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Speaker 1: Wolz Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here. I'm

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Speaker 2: your occasional host, Molly Conger, and today we're going to

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Speaker 2: be talking about something that is happening here, doxing Nazis. Specifically,

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to Christmathias about his new book, To Catch

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Speaker 2: a Fascist, The Fight to expose the Radical Right. Chris,

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Speaker 2: thanks for coming on today.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Molly, It's such a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited to talk about this book. You sent

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Speaker 2: me a copy of it recently. I don't think I

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Speaker 2: remembered until I was reading it and I talked to

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Speaker 2: you while you were writing it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes you did. Yeah, yeah, you're one of

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Speaker 1: the many, many people I talked to, and you are

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Speaker 1: quoted in the book. In fact, I can't remember if

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Speaker 1: you told it to me or if I cite it

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Speaker 1: from somewhere else. But you once compared the research that

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Speaker 1: goes into doxing unmasking Nazis to basically investigating your Instagram account,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was an amazing comparison, because you're basically saying, like,

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Speaker 1: this type of work is accessible if you've done that

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Speaker 1: type of slew thing.

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Speaker 2: Which is not something I'm admitting to doing. I got

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Speaker 2: brazy about my exes. I'm just saying it is something

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Speaker 2: many women are very good at.

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Speaker 1: It, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and they don't realize it's a transferable skill.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: But for those who don't know, christ Rhramathias has been

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Speaker 2: covering the far right for more than a decade, right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're with Huffington Post for a long time, and you've

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Speaker 2: been independent for a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I was at huff Post for like almost

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Speaker 1: fourteen years, and about ten of those I know, it's wild,

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Speaker 1: and ten of those years I was covering the far right,

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Speaker 1: which is how I ended up in Charlottesville in twenty

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Speaker 1: seventeen for Unite the Right rally, which is something Molly

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Speaker 1: and I have talked a lot about before. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: after I got back from Charlottesville, my editor at the

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Speaker 1: time was like, this is your beat now covering the

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Speaker 1: far right. So I was kind of like among this

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Speaker 1: like initial through of like digital media journalists who suddenly

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Speaker 1: found themselves on the like the right wing extremism beat.

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Speaker 1: And pretty quickly, you know, I realized while I was

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Speaker 1: trying to unmask people in the far right, that there

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Speaker 1: were already people doing that work and they were anti

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Speaker 1: fascist activists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so to prepare for today, I listened to

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Speaker 2: a couple of interviews you've done about the book so far.

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Speaker 2: It comes out first week of February.

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Speaker 1: February third. Yeah, We're we're close. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was listening to those interviews, and I was thinking about,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is a different audience, Like you don't

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Speaker 2: need to explain to people who listened to it could

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Speaker 2: happen here what antifa is or what docing is. Yes,

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Speaker 2: but I think the book very delicately and unapologetically explains

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Speaker 2: those things to people who might be afraid of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that was the entire intent of the book,

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Speaker 1: and I'm so glad you picked up on that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think I kind of imagined writing this book for

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Speaker 1: my parents, for like kind of you know, boomer liberals,

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Speaker 1: if you will, or centrists and other people just I

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Speaker 1: think that have a lot of misapprehensions about antifa, understandably,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the kind of the goal of the

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Speaker 1: book was to to demystify what antifa is, explain it

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Speaker 1: to a wider audience, and to make kind of more

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Speaker 1: radical politics that Antifa represents more palatable to a wider audience.

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Speaker 1: And the way I tried to do that was to

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Speaker 1: make the book a bit of a thriller so that

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Speaker 1: was accessible, and make it into like a spy narrative.

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Speaker 1: And I'm hoping that the very kind of average reader

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Speaker 1: will be able to dive into this and come out

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Speaker 1: understanding more radical leftist politics that maybe wasn't accessible to

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Speaker 1: them before.

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Speaker 2: That's such a hard needle to threat, because like, I

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Speaker 2: could give this book to my dad, right right, but

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Speaker 2: I also enjoyed reading it.

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Speaker 1: Yay, good for the listener.

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Speaker 2: You should go out and get this. It's not just

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Speaker 2: for your dads. You will like it to the cold open, right,

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Speaker 2: Like the introductory chapter starts sort of in media res

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Speaker 2: with your framework of the book. Right, this Vincent Washington,

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Speaker 2: this infiltrator inside Patriot Front. And the thing is I

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Speaker 2: know about Vincent Washington. I read the leaks that Vincent

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Speaker 2: was responsible for. I was actually the one who told

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Speaker 2: Thomas Rousseau in person about the leak.

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Speaker 1: What I didn't know that book?

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, for the listener, Vincent Washington is not a

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Speaker 2: real person. Surely is a real person, but that's not

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Speaker 2: his real name, yes, right, So within Patriot Front they

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Speaker 2: all get a pseudonym and then their last name is

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Speaker 2: like their state. So Vincent Washington was a man whose

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Speaker 2: name is not Vincent, who might be from Washington, and

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Speaker 2: he infiltrated Patriot Front and he leaked all of their

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Speaker 2: rocket chats. And the day that leak was published, it

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Speaker 2: was January twenty first, twenty twenty two. Yes, it was

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Speaker 2: the day of the March for Life. Yes, So Patriot

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Speaker 2: Front was in Washington, DC, and I had a suspicion

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Speaker 2: that Patriot Front would be there. They don't announce that

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Speaker 2: the kind of ahead of time, but I was pretty

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Speaker 2: sure they were gonna be there. So I went to Washington,

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Speaker 2: d C. And we were standing outside the National Archives.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Rousseau had a little bullhorn. He had like twenty

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Speaker 2: or thirty guys and the little matching fits, and they

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Speaker 2: were so tickled with themselves. They were so tickled. People

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Speaker 2: were just falling all over themselves because these like scary

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Speaker 2: Nazis were on the street. And I actually I have

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Speaker 2: a video. I'll embed it in the final.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Molly, hey, guys, your rocket chat just

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Speaker 1: got leads on DIA secrets.

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Speaker 2: Unicorn Ryan just dropped your rocket Chat everything, all your dms,

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Speaker 2: all your dms, the Matadeia.

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Speaker 1: The video We're just gonna make fun of you, the

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Speaker 1: videos that.

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Speaker 2: You send your network leaders. Those all have Metadeia and

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Speaker 2: Unicorn Ryan is posting them right now.

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Speaker 1: Holy shit, Molly, how did I not ask you about

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Speaker 1: this for the book? I could have put this in there.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: It was incredible because, you know, Thomas Rousseau later was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's like not a big He looked scared.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, he looks scared.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I know about Vincent, but seeing the

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Speaker 2: story from his side of things was so different. Right,

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Speaker 2: Like I use these leaks all the time, but I,

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Speaker 2: you know, never get to know about the leaker.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. So again, this

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Speaker 1: is kind of my goal for the book was that

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Speaker 1: these kind of anti fascist spies, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: most Americans don't know that Antifa had so many spies

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Speaker 1: over the last ten years that were infiltrating these groups.

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Speaker 1: You know, they were the hidden hand behind thousands of

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Speaker 1: news stories because they collected all of this invaluable intelligence.

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Speaker 1: You know, hundreds and hundreds of gigabytes of private messages

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Speaker 1: that these white supremacists were sending to each other, which

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Speaker 1: then were posted on a database on Unicorn Riot, which

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Speaker 1: you know, wonderful researchers like yourself and other people used

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Speaker 1: to mine for clues and details that they could use

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Speaker 1: to identify all of these previously p sseunonymous Nazis. So

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Speaker 1: for example, you know, and I wish I could have

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Speaker 1: seen the look on Thomas's face. I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: see that video. But yeah, I mean, like they released

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Speaker 1: I believe it was like four hundred gigabytes worth of

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Speaker 1: rocket Chat messages and you know, videos and photos and.

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Speaker 2: Stuff with metadata still attached.

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Speaker 1: To them, exactly with metadata still attached to them, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get to in a second. By the way, there's

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Speaker 1: a good story about the metadata. But you know, ultimately

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Speaker 1: that data would contribute to do saying unmasking I think

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Speaker 1: about eighty members of Patriot Front, which is just remarkable,

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Speaker 1: and I think, you know, part of the story I

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Speaker 1: was trying to tell was that these anonymous anti fascists

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Speaker 1: who are doing this work, you know, anonymously, like they're

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Speaker 1: not doing it for acclaim or glory. They're doing it

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Speaker 1: because they see it as a form of community self defense.

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Speaker 1: And you know what they were doing, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think outstripped the efforts of major media, news organizations, you know,

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Speaker 1: academic institutions, civil rights organizations, oh, no doubt, law enforcement definitely,

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Speaker 1: like they were doing more work to destabilize and destroy

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Speaker 1: far right groups. Then I would argue really anyone else.

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Speaker 2: And then this subsequent work that builds off of that

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Speaker 2: by civil rights groups filing these like Large Clan Act lawsuits.

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Speaker 2: Those lawsuits don't exist without these leaks. Siins v. Kessler

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Speaker 2: doesn't exist without these leaks. The three lawsuits against Patriot

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Speaker 2: Front don't exist without these.

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Speaker 1: Leaks, Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And I've been thinking a lot about this this week,

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Speaker 2: right because it was the anniversary of Richard Spencer getting

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Speaker 2: punched in the face five years ago. Happy anniversary, Happy

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Speaker 2: anniversary to those who celebrate. And that was a beautiful moment.

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Speaker 2: And I think we can all agree that it's so

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Speaker 2: funny to watch Richard Spencer get punched in the face.

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Speaker 2: But every year you see people say and that's what

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Speaker 2: stopped him, and he was never heard from again and

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Speaker 2: he shut up forever after that.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's not true. That's not true at.

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Speaker 2: All, Like I love I love the guy that punched

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Speaker 2: him in the face, but that didn't end.

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Speaker 1: It, Yes, exactly, an infiltrator did. An infiltrator did, and

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Speaker 1: I think again, you know, kind of the goal of

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Speaker 1: the book is that most Antifa in the public imagination

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Speaker 1: is most often associated with Nazi punching, and you know,

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Speaker 1: for good reason, Like most people learned about Antifa in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen from videos like the video of Richard Spencer

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Speaker 1: getting punched. It's so interesting to look back and realize

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Speaker 1: that no one in America knew what the fuck Antifa

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Speaker 1: was before twenty seventeen, and then by the end of

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Speaker 1: that year, everyone had heard that word or knew that word.

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Speaker 2: It was the boogieman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the boogiey Man, and it was added

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Speaker 1: to the Webster Dictionary. Oxford Dictionary shortlisted it for word

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Speaker 1: of the Year. Like it's a remarkable climb for you know,

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Speaker 1: a piece of language, a word. But the like viral

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Speaker 1: videos that catapulted that word into the like lexicon kind

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Speaker 1: of obscured the bulk of the work that Antifa was doing,

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Speaker 1: which was espionage and intelligence gathering, and kind of like

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Speaker 1: the creation of this remarkable underground in formal intelligence agency

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Speaker 1: that like just completely fucked up so many fascist groups,

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Speaker 1: and like, you know, at the end of twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: Spencer famously said Antifa is winning, and he was referring

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Speaker 1: not only to getting punched everywhere he went, but to

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Speaker 1: these very efforts to identify all of his followers who

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Speaker 1: knew that if their Nazism was public, they wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: able to like operate in public life, they wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: able to hold down a job, and so on and so.

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Speaker 2: Forth, Because I guess both the Nazi punching and the

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Speaker 2: Nazi docsing they are different means to a similar end,

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Speaker 2: which is to enact a consequence, right, so that if

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Speaker 2: you're going to be a Nazi in public, there's going

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Speaker 2: to be a fucking consequence, whether that means you get

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Speaker 2: decked in the jaw, or it means all of your

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Speaker 2: neighbors know what you said online, your mom knows what

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Speaker 2: you said online, like people know who you are.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly the way I always describe it is the

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Speaker 1: digital equivalent of ripping the white hood off of a klansman.

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Speaker 1: You know, back in the eighties and nineties, anti racist

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Speaker 1: activists like with groups like Anti Racist Action, you know,

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Speaker 1: would post flyers in neighborhoods that said meet your local Nazi, right,

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Speaker 1: And what they were doing was not only warning the

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Speaker 1: community that that guy down the block is liable to

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Speaker 1: commit violence against people you know and love, but like

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Speaker 1: you were getting at, they were creating a social cost

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Speaker 1: for being a fascist. They're basically leveraging an existing societal

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Speaker 1: taboo against explicit white supremacy and fascism to ensure a consequence.

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Speaker 1: It basically says, it tells people, if you're going to

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Speaker 1: join one of these groups, we're going to name and

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Speaker 1: shame you. You're going to lose your job, your girlfriend's

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Speaker 1: going to dump you, you might lose your apartment, your family,

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Speaker 1: you know, might not want to talk to you anymore,

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Speaker 1: like you're going to be a pariah. And I think

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Speaker 1: it was really effective. I mean, you know, obviously, the

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Speaker 1: animating question of my book, of course, is what happens

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Speaker 1: when that taboo starts to disappear.

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Speaker 2: But it's not gone yet.

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Speaker 1: It's not gone.

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Speaker 2: Some of the other interviews I was looking at, people

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Speaker 2: are saying, well, is there value in this anymore? Because

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Speaker 2: you can work for the state department and be a

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Speaker 2: Nazi now, right, you can do the White House social

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Speaker 2: media be a Nazi now Like, is there still any

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Speaker 2: value in this? And I think the answer is obviously yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't wear masks if they didn't have to wear masks, yes, right,

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Speaker 2: Like some of them aren't mask off quote unquote, but

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Speaker 2: like not all of them. Patriot Front still marches in masks.

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Speaker 2: Ice agents still abduct children in masks. They're covering their

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Speaker 2: faces because they know what they're doing is wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And I think it's also as much of

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Speaker 1: a mask off moment as we might be living in

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Speaker 1: in some ways. You know, this act of research and

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Speaker 1: identifying the threat is still so important because it's you know,

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Speaker 1: preserving that societal taboo. It's still saying that that social

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Speaker 1: cost is something we still want to preserve, and it

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Speaker 1: is you know, I think very interesting that the anti

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Speaker 1: fascist work now is kind of pivoting towards identifying ICE

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Speaker 1: agents and MAGA, and the Trump and administration is horrified

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Speaker 1: of this tactic of identifying ICE agents, and for good reason,

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Speaker 1: because you know the story I try to tell my book, like,

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Speaker 1: this tactic played a really big part in destroying fascist groups.

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Speaker 1: They know that it could destroy their ethnic cleansing project.

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Speaker 1: And when you look at the polls like since Reine Good,

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Speaker 1: the favorability for ICE is just plummeted, and the support

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Speaker 1: for slogans like abolish ICE have skyrocketed. So like, that

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Speaker 1: societal taboo against kind of white SUPREMACISMSM right, that's being

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Speaker 1: displayed by ICE is definitely still there.

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Speaker 2: And you ground this sort of in the history too

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Speaker 2: in the book, in the chapter about sort of the

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Speaker 2: history of unmasking, whether that's with digital docsing or you know,

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Speaker 2: identifying members of the Klan, there was still a social

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Speaker 2: cost of being identified as a Klansman in the nineteen twenties. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like there was there was no social taboo against being

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Speaker 2: racist in the twenties, but there was a social cost

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Speaker 2: being identified as a Klansman. And I think we're we

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Speaker 2: find ourselves in the same unfortunate place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, I mean, and honestly, that was one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite parts about researching the book was diving into

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Speaker 1: the efforts to unmask the clans. Obviously there were efforts

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Speaker 1: to unmask the first Klan, but you know, one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite stories about unmasking the Second Clan took place

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Speaker 1: in Buffalo, New York. And there was actually a very

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Speaker 1: large clan chapter in Buffalo. And you know, the Second

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Speaker 1: Clan wasn't confined to the South. It was everywhere. It

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Speaker 1: was in the northeast and the midwest, right, and it

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Speaker 1: was animated not only by anti black racism and anti Semitism,

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Speaker 1: but also by anti Catholicism. They were really angry at

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Speaker 1: this new wave of immigrants from Eastern and southern Europe.

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Speaker 2: They didn't allow Catholics in until the seventies. They had

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Speaker 2: to have a big summit about it. Yes, yeah, yes,

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Speaker 2: when they decided that Catholics are white, Yes exactly.

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Speaker 1: And this is I mean, it's just it's so much

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Speaker 1: to unpack because like obviously, like my family's Catholic, and

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Speaker 1: I enjoy all of the privilege of being white. But

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Speaker 1: like you know, back then, like you know, Catholics were

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Speaker 1: you know this other.

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Speaker 2: You had a dual loyalty to this mysterious king.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So at any rate, the Klan in Buffalo

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Speaker 1: is really big. And you know, in one night they

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Speaker 1: even have this elaborate cross burning ceremony where eight hundred

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Speaker 1: people take the oath for the Klan. The mayor of Buffalo, though,

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Speaker 1: is Catholic and forms a coalition with you know, Black

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Speaker 1: Buffalonians and Jewish Buffalonians, and the mayor ends up enlisting

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Speaker 1: a spy to go undercover into the clan. One night,

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Speaker 1: the clan's secret headquarters in Buffalo are ransacked, broken into,

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Speaker 1: and ransacked, and suddenly this list of the clan's membership

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Speaker 1: ends up in the hands of the mayor. The mayor

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Speaker 1: has makes some like deft denials of any involvement, but

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Speaker 1: says that he's going to post the lists downtown. The

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Speaker 1: list is posted downtown, so many people show up to

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Speaker 1: look at the list to see who among their neighbors

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Speaker 1: is in the clan that they end up having to

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Speaker 1: move the list I believe, to a warehouse to fit

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Speaker 1: all the people so that they could form a line.

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Speaker 1: And then in the ensuing weeks and months, clan owned

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Speaker 1: businesses are boycotted and vandalized. Clansmen turn up to their

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Speaker 1: jobs only to learn that they've been fired, and before

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Speaker 1: long the klan just completely falls apart. And interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: clan headquarters down in Georgia heard about what was happening

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Speaker 1: in Buffalo and was really alarmed by it, so they

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Speaker 1: send an investigator to Buffalo to figure out who the

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Speaker 1: spy is. They figure out who the spy is, and

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Speaker 1: they get in a shootout and they both die. Jesus Christ,

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Speaker 1: which like underscores you know, the stakes of this work sometime.

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Speaker 2: Right, which is why you know the Richard Spencer puncher

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Speaker 2: and the infiltrators they do their best to stay in honan,

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Speaker 2: miss because the steaks are lethal, yeah, right, like they

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Speaker 2: will kill you back. Yes, these organizations can't survive sunshine

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Speaker 2: and they're so aware of that that. Yeah, people have

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Speaker 2: been killed for this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. You and I have both faced our share

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Speaker 1: of harassment and stuff. But there's older tales of you know,

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Speaker 1: anti racist action. Back in the nineties, two of its members,

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Speaker 1: you know, anti racist skinheads, were in Nevada, lured out

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Speaker 1: to the desert by Nazis under false pretenses, and executed

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Speaker 1: in the desert.

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Speaker 2: It was fourth of July weekend, right, Yes, we still

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Speaker 2: honor them on the fourth of July exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Their names are escaping me right.

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Speaker 2: Now, Spitting Newborn and Daniel Shrsey.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And there is a fantastic Orlando Weekly feature article

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Speaker 1: about I Believe Spit that I think is one of

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Speaker 1: the best pieces I've read in a long time that

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Speaker 1: maybe we can put in the notes. I think people

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Speaker 1: would really enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you.

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Speaker 1: Know, and then there's more recent examples of that too.

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Speaker 1: You know, over the last five years, there was three

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Speaker 1: members of the Base, which is like a neo Nazi organization. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I love that your listeners know all this.

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Speaker 2: By the way, what they could use the recap.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but know who these groups are at least,

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Speaker 1: but they were arrested for conspiring to kidnap and murder

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Speaker 1: to anti fascist activists in Georgia.

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Speaker 2: It was a couple living in a kind of remote

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Speaker 2: area and they had a very detailed plan to burn

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Speaker 2: down their home and like kill them in their beds

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Speaker 2: and kill their pets. And I mean it was Yeah,

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Speaker 2: if not for the FBI agent who was their friend,

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Speaker 2: that couple would have been killed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's it's really wild to consider.

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Speaker 2: The FBI agent was friends with the Nazis. I should

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Speaker 2: clarify there is almost always an FBI agent who is

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Speaker 2: friends with the Nazi. Yes, and that's that's the important thing, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, the these anti fascists are infiltrating these groups,

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Speaker 2: and so is the FBI right, Like a lot of

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Speaker 2: these hate groups, somebody is either a paid informant, freelance informant,

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Speaker 2: or an actual undercover agent. And that's great, I guess,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of times they will prioritize keeping their

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Speaker 2: agent undercover, yes, over using the information to protect anyone.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: And when we do it, when anti fascists do that,

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Speaker 2: we are invested in protecting our communities, not building a case.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: You don't need to take this to a grand jury.

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Speaker 2: You don't need to keep a guy in there for

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Speaker 2: twenty years waiting for the big fish. You're protecting a community, yes.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's an example of that in the book.

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Speaker 2: There was a kind of this white whale in anti

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Speaker 2: fascist circles that people were trying to identify, and he

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Speaker 2: was a leader in the Ball Patrol, which of course

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Speaker 2: is this community of Nazis that praises his mass shooters

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Speaker 2: and tries to encourage other Nazis to commit mass shootings.

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Speaker 2: And he was eventually identified as this guy named Andrew

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Speaker 2: Cassat in Sacramento, California. I remember Vic yeah, and his

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Speaker 2: student his pseudonym was Vic Mackie Yeah, and anti fascist

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Speaker 2: identified him.

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Speaker 1: I published a story at huff Post. It emerges later

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Speaker 1: that Andrew Cassat was already on like the no.

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Speaker 2: Fly lists, yes, which means the government already knew who

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Speaker 2: that fucking man was when he was he was recording

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Speaker 2: a podcast about shooting me in my womb through my vagina,

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Speaker 2: and the government already knew who he.

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Speaker 1: Was, yes, and which is just insane. And you know,

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Speaker 1: and they'll claim it's like investigative secrecy, like it's some

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Speaker 1: kind of some kind of pragmatism, but it's like for what,

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Speaker 1: like they're posing an urgent threat.

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Speaker 2: For one thing. I felt safer, And I was safer

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Speaker 2: once I knew who he was, once someone did the

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Speaker 2: work of identifying that man, and I could say with

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Speaker 2: certainty he is in California, he is not near me.

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Speaker 2: I was safer, Yes, And like anti fascist gave me

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Speaker 2: that the government did not give me that the government

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Speaker 2: would never have given me that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And I think it's also you know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, a big tenet of militant anti fascism is

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Speaker 1: that you don't trust law enforcement or the state in

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Speaker 1: this fight. And not only for the reasons we're describing now,

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Speaker 1: but there's like this historical irony in when the FBI

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Speaker 1: or law enforcement in general infiltrates white supremacist groups, they

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Speaker 1: end up finding a bunch of their buddies in these

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Speaker 1: white supremacist groups, like they end up identifying a lot

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Speaker 1: of police officers. And I think it just goes to

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Speaker 1: show the ways in which obviously law enforcement and white

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Speaker 1: supremacist groups often share similar goals.

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Speaker 2: Very much so, and sometimes once they have a guy

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Speaker 2: in there. I mean, I'm sure it happens still to

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Speaker 2: this day. We don't have the records of it happening now,

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Speaker 2: but we have the sort of sixties and seventies era

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Speaker 2: co intel pro records now that do show that. You know,

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Speaker 2: they had tons of FBI agents infiltrating the Clan, allegedly

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Speaker 2: to disrupt the clan, but that's not what they were doing.

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Speaker 2: They were steering the Clan into disrupting the civil rights move.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but I mean, most famously the Greensboro massacre,

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Speaker 1: where you know, the Clan and other white supremacist murdered

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Speaker 1: some anti fascist communist activists, and then it emerged afterwards

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Speaker 1: that an FBI agent was in the group but didn't

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Speaker 1: report kind of their plans for.

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Speaker 2: Violence over and over again. Yeah, and those five people

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Speaker 2: died for it, Yeah, exactly, which is why I will

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Speaker 2: always trust an anti fascist infiltrator over an FBI agent. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I loved the historical parallels, right, you know, so you

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Speaker 2: take dosing all the way back to the second Clan.

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Speaker 2: You know, this outside agitator narrative is not new. It's

432
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 2: something Martin Luther King Junior wrote about. You were seeing

433
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 2: that now, right, Like, you know, these people protesting their

434
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 2: outside agitators. This isn't the real community. The real community

435
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 2: wouldn't behave like this. It's the same as it ever was, right.

436
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah exactly. I mean I think you know, since

437
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 1: Antifa kind of exploded into the American consciousness, MAGA and

438
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: the rights seized on Antifa as a boogeyman, and they

439
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: trusted that kind of liberals and centrists were going to

440
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: throw Antifa under the bus, right, that like they were

441
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: going to come to Antifa's defense necessarily or even acknowledge

442
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: a lot of times that Antifa existed, And you know,

443
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 1: that allowed them to create this boogeyman of like epic proportions.

444
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: So like in twenty seventeen, after Charlottesville, a synonymous pro

445
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: Trump troll called Microchip starts a petition to declare Antifa

446
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: a quote, domestic terrorist organization. This petition goes viral, gets

447
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: like three hundred thousand signees, and Microchip ends up giving

448
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: an interview to Politico where he's very upfront and frank

449
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 1: about why he's doing this. And it's not because the

450
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: White House is actually going to declare Antifa domestic terrorist organization.

451
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 2: Oops.

452
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 1: Oops, there's no general domestic terrorist statute even do that

453
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: Antifa is not an organization. He's very explicit to say,

454
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: I'm doing this to set up Antifa as a punching

455
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: bag and to deflect and distract from the far right's

456
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: very real violence.

457
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 2: Pretty wild that he said it.

458
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: He he just said it.

459
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 2: He yeah, said it.

460
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like that he admitted it, meme, he

461
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: admitted it. He admitted yeah. Yeah. And you know, over

462
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: the next few months, every time there's a mass shooting,

463
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: you have folks like Jack Pisobic and other kind of

464
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: disinformation artists jumping in when you know there's not a

465
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: lot of information yet to blame these mass shootings on Antifa.

466
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a weird troll who still thinks I'm

467
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 2: responsible for January.

468
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: Sixth, Yes, yes, exactly, very impressive work, by the way.

469
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: You know, so they're using Antifa that way to like

470
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: distract and deflect. They're blaming Antifa for wildfires and trained

471
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: derailments and all this crazy shit. And then you know,

472
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a wall. And then in

473
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, the George Floyd uprisings happen. And you know,

474
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: the George Floyd uprisings are one of the biggest mass

475
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: uprisings in American history. It's completely grassroots and organic, and

476
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: it is led by black protesters in their communities inspired

477
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: by uprisings again in Minneapolis.

478
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 2: It's too soon for history to be repeating.

479
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: I know, it's really crazy. But Antifa, the Antifa boogeyman,

480
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: now is repurposed as kind of this outside agitator's trope

481
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: on steroids. Right, So Trump and all these maggot influencers

482
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: rush to blame Antifa for fomenting these mass uprisings, which

483
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: is absurd. Yeah. Sure, and Antifa activists were at these uprisings,

484
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: but you know, they weren't instigating them, nor would they

485
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: have the organizing power to instigate such a massive uprising

486
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: like that when the right is doing this, it's an

487
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: effort you make these uprising seem artificial or you know,

488
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: kind of astroturfed, something you can dismiss, something you can

489
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: dismiss as inorganic and artificial. And it's a way of

490
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: like distracting from the very real grievance at the heart

491
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: of these demonstrations, which is that we want cops to

492
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: stop killing black people. So throughout the summer of twenty twenty,

493
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: the Antifa panic reaches like absurd levels where you know,

494
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: there are rumors, viral rumors of busloads of Antifa roaming

495
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: the countryside looking to burn down white businesses. You know, again,

496
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: Antifa's blamed for wildfires in the West. All of a sudden,

497
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: you get these paramilitary groups, militia groups out west using

498
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: these Antifa rumors as a pretext to literally occupy town's

499
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: entire towns. You know, you have forty white dudes in

500
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: full camo and vests carrying big guns patrolling the streets

501
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: on the lookout for this Antifa menace. You know, there's

502
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: like a story about in a Sandpoint, Idaho, which is

503
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: this gorgeous town in the Panhandle, and these like group

504
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: of like high school kids go on a Black Lives

505
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: Matter march across a bridge, and all of a sudden,

506
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: they're being followed by these like middle aged white dudes

507
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: carrying AR fifteen's and calling them racial slurs Jesus Christ.

508
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: So like, basically, the Antifa boogeyman in twenty twenty is

509
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: repackaged again not only to sew division on the left

510
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: and to create this outside agitator's narrative, but to create

511
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: this pretext for vigilante violence. And there was a lot

512
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 1: of vigilante violence that occurred in twenty twenty. Of course,

513
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: you know, now we're in twenty twenty six, and we

514
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: saw last throughout last year as well, the Antifa boogeyman

515
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: again is being you know, summoned to call whoever is

516
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: the Trump regimes effort to ethnically cleanse the United States,

517
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: you know, domestic terrorists.

518
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: Right.

519
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: The enemy is simultaneously very weak and very strong in

520
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: their minds, right, like, yeah, we're all a bunch of

521
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: soy boys who live in our mom's basements, but we

522
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: were also a massive, networked, armed organization with unlimited funding.

523
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, exactly, And you know, obviously Trump claimed to

524
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: formally designate Antifa a domestic terror group in September.

525
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean anything. He did say it.

526
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: He did say it, and then he held a Antifa

527
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: round table at the White House with a lot of

528
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: our friends, Andy No Jack Pisovic. But you know, as

529
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: farcical as it all is, it's also deeply dangerous and alarming.

530
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: In September, Trump designates Antifa domestic terror group. And then

531
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: last month they murder Renee Good in cold blood and

532
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: what do they do They call her domestic terrorists after

533
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: the fact.

534
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's pretext.

535
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: It's all pretext, because if you.

536
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: Create this sort of shadowy network of unidentified agitators who

537
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: are responsible for unspecified but very bad crimes, you can

538
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: kill anyone.

539
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: Say it with them, Yeah, exactly. I wrote a piece

540
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: for The Nation recently about how there's a tendency in

541
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: response to like this escalating mega hysteria about Antifa. There's

542
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: a tendency among liberals and centrists to dismiss Antifa as

543
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: not existing, to altimately say that it's not even a thing,

544
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: or to say, well, antifa just means anti fascists, so

545
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: we're all antifa, but like, to me that entirely and

546
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: this is the point, like a like antifa is real

547
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: and it refers to like a very real subculture and

548
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: a very real tradition, militant tradition of anti fascist organizing.

549
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: And if liberals and centrists can't acknowledge that antifa is

550
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: real and come to their defense, then you know, the

551
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: people doing this work might be in some dang and

552
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: I think it's important to show them some solidarity. Right now.

553
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: It's such a complicated reality, right because it's not a group, yeah,

554
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: but it is. It's also it's a thousand different groups

555
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: of two or three or ten. It's not like a

556
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: nationwide membership organization. You know, it is just an idea,

557
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: but it's also a history, a set of tactics. Yes,

558
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: it's all of those things, and it's none of those things.

559
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: And it's different depending on who you ask and why

560
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: you're asking.

561
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And like anyone can do it, you know,

562
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: like right, like anyone can take up the mantle of

563
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: like militant anti fascist work.

564
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: A lot of people are doing it on their own.

565
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think like that's what's been so kind

566
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: of inspiring to me about Minneapolis and the uprisings, right is,

567
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, everything that community is doing right now is

568
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: a grassroots, organic response, and they're doing it because no

569
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: one else is going to do it for them. Yeah,

570
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: there's this axiom that we talk about a lot in

571
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: anti fascist spaces and anarchist spaces and black liberation movements.

572
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: You know, this axiom of we protect us, And you

573
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: know that is on very big display right now in Minneapolis,

574
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: where you have people doing what anti fascist activists we're

575
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: doing to Nazis in twenty seventeen, which is monitoring them,

576
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: following them, disrupting them. They are figuring out where they

577
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: are staying, where they're eating, and pressuring those businesses and

578
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: those hotels not to serve them. They are showing up

579
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: outside their hotels doing noise demos, they are identifying them. Yeah.

580
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, you know, we protect us is

581
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: such a you know, it's such a short, pithy phrase,

582
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: but you don't know what it means until you feel it. Yeah, right,

583
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: Like I think in Minneapolis people are feeling it. They're

584
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: protecting each other, right. You know, here in Charlottesville after

585
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: Unite the Right, you know, when local authority figures were

586
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: saying things about Antifa, you would have you know, white

587
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: grandma's get up there and say, don't you say that

588
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: about antifa, right, don't you say that about antique? You

589
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: know it is a word I didn't know a month ago,

590
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: but they saved my life. Yes, right that Once you

591
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: have experienced that kind of community solidarity, that that we

592
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: protect us ethos, once you've seen it, you know what

593
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: it means, yes, exactly, and nobody's going to tell you different.

594
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you know, it's also it's just so

595
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: clear in Minneapolis that like the Democratic Party and you know,

596
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: law enforcement, the local police are not doing anything, you know,

597
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: like they're they're not They're the.

598
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: People that are supposed to protect you, aren't going to

599
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: aren't going to The police will watch you get beaten

600
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: in the street.

601
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly, and your.

602
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: Center, your senator will say nothing when the president calls

603
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: you a terrorist.

604
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: Yes, And so you know, I think it just kind

605
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: of goes to show that this kind of militant anti

606
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: fascist tradition is it's an organic response to conditions. It

607
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: is like an insurgent form of community self defense. As

608
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: horrifying the footage coming out of Minneapolis is, especially that

609
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: photo this week of the five year old god being detained,

610
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: which I can't get out of my head, and which

611
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: makes my blood boil thinking of it.

612
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: I can't cry on the recording.

613
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it makes me want to cry too.

614
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: Something that really struck me reading the book. You know,

615
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: I was saying, like, you know, I read Vincent Washington's leaks,

616
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: but he didn't know anything about Vincent. You said that

617
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: he told you he was moved to start taking this

618
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: kind of militant action by the Portland Max train stabbing. Yeah,

619
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: I mean that stopped me in my tracks.

620
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And I think one of the more

621
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: moving parts of researching this book was realizing that all

622
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: of the anti fascists doing this work had brushes with

623
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: fascist violence in their communities, and that's what inspired them

624
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: to do it. You know, Vincent was in Portland in

625
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: twenty what year was that was seventeen May twenty seventeen, right,

626
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 1: and he gets on a train at Hollywood Station in Portland,

627
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: goes through a friend's place, has a good time, and

628
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: then later reads the news and realizes that had he

629
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: taken one train before his that left about a minute before,

630
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: he could have been in this car where this white

631
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: supremacist named Jeremy Christian started harassing to black Muslim girls.

632
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: He is haranguing them, telling them to get out of America.

633
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: When three men intervene, Jeremy Christian slashes the throats of

634
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: the three men and two of them die. Right, God,

635
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: we're gonna get emotional on this, but like one of

636
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 1: the last.

637
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: Times, this one really really gets to me. I've sort

638
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 2: of brushed up against the story and a couple of

639
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: things I've written, and I mean, it's it's one of

640
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: the most moving encounters of you know, of all of

641
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: these sort of moving pieces, right, A Nazi committing violence

642
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: against a Somali immigrant. Right, that's so relevant today, ordinary

643
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 2: people intervening. Only one of them was sort of an

644
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 2: active anti fascist in his community, the young man that survived,

645
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: Micah Fletcher. The other two were just every day dudes,

646
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: everyday dudes. They didn't have anti fascist politics. But they

647
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: saw a Nazi threatening a little girl.

648
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: Is they saw Nazi threatening a little girl and they

649
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: lost their lives. And as one of them, and I'm

650
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: blanking on his name right now, it's a Talisian. Yeah,

651
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: was lying bleeding out. He said, tell everyone on this train,

652
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: I love them. So I actually flew to Portland's a

653
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: few days later, and ended up interviewing his girlfriend. Oh

654
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: my god, you kept a journal of their relationship and

655
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: read me passages from it, and like, you know, how

656
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 1: beautiful their relationship was. They had just moved in together,

657
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: they were growing a garden together, and before he left

658
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: that morning to get on that train, he said something

659
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: really wonderful just about how much he loved her. So

660
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: you know, basically his day started and ended with these

661
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: expressions of.

662
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 2: Love that would always really rex me.

663
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, me too.

664
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: But seeing that that was sort of you know, as

665
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: someone who got into this work after seeing what happened

666
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 2: where I live, Yes, exactly, it was. It was very

667
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: striking to me that you know, it was the same

668
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 2: for Vincent. It was something that he was not involved in.

669
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 2: He didn't witness this stabbing, but he was so close

670
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: to it. It felt so intimate to him, and he

671
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: felt like, we'll have to do something.

672
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And there were so many other examples that

673
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: I name in the book of these really horrendous hate

674
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: crimes taking place in Portland and Seattle and across the

675
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest, which you know, historically has been a hub

676
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: for white supremacist organizing. So you know, for Vincent if

677
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: the threat felt very real to people he knew and loved,

678
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: which is why he decided to go undercover into Patriot

679
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: Front and to fuck up Patriot Front. He had done

680
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: some other anti fascist work before that, like kind of

681
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 1: monitoring the Proud Boys, but then, you know, I think

682
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: when the Proud Boys were on a bit of a

683
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: decline after January sixth, he started to look at groups

684
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: that operated more in the dark and were more secretive,

685
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: and he decided to focus on Patriot Front.

686
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: And how prescient at that time. I mean, Patriot Front

687
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen didn't exist in early twenty seventeen, but

688
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: sort of as they rebranded into twenty eighteen from Vanguard America.

689
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: I mean, how prescient of him to know that that

690
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: would be the place to go.

691
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, totally like that. That's where I think the

692
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: energy was and like kind of the anonymous organizing was going,

693
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: and you know, and what he did was really remarkable.

694
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot a lot of anti fascist infiltrations

695
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: and spy work is done online. You know, people just

696
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: creating a username in an avatar and they can manage

697
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: to do most of the spa from behind a computer screen.

698
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: You know, one of the more significant acts of espionage

699
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,439
Speaker 1: during this era is a guy that goes undercover into

700
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: Identity Europa and again manages to get reams and reams

701
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: of their private messages which end up on Unicorn.

702
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: Riot and that destroyed them too.

703
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: Destroyed them and you know those messages, the panic and

704
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: the discord like database ends up identifying one hundred Nazis

705
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: in Identity Europa, which is just remarkable. The anti fascist

706
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: spy that did this I talked to and he just

707
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: had to do an interview with an Identity Europa leader

708
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: to get into the group and I got to listen

709
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: to that recording and it's remarkable. But you know, after that,

710
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: he didn't have to do that much in person, you know,

711
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: method acting to pretend to be a Nazi vincent. However,

712
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: did he you know, for five months he was going hiking.

713
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: He was going hiking, man like, because Patriotfront requires you

714
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: to go on missions and hikes and you know kind

715
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: of group activities. He had to do shit in per

716
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: so like this dude was acting like deserves an oscar,

717
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: you know. So he climbed Mount Raynier for two nights

718
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: with thirteen other Nazis, Oh my god. And by the way,

719
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: at this point had earned the trust of his local

720
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: chapters so much that he was named the official photographer

721
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: and videographer for the chapter, which is just delicious.

722
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: They're so smart, smart, so smart. I mean, it's like

723
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: it's like that Simpsons bit, right, Like, videotaping this crime

724
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: spree was the best idea we ever heard. Take video

725
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 2: of everything they do. Yes, and then because of these

726
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: leaks we see that in several lawsuits against Patriot Front, right,

727
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: like they are recording video as they you know, vandalize

728
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: civil rights monuments and things like that. And then they

729
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 2: got sued in three places.

730
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's it's basically the stringer bell like, are

731
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy? You know me?

732
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: They are, and they are, so you know, eventually all

733
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: this data that Vincent collects. And by the way, so

734
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: he's in the group for about five months, He's scheduled

735
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: to go to their big march in DC, but at

736
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: the last minute claims he can't because the FBI knocks

737
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: on his door. That's a lie. He's just doing that

738
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: to scare Patriot Front. When Patriotfront gets to DC and

739
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: goes on their march. So anti fascists in DC know

740
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: their plans and they know where they are parking their

741
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: vehicles for this march. They know where patriofront is going

742
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: to march. And let's just say, some Nazi cars get redecorated.

743
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: Some tires did not make it out of DC that night.

744
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: Tires did not make it out of DC, some windshields

745
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: did not survive. There is some graffiti. Patriotfront gets back

746
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: to their U hauls first off that they used to

747
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: get transported into d C from suburban Maryland. Their U

748
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: hauls are fucked up. They get back to Maryland finally

749
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: and to see all their cars fucked up, so you know,

750
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: there is an act of sabotage. They realize they have

751
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: an infiltrator. Before long they realize that it's the man

752
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: they know is and I think they think that that's it,

753
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: like there'll be a few doses, but you know, that's it.

754
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: It didn't seem like he hacked their server. But then,

755
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: of course a month later, all of their messages end up,

756
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: everything end up on Unicorn. Riot You tell Thomas Rousseau

757
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: the news of this.

758
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: Oh that was such a treat.

759
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't. I can't believe we've never talked about this.

760
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: And over the course of the next few months years,

761
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: so many Patriot Front members are identified, and there's also

762
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: some other delicious details, like Vincent, after his infiltration is over,

763
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: he has all this Patriot Front propaganda material that he

764
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: kind of took along the way, banners, pamphlets, shields. So

765
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 1: what he does on New Year's is he makes a pire,

766
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: towering pire of this material and lights it on fire,

767
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 1: makes a really beautiful video set to old lang Syne,

768
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: and post it online Patriot Front to see, and I

769
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: think kind of warning them that, like, you know, there

770
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: might be some more coming, some more docs is coming,

771
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: some more stuff coming. And the thing is is, like

772
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: Vincent's story is just one story, one kind of remarkable

773
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: story of anti fascist spywork over the last ten years.

774
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: There are so many other stories that I heard about that,

775
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: for various reasons, I couldn't put in the book, or

776
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,959
Speaker 1: there wasn't room for in the book. But it's just, yeah,

777
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: I feel very privileged that I got to tell this

778
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: story that not many people know.

779
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: It was such a great framework for the book because

780
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 2: it's not just about that particular infiltration, but it sort

781
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 2: of provides this, this running framework, this sort of introduction

782
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: to the concept. I thought it was very nicely done.

783
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: I was excited to learn about Vincent because I have only,

784
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 2: like I said, read his leaks, and then the lawsuits

785
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: that it inspired, and then the lawsuit against him, right, yeah,

786
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 2: which was dismissed last week. Yes, it was congratulations Vincent,

787
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 2: Yes it was.

788
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: Yes. The book gets into this a little bit, but

789
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: Patriot Front does end up ascertaining what it believes is

790
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 1: Vincent's real identity, and they file a lawsuit in federal

791
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: court in Washington, and it had been ongoing for the

792
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: last year or two, but was finally dismissed in court

793
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: this week. Yeah, or last week.

794
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: So congratulations to the person who may or may not

795
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: have been Vincent. I'll never know. It didn't make it,

796
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: didn't make it to a how they get ever made

797
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: it to a hearing?

798
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: No? Yeah, yeah, I know.

799
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: I said I wouldn't take up a ton of your time,

800
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: but I can't let you go without talking about red Beard.

801
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is.

802
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: The first concrete, confirmed published docs of red Beard.

803
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, I can't believe it's taken us

804
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: this long to talk about it. Thank you for reminding me.

805
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: So for the listener. You know, we talked about how

806
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: this is this is worth that is accessible to everyone,

807
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: but it is not for everyone. In Red Beard to

808
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: someone I have read so many incorrect doxes of And

809
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: that's why it is so important. It's so important to

810
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: be sure of what you're writing, because I have read

811
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: one hundred failed oxes of this man.

812
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: Yeah this, yeah, So Redbeard to those who don't know, again,

813
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: was kind of this white whale in anti fascist circles,

814
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: white supremacist will basically insomuch as he was one of

815
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: the men filmed in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen beating DeAndre Harris.

816
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: For those that don't remember, DeAndre Harris was a black

817
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: counterprotester resident of the Charlottesville area. He was a nineteen

818
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: year old teacher for special ed students and he ends

819
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: up in a scuffle with Nazis that are leaving Charlottesville,

820
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: leaving the rally, and they end up in a parking

821
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: garage where five of them beat him while he's on

822
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 1: the pavement with metal poles and other weapons, and it's

823
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: captured on camera. I think it's, you know, one of

824
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: the more distressing things to watch from Charlottesville. I actually

825
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: happened to be in the garage at the time. Was

826
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: running towards DeAndre when one of the Nazis pulled a

827
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: gun and started waving it around, so I ducked behind

828
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: a car. By the time I got up, DeAndre was

829
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: stumbling away. There was a pool of blood on the pavement.

830
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: We I have to go back to the footage. Who

831
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: was it that pulled the gun.

832
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it is.

833
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: Oh, were you over on the police station side of

834
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: the divider.

835
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: I think I was running.

836
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 2: I had to go back and find you in the footage. Yeah,

837
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: I think the guy who pointed a gun at you

838
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: was Teddy von Nucomb.

839
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well, if we could make that idea,

840
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: that be.

841
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: Because he pulled because he pulled the gun he did.

842
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: I mean, somebody else may have pulled the gun, but

843
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 2: Teddy pulled a gun.

844
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,879
Speaker 1: Okay, I need to look at a photo of Teddy

845
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: van Nucam it all happened so fad Oh, oh it's

846
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: that guy. Yeah, Oh my god, Oh my god. Okay,

847
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: all right, let's talk about this way.

848
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: Molly here recording. After the interview was over, I went

849
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: back and reviewed that footage and my memory did fail

850
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 2: me a little bit here. I was thinking about the

851
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: right moment right after the victim and that beating has

852
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: sort of broken away from the main portion of the assault,

853
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 2: and he's running away. The video taken by Unicorn Riot

854
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: hands over to follow him, and as the camera sweeps

855
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: across the area on the other side of the parking garage,

856
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,919
Speaker 2: you can see a Nazi named Teddy von Nucom that's

857
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 2: his real name, he changed it. He takes a swing

858
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: at the victim with what looks like a baton, and

859
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: at the same moment somebody does pull a handgun, but

860
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 2: it's an unidentified man standing right behind Teddy von Nukum.

861
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: I had the image mixed up in my recollection. Sorry

862
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: about that. Teddy von Nucum, as I said in the interview,

863
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 2: is dead. He shot himself in the chest in twenty

864
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 2: twenty three, the morning he was supposed to go on

865
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: trial for fentanyl trafficking. I wish I could tell you

866
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: who the little Nazi with the gun is, but it

867
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 2: looks like there's no idea on him, not yet anyway.

868
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: Sorry for the listener. This is something I think Chris

869
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: and I have both spent probably one hundred hours looking

870
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: at frame by frame video from seventeen angles of this

871
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: particular assault for a variety of reasons. Right, right, So

872
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: it was this brutal gang assault on this young black man,

873
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: and four people went to prison for it, yes, and

874
00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 2: some people didn't.

875
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: Some people didn't. And one of them was a you know,

876
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 1: kind of a bigger white dude with a big red

877
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: beard wearing a baseball cap, who from then on earned

878
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: the nickname red Beard. There are all these like you mentioned, kind.

879
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: Of a million, just like every fat guy with a

880
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 2: red beard on the East Post has been identified as

881
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 2: red Beard.

882
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And it was like all these like kind

883
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: of amateur online sleuths. I think Sean King was in

884
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: the mix for this back in the day, you know,

885
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 1: trying to idea this guy. No one can find him.

886
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 1: A lot of people are fossily identified. The Charlottesville Police

887
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: Department can't find him. A detective puts out like a

888
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: call for help, but nothing comes in eventually. And where

889
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: my book kicks off in this story is there's a

890
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: group of anti fascist researchers called Ignite the Right that

891
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: is dedicated to identifying every Nazi that turned up in

892
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: Charlottesville in twenty seventeen, and they create a database of

893
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: all these photos and videos and a list of all

894
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: the people that have been identified, and the list of

895
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: names that they are identifying keeps on growing and growing,

896
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: and they're identifying some like really crazy names. Like one

897
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: of the stories I ended up doing was about a

898
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: police officer who was working as Richard Spencer's personal John

899
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: Donnelly security guard in Charlottesville. So they're doing a lot

900
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: of really significant docs is like that, but they still

901
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: can't find Red Beard. Eventually, they decide to use facial recognition,

902
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: which is interesting. You know, obviously I think anti fascists

903
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: out of principle are opposed to facial recognition software. But

904
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: I think, you know, you kind of can't show up

905
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: to a gunfight with a knife kind of situation.

906
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: What that's still I think is not enough in this case, right,

907
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: because the commercially available facial recognition software that you know,

908
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: the average non law enforcement person would have access to

909
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: really struggles with round faces like his and big beards.

910
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: So he's got a big beard and a hat and

911
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: his face is very round, and so it's going to

912
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: pull a lot of just sort of round faced redheads.

913
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: Yes exactly, and so like either you know, there's a

914
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 1: it's a very important and anti fascist work. A facial

915
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: recognition hit is never one hundred percent. You have to

916
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: corroborate it.

917
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: It's not enough.

918
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: So they finally use facial recognition for Red Beard and

919
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: they get a hit. And the hit is a baby faced,

920
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: beardless like nineteen year old white dude in a army

921
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: uniform at a at a base in Georgia and he's

922
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: about to shake the hand of President George W. Bush.

923
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: And the reason he's photographed for this is because Bush

924
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 1: is making a visit to this military base. I believe

925
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: it's Fort Benning to announce his troop surge in Iraq,

926
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: so a lot of these people are about to be

927
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: sent off to his war.

928
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 2: And then he brought the war home.

929
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: And then he brought the war. Oh man, Yeah, brought

930
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: the war home. And then so the anti fascist zoom

931
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: in on this photo, but the name tag is Blori,

932
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: so they can't figure out who Red Beard is yet.

933
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: To make a long story short, I end up filing

934
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: a public information request to the George W. Bush Library

935
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: in Texas, right.

936
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 2: Because they would have had to vet everyone who was there, Yes, exactly,

937
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: and if the president's yeah.

938
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: And you know, my angle on it is that I

939
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: ask for higher resolution photos, we get the higher resolution

940
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: photos and zoom in and sure enough there is his

941
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 1: last name, Hilman. Now all we have is the last name.

942
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: So there's a lot more work to do. These anti

943
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: fascists go through military yearbooks, they don't find anything. They

944
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: go through so many social media accounts until eventually, one

945
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 1: day they see a Facebook account that belongs to a

946
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: man named Jay Heilman.

947
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 2: It's crazy he still had Facebook all these years later.

948
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: Oh, it's it's wild. And there are photos of him

949
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: in the military being sent overseas somewhere. And then they

950
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,959
Speaker 1: take notice of this one particular detail, which is that

951
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: there is this meme he posts of fucking Tom Hardy

952
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: from The Dark Knight and he's saying the fire rises, right,

953
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: it's that meme of him saying the fire rises, which,

954
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: of course, in like The Dark Knight is supposed to

955
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 1: mean like all this, like death and destruction is about

956
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: to commence. Like it's a phrase you hear in fascist

957
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: circle sometimes kind of as like a half joke. But

958
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: what was interesting about the meme wasn't so much the

959
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: meme itself, but where and when Facebook said it was posted.

960
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: He left the location Deptha on it.

961
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: He left the location on it, which was Charlottesville, Virginia,

962
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: August twelfth, twenty seventeen. So that is how they unlock

963
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: the identity of Red Beard. You know, there's a lot

964
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: more to the story in the book, and I think

965
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: I will be identifying Red Beard in a news story

966
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: somewhere soon, so we'll look out for that.

967
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 2: I love to hear it make Joe Platania answer for

968
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 2: his refusal to process.

969
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yea.

970
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 2: And it's not enough to say the victim doesn't want

971
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 2: to cooperate, because you don't need victim cooperation to prosecute

972
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: malicious wounding in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Sorry, Joe, you

973
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: heard it.

974
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: Hear first.

975
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 2: I was hooting and hollering when I got to that part.

976
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: Of the book.

977
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: I can't believe it because I had heard he had

978
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: heard through the grape vine that the prosecutor was aware

979
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: of his identity and had chosen not to prosecute. But

980
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 2: I didn't know his identity. So what a thrill?

981
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, it was a real journey. My ex at

982
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: the time joked that there was a third person in

983
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: our relationship, and that person was red Beard, because I

984
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: was so obsessed with trying to find him.

985
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 2: I mean, truly, truly a white whale. Yeah, in I

986
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 2: guess several senses of the word.

987
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

988
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 2: But like I said, I promised I wouldn't take up

989
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: a ton of your time. I'm just so excited about

990
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: this book, about this story. It's not just for your

991
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: dad who doesn't know what antiva is. Yes, I thought

992
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 2: it was thrilling. I learned a lot about some guys

993
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about for years.

994
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, that means the world to me, MOLLI thank you.

995
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: And you also have been such an important voice in

996
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 1: these spaces in helping me out over the year, so

997
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

998
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 2: I'm so thrilled. Thank you so much for coming on.

999
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 2: People can pre order the book To Catch a Fascist

1000
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: The Fight to Expose the Radical Right by Christopher Matthias.

1001
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 2: You can pre order it now from Simon and Schuster

1002
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 2: and it comes out February third, wherever you buy your books.

1003
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: Don't buy it at Amazon. I'm going to make sure

1004
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 2: my local anarchist bookstore has put it in order for it.

1005
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 2: You should all do the same. What else do you

1006
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 2: want to plug? Where can people find you online?

1007
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: Yeah? So I'm freelancing these days for different places. Guardian

1008
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,959
Speaker 1: MS now the Nation Slate, so look out for me there,

1009
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: but you can mostly just find me on Let's Go

1010
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: Matthias on Blue Sky, and I'm still on the Nazi

1011
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 1: site but don't really post there anymore at Let's Go

1012
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: Matthias as well.

1013
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 2: Wonderful And like I said, sure you pre order that book.

1014
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: It is a fun read. Buy a copy for your

1015
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 2: dad who's scared of Antifa.

1016
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: Yes, please, thank thank you so much, Molly, thank you.

1017
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

1018
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

1019
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 3: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1020
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

1021
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 3: now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly

1022
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 3: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.