: with a very supportive parent or other person in our life. 275 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 5: Is like, why we have, you know, these conversations so 276 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 5: that we can feel connected and support it through such 277 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 5: a complex and affecting process. It then becomes very sad 278 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 5: to me that it becomes a criminal matter just because 279 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 5: it was in a place that that conversation, you know, 280 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 5: Meta did not have this family's back in terms of 281 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 5: encrypting those messages or ensuring that they were free to 282 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 5: speak of what they wish when they wish by default. 283 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 5: So I think, like when we start to give out advice, 284 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 5: it's been important for us at Digital Defense Fund to 285 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 5: kind of work backwards. I know it's been an exist crisis. 286 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 5: I think for everybody in the digital security space to 287 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 5: know that like the list of advice I could give 288 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 5: you on how to protect yourself when going through these transactions, 289 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 5: or when seeking support, or like just having a normal 290 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 5: you know, questions and going on the internet being able 291 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 5: to google them and get them answered. That we have 292 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 5: to kind of like start from the basics, because like 293 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 5: you have the right to find information from reliable resources, 294 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 5: You have the right to buy pills from a reliable source. 295 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 5: You have the right to like seek that kind of 296 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 5: connection and support from people in your life. And so 297 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 5: we're trying to cut down on like all the infinite 298 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 5: amount of advice that we could give and try to 299 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 5: like narrow it to like what is actionable, what has 300 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 5: the greatest impact potentially in the cases we've seen. And 301 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 5: I know we're going to dig into it, but I 302 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 5: would love to leave room to tack a little bit 303 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 5: more about that whenever, it's a good time in this 304 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 5: conversation to go through our top three action items. 305 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: So before we get to that, unfortunately we are under capitalism, 306 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: which means we have to do these ads. Moving back shortly. 307 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 4: And we are back another lawsuit. This is a little 308 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 4: different becase it's not a criminal charge. It was a 309 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 4: lawsuit in Texas. 310 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 6: And I want to bring up just as an example 311 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 6: of like how you know our data can betray us 312 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 6: in these moments, is there was and this was a 313 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 6: really silly lawsuit has been dismissed, But there was a 314 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 6: Texas man who filed a wrongful death lawsuit accusing three 315 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 6: women of helping his exife obtained abortion pills. I believe 316 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 6: I think it was dismissed last year, or maybe it 317 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 6: was earlier this year. It wasn't even under the aid 318 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 6: and event in law in Texas. It was actually, you know, 319 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 6: they they sought a different avenue. There actually hasn't been 320 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 6: a successful lawsuit against an abortion seeker under Aida bet 321 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 6: law or any other law in Texas in the last 322 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 6: two years, which I think is just something worth bringing up, 323 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 6: is that, you know, we actually haven't seen that happen 324 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 6: yet other than this case. But what happened in this 325 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 6: case is this person was planning on terminating their pregnancy. 326 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 6: They were talking to some friends who were helping them out, 327 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 6: and their iPhone was synced up to their iPad. So 328 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 6: if anyone's familiar with that, you can have your your 329 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 6: I messages app here on both devices. The I messages 330 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 6: that are coming to your phone are also going to 331 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 6: be going to your iPad, And her ex husband took 332 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 6: pictures of the I messages coming through on her iPad, 333 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 6: and that was what was used. Even though the lawsuit 334 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 6: was dismissed because it was a very silly lawsuit, total 335 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 6: waste of time. But that is the kind of thing 336 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 6: that we really you really need to be asking yourself, 337 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 6: is you know, where are my messages going? 338 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 4: Who is seeing my messages, who is seeing my emails? 339 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 4: What is it connected to? 340 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 3: Yeah? 341 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 4: Because yeah, because it can just look like that too. 342 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 3: I would say that's exactly right. 343 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 5: Is I think I had a good friend who works 344 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 5: in another area of security who and this is like 345 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 5: how we learn these things, right, is that folks who 346 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 5: work in the parts of security that deal with, for example, 347 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 5: intimate partner violence or the sort of quote unquote in 348 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 5: household surveillance threat model I think is vastly underestimated. I 349 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 5: can't recall the figures at the moment, but one of 350 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 5: those more recent reports from if one how actually had 351 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 5: detailed just how frequently actually that sort of like how 352 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 5: it is also this like intimate partner violence situation that 353 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 5: comes up also in a regnancy or abortion criminalization case, 354 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 5: and so you know, this person challenged me to think 355 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 5: about the exact threat model of the unlocked iPad on 356 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 5: the on the family coffee table, and thinking about like 357 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 5: when we share information and we share devices kind of 358 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 5: like where does it go? So Like, Actually, our first 359 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 5: piece of recommendation that we often give is is it 360 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 5: can sound deceptively simple and it doesn't sound technical at all, 361 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 5: but it is to think about like who you are 362 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 5: telling about your experience and about like you know, your 363 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 5: abortion or wanting to have an abortion, and then understanding 364 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 5: whether you've been clear about your boundaries, like do you 365 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 5: expect them to not share or tell with others? Like 366 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 5: can you delete any messages with them? Would they ask 367 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 5: if you ask them after the fact to delete things 368 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 5: for you, would they absolutely do that. I think you've 369 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 5: can be really challenging to kind of like zoom out 370 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 5: and realize, like you know, it's often not as easy 371 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 5: as it sounds to like kind of do this mental 372 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 5: inventory and think about all the different ways that like 373 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 5: me and my best friend talk or you know, when 374 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 5: I mentioned things to people offhand, we don't have a 375 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 5: really good I think like social practice of you know, 376 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 5: understanding the implication of like sharing other people's information without 377 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 5: their permission, and so like, you know, it's very impactful, 378 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 5: but also very difficult, and it can't be very individual 379 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 5: for all of us to kind of think more carefully 380 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 5: about with whom we share things, and how we ask 381 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 5: people to keep our confidence, and how we can even 382 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 5: offer each other the ability to like delete things that 383 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 5: we don't want to exist indefinitely. I think one of 384 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 5: the biggest sort of existential struggles that crosses over to 385 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 5: where people get support for abortions from like organizations also 386 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 5: includes the fact that I know has been discussed many 387 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 5: times on this podcast, that there is a difference in 388 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 5: how much information is kept depending on where you were 389 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 5: having a conversation on your phone. So an SMS text message, 390 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 5: those little green bubbles that go back and forth between 391 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,239 Speaker 5: you and possibly other people who are on iOS like 392 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 5: or iOS and Android combination conversation you're friends with and 393 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 5: an Android might have a green bubble come back to you. 394 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 5: That basically means that that is going as an SMS 395 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 5: text message to your phone carrier, and that means that 396 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 5: it's going quote unquote in plain text, totally unencrypted to 397 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 5: the cell tower, and it's being held by that phone 398 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 5: carrier unencrypted, readable as it is as you typed it 399 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 5: in as far as. 400 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 3: We know forever. 401 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 5: It can vary depending on whether or not you move 402 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 5: to a different carrier, But unfortunately, phone carriers have a 403 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 5: very long history also of disclosing that information readily on request, 404 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 5: either from law enforcement or from other agencies. And I 405 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 5: think that is troubling. I think, like no person would 406 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 5: really like to know that, regardless of what that you 407 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 5: intend to do with your text message. But it's why 408 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 5: we often then encourage people as like sort of a 409 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 5: second step to try and use encrypted chat with Signal 410 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 5: or another trusted and encrypted chat. Again sounds overly simplistic, 411 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 5: but I think having those disappearing messages on, especially between 412 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 5: people who are seeking support from one another, whether it's 413 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 5: somebody in your life or another organization that's helping you 414 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 5: to get your abortion, there really is something to that 415 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 5: ability to again speak freely, to be best friends, helping 416 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 5: your friends you know, allegedly get abortion medication, or to 417 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 5: being a mom you know there to support your child, 418 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 5: no matter what. I think, it's just something really wonderful 419 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 5: about how using disappearing messages with signal like reflects the 420 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 5: values that we actually have already with each other. And 421 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 5: just like make sure that technology companies or corporations or 422 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 5: law enforcement don't get to get in the way of 423 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 5: how we want to live our lives. 424 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 7: So yeah, yeah, so really supporting somebody through an abortion 425 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 7: includes digital security. 426 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 4: Yes, same with providers to people who are answering the phones. 427 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 4: Digital security is one of the number one priorities. 428 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 6: And yeah, if you're supporting somebody with an abortion, that 429 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 6: should be your number one priority as well. 430 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: Well. 431 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 5: And like I bet people like you know, when you 432 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 5: talk to people like you're often I imagine one of 433 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,239 Speaker 5: the first people that they're expressing themselves to it all 434 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 5: about what they're going through. 435 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 3: And you know, I know that that the point is to. 436 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 5: Help people get to their procedure, but often they're bringing 437 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 5: a lot of other things with them and they're not 438 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 5: sure if they're important. I remember, like you mentioning this, 439 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 5: but just the amount of weight that is for for 440 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 5: y'all as a support too. 441 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, And like people are scared for for good reason. 442 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 6: You know, we do live in a fascist country and 443 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 6: a police surveillance state, so you know, their fears are founded, 444 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 6: but there are a lot of excellent resources. They're not alone, 445 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 6: like you know, you and I know this cap but 446 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 6: there are so many people who's got the back. 447 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 4: Of everyone who needs an abortion, and you know, you 448 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 4: may not know the safe way of going about it. 449 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 6: But there are people who who are committed to digital 450 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 6: security and safety and you're in, you're and you avoiding criminalization. 451 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 6: So you know, part of the service is also reassuring 452 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 6: people of that too, that it is possible to have 453 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 6: a safe abortions. 454 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 7: Even still, the next thing that I know that we 455 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 7: were talking about Kate in terms of like really practical, 456 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 7: like what you can do now to protect yourself is 457 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 7: having a plan for when you need to go get 458 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 7: health care and you have to interface with like a 459 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 7: medical team, a medical site such as an er a clinic. 460 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: I'm an obgyn, a doctor of any kind. 461 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 6: Because I think I believe the number one source of criminalization, 462 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 6: like who's reporting who who is criminal, Like who's calling 463 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 6: the police, who's reporting these and giving over the information 464 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 6: is as often healthcare worker. 465 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 4: I believe that is the number one source. 466 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 6: So you know, you do that is something to keep 467 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 6: you to I am a healthcare worker, but it's it's 468 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 6: just a fact that that's something that we all need 469 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 6: to be mindful of. And as a patient somebody is 470 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 6: seeking healthcare, it's completely appropriate to be thinking of your 471 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 6: own security and your safety when you're. 472 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 4: If you need to access healthcare. 473 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 6: So you know, one thing is that luckily abortion is 474 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 6: very safe and very effective. And if you don't feel 475 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 6: comfortable going to an er for very good reasons, there 476 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 6: are many good reasons to not want to go to 477 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 6: r including cost, including your safety and security, the chance 478 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 6: of criminalization. There is a free medical resource and a 479 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 6: free legal resource that you can call. I'm going to 480 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 6: talk about the medical resource first. There is the Miscarriage 481 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 6: an Abortion Hotline or m A hotline dot org. But 482 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 6: you can call and get some you know, feedback from 483 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 6: a doctor about Hey, do I even need to go 484 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 6: to the er? 485 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 4: Is this normal? Is something wrong? You actually can run 486 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 4: that by a safe person before just going to the er. 487 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 6: And that's like one example of like having a plan, 488 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 6: you know, like Okay, I think I might need to 489 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 6: go to the er, you know, let me. 490 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 4: Check with a trusted resource. 491 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 6: Let me check with the miscarriage and Abortion Hotline if 492 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 6: I can get some feedback on what's going on with 493 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 6: some of my symptoms. And you know, it's like this 494 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 6: extra kind of added support that you can access as 495 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 6: a pregnant person or you know, if you're having a miscarriage, 496 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 6: if you're having an abortion, to assess your risk and 497 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 6: to see if you can avoid even going to a 498 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 6: medical plight given that you know, going to an emergency 499 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 6: room in a banned state is something that does increase 500 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 6: the risk of criminalization. 501 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 5: Yes, and I think it was from our peers M 502 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 5: and A hotline, And then I know the other hotline 503 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 5: that if you have questions also, the repro Legal Hotline 504 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 5: is a wonderful resource that I know in all the 505 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 5: show notes will include these. We try to include along 506 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 5: with the Miscarriage and Abortion Hotline, so you have folks 507 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 5: you can call who are professionals to ask about medical questions, 508 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 5: if folks you can call answer questions about legal questions 509 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,239 Speaker 5: about your abortion of pregnancy experience. I know that it's 510 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 5: really hard because often when folks are in a hospital setting, 511 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 5: we're sort of socialized to disclose everything. You know, we 512 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 5: want to tell our doctor what's wrong and tell them 513 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 5: everything we took, and you know, you worry it might 514 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 5: be relevant, but I was reassured, I think by many 515 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 5: other professionals in the space, that doctors treat based on 516 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 5: the symptoms that you present with, regardless of how they 517 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 5: got there. You might be a physician where you don't know. 518 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 5: So you know, if you just tell folks what's going 519 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 5: on with your body, what you are seeing, what you 520 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 5: were feeling and experiencing, it is their job to treat 521 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 5: you regardless of what you choose to share. And I 522 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 5: would say that that's actually a true regardless of what 523 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 5: healthcare condition you come into the ear with, it is 524 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 5: your right to only disclose as much as you feel 525 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 5: safe doing so. So I think like that was something 526 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 5: that I know, again we're not used to thinking about 527 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 5: that as like a digital security measure, but it is 528 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 5: an information security measure, and I think an operational security 529 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 5: measure that you know, we've had to like then realize 530 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 5: that that's actually probably almost more important to tell people 531 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 5: before we start getting into this nitty gritty of like 532 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 5: things to do with your phone, is to understand that 533 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 5: those principles that we believe that you know, the human again, 534 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 5: the human body is very varied and how it experiences 535 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 5: something like pregnancy, miscarriage, and abortion, and that you know, 536 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 5: folks have a responsibility to treat you regardless of you know, 537 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 5: what's in your phone or what happened before that or 538 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 5: this like statement of facts that are relevant to a 539 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 5: courtroom and not to your care. 540 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 3: So, yeah, do. 541 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 2: You too have anything else you want to make sure 542 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: the audience knows before we head out? 543 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, just kind of like one more piece is kind 544 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 5: of our last piece of the puzzle, so you know, 545 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 5: just to rearterrate because I know it's good to hear 546 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 5: things repeated again, you know, with the actual kind of pregnancy, criminalization, 547 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 5: digital security advice, we talk about understanding who you're disclosing 548 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 5: stuff too, making sure they are clear on your expectations. 549 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 5: Try to if you can have conversations with them in 550 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 5: a secure place or private place like signal with disappearing 551 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 5: messages on. For our second item, we're going to make 552 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 5: a plan for if we need to get care after 553 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 5: the fact and ensure that we're trying to again have 554 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 5: our support people. Also understand that you know, doctors treat 555 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 5: you based on the symptoms you present with. That is, 556 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 5: you don't have to tell them anything else that you 557 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 5: do not wish to disclose. And the third thing is 558 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 5: that something that I think as digital security practitioners we 559 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 5: kind of forget is super important, which is that, like 560 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 5: you know, I think I run into this conflict whereas 561 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 5: like experts or smart people, we try to like imagine 562 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 5: in our mind, like how we would have this perfectly 563 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 5: like footprint free abortion, you know, like this like you 564 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 5: signal use Tori's bitcoin, kind of like strange way of architecting, 565 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 5: you know, privacy in our mind. And I call it 566 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 5: the ghost abortion, like that it's it's a myth. You 567 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 5: can't have one. There's no such thing as an abortion 568 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 5: that leads no footprint. But I think we forget then 569 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 5: that it actually is super meaningful to delete what's within 570 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 5: our power to delete. So our third recommendation for folks 571 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 5: is to like be aware of what's collected and and 572 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 5: then ensure that you know that you can delete your 573 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 5: browser history, you can delete your Google Maps history from 574 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 5: like driving to the clinic. You can delete your emails, 575 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 5: you can delete messages on certain platforms. And I think 576 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 5: just like understanding that deleting what you can is actually 577 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 5: super meaningful. I actually didn't know untill I got this 578 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 5: job that certain platforms, like even Google products, like if 579 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 5: you delete something from it, it is purge from the 580 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 5: servers like something like two and a half months later. 581 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 5: So when you delete stuff, it's very meaningful. I think 582 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 5: there you get more options than ever to decide like 583 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 5: how long you want to keep something. And it does 584 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 5: make it so that that primary thing we talked about, 585 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 5: like if somebody were to take my phone from me 586 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 5: and to like you know, make a clone of it 587 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 5: and try to look through it, at least it's deleted. 588 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,479 Speaker 5: That copy is no longer on my device. Even if 589 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 5: they would have to go to like you know, get 590 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 5: a warrant later, that. 591 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 3: Is still great. 592 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 5: It still gives me and my council time to respond 593 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 5: and also allows me to access my right to do process. 594 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 5: And I think so like these are like these three 595 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 5: simple things I know that will give to link that 596 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 5: our guide that kind of puts this all in a 597 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 5: row and very plain language. You also have a Spanish 598 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 5: language guide for it as well. But just to know that, 599 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 5: like you know, these things are within our power. I 600 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 5: think it's really easy to get tangled up in the 601 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 5: idea of like abstract data and things that are really 602 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 5: tough for us to always know when they're generated, like 603 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 5: ad tracker data or you know who is reselling or 604 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 5: doing something with my period tracking apps? There are great 605 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 5: options that are local only to your phone, like Yuki app. 606 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 5: If you are concerned about that other apps, seeing whether 607 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 5: or not they use best practice of security, if they've 608 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 5: responded and said like how they would respond to a 609 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 5: llegal request, that's awesome. I think that just sort of 610 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 5: taking that uncertainty away is great because tracking your period 611 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 5: is really important. As Crystal would tell you, it is 612 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 5: an essential way that you're going to know how pregnant 613 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 5: you are and find the option that's safest for your circumstances. 614 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 5: So yeah, and that that I'll pass to Crystal for 615 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 5: anything else you think our folks should know before we depart. 616 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, tracking your period is important because if you don't 617 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 6: know what's going on with your period and you get pregnant, 618 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 6: it can delay your care. 619 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 4: And you know, optimally you're. 620 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 6: Getting the safe, quickest, most comfortable care for you, right, So. 621 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 4: It's really good to track that. I use Yuki. What 622 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 4: I love about Yuki is that it. 623 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 6: Has a pass code and it stores everything locally and 624 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 6: you can set to auto delete your data. And I 625 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 6: love all of those things, so you know, and you know, 626 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 6: I don't like using my paper calendar. If you love 627 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 6: using your paper calendar, go use your paper camp. You know, 628 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 6: whatever you want to do. But it is very important 629 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 6: to know when your last period was because it can 630 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 6: just make your care more timely. And that's really important. 631 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 6: Given the abortion restrictions and the abortion vans now we 632 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 6: are only you know, admittedly they're going to get worse. 633 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 6: This is going to get less safe. There is going 634 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 6: to be greater risk of criminalization. So when people call, 635 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 6: when people call and they ask like can I access pills. 636 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 4: Yes you can. 637 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 6: You know, no matter what Trump does, you're going to 638 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 6: be able to get abortion pills. There are countries all 639 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 6: over the world that have total abortion vans and they 640 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 6: have the use abortion pills all the time. You know, 641 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 6: it's not new in America. But you know, you do 642 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 6: have to have a digital security plan while you're doing that. 643 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 6: Like so yes, you can order pills online, but yes, 644 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 6: also have a digital security plan and keep this stuff 645 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 6: in mind. It's really it's part of your healthcare plan. 646 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 7: Now. 647 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, because you have the right to use safe, accessible, 648 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 5: common sense like amazing technology products to actually obtain the 649 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 5: abortion that you want. We really really do believe that 650 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 5: like that part of autonomy, it includes digital autonomy as 651 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 5: well as bodely autonomy. They're all part and parsonally can't 652 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 5: have one without the other. So thanks for having us on. 653 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks Fiah. 654 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to close with one more thing 655 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: that is is related to this, but it's also what 656 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: general advice. Don't talk to cops. Oh god, you know, 657 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: I think that the common thing people say it is 658 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: it is legal for them to lie to you, and 659 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: that is true, but it's not just as legal for 660 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: them to lie to you. It is their job to 661 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: lie to you. You cannot trust a single word that 662 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: comes out of their mouths because it is their job 663 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: to get you to confess to a crime or to 664 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: get information out of you. They'll let you confess your crime, 665 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: So invoke your right to remain silent, get a fucking lawyer, 666 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 2: don't talk to them. And you know, listen, this is 667 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: advice that's not just coming from me, right like this, 668 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 2: this is the advice you will get from every single 669 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: person who does who does any kind of from offense. 670 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 2: This is what you'll get from a public defender. This 671 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: is what you'll get from anyone who has even sort 672 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: of interacted with the legal system. And this is also 673 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 2: true even if they tell you that, oh, you're not 674 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 2: a suspect, you're just a blah blah blah. We're trying 675 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 2: to get information. It is their job to lie to you. 676 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: Think about it roughly the same way of like if 677 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: you're dealing with like a country secret police, how much 678 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 2: information would you give them? The answer is do not. 679 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: Simply do not do this. 680 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 5: Exactly and you know, no, no matter what that there 681 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 5: are people again like. 682 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: Crystal Sap who will support you. 683 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, there are amazing teams across the United States, from 684 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 5: medical support to legal support, were there for you, and 685 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 5: they would all, I think wholeheartedly endorse as do we. 686 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 3: Yes, please do not talk to cops. That's a great 687 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 3: note to end on. 688 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, thank you to you both for coming on. 689 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 2: And maybe we live to see a world better than 690 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: this one where you could just do this stuff and 691 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 2: not have to have any concerns. 692 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, one day, but until then, we can do this 693 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 6: very securely. 694 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 5: Yes, we got our own backs. We can do this together. 695 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 5: Thanks for having us on. 696 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: It Could Happened Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 697 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 698 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out from the iHeartRadio app, 699 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We can 700 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen here listed directly 701 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.