1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:05,020 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,140 --> 00:00:13,930 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, 3 00:00:13,980 --> 00:00:17,290 Speaker 2: and Jerry's here, too, keeping us proper. And this is 4 00:00:17,350 --> 00:00:20,150 Speaker 2: Stuff You Should Know, the Sit Up Straight edition. 5 00:00:21,970 --> 00:00:25,410 Speaker 1: I got to say, after researching this, I am a 6 00:00:25,450 --> 00:00:26,590 Speaker 1: big fan of Emily Post. 7 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:32,390 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a surprisingly cool person, especially... for somebody who 8 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:35,019 Speaker 2: literally wrote a book on etiquette. Yeah. 9 00:00:35,540 --> 00:00:37,659 Speaker 1: I didn't know much about any of this. And now 10 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: I'm like, I want to know about her number one fan. 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,060 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's one person on planet earth that likes 12 00:00:42,100 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: her more than me. Sure. 13 00:00:43,700 --> 00:00:47,170 Speaker 2: Maybe number two, we'll say three. All right. But yeah, 14 00:00:47,290 --> 00:00:49,350 Speaker 2: still a big fan. Are you going to buy the book, 15 00:00:49,470 --> 00:00:49,970 Speaker 2: the blue book? 16 00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:53,850 Speaker 1: Uh, I mean, I probably should. I'm sure it goes 17 00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:57,530 Speaker 1: to something like her foundation or I want to support 18 00:00:57,550 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: her financially still years after her passing. 19 00:01:00,020 --> 00:01:03,580 Speaker 2: That'll do it. Um, I know that I read some 20 00:01:03,660 --> 00:01:06,380 Speaker 2: think pieces on people who went and read that book 21 00:01:06,459 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 2: and were like lessons I learned from reading this book. 22 00:01:10,180 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: And it's pretty much roundly described as lovely, charming. 23 00:01:14,470 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 24 00:01:15,620 --> 00:01:17,929 Speaker 2: And also useful still, because one of the things that 25 00:01:17,990 --> 00:01:21,209 Speaker 2: set her apart is because of the way she approached 26 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:24,910 Speaker 2: etiquette and rules of etiquette and how to, you know, 27 00:01:24,970 --> 00:01:29,970 Speaker 2: learn social graces. The, the, It was like a progressive 28 00:01:30,030 --> 00:01:32,500 Speaker 2: way of doing it. So she was able to basically say, 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: this is what's really important. So a lot of the 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,620 Speaker 2: stuff that she talks about is completely applicable today. 31 00:01:40,740 --> 00:01:41,899 Speaker 1: Some might say more so. 32 00:01:42,140 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. More needed for sure. Yeah. 33 00:01:45,580 --> 00:01:48,930 Speaker 1: So, I mean, they had etiquette guides for sure. It's 34 00:01:48,970 --> 00:01:51,910 Speaker 1: not like she, even though, you know, you might commonly 35 00:01:51,950 --> 00:01:54,210 Speaker 1: hear people say she literally wrote the book on etiquette. 36 00:01:54,250 --> 00:01:56,950 Speaker 1: She did. But she wrote one of the many books 37 00:01:57,010 --> 00:02:01,030 Speaker 1: on etiquette. Hers was a little bit different than the 38 00:02:01,070 --> 00:02:02,790 Speaker 1: others in a lot of ways that we're going to 39 00:02:02,810 --> 00:02:04,170 Speaker 1: talk about kind of here and there. But one of 40 00:02:04,190 --> 00:02:07,740 Speaker 1: the big ways is she was all about ethics. And 41 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,020 Speaker 1: as we'll see, you know, we're going to detail her life. 42 00:02:10,060 --> 00:02:13,140 Speaker 1: She was born into money, but she was basically like, hey, listen, 43 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,150 Speaker 1: just because you have money doesn't mean that you are respectable. 44 00:02:18,230 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: You have to have a grounding in ethics. No matter 45 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: who you are and if you don't have money and 46 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: if you're, you know, not born into like a great 47 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,140 Speaker 1: family or something, then that doesn't mean you can't be 48 00:02:30,180 --> 00:02:32,609 Speaker 1: a part of what she called good society. You just 49 00:02:32,650 --> 00:02:34,850 Speaker 1: have to know like you have to be grounded in 50 00:02:34,950 --> 00:02:37,590 Speaker 1: ethics and how to know like how to keep a 51 00:02:37,610 --> 00:02:39,690 Speaker 1: clean house and how to behave with manners. 52 00:02:40,669 --> 00:02:43,250 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is kind of groundbreaking because up to that point, 53 00:02:43,310 --> 00:02:45,650 Speaker 2: most etiquette books were basically like, this is what the 54 00:02:45,790 --> 00:02:48,210 Speaker 2: ultra rich expect of you if you're in their presence. 55 00:02:48,270 --> 00:02:50,340 Speaker 2: And if you don't do this, you're going to embarrass yourself. 56 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: So memorize all of these. And she definitely turned it 57 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,340 Speaker 2: on its head, which, as you said, her being a 58 00:02:56,419 --> 00:03:01,500 Speaker 2: society or socialite, I guess, herself was really something. She 59 00:03:01,540 --> 00:03:04,810 Speaker 2: had like the background to basically say, no, there's a 60 00:03:04,830 --> 00:03:06,970 Speaker 2: better way to do this. Not coming from the outside. 61 00:03:07,010 --> 00:03:08,570 Speaker 2: She was on the inside and that helped. 62 00:03:09,100 --> 00:03:13,350 Speaker 1: Yeah. And also like she wasn't so stodgy that she 63 00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:16,910 Speaker 1: didn't embrace change when it was like kind of clearly happening. 64 00:03:16,950 --> 00:03:19,210 Speaker 1: And as we'll see, you know, this book she started 65 00:03:19,250 --> 00:03:21,630 Speaker 1: to write and came out during the Roaring Twenties. So 66 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:24,190 Speaker 1: it was a lot of people, including her sons, thought 67 00:03:24,220 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: like this probably isn't the right time for this kind 68 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: of thing. Like that kind of stuff is old fashioned. 69 00:03:29,220 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: And she just said, just hold my tea and I'll 70 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:31,940 Speaker 1: take care of this. 71 00:03:32,460 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the U.S. in particular has long had a 72 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: preoccupation with etiquette for a big reason. One is we 73 00:03:41,140 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: established our country as a society of equals. There's not 74 00:03:44,420 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: an aristocracy, which is where people receive their etiquette from, say, 75 00:03:49,130 --> 00:03:51,890 Speaker 2: in like England or the U.K. You just did what 76 00:03:51,930 --> 00:03:55,090 Speaker 2: the aristocrats did or, you know, that was your etiquette. 77 00:03:55,470 --> 00:03:57,970 Speaker 2: We don't have an aristocracy here. So it was like 78 00:03:58,050 --> 00:04:00,630 Speaker 2: the wealthy. And like I said, up to that point, 79 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: Up to the point of Emily Post, the wealthy were 80 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:05,670 Speaker 2: just like, or etiquette books were like, here's what the 81 00:04:05,710 --> 00:04:08,290 Speaker 2: wealthy tell you to do. The problem is, is there 82 00:04:08,310 --> 00:04:09,950 Speaker 2: are a lot of people in the middle class who 83 00:04:09,970 --> 00:04:11,870 Speaker 2: were kind of working their way up because in the 84 00:04:11,910 --> 00:04:15,780 Speaker 2: United States, wealth equals aristocracy, not being born with a title. 85 00:04:16,660 --> 00:04:20,420 Speaker 2: And those people resented the heck out of the upper 86 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,789 Speaker 2: classes who were just ready and waiting to embarrass them 87 00:04:23,810 --> 00:04:26,789 Speaker 2: when they slipped up. And so Emily Post came and 88 00:04:26,830 --> 00:04:28,990 Speaker 2: was like, hey, like you said, you don't have to 89 00:04:29,029 --> 00:04:31,890 Speaker 2: be born wealthy. You don't have to. Your ancestors didn't 90 00:04:31,910 --> 00:04:35,670 Speaker 2: have to come on the Mayflower. Anybody can learn etiquette 91 00:04:35,750 --> 00:04:39,750 Speaker 2: and everybody should practice good etiquette. And that was, again, revolutionary. 92 00:04:40,540 --> 00:04:44,260 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So she was born into a rich family. 93 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,220 Speaker 1: Like I said, her dad, Bruce Price, she was born 94 00:04:47,260 --> 00:04:50,660 Speaker 1: Emily Price in October of 1872. But her dad was 95 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:56,510 Speaker 1: a pretty prominent architect in Baltimore. Her mom, Josephine Lee Price, 96 00:04:56,570 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: was an heiress to a coal fortune. And she was 97 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:03,020 Speaker 1: basically an only child. She very sadly had a brother 98 00:05:03,060 --> 00:05:06,100 Speaker 1: who died in infancy. So she was raised an only child. 99 00:05:06,140 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: And at five, they moved to New York City. And 100 00:05:09,550 --> 00:05:11,290 Speaker 1: they were a part of the good society there because 101 00:05:11,310 --> 00:05:13,630 Speaker 1: they had money. They were not part of that of 102 00:05:13,790 --> 00:05:16,969 Speaker 1: what was called the 400, which was the super elite 103 00:05:17,050 --> 00:05:19,750 Speaker 1: upper crust that, you know, a lot of them had 104 00:05:19,950 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: aristocratic lineage. But She was in New York and like 105 00:05:24,020 --> 00:05:25,980 Speaker 1: going to finishing school, that kind of thing. 106 00:05:26,580 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. And you mentioned the 400. I read that that 107 00:05:29,460 --> 00:05:33,980 Speaker 2: was a way for this elite upper class of old 108 00:05:34,060 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: money and old lineage to differentiate themselves from the newly 109 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,860 Speaker 2: minted wealthy people who were starting to rub elbows with them. 110 00:05:42,460 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: That list was one way to do it. Another way 111 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,310 Speaker 2: to do it was to found a little village called 112 00:05:47,350 --> 00:05:51,190 Speaker 2: Tuxedo Park, a little north of New York City. And 113 00:05:51,350 --> 00:05:54,350 Speaker 2: it was created as like an enclave, an escape for 114 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:58,910 Speaker 2: the incredibly wealthy old money to get away from new money. 115 00:05:59,570 --> 00:06:02,310 Speaker 2: And I want to preface this, Chuck, by telling everybody 116 00:06:02,330 --> 00:06:05,250 Speaker 2: I'm not making this up, but Tuxedo Park in New 117 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 2: York is where the tuxedo came from, aka the dinner jacket. 118 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: That's right. And her dad in 1885 built four cottages there. And, 119 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,330 Speaker 1: you know, cottage is a It's a loose description. These 120 00:06:21,390 --> 00:06:25,510 Speaker 1: are very lovely, very large homes that he built. I 121 00:06:25,570 --> 00:06:27,850 Speaker 1: looked them up and I was expecting, you know, what 122 00:06:27,890 --> 00:06:28,790 Speaker 1: I think of as a cottage. 123 00:06:28,870 --> 00:06:29,050 Speaker 2: Right. 124 00:06:29,410 --> 00:06:32,789 Speaker 1: Same. Which is something like 1,200 square feet. These are big, 125 00:06:32,830 --> 00:06:36,610 Speaker 1: beautiful houses. Tuxedo Park looks amazing. I would love to 126 00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:39,370 Speaker 1: visit there one day, in fact. But he built four 127 00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:42,050 Speaker 1: of these, rented out three of them, used one for 128 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:48,430 Speaker 1: the family, and, you know, Everyone started like going there 129 00:06:48,529 --> 00:06:51,710 Speaker 1: in the summers and some people started living there year round. 130 00:06:51,810 --> 00:06:55,529 Speaker 1: And the Prices were one of those families. Yeah. 131 00:06:55,750 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: And Emily was just doing basically everything that was expected 132 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,740 Speaker 2: of her. Like you said, she went to finishing school 133 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,659 Speaker 2: and at age 17, she premiered at a debutante ball. 134 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,310 Speaker 2: I think this is 1889. Following the script perfectly, she 135 00:07:10,350 --> 00:07:13,530 Speaker 2: met her future husband at that debutante ball. His name 136 00:07:13,570 --> 00:07:15,510 Speaker 2: was Edwin Post, and he didn't come from a ton 137 00:07:15,550 --> 00:07:18,130 Speaker 2: of money, but he could trace his lineage back pretty 138 00:07:18,170 --> 00:07:21,500 Speaker 2: far to old New Amsterdam. So he had that going 139 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: for him. And Emily brought the money to the marriage. 140 00:07:24,220 --> 00:07:27,660 Speaker 2: This is apparently not unusual at the time. And they 141 00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 2: just went ahead and had two sons, Ned and Bruce. 142 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: I guess Bruce the Two, the Deuce. Bruce the Deuce. 143 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: They got there eventually. 144 00:07:36,730 --> 00:07:39,450 Speaker 1: Would they call him? How do you handle that if 145 00:07:39,470 --> 00:07:40,990 Speaker 1: you're just named after a grandparent? 146 00:07:41,230 --> 00:07:44,110 Speaker 2: I think they differentiated him by calling him Bruce Lee Post. 147 00:07:45,170 --> 00:07:48,010 Speaker 1: Oh, is that it? 148 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,620 Speaker 2: I don't know. Different last name. Little Bruce, Old Bruce, 149 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,660 Speaker 2: Wrinkly Bruce, Chubby Bruce. Who knows? 150 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,020 Speaker 1: I didn't know if there was an official way you 151 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: honor someone besides just the name. 152 00:07:58,860 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: I think it's the second. Is it really? 153 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,260 Speaker 1: I thought that was just if you're named after your parent. 154 00:08:03,670 --> 00:08:04,310 Speaker 2: That's Junior. 155 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,100 Speaker 1: Junior. Oh, okay. So it's the second, huh? 156 00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: I believe so. I'm making this up as I go along, 157 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,970 Speaker 2: but it's based on 50 years of paying attention on Earth. 158 00:08:13,710 --> 00:08:15,670 Speaker 1: I got you. So that's my problem. 159 00:08:16,430 --> 00:08:16,610 Speaker 2: What? 160 00:08:17,590 --> 00:08:18,190 Speaker 1: Don't pay attention. 161 00:08:18,290 --> 00:08:19,090 Speaker 2: That is not true. 162 00:08:19,110 --> 00:08:20,010 Speaker 1: I probably would have picked this up. 163 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:22,390 Speaker 2: You just pay attention to stuff that's important to you. 164 00:08:24,140 --> 00:08:28,940 Speaker 1: So, yeah, Ned was born in 1893, and Bruce II, 165 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: Deuce Bruce, Bruce the Deuce, was born in 1895. 166 00:08:30,940 --> 00:08:31,020 Speaker 2: Very. 167 00:08:34,290 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: disappointedly, I guess she didn't have a very good marriage. Uh, 168 00:08:37,490 --> 00:08:39,770 Speaker 1: Edwin doesn't seem like a very good dude. He was 169 00:08:40,070 --> 00:08:43,670 Speaker 1: into sailing. Uh, she was prone to seasickness. So they 170 00:08:43,710 --> 00:08:47,590 Speaker 1: didn't spend a lot of time together, like with shared passions. Uh, 171 00:08:47,670 --> 00:08:50,350 Speaker 1: at one point he said that he had committed matrimony 172 00:08:50,470 --> 00:08:54,270 Speaker 1: and was sentenced to life, uh, for it. So not 173 00:08:54,330 --> 00:08:57,429 Speaker 1: cool to say something like that. Uh, and when her 174 00:08:57,470 --> 00:08:59,729 Speaker 1: dad died, she was, she was a daddy's girl for sure. 175 00:08:59,790 --> 00:09:01,950 Speaker 1: Very close to her father when he died in 1903 176 00:09:01,950 --> 00:09:06,170 Speaker 1: on his deathbed. Apparently, she had a flair for writing, 177 00:09:06,230 --> 00:09:08,809 Speaker 1: and he said, you should go write. Do that. That's 178 00:09:08,830 --> 00:09:12,010 Speaker 1: what you're passionate about. And over the next year, after 179 00:09:12,070 --> 00:09:15,990 Speaker 1: he passed away, she wrote and published her first novel, 180 00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:17,050 Speaker 1: The Flight of the Moth. 181 00:09:18,050 --> 00:09:22,710 Speaker 2: Yes. It's like a society novel about a woman who 182 00:09:22,750 --> 00:09:24,910 Speaker 2: falls in love with a man who's already engaged. And 183 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,860 Speaker 2: this is actually one of six novels that she wrote, 184 00:09:28,410 --> 00:09:30,500 Speaker 2: some of which were really popular. I only saw that 185 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 2: one was poorly reviewed. One was mixed reviewed and the 186 00:09:33,730 --> 00:09:36,250 Speaker 2: other four were pretty well received. So she was a 187 00:09:36,290 --> 00:09:39,550 Speaker 2: good writer, a fiction writer. And that's what she wanted 188 00:09:39,610 --> 00:09:44,210 Speaker 2: to be. Unfortunately, as her career's taking off, her marriage 189 00:09:44,270 --> 00:09:50,740 Speaker 2: is deteriorating. Edwin's love of his ship or boating and 190 00:09:51,410 --> 00:09:54,660 Speaker 2: her seasickness is not their only incompatibility. One of the 191 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: big ones I think you could probably point to was 192 00:09:56,780 --> 00:10:00,510 Speaker 2: him cheating on her all the time. Yeah. And he 193 00:10:00,590 --> 00:10:04,370 Speaker 2: was the kind who I think didn't make too much 194 00:10:04,429 --> 00:10:07,510 Speaker 2: of a secret of it. I don't think he talked 195 00:10:07,550 --> 00:10:09,770 Speaker 2: about it openly because it's not clear whether she had 196 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: full knowledge of it before he finally told her. But 197 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,300 Speaker 2: the reason he finally told her is because he was 198 00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:19,660 Speaker 2: being blackmailed. And rather than submit to this blackmailing scheme 199 00:10:19,710 --> 00:10:21,610 Speaker 2: that had been going on for a while, he decided 200 00:10:21,690 --> 00:10:24,250 Speaker 2: he was going to be the hero of their circle 201 00:10:24,290 --> 00:10:27,689 Speaker 2: of friends, I guess most of whom had been blackmailed 202 00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:31,790 Speaker 2: as well, and expose the blackmailers. The problem is, is 203 00:10:31,860 --> 00:10:36,260 Speaker 2: like this brought tremendous amounts of shame onto their marriage 204 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:38,900 Speaker 2: and onto Emily in particular. Yeah. 205 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:42,819 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess hell hath no fury like a 206 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,929 Speaker 1: man being blackmailed. because he was willing to throw it 207 00:10:46,970 --> 00:10:51,429 Speaker 1: all away and embarrass, I guess he didn't feel too 208 00:10:51,450 --> 00:10:54,910 Speaker 1: much embarrassment, but definitely embarrass Emily with all this stuff. 209 00:10:55,850 --> 00:10:59,210 Speaker 1: Later on, she would basically say that they agreed that 210 00:10:59,230 --> 00:11:02,450 Speaker 1: they would expose the blackmailers as a sort of a team. 211 00:11:03,070 --> 00:11:08,189 Speaker 1: But according to her biographer, Laura Claridge, that was just 212 00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:10,530 Speaker 1: something she said to sort of make it look better. 213 00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: Like she had some agency because apparently He just said, hey, 214 00:11:13,970 --> 00:11:16,350 Speaker 1: I'm doing this and that's going to happen. 215 00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:18,790 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was basically like, heads up, your life's about 216 00:11:18,809 --> 00:11:20,770 Speaker 2: to get really terrible. I just wanted to let you 217 00:11:20,809 --> 00:11:23,850 Speaker 2: know the day before it happens. Essentially, he protected her 218 00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:26,470 Speaker 2: in no way, shape or form on top of humiliating her. 219 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:30,770 Speaker 2: So they got divorced the next year and she moved 220 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: on with the kids. I didn't get the impression that 221 00:11:33,420 --> 00:11:35,500 Speaker 2: she shed too many tears over it, which is good. 222 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,140 Speaker 2: I mean, a guy who says he committed matrimony is 223 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,660 Speaker 2: not exactly a catch, you know? 224 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. 225 00:11:41,710 --> 00:11:44,370 Speaker 2: So how about we take a break and we'll rejoin 226 00:11:44,650 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: newly single Happening Lady Emily Post. 227 00:11:49,840 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: Thank you. Okay, Chuck. 228 00:12:19,970 --> 00:12:22,730 Speaker 2: So Emily has a lot more free time on her hands, 229 00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:26,390 Speaker 2: not having to keep tabs on her gallivanting husband because 230 00:12:26,410 --> 00:12:30,110 Speaker 2: she's now divorced. So she threw herself into a book, 231 00:12:30,390 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: another novel, Purple and Fine Linen. Could not find anything 232 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 2: about what that was about. That had some positive reviews. 233 00:12:38,250 --> 00:12:40,569 Speaker 2: Two years later, she came out with Woven in the 234 00:12:40,610 --> 00:12:43,850 Speaker 2: Tapestry that did not impress viewers. That was the one 235 00:12:43,870 --> 00:12:45,870 Speaker 2: I was talking about that didn't get very well reviewed. 236 00:12:46,590 --> 00:12:49,890 Speaker 2: And then shortly after that, she released another one, The 237 00:12:49,929 --> 00:12:54,170 Speaker 2: Title Market, which was about European titled people marrying American 238 00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:57,390 Speaker 2: wealthy people. And all of these are like people are 239 00:12:57,460 --> 00:12:59,900 Speaker 2: fascinated by this, just like they are today. It's like. 240 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,820 Speaker 2: inside scoops of how society lives. But one of the 241 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,860 Speaker 2: things that I think gets overlooked about Emily Post, she 242 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:11,740 Speaker 2: was not just dishing gossip. She was not being salacious. 243 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,900 Speaker 2: She was providing a very clear picture into society without 244 00:13:18,110 --> 00:13:20,530 Speaker 2: going all Truman Capote and making everybody hate her. 245 00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:25,850 Speaker 1: For sure. So while she's doing this, putting out novel 246 00:13:25,890 --> 00:13:29,980 Speaker 1: after novel, she's also writing articles in various periodicals. She 247 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: wrote one for the delineator called What Makes a Young 248 00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: Girl Popular in Society. So at this point, she's she's 249 00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:40,569 Speaker 1: sort of edging toward what she would eventually get, like, 250 00:13:40,750 --> 00:13:43,230 Speaker 1: you know, widespread acclaim for kind of writing about some 251 00:13:43,250 --> 00:13:45,990 Speaker 1: of this stuff, a little bit of society, a little 252 00:13:46,010 --> 00:13:50,010 Speaker 1: bit of ethics. She published another novel in 1911 called 253 00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:53,010 Speaker 1: The Eagle's Feather, kind of mixed reviews on that one. 254 00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:56,699 Speaker 1: And then she starts writing articles on like, hey, if 255 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,500 Speaker 1: you're going to have a baby, here's how you should 256 00:13:58,540 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: plan for expenses. She wrote about Tuxedo Park. So, again, 257 00:14:03,540 --> 00:14:05,900 Speaker 1: she's just sort of inching toward what would be her, 258 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,570 Speaker 1: you know, her big tome. 259 00:14:08,660 --> 00:14:11,890 Speaker 2: I'm talking about having a baby reminds me of, I guess, 260 00:14:11,929 --> 00:14:15,150 Speaker 2: a tweet or something I saw recently. It said, how 261 00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:17,150 Speaker 2: does somebody look at a baby and think I'm going 262 00:14:17,170 --> 00:14:18,350 Speaker 2: to name that kid Gary? 263 00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: Oh, poor Gary's. 264 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,229 Speaker 2: I know. But it is true that it's not a 265 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,190 Speaker 2: baby's name. You know what I mean? Yeah. 266 00:14:26,630 --> 00:14:28,990 Speaker 1: It's also a name you don't hear a lot anymore 267 00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:29,850 Speaker 1: for new names. 268 00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:34,330 Speaker 2: True. But it's also a middle-aged man's name, very clearly. 269 00:14:34,990 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: But that middle-aged man had to be a baby at 270 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:37,410 Speaker 2: one point. 271 00:14:38,020 --> 00:14:38,540 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. 272 00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 2: So- There's something that's going on here. Just like she 273 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: basically told everybody that she and Edwin had kind of 274 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,970 Speaker 2: collaborated to come up with the way to expose these blackmailers. 275 00:14:52,270 --> 00:14:54,330 Speaker 2: She also told people that she was kind of pushed 276 00:14:54,470 --> 00:15:01,250 Speaker 2: into becoming an etiquette writer, an advice columnist, basically. Again, 277 00:15:01,390 --> 00:15:04,170 Speaker 2: Laura Claridge has basically dug up that. No, she was 278 00:15:04,350 --> 00:15:07,140 Speaker 2: basically going after it. And even her agent was like, 279 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: you don't want to do that. It's going to bore you. 280 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:11,900 Speaker 2: It's beneath you. And she still kept at it until 281 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: she got a project in. Oh, I don't know. I 282 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:18,060 Speaker 2: think it was the lady's home journal. She finally got 283 00:15:18,140 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: one or no, it was Collier's, I think one of 284 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:20,780 Speaker 2: the two. 285 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,090 Speaker 1: Yes, she she went on a road trip, actually. She 286 00:15:24,110 --> 00:15:27,970 Speaker 1: wrote another book that was serialized, but not picked up 287 00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:30,690 Speaker 1: for publishing in book form. So she was like, all right, 288 00:15:30,850 --> 00:15:34,690 Speaker 1: I need to clear my head. My sons are adults 289 00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:37,630 Speaker 1: and they're going on a road trip in Europe. They 290 00:15:37,810 --> 00:15:40,130 Speaker 1: apparently were all super close because it wasn't a drag 291 00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: for mom to come along. And then not only that, 292 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: after that road trip, Ned was like, hey, I'm going 293 00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:47,859 Speaker 1: to keep going. They built this new Lincoln Highway. I'm 294 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: going to do a cross country trip across across the 295 00:15:50,580 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: United States. And mom, I can't think of anyone I'd 296 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,820 Speaker 1: rather have along with me. So she goes on this 297 00:15:56,820 --> 00:15:59,550 Speaker 1: 45 day trip across country. And that's where Collier is. 298 00:15:59,970 --> 00:16:02,690 Speaker 1: was like, hey, why don't you write about your road 299 00:16:02,730 --> 00:16:06,830 Speaker 1: trip or whatever? She wrote these articles, compiled into a 300 00:16:06,850 --> 00:16:09,690 Speaker 1: book later called By Motor to the Golden Gate. But 301 00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:11,310 Speaker 1: that didn't do so well either. 302 00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:14,590 Speaker 2: No, I read that on that road trip, they had 303 00:16:14,630 --> 00:16:17,330 Speaker 2: to ship the heavy silver picnic set that they had 304 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:20,220 Speaker 2: brought with them back east because it was weighing the 305 00:16:20,290 --> 00:16:21,510 Speaker 2: car down too much. 306 00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:22,540 Speaker 1: Amazing. 307 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,010 Speaker 2: So I misspoke earlier, Chuck. I said that she was– 308 00:16:26,410 --> 00:16:29,770 Speaker 2: angling for like a monthly column or something on etiquette. 309 00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:31,650 Speaker 2: She already had those, like you said, she had a 310 00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:34,650 Speaker 2: couple of them. But rather than get like that monthly 311 00:16:34,770 --> 00:16:37,850 Speaker 2: regular one that she wanted, she jumped over that and 312 00:16:37,950 --> 00:16:42,150 Speaker 2: ended up with a book deal. The thing was, when 313 00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:45,410 Speaker 2: she got this book deal, I think in 1920, to 314 00:16:45,450 --> 00:16:48,290 Speaker 2: write a book on etiquette, between the time where she 315 00:16:48,330 --> 00:16:51,290 Speaker 2: had been writing those columns and 1920, the world had 316 00:16:51,330 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: changed drastically. Because World War I had killed so many 317 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,500 Speaker 2: people and the Spanish flu had killed so many people 318 00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: that the people who were left were like really happy 319 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: to be alive. And the idea of following books of 320 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,810 Speaker 2: etiquette was not in the zeitgeist, which is why, like 321 00:17:06,830 --> 00:17:09,350 Speaker 2: you said, her sons at the time were like, this 322 00:17:09,410 --> 00:17:12,210 Speaker 2: doesn't seem like the right time for this kind of project. 323 00:17:12,910 --> 00:17:16,310 Speaker 1: Yeah, but she was excited about it. She was like, 324 00:17:16,369 --> 00:17:18,570 Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to bang this thing out. It'll 325 00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:20,350 Speaker 1: be a short little book on etiquette with my own 326 00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:26,129 Speaker 1: spin on it. meticulous researcher and organizer. She was never like, hey, 327 00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:30,510 Speaker 1: I'm the expert on this thing. I know all of 328 00:17:30,730 --> 00:17:32,729 Speaker 1: like everything about etiquette. So you got to listen to me. 329 00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:35,970 Speaker 1: She was asking friends. She was asking random people on 330 00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:38,389 Speaker 1: the street. She was taking polls like from the public 331 00:17:38,850 --> 00:17:40,629 Speaker 1: on what they thought to, you know, she wanted to 332 00:17:40,650 --> 00:17:45,129 Speaker 1: put out something really thorough and well-researched. And so, you know, 333 00:17:45,150 --> 00:17:48,290 Speaker 1: we like her. And she ended up writing a 619 334 00:17:48,290 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: page book called Etiquette, colon, in society and politics, in 335 00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: business and at home. And it was expensive. It would 336 00:18:01,940 --> 00:18:05,340 Speaker 1: have been about $ 75 in today's money. And it was 337 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,260 Speaker 1: super long, but people loved it. It became really popular 338 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,899 Speaker 1: pretty quickly. And I think she reached the top of 339 00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: the Publishers Weekly nonfiction bestseller list about eight months after 340 00:18:16,580 --> 00:18:16,980 Speaker 1: it came out. 341 00:18:17,570 --> 00:18:20,619 Speaker 2: Yes. I think they renamed it at some point to 342 00:18:20,650 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: the Blue Book of Social Usage, which I don't think 343 00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: is any better a title than the original one. And 344 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: she wasn't the only one coming out with the Book 345 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: of Etiquette at the time. But so Jane McGrath, who 346 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,050 Speaker 2: we used to work with, who is a great writer 347 00:18:35,070 --> 00:18:37,389 Speaker 2: at How Stuff Works and just a great person all around. 348 00:18:38,770 --> 00:18:41,490 Speaker 2: She wrote the article that we're basing this episode on. 349 00:18:42,330 --> 00:18:44,389 Speaker 2: And she was clearly a fan. I don't know if 350 00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:45,530 Speaker 2: you picked up on that, did you? 351 00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it seemed like she was into the article. 352 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 2: For sure. She uses a rival or a competitor who 353 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,260 Speaker 2: released a book around the same time, a woman named 354 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: Lillian Eichler, who revised a book of etiquette that had 355 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: already been out by Emily Holt. And the premise of 356 00:19:01,859 --> 00:19:04,699 Speaker 2: this was learn this stuff or you'll be embarrassed in 357 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:11,050 Speaker 2: social events or whatever. And Emily Post was not like that, 358 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,370 Speaker 2: as we've said a few times, like, It was everybody 359 00:19:14,380 --> 00:19:16,710 Speaker 2: should learn etiquette because it's a lot more than just 360 00:19:16,930 --> 00:19:19,270 Speaker 2: how to use a dinner fork or what to, you know, 361 00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:21,970 Speaker 2: how to greet somebody. Those are all very important. Those 362 00:19:22,010 --> 00:19:24,350 Speaker 2: are part of etiquette. But that is not the basis 363 00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:28,169 Speaker 2: of etiquette. And anybody who says that is wrong, wrong, wrong. 364 00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:30,410 Speaker 2: I think that was the blurb on the dust jacket. 365 00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:35,250 Speaker 1: So, you know, it's 619 pages. So there's a lot 366 00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:38,450 Speaker 1: in it. But she talks about, you know, how to 367 00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:42,380 Speaker 1: have a proper conversation with someone. Um, obviously all kinds 368 00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: of things about like invitation cards, thank you notes, how 369 00:19:46,220 --> 00:19:48,470 Speaker 1: to keep up your house in a way that's presentable. 370 00:19:49,820 --> 00:19:53,340 Speaker 1: You know, you when introducing people, younger people are introduced 371 00:19:53,540 --> 00:19:56,909 Speaker 1: to older people. But if you're a gentleman, you are 372 00:19:56,990 --> 00:20:00,730 Speaker 1: always presented to a lady first. Don't put on airs 373 00:20:00,770 --> 00:20:03,409 Speaker 1: like I don't want to say mixed messages, but at 374 00:20:03,450 --> 00:20:05,890 Speaker 1: times she was like, you know, don't put on airs 375 00:20:05,950 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: with your vocabulary. But at other times she was like, 376 00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: but you shouldn't say this. You should probably say this. 377 00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:16,570 Speaker 1: And it was just, you know, reflected like what she 378 00:20:16,609 --> 00:20:18,649 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, what she called good society. 379 00:20:19,230 --> 00:20:22,490 Speaker 2: Yeah. So good society or she says that best society. 380 00:20:22,570 --> 00:20:24,890 Speaker 2: And this is her her whole philosophy in a nutshell. 381 00:20:25,950 --> 00:20:28,090 Speaker 2: It's not a fellowship of the wealthy, nor does it 382 00:20:28,170 --> 00:20:30,889 Speaker 2: seek to exclude those who are not of exalted birth. 383 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: But it is an association of gentle folk, which is 384 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 2: my new favorite word. 385 00:20:35,530 --> 00:20:35,850 Speaker 1: I love it. 386 00:20:35,950 --> 00:20:39,409 Speaker 2: Of which good form and speech, charm of manner, knowledge 387 00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:43,209 Speaker 2: of the social amenities and instinctive consideration for the feelings 388 00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:46,389 Speaker 2: of others are the credentials by which society the world 389 00:20:46,510 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: over recognizes its chosen members. So to heck with being 390 00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 2: rich and automatically having manners, you know, and at the 391 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: same time to heck with being poor and never being 392 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,810 Speaker 2: able to reach people. a station in good society. And 393 00:21:00,850 --> 00:21:04,510 Speaker 2: this is just completely turning convention on its head. And 394 00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:08,430 Speaker 2: this is why Emily Post is revered and loved still today, 395 00:21:08,490 --> 00:21:12,650 Speaker 2: because that is the ethos that America, at the very least, 396 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:15,190 Speaker 2: was like, we're going to keep going with this. This 397 00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:16,670 Speaker 2: is right up our alley. 398 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:20,929 Speaker 1: Yeah, like it was that like while she was writing about, 399 00:21:21,790 --> 00:21:23,709 Speaker 1: you know, how a lady sits in a chair or 400 00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:26,090 Speaker 1: when to take off your hat in an elevator if 401 00:21:26,109 --> 00:21:28,850 Speaker 1: you're a gentleman. or how to host a tea or 402 00:21:28,869 --> 00:21:32,290 Speaker 1: a wedding, but there's this undercurrent of here's how to 403 00:21:32,330 --> 00:21:35,369 Speaker 1: be a good human. And I think that's why it 404 00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:38,810 Speaker 1: really like jumped out to me, especially like these days 405 00:21:38,850 --> 00:21:41,369 Speaker 1: when it just seems like all of this stuff is 406 00:21:41,410 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: kind of decorum and all this. And I'm not, I mean, 407 00:21:44,260 --> 00:21:48,220 Speaker 1: trust me, I'm no big etiquette guy or anything, but 408 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,700 Speaker 1: I just feel like there's been so much lost in 409 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,020 Speaker 1: just everyday sort of dealings with people that she, it 410 00:21:55,060 --> 00:21:56,220 Speaker 1: seemed important to her. 411 00:21:57,140 --> 00:22:00,010 Speaker 2: Well, I think it is. I think even people who 412 00:22:00,070 --> 00:22:04,850 Speaker 2: are like the most triggering, like purposefully, if you got 413 00:22:04,869 --> 00:22:08,140 Speaker 2: them on, you know, under the right circumstances and got 414 00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: them to just let their guard down and be normal, 415 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:12,860 Speaker 2: they would probably say like, yeah, I think I think, 416 00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:16,970 Speaker 2: you know, like having good manners is important. Right. And 417 00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:20,209 Speaker 2: I think the undercurrent of all of this, Chuck, is 418 00:22:20,410 --> 00:22:22,909 Speaker 2: being courteous to others. That was like the basis of 419 00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:26,260 Speaker 2: what she's saying. And that, I think, is what's lacking today. 420 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:29,139 Speaker 2: People are not courteous to other people or we're not 421 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:32,060 Speaker 2: courteous to one another like we were years ago. And 422 00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:37,820 Speaker 2: I mean, 20 years ago, maybe. Yeah, I think it's 423 00:22:37,859 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: just it's just courtesy and courteousness and just treating other 424 00:22:41,340 --> 00:22:44,619 Speaker 2: people like they're a worthwhile human being as a default. 425 00:22:45,460 --> 00:22:49,850 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Some of the stuff that she wrote about, obviously, 426 00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:52,910 Speaker 1: you know, when she's writing about the various, you know, 427 00:22:53,150 --> 00:22:56,429 Speaker 1: chambermaids and butlers and things like that, like most of 428 00:22:56,450 --> 00:23:00,430 Speaker 1: that stuff, you can't really apply as much today, I guess, 429 00:23:00,450 --> 00:23:02,689 Speaker 1: unless you're super wealthy and have a chambermaid. I don't 430 00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: even know if that's still a thing. But a lot 431 00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: of the stuff that she laid down is still like, 432 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,380 Speaker 1: you know, kind of rules around a wedding and stuff 433 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,060 Speaker 1: like that, like who pays for what, who like the bride. 434 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,020 Speaker 1: picks the bridesmaids' dresses and the bridesmaids pay for those. 435 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: Like that stuff is kind of locked in for life. 436 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,980 Speaker 1: And it's not like she didn't make this stuff up. 437 00:23:24,020 --> 00:23:25,540 Speaker 1: Like this is what was going on at the time, 438 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:26,570 Speaker 1: but she kind of codified it. 439 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,860 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. She also, one of the other things 440 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,950 Speaker 2: that she was remarkable in doing was creating characters. Because remember, 441 00:23:33,970 --> 00:23:38,150 Speaker 2: she had a background in fiction and also a background 442 00:23:38,490 --> 00:23:41,429 Speaker 2: in living among society as a member of it. So 443 00:23:41,470 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: she put these together and she created these characters with– 444 00:23:44,540 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: Funny names that really kind of got across what their 445 00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:51,740 Speaker 2: purpose was in these narratives. The Worldlies, the Kindhearts, I 446 00:23:51,780 --> 00:23:56,910 Speaker 2: love them. The Wellborns, the Guildings, the Toplofties. 447 00:23:57,530 --> 00:23:57,930 Speaker 1: That's fun. 448 00:23:58,030 --> 00:24:01,230 Speaker 2: There's another one, the Rich and Vulgars and the New 449 00:24:01,290 --> 00:24:05,270 Speaker 2: Old Riches. each of these played like a different part 450 00:24:05,330 --> 00:24:07,210 Speaker 2: and she could use them to say like this is 451 00:24:07,270 --> 00:24:09,550 Speaker 2: what this this group of person this group of people 452 00:24:09,570 --> 00:24:12,030 Speaker 2: would do and this is why you wouldn't do that 453 00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:17,450 Speaker 2: um and so in these uh like with these characters 454 00:24:17,490 --> 00:24:21,530 Speaker 2: i should say she creates narratives like mostly i think 455 00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:24,450 Speaker 2: i was skimming it and i think every chapter had 456 00:24:24,530 --> 00:24:27,010 Speaker 2: some sort of like narrative first and then she would 457 00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:31,350 Speaker 2: break down different like the different components of that narrative 458 00:24:31,369 --> 00:24:34,980 Speaker 2: like Dining or sending invitations or whatever to be a 459 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 2: narrative and then the nuts and bolts of it. 460 00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a fun way to do it. Like 461 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:45,210 Speaker 1: create a little hypothetical dinner party where some guy, you know, 462 00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:51,629 Speaker 1: farts when the soup comes. I would say that's probably Mr. Toplofty. 463 00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: And then she can write about how that's not the 464 00:24:54,619 --> 00:24:57,460 Speaker 1: thing to do. So it grabbed the reader's attention. I 465 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,060 Speaker 1: think it was way more fun than any etiquette book 466 00:25:00,140 --> 00:25:03,070 Speaker 1: that had preceded it. And she also wrote some about 467 00:25:03,090 --> 00:25:06,890 Speaker 1: like fashion. You know, she she was like, you should 468 00:25:06,910 --> 00:25:09,670 Speaker 1: be like try to keep up with the latest fashions, 469 00:25:09,730 --> 00:25:12,330 Speaker 1: but don't be sheep either and just follow it blindly. 470 00:25:13,230 --> 00:25:15,730 Speaker 1: But she didn't like what she called frumps or dowds 471 00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:18,649 Speaker 1: who like didn't make any attempts. So, you know, some 472 00:25:18,670 --> 00:25:21,209 Speaker 1: of that stuff is is not really etiquette. I think 473 00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:22,770 Speaker 1: she was just kind of throwing her own two cents 474 00:25:22,810 --> 00:25:24,390 Speaker 1: in about modern society in a way. 475 00:25:24,859 --> 00:25:27,850 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. OK, Chuck, let's take a break. When 476 00:25:27,890 --> 00:25:29,710 Speaker 2: we come back, I really want to talk about my 477 00:25:29,770 --> 00:25:33,980 Speaker 2: favorite part of the book, The New Ed's Disastrous Dinner Party. 478 00:25:34,040 --> 00:26:07,380 Speaker 1: OK, great. We'll be right back. OK. All right. Let's 479 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,350 Speaker 1: hear about your favorite part. 480 00:26:08,850 --> 00:26:10,950 Speaker 2: So did you see that little excerpt that I sent 481 00:26:10,990 --> 00:26:13,570 Speaker 2: you about their disastrous dinner party? 482 00:26:14,410 --> 00:26:14,750 Speaker 1: I did. 483 00:26:15,650 --> 00:26:18,149 Speaker 2: Did it just did it make you laugh out loud 484 00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:22,140 Speaker 2: at just how horrible this Mrs. Newwood felt? 485 00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:26,430 Speaker 1: I thought it was funny, but LOLing, that's too specific 486 00:26:26,510 --> 00:26:27,790 Speaker 1: of a ask for me. 487 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,660 Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough. I'll take that. But there was– so Mrs. 488 00:26:30,740 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: Newwood throws this dinner party, and at the end, Emily 489 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: Post explains what– all these different things go wrong. But 490 00:26:38,940 --> 00:26:41,020 Speaker 2: what Emily Post explained at the end was that what 491 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,620 Speaker 2: really went wrong is that Mrs. Newwood took too big 492 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:46,150 Speaker 2: of a swing right out of the gate to mix 493 00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:49,530 Speaker 2: my sports metaphors. And that she should have thrown a 494 00:26:49,570 --> 00:26:51,550 Speaker 2: bunch of little dinner parties with people she was more 495 00:26:51,630 --> 00:26:55,630 Speaker 2: comfortable with and throwing this really extravagant high end dinner 496 00:26:55,670 --> 00:26:59,430 Speaker 2: party with the most important people in town. Right. So 497 00:26:59,570 --> 00:27:02,660 Speaker 2: one of the things that happened was like the plates 498 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: were collected in like a terrible manner. And so Mrs. 499 00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 2: Worldly is watching this with almost hypnotized fascination as her 500 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 2: attention might be drawn to a street accident. against her will. 501 00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:18,300 Speaker 2: So basically the way that the, the server took up 502 00:27:18,340 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: the plates was equal to, uh, looking at a car 503 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,609 Speaker 2: accident and how you can't look away. 504 00:27:23,619 --> 00:27:24,730 Speaker 1: It's pretty good. 505 00:27:25,790 --> 00:27:28,649 Speaker 2: And it gets so bad that, uh, Mrs. Newwood, uh, 506 00:27:29,210 --> 00:27:31,830 Speaker 2: she says, there's no use in apologizing. There's no way 507 00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:35,460 Speaker 2: of dropping through the floor or waking yourself up. So 508 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 2: essentially this goes really, really horribly. And, um, it doesn't, 509 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: there's no resolution. Like Emily Post is like, yeah, that 510 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: was a really horrible dinner party. Here's how to avoid 511 00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,740 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So that was, yeah, I love 512 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:51,490 Speaker 2: it too. It's such a great little narrative, but poor Mrs. Newwood, 513 00:27:51,530 --> 00:27:53,550 Speaker 2: like really goes through the ringer. Yeah. 514 00:27:53,630 --> 00:27:55,750 Speaker 1: And just a great example of why this stood out 515 00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:57,950 Speaker 1: from the others. Like if you can make a book 516 00:27:58,010 --> 00:28:00,370 Speaker 1: on etiquette, a fun read, like you've done your job, 517 00:28:00,410 --> 00:28:01,230 Speaker 1: I think as an author. 518 00:28:03,310 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: And as a human being, I think as a legend. 519 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,620 Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, she also kind of, I feel 520 00:28:07,660 --> 00:28:11,230 Speaker 1: like would take, That seems like veiled pot shots at 521 00:28:11,250 --> 00:28:15,790 Speaker 1: her ex-husband because she was writing about how like all 522 00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: about core values and how like she says at one point, 523 00:28:19,660 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: like a man is not a gentleman if he doesn't 524 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: live up to a code of honor. It's more important 525 00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: than any mere dictum of etiquette. Like I think she's 526 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: definitely taking a veiled shot like, hey, just because you 527 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,090 Speaker 1: put on airs like you're this, you know, person that 528 00:28:33,130 --> 00:28:37,750 Speaker 1: maybe came from, you know, Dutch nobility. Like you're not 529 00:28:37,790 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 1: a real man. I doubt if you read this. Who 530 00:28:39,980 --> 00:28:41,110 Speaker 1: knows if you read it? Probably not. 531 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,990 Speaker 2: Surely one of his like chaps at the sports club 532 00:28:46,050 --> 00:28:47,330 Speaker 2: or something was like, oh, did. 533 00:28:47,230 --> 00:28:49,910 Speaker 1: You write this quote at the cricket grounds? 534 00:28:50,530 --> 00:28:54,070 Speaker 2: Yeah. And yeah, ultimately, what she was saying was certainly 535 00:28:54,090 --> 00:28:56,050 Speaker 2: this is a quote. Certainly what one is is a 536 00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:59,650 Speaker 2: far greater importance than what one appears to be. So, yeah, 537 00:29:00,170 --> 00:29:02,130 Speaker 2: you can learn all this stuff. And if you're a 538 00:29:02,670 --> 00:29:06,870 Speaker 2: SOB or a POS or anything like that. It's not 539 00:29:06,890 --> 00:29:08,710 Speaker 2: going to add up to a lot. People are going 540 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,390 Speaker 2: to see you eventually for what you are. And you're 541 00:29:11,410 --> 00:29:14,300 Speaker 2: not going to get invited to dinner parties anymore until 542 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:15,220 Speaker 2: you clean up your act. 543 00:29:15,260 --> 00:29:17,500 Speaker 1: That's right. If you're any set of letters, you're probably 544 00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: in trouble. 545 00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: Unless you're a BFF. 546 00:29:20,860 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: That's right. So another kind of cool thing she did 547 00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:27,180 Speaker 1: was kind of issue a charge to the upper class, 548 00:29:27,220 --> 00:29:30,380 Speaker 1: which was like, hey, you got to like be cool, 549 00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:34,620 Speaker 1: dudes and ladies. there are new people coming up the 550 00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:37,460 Speaker 1: ranks with money. There are other people that don't have 551 00:29:37,530 --> 00:29:40,100 Speaker 1: money and you need to be nicer to them and 552 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: more understanding if they're not like living up to whatever 553 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: standard that you've set. She's talking about in one part 554 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: about how to be a good guest. And she says, 555 00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:51,850 Speaker 1: you must learn as it were not to notice if 556 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,290 Speaker 1: hot soup is poured down your back. Like you have 557 00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:57,340 Speaker 1: to ignore if you have a bad dinner guest and 558 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: maybe they, you know, hand them a copy of this 559 00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:00,900 Speaker 1: book and don't turn your nose up at them. 560 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,650 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. You can't look down on the lower classes 561 00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:08,870 Speaker 2: just because they're lower classes or they're not doing this perfectly. 562 00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:10,970 Speaker 2: And again, I think that was kind of one of 563 00:30:11,030 --> 00:30:15,830 Speaker 2: the lessons from poor Mrs. New Wed's terrible dinner party, 564 00:30:16,350 --> 00:30:20,310 Speaker 2: because in it, one of the one of the characters, Mr. Kindheart, 565 00:30:20,750 --> 00:30:23,050 Speaker 2: leans over and says, cheer up, little girl. It doesn't 566 00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: really matter. And that was nice of the Kindhearts, but 567 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: in the narrative, it actually seals it for Mrs. Newwood 568 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: that it was a complete disaster, so much so that Mr. 569 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:35,380 Speaker 2: Kindheart felt comfortable saying it out loud. 570 00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:39,510 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And this is the 1920s, and she 571 00:30:41,550 --> 00:30:46,890 Speaker 1: closes the book with a bit on understanding that things 572 00:30:46,990 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: change and not to condemn the younger generation's for being 573 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:54,110 Speaker 1: too fun and too loose with stuff. Like this was a, 574 00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:56,220 Speaker 1: I mean, to put that out there in print in 575 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,860 Speaker 1: the 1920s of her saying like, hey, things change. Every 576 00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:02,940 Speaker 1: generation is going to think the one below them is 577 00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:05,620 Speaker 1: not doing it right. And that's not the way forward. 578 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:07,810 Speaker 1: It's just, it's kind of crazy that she had the foresight. 579 00:31:08,030 --> 00:31:10,390 Speaker 1: Like people today don't have that kind of wisdom, I 580 00:31:10,410 --> 00:31:11,750 Speaker 1: feel like. It's true. 581 00:31:12,110 --> 00:31:14,930 Speaker 2: You're right. And she also went the other route too. 582 00:31:15,450 --> 00:31:18,650 Speaker 2: And she basically was speaking to that younger generation and 583 00:31:18,690 --> 00:31:21,310 Speaker 2: basically saying like, yeah, You guys have your own standards. 584 00:31:21,690 --> 00:31:25,630 Speaker 2: You're the future. Here's the stuff that's really important that 585 00:31:25,690 --> 00:31:28,390 Speaker 2: the old guard who you can, you know, feel some 586 00:31:28,430 --> 00:31:30,930 Speaker 2: resentment or roll your eyes about. They had a lot 587 00:31:30,970 --> 00:31:33,370 Speaker 2: of stuff that they really worked out over the years 588 00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:36,230 Speaker 2: that actually is great. Here's that stuff that you need 589 00:31:36,270 --> 00:31:38,470 Speaker 2: to learn. And then here's the other stuff that doesn't 590 00:31:38,530 --> 00:31:41,620 Speaker 2: really matter that much. Or here's some of the silly 591 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,150 Speaker 2: jerks that you're going to encounter along your way. 592 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 1: And maybe be kind to us when you're explaining new technologies. 593 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. For sure. Don't just say move and take over 594 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,110 Speaker 2: the computer. 595 00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:58,650 Speaker 1: So obviously, you know, I said earlier, pretty soon people 596 00:31:58,670 --> 00:32:00,469 Speaker 1: would be saying like she wrote the book on etiquette 597 00:32:00,490 --> 00:32:05,150 Speaker 1: that despite her achievements writing books. And like you said, 598 00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: she had some pretty popular novels. She was the etiquette 599 00:32:09,860 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: lady after that book came out three years after it 600 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,090 Speaker 1: came out. She tried one more novel, a society novel 601 00:32:16,110 --> 00:32:20,500 Speaker 1: called Parade. And in the advertising campaign, they were just like, hey, 602 00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:23,010 Speaker 1: this is Emily Post, the etiquette lady, like buy her 603 00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:25,290 Speaker 1: her new book. And, you know, I think it did well. 604 00:32:25,370 --> 00:32:28,570 Speaker 1: But that was the last novel that she wrote. Like 605 00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:31,050 Speaker 1: it was pretty clear that people wanted to hear one 606 00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:32,170 Speaker 1: thing out of her from then on. 607 00:32:32,890 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. Plus, she'd run out of ideas. It was just 608 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,660 Speaker 2: 300 pages describing a single parade. And the parade wasn't 609 00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:43,870 Speaker 2: even that great. Oh. So let's bring it down a 610 00:32:43,910 --> 00:32:47,230 Speaker 2: second here, Chuck, because tragedy strikes in Emily's life in 611 00:32:47,230 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: 1927 when her beloved son, Bruce, the deuce, died of 612 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: a ruptured appendix. He had a stomach ache leading up 613 00:32:56,420 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: to it. Plenty of warning, but for some reason was 614 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,740 Speaker 2: being stubborn and wouldn't go to the hospital, despite his 615 00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:04,700 Speaker 2: mother pleading with him to him. When he finally went, 616 00:33:04,740 --> 00:33:08,090 Speaker 2: it was too late. He made it just past 32 617 00:33:08,090 --> 00:33:11,469 Speaker 2: years old. So. He died quite young. And, you know, 618 00:33:11,530 --> 00:33:14,510 Speaker 2: he was one of two. And Emily was quite devastated 619 00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:15,030 Speaker 2: by this. 620 00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:20,490 Speaker 1: Yeah, as anybody would be, obviously. So she does what 621 00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:22,210 Speaker 1: a lot of people do and face with this kind 622 00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:25,930 Speaker 1: of loss. She throws herself into work, tries to learn 623 00:33:25,970 --> 00:33:29,050 Speaker 1: some new things like gardening. She became really into gardening. 624 00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:31,450 Speaker 1: And she was like, I'm also, you know, my father 625 00:33:31,490 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: was an architect. I'm going to honor him. She was 626 00:33:34,220 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: obviously way into design and architecture. So She wrote a 627 00:33:38,180 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: textbook on architecture and then continued to just pump out 628 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,290 Speaker 1: new versions of her etiquette book. I think in the 629 00:33:45,330 --> 00:33:50,330 Speaker 1: end there were 10 updates and 90 different printings. But 630 00:33:50,510 --> 00:33:55,530 Speaker 1: she I think the first revision of etiquette appeared after 631 00:33:55,550 --> 00:33:59,100 Speaker 1: I think the same year her son died. And, you know, 632 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,140 Speaker 1: she in each version, she would make more concessions. She 633 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: would kind of roll with the times a little bit 634 00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:07,610 Speaker 1: and see, you know, it wasn't just a. sort of 635 00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:09,989 Speaker 1: useless update. She was she was trying to update it 636 00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:10,810 Speaker 1: and stay current. 637 00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Like she dropped, you know, the the proper way 638 00:34:13,980 --> 00:34:16,299 Speaker 2: to behave in an opium den like that was no 639 00:34:16,340 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 2: longer nearly as relevant. 640 00:34:18,580 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: Exactly. Do whatever you want in there. 641 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:21,959 Speaker 2: Pretty much. 642 00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:24,100 Speaker 1: One of the things she obviously had to roll with 643 00:34:24,180 --> 00:34:28,910 Speaker 1: was like girls and dating and how that changed in 644 00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:32,010 Speaker 1: the first edition. She talks about like chaperoning on dates 645 00:34:32,050 --> 00:34:33,969 Speaker 1: and how like that's a good thing because you can 646 00:34:33,989 --> 00:34:36,109 Speaker 1: be more free as a young woman with a chaperone there. 647 00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:40,029 Speaker 1: But in the very next edition, she was like, OK, 648 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,739 Speaker 1: almost like an acknowledgement. She was like, yeah, you know, 649 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,219 Speaker 1: you can probably go out with a man alone at 650 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,620 Speaker 1: this point. It's fine. Right. And one of the kind 651 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,620 Speaker 1: of final things she did, you know, while she was 652 00:34:50,739 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: not final thing she did. But as far as other 653 00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:56,210 Speaker 1: kinds of writing, she put out a book under a 654 00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:58,509 Speaker 1: pen name. I think she everyone knew her as an 655 00:34:58,550 --> 00:35:01,009 Speaker 1: etiquette lady. So she wanted to see how she would 656 00:35:01,050 --> 00:35:03,710 Speaker 1: do if like her name wasn't all over something. 657 00:35:03,790 --> 00:35:03,930 Speaker 2: So. 658 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,060 Speaker 1: She wrote a series of I think they were published 659 00:35:07,140 --> 00:35:10,060 Speaker 1: in a magazine and then compiled into a book. It 660 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,509 Speaker 1: was a parody with a pen named Muriel called How 661 00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:17,010 Speaker 1: to Behave Though a Debutant. And it was some racy stuff. 662 00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:19,890 Speaker 1: It was very bawdy. It was about a young woman 663 00:35:19,930 --> 00:35:23,589 Speaker 1: who like talked about sex and all this stuff. And 664 00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:27,149 Speaker 1: in the book, she talks about like encouraging the older 665 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: generation to respect the youths and stuff like that and 666 00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:34,860 Speaker 1: to accept change. But yeah. It was a pretty big hit. 667 00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:37,859 Speaker 1: And then I think a few months after she came 668 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:41,690 Speaker 1: out was like, surprise, that's not Muriel. That's me, Emily Post. 669 00:35:42,170 --> 00:35:43,630 Speaker 2: She had sparklers and everything. 670 00:35:43,810 --> 00:35:44,669 Speaker 1: That's right. It's pretty cool. 671 00:35:45,310 --> 00:35:48,310 Speaker 2: Yeah. And everybody was like, oh, well, you're a little 672 00:35:48,350 --> 00:35:49,590 Speaker 2: racier than we thought, Emily. 673 00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:50,339 Speaker 1: Exactly. 674 00:35:51,140 --> 00:35:53,540 Speaker 2: I want to point out, you said that she wrote 675 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,690 Speaker 2: a textbook on architecture. That is mind boggling. That's not 676 00:35:58,750 --> 00:36:01,779 Speaker 2: something the average person walking around could do. You could 677 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,979 Speaker 2: write a book, be like, this is a pretty neat house. 678 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,060 Speaker 2: And here's a little bit about it. She wrote a 679 00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 2: how to be an architect type book called The Personality 680 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,219 Speaker 2: of a House. And I saw that it was basically like, yeah, 681 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,259 Speaker 2: this is a good textbook on architecture. 682 00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:17,500 Speaker 1: That's awesome. 683 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,190 Speaker 2: So, yes, she was pretty accomplished. And she was also 684 00:36:21,650 --> 00:36:24,149 Speaker 2: very much looked up to during her lifetime. She lived 685 00:36:24,190 --> 00:36:29,629 Speaker 2: till 1960. And 10 years before that, Pageant Magazine, which 686 00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:32,870 Speaker 2: was named after the failed parade in her book Parade, 687 00:36:32,890 --> 00:36:37,009 Speaker 2: they had a poll that said that Emily Post is 688 00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:41,339 Speaker 2: second only to Eleanor Roosevelt for the list of most 689 00:36:41,390 --> 00:36:42,910 Speaker 2: powerful women in America. 690 00:36:42,930 --> 00:36:43,970 Speaker 1: It's pretty good. 691 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: An etiquette writer. Yeah. 692 00:36:47,380 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, 10 updates and 90 printing. 693 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,220 Speaker 1: She ended up on radio. She had an advice column called, 694 00:36:55,660 --> 00:36:57,820 Speaker 1: or I guess just a syndicated column, a daily column 695 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: called In Good Taste that was in 200 newspapers. So 696 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,620 Speaker 1: she really was out there, like one of the most 697 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,140 Speaker 1: famous women in the United States in the 30s and 40s, 698 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:08,450 Speaker 1: I think. 699 00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:12,549 Speaker 2: For sure. And then there's the Emily Post Institute, which 700 00:37:12,610 --> 00:37:15,730 Speaker 2: is still around today, and they're making relevant stuff still today. 701 00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:20,210 Speaker 2: I think it's largely carried on by her heirs and descendants. 702 00:37:21,790 --> 00:37:24,430 Speaker 2: And they have stuff on like, You know, when it's 703 00:37:24,530 --> 00:37:27,750 Speaker 2: okay and not okay to whip out your smartphone and 704 00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:29,890 Speaker 2: just look at it in the middle of a crowd 705 00:37:29,930 --> 00:37:33,569 Speaker 2: or in a conversation, like stuff that's relevant. And I 706 00:37:33,610 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: came across something about, you know, how to interact with 707 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 2: somebody who's grieving. And there is a lot of really 708 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,980 Speaker 2: good stuff in there. Like sometimes it's best just not 709 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,700 Speaker 2: to say anything and just be there with them. But 710 00:37:46,739 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: they had a list of stuff not to say. And 711 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,660 Speaker 2: most of it makes sense. A couple of them jumped 712 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,500 Speaker 2: out at me like, who says this? One is everything 713 00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:56,509 Speaker 2: happens for a reason. 714 00:37:57,489 --> 00:37:57,790 Speaker 1: Worst. 715 00:37:58,750 --> 00:38:03,790 Speaker 2: This one got me. If somebody whose child has died, 716 00:38:04,110 --> 00:38:07,529 Speaker 2: don't say you can have other children. Oh, God. Who 717 00:38:08,110 --> 00:38:09,130 Speaker 2: would say that? 718 00:38:09,610 --> 00:38:11,650 Speaker 1: Yeah. That seems old fashioned. 719 00:38:12,489 --> 00:38:14,569 Speaker 2: This is new. This is on their website right now. 720 00:38:14,860 --> 00:38:16,740 Speaker 1: No, no, no. I mean, it seems like something people 721 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,540 Speaker 1: like used to say more. 722 00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:22,629 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. When you had like a dozen kids as farmhands. Sure. 723 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,900 Speaker 2: It is God's will. You're not ready for that yet. 724 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 2: I know just how you feel. And then the kicker. 725 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,700 Speaker 2: Did he have life insurance? Don't say that to somebody 726 00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:37,460 Speaker 2: whose spouse has just died. 727 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,610 Speaker 1: Yeah. And in fact, if someone has any tragedy in 728 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,850 Speaker 1: their life, don't use the word I at all. 729 00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:47,339 Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good one, Chuck. That's a great one. 730 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: Doesn't matter if you've been through the same thing. That 731 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,900 Speaker 1: is not a time for you to one-up or share 732 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: your experience. 733 00:38:54,739 --> 00:38:57,980 Speaker 2: Yeah. They said basically if you want to help, you say, 734 00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 2: I want to blank. 735 00:38:59,860 --> 00:39:00,390 Speaker 1: No, don't say I. 736 00:39:00,390 --> 00:39:01,510 Speaker 2: Whatever specific thing. 737 00:39:01,530 --> 00:39:01,710 Speaker 1: Yeah. 738 00:39:01,969 --> 00:39:03,810 Speaker 2: The person who's standing in front of you. 739 00:39:04,170 --> 00:39:04,690 Speaker 1: Me want to. 740 00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:08,130 Speaker 2: Would like to. And then blank whatever thing you want 741 00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:10,469 Speaker 2: to help with, like buy groceries or cook dinners or 742 00:39:10,510 --> 00:39:13,259 Speaker 2: something like that. I'll get in touch with you soon 743 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 2: to try to figure out the best time for you. 744 00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 2: So it's not like let me know if I can 745 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,779 Speaker 2: do anything because the person's not going to let you 746 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,620 Speaker 2: know if you can do anything, even if they need 747 00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:24,050 Speaker 2: you to. You're saying I'm going to help you with this. 748 00:39:24,430 --> 00:39:26,090 Speaker 2: I'll get in touch to make it as easy as 749 00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:28,509 Speaker 2: possible on you. You don't have to do anything right now. 750 00:39:28,530 --> 00:39:29,950 Speaker 2: I just wanted to put that on your radar. 751 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,100 Speaker 1: Yeah. Bye. 752 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,339 Speaker 2: Nice. Okay. Can I give one more Emily Post quote 753 00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:39,630 Speaker 2: that I think really kind of holds true today, especially 754 00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:41,750 Speaker 2: in this day and age that we've kind of been 755 00:39:41,770 --> 00:39:42,870 Speaker 2: talking about? Yeah. 756 00:39:43,450 --> 00:39:43,669 Speaker 1: Okay. 757 00:39:43,710 --> 00:39:44,390 Speaker 2: Here it is. You ready? 758 00:39:45,350 --> 00:39:45,549 Speaker 1: Yes. 759 00:39:45,830 --> 00:39:49,150 Speaker 2: The best ingredients for likableness. So this is how to 760 00:39:49,170 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 2: be likable. A happy expression of countenance, sure. An unaffected manner, 761 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 2: like you said, not putting on airs. And a sympathetic attitude, 762 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,549 Speaker 2: caring about other people's life, lives. That's it. That's all 763 00:40:02,570 --> 00:40:03,950 Speaker 2: you have to do for people to like you. 764 00:40:04,170 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. 765 00:40:06,310 --> 00:40:09,509 Speaker 2: Okay, well, that's it for Emily Post. And Chuck said 766 00:40:09,550 --> 00:40:12,609 Speaker 2: he loves it, so obviously it's time for Listener Mail. 767 00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: We heard from a few Canadians about a mispronunciation that 768 00:40:17,780 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 1: we're going to correct. Hey, guys, not trying to start 769 00:40:20,910 --> 00:40:22,930 Speaker 1: a Josh fight here, even though I think covering the 770 00:40:22,969 --> 00:40:27,819 Speaker 1: real one would be a hilarious short stuff. Josh is 771 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: salt of the earth. How about that? Whose mind and 772 00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: sense of humor remind me of my own. But what 773 00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:38,339 Speaker 1: I'm afraid is that some Canadians might sue Josh for 774 00:40:38,380 --> 00:40:43,420 Speaker 1: pronouncing Sue St. Marie as salt St. Marie. 775 00:40:44,340 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 2: How do you know the Canadians aren't mispronouncing it? 776 00:40:47,110 --> 00:40:50,430 Speaker 1: Good point. Hey, guys, I know you never look at Wikipedia, 777 00:40:50,469 --> 00:40:52,370 Speaker 1: but here's a link to that article, which begins with 778 00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:56,330 Speaker 1: the pronunciation. But I'm just kidding. No Canadian would sue you, 779 00:40:56,370 --> 00:40:58,489 Speaker 1: of course. It was just a play on words. Love 780 00:40:58,510 --> 00:41:00,450 Speaker 1: the show. That is from Terrence Ward. 781 00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:04,549 Speaker 2: Thank you, Terrence. And you hit peak Canadian when you 782 00:41:04,590 --> 00:41:07,830 Speaker 2: explained that you were joking about Canadians suing us. So 783 00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:09,589 Speaker 2: we love you even more for that now. 784 00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:10,069 Speaker 1: That's right. 785 00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:12,710 Speaker 2: If you want to be like Terrence and show off 786 00:41:12,750 --> 00:41:15,650 Speaker 2: your Canadian-ness, we love that kind of thing. You can 787 00:41:15,690 --> 00:41:18,430 Speaker 2: put it in an email and send it to stuffpodcasts 788 00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: at iheartradio.com. 789 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 790 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,509 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts 791 00:41:30,670 --> 00:41:32,450 Speaker 1: are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.