1 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Savor Protection of iHeartRadio. I'm Anny Reese. 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 2: And I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: for you about Pasqualina. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: Yes, any particular reason this was on your mind? 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 2: Lord, Yes, it's an Easter thing, and Easter is rapidly 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: approaching as we record this. 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: Yes, it is. I have never heard of this, but 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: it looks delicious. 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: Oh it looks I've never had it, but I had 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: heard about it, and I the cravings, the cravings. Yeah, yeah, 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: I'm mad that I'm not eating it right now. 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: It's pretty striking, like the it's beautiful, the cross sections. 13 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Well, listeners right in 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: if you've had it, if you have any recipes for it. Also, 15 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: this is going to be a bit of fun with pronunciation, 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: but we're going to do our best. Yeah. 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Part of the issue is that I'm kind of 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: bouncing back and forth between Italian and Spanish, and I 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: only know one of those languages at all, and I 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: know that both of them have very similar sounds, but 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: not always the same. 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: So here we are, Here, we are. We're gonna do 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: our best. For past episodes, we have done Egg adjacent things, 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: but not eggs, right. 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, you're correct there, Yes, all. 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: Right, we have done deviled eggs, Easter eggs, Kisha, that's 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: an older one, but we share. Yeah, meat pies and. 28 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 3: Ricata yeah yeah, yogurt, sure, yeah, yogurt. 29 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: Uh huh. Well, I guess that brings us to our 30 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: question for sure. Pasqualina? What is it? 31 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: Well, a pasqualina, often formally called a pasqualina, is a 32 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: type of savory pie made up of cheeses, fine chopped greens, 33 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: and whole cracked eggs that come out hard boiled when 34 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: they're baked in their double pastry crust. Different regions, and 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, like neighborhoods and families have different 36 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: traditions about how like flaky versus bready the crust should be, 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 2: what types of greens and cheeses you use, what other 38 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: seasonings go in there, how towering the pie should be. 39 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 2: But you're basically looking at a rich and tender and 40 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: filling pie that's vegetarian and not very fussy, but still 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: feels like a special occasion food. And indeed, it is 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: often served at holiday feast type meals, especially Easter and 43 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: surrounding holidays, it's the kind of thing that, again I 44 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: haven't had it, but from what I am understanding here, 45 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing that tastes like light and 46 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: sort of spring timey, but it's really satisfying, like the 47 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: sensation of plopping down on a sunny hill top after 48 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: a nice brisk walk. Yeah, the great things I know, 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: I know, all right. So this is originally an Italian dish. 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: The word pasqualina comes from the Italian for easter pascua, 51 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: which itself comes from the Hebrew for passover pissak, which 52 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 2: I didn't know anyway. Torta technically means cake, but yes, 53 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: we're talking about a pie here. So the crust is 54 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: most traditionally a philo type dough, like thin sheets of 55 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: flour and water, rolled out and brushed with oil, and 56 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: then stacked several sheets high, the idea being that they 57 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: crisp up all golden and flaky in the oven. I 58 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: have seen variations like using puff pastry or something more 59 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: like a tender flaky pie crust, or something more like 60 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: doe or bready. I can't tell you what to do, 61 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: and I wouldn't ever, I would not unless you're about 62 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: to poison yourself. And then I would be like probably 63 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: not that. The greens are traditionally either sharred or baby artichokes, 64 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: chopped small and cooked down until they're soft before adding 65 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: them to the pie. However, any in seasoned greens can 66 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: be used as long as they're like hardy enough to 67 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: stand up to being cooked. You know, you don't want 68 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: mush in there. You do want to squish as much 69 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 2: moisture out of them before adding them in because you 70 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: don't want the crust to get soggy during baking. The 71 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: cheese is very traditionally this Genoan fresh cheese called Prussian 72 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: sewa that I had never heard of, but it's apparently 73 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: like tart and fine grained and kind of fluffy, soft, spreadable. 74 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: If you can't get a hold of that, and you 75 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: probably cannot outside of Genoa, folks often substitute in a 76 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: mixture of ricotta and maybe yogurt or crem fresh or 77 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: something like that. Adding some whist egg will help the 78 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: cheese day fluffy in the oven. Some recipes do call 79 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: for draining the dairy before you use it. Some recipes 80 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: will add extra richness and texture from other cheeses, like 81 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: maybe grated parmesan or mozzarella, and some recipes call for 82 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: your greens and your cheese to be mixed together in 83 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: the pie crust. Some call for separate layers. Both sound delicious. 84 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 2: I can't tell you what to do. Seasonings to all 85 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: of this might include, you know, the traditional like salt 86 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: and pepper and ground nutmeg and sauteed onions chopped up 87 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: fine and or perhaps boulder. Additions like garlic, cuman, bacon, 88 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 2: or maybe sweet or spicy peppers fresh or dried. Those 89 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 2: are more common in the South American diaspora, but people 90 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 2: do all kinds of things, like I saw a recipe 91 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: with a layer of liver patie in it, which sounds amazing, 92 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: but okay, yeah, right, Also I put this in the seasonings, 93 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: but it's kind of fifty to fifty. So I've seen 94 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 2: several recipes that use bread crumbs either in the filling 95 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: mix or spread along the bottom of the crust, and 96 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: that's also to help prevent sogginess. But yeah, it's kind 97 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: of a seasoning, depending on how you do your bread crumbs, 98 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: I don't know. And then you've got those those whole eggs, 99 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: so you make little indents in the top of the filling, 100 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: and then crack the whole egg, like a whole egg 101 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: into each indent around the pie. Like the idea being 102 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: that when you slice the finished pie, you get a 103 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 2: cross section of egg in each slice, which is just 104 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 2: real pretty against the green of the greens. 105 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 106 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 2: I've never seen it without a top. Crust y'all ride 107 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 2: in let me know. 108 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. 109 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: Different variations have it baked anywhere from like really tall 110 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: in a spring form to kind of mid range and 111 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: a pie pan or cast iron skillet to almost flat 112 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: like a gallet but with a full top. Yeah, it 113 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: can be eaten warm or cool. I've seen recommendations to 114 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: eat it cool the next day because it kind of 115 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: like all the flavors have time to meld. And I've 116 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: seen it listed as like a brunch or lunch or dinner. 117 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: It is associated with the Easter, but can frequently be 118 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: found in cafes and from like street vendors anytime of 119 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: the year. 120 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds good. And I also saw a lot 121 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: of warnings of like, let it why don't you take 122 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: it out of the other one? Oh? 123 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let it cool and set up first, because 124 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: you don't want to, Yeah, because otherwise it'll all fall apart. Immediately. Absolutely, 125 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: we don't want that. No, no, no, absolutely not. Well 126 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: what about the nutrition, h depends on what you put 127 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: into it, but I mean, generally speaking, like that's a 128 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: good punch of fiber, a good punch of protein. Like 129 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: you're you're you're, you're giving yourself a really solid base. 130 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if a lot of Philo dough 131 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: and cheese is a treat, then treats are nice. 132 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: They are, and this one sounds like a nice treat. 133 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: Indeed it does, despite that we have zero numbers for you. 134 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: Sorry. Yeah, it's very I mean it's it's one of 135 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: those things that is both very regional. It has gone 136 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: other places, but just yeah, people aren't really collecting numbers 137 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: on it. 138 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it hasn't really gone like quote unquote mainstream enough 139 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: outside of like Argentina and Yuguay and Genoa for there 140 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: to be really big international numbers and attention to it. 141 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it was funny because I was sometimes 142 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: when you don't come up with as many resources as 143 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: you want, you know, you try all these other terms. 144 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: And I looked up easter pie because I was like, okay, sure, 145 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: and I found a Sicilian one that's completely different and 146 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: very meat based, but I'm assuming they're related. But yeah, 147 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 1: I think it's just very fragmented. But okay, that being said, 148 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: we do have some history for you, Oh. 149 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: We do, and we are going to get into that 150 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: as soon as we get back from a quick break 151 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: for a word from our. 152 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: Sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. 153 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 3: All right. 154 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: So, the history of meat pies are so sort of 155 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: savory filling in cased in dough traces back to ancient times, 156 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: perhaps even to ancient Mesopotamia, and it makes sense because 157 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: it's convenient food to travel with or eat on the go. 158 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: Instances of pies like this existed in ancient Egypt, Rome 159 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: and Greece, for example. The more modern version of the 160 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: Italian pie that torta, likely came up in the courts 161 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: of Naples, perhaps with influence from similar things in French cuisine. 162 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: From there, torte, which is the plural, spread across the 163 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: country with all sorts of federations. Since they were convenient 164 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 1: and could be made cheaply, they were popular amongst people 165 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: who worked in the Italian countryside and for those who 166 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of resources. Torte were filling and 167 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: they could stretch over multiple meals and feed multiple people, 168 00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: and torta pasqualina comes from this tradition, which, by the way, 169 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: like just looking at the pictures, it does look really filling. 170 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like I said, gould fill me up good 171 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: sturdy spinach and cheese pie with eggs in it? 172 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 3: Are you kidding? 173 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely. There was also likely influence from the century's 174 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: long presence of North African Muslims and parts of Spain, Portugal, 175 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: and Italy. They brought with them a lot of crops 176 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: and dishes that changed the culinary landscape. We've talked about 177 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: this a lot before. One theory is that one of 178 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: the dishes they brought with them, the savory meat pie sambusak, 179 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: directly influenced the creation of torta pascadina. But all right. 180 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: Most sources suggest that pascodina was invented in the sixteenth 181 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: century or maybe the fifteenth century, in the northwestern region 182 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: of Italy known as the Guria, possibly in the capital 183 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: of Genoa specifically. At the time, the region couldn't grow 184 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: a lot of wheat, and buying some from the outside 185 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: was expensive. With what they had, people typically used one 186 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: pound of flour to make a thin dough that was 187 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: good for torte. For the filling, meat was often expensive, 188 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: so people would use local vegetables like mushrooms, spinach, fennel, leak, 189 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: sartochoke shard, and maybe eggs if they had chicken, cheese 190 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: if they could get it. So these are the ingredients 191 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: we're seeing it, yeah, come together. The history of torta 192 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: pascalina is pretty sparse, but there are some popular legends. 193 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: There's one main one. One of the most frequently repeated 194 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: versions is that women from the region created this dish 195 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: with thirty three layers of thin dough to represent the 196 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: thirty three years of Jesus's life, traditionally ten on the 197 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: bottom and twenty three on the top. It was this 198 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: savory pie with hard bowled eggs twelve around the edges 199 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: and one in the middle to represent Jesus in the 200 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: twelve decidleles, a type of fresh cheese, fresh spring vegetables 201 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: like spinach, shorter artichokes, and spices like marjoram. It was 202 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: a very springtime dish. It had a lot of symbolism. 203 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: It made it perfect for Easter celebrations. Again, some people 204 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: have gone back and forth about this but from when 205 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: I read, it was often eaten cold and was good 206 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: for picnics. While it wasn't necessarily expensive, it was more 207 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: time consuming than your usual torte, and it was perfect 208 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: for the endoflence and an important celebration like Easter in 209 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: a largely Catholic country. And it also just looks good. 210 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: It just looks It's pretty. Yeah, it's nice looking, all right. 211 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: So very brief breakdown on some of the early ingredients. 212 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: Lauren already touched on some of this earlier. They could 213 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: all be their own episodes, some of them have already been. 214 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, briefly for the dairy pristin Sewa, which is 215 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: that acidic fresh cheese local to Laguria, was most likely used. 216 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: A very quick search suggest it first appeared in the 217 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: historical record in the fourteenth century, though it was likely 218 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: way older. You know on our cheese episodes. Oh my goodness. However, 219 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: this cheese was and remains, from what I understand, really 220 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: difficult to find outside of the region, so other cheeses 221 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: were subbed in it if folks can find it, like 222 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: ricotta that was a popular one, sometimes mixed with yogurt. 223 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, because it is such a fresh cheese, right, it 224 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: doesn't like really travel that well, so. 225 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: Exactly the green vegetable part is a little more difficult 226 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: to pin down, at least traditionally, but I read that 227 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: it was shard or spinach or artichokes, all of which 228 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: were growing in Italy by this point. Whatever green spring 229 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: vegetable that they had access to, I would imagine, let's 230 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: put it in there. As far as seasonings went, the 231 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: early versions of this dish probably included a mix of 232 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: star anis, carowet seed, nutmeg, cloves, cinnamon, and coriander, and 233 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: then eggs. We've talked about this before, but at the 234 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: time Catholics were not supposed to consume eggs during lint. 235 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: At the same time, you can't exactly tell a chicken 236 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: to stop playing eggs, so people ended up with a 237 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: lot of eggs come spring and at the end of lint. Meanwhile, 238 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: eggs were often symbolic for things like rejuvenation and rebirth, 239 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: which was a great fit both for the coming of 240 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: spring and the religious reason of the season for the 241 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: Easter celebration, the rebirth of Christ. So it's a very 242 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: symbolic dish. It did remain pretty regional for a while, 243 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: but It spread throughout Italy and parts of Europe, with 244 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: folks coming up with their own takes of it based 245 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: on what they had. Bartolomeo Scapi wrote about Torta pasquardina 246 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: in his fifteen seventy cook book, but by the nineteenth century, 247 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: the primary cookbooks about Ligurian cooking made no mention of 248 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: this dish needing to have the thirty three layers. They 249 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: mentioned it, but not the thirty three layers. 250 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of those popular legends. It's hard to 251 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: say whether anyone was actually ever doing that, or if 252 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: it's just a nice story. It's hard to say at 253 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 2: any rate. In the early nineteen hundreds there was a 254 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: lot of immigration from Italy and Spain as well to 255 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: places like Argentina and Uruguay with the rise of fascism 256 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: in Europe, so there are traditions around Pascalina there as well. 257 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: By the late like nineteen thirties or so, the dish 258 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: was like pretty entrenched in those areas. 259 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: Yes, these days people tend to use less layers and 260 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: less eggs. A lot of the articles I read were like, 261 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: just whatever layers, it's okay, do four to seven. I 262 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: don't know. Whatever you're up to. Yeah, exactly, but some 263 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: do still make it the traditional way, including traditional cooking methods. 264 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: I've read that or was a festival where people did 265 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: it until nineteen ninety four and they'll just died off. 266 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: And those who who do do it worry that the 267 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: tradition will soon be lost, like no one's going to 268 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: keep doing this anymore. But it does sound really good. 269 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, where can 270 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: I go to either find some or can I psych 271 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: myself up to make some? The question always, but yeah, 272 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: if y'all have any experience with it, or if you 273 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: went to a festival about it back in the day. 274 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: We would love to hear about that. 275 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: We absolutely would. But that's what we have to say 276 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: about Pasquald enough for now it is. 277 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: We do already have some listener mail for you, though, 278 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,239 Speaker 2: and we are going to get into that as soon 279 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: as we get back from one more quick break for 280 00:17:54,080 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors, and we're back. 281 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 3: Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with. 282 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: This May every time. 283 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 284 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: Yes, Sarah wrote, Hello from northern California, wine and wheat Country. 285 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: I don't have any fun stories to tell you, but 286 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: I have a book recommendation I think is super interesting, 287 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: and I'm including cute pet photos just because the book 288 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: is Hippie Food, How Back to the Landers, Long hairs, 289 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: and Revolutionaries Changed the Way We Eat? By Jonathan Coffman. 290 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: It traces the social history of natural and health food 291 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: movements from early twentieth century Los Angeles to macrobiotics, to 292 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: organic and farm to table restaurants to plant based raw 293 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: food or fasting slash juicing movements that are feel startingly 294 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: similar to this day. It's funny and insightful, and I'd 295 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: love to hear you do a guest interview with the 296 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: author as promised. Here are a few kitties to brighten 297 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: your day. Top photo is Frankie. Middle is Elka, eighteen 298 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: years young, but who earned the nickname Elcatraz for her 299 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: wild and wooly kitten antucks. And there was a third 300 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: photo of Marlon Brando with his cat on his shoulder 301 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: writing which, by the way, the first time I read 302 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: this email, I thought you had a cat named Marlon Brando, 303 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: and oh it was really funny. 304 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: That is a great name for a cat. 305 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: That would be good, But I mean these are also excellent, 306 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: excellent names. 307 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, absolutely, And the photos are two lovely tabby cats, 308 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: both of whom look very relaxed and happy and petible. 309 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: Yes, but I can see the chaos lying in wait. 310 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 3: Oh always that. 311 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: It's just understood. 312 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. In between the end of our history section and 313 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: the listener mail, I in fact had to kick my 314 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 2: kitten out of the recording studio because there were a 315 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: number of thuds that occurred and I was like, well, well, 316 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: no more of that. 317 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what just happened, but out you go. Yes, 318 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: let's just nit this in the bud. But yeah, we 319 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: do love we love book recommendations as well, and this 320 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: sounds really interesting. I would love to trace the just 321 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: kind of movements, those kind of health movements. 322 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no they are. They are also wild and 323 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: wild and wooly. This is true and always always super interesting. 324 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: M thank you for paying the pet tax. 325 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, and always a book recommendation. Yeah, please 326 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: give me a bigger reading list and I will maybe 327 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: get to things that aren't the Hunger Games someday. Segal wrote, 328 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: Israel has a tea bag conspiracy. In the nineteen sixties, 329 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 2: there was a law in Israel that food packages cannot 330 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: be sealed with staples. That was because sometimes the staples 331 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: fell into the food. Strangely enough, that was also applied 332 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: to tea bags even though they're not opened. This allowed 333 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 2: an Israeli tea company named Wzotski to take over the 334 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 2: market of tea in Israel. They use glue because no 335 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 2: foreign company will change its packaging for such a small market. 336 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: In nineteen nineties, there was a request to change the standard, 337 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: but the Wotski lobbyists were able to get it denied, 338 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 2: and in nineteen ninety six it got all the way 339 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: to the Israeli Supreme Court where it was reversed, and 340 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 2: since then the tea market was opened to other packaging 341 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: and companies. The sad thing is that Wazotski still controls 342 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: the market because Israelis are used to buying it, so 343 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: you'll find less varieties and less companies in Israeli stie. 344 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: As a tea lover, I make it a habit to 345 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: buy anything but Wazotski and explore other kinds. Now to 346 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 2: gafilter Fish. Gafilter Fish always brings me to the memories 347 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: of my grandmother Anya, who passed away in twenty twenty 348 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: two at the age of ninety six, even though she 349 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: grew up in the Soviet Union, who oppressed Jews and 350 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: Jewish culture. There were two Jewish cuisine dishes she knew 351 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: how to make, gafilter fish and mutza balls, which she 352 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 2: also puts some chicken inside. And we waited for the 353 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: New Year and Passover to eat the kafilter fish, which 354 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 2: she made the traditional way, meaning she filled the fish 355 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: with its meat and cooked it like this. My uncle 356 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: always ate the head of the fish. Now my aunt 357 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 2: is making experiments of making it, so we're hopeful, and 358 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: whenever we eat the store bought my mom's partner, who's 359 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 2: of Yemenite descent so didn't grow up on this, says, oh, 360 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: but the gafilter fish your mother made. I guess we'll 361 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: never have the good ones anymore, but will miss her 362 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: like she deserves to be missed. Now to flavors, My 363 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 2: theory of why store bought gafilter fish is so bad 364 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: is that it sits in the jar in the carrot juice, 365 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: so when you eat it, all you can taste is carrot. 366 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 2: Another thing about the taste is that there are differences 367 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: between the Polish Jews who make the gafilter fish and 368 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: the horse radish sweet and the Russian Jews who make 369 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 2: it spicy to hot. 370 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: There was a yuck with the. 371 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 2: Sweet one and a yum with the spicy one in 372 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 2: there to close, the stories about making the horse radish 373 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 2: for passover always sound more like a drug. 374 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: Lab than a kitchen. 375 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: Yeah that's if y'all have never grated fresh horse radish. 376 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: This is an accurate statement. It is that the fumes 377 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 2: are quite strong and you really have to mitigate them 378 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: for your own safety. Oh oh, but I love I 379 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 2: love that your grandma made the stuffed gaffilter fish. 380 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: That's so cool. 381 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 2: I had never heard of that before I did the reading. 382 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: For that episode. Yeah, that is really cool. And you 383 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: know it's sad that you won't maybe have it that 384 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: way again, but the memory lives on. 385 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, of course. 386 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. May her memory be a blessing. Absolutely, Yes, Oh, 387 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: good mats of I've never heard of putting chicken inside 388 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: of Matza balls, And now I'm like, why have I? Well, 389 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 2: I haven't I done that. Why don't you put a 390 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: little bit of good bold chicken inside of a Matza ball? 391 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: That sounds delicious, That sounds absolutely delicious, And as someone 392 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: who's never had any jarred goafil to fish, I think 393 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: your theory sounds. I think it sound. 394 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right. 395 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 2: And there's texture things that wind up when you when 396 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 2: you just have something sitting in liquid like that for 397 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: too long. There's yeah. 398 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: I also have to say I've never thought about tea 399 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: bags as much as I have during and after we 400 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: did that episode. But now some of you have written 401 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: in things about like just the way they work, the engineering, 402 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: and I've just never considered it before. But this makes 403 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: sense to me too, Like there's just different ways. We've 404 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: already read some of the listener mail about how tea 405 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: bags look in different countries. 406 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: I love that there was a regulation about it. That's yeah, 407 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: because of the staple, which hypothetically isn't going to loosen. 408 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 2: I mean you would notice, you would notice if you 409 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 2: would have to strain a number of things out of 410 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 2: your tea if the tea bags opened, if like the 411 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 2: staple came loose. 412 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I you know, safety is great. 413 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: I don't know it's true, it's true, but keep those 414 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: keep those coming in listeners. I'm really enjoying hearing about 415 00:25:52,160 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: the t bag situation in other countries, the tea bag situation. Yes, yes, 416 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: absolutely yes. Well in the meantime, thanks to both of 417 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: those listeners for writing in. If you would like to 418 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: write to us, you can. Our email is Hello at 419 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: saborpod dot com. 420 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: We're also on social media. You can find us on 421 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 2: Instagram and blue Sky at saber Pod and we do 422 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: hope to hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio. 423 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 2: Four more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit 424 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 425 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers 426 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, 427 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: and we hope that lots more good things are coming 428 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: your way.