1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:22,170 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is the final episode of a three part series. 2 00:00:22,530 --> 00:00:25,210 Speaker 1: You could appreciate it on a standalone basis, but if 3 00:00:25,210 --> 00:00:28,370 Speaker 1: you've not heard episodes one and two, you might prefer 4 00:00:28,450 --> 00:00:30,850 Speaker 1: to listen to them first. And please be aware that 5 00:00:30,890 --> 00:00:34,970 Speaker 1: this episode of Cautionary Tales contains some upsetting descriptions of 6 00:00:35,010 --> 00:00:41,610 Speaker 1: a concentration camp in Nazi Germany. As the men from 7 00:00:41,650 --> 00:00:45,650 Speaker 1: the US Third Armored Division approached the prison camp at 8 00:00:45,730 --> 00:00:51,770 Speaker 1: Nordhausen in central Germany, they knew that something terrible awaited them. 9 00:00:52,050 --> 00:00:57,410 Speaker 1: They could smell it rotting flesh, they could hear it, 10 00:00:57,530 --> 00:01:03,370 Speaker 1: the strange groaning, rising and falling. But nothing could truly 11 00:01:03,490 --> 00:01:06,850 Speaker 1: have prepared them for what they would see that April 12 00:01:06,930 --> 00:01:08,890 Speaker 1: day in nineteen forty five. 13 00:01:10,010 --> 00:01:15,450 Speaker 2: Emaciated, ragged shaped souse fever bright eyes waited passively, even 14 00:01:15,530 --> 00:01:18,290 Speaker 2: in the same beds with their dead and dying comrades, 15 00:01:18,650 --> 00:01:23,090 Speaker 2: too weak to move. The combined cries of these unfortunates 16 00:01:23,210 --> 00:01:27,250 Speaker 2: was a fabric of moans and whimpers, of delirium and 17 00:01:27,370 --> 00:01:31,930 Speaker 2: outright madness. Here and there a single shape tuttered about, 18 00:01:32,010 --> 00:01:34,250 Speaker 2: walking slowly like a man dreaming. 19 00:01:35,250 --> 00:01:38,770 Speaker 1: There was no sign of the guards, just a pile 20 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:46,210 Speaker 1: of smoldering corpses and a few, very few survivors. As 21 00:01:46,290 --> 00:01:49,450 Speaker 1: the scale of the atrocity began to dawn on the 22 00:01:49,490 --> 00:01:54,850 Speaker 1: American soldiers, the division commander radioed for medical assistance and 23 00:01:54,930 --> 00:01:58,130 Speaker 1: gave orders for the photographers to gather as much evidence 24 00:01:58,170 --> 00:02:02,690 Speaker 1: as they could of the hellish scene and evidence of 25 00:02:02,730 --> 00:02:08,570 Speaker 1: something else too, because next to the concentration camp, the 26 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:13,490 Speaker 1: American soldiers found a network of large tunnels full of 27 00:02:13,650 --> 00:02:20,090 Speaker 1: tools and partially assembled rockets. The soldiers had discovered the 28 00:02:20,410 --> 00:02:26,370 Speaker 1: evil heart of the V two manufacturing program. Enslaved laborers 29 00:02:26,890 --> 00:02:33,490 Speaker 1: worked to death or left to staff. Werner von Brown's rockets, 30 00:02:33,610 --> 00:02:36,090 Speaker 1: as we've heard over the course of this series, were 31 00:02:36,170 --> 00:02:40,410 Speaker 1: the culmination of a decade long mega project for Hitler's 32 00:02:40,450 --> 00:02:44,690 Speaker 1: new German army. The rocket program had sucked an ever 33 00:02:44,810 --> 00:02:49,370 Speaker 1: greater share of Germany's scarce resources into the effort. It 34 00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:53,930 Speaker 1: was the largest weapons project of the Nazi regime. Technologically, 35 00:02:54,410 --> 00:02:59,330 Speaker 1: the V two rocket was a miracle. Economically and militarily 36 00:02:59,890 --> 00:03:03,570 Speaker 1: it was a disaster, a hugely expensive way to deliver 37 00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:07,930 Speaker 1: one ton of explosive at a time. Usually missing military 38 00:03:07,970 --> 00:03:12,850 Speaker 1: targets had often missing any target at all. The V 39 00:03:12,930 --> 00:03:18,450 Speaker 1: two bombings killed about five thousand civilians. Housewives queuing for 40 00:03:18,490 --> 00:03:22,610 Speaker 1: a sauce pern at a Woolworth store in London, movie 41 00:03:22,610 --> 00:03:26,370 Speaker 1: lovers watching a film at the Rex Cinema in Antwerp. 42 00:03:27,170 --> 00:03:31,490 Speaker 1: Revelers at an engagement party in an Islington pub. It 43 00:03:31,570 --> 00:03:36,530 Speaker 1: was a cruel, spiteful weapon which actually hurt Germany's chances 44 00:03:36,530 --> 00:03:40,890 Speaker 1: in the war. But there's a striking claim about the 45 00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:45,330 Speaker 1: V two. Indeed, hearing this statistic is the reason I 46 00:03:45,410 --> 00:03:50,850 Speaker 1: started researching this story. It's that far fewer people died 47 00:03:50,970 --> 00:03:55,730 Speaker 1: in V two attacks than died building the rocket in 48 00:03:55,810 --> 00:04:01,290 Speaker 1: the first place. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening to 49 00:04:01,450 --> 00:04:31,490 Speaker 1: cautionary tales. The original base for building the V two rocket, 50 00:04:31,770 --> 00:04:35,450 Speaker 1: pain and Munda, founded in nineteen thirty seven, had been 51 00:04:35,570 --> 00:04:41,650 Speaker 1: a worker's paradise with modern family homes, sports facilities, leisure clubs, 52 00:04:42,010 --> 00:04:46,250 Speaker 1: well kept paths through the nearby forest and a beach resort. 53 00:04:46,570 --> 00:04:51,010 Speaker 1: Pay was excellent. When the German war effort began, the 54 00:04:51,050 --> 00:04:54,730 Speaker 1: normal stringency didn't apply to the pain and Munda workers. 55 00:04:55,090 --> 00:04:58,330 Speaker 1: They were sent home for Christmas and New Year. In 56 00:04:58,410 --> 00:05:03,570 Speaker 1: February nineteen forty three, when the Nazi regime announced total 57 00:05:03,650 --> 00:05:07,850 Speaker 1: war and decreed that German industrial working hours would run 58 00:05:07,890 --> 00:05:12,650 Speaker 1: from six am to six pm. Painna Munda's scientific director, 59 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:18,490 Speaker 1: Werner von Brown, ignored them. One Paina Munda engineer recalls 60 00:05:18,570 --> 00:05:23,170 Speaker 1: von Brown's response, Painamunda would run on shorter shifts. 61 00:05:23,770 --> 00:05:26,770 Speaker 3: We are involved with research, not mass production. 62 00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:31,690 Speaker 1: Von Brown sounds like the kind of enlightened boss anyone 63 00:05:31,730 --> 00:05:37,130 Speaker 1: would want. But his declaration was totally disingenuous. Painna Munda 64 00:05:37,330 --> 00:05:40,290 Speaker 1: was a research center, but it was also home to 65 00:05:40,370 --> 00:05:45,330 Speaker 1: the single largest factory yet built in Europe. Of course, 66 00:05:45,370 --> 00:05:49,450 Speaker 1: they were involved with mass production. So how did the 67 00:05:49,530 --> 00:05:54,450 Speaker 1: V two manufacturing system change from the utopia of Painamunda 68 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:58,570 Speaker 1: to the hell of the concentration camp the US Army 69 00:05:58,690 --> 00:06:05,410 Speaker 1: found near Naudhausen. The British bombed Painamunda in August nineteen 70 00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:11,450 Speaker 1: forty three. After that, the head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, 71 00:06:11,730 --> 00:06:17,650 Speaker 1: got involved. The SS was Nazi Germany's paramilitary organization, with 72 00:06:17,730 --> 00:06:20,530 Speaker 1: a leading role in the regime's reign of terror and 73 00:06:20,570 --> 00:06:24,450 Speaker 1: the Nazi genocide, and Himmler hoped to bring the V 74 00:06:24,490 --> 00:06:29,650 Speaker 1: two program under his control. He proposed that V two 75 00:06:29,850 --> 00:06:34,930 Speaker 1: manufacturing be moved somewhere safer from attack. Payna Mundo was 76 00:06:34,970 --> 00:06:38,650 Speaker 1: a coastal facility, a good place to test rockets and 77 00:06:38,690 --> 00:06:42,170 Speaker 1: a very pleasant place for von Brown's scientists to spend 78 00:06:42,210 --> 00:06:48,250 Speaker 1: their time, but vulnerable to more bombing raids. Himmler's alternative 79 00:06:48,690 --> 00:06:53,410 Speaker 1: was the opposite, an underground site near Naordhausen, right in 80 00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:57,730 Speaker 1: the center of Germany. This new site came to be 81 00:06:57,810 --> 00:07:02,490 Speaker 1: called Mittelwack or Central Works. It was an old gypsum 82 00:07:02,570 --> 00:07:07,330 Speaker 1: mine dramatically expanded by the addition of two huge tunnels, 83 00:07:07,690 --> 00:07:10,970 Speaker 1: each big enough to a would eate twin railway tracks 84 00:07:11,170 --> 00:07:15,290 Speaker 1: right through the mountain, and the workers in this secret 85 00:07:15,570 --> 00:07:21,890 Speaker 1: underground lair slave labor prisoners from the Dora Mittelbaugh concentration 86 00:07:22,050 --> 00:07:26,330 Speaker 1: camp nearby, the camp that the Third Armoured Division would 87 00:07:26,330 --> 00:07:32,490 Speaker 1: eventually liberate. In the previous episodes, I described the extraordinary 88 00:07:32,530 --> 00:07:37,770 Speaker 1: cost of the V two program in money, fuel, liquid, oxygen, aluminium, 89 00:07:37,890 --> 00:07:41,730 Speaker 1: and other scarce resources. But let me quote for a 90 00:07:41,810 --> 00:07:46,370 Speaker 1: moment the historian Michael Neufeld in his book The Rocket 91 00:07:46,770 --> 00:07:51,090 Speaker 1: and the Reich. The real cost must be measured in 92 00:07:51,290 --> 00:07:56,570 Speaker 1: human lives and suffering. By October nineteen forty three, there 93 00:07:56,570 --> 00:08:01,010 Speaker 1: were four thousand prisoners in the tunnel, all male and 94 00:08:01,130 --> 00:08:06,210 Speaker 1: predominantly Russian, Polish and French. By the end of November, 95 00:08:06,330 --> 00:08:11,730 Speaker 1: there were perhaps eight thousand prisoners living up underground. The 96 00:08:11,770 --> 00:08:16,730 Speaker 1: supervisor of the Mittelvik construction was a monstrous SS officer 97 00:08:16,970 --> 00:08:20,530 Speaker 1: named Hans Kamler. He was the man who'd built the 98 00:08:20,570 --> 00:08:23,930 Speaker 1: gas chambers at Auschwitz, in which more than a million 99 00:08:24,050 --> 00:08:28,330 Speaker 1: Jews had been murdered. Now Kamler was in charge of 100 00:08:28,410 --> 00:08:32,410 Speaker 1: blasting the tunnels to build an underground rocket factory. He 101 00:08:32,530 --> 00:08:36,530 Speaker 1: blocked the construction of accommodation barracks for these enslaved men. 102 00:08:37,490 --> 00:08:39,490 Speaker 3: Pay no attention to the human cost. 103 00:08:39,890 --> 00:08:42,810 Speaker 1: Kamla told his staff the work must go ahead, and 104 00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:47,330 Speaker 1: in the shortest possible time, French resistance leader Jean Michel 105 00:08:48,010 --> 00:08:51,610 Speaker 1: was imprisoned at Dora Mittelbaugh and put to work in 106 00:08:51,650 --> 00:08:56,650 Speaker 1: the tunnels. Jean Michel later described the vicious abuse and 107 00:08:56,690 --> 00:09:00,010 Speaker 1: the beatings that the terrified prisoners suffered at the hands 108 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:04,010 Speaker 1: of their guards, and he recalled the deafening sound of 109 00:09:04,050 --> 00:09:09,930 Speaker 1: the underground factory. The noise bores into the brain and 110 00:09:10,090 --> 00:09:14,530 Speaker 1: shears the nerves. That demented rhythm lasts for fifteen hours. 111 00:09:15,330 --> 00:09:18,570 Speaker 1: Arriving at the dormitory, we collapse onto the rocks, onto 112 00:09:18,570 --> 00:09:23,210 Speaker 1: the ground. The capos press us on those behind, trample 113 00:09:23,250 --> 00:09:28,330 Speaker 1: over their comrades. Soon, over a thousand despairing men, at 114 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:31,970 Speaker 1: the limit of their existence and racked with thirst, lie there, 115 00:09:32,290 --> 00:09:36,970 Speaker 1: hoping for sleep, which never comes. There were no toilets. 116 00:09:37,730 --> 00:09:40,730 Speaker 1: The men had to sit instead on planks, resting on 117 00:09:40,890 --> 00:09:45,330 Speaker 1: half oil drums. Despite the frequent addition of chlorine. As 118 00:09:45,370 --> 00:09:49,250 Speaker 1: the drums filled up, the spread of disease was inevitable, 119 00:09:49,770 --> 00:09:54,810 Speaker 1: and the stink was appalling. Before long, twenty to twenty 120 00:09:54,890 --> 00:09:59,970 Speaker 1: five men were dying each day in the tunnels from exhaustion, disease, 121 00:10:00,650 --> 00:10:07,810 Speaker 1: cold starvation, or beatings. The chief of Nazi munitions, Albert Spear, 122 00:10:08,330 --> 00:10:13,170 Speaker 1: visited at the end of nineteen forty three. In his memoirs, 123 00:10:13,410 --> 00:10:17,330 Speaker 1: he claims to have set everything straight, improving the food 124 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:20,730 Speaker 1: and sanitation in order to reduce what he describes as 125 00:10:20,810 --> 00:10:26,410 Speaker 1: an extraordinarily high mortality rate. But while Spier liked to 126 00:10:26,410 --> 00:10:30,130 Speaker 1: take credit for making improvements at Mittelwerk at the time, 127 00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:33,690 Speaker 1: he was quick to write to the murderous Hans Kamler 128 00:10:33,970 --> 00:10:37,570 Speaker 1: to congratulate him on getting the underground factory running in 129 00:10:37,850 --> 00:10:40,530 Speaker 1: just two months, which far. 130 00:10:40,530 --> 00:10:44,090 Speaker 3: Exceeds anything ever done in Europe and is unsurpassed even 131 00:10:44,130 --> 00:10:45,490 Speaker 3: by American standards. 132 00:10:46,410 --> 00:10:50,930 Speaker 1: The better conditions didn't last anyway. Soon enough, the SS 133 00:10:51,050 --> 00:10:56,930 Speaker 1: Guards were killing prisoners suspecting rebellion or sabotage. In January 134 00:10:57,050 --> 00:11:00,810 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, according to later evidence. 135 00:11:00,890 --> 00:11:05,130 Speaker 3: The mass hangings began. Up to fifty seventy forties a 136 00:11:05,210 --> 00:11:08,890 Speaker 3: day were hung an electric crane at the tunnel, lifted 137 00:11:08,930 --> 00:11:12,170 Speaker 3: to twelve prisoners at a time, hands behind their backs, 138 00:11:12,290 --> 00:11:15,530 Speaker 3: a piece of wood in their mouths. All prisoners had 139 00:11:15,530 --> 00:11:17,050 Speaker 3: to watch these mass hangings. 140 00:11:17,850 --> 00:11:22,530 Speaker 1: It was a hellish place. By early in nineteen forty five, 141 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:26,450 Speaker 1: the number of Jewish prisoners at Dora began to increase. 142 00:11:27,370 --> 00:11:31,010 Speaker 1: Dead or dying prisoners were being brought in as Auschwitz 143 00:11:31,050 --> 00:11:35,450 Speaker 1: and other camps further east were closed down. Supplies of 144 00:11:35,530 --> 00:11:39,610 Speaker 1: food were patchy, and the conditions had deteriorated so badly 145 00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:43,370 Speaker 1: that the crematorium couldn't keep pace with the death toll. 146 00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:49,290 Speaker 1: The SS Guards started burning the corpses on outdoor pires. 147 00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:53,690 Speaker 1: By the time the US third Armoured Division reached the 148 00:11:53,770 --> 00:11:58,690 Speaker 1: Dora Mittelbough camp in April nineteen forty five, the SS 149 00:11:58,730 --> 00:12:03,690 Speaker 1: Guards had fled. A fire was still burning, heaped with 150 00:12:03,970 --> 00:12:09,570 Speaker 1: partially cremated corpses. A final bitter tragedy was that the 151 00:12:09,610 --> 00:12:13,050 Speaker 1: camp had been hit by an Allied bombing raid, which 152 00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:17,730 Speaker 1: killed an unknown number of prisoners, possibly hundreds. At least 153 00:12:18,010 --> 00:12:21,930 Speaker 1: twelve thousand people had died in the camp and even 154 00:12:22,010 --> 00:12:26,450 Speaker 1: more on forced marches towards or away from it. Only 155 00:12:26,490 --> 00:12:31,890 Speaker 1: two one hundred and fifty prisoners remained alive. Nearby was 156 00:12:31,930 --> 00:12:38,530 Speaker 1: the underground factory of Mittelwerk, still full of partially assembled missiles. 157 00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:40,090 Speaker 3: But where was the. 158 00:12:39,930 --> 00:12:43,810 Speaker 1: Scientific director of the V two program? Then A Von 159 00:12:43,890 --> 00:12:59,210 Speaker 1: Brown cautionary tales will return after the break. At the 160 00:12:59,210 --> 00:13:03,050 Speaker 1: start of nineteen forty five, Von Brown had still been 161 00:13:03,090 --> 00:13:07,130 Speaker 1: based at Paina Munda, far from the underground factory and 162 00:13:07,170 --> 00:13:11,210 Speaker 1: the concentration camp. But as the Soviets closed in from 163 00:13:11,210 --> 00:13:14,770 Speaker 1: the east and the Americans, British and French from the west, 164 00:13:15,530 --> 00:13:18,850 Speaker 1: that would change. He would later say. 165 00:13:19,450 --> 00:13:23,010 Speaker 3: Ten orders lay on my desk. Five threatened me with 166 00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:26,850 Speaker 3: immediate execution if we moved ourselves from that spot. Five 167 00:13:27,090 --> 00:13:29,410 Speaker 3: stated that I would be shot if we did not move. 168 00:13:30,730 --> 00:13:34,010 Speaker 1: Von Brown liked to tell this story of escaping under 169 00:13:34,090 --> 00:13:38,770 Speaker 1: cover of contradictory orders, but the truth was that Hans Kamler, 170 00:13:39,250 --> 00:13:42,010 Speaker 1: now one of the most powerful men in the Third Reich, 171 00:13:42,570 --> 00:13:47,050 Speaker 1: instructed him to relocate to the underground factory at mittelveak. 172 00:13:47,930 --> 00:13:52,130 Speaker 1: Von Brown obeyed. Von Brown also liked to weave a 173 00:13:52,210 --> 00:13:55,930 Speaker 1: tale of daring, bluffs and intrigue as he and his 174 00:13:56,050 --> 00:14:00,610 Speaker 1: team smuggled equipment and secret documents away from Painamunda and 175 00:14:00,650 --> 00:14:05,050 Speaker 1: to a hidden location. He said much less about how 176 00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:09,530 Speaker 1: that maneuver was accomplished. The shipment was a come by 177 00:14:09,570 --> 00:14:14,850 Speaker 1: documents on SS headed stationery signed by a senior SS 178 00:14:14,850 --> 00:14:22,130 Speaker 1: officer namely Werner von Brown. Professor von Brown also bore 179 00:14:22,210 --> 00:14:25,970 Speaker 1: the title of Major von Brown of the SS, and 180 00:14:26,010 --> 00:14:30,650 Speaker 1: wearing his SS uniform, he wielded his full authority as 181 00:14:30,690 --> 00:14:35,570 Speaker 1: an officer of one of history's most murderous organizations. On 182 00:14:35,730 --> 00:14:39,050 Speaker 1: arrival at the mittelvec Major von Brown took lodgings in 183 00:14:39,090 --> 00:14:42,970 Speaker 1: a beautiful house ten miles southwest of the underground factory. 184 00:14:43,890 --> 00:14:46,690 Speaker 1: The house had previously been the home of a Jewish 185 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:52,050 Speaker 1: factory owner. Von Brown crisscrossed the region, searching for and 186 00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:56,690 Speaker 1: confiscating workshops and factories and even schools to accommodate a 187 00:14:56,810 --> 00:15:01,650 Speaker 1: last push in the manufacture of the V two. On 188 00:15:01,730 --> 00:15:05,210 Speaker 1: the twelfth of March nineteen forty five, the pressure of 189 00:15:05,290 --> 00:15:07,810 Speaker 1: work caught up with him and his chauffeur. 190 00:15:09,090 --> 00:15:12,650 Speaker 3: The driver, out of exhaustion after having driven through two nights, 191 00:15:13,130 --> 00:15:15,450 Speaker 3: fell asleep at the wheel. At the speed of about 192 00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:19,370 Speaker 3: one hundred kilometers an hour, the car flew through the 193 00:15:19,410 --> 00:15:23,370 Speaker 3: air and landed after about a forty meter flight. I 194 00:15:23,570 --> 00:15:26,490 Speaker 3: was sleeping and awoke only during the flight because the 195 00:15:26,610 --> 00:15:28,290 Speaker 3: tire noise suddenly stopped. 196 00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:34,130 Speaker 1: Von Brown broke his arm in two places and shattered 197 00:15:34,130 --> 00:15:38,970 Speaker 1: his shoulder. The wreck was spotted by a passing car, which, 198 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:44,010 Speaker 1: by sheer coincidence, contained two colleagues from Payna Munda. Von 199 00:15:44,090 --> 00:15:47,410 Speaker 1: Brown and his chauffeur were rushed to hospital, where Von 200 00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:51,330 Speaker 1: Brown remained for several weeks before returning to the middelvac 201 00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:57,490 Speaker 1: By now the American Army was closing in. Von Brown 202 00:15:57,570 --> 00:16:01,450 Speaker 1: and his army boss fell to Dornberger received orders from 203 00:16:01,490 --> 00:16:06,130 Speaker 1: Hans Kamler to evacuate again. The ess showed up to 204 00:16:06,290 --> 00:16:10,010 Speaker 1: enforce the order, and Von Brown door Waornberger and the 205 00:16:10,050 --> 00:16:14,450 Speaker 1: rest left the Middleveck and the concentration camp behind them 206 00:16:14,850 --> 00:16:18,770 Speaker 1: a week before it was liberated by the third Armoured Division. 207 00:16:20,050 --> 00:16:22,610 Speaker 1: The top five hundred people from the V two project 208 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:25,730 Speaker 1: were to rush south to the beautiful and remote little 209 00:16:25,770 --> 00:16:30,290 Speaker 1: town of Oberamagau and the Bavarian Alps, ostensibly to keep 210 00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:34,530 Speaker 1: them safe from the American forces. But von Brown and 211 00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:38,890 Speaker 1: Dornberger realized that Kamler might have something else in mind. 212 00:16:39,730 --> 00:16:43,690 Speaker 1: If he murdered the top five hundred scientists, managers, and 213 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:47,890 Speaker 1: engineers who'd worked on the V two, the rocket's technological 214 00:16:47,970 --> 00:16:52,490 Speaker 1: secrets would be forever hidden from the Americans and the Soviets. 215 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:57,290 Speaker 1: After the V two leadership arrived at the scenic mountain town, 216 00:16:57,570 --> 00:17:01,770 Speaker 1: their fears only grew. They were housed in a barracks 217 00:17:01,850 --> 00:17:07,250 Speaker 1: surrounded by barbed wire and SS guards, but Kamler himself 218 00:17:07,450 --> 00:17:11,170 Speaker 1: soon dashed off on some mission, leaving Von Brown to 219 00:17:11,250 --> 00:17:13,690 Speaker 1: work his charm on Kamler's deputy. 220 00:17:14,850 --> 00:17:17,890 Speaker 3: Are you not worried, Storm Banfura, that these barracks are 221 00:17:17,930 --> 00:17:19,930 Speaker 3: an easy target for the American bombers? 222 00:17:20,370 --> 00:17:21,570 Speaker 2: What do you mean, Professor? 223 00:17:21,970 --> 00:17:25,170 Speaker 3: Just imagine it is clearly a military target and the 224 00:17:25,210 --> 00:17:28,770 Speaker 3: Luftwaffe is no longer able to protect us. One or 225 00:17:28,810 --> 00:17:31,450 Speaker 3: two bombs in the right place could kill us all 226 00:17:32,090 --> 00:17:35,250 Speaker 3: and end a Furi's dream of a super weapon. Indeed, 227 00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:37,290 Speaker 3: you don't want to be the man in charge when 228 00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:41,770 Speaker 3: the Fura's dreams are frustrated, do you surely not? It 229 00:17:41,850 --> 00:17:44,930 Speaker 3: might be cleverer if we were to disperse to nearby homes. 230 00:17:45,210 --> 00:17:48,610 Speaker 3: There is plenty of accommodation in ETL Fagrant and Garmash 231 00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:52,610 Speaker 3: Patent Kirschen, and when Obergrupen fiohor Kamler returns, we can 232 00:17:52,650 --> 00:17:56,410 Speaker 3: all be ready for duty with an hour's notice. Much safer, 233 00:17:56,690 --> 00:17:57,290 Speaker 3: don't you think. 234 00:17:58,530 --> 00:18:03,250 Speaker 1: The hapless deputy hesitated for a long moment, and then, 235 00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:08,290 Speaker 1: as if sent by Von Brown's guardian angel, a group 236 00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:14,210 Speaker 1: of American fighters roared low over ober Ammergau. That swung it. 237 00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:18,090 Speaker 1: He nodded, and the scientists were given permission to disperse, 238 00:18:18,330 --> 00:18:25,210 Speaker 1: wearing civilian clothes. They didn't come back. Von Brown, Drnberger, 239 00:18:25,330 --> 00:18:30,250 Speaker 1: and a few hand picked colleagues gathered discreetly at House Ingeborg, 240 00:18:30,690 --> 00:18:35,330 Speaker 1: a hotel still operating high in the German Alps and 241 00:18:35,490 --> 00:18:39,450 Speaker 1: a safe distance from Kamler, from the oncoming allies and 242 00:18:39,530 --> 00:18:43,050 Speaker 1: from the chaos of the collapsing Nazi regime. In Berlin. 243 00:18:44,090 --> 00:18:48,170 Speaker 1: Von Brown was still in considerable pain from his broken shoulder, 244 00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:51,410 Speaker 1: but was otherwise well satisfied. 245 00:18:52,810 --> 00:18:55,330 Speaker 3: I was living royally and a ski hotel on a 246 00:18:55,410 --> 00:18:59,010 Speaker 3: mountain plateau. The French below us to the west, and 247 00:18:59,090 --> 00:19:01,890 Speaker 3: the Americans to the south. But no one, of course, 248 00:19:01,890 --> 00:19:06,730 Speaker 3: suspected we were there, so nothing happens. The most momentous 249 00:19:06,770 --> 00:19:10,650 Speaker 3: events were being broadcast over the radio. Hitler was dead, 250 00:19:11,290 --> 00:19:13,770 Speaker 3: and the hotel service was excellent. 251 00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:20,770 Speaker 1: Back at the Dora Mittelbaugh concentration camp, local German civilians 252 00:19:20,810 --> 00:19:25,770 Speaker 1: were ordered by American soldiers to bury the dead piles 253 00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:30,530 Speaker 1: of emaciated corpses men who had simply starved as they 254 00:19:30,610 --> 00:19:35,610 Speaker 1: tried to work house Ingeborg had a superb wine seller 255 00:19:35,810 --> 00:19:39,890 Speaker 1: and a gifted chef. In fact, Von Brown had only 256 00:19:39,970 --> 00:19:43,650 Speaker 1: one thing to worry about. How would he persuade the 257 00:19:43,730 --> 00:19:52,930 Speaker 1: Americans to let him switch sides. Ferner's younger brother, Magnus 258 00:19:52,970 --> 00:19:55,970 Speaker 1: von Brown, was sent out on a bicycle to find 259 00:19:55,970 --> 00:20:00,290 Speaker 1: some Americans and surrender on behalf of the group. Magnus 260 00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:02,890 Speaker 1: spoke a little English, and the hope was that as 261 00:20:02,930 --> 00:20:07,450 Speaker 1: a lone cyclist, it'd be sufficiently unintimidating to have time 262 00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:12,290 Speaker 1: to talk. Ferner felt a, Dornberger and the others waited 263 00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:17,730 Speaker 1: nervously for Magnus to return had he been taken prisoner shot. 264 00:20:18,570 --> 00:20:21,610 Speaker 1: But after a few hours, Magnus arrived with a set 265 00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:25,410 Speaker 1: of safe conduct passes and an invitation to head over 266 00:20:25,730 --> 00:20:30,690 Speaker 1: and surrender. In delight, Ferner, Dornberger, and the rest jumped 267 00:20:30,690 --> 00:20:34,410 Speaker 1: into a trio of BMW's and drove down to meet 268 00:20:34,450 --> 00:20:38,290 Speaker 1: the Americans. Von Brown was confident that they'd get a 269 00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:42,370 Speaker 1: warm welcome rather than be prosecuted for war crimes. As 270 00:20:42,370 --> 00:20:44,970 Speaker 1: he later told an American interviewer. 271 00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:48,410 Speaker 3: No, it all made sense. The veto was something we 272 00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:52,330 Speaker 3: had and new Americans didn't have. Naturally, you wanted to 273 00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:53,250 Speaker 3: know all about. 274 00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:54,250 Speaker 2: It, and he was right. 275 00:20:55,210 --> 00:20:58,490 Speaker 1: The US Army soon realized what a prize they had 276 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:02,250 Speaker 1: and laid out another fine spread for von Brown and 277 00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:07,170 Speaker 1: his colleagues to enjoy. The newspapers breathlessly reported the story. 278 00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:10,690 Speaker 1: As the leadership of the V two program were questioned 279 00:21:10,690 --> 00:21:16,890 Speaker 1: about their rocket technology. A bold future awaited who cared 280 00:21:16,930 --> 00:21:24,170 Speaker 1: about the past. Just weeks before Van Brown surrendered to 281 00:21:24,210 --> 00:21:28,250 Speaker 1: the US Army, the third Armored Division had reached the 282 00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:32,210 Speaker 1: doorra Mittelbough Concentration camp and radioed for help. 283 00:21:33,370 --> 00:21:37,970 Speaker 2: I saw rows upon rows of skin covered skeletons. Men 284 00:21:38,090 --> 00:21:41,890 Speaker 2: lay as they had starved, discolored and lying in indescribable 285 00:21:41,970 --> 00:21:46,050 Speaker 2: human filth. Their striped coats and prison numbers hung to 286 00:21:46,090 --> 00:21:48,970 Speaker 2: their frames as a last token or symbol of those 287 00:21:49,010 --> 00:21:52,570 Speaker 2: who enslaved and killed them. I noticed one girl I 288 00:21:52,610 --> 00:21:56,250 Speaker 2: would say she was about seventeen years old. She lay 289 00:21:56,290 --> 00:22:00,410 Speaker 2: where she had fallen, gangreened and naked. I choked up 290 00:22:00,970 --> 00:22:04,610 Speaker 2: and quite understand how and why anyone could do these things. 291 00:22:06,210 --> 00:22:09,810 Speaker 1: Two hundred and fifty people are rushed to emergence hospitals 292 00:22:10,010 --> 00:22:12,210 Speaker 1: that it was clear that many of the camp inmates 293 00:22:12,250 --> 00:22:17,530 Speaker 1: were so badly starved as to be beyond help. Enraged, 294 00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:21,170 Speaker 1: the Americans rounded up the men of Nordhausen to dig 295 00:22:21,290 --> 00:22:24,930 Speaker 1: graves on a plot of ground overlooking the town, carry 296 00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:29,610 Speaker 1: the dead up the hill, and bury them. The locals 297 00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:31,650 Speaker 1: claimed they had no knowledge of the camp. 298 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:34,610 Speaker 3: They always said, well, we didn't. 299 00:22:34,370 --> 00:22:36,330 Speaker 1: Know, said one American soldier. 300 00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:38,970 Speaker 3: And I'd say, you could smell it. 301 00:22:38,930 --> 00:22:45,690 Speaker 1: Couldn't you. So what did Werner von Brown know? We 302 00:22:45,730 --> 00:22:48,810 Speaker 1: can dismiss immediately the idea that he was unaware of 303 00:22:48,890 --> 00:22:52,450 Speaker 1: the use of slave labor or the conditions at Mittelveck. 304 00:22:53,170 --> 00:22:57,650 Speaker 1: Even at Paina Munda, the scientist's playground, slave labor was used. 305 00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:02,410 Speaker 1: Von Brown wrote letters discussing the administration of slave labor, 306 00:23:03,010 --> 00:23:05,970 Speaker 1: but not just at Paina Munda, but at MITTELVEK too. 307 00:23:07,290 --> 00:23:10,410 Speaker 1: Towards the end of von Brown's life, he gave an 308 00:23:10,450 --> 00:23:12,810 Speaker 1: interview about the underground minds. 309 00:23:13,770 --> 00:23:17,650 Speaker 3: Their working conditions. There were absolutely horrible. I saw the 310 00:23:17,690 --> 00:23:21,250 Speaker 3: mital work several times, once while these prisoners were blasting 311 00:23:21,250 --> 00:23:24,610 Speaker 3: new tunnels in there, and it was a pretty hellish environment. 312 00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:32,370 Speaker 1: So yes, he knew, But how culpable was he? Cautionary 313 00:23:32,370 --> 00:23:46,370 Speaker 1: tales will return in a moment. If von Brown were 314 00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:50,210 Speaker 1: alive today and trying to defend his reputation, here's what 315 00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:53,730 Speaker 1: he might say. He only ever wanted to go to 316 00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:57,170 Speaker 1: the moon, and his plan all along was to exploit 317 00:23:57,290 --> 00:24:02,330 Speaker 1: the German army's gullibility. His V two rocket was technologically brilliant, 318 00:24:02,410 --> 00:24:04,970 Speaker 1: but far too complex to be a useful weapon in 319 00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:09,010 Speaker 1: the nineteen forties. It actively damaged the German war effort 320 00:24:09,250 --> 00:24:13,690 Speaker 1: by diverting resources away from more efficient weapons. He couldn't 321 00:24:13,690 --> 00:24:17,170 Speaker 1: have done anything much to oppose the Nazi atrocities and 322 00:24:17,410 --> 00:24:21,210 Speaker 1: never forget Von Brown was once arrested by the Gestapo 323 00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:26,210 Speaker 1: and accused of treason, but this case for the defense 324 00:24:26,330 --> 00:24:30,570 Speaker 1: is full of holes. The idea that von Brown viewed 325 00:24:30,650 --> 00:24:34,330 Speaker 1: the German Army merely as an expense account is tempting, 326 00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:38,410 Speaker 1: but the main source for that claim is vn Brown himself. 327 00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:44,090 Speaker 1: Von Brown understandably liked to talk about his Gestapo interrogation 328 00:24:44,290 --> 00:24:46,930 Speaker 1: as backing up his account. As we heard in the 329 00:24:46,970 --> 00:24:51,450 Speaker 1: previous episode, he had ostensibly been arrested after an indiscretion 330 00:24:51,650 --> 00:24:53,730 Speaker 1: at a drunken party. 331 00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:56,770 Speaker 3: My feeling about the weapon is that it is aimed 332 00:24:56,770 --> 00:25:00,330 Speaker 3: at the wrong planet. Rockets are not designed to conquer 333 00:25:00,370 --> 00:25:04,250 Speaker 3: Britain or Russia. They are designed to conquer space. 334 00:25:05,330 --> 00:25:08,490 Speaker 1: After the fall of the Nazis that brush with the 335 00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:12,090 Speaker 1: Gestapo we must have felt like such a blessing in disguise, 336 00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:16,490 Speaker 1: But serious scholars of the Nazi regime know that he 337 00:25:16,530 --> 00:25:19,810 Speaker 1: was arrested as part of a power grab, not because 338 00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:24,850 Speaker 1: any treason had been proven. Michael Neufeld, von Brown's biographer, 339 00:25:25,090 --> 00:25:28,570 Speaker 1: says that the Gestapo arrest proved to be one of 340 00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:31,890 Speaker 1: the most fortunate things that ever happened to him. In 341 00:25:31,930 --> 00:25:35,770 Speaker 1: the Third Reich after the war, his defenders were able 342 00:25:35,770 --> 00:25:38,890 Speaker 1: to credit him with an anti Nazi record that he 343 00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:44,370 Speaker 1: never had. Let's be clear, Von Brown was a high 344 00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:48,730 Speaker 1: ranking SS officer who worked tirelessly to make a deadly 345 00:25:48,770 --> 00:25:52,250 Speaker 1: weapon that he knew could only be intended to obliterate 346 00:25:52,450 --> 00:25:58,810 Speaker 1: large targets, namely civilian populations. He was intimately involved in 347 00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:02,730 Speaker 1: the use of slave labor, and in correspondence he discussed 348 00:26:02,770 --> 00:26:07,850 Speaker 1: the ratio of concentration camp laborers to German specialists. In 349 00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:11,890 Speaker 1: a letter written in nineteen forty four, Von Brown describes 350 00:26:12,010 --> 00:26:16,490 Speaker 1: visiting the Buchenwald concentration camp to hunt for skilled workers 351 00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:21,570 Speaker 1: he could transfer to the Mittelwack. Vron Brown's biographer, Michael Neufeld, 352 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:25,770 Speaker 1: says that we'd simply cannot know quite how sympathetic he 353 00:26:25,850 --> 00:26:30,770 Speaker 1: was to the Nazi regime. There's little evidence of genuine enthusiasm, 354 00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:35,770 Speaker 1: but little evidence of reluctance either. What we see instead 355 00:26:36,770 --> 00:26:42,610 Speaker 1: is complicity. Von Brown writes. Neufeld was a very specific 356 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:47,170 Speaker 1: type of opportunist. He was a patriotic opportunist, willing to 357 00:26:47,250 --> 00:26:51,810 Speaker 1: accept the necessity of joining various Nazi organizations if it 358 00:26:51,810 --> 00:26:57,290 Speaker 1: would advance his career. As Neufeld explains, there were thousands 359 00:26:57,290 --> 00:27:00,970 Speaker 1: of these opportunists. Von Brown was just one of the 360 00:27:00,970 --> 00:27:05,850 Speaker 1: most senior and the most famous. No, it wasn't that 361 00:27:05,970 --> 00:27:10,410 Speaker 1: von Brown was a passionate believer in firing missiles at civilians, 362 00:27:10,970 --> 00:27:14,610 Speaker 1: or using slave labor, or any of the grotesque crimes 363 00:27:14,610 --> 00:27:17,690 Speaker 1: of the SS. It was that he didn't seem to 364 00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:22,330 Speaker 1: mind much either way. He never wanted to hurt anybody. 365 00:27:22,930 --> 00:27:26,810 Speaker 1: He just didn't care how many people were hurt. He 366 00:27:26,930 --> 00:27:31,090 Speaker 1: wanted to reach the moon. The hellish environment of the 367 00:27:31,130 --> 00:27:35,970 Speaker 1: Mittelvac and the smoking corpses at the Dora Mittelbough concentration 368 00:27:36,130 --> 00:27:42,010 Speaker 1: camp they were atrocities he was willing to ignore, and 369 00:27:42,090 --> 00:27:46,250 Speaker 1: after the war he found others willing to ignore those 370 00:27:46,290 --> 00:27:55,850 Speaker 1: atrocities as well. Within months of his VIP surrender to 371 00:27:55,850 --> 00:28:00,450 Speaker 1: the Americans, a new chapter in Verna von Brown's life began. 372 00:28:01,450 --> 00:28:04,650 Speaker 1: He traveled to the United States, not as a prisoner 373 00:28:04,690 --> 00:28:07,010 Speaker 1: of war, but to take up the offer of a 374 00:28:07,130 --> 00:28:11,170 Speaker 1: job with the US Army. He wasn't the only German 375 00:28:11,210 --> 00:28:13,890 Speaker 1: scientist to be recruited. He was simply one of the 376 00:28:13,930 --> 00:28:18,290 Speaker 1: most prominent in a cohort of sixteen hundred as the 377 00:28:18,330 --> 00:28:22,170 Speaker 1: war in Europe came to an end. US Army ordnance 378 00:28:22,210 --> 00:28:26,970 Speaker 1: officers interviewed scientists like von Brown, and as a story, 379 00:28:27,290 --> 00:28:31,010 Speaker 1: it's widely told and impossible to verify that if the 380 00:28:31,050 --> 00:28:34,770 Speaker 1: American officers decided that they wanted to recruit a scientist, 381 00:28:35,370 --> 00:28:39,250 Speaker 1: they'd attach a paper clip to his file. This was 382 00:28:39,290 --> 00:28:43,570 Speaker 1: the coded signal to investigators that any inquiries into the 383 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:49,170 Speaker 1: expert's background should be brief and should reach a favorable conclusion. 384 00:28:50,250 --> 00:28:55,410 Speaker 1: Ignoring uncomfortable facts was baked into that practice from the start, 385 00:28:56,530 --> 00:29:00,210 Speaker 1: And if the paperclip story is true, then someone had 386 00:29:00,250 --> 00:29:04,130 Speaker 1: a dark sense of humor because the recruitment operation was 387 00:29:04,170 --> 00:29:11,170 Speaker 1: eventually formalized and named Project paper Clip. When President Truman 388 00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:15,890 Speaker 1: approved Project Paperclip, he explicitly excluded anyone who was a 389 00:29:15,930 --> 00:29:18,930 Speaker 1: member of the Nazi Party and more than a nominal 390 00:29:19,050 --> 00:29:25,290 Speaker 1: participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazi militarism. 391 00:29:25,610 --> 00:29:28,290 Speaker 1: It's hard to see how von Brown clears that hurdle. 392 00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:32,090 Speaker 1: He was a high ranking SS officer and the designer 393 00:29:32,130 --> 00:29:37,450 Speaker 1: of Germany's most expensive weapon, one targeted almost exclusively at civilians. 394 00:29:38,330 --> 00:29:42,410 Speaker 1: But like Vron Brown himself, the paper Clip team clearly 395 00:29:42,450 --> 00:29:45,370 Speaker 1: decided it would be better to look the other way. 396 00:29:47,010 --> 00:29:50,930 Speaker 1: Fron Brown was asked about his SS membership. First he 397 00:29:51,010 --> 00:29:55,690 Speaker 1: denied it, then he admitted it, and then the subject 398 00:29:55,730 --> 00:30:00,490 Speaker 1: was dropped. Months earlier, fron Brown had been held by 399 00:30:00,490 --> 00:30:06,170 Speaker 1: the Gestapo, pampered, briefly interrogated, and then released to get 400 00:30:06,210 --> 00:30:09,850 Speaker 1: on with his rocketry. Thanks to friends in high places. 401 00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:16,170 Speaker 1: History was repeating itself. Some of von Brown's American interviewers 402 00:30:16,210 --> 00:30:19,450 Speaker 1: wanted to get at the truth, but higher powers decided 403 00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:24,490 Speaker 1: that his expertise were simply too valuable, and this soft 404 00:30:24,610 --> 00:30:31,090 Speaker 1: touch approach wasn't uncommon. Project paper Clip was always controversial 405 00:30:31,090 --> 00:30:35,690 Speaker 1: in America, both within and outside the US government. We're 406 00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:41,330 Speaker 1: hiring Nazis, We're giving them a path to citizenship, We're 407 00:30:41,330 --> 00:30:45,890 Speaker 1: involving them in cutting edge military projects. There were plenty 408 00:30:45,930 --> 00:30:49,970 Speaker 1: of people raising concerns, but the rising threat from the 409 00:30:50,010 --> 00:30:54,290 Speaker 1: Soviet Union was soon seen as more important. After all, 410 00:30:54,890 --> 00:30:58,650 Speaker 1: if the Americans didn't recruit these men, wouldn't the Soviets 411 00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:05,370 Speaker 1: do so instead. The atrocities at Dora Mittelbaugh were well known. 412 00:31:05,930 --> 00:31:09,450 Speaker 1: They featured in propaganda at the time, but over the 413 00:31:09,530 --> 00:31:13,810 Speaker 1: years people began to lose interest in the dreadful crimes 414 00:31:13,810 --> 00:31:17,410 Speaker 1: of the past, and it wasn't widely known until much 415 00:31:17,530 --> 00:31:22,450 Speaker 1: later just how closely some of these newly Americanized scientists 416 00:31:22,570 --> 00:31:27,490 Speaker 1: were involved in monstrous crimes, not only the concentration camp 417 00:31:27,530 --> 00:31:32,290 Speaker 1: at Dora Mittelbaugh, but in developing chemical and biological weapons 418 00:31:32,490 --> 00:31:38,010 Speaker 1: or participating in grotesque human experiments with those dark truths 419 00:31:38,090 --> 00:31:42,250 Speaker 1: buried deep the conventional wisdom was summarized in a nineteen 420 00:31:42,330 --> 00:31:45,970 Speaker 1: forty eight article by the US Senator Harry Bird. 421 00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:50,450 Speaker 3: The question discussed is not whether we like or hate 422 00:31:50,490 --> 00:31:53,290 Speaker 3: the Germans. It's a question of what and how much 423 00:31:53,370 --> 00:31:57,410 Speaker 3: these particular Germans can contribute to our scientific progress and 424 00:31:57,490 --> 00:32:01,450 Speaker 3: a highly scientific age. In my opinion, we are entitled 425 00:32:01,450 --> 00:32:05,010 Speaker 3: to exploit these talents to our best possible advantage. 426 00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:08,170 Speaker 1: Or, as Werner von Brown might have put it, it 427 00:32:08,290 --> 00:32:15,450 Speaker 1: is simply a care of milking the golden cow. Von 428 00:32:15,530 --> 00:32:19,810 Speaker 1: Brown threw himself into life in America with his typical energy. 429 00:32:20,650 --> 00:32:24,250 Speaker 1: At first, he was disheartened by how primitive and poorly 430 00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:28,330 Speaker 1: funded the US rocket program was, but over time it 431 00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:32,810 Speaker 1: became clear that he finally backed the right horse. The 432 00:32:32,970 --> 00:32:36,610 Speaker 1: US launched more than sixty V two rockets from white 433 00:32:36,730 --> 00:32:40,330 Speaker 1: sand New Mexico as they tried to understand and perfect 434 00:32:40,410 --> 00:32:44,250 Speaker 1: the technology. One high point of this operation was the 435 00:32:44,290 --> 00:32:49,810 Speaker 1: first ever photographs taken from space. Less successful was the 436 00:32:49,850 --> 00:32:53,570 Speaker 1: time a misfiring V two struck a cemetery on the 437 00:32:53,610 --> 00:32:58,210 Speaker 1: outskirts of Juarez, Mexico, much to the outrage of the Mexicans. 438 00:32:59,850 --> 00:33:03,170 Speaker 1: But von Brown no longer limited himself to military matters. 439 00:33:03,650 --> 00:33:06,370 Speaker 1: In the nineteen fifties, he worked on a series of 440 00:33:06,490 --> 00:33:11,050 Speaker 1: articles about space exploration for the popular magazine Colliers, which 441 00:33:11,090 --> 00:33:15,050 Speaker 1: reached an audience of millions that in turn reached the 442 00:33:15,090 --> 00:33:18,170 Speaker 1: attention of Walt Disney, who had already hired the one 443 00:33:18,290 --> 00:33:22,810 Speaker 1: time head of the German Society for Spaceship Travel, Philly Ley, 444 00:33:23,610 --> 00:33:27,170 Speaker 1: the man whom Von Brown had impressed back in nineteen 445 00:33:27,290 --> 00:33:32,330 Speaker 1: twenty nine with his rendition of the moonlight Sonata Lay 446 00:33:32,370 --> 00:33:36,330 Speaker 1: called Von Brown, and soon enough a deal was on. 447 00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:41,570 Speaker 1: Von Brown presented a series of educational Disney films about 448 00:33:41,610 --> 00:33:45,090 Speaker 1: space travel, which reached tens of millions when they were 449 00:33:45,130 --> 00:33:46,450 Speaker 1: broadcast on television. 450 00:33:46,530 --> 00:33:50,130 Speaker 3: I believe a practical passenger rocket could be built and 451 00:33:50,250 --> 00:33:52,610 Speaker 3: tested within ten years. 452 00:33:53,410 --> 00:33:57,210 Speaker 1: And he still had the same swashbuckling charm. In nineteen 453 00:33:57,250 --> 00:34:01,850 Speaker 1: fifty five as it had in nineteen twenty nine. After 454 00:34:01,930 --> 00:34:05,250 Speaker 1: an exhausting script session with the Disney team, one of 455 00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:07,010 Speaker 1: the producers recalls. 456 00:34:07,050 --> 00:34:09,810 Speaker 3: When he was through, he threw down his and turned 457 00:34:09,850 --> 00:34:12,530 Speaker 3: around to a piano and for ten minutes played Bach 458 00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:17,090 Speaker 3: wide open. He just rattled it off flawless. He was 459 00:34:17,130 --> 00:34:20,290 Speaker 3: a genius. He could do anything. 460 00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:25,290 Speaker 1: Indeed, he could, it seemed. Von Brown went on to 461 00:34:25,330 --> 00:34:28,450 Speaker 1: take a leading role at NASA, as did several of 462 00:34:28,490 --> 00:34:32,770 Speaker 1: his former colleagues from Payna Munda. Von Brown met President 463 00:34:32,890 --> 00:34:37,570 Speaker 1: Kennedy several times. One photograph shows them sharing an open 464 00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:41,970 Speaker 1: top limousine in nineteen sixty two. In another, they stand 465 00:34:42,250 --> 00:34:45,970 Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder looking up at the structures of Cape Canaveral, 466 00:34:46,490 --> 00:34:50,890 Speaker 1: Kennedy wearing dark brown shades while von Brown directs the 467 00:34:50,930 --> 00:34:56,410 Speaker 1: President's gaze. Sam Phillips, the director of the Apollo program, 468 00:34:56,610 --> 00:34:59,690 Speaker 1: declared that the US would not have reached the Moon 469 00:34:59,810 --> 00:35:05,090 Speaker 1: so quickly if not for Werner von Brown. Years later, 470 00:35:05,530 --> 00:35:12,010 Speaker 1: Phillips changed his mind on reflection. Without Vron Brown, the 471 00:35:12,130 --> 00:35:15,850 Speaker 1: US would not have reached the Moon at all. Von 472 00:35:15,930 --> 00:35:19,730 Speaker 1: Brown was a genius, no doubt about it, but his 473 00:35:19,930 --> 00:35:23,850 Speaker 1: ability to reshape the perceptions of those around him is 474 00:35:23,890 --> 00:35:26,930 Speaker 1: as remarkable as any of his gifts as an engineer 475 00:35:27,050 --> 00:35:31,690 Speaker 1: or a technical director. He persuaded the Nazi regime to 476 00:35:31,810 --> 00:35:35,810 Speaker 1: fall in love with an impossibly sophisticated solution to a 477 00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:40,530 Speaker 1: simple problem, how to make bombs explode in London. Despite 478 00:35:40,610 --> 00:35:43,930 Speaker 1: his youth, he controlled the largest mega project in the 479 00:35:44,050 --> 00:35:48,690 Speaker 1: Nazi wartime economy, and as with all mega projects, delivered 480 00:35:48,730 --> 00:35:53,970 Speaker 1: well over time and over budget. And despite his senior 481 00:35:54,090 --> 00:35:57,330 Speaker 1: rank in the ess and his intimate knowledge of the 482 00:35:57,410 --> 00:36:01,650 Speaker 1: crimes against humanity at the Mittelveck, he ended up paling 483 00:36:01,650 --> 00:36:07,170 Speaker 1: around with Disney and JFK. After leaving NASA, Von Brown 484 00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:10,410 Speaker 1: took a well paid corporate job near Washington, d C. 485 00:36:11,330 --> 00:36:13,970 Speaker 1: He had a swimming pool at his home in Alexandria, 486 00:36:14,410 --> 00:36:19,090 Speaker 1: a corporate driver, even a backyard observatory. He died of 487 00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:24,130 Speaker 1: cancer in nineteen seventy seven, at the age of sixty five. 488 00:36:28,250 --> 00:36:33,130 Speaker 1: A few years later, people finally started to ask serious 489 00:36:33,210 --> 00:36:37,130 Speaker 1: questions about the Middelverk and about whether Von Brown and 490 00:36:37,170 --> 00:36:40,450 Speaker 1: his V two team had been complicit in the most 491 00:36:40,610 --> 00:36:45,890 Speaker 1: appalling crimes. But the biography of Erna von Brown on 492 00:36:45,970 --> 00:36:51,130 Speaker 1: NASA's website notes simply that his responsibility for the crimes 493 00:36:51,250 --> 00:36:58,210 Speaker 1: connected to rocket production is controversial. Von Brown had moved 494 00:36:58,330 --> 00:37:05,410 Speaker 1: beyond justice. A pioneer, a Disney star, a millionaire, a genius, 495 00:37:05,610 --> 00:37:08,650 Speaker 1: a man who led a charmed life in the twentieth 496 00:37:08,650 --> 00:37:14,930 Speaker 1: century darkest hours. His gravestone reads, the heavens declare the 497 00:37:14,970 --> 00:37:20,770 Speaker 1: glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handiwork. It's 498 00:37:20,810 --> 00:37:24,850 Speaker 1: a nice thought. The divine truths of the universe are 499 00:37:24,890 --> 00:37:29,610 Speaker 1: plane for everyone to see. But there are some truths 500 00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:34,650 Speaker 1: which are far from divine, and though they're playing to see, 501 00:37:35,370 --> 00:37:51,290 Speaker 1: all too often we decide not to look. A key 502 00:37:51,370 --> 00:37:55,090 Speaker 1: source for this episode was Michael Neufeld's book Vron Brown, 503 00:37:55,570 --> 00:37:59,970 Speaker 1: Dreamer of Space, Engineer of War. For a full list 504 00:37:59,970 --> 00:38:11,530 Speaker 1: of our sources, see the show notes at Timharford dot com. 505 00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:15,250 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. 506 00:38:15,690 --> 00:38:19,010 Speaker 1: It's produced by Alice Fines with support from Marilyn Rust. 507 00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:22,050 Speaker 1: The sound design and original music is the work of 508 00:38:22,130 --> 00:38:27,010 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the scripts. It features the 509 00:38:27,050 --> 00:38:31,890 Speaker 1: voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Jemmas Saunders, 510 00:38:31,930 --> 00:38:35,650 Speaker 1: and rufus Wright. The show also wouldn't have been possible 511 00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:39,770 Speaker 1: without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Greta Cohne, 512 00:38:40,050 --> 00:38:45,410 Speaker 1: Lital Millard, John Schnaz, Eric's handler, Carrie Brody, and Christina Sullivan. 513 00:38:46,170 --> 00:38:50,810 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded 514 00:38:50,850 --> 00:38:54,610 Speaker 1: at Wardoor Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you 515 00:38:54,810 --> 00:38:59,010 Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share, rate and review, 516 00:38:59,570 --> 00:39:01,690 Speaker 1: tell your friends and if you want to hear the 517 00:39:01,730 --> 00:39:05,210 Speaker 1: show ad free, sign up for Pushkin Plus on the 518 00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:09,050 Speaker 1: show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot f 519 00:39:09,290 --> 00:39:10,770 Speaker 1: M slash plus