1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I am really excited 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: about today's conversation. I honestly don't know which direction it's 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: going to go. I read a recent op ed in 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: the Dallas Morning News about the biggest problem facing Christianity, 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: so I was, of course completely intrigued. I've been accused 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: of not being Christian enough. I've been accused of being 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: part of that problem with Christianity. Maybe I'm too Christian. 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. For some people, I don't know what 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: that means. But we have Pastor Jeff Jones with us 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: today and he says that it is a brand problem 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: in the Christian faith, which I am. I'm like, okay, 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: what does that mean? So I feel like there could 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: be parts today that we agree on, and there might 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: be parts that we disagree on, but I'm really anxious 15 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: to get to the conversation, and regardless of what we think, 16 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: I know we are both going to agree that we 17 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: want to ensure that followers of Jesus have a strong 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: spiritual health. And I say that because I don't want 19 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: you to forget your physical health either, because we can't 20 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: put a price on our health, and I like to 21 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: stay energized and keep doing what I love every day 22 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: because I get the maximum servings and nutrition of fruits 23 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: and vegetables. I rely on Balance of Nature's Fruits and 24 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: Veggies and a Capsule to give me the maximum nutrition 25 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: of thirty one real whole fruits and veggies every day. 26 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: Balance of Nature is giving all listeners thirty five percent 27 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: off any first preferred order plus free shipping with promo 28 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: code tutors. 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I 36 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: feel confident about my health because of Balance of Nature. 37 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: Check out all the testimonials from people like you on 38 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: their website to see how Balance of Nature is making 39 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: a difference in their lives. Go now to Balance of 40 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: Nature dot com and get thirty five percent off your 41 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: first preferred order shipped free with promo code tutor. Now 42 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: let's get back to spiritual health. Our guest today Jeff Jones. 43 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: Jeff is a lead pastor of Chase Oaks Church. It's 44 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: a multi site church in Dallas, and the author of 45 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: the book Rebranding Christianity. Thank you so much, Jeff for 46 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: being here. 47 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to the conversation. 48 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: Well, I'm anxious to get to it. So you said 49 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: that this is going to help us have this conversation 50 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: at Thanksgiving. I know that Thanksgiving is right around the corner. 51 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: There's a lot of conversations like this. I actually got 52 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: a message from my mother in law last night saying 53 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: she's excited to talk about my podcast from a few 54 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: days ago over Thanksgiving. So I'm not sure where that's 55 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: going to go. So tell me what we're doing wrong, 56 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: because we've obviously the church has been shrinking. You talk 57 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: in the article about it used to be ninety percent 58 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: of people we're going to church, and now we've reduced 59 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: down to sixty percent. We're losing the younger generation. I mean, 60 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: and I've seen this in my own family, my sister 61 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: in laws in her twenties and their real church goers. 62 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: So what happened. 63 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: Such a such a great question. 64 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 3: So yeah, when you look at if you want to 65 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 3: get depressed, let's say you're having a good day and 66 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: you want to just get a little discouraged, all you 67 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: have to do is google gen Z and Christianity, right, 68 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 3: and you'll see the repulsion of that generation and the 69 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: exodus of that generation, and and a lot of that 70 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 3: is about how Christianity is perceived. And so in the 71 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 3: book Rebrain and Christianity, and what we're talking about is 72 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: that we who are as followers are given the responsibility 73 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: to manage the brand so to speak. I mean, he said, 74 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 3: this is how you'll be known, and if we're not 75 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: known that way, then we have a problem. 76 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: And so you know the. 77 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 3: So what we'd love to see, right is to gain 78 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 3: influence as Christians and culture, because that's good for culture, that's. 79 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: Good for everything. 80 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 3: When it happens, we're losing luence, and there's all kinds 81 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: of reasons for that. But I believe we have to 82 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 3: take responsibility as Christians for how we're perceived and how 83 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: we're managing the brand of Christianity. And we can talk 84 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: about what is the brand of Christianity, right, But but 85 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: I you know the faith of the next generation is 86 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 3: at stake, and that's why I wrote the book. I 87 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 3: really didn't want to write a book. I'm not a 88 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 3: controversial person. I don't enjoy that there's some controversial things 89 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: in there, and I don't expect everybody to agree with 90 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 3: everything that's in there. But I couldn't on my watch 91 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 3: continue to see the next generation leaving Christianity. And I 92 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: just had to ask myself the question is what is 93 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 3: the faith and what is the faith of the next 94 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 3: generation worth? And I think it's worth just about everything. 95 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? Because I know I think that. 96 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean in my church, I would say that there's 97 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: a constant conversation, a pretty regular conversation that they're there 98 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: are truths in the Bible that are tough. There is 99 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: a calling on Christians that is different than the average person, 100 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: and sometimes that can be a hard pill to swallow 101 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: because it means you can't live a life that is 102 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,559 Speaker 1: filled with sin. So how do you reconcile that? Because 103 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: I think some critics of yours would say, well, you're 104 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: offering a watered down version of what the Bible is saying, 105 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: so argue against that. 106 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I certainly don't want us to be less 107 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 3: of Jesus called us to be, but much more if 108 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 3: Jesus called us to be. And in his bottom line, 109 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 3: which is really interesting, of all the things he could 110 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 3: have said, you know, in the this is how you 111 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 3: should be known, this is this is your thing, this 112 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 3: is how we roll. 113 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: And he could have named a lot of things. 114 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 3: You should be known as the most moral people on 115 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: the planet, which that's a good thing to be. You 116 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: should be known as the most right people on the planet, which, well, 117 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 3: we have truth. It's good to be right, way better 118 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 3: than being wrong. You know, there's lots of ways he 119 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 3: we could they could have given us the brand. But 120 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: what he said in the New Command is this is 121 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: how people will know you're my followers if you love 122 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 3: people the way I love you. 123 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: So what do you the way we should be known? 124 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: What do you think Christians are doing that's turning off 125 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: this this young generation. I mean, I know that when 126 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: I was running for office, abortion was a big issue, right, 127 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: that was the biggest issue, and so that was kind 128 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: of the spiritual issue for Christians. It was like, you're 129 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: that was how you were judged. Are you going to 130 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: stand for life? But then this next generation. A lot 131 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: of the young people in that generation felt like that 132 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: was so alienating to them. But on the subject of life, 133 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: I mean, where is their wiggle room on your own 134 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: feeling toward it? 135 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: You know? 136 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: So how do you reconcile that? How do you bring 137 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: people around to an issue like that? 138 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: Sure, so you know, I'm a. 139 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 3: Pastor and I'm a bibliss right, so I certainly believe 140 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 3: in the value of every life. 141 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: Including the unborn. 142 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: So positionally there's no wiggle room, you know, to change 143 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 3: our position on life and on But the New Testament 144 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: talks a whole lot not only about our position and 145 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: how holding on to truth because I believe it's loving 146 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 3: to hold onto truth. I don't believe it's loving to 147 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: act like truth is not truth. And we can talk 148 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 3: more about that, But the Bible talks a whole lot 149 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 3: about how we as Christians posture ourselves in a way 150 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: that it gives every opportunity for people to be pulled 151 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: toward what we believe, as opposed to be repulsed by 152 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 3: what we believe. And so when you say, well, what's 153 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 3: gone wrong? I think, to be honest, and I'm part 154 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: of it, I'm not throwing rocks from the outside. I'm 155 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 3: a pastor of an evangelical church in Dallas, Texas, and 156 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: I think I don't think we've postured ourselves as well 157 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: as we could. And I think there's times that we've 158 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 3: entered into an a polarized world. We've entered into the 159 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: polarization and the vitriol as opposed to rising above that. 160 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: It demonstrating a lot of Jesus. 161 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: So do you think that there are two? Are you 162 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: saying there are too many Christians out there that, like 163 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: the Pharisees, we're wearing the scripture on their sleeve, that 164 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: are like pulling that out and saying, well, according to 165 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: my Bible right here, you're wrong. This is not what 166 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: you should be doing. And so unless you are following 167 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: this exactly, I can't love you. 168 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 2: I think that is part of it, and that's the 169 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: way you were perceived. 170 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: I don't think anybody would want to be perceived that 171 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: way or think they're doing that, but it's the way 172 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 3: it can come across. Right when come across in our 173 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: rightness and our desire to have our position valued and honored, 174 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 3: and we believe it's best when that happens. 175 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: Of course, we do because we believe it's true. 176 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 3: But if we represent that truth in a way that 177 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 3: where we can across as a bully or the least 178 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 3: likely people to listen. You know, the New Testament tells 179 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: us to be humble and gentle to everyone and at 180 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 3: all times, and. 181 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: That's not easy to do. 182 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 3: And so when we violate our posture, when we violate tone, 183 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 3: and the New Testament talks a whole lot about tone 184 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: and a whole lot about posture and how we engage 185 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 3: our culture. When we don't engage in a compelling way 186 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 3: that we actually do truth to disservice, we push people away. 187 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 3: And what we really want to do is create a 188 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 3: sense of pull, not push. Create a curiosity. Like Peter 189 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 3: said to the Christians in Rome, to live in such 190 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: a way that you silence the people who say bad 191 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 3: things about you if I make them a shame they 192 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: ever did because of you the way you live your life. 193 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 194 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon podcast. I mean, in the Bible, I 195 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: think that it's it's to me Jesus is saying you 196 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: are in the world, you are not of the world, 197 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: So you are to be in the world in teaching 198 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: and be living like me in the world and draw 199 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: people to Christ so that when you are no longer 200 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: in this world, you go to Heaven. You save people. Right, 201 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: So he obviously we know that he spoke to people 202 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: in the Bible that the teachers and the rabbis were like, 203 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, this guy is not he's not a 204 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: Jew because you can't do that. You know, that's against 205 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: the rules. Moses told us you can't do that. How 206 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: could he do this if this is against the rules. 207 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: And so there was a lot of I mean, obviously 208 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: they were they crucified him, right, They're like this, we 209 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: got to get rid of this guy. He's a bad guy. 210 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: So how do you how do you showed that he 211 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: was loving? But but there were moments though, where he 212 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: still said you can't do this. You know when he 213 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: when he went and overturned the tables in the temple, 214 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: he was saying, you still there are still rules. There 215 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: are rules. I think that people come in and they say, well, 216 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: he came in and with the New Testament, he threw 217 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: out all the rules, but he didn't throw out the rules. 218 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: So how do you bring people Because I think that 219 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: you talked about culture. Culture has become no rules. You know, 220 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: we don't have we don't have we don't punish crime. 221 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: We don't want people to get in trouble if they 222 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: don't have their assignment at school. So you know, we're 223 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: not going to grade anymore. I mean, we've become a 224 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: society of no rules. But Jesus didn't say there are 225 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: no rules, so how do you? And I think that's 226 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 1: been a bit of the turn off with Christianity is 227 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to follow the rules, you know, I 228 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: don't want to have to go someplace where they tell 229 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: me this is what we expect of you. And even 230 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: if you are loving and you are drawing people in, 231 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: so I guess I would say. You listen to my 232 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: podcast about going to Bible study for the first time, 233 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: and that's how I felt. I'm like, oh, no, these 234 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: people are going to make me change who I am, 235 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: and there's this fear of changing who you are. And 236 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: it was this message of when you become a Christian, 237 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: your life is going to change. The people around you 238 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: are going to change. You're going to choose different people 239 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: and that's scary. But they didn't force me to do that. 240 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: It was just a change that happened to me as 241 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: I became grew deeper and deeper in my faith. But 242 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: how do you get people there? 243 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think your story is a great illustration of 244 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: grace plus truth over time leads to transformation. And so 245 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 3: when Jesus came, you know, John tells us and John 246 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: won that he came full of grace and full of truth. 247 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: And he's really careful about how her words it. He 248 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 3: didn't say he came for grace sixty percentury. 249 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: He was full of both. 250 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 3: He never compromised grace and ever compromise truth because it's 251 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 3: not gracious to compromise truth. And the greatest truth in 252 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 3: the world is grace, so you know, and so he 253 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 3: came full of grace and full of truth. But how 254 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 3: you see Jesus relate is the order is really important. 255 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 3: So he always led with grace and then he pointed 256 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 3: people to truth. And the way I talk about that 257 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 3: is he had a wide welcome to a narrow path, 258 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: and he had a narrow path because it's good and 259 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: wonderful and perfect. Like Paul says, you know in Romans twelve, 260 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 3: it's good. You know, God's truth is not random, it's 261 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: not arbitrary. He made the world. He knows how human 262 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 3: flourishing will work, so it wouldn't be loving for us 263 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: to act like that's not true. Right, we want to 264 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 3: point people to truth. But he had a wide welcome 265 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 3: to a narrow path, and that path gets more narrow 266 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,479 Speaker 3: over time as we open up ourselves to hopefully relationship 267 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 3: with Jesus then begins to change us over time. But 268 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: it's grace polus, truth over time. So if you are 269 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: familiar with the b and I know you are, but 270 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 3: listeners like the woman caught in adultery, and they bring 271 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 3: her right, and he says, grace, I don't condemn you, 272 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 3: but then truth. Right, he says, but go and sin 273 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 3: no more, don't do this anymore. And then he looks 274 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: at his disciples and he said, the son of Man, 275 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 3: talking about himself, did not come to condemn the world, 276 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 3: but to save it. And so he's not condemning her 277 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: but saving her from a life of sin and just saying, hey, 278 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 3: this is you can do so much better. Don't do 279 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 3: this right, but it's grace and welcome. I don't condemn you, 280 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 3: plus truth over time. And therefore you know, if I'm 281 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: going to relate like Jesus, then I'm going to have 282 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 3: the widest welcome. I'm going to be the most loving, welcoming, gracious, kind, gentle, 283 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 3: listening person on the planet. But in relationship over time, right, 284 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 3: I'm going to share truth. I'm going to point to truth. 285 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: And if I'm doing that well, We're told to relate 286 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: to culture, and the early Christians did it. I mean, 287 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: it's a great study of how to win over a 288 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: hostile world, a pre Christian world. We're now a post 289 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 3: Christian world, that we become an irresistible force for good 290 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 3: if we love the way Jesus loved, demonstrate grace as 291 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: he demonstrated it. 292 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 2: It's not that we'll win over everybody. 293 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: We won't, but we give people the best opportunity to 294 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: be to again create poll to create curiosity and pull 295 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 3: about what we have to say, people wanting more or 296 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 3: not less. 297 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that part of our issue today is 298 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: that the time part of it? Because I feel like 299 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: people are very impatient, and so I see not only 300 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: in the church, but I see even folks who are 301 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: online talking about scripture and talking about Christianity. It's like 302 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: the time is now and there is not that I mean, 303 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: really that's grace, right. You give people time to come 304 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: to it, and sin doesn't go away overnight. And really, 305 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: let's face it, I mean sin travels with us. We 306 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: are not perfect people. There is no one that walks 307 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: into church that is Jesus. There is no one you 308 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: can walk in his path. But we are not perfect, 309 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: and so we cannot say, well, I can't go to 310 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: that church because it's perfect. But as a pastor or 311 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: a congregant, you can't say you can't come to our 312 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: church because you are not where I am, because none 313 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: of us are where Jesus is. And I think that's 314 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: been kind of the place where a lot of Christians 315 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: get hung up like we are. It's hard for us 316 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: to see if somebody is in some sort of a 317 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: sinful situation, and you know it, let's face it, where 318 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: everybody of every one of us is walking in they're 319 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: sick and needing healing, right, But we are likely to 320 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: look at someone else and go but they are more sick, 321 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: They're sicker than me. So I'm not sure this is 322 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: the place. Why is it that we do that great question? 323 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: And religious people, there's just something about us that just 324 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: do that. It's not the way of Jesus. But it's 325 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: the way of religion, right. 326 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 3: And you talked about Jesus, you know, you know, being 327 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 3: very willing to enter into conflict over truth. But that 328 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: was especially with the religious people, like the Pharisees, you know, 329 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 3: who he was hardest on. And you know, so he 330 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 3: you know, they were worried. They were all concerned about 331 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: Jesus welcoming the people, being a friend of sinners and 332 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 3: tax collectors, and they assumed that meant he was a 333 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 3: glutton and a drunkard because they confused welcome with agreement, 334 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 3: and Jesus, you know, Jesus wasn't a drunkard. 335 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: He wasn't. 336 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: That happened at those parties that he went to, but 337 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 3: he wasn't involved in that. And they're upset because he 338 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 3: enters into the home of a tax collector who became 339 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 3: one of the disciples, Matthew, and he looks at him 340 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 3: and he says, hey, the Son of Man didn't come 341 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 3: for the healthy, but the sick, and meaning the church 342 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 3: as a hospital for sinners to get better, you know, 343 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 3: not a place for perfect people to shove out everybody 344 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 3: who's not perfect. Right, And so the Pharisees, of course 345 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 3: were sinners too, and it's amazing how impatient we are 346 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 3: with people who sin differently than we do, y know, And. 347 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: That I think is I think that's been an issue 348 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: even when I've seen some of these influencers who become 349 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: voices for the Christian Church, and it's a strange situation 350 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: because they get this very big pulpit to speak from 351 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: right and they have and people believe that they are 352 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: the voice of the church. Whether that is the majority, 353 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,719 Speaker 1: there are people out there that believe that that is 354 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: the voice of the church, and they are putting out 355 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: this is how you must live. And even in the 356 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: political world, we've seen this, and this has been something 357 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: that I have really struggled with because I've seen influencers 358 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: in the political world who are Christian influencers and they've said, 359 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: God calls you to marry young, find a Christian husband 360 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: who will lead the household, stay home with your kids. 361 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: You are the wife who should take care of And 362 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: I know in no case am I saying the husband 363 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: should not be the head of the household. I believe 364 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: in that family unit. I think that the way it 365 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: is presented to young women who maybe are not in 366 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: that situation or not finding those men or are not 367 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: having that or have gotten married and that is not 368 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: their story. Feel very much like I am not worthy 369 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: of being with these people, or I don't want to. 370 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to turn my back on this because of 371 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 1: the massive guilt. There's so many people have a massive 372 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: amount of guilt walking into a church and being told 373 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: if you are a sinner, God is mad at you, 374 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: or that's what they hear. 375 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, absolutely, And the church should be the place 376 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 3: that has the widest welcome on the planet that anybody knows, 377 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 3: no matter who they are. 378 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: I can go and I'll be loved there, and I'll. 379 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 3: Be welcome there, and I'll be esteemed there no matter what, 380 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 3: no matter what my struggle, no matter what you know. 381 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: And and that's the way Jesus related, right, he had 382 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 3: the widest and welcomes and to a narrow path. I mean, 383 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: he pointed people to an aerowpath over time, but it 384 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 3: starts with a wide welcome. And in Christianity, you know, 385 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 3: I'm involved in a in order when an organization that 386 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 3: gathers together Christians who are LGBT, Christians who have a 387 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: sexual orientation and yet that that is same sex attracted 388 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 3: and yet hold on to a what I would believe 389 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: is a Biblical view of sexuality and marriage, where sex 390 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: is in the context marriage between a man and a woman. 391 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 3: I believe that's what Jesus affirmed, So they affirm that right. 392 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: And but what most of them would say is that 393 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: about the last place they can go to grow in 394 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 3: their faith, they believe is a church, because they know 395 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 3: they'll be judged, they'll be rejected, they won't have time 396 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 3: to work out their you know what that means for 397 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: them and what it would mean to follow Jesus and 398 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 3: what it would mean to submit that area of life 399 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: to him. 400 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 2: And it's one of. 401 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 3: The things we're just trying to do is help churches 402 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 3: create an environment where anybody can come and know that 403 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: they can be accepted into a relationship with Jesus that 404 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: will transform our lives and to say, don't you know, 405 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 3: come in with your hands up, surrender, you know, to whatever. 406 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: God would want for you, whatever God would say to you. 407 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 3: But that does take, as we've been talking about, it 408 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: takes grace, and it takes time in order to conform 409 00:21:59,320 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 3: the truth. 410 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: Take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the 411 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: Tutor Dixon Podcast. So there are people who would say, 412 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: that's not what God wants you to do, because He's 413 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: clearly spelled out that this is sin. Now I will 414 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: say again, everyone who walks through that door is sinful. 415 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: When I was running for office, I was against the 416 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: death penalty, and a lot of people were horrified by 417 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: that because they wanted me to be you know, everybody 418 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: has an opinion on what you should be. You should 419 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: be for the death penalty, and I just I couldn't. 420 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: I just couldn't. And it was like, I was struggling 421 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: with this because I'm like, that is not who I am. 422 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: And I sat with a woman who is a great 423 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: Christian mentor, and she said to me, if you were 424 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: for that, why are you the one that could potentially 425 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: take away their salvation that they may find while they're waiting, 426 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: while they're going through their prison term. You know, why 427 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: is it your place to take away their opportunity to 428 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 1: find Christ? And I think that's a tough thing for 429 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: Christians because we feel like we have to have justice 430 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: and we have to serve God well, and to serve 431 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: God well, we have to take certain pieces of the 432 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: Bible and say we have to live by it this way. 433 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: But I mean, there is this struggle inside of me 434 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: that says, but if I say, your sin is greater 435 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: than my sin and therefore you can't seek Christ, Am 436 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: I robbing that person of salvation and their chance to 437 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: live some way that Christ is wanting them to live. 438 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 3: I love your heart beating, and it's consistent, you know, 439 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 3: And I think and I know you know, there's room 440 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 3: for disagreement about death penalty or not death penalty for Christians, 441 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 3: and I understand I could argue both ways, right, but 442 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 3: as certainly as we're representing something as beautiful as the 443 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 3: preciousness of life for the unborn, for the immigrant, for 444 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 3: the poor, as well as for the criminal, that's really consistent, right, because. 445 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: We're valuing life. 446 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 3: And which which I think is is compelling even to 447 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 3: people outside of outside of Christianity, Like I remember, you know, 448 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 3: we're talking about how do we represent Jesus and hold 449 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 3: on to truth? Then, and one incredible model to me 450 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 3: this was back into Bill Clinton era and Bill Clinton 451 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 3: was giving an award to Mother Teresa. I don't remember 452 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 3: what it was. It was a long time ago, is 453 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 3: in the nineties. 454 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: And it doesn't seem that long ago, but it was that's. 455 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: True, I know. And yeah, so many things have changed, right, 456 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 3: even you know, Bill Clinton doesn't nearly as bad as it. 457 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's like all of a sudden, you know, 458 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: wents ahole other thing. Right, it's like cut, we thought. 459 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 3: That was bad, but when you you know, so he's 460 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 3: given this a to Mother Teresa, right, And so she 461 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: is there. They honor her, and they give her the 462 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 3: microphone and she starts talking about life and the preciousness 463 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 3: of life, including the unborn, and she just goes there 464 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: and just keeps going there. And you could see the 465 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 3: tension in the room, you know, of the people behind her, 466 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 3: and you've been in those you know, press and jails 467 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 3: right where you've got to smile and the person speaking. 468 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: Because who's going to stop Mother Teresa? 469 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 3: Right? 470 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: Who's gonna stop Mother Teresa? Right? 471 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: But what a great like, what a great model of 472 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 3: influence of living the way of Jesus in such a 473 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 3: way that you engender so much respect that, like you said, 474 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 3: who's gonna who's gonna take. 475 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: The microphone away from her? 476 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 3: And because she's been consistent for so long and really known, 477 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 3: I would say, like the way Jesus said, we know, 478 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 3: love people all the way I've loved you. That's the 479 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 3: way people know your my disciples. And so the first 480 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 3: thing people should think of when they think of Christian 481 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 3: is that is those are the most loving, wonderful, gracious people, 482 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 3: most forgiving people, most generous people on the planet. So 483 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 3: that if somebody finds out, you know, that somebody you 484 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 3: know moves in next door that's a Christian, they're like, I. 485 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: Just got so lucky Christian moodent. 486 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 3: They believe the weird stuff, but wow, they're just amazing people. 487 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: You know. That's the way we should be known, and 488 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 2: that's what. 489 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: Creates the thirst for actually what we believe, you know, 490 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 3: and what we have to say, Well. 491 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: How do you describe this to kids? Though? I mean, 492 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: and I'm serious, because I think that we have children 493 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: growing up in schools in society that says anything goes 494 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: and shun organized religion of any kind, and then we 495 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: have kids like my kids are growing up in a 496 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: Christian school and they'll oftentimes say, but Mom, isn't that wrong? 497 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: And it's been a big conversation in our house where 498 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: I think there is a serious struggle we had. You know, 499 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: we have several friends that are a part of the 500 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: LGBTQ community, and the girls ask all the time, but 501 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: they won't go to heaven, and I'm like, you know what, 502 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: I don't know how that works. To be honest with you, 503 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what their relationship with God is. I 504 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: make I'm a sinner. I hope that that doesn't say 505 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: that I can't go to heaven. I don't know how 506 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: to have that conversation because I'm like, look, I want 507 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: to welcome them into our lives, and that's not necessarily 508 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: what they are always taught in school. And it's a 509 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: tough conversation with young people because certainly I never want 510 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: my kids to be like, oh we mom, we can't 511 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: talk to so and so because we learned in school. 512 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: And I just say, I don't. I don't think that 513 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: Jesus would say that, But then I know that there 514 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: will be Christians out there that will say no. Jesus 515 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: would say, if you're going to continue living that way, 516 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: then you cannot be a part of my life. And 517 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I know people who refuse to go to 518 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: ceremonies for LGBTQ people, and I don't know how to 519 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: have that conversation. So how do you have that conversation. 520 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,479 Speaker 2: Yeah again, I think Jesus is such a great model. 521 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 3: You know, so in in Jesus's day, which is weird 522 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 3: for us, right, but the worst sinners were tax collectors 523 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 3: because they were. 524 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: I think we feel the same. 525 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: We just got a bunch more of them, right but 526 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: you know, right, so but still, you know, you think, okay. 527 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 3: Like like one of our campus pastors used to be 528 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: an higher S agent, you know, so. 529 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: So they can be reformed. 530 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 3: I get it, I guess, but you know, so we don't, 531 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 3: you know, whatever we think about them. You know, they're 532 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 3: not anybody's favorite, you know people, right, but you but 533 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 3: it's kind of strange, right to two thousand years later, 534 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 3: or to going two thousand years ago thinking okay, that 535 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: was considered like the worst of the worst, but it was, 536 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: and then other centers, so friend of tax collectors and centers. 537 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: So every generation has their worst list, you know, and 538 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 3: it's and it seems arbitrary going from generation to generation 539 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: to generation because it changes over time. 540 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 2: And so in our era it's it's really. 541 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 3: The LGBT community, right, the churches really struggle with and 542 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 3: that we struggle to welcome. I mean, materialistic people, no 543 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 3: problems sexual. 544 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: People fancy tesla my first. 545 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: That's right, hetero sexual people living together outside of the aware, 546 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 3: that's true, right, It's it's that, it's that community. So 547 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 3: so how did Jesus relate to people in that category? 548 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: And and he wasn't end of centers and tax collectors. 549 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 3: And and I think he was called that by his enemies, 550 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: but I think he wore that as a badge of honor. 551 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 3: And so transformation happens in the context of acceptance and relationship, 552 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 3: not in the context of distancing myself and lobbying grenades. Right, 553 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 3: that's really not a way to influence anybody. But as 554 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 3: we influence people, it happens in proximity. Right, We're to 555 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 3: be salt in light, Jesus said, So salt. The only 556 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 3: way salt works is if it has proximity to the meat, 557 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 3: the steak or whatever it's touching, right, and so light 558 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 3: you don't hide it, you know, you you put it 559 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 3: in a prominent place, right, so you you don't move 560 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: away from the people that you're wanting to influence. You 561 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 3: move towards the people that you're wanting to influence. And 562 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 3: with the relationship and with grace, which then gives the 563 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 3: opportunity to create pull toward truth and a better way. 564 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: But if you lead with I'm right and you're wrong, 565 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 3: let me tell you why. Well, no, none of us 566 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 3: are gonna that's not going to pull us towards nobody's 567 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 3: going to be pulled toward that, right. 568 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: Now, that's true in the political world as well. 569 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 3: Well yeah, yeah, right, So you you relate in a 570 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 3: way I mean, Paul said it, he said, you know, 571 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 3: relate in our world in a way that makes the 572 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 3: teaching of God of Jesus our Savior attractive in every way. 573 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 3: Meaning we're to that. The way we influence culture is 574 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: in a it is not so much through a lens 575 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 3: of warfare as it is through even though there's spiritual 576 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 3: warfare going on, but not so much, but not so 577 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 3: much through a lens of warfare with people not fighting them, 578 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 3: but actually an influence more of a missionary a missionary perspective, 579 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 3: where we uh, it's not so much seeing culture as 580 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 3: a battlefield but as a mission field. And even people 581 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 3: who disagree with us are not the enemy. 582 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: They think it's a hard I think it's a hard 583 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: balance because Jesus, while he is loving and draws people in, 584 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: God still disciplines. He is the father of discipline and 585 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: learning through discipline, And so how do you balance bringing 586 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: people in? But also there are hard truths in the 587 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: Bible and those and like you said, you don't want 588 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: to hide those truths. You have that wide mouth where 589 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: people can come in, and then if they choose to leave. 590 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: I think a lot of times just opening that door 591 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: that seed doesn't necessarily mean they're gone forever. And I 592 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: think that's hard. Like I said, that timing part and 593 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: the grace is hard for Christians because they're like, join 594 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: and be a part of this, and you know, forget 595 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: about all of the sin, even though they likely have 596 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: not done that, Like I said, But but how do 597 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: you Some people say, if you are too much like, okay, 598 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: we're going to be an inclusive church, then are you 599 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,959 Speaker 1: really able to discipline and show what what God's discipline is. 600 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, I think on the welcome side 601 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 3: you include everybody. 602 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: You know, Jesus said, and Matthew. 603 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: Eleven, come all you were weary and heavy late, and 604 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 3: I'll give you rest. But then he also so it's come. 605 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 3: I mean, the only the only command is come, which 606 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 3: is a low bar. It's just and but then he says, 607 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 3: for my yoka is easy and my burden is light. 608 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 3: So he is saying, walk with me into a whole 609 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 3: new life, and he'll do the heavy lifting of transformation. 610 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 3: That's why it's easy for us, light for us, not 611 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 3: burdensome dust. And so it's hey, come as you are 612 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 3: and walk with me into a whole new life. And 613 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 3: so it's it's a relationship with g Us over time 614 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 3: that changes people. 615 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the. 616 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 3: Problems as Christians when we try to want to we 617 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: want to be influential and want truth to win the 618 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 3: day in culture, because culture is better when that happens. 619 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 2: But like Paul said, we have to be careful not 620 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: to judge those outside the church. As he said in 621 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 2: Second Corinthians, we should judge ourselves because we've signed up 622 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,959 Speaker 2: like we're Christians. We've signed up for this right. People 623 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 2: outside haven't. 624 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 3: And theologically they don't have the Holy Spirit to help 625 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 3: them perform with truth anyway or to begin to live 626 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: by our standards. And so it's it's not so much 627 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 3: that I want people to be moral, even though yeah, 628 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,479 Speaker 3: they're moral, is better than immoral. But what I really 629 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 3: want is internal transformation that only happens in relationship with Jesus, 630 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 3: at least in my theology. 631 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I think that that's where so what I'm 632 00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: hearing and I'm really, honestly, I really am trying to 633 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: figure out what what are we as a church doing 634 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,439 Speaker 1: that is driving people away? And I think what I'm 635 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: hearing from you is what I experienced is someone should 636 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 1: call you to be a part of it, but they 637 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: are not going to transform you. And too often as Christians, 638 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: we think that we're Jesus. We're going to transform you. 639 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: We're going to force you into this mold. We can 640 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: make you like the way Jesus wants you to be. 641 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: It is not that we are to give grace. We 642 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: are to introduce, to give grace and let Jesus transform 643 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: and that can take decades. 644 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 3: Yes, And that's grace versus judgment, you know. And so 645 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 3: you know, I think if when you say, what what's 646 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 3: gone wrong? If we're supposed to be known as the 647 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 3: most loving people on the planet, you know, when you 648 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 3: look at you know, we don't have to wonder how 649 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 3: people outside of Christianity be Christians because there's so much 650 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 3: polling data, you know, and you can guess any you 651 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 3: can guess the words that people use, you know, outside 652 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 3: of Christianity, how do you view a Christian? 653 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 2: How would you describe a Christian? And it's you can imagine. 654 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 3: Right, it's hateful, bigoted, angry, mean spirited, judgmental, you know, hypocritical, 655 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 3: all that stuff really the opposite of the brand, which 656 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 3: is love, which is a huge problem. 657 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 2: Right. 658 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 3: And when you look at you know, we talked about 659 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 3: the emerging generations. Gallup did a study in two thousand 660 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 3: and one where they ask people in that generation young adults. 661 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 3: So people in that young adult age group in two 662 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 3: thousand and one, how many had DoD they have a 663 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 3: positive view of Christianity or a negative view, meaning did 664 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 3: they see Christianity is a positive force forget in the 665 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: world or a negative force forget in the world. 666 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: And in two. 667 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 3: Thousand and one, sixty a little over sixty percent of 668 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 3: people in that generation, including many he didn't claim to 669 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 3: be a Christian, still said positive force forget in the world. 670 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 3: And twenty one, twenty years later, they did the same study, 671 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 3: different people, right, but same age group. So now that 672 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 3: age group now twenty years later, gen Z and thirty 673 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 3: seven percent believed said Christianity was a positive force for good, 674 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 3: which meant sixty three percent negative, which by the way, 675 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 3: is also the same it's the same number thirty six 676 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 3: percent who claim to be Christians. So essentially gen Zers 677 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 3: who claim to be Christians were positive about Christianity. Virtually 678 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 3: every other person that in that generation believed we're not 679 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 3: just neutral but like a negative force for good in 680 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 3: the world. We were making our world worse. And we've 681 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 3: got to ask us ourselves the question, how did that happen? 682 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,240 Speaker 3: And I know we don't get any help for media, 683 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 3: we don't get any help from Hollywood, we don't get 684 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 3: any help from you know, lots of news outlets and 685 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff. 686 00:37:58,520 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 2: I understand that. 687 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: But maybe we need to be present in those places. 688 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: And that's where I think that God has. You know, 689 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: we ask what went wrong? But nothing's going wrong because 690 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: this is God's plan, and God is saying, Okay, he's 691 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: watching us and he's guiding us, but he's asking us 692 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: to listen. And as we see our world hurting, and 693 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: when we see pain, you see pain, it's getting closer 694 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 1: to you. Every day. You see crime, you see addiction, 695 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: you see all of these things that are coming closer 696 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: to you every day. And I really believe that in 697 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: this world where Roe v. Wade was overturned and all 698 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: of a sudden it became abortion on demand, and Christians went, oh, 699 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: how could that happen? I'm like, God didn't let this 700 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: happen without saying to you, this is not a legal issue. 701 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: This is a heart issue. We let the hearts go. 702 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: Be present. And that's what I've tried to talk to people. 703 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: And I don't know that diet. I mean, I don't 704 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: know if that's right, but I sense that God has 705 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: said to us, you haven't done the right work, so 706 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: now you suffer more pain and people will suffer more 707 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: pain until you get it right. But listen to what 708 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: he wants. So I don't know. I mean, that's how 709 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: I kind of interpret it. And that's what I hope 710 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: that we start to look at these situations and say 711 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: we're not present. We've walked away from that and we're 712 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: and as Christians, I think even we have been like, oh, 713 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: that's not for us, so we're going to look the 714 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: other way. But if you're not present there, like you 715 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: are in the world, not of the world, be in 716 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: the world, be present, be a light. 717 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 3: I love that because essentially, I think one of the 718 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 3: big thing that's happened, and we say, what's happened? 719 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 2: In Christianity? 720 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 3: We're supposed to be animated by love, which moves, which 721 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 3: does move toward people. It is, it is in there, right. 722 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 3: The only way to be salted light is to be present. 723 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 3: But if Christians are animated by fear, which I think 724 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 3: right now we are, then what happens in fear. We'll 725 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 3: go back to high school biology. Right, it's either fight 726 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 3: or flight. Yeah, So you either flee into your own 727 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 3: little Christian bubble, and which just contributes to the polarization 728 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 3: we have in our culture right where you're in your 729 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 3: little bubble and you talk about people outside your bubble, 730 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 3: but you're not talking to them, which skews your perspective 731 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 3: of them. And it's not the way of Jesus. They've 732 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 3: created us versus them. It just contributes to the us 733 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 3: versus them thing that's happening in culture. One of the 734 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 3: greatest ways we could stick out as Christians is not 735 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 3: do that and not creating us versus them the world, 736 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 3: but to move towards you know, and get out of 737 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 3: our bubble and move right so but in fear, that's 738 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 3: what happened. Or and it's either and or you choose fight. 739 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 3: So you go into fight mode because what we believe 740 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 3: we believe to be true. 741 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 2: I get that. 742 00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 3: But you but if you exhibit truth through fight and 743 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 3: you come at people push, people are repelled just like 744 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 3: we would be repelled. 745 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 2: Right. It never works to do that. 746 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: And so what you solved the problem. It's not fight 747 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: or flight. It's light there you go. I love it. 748 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh. 749 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 3: And the Bible says that love casts out all fear. 750 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 3: So if you you know, if you're if you're relating 751 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 3: to culture and love not fear, then you won't fight 752 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 3: or flight. It cast out fear. You'll you know, you'll 753 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 3: move toward culture. And I think Christians have been you know, 754 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 3: I mean, Paul told Timothy, God has not given us 755 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 3: a spirit of fear and timidity, but of love and 756 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 3: power and a sound mind. Right, So we have truth, 757 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 3: we have God, we have the Holy Spirit right there, 758 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 3: and we can in a compelling way and all that 759 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 3: we don't have to play defense. We can move toward people. 760 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 3: We could be an environment. That's why I love the 761 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 3: fact that they're fellow christ follows like you who are 762 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 3: willing to be involved in politics. I don't want to 763 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 3: see the church politicize. That's another culture. That's another conversation. 764 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 3: But I do want to see Christians engaging politics. But 765 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 3: I do want to see Christians engage in politics to 766 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,879 Speaker 3: be present, to be sultan like there, to represent Jesus there. 767 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 3: We need way more of that, and there's there's just 768 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 3: far too little of it. And so you know, if 769 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 3: you if you relate to culture out of fight or fight, 770 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 3: no wonder, we're not seen as loving because well we're 771 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 3: actually not being loving, right. 772 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I could honestly talk to you for hours. 773 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm I'm hoping you'll come back some time because this 774 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: has been a really fascinating conversation for me, and it 775 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: was really I really did go into this and think 776 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 1: I don't know where this is going to go. And 777 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: before I came in here, I was like, Okay, God, 778 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: you just speak through me, because I don't know how 779 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: to have this conversation. But I learned a lot and 780 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: I hope that the people listening got a lot out 781 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 1: of it. I think they. I think they will because 782 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to think about this for a long time tonight. 783 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: So Jeff Jones, Pastor Jones, thank you so much for 784 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 1: being here. Thank you, and oh, tell people where they 785 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: can find your book, because you have a book, right. 786 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 2: I do, Rebrain and Christianity. 787 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 1: Now. 788 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 3: You can find it on Amazon and some bookstores, but 789 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 3: you can also learn more. There's a podcast as well, 790 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 3: if you've got to rebrain in Christianity dot org. 791 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: Okay, so you can listen more. Pastor Jones, thank you 792 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: so much, Thank you, and thank you all for joining 793 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: me for the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, 794 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: go to Tutor dixonpodcast dot com. You can subscribe right there, 795 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: or check out the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get 796 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Join us next time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. 797 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: Have a blessing.