1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio my guest today. Filmmaker Tony Palmer 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: knows how to tell a story, particularly when it involves musicians. 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: He's made more than one hundred films, featuring everyone from 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: Cream to Stravinsky, Jimmy Hendrix to Yehudi menu In, Leonard 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: Khne to Richard Wagner. He collaborated with Frank Zappa on 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: the surreal cult classic Two Hundred Motels, and with his 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: friend John Lennon on All You Need Is Love, a 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: multi part series on the early days of rock and roll. 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: Tony Palmer's work has been recognized with over forty international awards, 11 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: not bad for someone who fell into filmmaking. Well, if 12 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: I tell you the true story, I inclined to believe 13 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: that you won't take it at my word, but I 14 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: promise you this is what happened. I was at Cambridge 15 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: University and had ambitions to be a minor academic. We're 16 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: talking about October and I went to a press conference 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: given by the Beatles, who were then famous, but not 18 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: intergalactically or so as they became later on, and I 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: went representing the university newspaper, and at the press conference 20 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: held in the then Regal cinema at lunchtime they were 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: giving a concert that night. I just thought the whole 22 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: thing was rather silly. And as we were milling around afterwards, 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: this rather scruffy lad came up to me and he said, 24 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: you didn't ask any questions, and I said, no, that's 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: perfectly true. Why not? Well, I thought it was all 26 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: rather silly. Yes, it was very silly. He said, very silly, 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: because it was very typical of those early Beatles conferences 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: where they were sort of just laughing about. And then 29 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: he said what do you do? And I said, well, 30 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a student? What of? And I was doing 31 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: something called moral sciences don't be confused by that had 32 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: nothing to do with morality, little owned science. And then 33 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: it surprised me and said would you take me around 34 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: the University of this afternoon? And I first said no, 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: why not? Well you'll be mobbed and that's not my 36 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: idea of fun. And he he said, well, how about 37 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: if I come in disguise? So I was having my 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: bluff called at every turn, so finally I agreed. So 39 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: I met him outside the hotel where he was staying 40 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: an hour or so later, and sure enough this chap 41 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: turned up, and this enormous fedora had a completely stupid, 42 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: straggly beard, and if I say it was a dirty Macintosh, 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: that's about right. And we both just fell around laughing, 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: and he said he took the disguise off, and I 45 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: managed to take him into King's College Chapel, which is 46 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: that famous Henry the Eighth Chapel where the carols come 47 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: from at Christmas time. But rather more importantly, I got 48 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: him into the library at Trinity College, which is designed 49 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: by Christopher Wren is always known as the Ren Library. Now, 50 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: strictly speaking, we were trespassing because I wasn't supposed to 51 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: be there, because I wasn't at that college, and he 52 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: certainly wasn't supposed to be there. But having got him in, 53 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: I mean he was just taking books of every shelf 54 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: he could see. I couldn't get him out of there. 55 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: And it occurred to me that this was an essential 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: moment in John's life, as he later told me many times, 57 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: that he suddenly realized, as you said, being a war baby, 58 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: that he'd had no formal education, and that having been 59 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: carried away in this sort of wave of Beatlemania, so 60 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: young comparatively speaking, that he realized what he had missed. 61 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: Eventually I got him out of there and he just 62 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: he said, come to the concert. I was going to 63 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: the concert anyway, and he scribbled a telephone number on 64 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: a piece of paper and said, call me when you're 65 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: coming to London. I said, well, I'm actually not coming 66 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: to London, staying here and hope we will be some 67 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: sort of completely minor and insignificant academic. Well well, well, 68 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: he said. So. Three years later I eventually joined the BBC, 69 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: still having absolutely no ambitions to make films that let 70 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: alone get involved in any kind of documentary making. And 71 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: I still had this bit of paper with this phone number, 72 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: so I thought, well, nothing ventioned, nothing gained. So I 73 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: telephoned the number, and to my absolute astonishment, somebody answered 74 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: the phone and it was clear from the girl's tone 75 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: of voice that I was the four hundredth person who'd 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: rung up that morning. Said John Lennon said to call, 77 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: and I said, well he really did, but don't worry 78 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: about it. This is my phone number, and put the 79 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: phone down. Half an hour later, a guy called Derek Taylor. 80 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: You will know of Derek Taylor, he was the beg 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: famous publicity. Yeah, rang me up and said I've got 82 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: a message for you from John. So at this point 83 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm kind of in a state of shriveled excitement because 84 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: now they were intergalactically fame us. And I kept thinking, 85 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: what the hell is this message going to be? Is? 86 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: Who the hell is this? What does he want? Why 87 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: doesn't he leave me alone? So nervously finally I said, well, 88 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: what is the message? Quick as a flash, Derek came 89 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: back with the reply, well, John wants to know why 90 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: it's taking you three years to call him. And that 91 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: was the beginning of a rather bizarre relationship between the 92 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: two of us. Interesting you mentioned that about Lennon and 93 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: his yearning from for greater education. I worked with an actress, 94 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: one who shall remain nameless. I don't want to embarrass anybody, 95 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: but this actress was someone who we were talking about 96 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: the scenes and there was an historical component, and the 97 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: director was there and we're having a meeting, and then 98 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: we went into her trailer and we talked a little 99 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: bit more about the film and some aspect of history 100 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: that informed the project. And I was going on and 101 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: on and holding forth on some of the research. I 102 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: don't mentioning this in this book, and so forth. And 103 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: she started sobbing. She burst out sobbing, and I said, 104 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: what's the matter, And she said, she said, I didn't 105 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: go to college. And she goes, I regretted every day 106 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: of my life. She goes, how I wish I'd gone 107 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: to college. And she was a beauty queen who was 108 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: a gorgeous a woman when she was young, and it 109 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: was all modeling and advertising and then right into Hollywood. 110 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: And she said, I never went to school. And she said, 111 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: and I consider it one of the most staggering acts 112 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: of self robbery you could imagine. I wish I had. 113 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: And you think about what Lennon might have men as 114 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: a writer had he and he had a more of 115 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: a formal education post high school. I think that's absolutely true. 116 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: I mean, he was a man of such enormous imagination 117 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: and energy and enterprise and creativity and courage that, as 118 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: you said, I mean, how had he benefited. On the 119 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: other hand, you know, once you start benefiting quotes and 120 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: quotes from a formal education, to some extent, it restricts 121 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: you and to some extent it prevents you from these 122 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: huge leaps of imagination that you might otherwise have when 123 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: you make a film, and you've made quite a few films, 124 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: when you're doing research about Wagner, it's different when you're 125 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: relying on what other people said about that person, and 126 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: you're having to sift through their conclusions and assertions about 127 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: someone who you don't get a chance to meet, and 128 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: then you meet the person and you write your own 129 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: film based on your observations. Can you describe the difference 130 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: between the two involved. The thing I've learned about making 131 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: films about people who are alive or appear to be alive, 132 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: I think is more accurate is that practically everybody you 133 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: talk to doesn't tell you the truth. They want their 134 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: footnote in the major story, as it were. I mean, 135 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: I can give you no I think about the perfect 136 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: example of this. I made a film about Stevinsky at 137 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: the request of Stevinsky's widow, and it was hoped to 138 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: be the definitive film about Stevinsky. And one of the 139 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: people I wanted to interview was a choreographer called sergeley Far. 140 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: He was it was the Aguilev's last great choreographer, and 141 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: he wants to be interviewed in French, which is fine, 142 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: but he also wants to be interviewed at the hotel 143 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: in Montre where Nabakov lived. And I later discovered that 144 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: he had never been to that hotel before, but he 145 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: thought it would be good for his image if I 146 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: interviewed him in the same hotel where Nabakov lived. Interesting, Interesting, 147 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: the bonkers. Anyway, the interview went well, but suddenly towards 148 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: the end of the interview he started to tell this story, 149 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: and he said, I arrived in Venice, I went over 150 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: to the leader. I looked up at the hotel where 151 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: Sergey Pavlovitch was de Aguilev was staying. He looked very 152 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: ill to me. I went back across the lagoon. I 153 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: found a doctor. We came, etcetera, etcetera, and then the 154 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: concluding remarks were And then in my arms on the 155 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: night of August twenty nine, and I was remember the 156 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: date because it happens to be my birthday. In my arms, 157 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: Sergey Pavlovitch Agilev died, and as he said died, tears 158 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: were pouring down his cheeks, I mean literally sobbing. And 159 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: I thought, but I don't say anything. I'll wait I'll 160 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: pause and see what it said. The problem with the 161 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: story is there's not a word of truth in it. 162 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: He wasn't he wasn't Do you do when you're recording 163 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: someone who's lying to you, just to just to hold 164 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: their just to hold their seat at the table of history? 165 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: Well exactly. But then the question is I knew that 166 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: the story was not true, but do I include it 167 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: in the film or do I not include it in 168 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: the film? Now, all of my films, without exception, have 169 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: no narration, so I can't have a narrator, even as 170 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: distinguished narrator as you, to say, well, actually, Chaps, that 171 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: story is not true. But it's a good story, isn't it. 172 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: Like what do you do? Eventually I included it knowing 173 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't true, because you could see this that was 174 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: filmed in nineteen Diaguilefford died in so here we are 175 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: fifty some our years later, and you can still see 176 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: the pact that that extraordinary man Diagilev had on someone 177 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: like Surgeley far by the fact he's bursting into tears. 178 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I got fed up with a number of 179 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: people I've met over the years in whose arms x 180 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: Y and Zai have died. I mean Rostropovich, the great 181 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: Cellis once told me in my arms procoffeev died completely 182 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: forgetting to mention that that couldn't possibly been true, because 183 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: when Procoffee have died, he died the same day as Stalin, 184 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: and the entire center of Moscow was cordoned off. So 185 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: how have Rostropovich smuggled himself in in order that Procoffee 186 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: could very conveniently die in his arms? Was a question 187 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: which I don't think he was prepared to answer. As 188 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: you well know. You know documentary filmmaking stories that involved 189 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: the past. You're going back and talking to rock and 190 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: roll stars about wood stuck. It doesn't matter what it is. 191 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: You know, memory becomes this watercolor, it becomes this very 192 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: very blurry, undeveloped polaroid, and that's how they remember it. 193 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: That's absolutely true. I made a film with great English 194 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: composer William Walton, and Walton arguably is most famous for 195 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: having written coronation marches for various queens and kings, and 196 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: the first big hit he had was for the coronation 197 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: of George the Six, Queen Elizabeth's father, for which he 198 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: wrote Crown Imperial Right. So I now go to it. 199 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: I'm now interviewing Walton, who very old but very articulately. 200 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: So also spoke very very slowly, so I won't do that. 201 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: But he said, you know, I wrote that thing called 202 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: Crown Imperial for whatever he was called. It's called George 203 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: the six. William, Oh, yeah, yes, George is something or other. 204 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: And then I wrote another one for his daughter, what 205 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: was she called, Queen Elizabeth the Second? Oh? Yes, yes, 206 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: and that was called orb and Scepter. And now I'm 207 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: writing another one for the next king, Charles something or other, 208 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: and that's called the Bed Majestical. So I it, William, 209 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: Wait a second, where'd you get these wonderful titles from, Oh, 210 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: dear boy, don't be so silly? Crown Imperial Orban Sceptor 211 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: bed Majestical. It's a line from Henry the Five. There's 212 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: no line at all, but it's just a great thought, 213 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: you know that the three Since he wrote the music 214 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: for Lawrence Olivier's film version of Henry the Fifth, you're 215 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: beginning to terrify me. That should be down in all 216 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: the British history, now which it's been recounted by the Brits. 217 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: How much of it is true well British history very 218 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: little filmmaker Tony Palmer. If you love hearing stories of 219 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: how directors approached their work, be sure to check out 220 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: my conversation with Stephen Daldry. His films include Billy Elliott, 221 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: The Hours, The Reader and Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close. 222 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: I love editing you do. It's my favorite bit of pressure. 223 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: Is a film is written three times. You write it 224 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: to start it, and you rewrite it as you make it, 225 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: and then you do the final and proper right as 226 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: you put it all together. And it's like a jigsaw puzzle. 227 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: And I would imagine that the experience of editing makes 228 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: anyone a better filmmaker in terms of teaching you what 229 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: you need to have in the can people say to me, 230 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: you know, what should I do to learn how to 231 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: make a film? Just getting by final clup pro and 232 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: just start shooting stuff and then just start editing, and 233 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: you'll learn everything you need to know about making a 234 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: movie from editing. Here more of my conversation with Stephen 235 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: Daldry at Here's the Thing dot Org. After the Break, 236 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: Tony Palmer talks about the enduring trait he believes all 237 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: great artists possess. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 238 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: here's the thing. Tony Palmer's prolific work includes not one 239 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: or two, but three films about British composer Benjamin britt 240 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: Britain was the subject of Palmer's very first film, which 241 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: was released in nineteen sixty seven. He was in his 242 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: mid twenties then and making his way up the ranks 243 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: at the BBC. Now, the very first film I made 244 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: I actually inherited. I had worked with my boss Humphrey Burton, 245 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: who was biographer of Lenard Burnstein, amongst others. He and 246 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: I were developing a film about Benjamin Britain. Britain had 247 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: always resisted having a film made about him at home. 248 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: He didn't mind coming into a studio, he didn't mind 249 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: being filmed in a concert, but no way was anybody 250 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: going to get anywhere near his home. You know why 251 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: he wanted privacy, Yeah, absolutely, I mean he was already 252 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: in a classical world, incredibly famous, especially after the war 253 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: requim and he just didn't need it, didn't want it. 254 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: I was also told, interestingly enough, I should never ever 255 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: mentioned to Britain the name of john S Lessingship wonderful 256 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: director John S Lessingshire, because he had made a ten 257 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: minute little film about Britain and I think eight or 258 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: fifty nine, which Britain apparently had absolutely hated, and every 259 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: time I looked at the film, I couldn't see why 260 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: he hated it. Many years later, Peter Pears, Britain's lover 261 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: and the great tenor, said to me, well, he's not 262 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: sure whether Ben made a pass at Lessinger or Slessinger 263 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: made a pass at Ben, but it had gone wrong, 264 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: so that's why you can't there was something afoot anyway, 265 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: Humphrey Burton had spent years trying to set up a 266 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: film about Benjamin Britain. Seven was the opening of the 267 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: big new concert hall, which is now one of the 268 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: great concert halls of the world, and it was going 269 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: to be what is in effect state occasion. The Queen 270 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: was coming members of the royal family and it was 271 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: going to be the grand inauguration of this wonderful, wonderful 272 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: concert or so Britain was eventually persuaded that we'd be 273 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: there filming the Queen anyway, so you might as well 274 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: go along with this and give us a bit of help. 275 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: As it were so was all set up and then 276 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: we were due to start filming on a Monday, and 277 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: on the previous Wednesday, Humphrey Burton, who was making the film, 278 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: he got fired by the BBC. And he got fired 279 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: because it had been leaked to London Evening Press that 280 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: he was off to set up a commercial radio station. Now, 281 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: if you'd worked for the BBC, the notion that you 282 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: were going to abandon ship and go and set up 283 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: a commercial radio station, television station, that was anathema and 284 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: there were cries of betrayal, betrayal, betrayal. So I'm sort 285 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: of sitting in Oldboro and Suffolk, where Britain lived, thinking 286 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: what the hell do I do. Humphrey Burton, my boss 287 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: to them out is going to make the film is fine? 288 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: And I was also in a hotel that had no 289 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: phone in the room, so there was an endless knocks 290 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: on the door. There's a phone call for you come downstairs, 291 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: and then it was a man probably doesn't mean too 292 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: much of your American listeners, but the man called Hugh 293 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: Weldon was one of the greats of public service broadcasting, 294 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: and it was Hugh Olden on the phone. Now, apart 295 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: from Hugh Weldon, being the head of television. Effectively, he 296 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: was also a military cross. I mean, he was a 297 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: very distinguished soldier. So the conversation went a bit like this, partner, Yes, sir, 298 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: don't panic, I said, no, I'm not panicking. He said, 299 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: the cavalry are coming, and then slammed the phone down. 300 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: I had no idea what that do. So I go 301 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: back upstairs, still now in a state of real panic. 302 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: Twenty minutes later, knock knock on the door, and I said, 303 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: to the poor manager of the hotel, who kept running 304 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: up downstairs, I said, I don't care who it is, 305 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: but I'm not coming. He said, I think you'll want 306 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 1: to take this call. I said, why, who is it? 307 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: It's Mr Brittain on the phone. So I go, I 308 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: knew Britain by now. Yeah, I knew him by now, 309 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: but so, I mean, I wasn't thrown by that, but 310 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: I thought of having to explain myself. And when he 311 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: comes on the phone, he says, Tony always called me. 312 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: Tony said, don't worry, We've heard nothing to worry about. 313 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: I think you should come up and have tea in 314 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: our house with me and Peter and we'll discuss what 315 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: we do. And I remember two things from from that 316 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,239 Speaker 1: t One he couldn't sit still. He was cutting this 317 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: really beautiful fruitcake, which I remember I can taste it 318 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: even today. And then the second thing was the two 319 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: of them were giggling all the time while telling me, 320 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: don't worry, we'll get you through it. We'll get you 321 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: through it. So I said fine. Years and years later, 322 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: after Britain had died and I began to make other 323 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: films about Britain, especially with Peter Peers, and I asked, Peter, 324 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: remember that occasion. Why were you giggling? You know? Was 325 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: it something I was wearing, something I said, or did 326 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: I smell wrong? He said no, he said, you missed 327 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: the point. He said. We never wanted to make that film. 328 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: Humphrey had talked us into it, and we thought, now 329 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: we're stout with you and you're clearly an idiot and 330 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: have no idea what you're doing. We'll go along with it. 331 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: We stuck with We stuck with the B squad. Here, 332 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: B squad, the D s. God absolutely, So this is 333 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: your Bruno Walter moment at the Carnegie Hall. You get 334 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: summoned to conduct, you step up. This is your Leonard 335 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: Bernstein moment to step into the sunlight and take over. 336 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: How did it go? What was the experience like for you? Well, 337 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: I mean direct. It was, in fact the first color 338 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: film of the BBC ever to be networked in America. 339 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: It went out as a Bell Telephone Hour, which was 340 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 1: a tremendous thrill, and I mean it was not unsuccessful, 341 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: but unfortunately it came to the attention of one John 342 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: Lennon who summoned me again and said now then, he said, 343 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: now that you're well established at the BBC, I just 344 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: made one quite short films about fifty five minutes. Now 345 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: you're going to do something serious. And I said, right, what? 346 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: And he said, there are all these musicians who ought 347 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: to appear on the BBC. Either they refused to appear 348 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: on the BBC or they don't like the idea of 349 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: appearing on the BBCO and Morris the same, And I said, 350 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: like who. He said, well, can you imagine Jimmie Hendrix 351 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: appearing on the BBC? And I said, tell me what 352 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: the problem is. He said, well, you know, you're the 353 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: camera and over there is Jimmie Hendrix playing as wonderfully 354 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: as he does. But between the camera and Jimmie Hendrix. 355 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: There are an awful lot of gyrating new biles who 356 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: are in the ways, and that's insulting to Hendrix as 357 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: a man and also more particularly as a musician. And 358 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: for that reason, a great list of musicians said John, 359 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: will not appear on the BBC's your job to get 360 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: them on there without the gyrating new biles. And he 361 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: gave me this extraordinary list. Hendrix was one, Cream was another, 362 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: Frank Zappa was another. There's a story in a half, 363 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: Eric Byrdon and the animals Donovan. Now, at that point 364 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: none of these people had appeared on television on the BBC. 365 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: So we made a film Pink Floyd. It was the 366 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: first time Pink Floyd had he appeared on television. And 367 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: oddly enough I was at school with Roger Waters of 368 00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: Pink Floyd, but he was the only one I knew 369 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: personally what year was this. So John said, well, I 370 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: will make the introductions, you make the film. So I 371 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: said fine. So I went back to the BBC slightly 372 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: riding the crest of a very small wave as a 373 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: result of the Benjamin Britten film, and said, now I'm 374 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: going to make a film called All My Loving which 375 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: is about the Beatles, I said, lying, It wasn't just 376 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: about the Beatles. It was about what that group of 377 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: people represented great musicians, great musicians, but also people who 378 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: were articulate and had something to say and wanted to 379 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: say it clearly and loudly on the BBC. So we 380 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 1: made the film. The BBC absolutely hated it. That was 381 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: predictable to some extent. David Amber wrote me a memo 382 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: which I've still got in which he said, this film 383 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: is a disgrace. Over my dead body, will this film 384 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: ever be shown on the BBC. He was then control 385 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: of the BBC and we were kept waiting for nine months. 386 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: We couldn't get it on the air. We were rescued 387 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: nine months or so later by the new head of music, 388 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: who was a man called John Culture who ran Decca 389 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: Record Company with whom I had worked and have become 390 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: a very good friend. And he looked at the film 391 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: and said, well, we have to get this on. We 392 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: have to get it on peak viewing our So we 393 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: were then taken to see the man who was a 394 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: controller of BBC one, I mean the main channel, who 395 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: said he'd obviously been very well brief because as I 396 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: went in He just waved his hand at me. I 397 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: don't want his discussion. He said, I will trade you 398 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: three fs to two pieces. In other words, if you 399 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: get rid of three f's, I'll let you have to 400 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: show the film. So that was that, and that caused, 401 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: if I may say so, a sensation that film. Now, 402 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: when you say that the BBC didn't want to show it, 403 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: did they not want to show anything on that subject? 404 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: They didn't want to show that. Did they offer you 405 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: any explanation? Nothing on that subject, nothing from that uber, 406 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: not those particular people. What was their reasoning. Their reasoning 407 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: was that popular music on television at that time consisted 408 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: of two shows, one of which was called Jukebox Jury, 409 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: where four people sat in the line and played a 410 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: new piece of music and they had to push a 411 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: button one to five. That was it. And then the 412 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: other thing was I mentioned the Top of the Pops 413 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: where you had all these gyrating new birds and no 414 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: real appreciation of the music itself. And what we had 415 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: presented in all my loving was very articulate. People names 416 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: I mentioned who had a lot to say about the 417 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: world in which they lived. Don't forget that's the time 418 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: of the Vietnam War. And other deeply divisive social issues. 419 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: They wanted to talk about it. They wanted to talk 420 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: about what they they thought their role as musicians was 421 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: in that society, and they weren't going to be shut up. 422 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: And that's what that film managed to express. And who, 423 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: by your estimation, was among the most articulate of the subjects, well, 424 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: I mean the two obvious ones who sweep to minded, 425 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: John Lennon and Paul McCartney. And McCartney had a lot 426 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: to say on that subject. But also the other one, 427 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: from a slightly oblique angle, was Frank Zappa. Now you 428 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: had you had a little bit of a lilt when 429 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: you talked about him before. What was the story with 430 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: Zappa that was amusing or interesting? Well, I mean I 431 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: later made I think the worst film in the entire 432 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: history of the universe, in spite of the fact that 433 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: has a colossal cult following called two hundred Motels. I 434 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: don't regret making Totels, but I mean I had a 435 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,959 Speaker 1: deeply upsetting experience. Not many years ago, the one hundredth 436 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: anniversary of the premier of the Writers Spring caused me 437 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: to be invited to numerous orchestral organizations on the West 438 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: coast of America, mostly in California, which the most auspicious, 439 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: I suppose, was for the music school in Los in 440 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: u c. L A. And what did they perform? Right 441 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: A spring firebird? What did they do well? This was 442 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: a pure lecture. In most of the events, what happened 443 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: was they played bits of Stravinsky in the first half. 444 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: I then talked for twenty minutes, and then they play 445 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: the writer spring. But on this occasion it was just 446 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: purely a lecture, and I rambled on for about an 447 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: hour about Stevinsky and procoffee f and Sakovich and what 448 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: all the great Russian composer had undergone. Brachmaninov had suffered 449 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century, partly as a result of Stalin 450 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: and others. So this was a very somber and serious address. 451 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: I don't think there were too many jokes. There were 452 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: three or four hundred, I can't remember, but that sort 453 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: of size audience. And at the end of the one 454 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: hour lecture, the interlocutor said, looking at the audience, said 455 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: would anybody like to ask Mr Palmer a question? And 456 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: one guy almost in the first row put his hand 457 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: up straight away and he said, yes, sir can you 458 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: tell me what Frank Zapple was? Like? I thought, I've 459 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: just been talking about thirty million dead in the on 460 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: all he wants to know Stalin tortured rockman enough and 461 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: you want to hear about it? Yeah, exactly, Well, don't 462 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: you go with the huskies? Go? Don't you eat that 463 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: yellow snow? I remember from Zapples from my part smoking days. 464 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: But when you've ex am in the world's the universes 465 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: of classical the late grape maestros and composers of the 466 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: repertoire and popular music, you know, there's nothing in my 467 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: mind like popular music in terms of its ephemeral nature. 468 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: There's many people who come up and they have that opportunity, 469 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: they take the stage, they have that moment to capture 470 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: the world's attention, and they go away. Most of them 471 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: don't make it. Most of them don't go to Mount 472 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: Olympus if you will. And the ones who do. I'm 473 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: wondering what do Stravinsky and Wagner and the Beatles and 474 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: the who have in common, meaning those that endure, What 475 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: do they have in common? Is it the same in 476 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: popular music as it is for classical music. Well I 477 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: can answer the question. I think slightly a tan genital way. Initially, 478 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: the thing that attracts me to all of these people 479 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: that I've made films about, whether you're talking about Maria 480 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: Carlos or Margot Fonte, Noor Stravinsky that you mentioned, or 481 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: even the Beatles, there's one element which they've all got, 482 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: which is courage, whether you're talking about intellectual courage, or 483 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: emotional courage, or artistic courage, or in some cases physical courage. 484 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 1: I remember Margot Fontein trying to explain to me one 485 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: day when she later in her life, when she was 486 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,719 Speaker 1: just on tour as a solo star artist, sometimes with area, 487 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: sometimes not with neuro She'd say, you know, we'd go 488 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: to a new theater which we didn't know it's a 489 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: wooden stage, fine, but would moves and sometimes you have 490 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: little nails sticking up out of the wood. Now, if 491 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: they have not prepared the stage properly, or even if 492 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: they have not swept the stage properly, I'm standing in 493 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: the side of the stage and I'm hearing my music 494 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: coming up, and then I hear my cue and I 495 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: whoops off I go. If I land on one foot 496 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: and that foot slips or gets on a nail because 497 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: the stage has not been properly prepared. My career is over. 498 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: So in that single moment, there is an act of 499 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: physical courage which is beyond most of us. And I 500 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: think all the people that I've dealt with exhibit that 501 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: courage in one form or another, and that's something I'm 502 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: in all of attracted to want to celebrate. I mean, 503 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: I've sometimes been accused of making films where all I've 504 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: chosen to do is any great if you see what 505 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean big film I made about Menu 506 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: and got me into a hell of a lot of trouble. 507 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: You're referring to the great violinist yr Whodi. Menu went correct? Correct? 508 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: So you did? You did a film about Menu went 509 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: and what happened? Well, in the end he didn't approve it. 510 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: Why Well, in his autobiography he makes two for me 511 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: or three fatal admissions. The one is he repeats over 512 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: and over again, and this became a kind of mantra 513 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: with him that I had this wonderfully idyllic childhood and 514 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: I grew up thinking the world was lovely. Secondly, that 515 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: if you look in the autobiography as published, you can 516 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,959 Speaker 1: find no reference to his first wife. If you know, 517 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: her name was Nicholas, you can find Nicolas Nola, but 518 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: not menu In Nola. That was an interesting admission. And 519 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: the third thing was that I became very puzzled by 520 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: the fact that if you asked man in Street, well 521 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: you who he was still very active man in Street? 522 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: Who's the most famous violinist alive? Most of them, especially 523 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: in England, would say you who him? Anuin He was 524 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: an extraordinary man. I'm not that if you asked musicians 525 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: who is the greatest violinist of our time, I'm not 526 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: sure you who he would get in the top fifty. 527 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: So where was this? Yeah? So where was this disparity? 528 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: What was the problem. I went to a particular concert 529 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: where he and the leader of the particular orchestra he 530 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: was playing with played a Mozart double concerto. He was 531 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: making lots of wrong notes. I think he was almost 532 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: making it up as he goes along. The other guy, 533 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: who the leader of the orchestra, was of course absolutely 534 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: spot on. But your eye and your ear went to Yehudi. 535 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: Didn't matter who the other guy was, You went to Yehudi. 536 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: But the thing that upset you who he was? That 537 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: we found he had two sisters, one of whom was Hepsiba, 538 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: who was a very good pianist, and she had died 539 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: of cancer, and I discovered that he hadn't gone to 540 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: her funeral, and in fact, he never mentioned it. Then 541 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: I discovered that in his autobiography he talks about playing 542 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: for displaced persons after the war, and through my Benjamin 543 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: Britain connection, I knew and I was certain that Britain 544 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: and Menuin had actually gone to play in the newly 545 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: liberated concentration camps, not displaced persons, the actual concentration camps. There. 546 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: They were in bergen Belson months or so after it 547 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: was liberated. Now, Yehudi means the Jew, so you can 548 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: imagine the shock that that had on him. But that's 549 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: why he didn't mention it. But I thought it was 550 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: important to try and understand the man who was in 551 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: front of us. But then the fatal observation was to me, 552 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: it was the fatal observation was that he had had 553 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: this happy childhood. His two sisters, Hepster was dead, died 554 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: of cancy, had another sister called Yalta who was the 555 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: little one. And we'd tracked down Yalta and we interviewed her, 556 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: and she told a totally different stories. She said, our 557 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: childhood was a nightmare. You know, we were locked in cupboards, 558 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: We were prevented from meeting other children because they weren't 559 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: good enough for us. It was a horror story, she said, 560 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: And she articulated this quite extensively. And ye who he 561 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: had said, he didn't know that. He knew that we 562 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: had interviewed his younger sister, but he obviously didn't know 563 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: what she'd said. But he kept saying. At the end 564 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: of the filming, I'm going to persuade my mother, who 565 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: is only I think, to allow you to film her 566 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: and me together. Are you happy about that? She lived 567 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: in Los Gatos in California, So I said fine. So 568 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: we dutifully trooped off to Lost Catos to film you HOODI. 569 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: And there there this midget who was five foot arrived 570 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: wearing black glasses, black clothes, looking really menacing, and she 571 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 1: invited into her house for tea, and before anything had 572 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: got going, luckily the camera was running by now she 573 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: began to tell Yahudi off in front of us, don't 574 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: do that. That's very silly. What who do you think 575 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: you are? And you just saw it in one. So 576 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: our portrait of Rhodimnuin was, if I say Watts and all, 577 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't there to diminish him in any way whatsoever. 578 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: It was to celebrate the man. How had he managed 579 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: to do this in this background? Margaret Fontein was the same. 580 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: How did it come about that the most one of 581 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: the most famous ballerinas of her time finished up in 582 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: a mud hut in Panama when there was no water, 583 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: no no running water, no telephone, nothing. He was living 584 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: off cornflicts. How did that happen? And we have to 585 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: try and understand it? Director Tony Palmer, If you're enjoying 586 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: this conversation, be sure to follow Here's the Thing on 587 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 588 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. When we come back, Tony Palmer discusses 589 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: his seven hour and forty five minute film about Richard Wagner. 590 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: It starred Richard Burton, Lawrence Olivier and Vanessa Redgrave. The 591 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: l A Time has called it one of the most 592 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: beautiful films ever made. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening 593 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing. When you make over on films 594 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: in the course of a career, there are operat tunities 595 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: to experiment with different styles of storytelling, and while Tony 596 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: Palmer has certainly been adventurous, one thing he decided he 597 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: would not use in his films his voiceover narration. The 598 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: story has to speak for itself. I mean this My job, 599 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: as it were, is to present the evidence and let 600 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: you make up your mind. I mean, at no point 601 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: in the menu and film, since we talked about it, 602 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: does anybody say anything derogatory of menu in other than 603 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: the eyewitnesses as it were. And then at the end 604 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: you have to decide, you know, was this guy's goody 605 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: two shoes as he just hiding really important moments in 606 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: his past. It makes your job quite difficult. But I 607 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: mean I I don't only make films about music, but 608 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: I mean the music films I've made, I would consider 609 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: the music as an essential narrative point part of the film. 610 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: The music drives the story forward. I mean rachaman and 611 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: Off since you mentioned him, I mean Rachamanov provided me 612 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: with plenty of musical evidence for that actually happened in 613 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: his life, and so I was able to construct a 614 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: film entirely around pieces of music. I mean a lot 615 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: of people talking and a lot of I hope, very 616 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: pretty shots of where he lived and what he did, 617 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: especially in Russia. But it's it's it's essentially the music 618 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: is the driving force, the narrative of the film that 619 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: makes it. It's it's not easy, it's difficult, but I'm 620 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: a better editor. I think that I am a director, 621 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: and I mean I can edit to our film in 622 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: ten fourteen days simply because it's very clear in my 623 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 1: mind what I want to do. Because I could sing 624 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: most of whatever composer I'm working on, I could sing 625 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: the music backwards. So when you're making a film that 626 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: seven hours and forty five minutes, the Wagner film, does 627 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: the length of the film present itself prior to the making. 628 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: So for example, now you do a podcast for like 629 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: Netflix or I Heart of Someone, and they'll say to 630 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: you literally, they'll say, we only break even after five episodes. 631 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: We don't make any money the graviest episode six, seven, 632 00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: and eight, and we don't care how you have, how 633 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: loaded it needs to be, how much you have to 634 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: stretch it out, how much you have to kind of 635 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: pump oh, you know, very true, And they'll say, we 636 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: need an eight episodes shure, even if there is an 637 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: eight episodes there in the story. Now in your case, 638 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: tell us about the length and the scope of your 639 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: incredible project about er Well. I mean, if you're if 640 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: you're dumb enough or stupid enough to make films about composers, 641 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: I've made a few. Then as far as the nineteenth 642 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: century is concerned, the shadow of Wagner hangs over everything. 643 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: You can't avoid it. At some point, you've got to 644 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: face up to it and do it. Wagner, of course, 645 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: is immensely complicated because of what happened to his music 646 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: in the third right, among others, and so that makes 647 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: trying to find a perspective on the story of Wagner difficult. 648 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,919 Speaker 1: The other thing which is difficult is that I think 649 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: at the time that we made the film, which was 650 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: for the hundred anniversary of his death, we reckon that 651 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: there were more books about Wagner than any other person 652 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: who had ever lived, including Jesus Christ and including Napoleon. 653 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: So you're suddenly faced with this mountain of information. When 654 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: we were planning the film about Vargner, we didn't really 655 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: know that it would be either that short or that long. 656 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 1: We just knew it was a big subject would require 657 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: big film, and so we were lucky in that I 658 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: had already been approached by Vittorio Seraro, great Oscar winning cameraman. 659 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: Have you got a project that would interest me? Yes, sir, 660 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: I have. It's called I'm there, he said. So we 661 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: got Victoria's Steraro straight away. Richard Burton, oddly enough, was 662 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: not the first choice. It was Albert Finnie, who I 663 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: had worked with before, wouldn't give me a start date, 664 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: and of course we were under some pressure to have 665 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: a start date that we could stick to. And in 666 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: fact that the whole film of seven hours forty five minutes, 667 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: it only took seven months to film. I mean it 668 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: wasn't long, and about three months then to edit. But 669 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: going back to the main subject. When we started on 670 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: the project, I mentioned this chat earlier deck John Culshaw. 671 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: John Culshaw had recorded many of Wagner operas, and he 672 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: took me to meet Wagner's grandson, Wolfgang. And Wolfgang and 673 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: I got very drunk with John Culshaw and Volkang's wife. 674 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: I think he was then his mistress, but became his 675 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: wife at a hotel in Bustledorff. And at the end 676 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: of this long drunken lunch, he said, making this film, 677 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: you'll find two important pieces of advice. He said. The 678 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: one is that as you go on, you were discovered 679 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: that everybody, without exception, knows exactly where my grandfather was 680 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: on the third Thursday of the fourth month of eighteen 681 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: seventy two. He said, you will even find and it 682 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: turned out to be true. You will even find somebody 683 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: who knows how many eggs he had for breakfast and 684 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: how long he cooked the eggs for. That was turned 685 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: out to be absolutely true. But then the other thing 686 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: he said was you have to understand about my grandfather 687 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: that if he were alive today, we're talking about the 688 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: end of He said, it's the only one place he 689 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 1: would want to work. He'd go to Hollywood straight away. 690 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: Hollywood all has all the technical needs and money and 691 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: so on and so on. He'd be straight in there 692 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: in Hollywood. I think that would have been a shock 693 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: for Hollywood. But nonetheless, those two pieces of advice were kept. 694 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: They would like Manchester. They kept me going and kept 695 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: me sane all the time. Richard Burton was very confused 696 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: about why I'd chosen him. What role do Burton and 697 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: Olivier and Vanessa Redgrave play if you have no announcers, 698 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: what do they do with their hosts on camera? No, 699 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: it's a drama. It's not a documentary. It's a drama. 700 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: So Richard Richard Burton plays Richard Wagner, Vanessa Redgrave plays Kozma, 701 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: his wife, and the Three Great Nights Olivia, Richardson and Gilgud. 702 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: They played the three Ministers of Luding, the second of 703 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: Bavaria and Ludwing the second later in life, was Wagner's 704 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: principal patron. In fact, the famous Ring Cycle is dedicated 705 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: to my co creator, Ludwiger Bavarious. An extraordinary situation. Once 706 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: Olivia was on board, of course, everybody wanted to be 707 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: in the film because they wanted to be with Olivia 708 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: or they wanted to be with Burton. Richard got a 709 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: bit annoyed by this, and it said to me one day, 710 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: said why the hell did you choose me? And I said, well, Richard, Firstly, 711 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: you're both called Richard, how about that? Secondly, you talked 712 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: too much, how about that? Thirdly you definitely drink too much. 713 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: And fourthly, you have an indescribable charm, as I'm sure 714 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: the original Wagner did, otherwise he couldn't have got away 715 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: with what he did. And lastly, I said, don't take 716 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: this the wrong way. You both have a strong element 717 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: of genius and that I want to celebrate. I mean, 718 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: the crucial point about the Wagner film is that it 719 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: explores as a drama written by a very good English 720 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: dramatist called Charles Wood who wrote Charge the Light Brigade 721 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: you might know who actually wrote the Beatles film Help 722 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: is that it explores what was the politics of Germany 723 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: at that time, in the middle of the nineteenth century, 724 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: and Wagner was absolutely determined to unify Germany, to make 725 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: it a power in the land. And having failed to 726 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: do that by burning down an opera house, which is 727 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: what he did, or he was involved in the burning 728 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: down of an opera, then issuing endless pamphlets about this, 729 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: that and everything you ever heard of, finally thought, well, 730 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: there any way to do it is to write a 731 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: huge music drama, the ring Cycle for for operas, because 732 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: that will show them, that will show them what the 733 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: real purpose of being a united Germany is. And of 734 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: course that led to Pitland, that made it very, very complicated. 735 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: But I think that the most telling image in the 736 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: whole film. This was a guy who had wanted notices 737 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: published all over Germany, dead or alive, Wagner five dollars. 738 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: That was certainly a part of it. He was on 739 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: the run from creditors, from political adversaries, from people who 740 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: wanted to do him down. Finally, in August eighteen seventy six, 741 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: this time, and little man, he was only about five 742 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: ft three or five ft four, stood on the top 743 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: of a hill behind which was this theater he had 744 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: built with Ludwig's money, the theater in Byroid, and the 745 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: crowned heads of Europe came up to say hello, Mr Bagnets, 746 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: and honor to meet you. Can you imagine an artist 747 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: sent to stage greeting the crown heads of Europe. I 748 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: mean that that's never happened, since it probably happened a 749 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: bit in the time of the Greeks, but that's it. 750 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: This was an artist, a musician, a composer, and yet 751 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: he was sent to stage, not all these conniving, mendacious 752 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,359 Speaker 1: politicians courtiers. Now you spent your entire career over there. 753 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: If you were, you never lived in America, you never 754 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: lived in Los Angeles and made films in California. Well, 755 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: I did a huge series called All You Need Is Love, 756 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: The History of American Popular Music, where I mean I 757 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: was camped in the United States for a year tracking 758 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: down everybody. But you never wanted to relocate here and 759 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: make film. You've made documentary films and narrative films. You 760 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,720 Speaker 1: never wanted to become just a regular filmmaker shooting narrative 761 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: films over here and make I think I would want 762 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: to say that I never had the opportunity. Nobody ever 763 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: asked me. I mean, I just kind of plodded on 764 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: doing my own things. I mean, I've worked at the BBC. 765 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,319 Speaker 1: As I mentioned, I left the BBC after about five 766 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,239 Speaker 1: years because I felt it was very restricting. And I've 767 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: been a freelance ever since. And as you mentioned, I 768 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: mean I've made rather a lot of films. I mean, 769 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: I mean about a hundred and twenty films entirely as 770 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: a freelance, trying to find the money than doing it, 771 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: than getting it on television, and so on and so 772 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: on and so on. I'm a one man band, a 773 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: one man band. Indeed. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, 774 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: Kerry Donahue, and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 775 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you 776 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio