Speaker 1: From the heart of where innovation, money and power collive
Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley and beyond. This is Bloomberg Technology with
Speaker 1: Emily j I'm Emily checking San Francisco and this is
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Technology. Coming up in the next hour. Twitter's tepid
Speaker 1: results another blow to the company that's already fighting a
Speaker 1: high profile legal battle with Elon Musk. We will talk
Speaker 1: about what it tells us about the state of social media,
Speaker 1: plus more and more tech companies hitting the brakes on hiring.
Speaker 1: What does it signal about the future of the economy
Speaker 1: and what does Silicon Valley look like when the dust
Speaker 1: has settled. Polit School and finding the soulmate comes with
Speaker 1: a cost, and inflation isn't helping. Singles are getting creative
Speaker 1: as the dating economy suffers from picker shock. We'll dig
Speaker 1: into trends in dating. All that in a moment, But
Speaker 1: first Snap then Twitter dragging tech markets down, disappointing results
Speaker 1: only fueling fears of a recession. I want to zoom
Speaker 1: out and talk about what all these tech results so
Speaker 1: far have told us about the state of the economy.
Speaker 1: For that, I want to bring in wed wish Managing
Speaker 1: director Dan Eyes and economy CEO David Kirkpatrick. Look, let's
Speaker 1: let's let's start with Twitter because we saw you know,
Speaker 1: miss miss on the top line, uh users inline? Dan,
Speaker 1: is Twitter just treading water right now? I think Twitter
Speaker 1: is basically training right now. Is odds are almost an
Speaker 1: arbitrage on what's gonna happen in Delaware in terms of
Speaker 1: eating with the must deal in terms of how that
Speaker 1: plays out for me the a settlement or he ultimately
Speaker 1: needs to buy Twitter based on Delaware court. But I
Speaker 1: will tell you those metrics firmer than fear, and I
Speaker 1: think it should, especially when you compare it as Ed
Speaker 1: talked about the Snare app just absolute disaster, blaming everything
Speaker 1: for the wind. I mean, Twitter holding it a bit
Speaker 1: better than expected, but it is training right now on
Speaker 1: what's happening in terms of October and the Delaware court case.
Speaker 1: And remember it was Snap, you know, coming out and
Speaker 1: revising its forecast earlier this year that sort of kick
Speaker 1: started this market meltdown. David, what's your take on what
Speaker 1: we're seeing from Snap? Even Evan Spiegel himself saying he's
Speaker 1: not happy with these results. Well, I think in the
Speaker 1: digital advertising business, some companies are a lot better position
Speaker 1: than others, and Snap is not at the center of
Speaker 1: the industry. I think it is at risk, and it
Speaker 1: showed that it's at risk of unusually strong reaction when
Speaker 1: advertisers start to pull back. I don't think that's the
Speaker 1: case for some of the bigger companies. UM. It is
Speaker 1: interesting to me when you look at what's happening with Twitter.
Speaker 1: Um it's a company that probably has gained a lot
Speaker 1: from the sheer publicity around the must efforts, and they
Speaker 1: are gaining users. So I agree with that it's not
Speaker 1: nearly as bad as we might have expected. So here's
Speaker 1: the question, Dan, how much is what's happening with Snap
Speaker 1: and what we just saw with Twitter signal about the
Speaker 1: state of the online ad business? What does this actually
Speaker 1: mean for Meta or Alphabet for example, Dan, And there's
Speaker 1: obviously a big drum roll into next week I think
Speaker 1: one most pivotal week or earnings for tech and then
Speaker 1: by five six years. But look, Snap, even a good
Speaker 1: ecomming Snap has had a lot of difficulty getting their
Speaker 1: arms around their business continuum as viewer as a paper
Speaker 1: airplane and a hurricane. I still believe when it comes
Speaker 1: to YouTube in terms of Google and what we're gonna
Speaker 1: see even pinterest in others. I think digital ad swelling,
Speaker 1: but I think media holding up a bit better than feared.
Speaker 1: But that's why next year to Miki, especially when it
Speaker 1: comes to meta streets baking in a lot of bad news.
Speaker 1: But I just continue to not use snap as the
Speaker 1: best barometer who it's happened the industry. That said, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of talk now about whether the social media
Speaker 1: business model is sputtering, is on the verge of failing.
Speaker 1: I mean, David, we're seeing Facebook, you know, pivot entirely
Speaker 1: to a whole new future with meta, in part because
Speaker 1: I'm sure because of some of the weaknesses that they
Speaker 1: see internally. I mean, do you think this is some
Speaker 1: sort of what we've seen so far, whether it's just
Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks or the last you know,
Speaker 1: couple of quarters, a sort of indictment on the business
Speaker 1: model of social media. No, I don't. In fact, I
Speaker 1: think the pivot to meta in the metaverse at what
Speaker 1: used to be called Facebook really has a lot of
Speaker 1: other causes, and a lot of them have to do
Speaker 1: with reputational management. Um, I don't think that social media
Speaker 1: industry is at risk of failing in any fundamental way.
Speaker 1: I think the evolution is happening faster than some would
Speaker 1: have expected, uh, particularly with TikTok's extraordinary billion global user arise. Um.
Speaker 1: The the incumbents aren't really prepared. They aren't a sleet
Speaker 1: footed now, especially that as they're so big, particularly in
Speaker 1: the case of Facebook, uh and Google to a lesser extent.
Speaker 1: I think Google is the best position company of all
Speaker 1: of these film myself. So you think Google has the
Speaker 1: biggest upside in the tech sector, Why, Well, it's it's
Speaker 1: not that it has. It's just that it's embeddedness in
Speaker 1: the global economy, not the tech economy, just in the
Speaker 1: global economy is so thorough, so immovable. This is not
Speaker 1: true for the businesses of of meta Facebook, except for
Speaker 1: possibly WhatsApp, which is a business that really does have
Speaker 1: a almost impregnable global position. Um. But the Google services,
Speaker 1: many of them are just inconceivable for people to live without.
Speaker 1: And I think that is a huge defense mechanism for them.
Speaker 1: They've put themselves in a fantastic position over decade. It's
Speaker 1: a building incredibly well designed and useful businesses. Dan, what
Speaker 1: tech company do you think has the biggest upside right now? Well, First,
Speaker 1: I agree with David on on the Google side going
Speaker 1: into next week, But to me, it's that company and
Speaker 1: Cooper Tina, it's Apple because I think that's one it's
Speaker 1: an underestimated demand cycle still even with a swirling macro
Speaker 1: in terms of iPhone fourteen, you got a quarter of
Speaker 1: the base by two not upgrade three and a half years.
Speaker 1: That services business rocket Gibralton. I think that's going to
Speaker 1: come through next week, and I think some of the
Speaker 1: parts the Apples still a SOAKA is the two in
Speaker 1: front of it. That continues to be our top technique.
Speaker 1: But Dan, even Apple is cutting back on hiring, cutting
Speaker 1: back on costs, cutting back on spending for various divisions.
Speaker 1: What does that tell you? Look, I think that they're
Speaker 1: being proven. You're seen that across the valley from Microsoft
Speaker 1: to Amazon to other But but this is more prudence
Speaker 1: rather than what I sort of view is just a
Speaker 1: massive deceleration to tap into business. And I think there's
Speaker 1: also other areas that they're looking to spend on, and
Speaker 1: it comes down to what's baked into the stocks. I
Speaker 1: think that's a theme that we saw a play out
Speaker 1: with Netflix with Tesla, and I think next week I view,
Speaker 1: this is sort of better than fear in terms of
Speaker 1: how it's going to play on Apple. I continue putting
Speaker 1: Astrick around that front and center, along with Microsoft being
Speaker 1: our court cloud name. David, would you say you're expecting
Speaker 1: better than feared results next week? I think it's hard
Speaker 1: to predict what's going to happen next week. But one
Speaker 1: thing that I would say it was on a Bloomberg
Speaker 1: article this week that I read that recession is almost
Speaker 1: inevitable if it hasn't started already. So any of these
Speaker 1: companies that were not preparing themselves by battman down the
Speaker 1: hatches would be pretty poorly managed. I do agree. Apple
Speaker 1: has just done another job, sort of like Google in
Speaker 1: its own unique way of building businesses that just can't
Speaker 1: be stopped. So I doubt if they would be slowed
Speaker 1: much by even the beginnings of a recession. All Right, David,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be sticking with us. We're actually gonna be
Speaker 1: digging into this big hiring slow down. A bit later
Speaker 1: in the show, David Kirkpatrick, thank you, and Dan ives
Speaker 1: always good to have you here. Happy Friday. All right,
Speaker 1: coming up, one tech company after another slowing or stopping
Speaker 1: hiring is it a sign of ominous economics. Guys ahead
Speaker 1: talk about that and more. Next, this is Bloomberg. Big
Speaker 1: tech is hitting the brakes on hiring, from Apple and
Speaker 1: Microsoft to Netflix and Amazon. Silicon Valley is cutting back
Speaker 1: on growth after years of bulking up, the entire industry
Speaker 1: bracing for a potential recession. Alex Brin could cover social
Speaker 1: media from Bloomberg News to economies. David Kirkpatrick still with us. So, look,
Speaker 1: you've got Microsoft eliminating new job openings, Google slow and
Speaker 1: hiring for the rest of the year, Amazon saying they
Speaker 1: overstaffed during the pandemic, now they have to cut back. Alex,
Speaker 1: what are the biggest headlines you've seen in this raft
Speaker 1: of news from tech companies that they're pulling back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm saying a lot of pointing fingers at things like
Speaker 1: rising inflation hitting costs UM and UH, and customers of
Speaker 1: folks like Amazon who sell products pulling back spending. I'm
Speaker 1: also seeing a lot of this idea of macroeconomic uncertainty
Speaker 1: hitting companies that depend on advertising on their businesses. I
Speaker 1: think a couple of really good examples, Emily, are in
Speaker 1: the second quarter results we saw this week from the
Speaker 1: likes of Twitter and from Snap. Both of them pointed
Speaker 1: to this kind of macroeconomic uncertainty hitting their advertisers and
Speaker 1: causing campaign budgets to go down. So that means that
Speaker 1: the places that they depend on for revenue are getting smaller.
Speaker 1: That advertising pie is shrinking, Snap for um for that company,
Speaker 1: UM gave some hints into what a lot of these
Speaker 1: companies might be thinking about. They said, Look, the pool
Speaker 1: of money that we're making on the top line is
Speaker 1: getting smaller, So we're actually looking across our business and
Speaker 1: seeing where can we optimize um our bottom line, Where
Speaker 1: can we optimize profitability, What other opportunities that were already
Speaker 1: working on can we look just squeeze a bit more
Speaker 1: money out of. And of course, like the rest of
Speaker 1: the companies you mentioned at the top, they are being
Speaker 1: really cautious when it comes to adding more headcount and
Speaker 1: more costs and which investments they are picking because it
Speaker 1: seems like right now we're in a bit of a
Speaker 1: chopping environment. Emily, Indeed, it seems like we're getting memo
Speaker 1: after memo from various ceo saying we're slowing down here,
Speaker 1: we're pulling back there. I want to warn you about this, David.
Speaker 1: You know some of these, you know, are companies that
Speaker 1: haven't reported yet. They're gonna be reporting over the next
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. But what do you think they're seeing
Speaker 1: that the rest of us aren't yet. Well, I think
Speaker 1: each one is a different story. I suspect that the
Speaker 1: big companies aren't seeing terrible as spending results yet that
Speaker 1: could easily happen in the near future. Uh. Certainly in
Speaker 1: the case of Meta Facebook, there is a real possibility,
Speaker 1: as the Great Alex Kendrew has pointed out in his
Speaker 1: newsletter this week that Facebook Meta really could have their
Speaker 1: first year over year decline in revenues. Ever. Uh So
Speaker 1: that would be really a big change for a company
Speaker 1: that has had a historic run of just growth after
Speaker 1: growth after growth for really well over a decade. Um.
Speaker 1: But but these the thing about Meta too that I
Speaker 1: think people may forget is that the big advertisers are
Speaker 1: not their primary source of revenue. There it's very important,
Speaker 1: but they're small business and media business are really where
Speaker 1: their bread is buttered. And you know, at this point
Speaker 1: in the economic shift, I suspect that smaller companies are
Speaker 1: still willing to spend to try to stimulate business so
Speaker 1: my guess is that metas results will not be shockingly bad,
Speaker 1: although they even themselves predicted growth are slowing. You know,
Speaker 1: we saw that user growth even started to drop in
Speaker 1: certain key geography. So they have problems all over the place.
Speaker 1: They have an identity crisis. You know, they don't even
Speaker 1: know who they are the you know, the metaverse. They're
Speaker 1: predicting too soon. I'm going on. But uh, there's some
Speaker 1: thoughts well, and there's an interesting question of how did
Speaker 1: the social media company survivor recession when most of them
Speaker 1: aren't around in two thousand eight and Facebook was only
Speaker 1: four years old. I mean, I know that's when you
Speaker 1: were writing your book, but you know, we don't really
Speaker 1: have a lot of past experience to to to indicate
Speaker 1: how social media will survive a recession. Well, that company
Speaker 1: in particular has zero exper arians. The irony is, um,
Speaker 1: I was writing my book in late two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: throughout all of two thousand and nine came out. So
Speaker 1: this is when the economy was in terrible shape, and
Speaker 1: ironically I barely noticed because at Facebook there was no
Speaker 1: evidence of it. What sweve um and so there really
Speaker 1: is unequivocally you can say Mark Zuckerberg has never been
Speaker 1: through a real downturn, and be people who are young
Speaker 1: may not realize in two thousand and eight, two thousand
Speaker 1: and nine we had a serious recession. That is something
Speaker 1: very very new for that company in particular. Well, and
Speaker 1: obviously Mark Zuckerberg has made a lot of big acquisitions
Speaker 1: over the years, but wasn't able to buy Snap, wasn't
Speaker 1: able to buy Twitter if that was ever really on
Speaker 1: the table. But Alex, do you do think could M
Speaker 1: and A be a possibility? You know, could some of
Speaker 1: these companies buy or sell their way out of this
Speaker 1: potentially if they feel like they have the cash to
Speaker 1: do so. Um. For Mark Zuckerberry looking at Facebook, um,
Speaker 1: I that they have this now existential threat of the
Speaker 1: macroeconomic environment. He's also kind of dealing with this threat
Speaker 1: of users wanting and experience that didn't originate on Facebook.
Speaker 1: The TikTok size elephant in the room is something that
Speaker 1: all of the metal platforms, from Facebook to Instagram are
Speaker 1: also having to contend with. Right now, it looks like
Speaker 1: that company in particular is betting on building and changing
Speaker 1: both the flagship face Facebook app and the Instagram app
Speaker 1: to better satiate users obsession with short form videos without
Speaker 1: trying to alienate the user base um that they have.
Speaker 1: You saw changes with both Facebook and Instagram's core experience
Speaker 1: this week, basically making them look more like TikTok so
Speaker 1: um buying their way out of it. You know, I
Speaker 1: think that would be a big question, and if I
Speaker 1: were the board of these companies, I would want to
Speaker 1: be maybe taking a conservative view, because if you're not
Speaker 1: putting that money toward things like head count and bringing
Speaker 1: on people too more quickly develop things in house, I
Speaker 1: would think that those dollars would need to be spent
Speaker 1: pretty presciently if you're looking for somebody to keep up
Speaker 1: with the times amongst these social media companies. David, I
Speaker 1: believe you were reporting at the time of the dot
Speaker 1: com bust. I mean, based on your own professional experience.
Speaker 1: What's your sense of how Silicon Valley, this version of
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley survives a recession. Well, I don't think survival
Speaker 1: is in question. I mean, these companies are deeply embedded,
Speaker 1: as I said in the earlier segment in the world economy.
Speaker 1: But but interestingly, the business at Meta that is most
Speaker 1: embedded is the one they get essentially no revenue from
Speaker 1: what's that UM, and I find out I rhn UM,
Speaker 1: but I think that they really will be okay for
Speaker 1: the short term. It's you know, I think if it's
Speaker 1: likely a recession will be short if we have one,
Speaker 1: and I think they will manage their way out. Interesting. Uh, Brinka,
Speaker 1: you know what are you what are you hearing from
Speaker 1: your sources inside these companies? Is there you know? For
Speaker 1: some of my sources at Facebook, it still seems like
Speaker 1: good times, yeah, or at least it seems like motivated times, right. Um.
Speaker 1: You have the company prioritizing things like um changes to
Speaker 1: their feeds, like I mentioned, to keep up with with
Speaker 1: the tik talks of the world. You also have UM
Speaker 1: you know that whole uh, not legacy business, but existing business,
Speaker 1: the ad business on Instagram and Facebook basically funding their
Speaker 1: new ventures into the metaverse, the bright Chinese new object
Speaker 1: that Mark Zuckerberg has indicated is the future of where
Speaker 1: they're going. So good times in parts of the business.
Speaker 1: I will flag Emily with these hiring freezes and maybe
Speaker 1: the bad pockets that we're seeing at meta UM, there's
Speaker 1: concern around things that really matter to a lot of
Speaker 1: the people on the ground, like diverse workforces and what
Speaker 1: happens when you're not hiring as many people and how
Speaker 1: do they continue to contact end with UM the bubbling
Speaker 1: up of misinformation going into the mid term, So UM,
Speaker 1: I think that you know, good times depending on what
Speaker 1: team you're sitting on, might be the way to look
Speaker 1: at that. Are you within the groups that are seen
Speaker 1: as kind of the future, or you know the really
Speaker 1: necessary changes that are instrumental to making sure that these
Speaker 1: businesses maintain their cultural relevancy with the users that are
Speaker 1: so important to them and advertisers, or are you in
Speaker 1: some of these pockets that maybe are starting to fall
Speaker 1: below the line UM and are not seen as places
Speaker 1: that the that their internal dollars should go UM to
Speaker 1: kind of catapult the company into into and through a
Speaker 1: chop your economic environment quick David Snap just shed half
Speaker 1: its value. Evan Spiegel didn't want to sell before, but
Speaker 1: do you think he might be more willing now or
Speaker 1: it could Snap be a target. I think it could be.
Speaker 1: But really, with Lena Khan at the FTC, the current
Speaker 1: mood in the US government and the EU, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's a good time for any of these companies
Speaker 1: to make a big acquisition um, I also think just
Speaker 1: quickly a well to mention. You know, I do think
Speaker 1: Facebook Metal will get through this. But Zuckerberg's comments recently
Speaker 1: about pairing back his staff sounded very heartless. I think
Speaker 1: they were very ill. They showed an inexperienced manager, and
Speaker 1: it could deter future hiring. It really makes it sound
Speaker 1: like a bad place to work. If you know, we've
Speaker 1: got a lot of deadwood, let's just get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Indeed, interesting point. Okay, Damn M. Kirkpatrick's CEO
Speaker 1: of Techonomy. As always in our very own alet Sparenka,
Speaker 1: appreciate you joining a few other stories. We continue to
Speaker 1: watch progressive groups once send a majority leader Chuck Schumer
Speaker 1: to recuse himself from legislation targeting big tech. They say
Speaker 1: he has a conflict of interest because his daughters or
Speaker 1: Get Amazon and Meta. Various different groups have been advocating
Speaker 1: for anti trust measures cracking down on tech giants. No
Speaker 1: comment yet from Schumer himself. Commerce at Terry Jena Raimondo
Speaker 1: says the US can't keep relying on Taiwan for semiconductors.
Speaker 1: In a virtual speech at the Aspen Security Forum, Raimondo
Speaker 1: said Congress needs to pass legislation to support the domestic
Speaker 1: production of high end computer chips. She also called the
Speaker 1: fifty billion dollar package quote a spot Nick moment for America.
Speaker 1: Apple has changed its tune in Washington. New lobby disclosure
Speaker 1: figures reviewed by Bloomberg show that Apple has been spending
Speaker 1: more money than ever before. Apple even going as far
Speaker 1: as deploying Tim Cook himself to work the halls of Congress.
Speaker 1: This as the tech giant is fighting the package of
Speaker 1: antitrust bills that might get a vote next week. Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Smart German joins us now for more So, Mark, it's
Speaker 1: understandable that Tim Cook might have more sway if he
Speaker 1: visits Washington personally than if he sends in a team
Speaker 1: of lobbyists. But what do we know about how app
Speaker 1: poll is change in tact. It seems like this is episodic.
Speaker 1: Right now. It's a very challenging time, not only for Apple,
Speaker 1: but a lot of the big tech companies where they
Speaker 1: really need to up their lobbying efforts to fight against
Speaker 1: some bills and some circumstances that could really up end
Speaker 1: some of their business models. Right so, it makes sense
Speaker 1: to me that Tim Cook would be there personally talking
Speaker 1: to lawmakers, meeting with people on Capitol Hill, and voicing
Speaker 1: Apple's concerns with some of these bills surrounding anti trust measures.
Speaker 1: Tim Cook also has wanted to float new privacy laws,
Speaker 1: and him, along with some executives from other companies, are
Speaker 1: trying to put push new privacy laws there as well.
Speaker 1: Cook has been making the argument that Apple's privacy centric
Speaker 1: approach to its products not only is good for the consumers,
Speaker 1: but means they really shouldn't have to take on these
Speaker 1: new anti trust bills because they do it in order
Speaker 1: to make the devices more private. Now, that doesn't make
Speaker 1: a ton of sense to me and a lot of people,
Speaker 1: but that is Apple's argument there, and that is what
Speaker 1: he has been pushing. So here's a question. Is it working.
Speaker 1: Is Tim Cook himself of going to Washington making these
Speaker 1: um pushes, Are our our lawmakers hearing it. There have
Speaker 1: been some changes to some of the bills, some of
Speaker 1: the language there that will make the anti trust bills
Speaker 1: less difficult on Apple in terms of needing to change
Speaker 1: things right, particularly with that privacy argument. It has been
Speaker 1: working in some respects. Obviously, the efforts won't fully work
Speaker 1: unless these nentry trust bills don't pass, and Apple doesn't
Speaker 1: have to make widespread changes to its products. But of
Speaker 1: course it's not only the US where Apple is doing
Speaker 1: its lobbying efforts. One big fundamental change that the company
Speaker 1: is making next year is changing the port on the
Speaker 1: iPhone from Lightning, which has existed for the last ten
Speaker 1: eleven years, to USBC, And that's in part due to
Speaker 1: some changes that lawmakers abroad have pushed. So Apple really
Speaker 1: is taking it from all angles here and that is
Speaker 1: why they're upping these lobbying spends. So this package of
Speaker 1: tech bills that would potentially curb some of the power
Speaker 1: of these companies were expected to see potentially some movement
Speaker 1: on them next week. Any likelihood any of this will
Speaker 1: pass us, you know, I think it's you know, truly
Speaker 1: to tell there has been some momentum on Capitol Hill
Speaker 1: for these bills. If I were to, you know, tell
Speaker 1: you one way or another, I would just be speculating.
Speaker 1: I personally think that major changes are coming to Apple's
Speaker 1: platforms in either way. Right, there's obviously the Digital Markets Act,
Speaker 1: there's the acts that you have been talking about. There
Speaker 1: are the different laws that have been pushed from lawmakers
Speaker 1: abroad in here at home in the US. Right, So
Speaker 1: I do think we're going to see fundamental changes either way.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's about if, but I think it's
Speaker 1: about when. Whether that's this year, next year, or the
Speaker 1: year after, there will be a fundamental shift. And how
Speaker 1: does what Apple's doing compared to what other big tech
Speaker 1: companies are doing on the hill, whether it is Meta
Speaker 1: or Alphabet or Amazon. I mean, they all have huge
Speaker 1: lobbying arms, right, I mean I think that you can
Speaker 1: take a look at the lab being spent and some
Speaker 1: of these other companies are doing. Apple spent a few
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars. So sorry, let me step back. A
Speaker 1: few million dollars, not a few hundred million dollars. I
Speaker 1: know that's a big difference this year on lobbying. That
Speaker 1: is an increase for Apple over some prior years, right,
Speaker 1: But that is about half of what you're seeing maybe
Speaker 1: from Amazon or Microsoft. But still this is noteworthy because
Speaker 1: it's an increased for Apple. Just because Apple is doing
Speaker 1: less or even as much as what those other companies
Speaker 1: have been doing now for the first time, it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean it's not a big change for them. So certainly
Speaker 1: we are seeing a Sea change. Here we are seeing
Speaker 1: Apple taking DC in the need for lobbying very seriously.
Speaker 1: What has been pretty interesting to me is how different
Speaker 1: the Apple relationship appears to be with the Biden administration
Speaker 1: that it has been with the Trump administration. I feel
Speaker 1: like when Trump was around in office, you saw, you know,
Speaker 1: Tim Cook meeting with Donald Trump very frequently talking about him.
Speaker 1: You saw Trump talking about Cook often. But in terms
Speaker 1: of the Apple relationship with Biden, that has been very different.
Speaker 1: The last time we saw the Biden say anything related
Speaker 1: to Apple, he had to do with unionization and Apple
Speaker 1: retail stores. Tim Cook participated in a Biden administration meeting
Speaker 1: regarding cybersecurity. But you have not seen the type of
Speaker 1: lobbying that Tim Cook did with Donald Trump that you're
Speaker 1: seeing now with Tim Cook Doom with Joe Biden. It
Speaker 1: is much different. It seems like the relationship is definitely
Speaker 1: not as close. Interesting all right, much to continue to
Speaker 1: follow Bloomberg, Smart German, thank you for your reporting their
Speaker 1: meantime back to inflation. On top of surging gas and
Speaker 1: grocery prices, single people are finding another aspect of life
Speaker 1: is getting more expensive. Dating and as costs balloons. Some
Speaker 1: datas are scaling back and being more selective about the
Speaker 1: dates they're going on. This according to data from dating
Speaker 1: apps themselves. Bloomberg's Pauline Kuchero wrote about this and joins us, now,
Speaker 1: so what are we learning about how the dating market
Speaker 1: has changed? Pauline? Yeah, so, you know, I think that
Speaker 1: we're seeing that, as you mentioned, with the cost staying
Speaker 1: on the rise. You know, people really have the love
Speaker 1: and money the top mind when they're looking for a partner.
Speaker 1: That's changing the dating game entirely. Tensions are rising over
Speaker 1: house to fulfill um and people, as I mentioned, people
Speaker 1: are scaling back and being more selective dates they're going
Speaker 1: because they're finding that they're dating costs have doubled. One
Speaker 1: woman I talked to said she spent on average, about
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars a month on dating. Now she's spending
Speaker 1: about four hundred. So, you know, people are just being
Speaker 1: a lot more intentional about who they're dating and what
Speaker 1: they're looking for, and they're finding, you know, that they
Speaker 1: want to be with a person who is financially savvy
Speaker 1: and offer some kind of financial stability as well. How
Speaker 1: is this impacting the dating apps themselves? I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I hear a lot from single friends. You know, these
Speaker 1: apps are already kind of expensive and you don't know
Speaker 1: for sure if you're going to get that payoff. Are
Speaker 1: the costs of a subscription to you know, see those
Speaker 1: extra profiles or get that extra information? Is that going up?
Speaker 1: And are people paying up or is this, you know,
Speaker 1: something that's discretionary, something that they're cutting off given that
Speaker 1: they're under pressure across the board. When it comes to prices, well,
Speaker 1: I can't say too much about the subscription prices on
Speaker 1: dating apps specifically, but when we talk to the dating apps,
Speaker 1: he said, although that some people are being more selective
Speaker 1: about their dates, they're not necessarily stopping their love life entirely.
Speaker 1: Some small, select few people are. They are just looking
Speaker 1: for certain partners instead of you know, going on a
Speaker 1: more spontaneous state. They're making sure that they're being upfront
Speaker 1: with what they want. Um, you know, in the early
Speaker 1: courting phase of dating, which is an extension of the
Speaker 1: stating trend called hardballing, and if someone doesn't really fit
Speaker 1: the bill, um, they're not willing to take a chance
Speaker 1: on that person. Um. You know. Dating apps are also
Speaker 1: finding that people are being a little bit more creative
Speaker 1: about the dates that they're going on. You know, instead
Speaker 1: of maybe going on taking someone out to a really
Speaker 1: nice dinner, maybe they're going to a picnic instead, or
Speaker 1: they're maybe going to a museum or going to a
Speaker 1: farmers market and making a home crew feel I love
Speaker 1: farmers markets, Nothing wrong with that. Are people changing what
Speaker 1: they're looking for? Um? Do do do these apps say
Speaker 1: that that is a alving at all? Yeah, we're definitely
Speaker 1: seeing that evolve. Um. You know, as you mentioned, Americans
Speaker 1: are feeling the pinch from inflation, so finding a person
Speaker 1: who is financially savvy is an increasingly attractive quality. Okay,
Speaker 1: keep the daters who said they keep a budget have
Speaker 1: received sixteen percent more matches and seven percent more likes
Speaker 1: over the past three months than people who said they didn't,
Speaker 1: and nearly half of date years on the A also
Speaker 1: so that they would love to find a partner who
Speaker 1: earns more money than them. So I think you're just
Speaker 1: seeing that, you know, people are looking for a person
Speaker 1: that they know that they can weather a recession with,
Speaker 1: who they know that they can rely on. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: both emotionally and you know, financially as well. All right, interesting, Paul,
Speaker 1: Nick at Chero, thanks for bringing us that Story's more
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com. Okay, coming up, the etherory emerged
Speaker 1: now as a date, we're gonna talk about just how
Speaker 1: massive the impact could be on the crypto industry. Next,
Speaker 1: this is Bloomberg. It's time now for our crypto report.
Speaker 1: And there are new developments in that story of the
Speaker 1: former coin based product manager who was arrested for alleged
Speaker 1: insider trading, and coin bas is now pushing back against
Speaker 1: these allegations are crypto Contributortionale Bossik is here with the
Speaker 1: latest So is coin based defending this former product manager.
Speaker 1: There's really a lot of nuance here, Emily, and really
Speaker 1: the question at stake here is what is a security
Speaker 1: and our digital assets securities. So you take a look
Speaker 1: at this inside your trading case, and you have coin
Speaker 1: Bases chief legal officer Paul grier Wall talking about how
Speaker 1: illicit behavior is something they take super seriously. Obviously coin
Speaker 1: based did cooperate with this investigation. But the thing that's
Speaker 1: really in question here is that definition of securities itself
Speaker 1: and whether this is securities fraud. So, for example, we
Speaker 1: have Paul Paul where while talking about in a blog
Speaker 1: post the idea here that seven of the nine assets
Speaker 1: included in the SEC's charges are listed on coin Basis
Speaker 1: platform and none of these assets are securities. You have
Speaker 1: different regulators here coming in and different definitions here, and
Speaker 1: he to go on. Paul grow Wealth has also said
Speaker 1: that coin base has a rigorous process to analyze and
Speaker 1: review each digital asset before making it available on the exchange,
Speaker 1: a process that the SEC itself has reviewed. Now, if
Speaker 1: you go on to read more of the blog post,
Speaker 1: he talks about and cites the CFTC Commissioner talking about
Speaker 1: how this is a striking example of regulation by enforcement here.
Speaker 1: So you do see some differential between not just the agencies,
Speaker 1: but also in the way that coin base is interacting
Speaker 1: with those agencies as they comply with this investigation of
Speaker 1: an issue here where certain securities were traded before certain
Speaker 1: tokens were listed. But again, are tokens just tokens or
Speaker 1: are they securities on Emily and they yet play out?
Speaker 1: That is the question time indeed, Okay, stay with us.
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more about Ethereum's
Speaker 1: next chapter, the highly anticipated merge. A date has now
Speaker 1: been set and if everything goes to plan, we should
Speaker 1: expect Ethereum's final merge to happen the second week of September.
Speaker 1: More specifically, I want to bring in our next guest,
Speaker 1: Matt Hogan, c IO a bit Wise Asset Management UM. Matt,
Speaker 1: So curious what you're thinking is around the merge and
Speaker 1: just how impactful it would be it will be on
Speaker 1: the broader industry. Yeah, this is a massive piece of
Speaker 1: news for Ethereum and for crypto more broadly. I think
Speaker 1: this is the biggest development in the crypto space since
Speaker 1: the launch of the DeFi summer in. It's going to
Speaker 1: transform Ethereum into an asset that institutional investors UH feel
Speaker 1: increasingly attracted to, maybe even compelled to own, and it
Speaker 1: could be the marker that represents part of the bottoming
Speaker 1: process we're going through in crypto. We may look back
Speaker 1: on this merge, or the announcement of the data the
Speaker 1: merge as a signal market that single moment that turned
Speaker 1: us from sort of the crypto winner UH into at
Speaker 1: least a sideways move before we go to the next
Speaker 1: big up move. Now. We recently interviewed the co founder
Speaker 1: of Tezos, Kathleen Brightman, who didn't have nice things to
Speaker 1: say about Ethereum. Take who quick listen to what she
Speaker 1: had to say. In reality, it's really no different than
Speaker 1: something like hex which is which is kind of a
Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme that's crashed and lust you weeks, which is
Speaker 1: just a token that Big Sleep pays you for freezing at.
Speaker 1: The longer you've reason, the more you receive. It's just
Speaker 1: it's a equation. Obviously, we know, Matt this is very
Speaker 1: tribalistic industry, but she kind of likened Ethereum to a
Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme. Yeah, I don't see that analogy. Ethereum is
Speaker 1: the new infrastructure on which decentralized finance n f t
Speaker 1: s and stable coins are being built. Teos is an
Speaker 1: interesting project that's trying to compete with Ethereum, but it's
Speaker 1: a tiny fraction of the size. It has a tiny
Speaker 1: fraction of the developer community. What she was speaking about
Speaker 1: was part of the merge is going to incentivize long
Speaker 1: term investors in Ethereum to lock up their eath, to
Speaker 1: stake their eath, which allows them to earn a yield
Speaker 1: on their investment, which takes some out of the market
Speaker 1: and should be a creative to prices. I would put
Speaker 1: a more positive frame on it. As a long term investor,
Speaker 1: you're going to be able to access what amounts to
Speaker 1: almost adventure capital style investment, one with huge potential payoff,
Speaker 1: but one where you can earn a yield that could
Speaker 1: be eight, nine or ten or more. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a Ponzi scheme. I think it's the new Internet
Speaker 1: of finance and we're just at the beginning of that transition. Well,
Speaker 1: speaking of that transition and tribal ism here, what does
Speaker 1: it mean for bitcoin and do you think one wins
Speaker 1: out of the other, especially when you look at how
Speaker 1: nascent a etherium is in terms of valuation compared to bitcoin.
Speaker 1: It's it's a great question. Uh. You know, on one hand, yes,
Speaker 1: ethereum will win out marginally over big coin. By that,
Speaker 1: I mean that today institutional investors have only been in
Speaker 1: bitcoin primarily, and in the future of crypto, they're going
Speaker 1: to be in bitcoin ethereum, and I would argue a
Speaker 1: wide array of assets. That's one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: bit wise creates crypto index funds. So it is going
Speaker 1: to force institutional investors to diversify their holdings. But more
Speaker 1: than that, this is going to be a rising tide
Speaker 1: that lifts all boats again. What's happening in ethereum will
Speaker 1: catalyze new interesting crypto, new opportunities in crypto, and I
Speaker 1: suspect Bitcoin and ethereum will rise side by side. I
Speaker 1: think ethereum share of the crypto market could increase substantially
Speaker 1: compared to Bitcoin. But I suspect that both of them
Speaker 1: are going to be heading up over the next few years.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of questions about state ethereum
Speaker 1: and ethereum, and there's still a bit of a balance
Speaker 1: if you look at kind of the liquidity pools. I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: you know, this is a grand test of time when
Speaker 1: it comes to decentralized finance. There's so much debate about
Speaker 1: whether DeFi will win in the end given the issues
Speaker 1: that we see and in centralized finances in crypto, But
Speaker 1: how do you know what the issues will be moving
Speaker 1: forward as this industry goes Yeah, well you don't know.
Speaker 1: Of course, that's the risk that you take. There is
Speaker 1: no risk free reward in investing, and there's certainly a
Speaker 1: lot of risks in the crypto market. But if you
Speaker 1: look at what took place over the last cycle, we
Speaker 1: saw the rapid emergence of Defy, We saw the rapid
Speaker 1: emergence of n f t s. We saw a hundred
Speaker 1: billion dollars plus flow into stable coins, all built on
Speaker 1: programmable blockchains like Ethereum. As we get through this crypto
Speaker 1: window and start thinking about what are the new products
Speaker 1: that we're going to see in the future, we're gonna
Speaker 1: see growth and defy in n f t s, and
Speaker 1: stable coins will also see huge growth and things like
Speaker 1: web three interactions, gaming, digital identity. I think the market cycle,
Speaker 1: the next market cycle we're moving to, is going to
Speaker 1: be orders of magnitude larger than the last cycle, and
Speaker 1: that was really just a proof of concept phase. This
Speaker 1: next few years is when crypto goes mainstream. So that's
Speaker 1: what we expect from Ethereum and the broader crypto into street.
Speaker 1: So tease that out for me a bit. How how
Speaker 1: much bigger do you think the cycle will be? Oh?
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's you know, many, multiple
Speaker 1: times bigger. Is the answer to that. Again, we saw
Speaker 1: if you think about cryptos returns, what drives cryptos returns?
Speaker 1: Crypto booms when it develops products that people want. It
Speaker 1: boomed in the early when people develop Bitcoin, which was
Speaker 1: this interesting non monetary ast, non sovereign monetary asset. It
Speaker 1: boomed in when we in the THEORYUM and I c
Speaker 1: O S. The most recent boom was when we had
Speaker 1: n f t s and we had stable coins UH
Speaker 1: and we had defied, but that just penetrated one percent
Speaker 1: in the market. I think the market opportunity for all
Speaker 1: of those are ten x. I think there are five
Speaker 1: or six other killer products that will see in the
Speaker 1: next market cycle. So I really think that the next
Speaker 1: boom could be five ten times bigger than the prior boom.
Speaker 1: I think it will be the moment that crypto goes
Speaker 1: mainstream and your friends, your uncle's, your cousins are all
Speaker 1: interact thing with the crypto market via through gaming, digital identity, music,
Speaker 1: n f t S, ticketing, defy traditional n f t
Speaker 1: s or stable points for payments. I do think it
Speaker 1: is borders of magnitude larger. It's probably still a year
Speaker 1: or two off, but you can see it clearly on
Speaker 1: the horizon, and then we're getting closer to it every day. Matt,
Speaker 1: how can always good to have you CEO of bit
Speaker 1: Wise Asset Management, appreciate it and our very own have
Speaker 1: a great weekend. After a few years of complaints from
Speaker 1: pro users looking to unlock the full potential of their
Speaker 1: iPad pro and it's speedy new chips, Apple recently launch
Speaker 1: Stage Manager, a brand new multitasking system. The feature let's
Speaker 1: iPad users run multiple app windows at the same time,
Speaker 1: and it even works far better than before with large
Speaker 1: external monitors. The features exclusive to the latest iPads with
Speaker 1: M one chips and also works on computers running Mac
Speaker 1: os Ntura. Users can click through their recent apps on
Speaker 1: the left side of their display and then quickly pop
Speaker 1: any of those programs or workspaces into the foreground. But
Speaker 1: I don't think that this new multitasking system really fully
Speaker 1: cuts it. It's often confusing and sometimes hides key controls
Speaker 1: behind extra menus. It seems like Apple came up with
Speaker 1: a solution that dances around the most obvious one, bringing
Speaker 1: full Mac os like multitasking to the iPad. The iPad
Speaker 1: now has big eleven inch and nearly thirteen inch displays
Speaker 1: in the same M one chip that powers the Mac
Speaker 1: Book are and the iMac. It can handle and should
Speaker 1: be able to make good use of core Mac multitasking
Speaker 1: features like xpos A and mission control pro users like
Speaker 1: myself want that full flexibility to run as many windows
Speaker 1: as possible at one time and quickly clicked between several
Speaker 1: tasks simultaneously. The good news is is that stage Manager
Speaker 1: builds in new technologies for the iPad, like multi window
Speaker 1: support and rescalable and resizeable windows. That means that some
Speaker 1: of the underlying technology that would be needed to eventually
Speaker 1: implement full Mac like multitasking is now built into iPad
Speaker 1: O S sixteen. Only time will tell if Apple will
Speaker 1: eventually fully unlocked the iPad. The good news is is
Speaker 1: that stage Manager today is optional, so it appears that
Speaker 1: even Apple knows that one day it will need a
Speaker 1: brand new solution for all iPad users. I'm Mark German.
Speaker 1: This is power On, Don't Forget. You can subscribe to
Speaker 1: Mark's weekly power On newsletter at Bloomberg dot com. Meantime,
Speaker 1: there is a new social media app in town, and
Speaker 1: it's being dubbed the anti Instagram. The app requires users
Speaker 1: to take a photo within a two minute window every day,
Speaker 1: and it has soared in popularity over the last few
Speaker 1: weeks in spite of complaints that it crashes at a
Speaker 1: critical moment. It's called be real, and it took the
Speaker 1: top spot in the US in Apple's app store three
Speaker 1: days this week with one point seven million installs the
Speaker 1: week of July eleven and a Friday kicker. If you
Speaker 1: love vintage Apple products, this is the holy Grail. Steve
Speaker 1: Jobs prototype for the first Apple desktop computer is up
Speaker 1: for auction. It was handbuilt by co founder Steve Wozniak
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six and it is one of two
Speaker 1: hundred different models right now, it's going for about two
Speaker 1: d thirty thousand dollars and Apple one prototype was sold
Speaker 1: for four hundred seventy thousand dollars. And that does it
Speaker 1: for the edition of Bloomberg Technology. We've got a huge
Speaker 1: week of tech earnings coming up. Meta Alphabet, Apple, Amazon
Speaker 1: and more. We will be across it all, and don't
Speaker 1: forget to check out our podcast anywhere you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: I'm Emily Chang in San Francisco. Have a wonderful weekend everyone.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg