WEBVTT - To Catch A Fascist: An Interview with Christopher Mathias

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<v Speaker 1>Wolz Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>your occasional host, Molly Conger, and today we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>be talking about something that is happening here, doxing Nazis. Specifically,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking to Christmathias about his new book, To Catch

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<v Speaker 2>a Fascist, The Fight to expose the Radical Right. Chris,

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<v Speaker 2>thanks for coming on today.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, Molly, It's such a pleasure to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so excited to talk about this book. You sent

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<v Speaker 2>me a copy of it recently. I don't think I

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<v Speaker 2>remembered until I was reading it and I talked to

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<v Speaker 2>you while you were writing it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, yes you did. Yeah, yeah, you're one of

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<v Speaker 1>the many, many people I talked to, and you are

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<v Speaker 1>quoted in the book. In fact, I can't remember if

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<v Speaker 1>you told it to me or if I cite it

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<v Speaker 1>from somewhere else. But you once compared the research that

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<v Speaker 1>goes into doxing unmasking Nazis to basically investigating your Instagram account,

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<v Speaker 1>which I thought was an amazing comparison, because you're basically saying, like,

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<v Speaker 1>this type of work is accessible if you've done that

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<v Speaker 1>type of slew thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is not something I'm admitting to doing. I got

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<v Speaker 2>brazy about my exes. I'm just saying it is something

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<v Speaker 2>many women are very good at.

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<v Speaker 1>It, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and they don't realize it's a transferable skill.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>But for those who don't know, christ Rhramathias has been

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<v Speaker 2>covering the far right for more than a decade, right, Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you're with Huffington Post for a long time, and you've

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<v Speaker 2>been independent for a couple of years.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So I was at huff Post for like almost

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen years, and about ten of those I know, it's wild,

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<v Speaker 1>and ten of those years I was covering the far right,

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<v Speaker 1>which is how I ended up in Charlottesville in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen for Unite the Right rally, which is something Molly

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<v Speaker 1>and I have talked a lot about before. And yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>after I got back from Charlottesville, my editor at the

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<v Speaker 1>time was like, this is your beat now covering the

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<v Speaker 1>far right. So I was kind of like among this

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<v Speaker 1>like initial through of like digital media journalists who suddenly

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<v Speaker 1>found themselves on the like the right wing extremism beat.

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<v Speaker 1>And pretty quickly, you know, I realized while I was

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<v Speaker 1>trying to unmask people in the far right, that there

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<v Speaker 1>were already people doing that work and they were anti

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<v Speaker 1>fascist activists.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so to prepare for today, I listened to

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of interviews you've done about the book so far.

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<v Speaker 2>It comes out first week of February.

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<v Speaker 1>February third. Yeah, We're we're close. Yeah. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I was listening to those interviews, and I was thinking about,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this is a different audience, Like you don't

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<v Speaker 2>need to explain to people who listened to it could

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<v Speaker 2>happen here what antifa is or what docing is. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think the book very delicately and unapologetically explains

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<v Speaker 2>those things to people who might be afraid of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean that was the entire intent of the book,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm so glad you picked up on that. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I think I kind of imagined writing this book for

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<v Speaker 1>my parents, for like kind of you know, boomer liberals,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will, or centrists and other people just I

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<v Speaker 1>think that have a lot of misapprehensions about antifa, understandably,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, the kind of the goal of the

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<v Speaker 1>book was to to demystify what antifa is, explain it

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<v Speaker 1>to a wider audience, and to make kind of more

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<v Speaker 1>radical politics that Antifa represents more palatable to a wider audience.

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<v Speaker 1>And the way I tried to do that was to

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<v Speaker 1>make the book a bit of a thriller so that

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<v Speaker 1>was accessible, and make it into like a spy narrative.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm hoping that the very kind of average reader

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<v Speaker 1>will be able to dive into this and come out

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<v Speaker 1>understanding more radical leftist politics that maybe wasn't accessible to

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<v Speaker 1>them before.

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<v Speaker 2>That's such a hard needle to threat, because like, I

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<v Speaker 2>could give this book to my dad, right right, but

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<v Speaker 2>I also enjoyed reading it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yay, good for the listener.

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<v Speaker 2>You should go out and get this. It's not just

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<v Speaker 2>for your dads. You will like it to the cold open, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like the introductory chapter starts sort of in media res

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<v Speaker 2>with your framework of the book. Right, this Vincent Washington,

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<v Speaker 2>this infiltrator inside Patriot Front. And the thing is I

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<v Speaker 2>know about Vincent Washington. I read the leaks that Vincent

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<v Speaker 2>was responsible for. I was actually the one who told

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas Rousseau in person about the leak.

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<v Speaker 1>What I didn't know that book?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, for the listener, Vincent Washington is not a

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<v Speaker 2>real person. Surely is a real person, but that's not

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<v Speaker 2>his real name, yes, right, So within Patriot Front they

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<v Speaker 2>all get a pseudonym and then their last name is

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<v Speaker 2>like their state. So Vincent Washington was a man whose

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<v Speaker 2>name is not Vincent, who might be from Washington, and

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<v Speaker 2>he infiltrated Patriot Front and he leaked all of their

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<v Speaker 2>rocket chats. And the day that leak was published, it

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<v Speaker 2>was January twenty first, twenty twenty two. Yes, it was

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<v Speaker 2>the day of the March for Life. Yes, So Patriot

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<v Speaker 2>Front was in Washington, DC, and I had a suspicion

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<v Speaker 2>that Patriot Front would be there. They don't announce that

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of ahead of time, but I was pretty

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<v Speaker 2>sure they were gonna be there. So I went to Washington,

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<v Speaker 2>d C. And we were standing outside the National Archives.

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas Rousseau had a little bullhorn. He had like twenty

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<v Speaker 2>or thirty guys and the little matching fits, and they

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<v Speaker 2>were so tickled with themselves. They were so tickled. People

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<v Speaker 2>were just falling all over themselves because these like scary

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<v Speaker 2>Nazis were on the street. And I actually I have

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<v Speaker 2>a video. I'll embed it in the final.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, Molly, hey, guys, your rocket chat just

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<v Speaker 1>got leads on DIA secrets.

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<v Speaker 2>Unicorn Ryan just dropped your rocket Chat everything, all your dms,

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<v Speaker 2>all your dms, the Matadeia.

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<v Speaker 1>The video We're just gonna make fun of you, the

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<v Speaker 1>videos that.

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<v Speaker 2>You send your network leaders. Those all have Metadeia and

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<v Speaker 2>Unicorn Ryan is posting them right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Holy shit, Molly, how did I not ask you about

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<v Speaker 1>this for the book? I could have put this in there.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 2>It was incredible because, you know, Thomas Rousseau later was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like not a big He looked scared.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, he looks scared.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like I know about Vincent, but seeing the

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<v Speaker 2>story from his side of things was so different. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I use these leaks all the time, but I,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, never get to know about the leaker.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. So again, this

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of my goal for the book was that

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<v Speaker 1>these kind of anti fascist spies, and I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>most Americans don't know that Antifa had so many spies

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<v Speaker 1>over the last ten years that were infiltrating these groups.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they were the hidden hand behind thousands of

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<v Speaker 1>news stories because they collected all of this invaluable intelligence.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, hundreds and hundreds of gigabytes of private messages

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<v Speaker 1>that these white supremacists were sending to each other, which

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<v Speaker 1>then were posted on a database on Unicorn Riot, which

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<v Speaker 1>you know, wonderful researchers like yourself and other people used

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<v Speaker 1>to mine for clues and details that they could use

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<v Speaker 1>to identify all of these previously p sseunonymous Nazis. So

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<v Speaker 1>for example, you know, and I wish I could have

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<v Speaker 1>seen the look on Thomas's face. I can't wait to

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<v Speaker 1>see that video. But yeah, I mean, like they released

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<v Speaker 1>I believe it was like four hundred gigabytes worth of

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<v Speaker 1>rocket Chat messages and you know, videos and photos and.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff with metadata still attached.

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<v Speaker 1>To them, exactly with metadata still attached to them, which

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<v Speaker 1>we'll get to in a second. By the way, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a good story about the metadata. But you know, ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>that data would contribute to do saying unmasking I think

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<v Speaker 1>about eighty members of Patriot Front, which is just remarkable,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think, you know, part of the story I

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<v Speaker 1>was trying to tell was that these anonymous anti fascists

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<v Speaker 1>who are doing this work, you know, anonymously, like they're

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<v Speaker 1>not doing it for acclaim or glory. They're doing it

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<v Speaker 1>because they see it as a form of community self defense.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know what they were doing, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>think outstripped the efforts of major media, news organizations, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>academic institutions, civil rights organizations, oh, no doubt, law enforcement definitely,

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<v Speaker 1>like they were doing more work to destabilize and destroy

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<v Speaker 1>far right groups. Then I would argue really anyone else.

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<v Speaker 2>And then this subsequent work that builds off of that

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<v Speaker 2>by civil rights groups filing these like Large Clan Act lawsuits.

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<v Speaker 2>Those lawsuits don't exist without these leaks. Siins v. Kessler

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't exist without these leaks. The three lawsuits against Patriot

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<v Speaker 2>Front don't exist without these.

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<v Speaker 1>Leaks, Yes, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And I've been thinking a lot about this this week,

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<v Speaker 2>right because it was the anniversary of Richard Spencer getting

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<v Speaker 2>punched in the face five years ago. Happy anniversary, Happy

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<v Speaker 2>anniversary to those who celebrate. And that was a beautiful moment.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think we can all agree that it's so

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<v Speaker 2>funny to watch Richard Spencer get punched in the face.

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<v Speaker 2>But every year you see people say and that's what

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<v Speaker 2>stopped him, and he was never heard from again and

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<v Speaker 2>he shut up forever after that.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, that's not true. That's not true at.

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<v Speaker 2>All, Like I love I love the guy that punched

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<v Speaker 2>him in the face, but that didn't end.

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<v Speaker 1>It, Yes, exactly, an infiltrator did. An infiltrator did, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think again, you know, kind of the goal of

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<v Speaker 1>the book is that most Antifa in the public imagination

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<v Speaker 1>is most often associated with Nazi punching, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for good reason, Like most people learned about Antifa in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty seventeen from videos like the video of Richard Spencer

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<v Speaker 1>getting punched. It's so interesting to look back and realize

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<v Speaker 1>that no one in America knew what the fuck Antifa

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<v Speaker 1>was before twenty seventeen, and then by the end of

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<v Speaker 1>that year, everyone had heard that word or knew that word.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the boogieman.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was the boogiey Man, and it was added

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<v Speaker 1>to the Webster Dictionary. Oxford Dictionary shortlisted it for word

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<v Speaker 1>of the Year. Like it's a remarkable climb for you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a piece of language, a word. But the like viral

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<v Speaker 1>videos that catapulted that word into the like lexicon kind

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<v Speaker 1>of obscured the bulk of the work that Antifa was doing,

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<v Speaker 1>which was espionage and intelligence gathering, and kind of like

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<v Speaker 1>the creation of this remarkable underground in formal intelligence agency

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<v Speaker 1>that like just completely fucked up so many fascist groups,

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<v Speaker 1>and like, you know, at the end of twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 1>Spencer famously said Antifa is winning, and he was referring

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<v Speaker 1>not only to getting punched everywhere he went, but to

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<v Speaker 1>these very efforts to identify all of his followers who

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<v Speaker 1>knew that if their Nazism was public, they wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>able to like operate in public life, they wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>able to hold down a job, and so on and so.

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<v Speaker 2>Forth, Because I guess both the Nazi punching and the

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<v Speaker 2>Nazi docsing they are different means to a similar end,

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<v Speaker 2>which is to enact a consequence, right, so that if

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to be a Nazi in public, there's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a fucking consequence, whether that means you get

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<v Speaker 2>decked in the jaw, or it means all of your

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<v Speaker 2>neighbors know what you said online, your mom knows what

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<v Speaker 2>you said online, like people know who you are.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly the way I always describe it is the

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<v Speaker 1>digital equivalent of ripping the white hood off of a klansman.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, back in the eighties and nineties, anti racist

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<v Speaker 1>activists like with groups like Anti Racist Action, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>would post flyers in neighborhoods that said meet your local Nazi, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And what they were doing was not only warning the

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<v Speaker 1>community that that guy down the block is liable to

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<v Speaker 1>commit violence against people you know and love, but like

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<v Speaker 1>you were getting at, they were creating a social cost

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<v Speaker 1>for being a fascist. They're basically leveraging an existing societal

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<v Speaker 1>taboo against explicit white supremacy and fascism to ensure a consequence.

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<v Speaker 1>It basically says, it tells people, if you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>join one of these groups, we're going to name and

0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.440
<v Speaker 1>shame you. You're going to lose your job, your girlfriend's

0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.520
<v Speaker 1>going to dump you, you might lose your apartment, your family,

0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:46.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, might not want to talk to you anymore,

0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.000
<v Speaker 1>like you're going to be a pariah. And I think

0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.040
<v Speaker 1>it was really effective. I mean, you know, obviously, the

0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.760
<v Speaker 1>animating question of my book, of course, is what happens

0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.800
<v Speaker 1>when that taboo starts to disappear.

0:11:58.040 --> 0:11:59.360
<v Speaker 2>But it's not gone yet.

0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:00.120
<v Speaker 1>It's not gone.

0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Some of the other interviews I was looking at, people

0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.600
<v Speaker 2>are saying, well, is there value in this anymore? Because

0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:06.599
<v Speaker 2>you can work for the state department and be a

0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Nazi now, right, you can do the White House social

0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:10.480
<v Speaker 2>media be a Nazi now Like, is there still any

0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.480
<v Speaker 2>value in this? And I think the answer is obviously yes. Yeah,

0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.400
<v Speaker 2>they wouldn't wear masks if they didn't have to wear masks, yes, right,

0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Like some of them aren't mask off quote unquote, but

0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.079
<v Speaker 2>like not all of them. Patriot Front still marches in masks.

0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Ice agents still abduct children in masks. They're covering their

0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.200
<v Speaker 2>faces because they know what they're doing is wrong.

0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.600
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly, And I think it's also as much of

0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.920
<v Speaker 1>a mask off moment as we might be living in

0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.800
<v Speaker 1>in some ways. You know, this act of research and

0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:41.920
<v Speaker 1>identifying the threat is still so important because it's you know,

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.720
<v Speaker 1>preserving that societal taboo. It's still saying that that social

0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.880
<v Speaker 1>cost is something we still want to preserve, and it

0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.200
<v Speaker 1>is you know, I think very interesting that the anti

0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 1>fascist work now is kind of pivoting towards identifying ICE

0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 1>agents and MAGA, and the Trump and administration is horrified

0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.840
<v Speaker 1>of this tactic of identifying ICE agents, and for good reason,

0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.960
<v Speaker 1>because you know the story I try to tell my book, like,

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.959
<v Speaker 1>this tactic played a really big part in destroying fascist groups.

0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.120
<v Speaker 1>They know that it could destroy their ethnic cleansing project.

0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.040
<v Speaker 1>And when you look at the polls like since Reine Good,

0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 1>the favorability for ICE is just plummeted, and the support

0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:30.000
<v Speaker 1>for slogans like abolish ICE have skyrocketed. So like, that

0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.560
<v Speaker 1>societal taboo against kind of white SUPREMACISMSM right, that's being

0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 1>displayed by ICE is definitely still there.

0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.360
<v Speaker 2>And you ground this sort of in the history too

0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.120
<v Speaker 2>in the book, in the chapter about sort of the

0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 2>history of unmasking, whether that's with digital docsing or you know,

0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.480
<v Speaker 2>identifying members of the Klan, there was still a social

0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.120
<v Speaker 2>cost of being identified as a Klansman in the nineteen twenties. Yeah,

0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 2>like there was there was no social taboo against being

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:56.920
<v Speaker 2>racist in the twenties, but there was a social cost

0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.200
<v Speaker 2>being identified as a Klansman. And I think we're we

0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 2>find ourselves in the same unfortunate place.

0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally, I mean, and honestly, that was one of

0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.839
<v Speaker 1>my favorite parts about researching the book was diving into

0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:12.520
<v Speaker 1>the efforts to unmask the clans. Obviously there were efforts

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:14.840
<v Speaker 1>to unmask the first Klan, but you know, one of

0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.360
<v Speaker 1>my favorite stories about unmasking the Second Clan took place

0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.960
<v Speaker 1>in Buffalo, New York. And there was actually a very

0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.840
<v Speaker 1>large clan chapter in Buffalo. And you know, the Second

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.640
<v Speaker 1>Clan wasn't confined to the South. It was everywhere. It

0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.800
<v Speaker 1>was in the northeast and the midwest, right, and it

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:38.440
<v Speaker 1>was animated not only by anti black racism and anti Semitism,

0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:43.840
<v Speaker 1>but also by anti Catholicism. They were really angry at

0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:48.760
<v Speaker 1>this new wave of immigrants from Eastern and southern Europe.

0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.160
<v Speaker 2>They didn't allow Catholics in until the seventies. They had

0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.120
<v Speaker 2>to have a big summit about it. Yes, yeah, yes,

0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.440
<v Speaker 2>when they decided that Catholics are white, Yes exactly.

0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:57.680
<v Speaker 1>And this is I mean, it's just it's so much

0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.080
<v Speaker 1>to unpack because like obviously, like my family's Catholic, and

0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.240
<v Speaker 1>I enjoy all of the privilege of being white. But

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 1>like you know, back then, like you know, Catholics were

0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 1>you know this other.

0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.760
<v Speaker 2>You had a dual loyalty to this mysterious king.

0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly. So at any rate, the Klan in Buffalo

0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.880
<v Speaker 1>is really big. And you know, in one night they

0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.320
<v Speaker 1>even have this elaborate cross burning ceremony where eight hundred

0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.400
<v Speaker 1>people take the oath for the Klan. The mayor of Buffalo, though,

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:31.600
<v Speaker 1>is Catholic and forms a coalition with you know, Black

0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Buffalonians and Jewish Buffalonians, and the mayor ends up enlisting

0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 1>a spy to go undercover into the clan. One night,

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:46.000
<v Speaker 1>the clan's secret headquarters in Buffalo are ransacked, broken into,

0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:51.560
<v Speaker 1>and ransacked, and suddenly this list of the clan's membership

0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.120
<v Speaker 1>ends up in the hands of the mayor. The mayor

0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 1>has makes some like deft denials of any involvement, but

0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.240
<v Speaker 1>says that he's going to post the lists downtown. The

0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.840
<v Speaker 1>list is posted downtown, so many people show up to

0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 1>look at the list to see who among their neighbors

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 1>is in the clan that they end up having to

0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.280
<v Speaker 1>move the list I believe, to a warehouse to fit

0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.640
<v Speaker 1>all the people so that they could form a line.

0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.400
<v Speaker 1>And then in the ensuing weeks and months, clan owned

0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:24.240
<v Speaker 1>businesses are boycotted and vandalized. Clansmen turn up to their

0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:29.120
<v Speaker 1>jobs only to learn that they've been fired, and before

0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.760
<v Speaker 1>long the klan just completely falls apart. And interestingly enough,

0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.920
<v Speaker 1>clan headquarters down in Georgia heard about what was happening

0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.400
<v Speaker 1>in Buffalo and was really alarmed by it, so they

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.840
<v Speaker 1>send an investigator to Buffalo to figure out who the

0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:47.200
<v Speaker 1>spy is. They figure out who the spy is, and

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.360
<v Speaker 1>they get in a shootout and they both die. Jesus Christ,

0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 1>which like underscores you know, the stakes of this work sometime.

0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Right, which is why you know the Richard Spencer puncher

0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 2>and the infiltrators they do their best to stay in honan,

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.960
<v Speaker 2>miss because the steaks are lethal, yeah, right, like they

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.040
<v Speaker 2>will kill you back. Yes, these organizations can't survive sunshine

0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.760
<v Speaker 2>and they're so aware of that that. Yeah, people have

0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 2>been killed for this.

0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:25.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely. You and I have both faced our share

0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:30.719
<v Speaker 1>of harassment and stuff. But there's older tales of you know,

0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.880
<v Speaker 1>anti racist action. Back in the nineties, two of its members,

0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:39.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, anti racist skinheads, were in Nevada, lured out

0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:44.679
<v Speaker 1>to the desert by Nazis under false pretenses, and executed

0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:45.640
<v Speaker 1>in the desert.

0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>It was fourth of July weekend, right, Yes, we still

0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 2>honor them on the fourth of July exactly.

0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Their names are escaping me right.

0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.600
<v Speaker 2>Now, Spitting Newborn and Daniel Shrsey.

0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:59.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And there is a fantastic Orlando Weekly feature article

0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.359
<v Speaker 1>about I Believe Spit that I think is one of

0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.919
<v Speaker 1>the best pieces I've read in a long time that

0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:07.440
<v Speaker 1>maybe we can put in the notes. I think people

0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 1>would really enjoy.

0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:09.879
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And you.

0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Know, and then there's more recent examples of that too.

0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, over the last five years, there was three

0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 1>members of the Base, which is like a neo Nazi organization. Obviously,

0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:20.760
<v Speaker 1>I love that your listeners know all this.

0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.240
<v Speaker 2>By the way, what they could use the recap.

0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, but know who these groups are at least,

0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.439
<v Speaker 1>but they were arrested for conspiring to kidnap and murder

0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.720
<v Speaker 1>to anti fascist activists in Georgia.

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.359
<v Speaker 2>It was a couple living in a kind of remote

0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.359
<v Speaker 2>area and they had a very detailed plan to burn

0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.160
<v Speaker 2>down their home and like kill them in their beds

0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.560
<v Speaker 2>and kill their pets. And I mean it was Yeah,

0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.440
<v Speaker 2>if not for the FBI agent who was their friend,

0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:47.800
<v Speaker 2>that couple would have been killed.

0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, it's it's really wild to consider.

0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.800
<v Speaker 2>The FBI agent was friends with the Nazis. I should

0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.919
<v Speaker 2>clarify there is almost always an FBI agent who is

0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.560
<v Speaker 2>friends with the Nazi. Yes, and that's that's the important thing, right,

0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, the these anti fascists are infiltrating these groups,

0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:04.639
<v Speaker 2>and so is the FBI right, Like a lot of

0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.240
<v Speaker 2>these hate groups, somebody is either a paid informant, freelance informant,

0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.560
<v Speaker 2>or an actual undercover agent. And that's great, I guess,

0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:17.159
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of times they will prioritize keeping their

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:22.199
<v Speaker 2>agent undercover, yes, over using the information to protect anyone.

0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.119
<v Speaker 2>And when we do it, when anti fascists do that,

0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.160
<v Speaker 2>we are invested in protecting our communities, not building a case.

0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly.

0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:31.720
<v Speaker 2>You don't need to take this to a grand jury.

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:32.960
<v Speaker 2>You don't need to keep a guy in there for

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.000
<v Speaker 2>twenty years waiting for the big fish. You're protecting a community, yes.

0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.399
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's an example of that in the book.

0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.320
<v Speaker 2>There was a kind of this white whale in anti

0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.159
<v Speaker 2>fascist circles that people were trying to identify, and he

0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.679
<v Speaker 2>was a leader in the Ball Patrol, which of course

0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.520
<v Speaker 2>is this community of Nazis that praises his mass shooters

0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.120
<v Speaker 2>and tries to encourage other Nazis to commit mass shootings.

0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.360
<v Speaker 2>And he was eventually identified as this guy named Andrew

0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Cassat in Sacramento, California. I remember Vic yeah, and his

0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:08.199
<v Speaker 2>student his pseudonym was Vic Mackie Yeah, and anti fascist

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 2>identified him.

0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.200
<v Speaker 1>I published a story at huff Post. It emerges later

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.879
<v Speaker 1>that Andrew Cassat was already on like the no.

0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.040
<v Speaker 2>Fly lists, yes, which means the government already knew who

0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.640
<v Speaker 2>that fucking man was when he was he was recording

0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:28.360
<v Speaker 2>a podcast about shooting me in my womb through my vagina,

0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and the government already knew who he.

0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 1>Was, yes, and which is just insane. And you know,

0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.199
<v Speaker 1>and they'll claim it's like investigative secrecy, like it's some

0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:38.199
<v Speaker 1>kind of some kind of pragmatism, but it's like for what,

0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.240
<v Speaker 1>like they're posing an urgent threat.

0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.000
<v Speaker 2>For one thing. I felt safer, And I was safer

0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.159
<v Speaker 2>once I knew who he was, once someone did the

0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.040
<v Speaker 2>work of identifying that man, and I could say with

0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 2>certainty he is in California, he is not near me.

0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.679
<v Speaker 2>I was safer, Yes, And like anti fascist gave me

0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:57.359
<v Speaker 2>that the government did not give me that the government

0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:58.400
<v Speaker 2>would never have given me that.

0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.919
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly. And I think it's also you know, obviously,

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, a big tenet of militant anti fascism is

0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:07.840
<v Speaker 1>that you don't trust law enforcement or the state in

0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.359
<v Speaker 1>this fight. And not only for the reasons we're describing now,

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.680
<v Speaker 1>but there's like this historical irony in when the FBI

0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:20.479
<v Speaker 1>or law enforcement in general infiltrates white supremacist groups, they

0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:22.359
<v Speaker 1>end up finding a bunch of their buddies in these

0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>white supremacist groups, like they end up identifying a lot

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.439
<v Speaker 1>of police officers. And I think it just goes to

0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 1>show the ways in which obviously law enforcement and white

0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.080
<v Speaker 1>supremacist groups often share similar goals.

0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.600
<v Speaker 2>Very much so, and sometimes once they have a guy

0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.080
<v Speaker 2>in there. I mean, I'm sure it happens still to

0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.120
<v Speaker 2>this day. We don't have the records of it happening now,

0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.280
<v Speaker 2>but we have the sort of sixties and seventies era

0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.800
<v Speaker 2>co intel pro records now that do show that. You know,

0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 2>they had tons of FBI agents infiltrating the Clan, allegedly

0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:55.440
<v Speaker 2>to disrupt the clan, but that's not what they were doing.

0:21:56.080 --> 0:22:00.040
<v Speaker 2>They were steering the Clan into disrupting the civil rights move.

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, but I mean, most famously the Greensboro massacre,

0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:08.480
<v Speaker 1>where you know, the Clan and other white supremacist murdered

0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:12.440
<v Speaker 1>some anti fascist communist activists, and then it emerged afterwards

0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.119
<v Speaker 1>that an FBI agent was in the group but didn't

0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.080
<v Speaker 1>report kind of their plans for.

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Violence over and over again. Yeah, and those five people

0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:23.280
<v Speaker 2>died for it, Yeah, exactly, which is why I will

0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:27.880
<v Speaker 2>always trust an anti fascist infiltrator over an FBI agent. Yes,

0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:30.879
<v Speaker 2>I loved the historical parallels, right, you know, so you

0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.520
<v Speaker 2>take dosing all the way back to the second Clan.

0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, this outside agitator narrative is not new. It's

0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.160
<v Speaker 2>something Martin Luther King Junior wrote about. You were seeing

0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.199
<v Speaker 2>that now, right, Like, you know, these people protesting their

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.200
<v Speaker 2>outside agitators. This isn't the real community. The real community

0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:48.920
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't behave like this. It's the same as it ever was, right.

0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:51.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah exactly. I mean I think you know, since

0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:56.919
<v Speaker 1>Antifa kind of exploded into the American consciousness, MAGA and

0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:02.920
<v Speaker 1>the rights seized on Antifa as a boogeyman, and they

0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.359
<v Speaker 1>trusted that kind of liberals and centrists were going to

0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.800
<v Speaker 1>throw Antifa under the bus, right, that like they were

0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:14.200
<v Speaker 1>going to come to Antifa's defense necessarily or even acknowledge

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:17.639
<v Speaker 1>a lot of times that Antifa existed, And you know,

0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:23.120
<v Speaker 1>that allowed them to create this boogeyman of like epic proportions.

0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>So like in twenty seventeen, after Charlottesville, a synonymous pro

0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Trump troll called Microchip starts a petition to declare Antifa

0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:40.359
<v Speaker 1>a quote, domestic terrorist organization. This petition goes viral, gets

0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:44.359
<v Speaker 1>like three hundred thousand signees, and Microchip ends up giving

0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:49.280
<v Speaker 1>an interview to Politico where he's very upfront and frank

0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.919
<v Speaker 1>about why he's doing this. And it's not because the

0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:56.800
<v Speaker 1>White House is actually going to declare Antifa domestic terrorist organization.

0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:57.399
<v Speaker 2>Oops.

0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:00.439
<v Speaker 1>Oops, there's no general domestic terrorist statute even do that

0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:03.919
<v Speaker 1>Antifa is not an organization. He's very explicit to say,

0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:07.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm doing this to set up Antifa as a punching

0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:11.440
<v Speaker 1>bag and to deflect and distract from the far right's

0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:12.960
<v Speaker 1>very real violence.

0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:14.479
<v Speaker 2>Pretty wild that he said it.

0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:15.600
<v Speaker 1>He he just said it.

0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:16.920
<v Speaker 2>He yeah, said it.

0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:21.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it's like that he admitted it, meme, he

0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.400
<v Speaker 1>admitted it. He admitted yeah. Yeah. And you know, over

0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:26.640
<v Speaker 1>the next few months, every time there's a mass shooting,

0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:31.000
<v Speaker 1>you have folks like Jack Pisobic and other kind of

0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:34.280
<v Speaker 1>disinformation artists jumping in when you know there's not a

0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:38.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of information yet to blame these mass shootings on Antifa.

0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's a weird troll who still thinks I'm

0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:42.400
<v Speaker 2>responsible for January.

0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:46.320
<v Speaker 1>Sixth, Yes, yes, exactly, very impressive work, by the way.

0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.439
<v Speaker 1>You know, so they're using Antifa that way to like

0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:54.280
<v Speaker 1>distract and deflect. They're blaming Antifa for wildfires and trained

0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:57.520
<v Speaker 1>derailments and all this crazy shit. And then you know,

0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:00.080
<v Speaker 1>there's a little bit of a wall. And then in

0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:04.359
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty, the George Floyd uprisings happen. And you know,

0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:09.040
<v Speaker 1>the George Floyd uprisings are one of the biggest mass

0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:13.360
<v Speaker 1>uprisings in American history. It's completely grassroots and organic, and

0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:18.720
<v Speaker 1>it is led by black protesters in their communities inspired

0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:21.639
<v Speaker 1>by uprisings again in Minneapolis.

0:25:22.080 --> 0:25:23.719
<v Speaker 2>It's too soon for history to be repeating.

0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:28.640
<v Speaker 1>I know, it's really crazy. But Antifa, the Antifa boogeyman,

0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:33.280
<v Speaker 1>now is repurposed as kind of this outside agitator's trope

0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:37.840
<v Speaker 1>on steroids. Right, So Trump and all these maggot influencers

0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:43.920
<v Speaker 1>rush to blame Antifa for fomenting these mass uprisings, which

0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:48.640
<v Speaker 1>is absurd. Yeah. Sure, and Antifa activists were at these uprisings,

0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:52.879
<v Speaker 1>but you know, they weren't instigating them, nor would they

0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:56.200
<v Speaker 1>have the organizing power to instigate such a massive uprising

0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:59.320
<v Speaker 1>like that when the right is doing this, it's an

0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:04.960
<v Speaker 1>effort you make these uprising seem artificial or you know,

0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:09.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of astroturfed, something you can dismiss, something you can

0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:13.000
<v Speaker 1>dismiss as inorganic and artificial. And it's a way of

0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:17.160
<v Speaker 1>like distracting from the very real grievance at the heart

0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:19.480
<v Speaker 1>of these demonstrations, which is that we want cops to

0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 1>stop killing black people. So throughout the summer of twenty twenty,

0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:29.880
<v Speaker 1>the Antifa panic reaches like absurd levels where you know,

0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:35.000
<v Speaker 1>there are rumors, viral rumors of busloads of Antifa roaming

0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:40.200
<v Speaker 1>the countryside looking to burn down white businesses. You know, again,

0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Antifa's blamed for wildfires in the West. All of a sudden,

0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:49.080
<v Speaker 1>you get these paramilitary groups, militia groups out west using

0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:54.720
<v Speaker 1>these Antifa rumors as a pretext to literally occupy town's

0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:58.399
<v Speaker 1>entire towns. You know, you have forty white dudes in

0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:04.000
<v Speaker 1>full camo and vests carrying big guns patrolling the streets

0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:06.840
<v Speaker 1>on the lookout for this Antifa menace. You know, there's

0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:10.520
<v Speaker 1>like a story about in a Sandpoint, Idaho, which is

0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:13.920
<v Speaker 1>this gorgeous town in the Panhandle, and these like group

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:16.760
<v Speaker 1>of like high school kids go on a Black Lives

0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:20.160
<v Speaker 1>Matter march across a bridge, and all of a sudden,

0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:23.320
<v Speaker 1>they're being followed by these like middle aged white dudes

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:28.240
<v Speaker 1>carrying AR fifteen's and calling them racial slurs Jesus Christ.

0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:32.159
<v Speaker 1>So like, basically, the Antifa boogeyman in twenty twenty is

0:27:32.200 --> 0:27:36.720
<v Speaker 1>repackaged again not only to sew division on the left

0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:40.520
<v Speaker 1>and to create this outside agitator's narrative, but to create

0:27:40.520 --> 0:27:43.199
<v Speaker 1>this pretext for vigilante violence. And there was a lot

0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:46.959
<v Speaker 1>of vigilante violence that occurred in twenty twenty. Of course,

0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:51.439
<v Speaker 1>you know, now we're in twenty twenty six, and we

0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:55.080
<v Speaker 1>saw last throughout last year as well, the Antifa boogeyman

0:27:55.160 --> 0:28:00.399
<v Speaker 1>again is being you know, summoned to call whoever is

0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:05.160
<v Speaker 1>the Trump regimes effort to ethnically cleanse the United States,

0:28:05.600 --> 0:28:06.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, domestic terrorists.

0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:07.640
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:11.000
<v Speaker 2>The enemy is simultaneously very weak and very strong in

0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:13.040
<v Speaker 2>their minds, right, like, yeah, we're all a bunch of

0:28:13.040 --> 0:28:14.959
<v Speaker 2>soy boys who live in our mom's basements, but we

0:28:14.960 --> 0:28:19.800
<v Speaker 2>were also a massive, networked, armed organization with unlimited funding.

0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:24.040
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly, exactly, And you know, obviously Trump claimed to

0:28:24.080 --> 0:28:29.359
<v Speaker 1>formally designate Antifa a domestic terror group in September.

0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't mean anything. He did say it.

0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:33.800
<v Speaker 1>He did say it, and then he held a Antifa

0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:36.480
<v Speaker 1>round table at the White House with a lot of

0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:39.960
<v Speaker 1>our friends, Andy No Jack Pisovic. But you know, as

0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:43.000
<v Speaker 1>farcical as it all is, it's also deeply dangerous and alarming.

0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:47.840
<v Speaker 1>In September, Trump designates Antifa domestic terror group. And then

0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:52.760
<v Speaker 1>last month they murder Renee Good in cold blood and

0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.240
<v Speaker 1>what do they do They call her domestic terrorists after

0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:55.680
<v Speaker 1>the fact.

0:28:55.960 --> 0:28:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, it's pretext.

0:28:57.760 --> 0:28:59.360
<v Speaker 1>It's all pretext, because if you.

0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Create this sort of shadowy network of unidentified agitators who

0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:08.160
<v Speaker 2>are responsible for unspecified but very bad crimes, you can

0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:08.720
<v Speaker 2>kill anyone.

0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Say it with them, Yeah, exactly. I wrote a piece

0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 1>for The Nation recently about how there's a tendency in

0:29:16.800 --> 0:29:21.000
<v Speaker 1>response to like this escalating mega hysteria about Antifa. There's

0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:26.000
<v Speaker 1>a tendency among liberals and centrists to dismiss Antifa as

0:29:26.040 --> 0:29:28.960
<v Speaker 1>not existing, to altimately say that it's not even a thing,

0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:33.360
<v Speaker 1>or to say, well, antifa just means anti fascists, so

0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 1>we're all antifa, but like, to me that entirely and

0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:40.080
<v Speaker 1>this is the point, like a like antifa is real

0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 1>and it refers to like a very real subculture and

0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:49.120
<v Speaker 1>a very real tradition, militant tradition of anti fascist organizing.

0:29:49.720 --> 0:29:54.560
<v Speaker 1>And if liberals and centrists can't acknowledge that antifa is

0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:57.960
<v Speaker 1>real and come to their defense, then you know, the

0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:00.280
<v Speaker 1>people doing this work might be in some dang and

0:30:00.320 --> 0:30:04.000
<v Speaker 1>I think it's important to show them some solidarity. Right now.

0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:08.520
<v Speaker 2>It's such a complicated reality, right because it's not a group, yeah,

0:30:08.600 --> 0:30:11.000
<v Speaker 2>but it is. It's also it's a thousand different groups

0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:13.400
<v Speaker 2>of two or three or ten. It's not like a

0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 2>nationwide membership organization. You know, it is just an idea,

0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:19.640
<v Speaker 2>but it's also a history, a set of tactics. Yes,

0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:22.040
<v Speaker 2>it's all of those things, and it's none of those things.

0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:24.720
<v Speaker 2>And it's different depending on who you ask and why

0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:25.680
<v Speaker 2>you're asking.

0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:27.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And like anyone can do it, you know,

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:30.480
<v Speaker 1>like right, like anyone can take up the mantle of

0:30:30.520 --> 0:30:32.040
<v Speaker 1>like militant anti fascist work.

0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:33.840
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people are doing it on their own.

0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:37.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think like that's what's been so kind

0:30:37.520 --> 0:30:41.200
<v Speaker 1>of inspiring to me about Minneapolis and the uprisings, right is,

0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:45.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, everything that community is doing right now is

0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:51.400
<v Speaker 1>a grassroots, organic response, and they're doing it because no

0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:53.400
<v Speaker 1>one else is going to do it for them. Yeah,

0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.840
<v Speaker 1>there's this axiom that we talk about a lot in

0:30:56.920 --> 0:31:01.280
<v Speaker 1>anti fascist spaces and anarchist spaces and black liberation movements.

0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:05.560
<v Speaker 1>You know, this axiom of we protect us, And you

0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:10.680
<v Speaker 1>know that is on very big display right now in Minneapolis,

0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.600
<v Speaker 1>where you have people doing what anti fascist activists we're

0:31:14.600 --> 0:31:17.960
<v Speaker 1>doing to Nazis in twenty seventeen, which is monitoring them,

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:22.720
<v Speaker 1>following them, disrupting them. They are figuring out where they

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:26.320
<v Speaker 1>are staying, where they're eating, and pressuring those businesses and

0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:29.720
<v Speaker 1>those hotels not to serve them. They are showing up

0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:36.360
<v Speaker 1>outside their hotels doing noise demos, they are identifying them. Yeah.

0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think, you know, we protect us is

0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:41.760
<v Speaker 2>such a you know, it's such a short, pithy phrase,

0:31:41.840 --> 0:31:44.720
<v Speaker 2>but you don't know what it means until you feel it. Yeah, right,

0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Like I think in Minneapolis people are feeling it. They're

0:31:47.480 --> 0:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>protecting each other, right. You know, here in Charlottesville after

0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Unite the Right, you know, when local authority figures were

0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:56.280
<v Speaker 2>saying things about Antifa, you would have you know, white

0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:57.920
<v Speaker 2>grandma's get up there and say, don't you say that

0:31:57.920 --> 0:32:00.480
<v Speaker 2>about antifa, right, don't you say that about antique? You

0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:02.160
<v Speaker 2>know it is a word I didn't know a month ago,

0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:05.280
<v Speaker 2>but they saved my life. Yes, right that Once you

0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:09.200
<v Speaker 2>have experienced that kind of community solidarity, that that we

0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.040
<v Speaker 2>protect us ethos, once you've seen it, you know what

0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:14.880
<v Speaker 2>it means, yes, exactly, and nobody's going to tell you different.

0:32:15.080 --> 0:32:17.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And like you know, it's also it's just so

0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:22.680
<v Speaker 1>clear in Minneapolis that like the Democratic Party and you know,

0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:27.640
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement, the local police are not doing anything, you know,

0:32:27.920 --> 0:32:29.680
<v Speaker 1>like they're they're not They're the.

0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:32.360
<v Speaker 2>People that are supposed to protect you, aren't going to

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:34.760
<v Speaker 2>aren't going to The police will watch you get beaten

0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:35.240
<v Speaker 2>in the street.

0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:37.640
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, exactly, and your.

0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Center, your senator will say nothing when the president calls

0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:40.440
<v Speaker 2>you a terrorist.

0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:44.360
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And so you know, I think it just kind

0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:49.000
<v Speaker 1>of goes to show that this kind of militant anti

0:32:49.040 --> 0:32:54.120
<v Speaker 1>fascist tradition is it's an organic response to conditions. It

0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:58.680
<v Speaker 1>is like an insurgent form of community self defense. As

0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:03.320
<v Speaker 1>horrifying the footage coming out of Minneapolis is, especially that

0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:06.880
<v Speaker 1>photo this week of the five year old god being detained,

0:33:06.880 --> 0:33:08.320
<v Speaker 1>which I can't get out of my head, and which

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:10.680
<v Speaker 1>makes my blood boil thinking of it.

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:12.120
<v Speaker 2>I can't cry on the recording.

0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, it makes me want to cry too.

0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.240
<v Speaker 2>Something that really struck me reading the book. You know,

0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:30.200
<v Speaker 2>I was saying, like, you know, I read Vincent Washington's leaks,

0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:33.400
<v Speaker 2>but he didn't know anything about Vincent. You said that

0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 2>he told you he was moved to start taking this

0:33:36.920 --> 0:33:40.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of militant action by the Portland Max train stabbing. Yeah,

0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:43.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean that stopped me in my tracks.

0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:46.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, And I think one of the more

0:33:46.240 --> 0:33:52.360
<v Speaker 1>moving parts of researching this book was realizing that all

0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:56.680
<v Speaker 1>of the anti fascists doing this work had brushes with

0:33:57.000 --> 0:34:00.360
<v Speaker 1>fascist violence in their communities, and that's what inspired them

0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:04.160
<v Speaker 1>to do it. You know, Vincent was in Portland in

0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:08.600
<v Speaker 1>twenty what year was that was seventeen May twenty seventeen, right,

0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:13.800
<v Speaker 1>and he gets on a train at Hollywood Station in Portland,

0:34:14.360 --> 0:34:17.080
<v Speaker 1>goes through a friend's place, has a good time, and

0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:20.960
<v Speaker 1>then later reads the news and realizes that had he

0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:25.480
<v Speaker 1>taken one train before his that left about a minute before,

0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:28.080
<v Speaker 1>he could have been in this car where this white

0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:34.560
<v Speaker 1>supremacist named Jeremy Christian started harassing to black Muslim girls.

0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:37.920
<v Speaker 1>He is haranguing them, telling them to get out of America.

0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:44.080
<v Speaker 1>When three men intervene, Jeremy Christian slashes the throats of

0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:47.040
<v Speaker 1>the three men and two of them die. Right, God,

0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:49.200
<v Speaker 1>we're gonna get emotional on this, but like one of

0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:49.800
<v Speaker 1>the last.

0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:52.040
<v Speaker 2>Times, this one really really gets to me. I've sort

0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:53.880
<v Speaker 2>of brushed up against the story and a couple of

0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:56.880
<v Speaker 2>things I've written, and I mean, it's it's one of

0:34:56.920 --> 0:35:00.680
<v Speaker 2>the most moving encounters of you know, of all of

0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:03.640
<v Speaker 2>these sort of moving pieces, right, A Nazi committing violence

0:35:03.680 --> 0:35:07.880
<v Speaker 2>against a Somali immigrant. Right, that's so relevant today, ordinary

0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:10.799
<v Speaker 2>people intervening. Only one of them was sort of an

0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:13.840
<v Speaker 2>active anti fascist in his community, the young man that survived,

0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:17.040
<v Speaker 2>Micah Fletcher. The other two were just every day dudes,

0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:20.279
<v Speaker 2>everyday dudes. They didn't have anti fascist politics. But they

0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:23.160
<v Speaker 2>saw a Nazi threatening a little girl.

0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Is they saw Nazi threatening a little girl and they

0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:31.319
<v Speaker 1>lost their lives. And as one of them, and I'm

0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:33.839
<v Speaker 1>blanking on his name right now, it's a Talisian. Yeah,

0:35:34.280 --> 0:35:38.600
<v Speaker 1>was lying bleeding out. He said, tell everyone on this train,

0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:43.440
<v Speaker 1>I love them. So I actually flew to Portland's a

0:35:43.440 --> 0:35:47.359
<v Speaker 1>few days later, and ended up interviewing his girlfriend. Oh

0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:52.839
<v Speaker 1>my god, you kept a journal of their relationship and

0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:55.799
<v Speaker 1>read me passages from it, and like, you know, how

0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:58.240
<v Speaker 1>beautiful their relationship was. They had just moved in together,

0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:02.279
<v Speaker 1>they were growing a garden together, and before he left

0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:05.279
<v Speaker 1>that morning to get on that train, he said something

0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:09.000
<v Speaker 1>really wonderful just about how much he loved her. So

0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:12.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, basically his day started and ended with these

0:36:12.280 --> 0:36:13.000
<v Speaker 1>expressions of.

0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Love that would always really rex me.

0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, me too.

0:36:16.600 --> 0:36:19.160
<v Speaker 2>But seeing that that was sort of you know, as

0:36:19.160 --> 0:36:21.680
<v Speaker 2>someone who got into this work after seeing what happened

0:36:21.960 --> 0:36:24.399
<v Speaker 2>where I live, Yes, exactly, it was. It was very

0:36:24.400 --> 0:36:26.120
<v Speaker 2>striking to me that you know, it was the same

0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:28.800
<v Speaker 2>for Vincent. It was something that he was not involved in.

0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:31.760
<v Speaker 2>He didn't witness this stabbing, but he was so close

0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:34.360
<v Speaker 2>to it. It felt so intimate to him, and he

0:36:34.440 --> 0:36:36.480
<v Speaker 2>felt like, we'll have to do something.

0:36:36.360 --> 0:36:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly. And there were so many other examples that

0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:42.080
<v Speaker 1>I name in the book of these really horrendous hate

0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:45.719
<v Speaker 1>crimes taking place in Portland and Seattle and across the

0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:49.200
<v Speaker 1>Pacific Northwest, which you know, historically has been a hub

0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:53.600
<v Speaker 1>for white supremacist organizing. So you know, for Vincent if

0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:56.440
<v Speaker 1>the threat felt very real to people he knew and loved,

0:36:56.760 --> 0:37:01.200
<v Speaker 1>which is why he decided to go undercover into Patriot

0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:03.439
<v Speaker 1>Front and to fuck up Patriot Front. He had done

0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:06.880
<v Speaker 1>some other anti fascist work before that, like kind of

0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:10.720
<v Speaker 1>monitoring the Proud Boys, but then, you know, I think

0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:12.360
<v Speaker 1>when the Proud Boys were on a bit of a

0:37:12.400 --> 0:37:16.080
<v Speaker 1>decline after January sixth, he started to look at groups

0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:18.880
<v Speaker 1>that operated more in the dark and were more secretive,

0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:22.920
<v Speaker 1>and he decided to focus on Patriot Front.

0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:25.719
<v Speaker 2>And how prescient at that time. I mean, Patriot Front

0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:29.200
<v Speaker 2>in twenty seventeen didn't exist in early twenty seventeen, but

0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 2>sort of as they rebranded into twenty eighteen from Vanguard America.

0:37:33.000 --> 0:37:34.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how prescient of him to know that that

0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:35.680
<v Speaker 2>would be the place to go.

0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, totally like that. That's where I think the

0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:43.840
<v Speaker 1>energy was and like kind of the anonymous organizing was going,

0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:47.200
<v Speaker 1>and you know, and what he did was really remarkable.

0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:50.520
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot a lot of anti fascist infiltrations

0:37:50.520 --> 0:37:54.239
<v Speaker 1>and spy work is done online. You know, people just

0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:58.560
<v Speaker 1>creating a username in an avatar and they can manage

0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:01.800
<v Speaker 1>to do most of the spa from behind a computer screen.

0:38:02.280 --> 0:38:05.160
<v Speaker 1>You know, one of the more significant acts of espionage

0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:08.439
<v Speaker 1>during this era is a guy that goes undercover into

0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:13.120
<v Speaker 1>Identity Europa and again manages to get reams and reams

0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:15.400
<v Speaker 1>of their private messages which end up on Unicorn.

0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Riot and that destroyed them too.

0:38:17.080 --> 0:38:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Destroyed them and you know those messages, the panic and

0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:25.040
<v Speaker 1>the discord like database ends up identifying one hundred Nazis

0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:28.360
<v Speaker 1>in Identity Europa, which is just remarkable. The anti fascist

0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:31.920
<v Speaker 1>spy that did this I talked to and he just

0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:36.320
<v Speaker 1>had to do an interview with an Identity Europa leader

0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:38.319
<v Speaker 1>to get into the group and I got to listen

0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:41.600
<v Speaker 1>to that recording and it's remarkable. But you know, after that,

0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:43.840
<v Speaker 1>he didn't have to do that much in person, you know,

0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:47.560
<v Speaker 1>method acting to pretend to be a Nazi vincent. However,

0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:50.480
<v Speaker 1>did he you know, for five months he was going hiking.

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.680
<v Speaker 1>He was going hiking, man like, because Patriotfront requires you

0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:57.440
<v Speaker 1>to go on missions and hikes and you know kind

0:38:57.440 --> 0:38:59.880
<v Speaker 1>of group activities. He had to do shit in per

0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:04.520
<v Speaker 1>so like this dude was acting like deserves an oscar,

0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:08.080
<v Speaker 1>you know. So he climbed Mount Raynier for two nights

0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:11.680
<v Speaker 1>with thirteen other Nazis, Oh my god. And by the way,

0:39:11.719 --> 0:39:16.040
<v Speaker 1>at this point had earned the trust of his local

0:39:16.120 --> 0:39:19.640
<v Speaker 1>chapters so much that he was named the official photographer

0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:23.160
<v Speaker 1>and videographer for the chapter, which is just delicious.

0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:26.480
<v Speaker 2>They're so smart, smart, so smart. I mean, it's like

0:39:26.520 --> 0:39:28.799
<v Speaker 2>it's like that Simpsons bit, right, Like, videotaping this crime

0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:32.120
<v Speaker 2>spree was the best idea we ever heard. Take video

0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:35.359
<v Speaker 2>of everything they do. Yes, and then because of these

0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:38.799
<v Speaker 2>leaks we see that in several lawsuits against Patriot Front, right,

0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:42.440
<v Speaker 2>like they are recording video as they you know, vandalize

0:39:42.480 --> 0:39:45.239
<v Speaker 2>civil rights monuments and things like that. And then they

0:39:45.239 --> 0:39:47.000
<v Speaker 2>got sued in three places.

0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:49.799
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and it's it's basically the stringer bell like, are

0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:52.080
<v Speaker 1>you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy? You know me?

0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:56.799
<v Speaker 1>They are, and they are, so you know, eventually all

0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:59.320
<v Speaker 1>this data that Vincent collects. And by the way, so

0:39:59.360 --> 0:40:02.680
<v Speaker 1>he's in the group for about five months, He's scheduled

0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:06.719
<v Speaker 1>to go to their big march in DC, but at

0:40:06.719 --> 0:40:09.480
<v Speaker 1>the last minute claims he can't because the FBI knocks

0:40:09.480 --> 0:40:12.040
<v Speaker 1>on his door. That's a lie. He's just doing that

0:40:12.080 --> 0:40:17.000
<v Speaker 1>to scare Patriot Front. When Patriotfront gets to DC and

0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:19.920
<v Speaker 1>goes on their march. So anti fascists in DC know

0:40:20.520 --> 0:40:23.759
<v Speaker 1>their plans and they know where they are parking their

0:40:23.840 --> 0:40:27.160
<v Speaker 1>vehicles for this march. They know where patriofront is going

0:40:27.239 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 1>to march. And let's just say, some Nazi cars get redecorated.

0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:34.040
<v Speaker 2>Some tires did not make it out of DC that night.

0:40:34.360 --> 0:40:36.560
<v Speaker 1>Tires did not make it out of DC, some windshields

0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:40.719
<v Speaker 1>did not survive. There is some graffiti. Patriotfront gets back

0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:42.719
<v Speaker 1>to their U hauls first off that they used to

0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:46.759
<v Speaker 1>get transported into d C from suburban Maryland. Their U

0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:50.040
<v Speaker 1>hauls are fucked up. They get back to Maryland finally

0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:53.719
<v Speaker 1>and to see all their cars fucked up, so you know,

0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:55.759
<v Speaker 1>there is an act of sabotage. They realize they have

0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:59.480
<v Speaker 1>an infiltrator. Before long they realize that it's the man

0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:03.560
<v Speaker 1>they know is and I think they think that that's it,

0:41:03.680 --> 0:41:07.239
<v Speaker 1>like there'll be a few doses, but you know, that's it.

0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:09.799
<v Speaker 1>It didn't seem like he hacked their server. But then,

0:41:09.960 --> 0:41:13.440
<v Speaker 1>of course a month later, all of their messages end up,

0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:16.280
<v Speaker 1>everything end up on Unicorn. Riot You tell Thomas Rousseau

0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:18.400
<v Speaker 1>the news of this.

0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh that was such a treat.

0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can't. I can't believe we've never talked about this.

0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:26.160
<v Speaker 1>And over the course of the next few months years,

0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:31.560
<v Speaker 1>so many Patriot Front members are identified, and there's also

0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:36.520
<v Speaker 1>some other delicious details, like Vincent, after his infiltration is over,

0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:41.319
<v Speaker 1>he has all this Patriot Front propaganda material that he

0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:47.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of took along the way, banners, pamphlets, shields. So

0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:49.800
<v Speaker 1>what he does on New Year's is he makes a pire,

0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:53.520
<v Speaker 1>towering pire of this material and lights it on fire,

0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:56.919
<v Speaker 1>makes a really beautiful video set to old lang Syne,

0:41:57.600 --> 0:42:01.719
<v Speaker 1>and post it online Patriot Front to see, and I

0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:04.759
<v Speaker 1>think kind of warning them that, like, you know, there

0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:07.279
<v Speaker 1>might be some more coming, some more docs is coming,

0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.560
<v Speaker 1>some more stuff coming. And the thing is is, like

0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:13.160
<v Speaker 1>Vincent's story is just one story, one kind of remarkable

0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:16.440
<v Speaker 1>story of anti fascist spywork over the last ten years.

0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:20.239
<v Speaker 1>There are so many other stories that I heard about that,

0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:22.520
<v Speaker 1>for various reasons, I couldn't put in the book, or

0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:25.959
<v Speaker 1>there wasn't room for in the book. But it's just, yeah,

0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:29.120
<v Speaker 1>I feel very privileged that I got to tell this

0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:30.680
<v Speaker 1>story that not many people know.

0:42:31.280 --> 0:42:33.319
<v Speaker 2>It was such a great framework for the book because

0:42:33.320 --> 0:42:35.879
<v Speaker 2>it's not just about that particular infiltration, but it sort

0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:39.320
<v Speaker 2>of provides this, this running framework, this sort of introduction

0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:42.239
<v Speaker 2>to the concept. I thought it was very nicely done.

0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:44.520
<v Speaker 2>I was excited to learn about Vincent because I have only,

0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:47.440
<v Speaker 2>like I said, read his leaks, and then the lawsuits

0:42:47.440 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 2>that it inspired, and then the lawsuit against him, right, yeah,

0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.240
<v Speaker 2>which was dismissed last week. Yes, it was congratulations Vincent,

0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:53.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes it was.

0:42:53.920 --> 0:42:56.040
<v Speaker 1>Yes. The book gets into this a little bit, but

0:42:56.160 --> 0:42:59.360
<v Speaker 1>Patriot Front does end up ascertaining what it believes is

0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Vincent's real identity, and they file a lawsuit in federal

0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:08.440
<v Speaker 1>court in Washington, and it had been ongoing for the

0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:13.320
<v Speaker 1>last year or two, but was finally dismissed in court

0:43:13.360 --> 0:43:15.000
<v Speaker 1>this week. Yeah, or last week.

0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:17.560
<v Speaker 2>So congratulations to the person who may or may not

0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:20.480
<v Speaker 2>have been Vincent. I'll never know. It didn't make it,

0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:23.200
<v Speaker 2>didn't make it to a how they get ever made

0:43:23.200 --> 0:43:23.880
<v Speaker 2>it to a hearing?

0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:25.840
<v Speaker 1>No? Yeah, yeah, I know.

0:43:25.880 --> 0:43:27.600
<v Speaker 2>I said I wouldn't take up a ton of your time,

0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:31.080
<v Speaker 2>but I can't let you go without talking about red Beard.

0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:32.680
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, this is.

0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:37.440
<v Speaker 2>The first concrete, confirmed published docs of red Beard.

0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:39.839
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god. Yeah, I can't believe it's taken us

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:41.680
<v Speaker 1>this long to talk about it. Thank you for reminding me.

0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:45.000
<v Speaker 2>So for the listener. You know, we talked about how

0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:47.080
<v Speaker 2>this is this is worth that is accessible to everyone,

0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:49.520
<v Speaker 2>but it is not for everyone. In Red Beard to

0:43:49.600 --> 0:43:53.160
<v Speaker 2>someone I have read so many incorrect doxes of And

0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:56.120
<v Speaker 2>that's why it is so important. It's so important to

0:43:56.120 --> 0:43:57.520
<v Speaker 2>be sure of what you're writing, because I have read

0:43:57.520 --> 0:43:59.040
<v Speaker 2>one hundred failed oxes of this man.

0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah this, yeah, So Redbeard to those who don't know, again,

0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:07.840
<v Speaker 1>was kind of this white whale in anti fascist circles,

0:44:07.880 --> 0:44:13.560
<v Speaker 1>white supremacist will basically insomuch as he was one of

0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:17.640
<v Speaker 1>the men filmed in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen beating DeAndre Harris.

0:44:18.080 --> 0:44:20.680
<v Speaker 1>For those that don't remember, DeAndre Harris was a black

0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:24.920
<v Speaker 1>counterprotester resident of the Charlottesville area. He was a nineteen

0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:28.600
<v Speaker 1>year old teacher for special ed students and he ends

0:44:28.680 --> 0:44:33.520
<v Speaker 1>up in a scuffle with Nazis that are leaving Charlottesville,

0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:36.960
<v Speaker 1>leaving the rally, and they end up in a parking

0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:39.960
<v Speaker 1>garage where five of them beat him while he's on

0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:44.839
<v Speaker 1>the pavement with metal poles and other weapons, and it's

0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:47.360
<v Speaker 1>captured on camera. I think it's, you know, one of

0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:52.080
<v Speaker 1>the more distressing things to watch from Charlottesville. I actually

0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:53.920
<v Speaker 1>happened to be in the garage at the time. Was

0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:56.759
<v Speaker 1>running towards DeAndre when one of the Nazis pulled a

0:44:56.800 --> 0:44:59.319
<v Speaker 1>gun and started waving it around, so I ducked behind

0:44:59.360 --> 0:45:01.880
<v Speaker 1>a car. By the time I got up, DeAndre was

0:45:01.960 --> 0:45:04.120
<v Speaker 1>stumbling away. There was a pool of blood on the pavement.

0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:07.279
<v Speaker 2>We I have to go back to the footage. Who

0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:08.320
<v Speaker 2>was it that pulled the gun.

0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:09.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure it is.

0:45:09.560 --> 0:45:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh, were you over on the police station side of

0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:12.520
<v Speaker 2>the divider.

0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:14.880
<v Speaker 1>I think I was running.

0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:17.439
<v Speaker 2>I had to go back and find you in the footage. Yeah,

0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:18.719
<v Speaker 2>I think the guy who pointed a gun at you

0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:19.600
<v Speaker 2>was Teddy von Nucomb.

0:45:19.719 --> 0:45:21.359
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god. Well, if we could make that idea,

0:45:21.360 --> 0:45:21.880
<v Speaker 1>that be.

0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Because he pulled because he pulled the gun he did.

0:45:23.680 --> 0:45:25.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, somebody else may have pulled the gun, but

0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:26.279
<v Speaker 2>Teddy pulled a gun.

0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:28.879
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I need to look at a photo of Teddy

0:45:28.960 --> 0:45:31.640
<v Speaker 1>van Nucam it all happened so fad Oh, oh it's

0:45:31.680 --> 0:45:34.320
<v Speaker 1>that guy. Yeah, Oh my god, Oh my god. Okay,

0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:38.160
<v Speaker 1>all right, let's talk about this way.

0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:41.080
<v Speaker 2>Molly here recording. After the interview was over, I went

0:45:41.120 --> 0:45:44.160
<v Speaker 2>back and reviewed that footage and my memory did fail

0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:46.759
<v Speaker 2>me a little bit here. I was thinking about the

0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:50.000
<v Speaker 2>right moment right after the victim and that beating has

0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:53.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of broken away from the main portion of the assault,

0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:56.720
<v Speaker 2>and he's running away. The video taken by Unicorn Riot

0:45:56.880 --> 0:45:59.920
<v Speaker 2>hands over to follow him, and as the camera sweeps

0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:02.400
<v Speaker 2>across the area on the other side of the parking garage,

0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:05.919
<v Speaker 2>you can see a Nazi named Teddy von Nucom that's

0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:08.879
<v Speaker 2>his real name, he changed it. He takes a swing

0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:11.440
<v Speaker 2>at the victim with what looks like a baton, and

0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:15.160
<v Speaker 2>at the same moment somebody does pull a handgun, but

0:46:15.239 --> 0:46:18.720
<v Speaker 2>it's an unidentified man standing right behind Teddy von Nukum.

0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:22.040
<v Speaker 2>I had the image mixed up in my recollection. Sorry

0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:24.840
<v Speaker 2>about that. Teddy von Nucum, as I said in the interview,

0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:27.799
<v Speaker 2>is dead. He shot himself in the chest in twenty

0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:30.400
<v Speaker 2>twenty three, the morning he was supposed to go on

0:46:30.480 --> 0:46:33.640
<v Speaker 2>trial for fentanyl trafficking. I wish I could tell you

0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:36.120
<v Speaker 2>who the little Nazi with the gun is, but it

0:46:36.160 --> 0:46:39.120
<v Speaker 2>looks like there's no idea on him, not yet anyway.

0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Sorry for the listener. This is something I think Chris

0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:45.920
<v Speaker 2>and I have both spent probably one hundred hours looking

0:46:45.920 --> 0:46:49.120
<v Speaker 2>at frame by frame video from seventeen angles of this

0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:52.719
<v Speaker 2>particular assault for a variety of reasons. Right, right, So

0:46:52.880 --> 0:46:55.520
<v Speaker 2>it was this brutal gang assault on this young black man,

0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:58.520
<v Speaker 2>and four people went to prison for it, yes, and

0:46:58.560 --> 0:46:59.280
<v Speaker 2>some people didn't.

0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:02.319
<v Speaker 1>Some people didn't. And one of them was a you know,

0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:05.839
<v Speaker 1>kind of a bigger white dude with a big red

0:47:05.840 --> 0:47:10.080
<v Speaker 1>beard wearing a baseball cap, who from then on earned

0:47:10.160 --> 0:47:14.280
<v Speaker 1>the nickname red Beard. There are all these like you mentioned, kind.

0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Of a million, just like every fat guy with a

0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:18.960
<v Speaker 2>red beard on the East Post has been identified as

0:47:19.000 --> 0:47:19.719
<v Speaker 2>red Beard.

0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:21.399
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly. And it was like all these like kind

0:47:21.400 --> 0:47:25.560
<v Speaker 1>of amateur online sleuths. I think Sean King was in

0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:27.560
<v Speaker 1>the mix for this back in the day, you know,

0:47:27.760 --> 0:47:30.439
<v Speaker 1>trying to idea this guy. No one can find him.

0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:34.439
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people are fossily identified. The Charlottesville Police

0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:37.719
<v Speaker 1>Department can't find him. A detective puts out like a

0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:41.520
<v Speaker 1>call for help, but nothing comes in eventually. And where

0:47:41.520 --> 0:47:44.320
<v Speaker 1>my book kicks off in this story is there's a

0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:47.840
<v Speaker 1>group of anti fascist researchers called Ignite the Right that

0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:51.320
<v Speaker 1>is dedicated to identifying every Nazi that turned up in

0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Charlottesville in twenty seventeen, and they create a database of

0:47:55.200 --> 0:47:57.719
<v Speaker 1>all these photos and videos and a list of all

0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:00.719
<v Speaker 1>the people that have been identified, and the list of

0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:03.680
<v Speaker 1>names that they are identifying keeps on growing and growing,

0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:08.080
<v Speaker 1>and they're identifying some like really crazy names. Like one

0:48:08.360 --> 0:48:11.000
<v Speaker 1>of the stories I ended up doing was about a

0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:15.640
<v Speaker 1>police officer who was working as Richard Spencer's personal John

0:48:15.680 --> 0:48:18.880
<v Speaker 1>Donnelly security guard in Charlottesville. So they're doing a lot

0:48:18.880 --> 0:48:22.120
<v Speaker 1>of really significant docs is like that, but they still

0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:28.400
<v Speaker 1>can't find Red Beard. Eventually, they decide to use facial recognition,

0:48:28.640 --> 0:48:32.880
<v Speaker 1>which is interesting. You know, obviously I think anti fascists

0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:37.360
<v Speaker 1>out of principle are opposed to facial recognition software. But

0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:40.520
<v Speaker 1>I think, you know, you kind of can't show up

0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:43.719
<v Speaker 1>to a gunfight with a knife kind of situation.

0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:47.480
<v Speaker 2>What that's still I think is not enough in this case, right,

0:48:47.520 --> 0:48:51.440
<v Speaker 2>because the commercially available facial recognition software that you know,

0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:53.640
<v Speaker 2>the average non law enforcement person would have access to

0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:58.680
<v Speaker 2>really struggles with round faces like his and big beards.

0:48:59.000 --> 0:49:00.560
<v Speaker 2>So he's got a big beard and a hat and

0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:02.920
<v Speaker 2>his face is very round, and so it's going to

0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:06.440
<v Speaker 2>pull a lot of just sort of round faced redheads.

0:49:06.000 --> 0:49:08.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes exactly, and so like either you know, there's a

0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:11.800
<v Speaker 1>it's a very important and anti fascist work. A facial

0:49:11.840 --> 0:49:14.560
<v Speaker 1>recognition hit is never one hundred percent. You have to

0:49:14.600 --> 0:49:15.279
<v Speaker 1>corroborate it.

0:49:15.280 --> 0:49:16.160
<v Speaker 2>It's not enough.

0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:19.799
<v Speaker 1>So they finally use facial recognition for Red Beard and

0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:23.319
<v Speaker 1>they get a hit. And the hit is a baby faced,

0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:28.640
<v Speaker 1>beardless like nineteen year old white dude in a army

0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:33.200
<v Speaker 1>uniform at a at a base in Georgia and he's

0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:39.160
<v Speaker 1>about to shake the hand of President George W. Bush.

0:49:39.200 --> 0:49:43.600
<v Speaker 1>And the reason he's photographed for this is because Bush

0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:46.839
<v Speaker 1>is making a visit to this military base. I believe

0:49:46.840 --> 0:49:51.800
<v Speaker 1>it's Fort Benning to announce his troop surge in Iraq,

0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:54.640
<v Speaker 1>so a lot of these people are about to be

0:49:54.680 --> 0:49:56.080
<v Speaker 1>sent off to his war.

0:49:56.600 --> 0:49:57.839
<v Speaker 2>And then he brought the war home.

0:49:57.920 --> 0:49:59.640
<v Speaker 1>And then he brought the war. Oh man, Yeah, brought

0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:03.239
<v Speaker 1>the war home. And then so the anti fascist zoom

0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:06.880
<v Speaker 1>in on this photo, but the name tag is Blori,

0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:10.040
<v Speaker 1>so they can't figure out who Red Beard is yet.

0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:14.000
<v Speaker 1>To make a long story short, I end up filing

0:50:14.160 --> 0:50:18.120
<v Speaker 1>a public information request to the George W. Bush Library

0:50:18.239 --> 0:50:19.160
<v Speaker 1>in Texas, right.

0:50:19.080 --> 0:50:21.720
<v Speaker 2>Because they would have had to vet everyone who was there, Yes, exactly,

0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:23.960
<v Speaker 2>and if the president's yeah.

0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:26.960
<v Speaker 1>And you know, my angle on it is that I

0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:30.520
<v Speaker 1>ask for higher resolution photos, we get the higher resolution

0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:35.520
<v Speaker 1>photos and zoom in and sure enough there is his

0:50:35.640 --> 0:50:39.439
<v Speaker 1>last name, Hilman. Now all we have is the last name.

0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:42.440
<v Speaker 1>So there's a lot more work to do. These anti

0:50:42.480 --> 0:50:46.520
<v Speaker 1>fascists go through military yearbooks, they don't find anything. They

0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:50.359
<v Speaker 1>go through so many social media accounts until eventually, one

0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:53.879
<v Speaker 1>day they see a Facebook account that belongs to a

0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:55.360
<v Speaker 1>man named Jay Heilman.

0:50:55.840 --> 0:50:58.399
<v Speaker 2>It's crazy he still had Facebook all these years later.

0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Oh, it's it's wild. And there are photos of him

0:51:02.120 --> 0:51:06.600
<v Speaker 1>in the military being sent overseas somewhere. And then they

0:51:06.600 --> 0:51:09.959
<v Speaker 1>take notice of this one particular detail, which is that

0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:14.880
<v Speaker 1>there is this meme he posts of fucking Tom Hardy

0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:20.000
<v Speaker 1>from The Dark Knight and he's saying the fire rises, right,

0:51:20.040 --> 0:51:22.799
<v Speaker 1>it's that meme of him saying the fire rises, which,

0:51:22.840 --> 0:51:25.160
<v Speaker 1>of course, in like The Dark Knight is supposed to

0:51:25.239 --> 0:51:27.879
<v Speaker 1>mean like all this, like death and destruction is about

0:51:27.880 --> 0:51:30.800
<v Speaker 1>to commence. Like it's a phrase you hear in fascist

0:51:30.840 --> 0:51:33.239
<v Speaker 1>circle sometimes kind of as like a half joke. But

0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:36.680
<v Speaker 1>what was interesting about the meme wasn't so much the

0:51:36.680 --> 0:51:40.800
<v Speaker 1>meme itself, but where and when Facebook said it was posted.

0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:43.000
<v Speaker 2>He left the location Deptha on it.

0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:46.680
<v Speaker 1>He left the location on it, which was Charlottesville, Virginia,

0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:51.800
<v Speaker 1>August twelfth, twenty seventeen. So that is how they unlock

0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:54.080
<v Speaker 1>the identity of Red Beard. You know, there's a lot

0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:56.319
<v Speaker 1>more to the story in the book, and I think

0:51:57.280 --> 0:52:01.120
<v Speaker 1>I will be identifying Red Beard in a news story

0:52:01.120 --> 0:52:04.080
<v Speaker 1>somewhere soon, so we'll look out for that.

0:52:04.719 --> 0:52:07.440
<v Speaker 2>I love to hear it make Joe Platania answer for

0:52:07.480 --> 0:52:08.560
<v Speaker 2>his refusal to process.

0:52:08.640 --> 0:52:09.560
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, yea.

0:52:09.920 --> 0:52:11.680
<v Speaker 2>And it's not enough to say the victim doesn't want

0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:14.280
<v Speaker 2>to cooperate, because you don't need victim cooperation to prosecute

0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:17.520
<v Speaker 2>malicious wounding in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Sorry, Joe, you

0:52:17.560 --> 0:52:17.800
<v Speaker 2>heard it.

0:52:17.840 --> 0:52:18.239
<v Speaker 1>Hear first.

0:52:19.600 --> 0:52:21.560
<v Speaker 2>I was hooting and hollering when I got to that part.

0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:21.799
<v Speaker 1>Of the book.

0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:25.200
<v Speaker 2>I can't believe it because I had heard he had

0:52:25.280 --> 0:52:28.520
<v Speaker 2>heard through the grape vine that the prosecutor was aware

0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:30.640
<v Speaker 2>of his identity and had chosen not to prosecute. But

0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:33.280
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know his identity. So what a thrill?

0:52:33.600 --> 0:52:37.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Yeah, it was a real journey. My ex at

0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:39.640
<v Speaker 1>the time joked that there was a third person in

0:52:39.680 --> 0:52:42.040
<v Speaker 1>our relationship, and that person was red Beard, because I

0:52:42.120 --> 0:52:43.759
<v Speaker 1>was so obsessed with trying to find him.

0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:47.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean, truly, truly a white whale. Yeah, in I

0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:49.120
<v Speaker 2>guess several senses of the word.

0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:50.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah exactly.

0:52:52.040 --> 0:52:54.080
<v Speaker 2>But like I said, I promised I wouldn't take up

0:52:54.120 --> 0:52:56.200
<v Speaker 2>a ton of your time. I'm just so excited about

0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:58.520
<v Speaker 2>this book, about this story. It's not just for your

0:52:58.600 --> 0:53:01.040
<v Speaker 2>dad who doesn't know what antiva is. Yes, I thought

0:53:01.040 --> 0:53:03.560
<v Speaker 2>it was thrilling. I learned a lot about some guys

0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:05.279
<v Speaker 2>I've been thinking about for years.

0:53:05.640 --> 0:53:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Right. Yeah, that means the world to me, MOLLI thank you.

0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:12.239
<v Speaker 1>And you also have been such an important voice in

0:53:12.280 --> 0:53:14.279
<v Speaker 1>these spaces in helping me out over the year, so

0:53:14.840 --> 0:53:15.640
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate it.

0:53:15.840 --> 0:53:18.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm so thrilled. Thank you so much for coming on.

0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:21.760
<v Speaker 2>People can pre order the book To Catch a Fascist

0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:24.480
<v Speaker 2>The Fight to Expose the Radical Right by Christopher Matthias.

0:53:24.960 --> 0:53:27.080
<v Speaker 2>You can pre order it now from Simon and Schuster

0:53:27.160 --> 0:53:30.240
<v Speaker 2>and it comes out February third, wherever you buy your books.

0:53:30.600 --> 0:53:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Don't buy it at Amazon. I'm going to make sure

0:53:33.560 --> 0:53:36.120
<v Speaker 2>my local anarchist bookstore has put it in order for it.

0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:38.560
<v Speaker 2>You should all do the same. What else do you

0:53:38.560 --> 0:53:40.400
<v Speaker 2>want to plug? Where can people find you online?

0:53:41.040 --> 0:53:44.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? So I'm freelancing these days for different places. Guardian

0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:47.959
<v Speaker 1>MS now the Nation Slate, so look out for me there,

0:53:48.320 --> 0:53:50.960
<v Speaker 1>but you can mostly just find me on Let's Go

0:53:51.080 --> 0:53:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Matthias on Blue Sky, and I'm still on the Nazi

0:53:55.120 --> 0:53:57.360
<v Speaker 1>site but don't really post there anymore at Let's Go

0:53:57.400 --> 0:53:58.200
<v Speaker 1>Matthias as well.

0:53:58.360 --> 0:54:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Wonderful And like I said, sure you pre order that book.

0:54:01.239 --> 0:54:03.360
<v Speaker 2>It is a fun read. Buy a copy for your

0:54:03.440 --> 0:54:04.560
<v Speaker 2>dad who's scared of Antifa.

0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, please, thank thank you so much, Molly, thank you.

0:54:11.440 --> 0:54:14.040
<v Speaker 3>It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

0:54:14.120 --> 0:54:17.200
<v Speaker 3>For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

0:54:17.239 --> 0:54:20.840
<v Speaker 3>coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:24.480
<v Speaker 3>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:26.800
<v Speaker 3>now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly

0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:29.160
<v Speaker 3>in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.