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Speaker 1: Also media, Ah, God is dead and you, Jamie Loftus,

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Speaker 1: have killed him.

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Speaker 2: I did it. I finally did it.

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Speaker 3: You did it. You did it. Now God was a

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Speaker 3: hymn and Jamie killed him hammered in the back of.

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Speaker 2: The head, and people are going to be critical of that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, you don't know my story. And in

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Speaker 2: my sixth part mini series, in which I'm played by

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Speaker 2: Amanda Stefried, We're going to start to see my side

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Speaker 2: of the story. And I'm definitely not going to jail

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Speaker 2: for what i did.

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Speaker 3: That's good. Unlike founder of Elizabeth Holmes, who we just

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Speaker 3: found out has been sentenced to eleven point two five

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Speaker 3: years in prison. I'm kind of like, yeah, I have

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Speaker 3: mixed like I have.

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Speaker 2: Mixed feelings because it's like people don't go first of all,

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Speaker 2: the prison industrial complex in general.

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Speaker 3: No, it's it doesn't make anyone better to the extint

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Speaker 3: that there's value in the present day and putting people

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Speaker 3: in prison, it's people who are like a severe ongoing

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Speaker 3: danger and I don't see this making anything better. Like

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Speaker 3: at the same time, I hate her, so I don't

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Speaker 3: I'm not gonna it's not going to be the top injustice.

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Speaker 3: I rue today, I.

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Speaker 2: Do kind of like that her. Uh, after being exposed

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Speaker 2: as an unrepentant criminal, she's like, Oh, I think I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to kind of be like a normy girl

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Speaker 2: for a while.

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Speaker 3: And I'm I'm going to go normal and have a kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And you're like, Liz, it's too late. It's too

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Speaker 2: late for that, Liz.

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Speaker 3: You defrauded people with a fake medical device that led

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Speaker 3: folks to see to get treatment for things they didn't

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Speaker 3: have and ignore illness as they did, which is.

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Speaker 2: Bad, but before too many bodies hit the floor. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: that would have stopped.

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Speaker 3: You, but you didn't really care. You applied Steve jobs

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Speaker 3: logic to something that was not just a silly box

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Speaker 3: to keep in your pocket.

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Speaker 2: Lizzie, Lizzy, No, Lizzie, uh, Lizzy.

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Speaker 3: Again we learned also putting her in prison for you know,

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Speaker 3: probably nine years, when you consider all of the other things,

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Speaker 3: is like not gonna help anything. It'll just mean that

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Speaker 3: that kid she has grows up without a mom for

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Speaker 3: nine years, and that's not gonna make that.

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Speaker 2: It's like, it's a huge moment for many things can

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Speaker 2: be true at once. Having to hold all of those

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Speaker 2: truths and still record an episode of behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you about this.

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Speaker 3: Actually this actually will be relevant to the episode, but yes,

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Speaker 3: please please.

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Speaker 2: Really yes, Okay, this is definitely not going to be relevant,

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Speaker 2: so let's let's okay with it. I was a legal

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Speaker 2: case I was thinking about today. Was the Beanie Baby's

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Speaker 2: billionaire when he went was taken to court in twenty

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Speaker 2: thirteen for holding money in a Swiss bank account.

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Speaker 3: He so it was like a tax illegal, oh, a

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Speaker 3: tax abasion, taxivation? Try.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So he was up for as many as five

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Speaker 2: years in prison for tax evasion, and he got off

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Speaker 2: with I mean, he's a billionaire, he's never going to

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Speaker 2: suffer a consequence, right, But like, he ended up getting

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Speaker 2: a two years of probation on the ground that it

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Speaker 2: had been too publicly humiliating so he didn't have to

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Speaker 2: get to go to jail because he was too and

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Speaker 2: so farnest it was so embarrassing that he didn't have

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Speaker 2: to go to jail. What that's absolutely fucking weird.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, I'm gonna I'm going to see how far this

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Speaker 3: goes by committing murder and then having my pants fall

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Speaker 3: down and like, well judged, look, yes I did stab

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Speaker 3: that man. Forty seven times, but then everybody saw my underpants.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pee pee myself.

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Speaker 3: So I feel like that where Yeah, can we just

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Speaker 3: zero this one out?

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Speaker 1: Man?

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Speaker 2: I love the Beanie babies story so much. I'm surrounded

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Speaker 2: by my beans feelings.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's good. You do literally have one on your

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Speaker 3: shoulder right now, just like I have this rifle next

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 2: I think that we both have our comfort objects at

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Speaker 2: the ready, right.

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Speaker 3: So, Jamie, speaking of Elizabeth Holmes, because the person we're

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Speaker 3: talking about today is going to be the next story

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Speaker 3: like that. By this time next year, there probably is

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Speaker 3: going to be an HBO documentary about this guy. Oh God,

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Speaker 3: maybe Taylor Taylor Kitch could probably play him, actually, if

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Speaker 3: he wanted to. Taylor Kitch played hot David Koresh in

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Speaker 3: the Waco Show. I walked into that one. Yeah, they'd

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Speaker 3: have to give him like a belly suit or something.

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Speaker 3: That's not anti fadom, just being accurate, but he could

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Speaker 3: do it. Maybe it is.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to see this man ever again. No,

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Speaker 2: I'm mad Taylor Kitch.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to see Taylor Kitch again. You don't

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Speaker 3: want to see those cum gutters again. Unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: God, damn it, rock.

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Speaker 2: There's plenty of in this town. Robert, there's a million

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Speaker 2: com gutters. I don't need those.

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Speaker 3: Oh that that is true. But anyway through the street

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Speaker 3: that that is. That is true of Los Angeles and

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Speaker 3: no other city. Today we are talking about a guy

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Speaker 3: who absolutely never comes Sam Bankman Freed. Why do you

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Speaker 3: know this guy? Do you know this guy?

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Speaker 2: I don't know this guy.

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Speaker 3: You don't know this guy. You don't know this guy?

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Speaker 3: Have you? Have you caught any news in the last

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Speaker 3: week about how like a massive cryptocurrency exchange has collapsed plummeted?

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Speaker 3: This is that guy. Oh, this is the guy with

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Speaker 3: his like polyamorous sex ring that was running a big

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Speaker 3: crypto bank in the Bahamas and it all fell apart.

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Speaker 3: Now billions of dollars are gone.

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Speaker 2: You've lost me again.

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Speaker 3: Oh great, Okay, well I'll try to This is still breaking.

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Speaker 3: We are because this is a Thanksgiving week episode. We

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Speaker 3: only do one episode on Thanksgivings. I needed a single one,

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Speaker 3: so I just want to give everyone background on this guy.

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Speaker 3: We will we may come back to this story because

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Speaker 3: there's a lot we don't fully understand about how he

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Speaker 3: did what he did and the degree to which but

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Speaker 3: I think this guy. This guy ran a trading service

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Speaker 3: called Alameda Research and a crypto exchange. An exchange is

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Speaker 3: basically like a bank, right, It's a cross between a

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Speaker 3: bank and like a trading platform called FTX, which was

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Speaker 3: one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges in the world, and

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Speaker 3: was also considered by most people to be the most

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Speaker 3: stable and like ethical and legitimate. Right, people who were

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Speaker 3: just kind of on the outside looking at when everything

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Speaker 3: collapsed earlier this year, Right, you remember that we haven't.

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Speaker 2: Been right, I was engaged in that. It's just that

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Speaker 2: I get a lot of my news, yeah journalists on Twitter,

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Speaker 2: and they've been busy this week.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So when the when crypto like fell apart, when

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Speaker 3: a lot of crypto fell apart earlier this year, and

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Speaker 3: like a bunch of places went under, FTX was one

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Speaker 3: of the ones that stayed stable. And actually we're buying

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Speaker 3: up a bunch of like failing crypto companies to try

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Speaker 3: to like prop up the industry. They just collapsed and

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Speaker 3: like the value of all everything has been plummeting for

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Speaker 3: for the last several days. It's a big disaster. It

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Speaker 3: is very like yeah.

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Speaker 2: In in in as in words that will annoy me

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Speaker 2: as little as possible. Can you explain why FTS remained

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Speaker 2: solvent and other.

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Speaker 3: It is not solvent? Oh now why didst because they lied?

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Speaker 3: So they were they were operating the short end of

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Speaker 3: how to describe it, and we may there will be

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Speaker 3: more details to come, but at present it seems fair

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Speaker 3: to say that it was a giant Ponzi scheme where

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Speaker 3: they were they were they were taking in money, promising

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Speaker 3: unreasonable returns, using other investor money to gamble on stuff

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Speaker 3: to try to provide anyway, and it worked.

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Speaker 2: Like all the other market guys, they were they were dishonest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It is very likely. What what what

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Speaker 3: differentiates this is the scale because this is very likely

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Speaker 3: a financial crime on the leftl of what Bernie made

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Speaker 3: off did. We are talking in the ten to twenty

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Speaker 3: billion dollars, stolen a lot of money. This is a

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Speaker 3: series financial crime. I'm going in on this pretty cold.

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Speaker 3: So for the other the other kind of mass of

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Speaker 3: like touchstone of this is that it has led to

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Speaker 3: a class action lawsuit against Larry David, Shaquille O'Neal, Tom Brady,

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Speaker 3: and a number of celebrities who were all in a

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Speaker 3: Super Bowl ad for FTX.

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Speaker 2: I remember that ad Yeah, was so embarrassing for my

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Speaker 2: man Larry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So the lawsuit is basic advertise basis was a

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Speaker 3: high dollar Ponzi scheme and you guys were using your

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Speaker 3: name recognition to sell on registered securities which they were,

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Speaker 3: which they were, which they definitely were.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I just want to circle back to Shaquille O'Neal

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Speaker 2: will put his name on anything, to.

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Speaker 3: The point where to the very funny.

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Speaker 2: I worked at a haunted hay ride this year, which

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Speaker 2: we don't talk about because it was a bad idea.

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Speaker 2: But the rival what you told, bad idea?

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Speaker 3: I guess what.

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Speaker 1: I'm alive, bitch, bitch, I lived.

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Speaker 2: I lived to tell the tale. It's very unclear who

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Speaker 2: is right in the side of should I work at

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Speaker 2: a haunted hay ride or not? I still haven't really

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Speaker 2: landed on an answer point. Being our closest rival haunted

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Speaker 2: hay ride wise was Shacktoberfest. It was wow Shack themed

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Speaker 2: haunted attraction in which the only Shack related thing was

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Speaker 2: a gigantic inflatable Frankenstein that looked like Shack, which did

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Speaker 2: sound awesome.

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Speaker 3: That sounds actually like the best time anyone's ever had

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Speaker 3: Shack will put his.

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Speaker 2: Name on anything, including crypto and Halloween supportive of what

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Speaker 2: a What a King?

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Speaker 3: Probably not. I'm sure there's horrible things about Shack that

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Speaker 3: have come out that seems almost unavoidable. Anyway, Sam Bankman

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Speaker 3: Freed is the guy behind this gigantic financial crime that

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Speaker 3: is still unraveling as we do this episode. And I

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Speaker 3: want to talk about less about what happened on the exchange,

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Speaker 3: because none of us want to talk about how somebody

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Speaker 3: carries out the nuts and bolts of a cryptocurrency scam.

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Speaker 3: But I want to talk about I want to talk

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Speaker 3: about the social elements of this scam. I want to

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Speaker 3: talk about how he conned the media, how he conned celebrities,

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Speaker 3: and how he conned regulators. And I just want to

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Speaker 3: talk about also the way some of these people talked

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Speaker 3: and wrote about him, because there's a lot about I

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Speaker 3: don't know. A week or so ago, we did an

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Speaker 3: episode on The Daily Show We do what could happen

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Speaker 3: here about ethical altruism, which is, in brief, a theory that,

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Speaker 3: like the instead of trying to help people just because

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Speaker 3: they need help, you should only help people after you

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Speaker 3: consider the way to help people. That is like the

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Speaker 3: absolute most beneficial way for like the least amount of effort.

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Speaker 3: It's utilitarianism, right, how can I do the greatest good

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Speaker 3: with the resources and ways? Yeah, and it's it's the

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Speaker 3: way a lot of these like, and it's merged with

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Speaker 3: this kind of thinking towards what billionaire types called long termism.

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Speaker 3: And the gist of this is, like, it's not worthwhile

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Speaker 3: for me to do stuff like pay taxes to have

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Speaker 3: a society or guarantee like universal health care. Instead, I

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Speaker 3: should make Instead, the most ethical thing that I should

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Speaker 3: do is make as much money as I personally can

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Speaker 3: and then put that money into things that I believe

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Speaker 3: will save the world, like research to stop AIS from

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Speaker 3: killing everyone and getting to Mars and shit. It's a

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Speaker 3: way for billionairess. It's a way for billionaires and the

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Speaker 3: other mega rich to justify like continuing to do exactly

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Speaker 3: what they want and feel like they're saving the world anyway,

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Speaker 3: Sam Bag, I'm free.

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Speaker 2: The guy from Beanie Baby, you know, the beanie babies

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Speaker 2: billionaire did to improve.

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Speaker 3: The world, made a lot of beanie babies, and.

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Speaker 2: Then he bought the Four Seasons hotel and kept making

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Speaker 2: beanie babies. He didn't do shit.

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Speaker 3: That's well, you know, that's I'm fine with that compared

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Speaker 3: to these guys because they're all doing the thing where

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Speaker 3: they're pretending anyway, Sam Bankman Freed is one of these guys,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to get into that. But we did

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Speaker 3: this episode and it could happen here where he was

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Speaker 3: kind of a tangential character in this very unsettling and

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Speaker 3: insidious movement that is behind guys like Elon Musk who

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Speaker 3: are claiming to be saving the world, will just fucking

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Speaker 3: over people. And then like four days after it came out,

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Speaker 3: his entire life unraveled and his fortune disappeared overnight because

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Speaker 3: he was a giant con artist.

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Speaker 2: What a treat.

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Speaker 3: It's very funny. So that's why we're talking about him

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like thirty years old and looks like Mark

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg and David Dobrick's love child.

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Speaker 2: He's thirty years old.

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Speaker 1: I feel great about myself. Was a Mark Zuckerberg and

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Speaker 1: David doe Brick's love child.

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Speaker 3: Look, I shouldn't call anyone a schlub, but he looks

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Speaker 3: like a schlub.

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Speaker 2: I forget what David Dobrick looked like because my brain

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Speaker 2: protects myself respectfully. I understand two villains, two villains, love child.

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Speaker 3: Yeah anyway, so I uh yeah. Sam Bankman Freed was

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Speaker 3: born in nineteen at ninety two on the campus of

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Speaker 3: Stanford University, continuing a long and proud tradition of absolutely

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Speaker 3: nothing good ever coming from that hell hole. His parents

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Speaker 3: are both extremely prominent Stanford professors. His mother, Barbara, is

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Speaker 3: a lawyer her Cloak, who clerked for the Second Circuit

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Speaker 3: Court and graduated from Harvard. She founded Mind the Gap,

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Speaker 3: a somewhat shady and mysterious democratic fundraising group. I think

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Speaker 3: it's shady in that people don't exactly know where all

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Speaker 3: the money comes from or like what their goals are.

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Speaker 3: She also pinned in Shady Yeah Yeah. She also pinned

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Speaker 3: an essay in twenty thirteen that the right wing is

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Speaker 3: going nuts about because she was basically arguing that, like it,

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Speaker 3: good and evil are less a factor in what people

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Speaker 3: do than environmental factors and all that stuff. Like when

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Speaker 3: people do things that are bad, it's more often a

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Speaker 3: product of their It was kind of a oh God,

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Speaker 3: what's that fucking psychologist. It was like a Skinner type

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Speaker 3: argument where it's like, well, if people have bad inputs

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Speaker 3: in their youth, then that's going to deter And anyway,

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Speaker 3: I think that's funny. Given what happens, I'm gonna guess

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Speaker 3: she sucks at what she's she's she sucks, and so

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Speaker 3: does his dad, Joseph Bankman. Joseph is also a lawyer.

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Speaker 3: He is a graduate from Yale. His big claim to

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Speaker 3: fame was developing a proposal for an overhaul of the

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Speaker 3: California tax return system that would have filled out citizens

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Speaker 3: tax returns in advance. And I know I just said

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Speaker 3: he sucked, but actually that sounds like a good thing.

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Speaker 3: I think that that's actually a cool thing to advocate for.

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Speaker 3: The measure failed by one boat after heavy lobbying from

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Speaker 3: into it, a tax pre prep software company. Yeah, it

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Speaker 3: kind of is. It's it's total bullshit because stuff, it's

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Speaker 3: the thing everybody agrees with on paper, but nobody will

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Speaker 3: actually fight the tax prep companies, which is like, hey,

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Speaker 3: the irs like knows more or less what I make

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Speaker 3: and like knows more or less what I owe. Why

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Speaker 3: don't I just get a thing from them? Why do

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Speaker 3: I have to go through this? Like anyway, there's no need.

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Speaker 3: But it's like that's the all other countries do it

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Speaker 3: that way.

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Speaker 2: We don't, though, because there has to be a convoluted

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Speaker 2: system that's expensive and where they can charge you if

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Speaker 2: you make the tiniest mistake because you can't read size

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Speaker 2: one font well.

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Speaker 3: And more to the point, because I don't actually think

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Speaker 3: the IRS is advocating to keep it a pain in

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Speaker 3: the ass. I think it's these tax prep companies because

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Speaker 3: they have an entire industry based on charging people to

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Speaker 3: do the thing that they have to do to avoid

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Speaker 3: going to fucking prison. Anyway, I said he's an asshole,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure he is, but he was right about this,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know what to say about that. Like

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Speaker 3: all of us. Joseph is also a podcaster. He is

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Speaker 3: the host the co host of the Stanford Legal podcast.

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Speaker 2: Oh It's Horrible Times too, And he's a nerd.

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Speaker 3: If it wasn't the holiday season and I wasn't like

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Speaker 3: getting ready for friends and family and all that good stuff,

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Speaker 3: I would have listened to his podcast and we would

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Speaker 3: probably be making fun of him. But you can do

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Speaker 3: that on your own. Oh goodness, I believe.

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Speaker 2: It isn't it doesn't it feel so horrible when you

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Speaker 2: think of how many people do what we do, but

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Speaker 2: they're the worst person you've ever heard of. It's so sad,

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Speaker 2: it's embarrassing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's like, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I avoid self identifying as a podcaster as it is,

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Speaker 2: it's still not a system. But then on top of that,

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Speaker 2: they're like, oh, like what like.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you know, the only you know,

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Speaker 3: the only thing that I can compare it to is

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Speaker 3: like when I started making a living as a writer

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Speaker 3: fifteen years ago, and I would say that at like

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Speaker 3: a at like a party or something, someone asked like, well,

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Speaker 3: what do you do? And I'm like, well, I'm a writer,

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Speaker 3: and like four other people would say yeah, me too. Uh,

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Speaker 3: And then you wind up listening to everybody's pitches for

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Speaker 3: their novels that they're never going to finish. Oh I

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Speaker 3: mean so eventually I just started lying and saying that

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Speaker 3: I still worked as special at well.

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Speaker 2: I like, I mean, it's the same thing with like

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Speaker 2: if you say you're a comedian and a party, you're.

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Speaker 3: Oh god no, never never identify as a comedian and

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Speaker 3: owe me.

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Speaker 2: Too, do you? And I've done one whole open mic

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Speaker 2: and Mike was very offensive and is a comedian's job

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Speaker 2: to push boundaries and be oh talk joke.

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Speaker 3: You know how Lenny Bruce read that, read that list

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Speaker 3: of curse words? Will I just do that with slurs here?

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Speaker 3: Let me show you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like yeah, like Laine Bruce was not funny

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Speaker 2: in that period of his career, even a little. Anyways, Anyways,

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Speaker 2: our jobs are embarrassing, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, our jobs are indeed embarrassing. So, as you might

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Speaker 3: guess from all of that, Sam was born into what

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Speaker 3: amounts to America's like liberal aristocracy. He is a fucking

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Speaker 3: coastal elite, right. This kid grows up on the Stanford

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Speaker 3: campus to Stanford professors. One of his aunts teaches at

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Speaker 3: Columbia University, is like a professor there. Seems like he

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Speaker 3: has close family connections to employees at Yale and at

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Speaker 3: Harvard as well as Stanford, like his parents both go

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Speaker 3: to Harvard. I think it is Kennedy. He is a Yeah,

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Speaker 3: he's that. He is as you do not get much

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Speaker 3: more of a rarefied like intellectual air.

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Speaker 2: He's wearing Linen's around.

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Speaker 3: This is how I think about Yes, this this is

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Speaker 3: a child who, at age eight, has strong opinions on

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Speaker 3: a manual Kant.

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Speaker 2: Which again will cheer for him at the table.

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Speaker 3: No, oh, we're about to get into that, Jamie Love.

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Speaker 2: I just had a I just had a vision of

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Speaker 2: a child sitting at like a holiday dinner and saying derivative.

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Speaker 2: And then there's Oh, that's amazing. Wow he is really

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Speaker 2: coming along, isn't he.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a little kid that when he like

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Speaker 3: sits down at the doctor's office, pulls out a fucking

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Speaker 3: I don't know, deritter or something book just just just

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Speaker 3: so you know, just so you know, he knows fancy philosophers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, god damn it. Board book.

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Speaker 3: So his parents and his raised him and his brother

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Speaker 3: to be utilitarians. One of the articles about them into SpongeBob. Okay, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was. I was raised to hassle cows in our

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Speaker 3: back forty his parents' nights. So this article notes that

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Speaker 3: nights around the family dinner table often focused around debates

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Speaker 3: about how to do the greatest good for the greatest

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Speaker 3: number of people. In later interviews with I'm going to

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Speaker 3: get to this guy in a second, the absolute dick

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Speaker 3: writing a journalist to ever write, Dick Sam would claim

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Speaker 3: that his most formative moment came at age twelve when

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Speaker 3: he was weighing arguments around the abortion debate.

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Speaker 2: So first off, moved on out a point one no

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Speaker 2: because because not only no, also like in the context

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Speaker 2: of like where would he have been doing this.

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Speaker 3: I'm guessing it like around the family table or when

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00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 3: they have the all. You know, everybody's got their brandy

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00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 3: and he's drinking some sort of fucking tea that's insufferable,

390
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Speaker 3: and they're all talking about people's rights as if it's

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Speaker 3: like a fun intellectual problem, like how to fix it?

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Speaker 2: Because for them it is because wherever they land, the

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Speaker 2: rules aren't going to apply to them anyways.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, where does he Where does he fall?

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Speaker 2: Where does he fall on the debate?

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. So I'm going to quote now

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00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,639
Speaker 3: from an article previously published by Sequoia Capital and written

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Speaker 3: by Adam Fisher, who should never be allowed to lift

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Speaker 3: this article down. When I say the dick writing ist

400
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 3: like fucking pr flack journal, it's it's it's shameful quote.

401
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 3: A rights based theorist might argue that there aren't really

402
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 3: any discontinuous differences, as a fetus becomes a child, and

403
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 3: thus fetus murder is essentially child murder. The utilitarian argument

404
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 3: compares the consequences of each. The loss of an actual

405
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 3: child's life, a life in which a great deal of

406
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 3: parental and societal resources have been invested, is much more

407
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 3: consequential than the loss of a potential life in utero,

408
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 3: and thus to a utilitarian abortion looks more like birth

409
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Speaker 3: control than like murder. SBF. That's what they always call him,

410
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 3: the kid Sam fbf's application of utilitarianism helped him resolve

411
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Speaker 3: some nagging doubts he had about the ethics of abortion.

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Speaker 3: It made him feel comfortable being pro choice, as his friends, family,

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00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 3: and peers were. He saw the essential rightness of his

414
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 3: philosophical faith. So that's very fucked up. That is, that

415
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 3: is so deep, Like the term choice is used at

416
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 3: the very end there, but it's clear that like he's

417
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 3: not thinking about this in terms of like the actual

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00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 3: value of human bodily autonomy. That does not weigh in

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Speaker 3: the utilitarian calculus for him whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: No, that is, to quote argue my friend Robert, no, no, no.

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00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 3: And again, even like, look, I shit reflexively sometimes on utilitarianism,

422
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 3: not because of the inherent value or disvalue of thinking

423
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 3: that way, but about the way it gets talked about

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00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 3: by these people, But like, if you're actually a utilitarian

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Speaker 3: and you care about the greatest good for the greatest

426
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 3: number of people, then bodily autonomy should factor into that, right,

427
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 3: like human bodily autonomy is should be hugely important to you. Yes,

428
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 3: but no, that's not logical. All that matters is like,

429
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 3: well how many if you've result. If less resources than

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Speaker 3: this have been invested in the fetus, then it's not

431
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Speaker 3: a person. So abortion makes us that's fucking bullshit logic.

432
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Speaker 3: Fuck you, you're doing too much math. Stop, this isn't

433
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 3: a math problem, Sam, Like, this is not a fucking

434
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Speaker 3: math problem. Not everything's a goddamn math problem.

435
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Speaker 2: Robert, you won't listen to unless you call him SBF,

436
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: And I was like, why is talking about sunscreen?

437
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 3: We'll get that. They all call him fucking SBF and

438
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: I hate it. But also as this went on, I

439
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 3: started using it more and more because it's a pain

440
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 3: in the ass to type his whole fucking last name out. Look,

441
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 3: I this is one where I'm not going to give

442
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 3: him a pass, but I get it. If you write

443
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 3: about this fucker a lot, it does make it easier.

444
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 3: So anyway, all of this is very bad. But you

445
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 3: know what's not bad, Jamie Wall, the products and services

446
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 3: to support this podcast.

447
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 2: That's not true.

448
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 3: They are that's well.

449
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 2: I checked. Hold on, I just ran a quick check

450
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: on that, and you can.

451
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 3: But but what about the greatest good for the greatest

452
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 3: number of people? And and given that I'm I'm a people,

453
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 3: so it works out pretty well. It works out very

454
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: well for me.

455
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 2: I think that if you actually have more advertising revenue,

456
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 2: you will actually build a really fast train like you've

457
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: been promising me you will.

458
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna build the hyper loop.

459
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

460
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 3: And I'm gonna promise you one thing. It's gonna kill

461
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: a hell of a lot more people than that Simpsons

462
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 3: Mono rail did.

463
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: And that and and I'm gonna and and look, not

464
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: everyone is going to hold you to task for that,

465
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 2: but I am.

466
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jamie, thank you for keeping me honest and

467
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 3: ensuring that we we we really make a memorable disaster.

468
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 2: Look, I'm available anytime. I'm not visiting my friend Liz

469
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: in jail.

470
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 3: M hm. We are back. What a good time. So

471
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 3: Sam Bankman Freed is above all else a numbers guy,

472
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 3: and I guess as a kid. He was a numbers kid.

473
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: His parents sent him to Crystal Springs Uplands, a fancy

474
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 3: prep school in Hillsborough, California. I looked through the website

475
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 3: because I wanted to make fun of it, but it

476
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 3: just kind of seems like a really fancy school. I

477
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 3: don't know. I'm sure it's a great place to get

478
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 3: an education. They they put a lot of I will

479
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 3: tell this. They devote a lot of screen resources to

480
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 3: letting you know that they are not racist and that

481
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 3: most of their students aren't white. They also have a

482
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: French They also have a French cinema class for sixth graders,

483
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 3: which is fine, But the cranky asshole in me that

484
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: still has a little piece of my soul raised by

485
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 3: right wing radio wants to say shit about it.

486
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: I was raised by by left wing people, and I

487
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: still think that that's some loser shit, man. I think

488
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: that that's fucking dorky and goofy and like should it's

489
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: like what you know, you meet because you meet people

490
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 2: like that in the wild, and they're sometimes very and

491
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: maybe even often very sweet people. But I'm like trying

492
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: to be like, oh, you know who Plankton is and

493
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: they're like no, and then, but they've been watching French

494
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: movies since they were like seven, and.

495
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 3: I just don't expect that if I made a sixth

496
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: grader with it. Yeah, if I meet a sixth grader

497
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 3: with strong opinions about French cinema, like I'm just gonna leave,

498
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 3: I'm gonna leave, I'm just gonna walk away.

499
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: Wow.

500
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 2: R Robert, that's really brave of you to march out

501
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: of a conversation with an eleven year old like I

502
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,239
Speaker 2: am not.

503
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 3: I'm not putting up with that shit. Absolutely not.

504
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 2: I'm leaving this sixth grade class.

505
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 4: My name's Robert Evans, and I think, fuck out of here.

506
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 4: Wopis is fucking go watch your What Renoir is that

507
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 4: one of them? That sounds like one of them? Cloud Renoir?

508
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 4: Is he a painter?

509
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 2: Or Renoir is a painter? I know the one you're

510
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: looking for, and I was looking for it too, but

511
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: I don't remember. But guess who do you know who

512
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: Plankton is?

513
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 3: Of course you I know who Plankton is, and I

514
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 3: also know that at least one of the directors they

515
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: study is a pedophile. Just knowing a little bit about

516
00:25:53,760 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 3: French cinema that's that's unavoidable. So huh, he does well again,

517
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 3: the school is probably fine. He does well at the school.

518
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 3: He was notably insular. He avoided most of his classmates

519
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 3: to play StarCraft, which is good, and League of Legends,

520
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 3: which objectively sucks. He also played a lot of Magic

521
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: the Gathering, So I am confident he did not get

522
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 3: late in high school. This is based on extensive personal experience.

523
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: Like I just actually did some field research and yeah,

524
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: about four years of it.

525
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: Okay.

526
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: Interesting.

527
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 3: For college, he was accepted to and attended MIT, which

528
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 3: marked out his family's elite North American University punch card.

529
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 3: They really hit them all. Now now that they've got

530
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: an mi T kid in the family.

531
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: They get a free coffee. There used to be an

532
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 2: mi T. So when I was in comedy in Boston,

533
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: there was like MI T had like a secret comedy

534
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 2: club that was just for MI T students and it

535
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: was awful.

536
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 3: Oh god, yeah.

537
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: They paid you, okay, but it was like they're like,

538
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: if you like knew someone who like met someone who

539
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: went to MI I T and they came to your

540
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: shows and they're like, oh we we've we did the

541
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 2: math and you are allowed to come to art. They

542
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 2: called it their speak easy. I wonder if it's still around.

543
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: It was so it was. I mean it's not fun. Yeah,

544
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: not a fun crowd, I will say. But best of

545
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 2: luck to to whatever was going on there. Yeah, so

546
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: he goes to I T. He goes he might have

547
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: been at one of those shows where he might.

548
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 3: Have because he joins a fraternity there. Uh and M

549
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: I T. Well, Jamie, it's a an M I T

550
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: specific co ed nerd fraternity.

551
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: So nice.

552
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: It's what you go wrong, THETA. And here's how Adam Fisher,

553
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 3: the guy I hate, described them in his article, which

554
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: was bad quote a co ed fraternity of super geeks

555
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 3: similarly interesting in magic and video games. Thetans are fun

556
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: of debating math, physics, computer science, linguistics, philosophy, and logic

557
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 3: problems for fun at alcohol free parties. Now I do

558
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 3: know a little bit about MIT, and I know another

559
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: thing these nerds often do is kill themselves using nitrous oxide,

560
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 3: because they will try to flood entire rooms with nitrous

561
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: to do like a twenty percent nitrous to two ratio

562
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 3: and kill themselves. It's a thing that happens. Look it up.

563
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 3: MIT nitrous dead.

564
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, all I did in college was drink too many

565
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: blue moons.

566
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: It's it's it's quite a thing.

567
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: Yikes. So I don't know doing over there.

568
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I

569
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 3: don't know how much I believe that that they were

570
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: always alcohol and drug free parties, because if there's one

571
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: thing I know from nerds, it's that they do a

572
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 3: shitload of drugs.

573
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: I definitely didn't hear of this one because I went

574
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: to a couple MIT frat parties and they were not sober.

575
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: Fun fact, the one of the MIT frat parties I

576
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: went too for some reason when I was in college,

577
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: and when I would get really drunk, I would always

578
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: I would like I would I would like to like

579
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: steal things from wherever I was. And so I stole

580
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: two critical pool balls from an MIT frat house and

581
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: someone was able to trace it back to me, and

582
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: they demanded their poolballs back, and I, embarrassingly, I think

583
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: I capitulated. I think I did give them back. I shouldn't.

584
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 3: Wow. Wow. Actually, so this one kid I'm finding in

585
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 3: ninety nine died because he put a bag over his

586
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: head to inhale Nitris, which is fuck man. How did

587
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: you get into n it.

588
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: Mi T I don't know any I was in front

589
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: of this guy. I don't know.

590
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: But don't put bags. Don't put bags over your head kids.

591
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, fucking I learned that in public school.

592
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 3: No less, so many other ways to do whippets than

593
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: putting a plastic bag over your head anyway, whatever. According next,

594
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: according to the popular Sam Bankman Freed endorsed version of

595
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: the story, he pivoted towards an almost obsessive devotion ethics.

596
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: In his freshman year, he went vegan, he organized a

597
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 3: protest against factory farming, and he worried obsessively over how

598
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: he could change the world for the better. And it

599
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 3: was at this point that Sam met a man who

600
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: was going to change his life forever, William mccaskell. If

601
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: you want to learn more about this guy, I do

602
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: recommend the episode of It could Happen here on effective Altruism.

603
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: This guy is today the most the pop philosopher of

604
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 3: effective altruism and long termism. He is in Elon Musk's

605
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: text messages that we all got as a result of

606
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: the Twitter lawsuit. At this point, he was also at

607
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: MIT and he met with Sam at a cafe in Cambridge,

608
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 3: Massachusetts where.

609
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,719
Speaker 2: Mecaskal which one, which one?

610
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 3: Which I don't know. I'm sure it's out there somewhere, Jamie,

611
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: it's I'm sure you've gotten a hot dog there. That's

612
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: that seems likely.

613
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: Now, any place this guy's going it doesn't have hot dogs.

614
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: They're not ethical. They're famously unethical.

615
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: So yeah, probably right. So mccaskell explained the concept of

616
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 3: effective altruism him, which is again this idea that like

617
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 3: what matters is you should like think kind of coldly

618
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: and robotically about how you do help to make sure

619
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: that your charity money does the most that it can do.

620
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: But one of the big like arguments about it is

621
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: that like, okay, well, what if you, you know, should

622
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 3: you save a drowning child instead of saving like three

623
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: kids from a burning building. And it's like, that's a

624
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 3: nonsense choice. Nobody's ever been presented with that choice at

625
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 3: any point in the history of the human race. It

626
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: is not a reasonable that is not a there's no

627
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 3: point to that ethical argument. You're not smart for debating

628
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: the problem.

629
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: Just draft driver. Yeah, and it makes no sense.

630
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes no fucking sense. There's like bits of

631
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: it that are reasonable, which is that like, well, you know,

632
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 3: it makes sense to like look at the best thing

633
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: you can do financially, you know, in terms of donating money,

634
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: is you know, malaria prevention, because it winds up being

635
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: the most cost effective thing. But it's like, okay, does

636
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: that mean we shouldn't put money into making the water

637
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: in Flint, Michigan drinkable? And a lot of these guys

638
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: will say no because that's not the best use of money.

639
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: And it's like, well, we can do many things with money,

640
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: especially if we tax billionaires and put it towards rebuilding infrastructure,

641
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: Like a number of things can be done. What Sorry, anyway,

642
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: my friend Elon's shitty mecastal kind of pills this guy

643
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: on effective altruism. He frames it as a strategic investment

644
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,719
Speaker 3: whose success was measured in populations worth of human lives.

645
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: He estimated, using back of the envelope math, that two

646
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 3: thousand dollars could save one life, and so a million

647
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: dollars could save five hundred people, a billion could save

648
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 3: half a million, and a trillion dollars could theoretically save

649
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: half a billion lives. Based on that totally legitimate math,

650
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 3: the only math if people are math. It all works

651
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: out that way. Yeah, based on that absolutely real math,

652
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: the only ethical way for a genius like Sam to

653
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 3: use his time and talents is to become the world's

654
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: first trillionaire. And I'm going to quote again from that

655
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: article that I know. SBF listened nodding as mess Caskal

656
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: made his pitch. The earned to give logic was air tight.

657
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 3: It was SBF realized, applied utilitarianism. Knowing what he had

658
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 3: to do, SBF simply said, yep, that makes sense. But

659
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 3: right there, between a bright yellow sunshade and the crumbs

660
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: strewn red brick floor, SBF's purpose in life was set.

661
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: He was going to get filthy rich for charity's sake.

662
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 3: All the rest was merely execution risk. His course established.

663
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: Mccaskell gave SBF one less navigational nudge to set him

664
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 3: on his way, suggesting that SBF get an internship at

665
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 3: Jane Street that summer, and.

666
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: So for the good of man, for the good.

667
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 3: Of mankind, get in the finance industry and gamble.

668
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: Like a mother asshole. I know where God.

669
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 3: I fucking hate these people so much.

670
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: What God makes sense?

671
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah?

672
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: You know, look, I think that.

673
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 3: I can't debate that lot. There's no argument to be

674
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 3: made about that logic, Jamie.

675
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I know that this is the wrong person

676
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: to be turning on in this moment, but this is

677
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: the dick riding like, this is the Jamie's like, he.

678
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: Has not begun to ride dick. This is this is joking.

679
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: He is choking. This man's got no gag reflex. It

680
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: is a sign of slowing down, Jamie.

681
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 3: I'm gonna read you some passages from this that are

682
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: going to make you gag. It is unbearable. So and

683
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 3: it's like, this article is like ten thousand fucking words.

684
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 3: It took me like an hour to get through this thing.

685
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: It's mass is He's like, maybe if I do it,

686
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 2: he'll give me a kiss on the mouth.

687
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 3: Well, well, basically this this was published by Sequoia, which

688
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 3: is a massive like investment fucking fun thing on.

689
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: Their website journalistic entity.

690
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like that. It looks exactly like an

691
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 3: article from like Wired or something like. They clearly laid

692
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: it out like that. But I think it was done

693
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 3: because they put like two hundred million dollars into his company,

694
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: so they needed to justify it by making him look

695
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: like a genius. So it's like.

696
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: Those articles that like are occasionally, I mean, it's more

697
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: scary when they're on actual journalistic outlets and then there's

698
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 2: just a little tag saying like hey, this is sponsored

699
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: by RuPaul's fracking farm or whatever the fun and it's

700
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: like why why Frock all.

701
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 3: An Exxon Bobile LGBT icons. So yeah, Sam Bankman Freed

702
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: gets into finance and he's a very good trader. As

703
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 3: I mean, I have no way to judge this, but

704
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: Sequoia says he was a good trader. He was good

705
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: at making a lot of money for other people and

706
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: also a lot of money for himself. Besides, he gave

707
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 3: away fifty percent of his income to his favorite charities,

708
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 3: but those charities were mostly the Center for Effective Altruism

709
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 3: and eighty thousand Hours, which is also an effective altruism charity.

710
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: What does give money?

711
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 3: That's gat a great question, Jamie. It allows guys like

712
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 3: mccaskell to live very well, while also saying they only

713
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: take thirty thousand dollars in salaries and give away the

714
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 3: rest because their lives are heavily subsidized by these organizations

715
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 3: that allow billionaires to pretend to be heroes to like charity,

716
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 3: So like charity. Yeah. So he remains there happily for

717
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: years until twenty seventeen when he begins to feel is

718
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: if something is not right? Now spoilers having this party

719
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 3: life crisis, He is having a quarter live crisis. And

720
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 3: this kid absolutely is a con artist. And what I

721
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: am giving you is the polished, press friendly version of

722
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 3: the story for a guy whose entire life, as far

723
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: as I can tell, was one long setup for an

724
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: ambitious con So when I say stuff like he gave

725
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 3: a lot of money to charity, because there's like other

726
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 3: charities he gives to some which sound reasonable, but I

727
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: have actually no evidence that he did like, I have

728
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: no evidence that he did, and I haven't seen it

729
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: one of them. So when I say stuff like he

730
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: felt like that, or when they say stuff like he

731
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: felt unfulfilled at Jane Street, that doesn't mean he actually did.

732
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: Because we are at present reliant on a lot of

733
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 3: reporting from back when this kid was the toast of

734
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 3: Wall Street. Now, after his life fell apart and his

735
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 3: company crash and it became clear that he was a

736
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: financial criminal, it also came out that the guy who

737
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 3: wrote the Big Short has been following him for six months,

738
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 3: So I suspect at some point it's got that's gonna

739
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: be fun. We're all going to be in for a

740
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 3: real treat when.

741
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: That book hits. I love. I love when you're like,

742
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: and guess who is following him around? You're like, Oh,

743
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: he's got Michael Lewis on his tail.

744
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 3: It's like And also, if you're an investor, shouldn't like

745
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: it's somebody involved in one of these companies. Probably should

746
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 3: have been able to find out, like, oh, hey, the

747
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 3: big short guys hanging out with him. That probably means

748
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: this is a giant financial crime. That guy's not going

749
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: to just hang out with a dude who's good at

750
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: legally making money to write about how good he isn't

751
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 3: making money legally. That's not Michael Lewis's beat.

752
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,959
Speaker 2: I'm kind of going for like a change of paces time.

753
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna try to see a guy who's like

754
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 2: doing something right.

755
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Michael Lewis, aren't you the guy who only writes

756
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 3: about financial crimes on like a gigantic scale?

757
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I know this is he's just probably

758
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 2: just trying to network.

759
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, just she just really liked this guy's attitude towards altruism.

760
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 3: So anyway, yeah, anyway, here's how that again, very dick

761
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 3: writing pr flack motherfucker wrote about what happens next quote

762
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 3: huh he was, he realized too secure. SBF's mind had

763
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: been trained almost from birth to calculate as a schoolboy

764
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: that he donic calculus of utilitarianism and him trying to

765
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: maximize the utility function measured in utils of course for

766
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 3: abortion during his teenage game I know, I know that's

767
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 3: a sentence.

768
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: Does he say, of course?

769
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 3: Uh no, no I said that. Oh no, he does say,

770
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 3: he does say, he does say, of course, yes, measured

771
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 3: in course.

772
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, all suck my ass.

773
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: You find unbelievables. During his teenage gaming years, his mathematical

774
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 3: abilities allowed him to sharpen his tactics and win, and

775
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: of course, every trade SBF ever made it Jane was

776
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: the subject of a risk reward calculation, all of it

777
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: boiled down to expected value. The formula is fairly simple.

778
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 3: If the amount one multiplied by the probability of winning

779
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 3: a bet is greater than the amount loss multiplied by

780
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 3: the probability of losing a bet, then you go for it,

781
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 3: irrespective of units u till's euros dollars. We're all subject

782
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 3: to the same reckoning. But at Jane sbf us most

783
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 3: another trading principle he learned to be risk neutral. In

784
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: simple terms, a trader given a choice between a fifty

785
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: fifty dollars and a fifty percent chance at one hundred

786
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 3: dollars must be agnostic if they want to maximize the

787
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 3: expected value of earnings over a lifetime. Those who prefer

788
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 3: that sure win are risk averse, and those who would

789
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 3: rather gamble our risk lovers. But both risk lovers and

790
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 3: the risk averse are suckers equally because over the long run,

791
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 3: they lose out to the risk neutral who take both

792
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 3: deals without prejudice. That makes no sense. That makes no

793
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 3: sense at all, because you're assuming you have to like

794
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: choose between one. Can you just take both? Is that

795
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: like the is that the offer? Because it seems like

796
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: the whole thought experiment is about choosing between one. None

797
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 3: of this makes very much sense.

798
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: Like kiz I had a brain hemorrhage in the middle

799
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: of that, and then I was thinking, I couldn't stop

800
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: thinking about do you think that utilitarians? How do utilitarians

801
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: feel about kissing with tongue. Do you think how many

802
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: utils does it take to kiss with tongue? Or don't

803
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: waste your fire.

804
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: Let me write the equation out, Jamie, and to try

805
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 3: to sketch out the math.

806
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: On I think they wouldn't be into it. I think

807
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: they would be like, what's the point?

808
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that seems really five utils? Okay, James, Jamie,

809
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 3: I got to continue this say, I don't know, but

810
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 3: we have to read another one quote here SBF realized

811
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 3: was the rub. When he applied this principle to his

812
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 3: own life, he came up short. There was little chance

813
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 3: he'd get himself fired from Jane Street. Thus, the decision

814
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: to stick with Jane was a risk averse preference. It

815
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 3: was the logical equivalent of being offered a choice between

816
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 3: fifty dollars and fifty percent of one hundred dollars and

817
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 3: saying give me President Grant. SBF was risk neutral on

818
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: behalf of Jane Street, but not He realized for his

819
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 3: own life, to be fully rational about maximizing his income

820
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 3: on behalf of the poor, he should apply his trading

821
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 3: principles across the board. He had to find a risk

822
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 3: neutral career path, which, if we strip away, the trader

823
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 3: jargon actually means he needed to take on a lot

824
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 3: more Oh, Jamie, you need to hear this, boy.

825
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: We're stripping it away. I've been asleep for six minutes.

826
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: Come on, Which, if we strip away the trader jargon

827
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 3: actually means he felt he needed to take on a

828
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 3: lot more risk in the hopes of becoming part of

829
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 3: the global elite. The math couldn't be clearer. Very high

830
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 3: risk multiplied by dynastic wealth. Trump's low risk multiplied by

831
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: mere rich guy wealth. To do the most good for

832
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: the world, SBF needed to find a path on which

833
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 3: he'd be a coin toss away from going totally busted.

834
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 3: So what path is risk neutral? But that means taking

835
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: a lot of risk, because the most risk is the

836
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: only way to become the wealthiest person in the world.

837
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 3: And only by becoming the wealthiest person in the world

838
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: can you avoid risk? You get it, Jamie.

839
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the most ethical thing you can do.

840
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: Right, That's that clearly the most logical ethical way to live.

841
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 2: So do you think that they kiss with dun or not?

842
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I think what he's saying is ordered in

843
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 3: order to avoid the risk of catching an STD. You

844
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 3: have to take on a job as the bathroom mat

845
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 3: at a brothel. Ah, that's the risk of verse, yeah,

846
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 3: or risk neutral presentation.

847
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: Frantically rubbing my final brand cells together, trying to make

848
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: heads or tails of that. And like spark it is.

849
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 3: It is howling clownshit. It is absolutely sparking nonsense is like.

850
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: Of vortex of bullshit to be like, so anyways, it's

851
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: really clear and the math couldn't be clearer that he

852
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: has to be the most richest guy or everyone is

853
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 2: going to die, like actually really urgent.

854
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 3: You know, it's one of those things because I have

855
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 3: I have known a number of rich guys in my life,

856
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: and some of them are in late it's for you.

857
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: There's two kinds people. There's people who were poor at

858
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 3: one point, and some of those people are unhinged, and

859
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 3: some of them still remember being poor enough to talk

860
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 3: like normal people. And then there's people like this who

861
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 3: Sam was never rich as a kid, but he lived

862
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: in this verified air where finance and like the concept

863
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 3: of worrying about money or his economic status was not

864
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 3: a thing because everyone around him when he was a

865
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 3: kid was so high status, right, and he like he's

866
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 3: just lived in this it's not even a it's not

867
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 3: even a bubble. He grew up on a different planet,

868
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,919
Speaker 3: Like the world does not exist to him the same

869
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 3: way it does to everyone else. And so he's like,

870
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 3: that's the only way you can talk about things in

871
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 3: this way that or you're just sort of sinister thing

872
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: where you're talking about everything like it is very my thinking.

873
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: It's like, it's so easy for him and people like

874
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 2: this to think of other people as theoreticals because they

875
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: had never had a problem before.

876
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 3: So it's like I've never.

877
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 2: Had a game of chance because I never never met

878
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 2: a person, right, right, he has never known a human being.

879
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 3: Just Stanford professors exactly, just Stanford professors and problems in

880
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: his video games.

881
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, and not that all nerd. I mean, I'm

882
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: not I'm a I'm afraid of nerd. You know, people

883
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: who identify as nerds coming into my mansions. I'm not

884
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: saying that that's everybody, but I'm saying, like, he's not

885
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: going socialized like a person, and that has to do

886
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: with class.

887
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, God damn it. So the next thing that SBF

888
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 3: did after deciding he had to quit Jane Street is

889
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: start pondering how he might change the world in a

890
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 3: way that minimized his risk. By maximizing his risk or

891
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 3: some shit. Anyway, as he told it, he considered four

892
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 3: career fields poop and this is These are his notes

893
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 3: on the four things he might do after being a trader.

894
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 3: Number one journalism, low pay but a massively outsized impact potential.

895
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 3: Number two running for office or maybe just being an advisor.

896
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: Number three working for the movement EA effect of altruism

897
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 3: needs people. Number four starting a startup. But what exactly?

898
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 3: Number five bumming around the Bay Area for a month

899
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 3: or so just to see what happens. And again sounds like.

900
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: A bad bumble day, Like it's just like, so what

901
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: do you He's like, om, well, so startup maybe, but

902
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: what is a startup? Really?

903
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 3: It is a startup? Yeah? So again, he spent years

904
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 3: working in finance, He's got plenty of money. He came

905
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 3: from the Bay Area. So five was an option and

906
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: it's one he took. And by the way, like as

907
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 3: a general rule, if you decide to quit your job

908
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 3: and you have the financial ability to putter him out

909
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: around for a month or two and think things through,

910
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 3: not a bad idea. But Sam is going to do

911
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 3: this in the worst way possible. He eventually hits upon

912
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 3: his great next idea, which is to make a shitload

913
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: of money in crypto. Now when he quits Jane Street

914
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 3: is twenty seventeen, and if you guys can remember back

915
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 3: that far, that's the first big winter when cryptocurrency boomed

916
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 3: like kind of all throughout the last quarter or so

917
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 3: of twenty seventeen, Bitcoin was just sailing up like massive rises.

918
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: Ether had a big rise too, just kind of went

919
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 3: around for so young early twenty eighteen, a lot of

920
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 3: bitcoin nerds, who people who'd been making fun of her

921
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 3: years became overnight multi millionaires. And this was kind of

922
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: the first point at which normal people started to think, shit,

923
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 3: maybe I should get into this, maybe I can make

924
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 3: a lot of money. Right, This is the thing that

925
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 3: blew up bitcoin, and there was a crash after this,

926
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 3: but it recovered, YadA, YadA, YadA. Sam was savvy enough

927
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 3: to look at this and know that these moments where

928
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 3: this thing where a lot of funny money is on

929
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: the table but there's no regulation, and regular people who

930
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,959
Speaker 3: started to get interested because they think they might get rich.

931
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 3: This is the point at which an unethical person can

932
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 3: make the absolute most money in a financial market.

933
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: Right, and you can be unethical, to quote one of

934
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: the greats, you can be unethical and still be legal.

935
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 2: That's the way I live my life.

936
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 3: And you know who else lives their life that way?

937
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: Jamie loftus you and you're tossing the ads.

938
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I am, indeed, I am indeed. Maybe

939
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 3: here we go, all right, and we're back. So Jayloft gelosis.

940
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: Yes, it's actually Jay. Oh it's the first. I'm the

941
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: first person to use that, and it's really starting to

942
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: catch on.

943
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 3: Bold. Oh, Ben Afflex calling me one sect, Jamie, let

944
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 3: me take this call.

945
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 2: Oh that's my boyfriend.

946
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 3: No, he's just weeping outside of a dunkin Donuts and

947
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 3: pocket dialed me again, normal normal Ben stuff? Am I right?

948
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: Old Ben? Look sometimes I meet I meet up with

949
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 2: my friend Ben at the Atwater Dunks and I really,

950
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: I really said him straight. It's nice.

951
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben affleck sober for years and looks like he's

952
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 3: hung over in every single photograph. Oh what a king man.

953
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 3: I know, I do, I do, I have a lot

954
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 3: of There's just a something about him that warms my heart.

955
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 3: It's his back tattoo.

956
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 2: You love his back tattoos.

957
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 3: It's just that takes courage, you know, moral courage.

958
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 2: I just think he's so amazing fucked up that I

959
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: think we need to have that.

960
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: Back tattoo and still got to marry Jennifer a little bit.

961
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: I think I Meansual put.

962
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 3: His name on the Vietnam Memorial in honor of the

963
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: courage that it took to get that back tattoo.

964
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 2: I really is braver than the troops. And he did

965
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: for a while hold the status of most divorced man

966
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 2: in America, but that is now but he fixed it.

967
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 3: But I feel like the contest I was.

968
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 1: Gonna say they did they did get married at a plantation.

969
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah that I mean, that's all. That's

970
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 3: all very fucked up. But I do feel the contest

971
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: for most divorced man. Did you ever watch Dragon Ball

972
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 3: Z as a kid, Jamie.

973
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: Yes, I didn't. No, I didn't.

974
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 3: Well, there's this thing that the Dragon Ball Z you

975
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 3: would always do this thing where like you have this

976
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 3: guy and he's like the most badass person ever that

977
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 3: everybody has to figure out how to fight, and it's

978
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 3: this big problem because this is the most terrifying thing

979
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 3: in the universe. And the next season like there's something

980
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 3: that's like a thousand times scarier. It's just this like

981
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 3: power creep kind of thing. I feel like we've all

982
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 3: been dealing with that with a divorced guy, because divorced

983
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 3: guy Ben Affleck doesn't even register on the divorced guy.

984
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 2: Stay in the age of Kanye and Elon. It's really

985
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 2: divorced and look out because Tom Brady's about to fucking

986
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: hit the world trades.

987
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 3: Tom Brady's gonna go super sayan diforce.

988
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: It's amazing that is going to a third divorce man

989
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 2: has hit the world.

990
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 3: It is bad. It's bad incredible. So back to Sam

991
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 3: Bankman freed right, he is he has just decided to

992
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 3: get into crypto now the first way to make money

993
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 3: in crypto that occurred to him because he spends a

994
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 3: bunch of time looking into the market and he find

995
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 3: he sees that there's this thing called I think it's

996
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 3: like the the Kimshi Premium or whatever like that. They

997
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 3: come up with some weird, kind of racist name about it,

998
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 3: which is basically bitcoin is worth a lot more in

999
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 3: Japan and Korea than it is in the United States. Right,

1000
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 3: It's like worth fifteen grand in Japan and Korea and

1001
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 3: it's like ten grand in the United States something like that.

1002
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 3: Why is that there's a variety of complicated factors. Basically

1003
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 3: there's a bunch of different laws around banking and who

1004
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 3: can and cannot hold accounts and execute trades in those areas.

1005
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 3: That leads to this premium because like normally, if a

1006
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 3: premium like that, if the markets were kind of accessible

1007
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 3: to each other, it bitcoin's worth fifteen grand in Asia

1008
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: and ten grand in the US. Then you buy bitcoin

1009
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 3: in the US and you sell it in Asia and

1010
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: you get free money, right, very obvious if you can

1011
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: do But you can't do that because you can't get

1012
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 3: access to that as an American. You can't like get

1013
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: a Chinese account in order to buy bitcoin there right,

1014
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: or a Korean account or a Japanese account. There's all

1015
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 3: these laws, so.

1016
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 2: They can't do like a drinking VPN.

1017
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 3: No, you can't. You cannot do that, and no one

1018
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 3: can figure out how to do it. How as a

1019
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 3: Westerner to sell bitcoin over in these parts of Asia

1020
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 3: and get that premium right and like just get a

1021
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 3: bunch of free cash. Sam figures out a way to

1022
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 3: do it, which is basically like picking up a pile

1023
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 3: of free money. Right, if you're buying bitcoin for ten

1024
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 3: grand and other people want to pay fifteen grand for it,

1025
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 3: you're just making cash, right, And primarily the way he

1026
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 3: does that is through friends in the effective altruism community

1027
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 3: who are like placed in banks and stuff over in Asia,

1028
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 3: who like help him figure out how to do this.

1029
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 3: I'm not going to go into details. They I mean,

1030
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 3: this fucking dick writing article spends a long time explaining

1031
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 3: how he figures this out, and it might even have

1032
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 3: been legal. He may not have broken the law to

1033
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 3: do this, although it's kind of hard to know because

1034
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 3: all of this is complicated finance gibberish.

1035
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 2: By the way, I'm honestly, I'm not getting a word

1036
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: of this.

1037
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 3: If finance guys call this an arbitrage, and it's basically

1038
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 3: the ideal that if you can, if there's a resource

1039
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 3: that's worth a bunch more money one place than it

1040
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 3: is the other place, you buy it where it's cheap,

1041
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 3: and you sell it where it's expensive, and you get

1042
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 3: free money. Right that makes sense? Yeah? Yeah? If if

1043
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: I am James, because if my drug dealer sells me

1044
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 3: ketamine for like forty bucks, a gram, right, and I

1045
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 3: don't know. At a house party you're hanging out at

1046
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 3: a couple of blocks away, somebody gets says that they'd

1047
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 3: pay seventy dollars a gram for ketamine. You can make

1048
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 3: thirty free bucks by taking the ketamine you bought for

1049
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 3: forty bucks and selling it at that other house party, right.

1050
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so that was you speaking to me in terms

1051
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 2: that you would understand. But I do think I got it.

1052
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, ketamine makes everything makes sense. Yeah, so you

1053
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 3: just gave it to me in Robert speak, I got it.

1054
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: I got it. He makes a shitload of money doing this,

1055
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 3: and he decides to roll this money into a company

1056
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 3: which will allow him to hire employees to gamble with

1057
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 3: cryptocurrency at scale to try and find different fucked up

1058
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 3: little areas like this where they can make a bunch

1059
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 3: of money by executing trades. He picks members of the

1060
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: EA community as his first employees, including Carolyn Ellison, a

1061
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 3: former coworker coworker at Jane Street who we will be

1062
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 3: talking about in a little bit, and Nishad Sing, a

1063
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 3: former Facebook employee Industrial scale dick writer Adam Fisher lets

1064
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 3: you know that Sing is an incredible almost impossibly good

1065
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: human being by describing him this way. He often wears

1066
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,280
Speaker 3: a T shirt with the words compassionate to the core

1067
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 3: printed in diminutive all lowercase font over his heart.

1068
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: Do you think that this guy, this writer like just

1069
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,399
Speaker 2: it's at this point, he's on like a bucking bronco. Yeah,

1070
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: SBF's dick, Like it's just absolutely is.

1071
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 3: He is fifty percent this guy's dick by weight. It

1072
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: is unbelievable.

1073
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: What does he think is gonna happen for him?

1074
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 3: He's gotta get paid by Sequoia to write a ten

1075
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 3: thousand word article that they then pull from their website

1076
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 3: When it becomes clear this man is a massive financial criminal.

1077
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: He's like, no, my greatest work.

1078
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 3: It's extremely funny. No, look, I don't know sing, But

1079
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 3: based on the description that guy gives, I am convinced

1080
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 3: he's murdered a child with his bare hands. And that

1081
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 3: is my head cannon for this man. No one else

1082
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 3: would wear that shirt. So these these EA nerds all

1083
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 3: form a trading firm called Alameda, and in doing so,

1084
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 3: they came down on one side of probably the biggest

1085
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 3: split within the crypto community. See the core of the

1086
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 3: idea that's not bad that exists within cryptocurrency is that

1087
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 3: decent is that centralized state controlled money is like has problems, right,

1088
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 3: you know, there's things about that that are bad. And

1089
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 3: it could be cool and useful to be able to

1090
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 3: separate the money from the state if you could do that, Right,

1091
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 3: if you could do that in a way that reduced

1092
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 3: the state's power to like, you know, just lock down

1093
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 3: the bank accounts of dissidence and stuff like that, there's

1094
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 3: cool benefits to it.

1095
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 2: Well, didn't you, Well I just had an idea, what

1096
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: if we did that, but then we gave all the

1097
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 2: money to one guy.

1098
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 3: Well that's kind of what keeps happening. But also, like

1099
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 3: SBFS on the other side of this argument, right, because

1100
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 3: obviously most of the actual benefits of a truly decentralized

1101
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 3: online currency are just you can buy drugs with it

1102
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 3: over the internet. But still that is a real value.

1103
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 3: People do in fact buy drugs using cryptocurrency, and that's fine.

1104
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 3: And the committed ideological crypto people tend to keep their

1105
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 3: money off in a wallet only they can access. Right,

1106
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 3: So you basically you have like a hard drive that

1107
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 3: has all of your crypto on it and that only

1108
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 3: touches the internet when you plug that into your computer

1109
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 3: and you use it to make a transaction, right, and

1110
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 3: otherwise it's completely offline, and so people can't just take

1111
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 3: it from you, right, right, that's the smart people. This

1112
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 3: is a pain in the ass though, right, like keeping

1113
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 3: it in this thing, like there's all these security you

1114
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 3: can lose your password. People actually do lose their money

1115
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 3: this way too, But anyway, it's there's a measure to

1116
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 3: which it makes sense and is secure. But most people

1117
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 3: don't want to go through that pain in the ass,

1118
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 3: so they put all of their crypto currency in what

1119
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 3: are effectively crypto banks, these exchanges, and these exchanges are

1120
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 3: places like mount gox, which a few years ago all

1121
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,439
Speaker 3: of the money got stolen from, and ftx, which Sam

1122
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 3: Bankman Freed makes, which also all of the money gets

1123
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 3: stolen from. Right. So the people who are like, no,

1124
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 3: you shouldn't do what Sam is doing. You shouldn't make

1125
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 3: an exchange because that's not decentralized. And we like this

1126
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,879
Speaker 3: because it's decent realized, they are the ones who get

1127
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 3: robbed less often because they're a little smarter. And that's

1128
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 3: part of the point these exchanges. They're meant for people

1129
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: who don't see crypto actually is like, well, I want

1130
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 3: to fight the state by removing my money from the

1131
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 3: banking system. Therefore, people who are like I want to

1132
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,399
Speaker 3: try to get rich quick by gambling, right, And that's

1133
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 3: why those people are also the most vulnerable to scams.

1134
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 2: Robert, anytime you explain crypto with me to me, even

1135
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: though I know I need to understand it for the

1136
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 2: context of the episode, I just feel like I'm in

1137
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 2: a corner at a house party and I'm holding a

1138
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: clammy bud light and it's mostly empty, and you're like,

1139
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 2: just one more thing though, because I.

1140
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 3: Mean, the important thing to understand is that what Sam

1141
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 3: has done so crypto is like unregulated, right, it is

1142
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 3: detached from any state, Okay, which is why people like it.

1143
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 3: Which is why people like it. Yes, Sam has What

1144
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 3: Sam has done is come in and he's not the

1145
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,439
Speaker 3: first person in them pushon to do this and said

1146
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 3: I have built a place where you can keep all

1147
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,359
Speaker 3: of your crypto and you can trade it with other

1148
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 3: crypto to try to make money the same way people

1149
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 3: do with the stock market, right.

1150
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:08,760
Speaker 2: Where it is more secure.

1151
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 3: No, because here's the thing, Jamie. He says, it's secure,

1152
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 3: but here's the thing. So you know how the banking system,

1153
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 3: how banks used to just go bust and everyone would

1154
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 3: lose their money and it caused a great depression. You

1155
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 3: get that part of the history of finance, right.

1156
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one of the characters from Titanic killed themselves over.

1157
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 3: That, exactly. Exactly, So that was a big problem, and

1158
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: we developed a bunch of regulations. So that other thing

1159
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 3: I know it is but Robert, So, what Sam has

1160
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 3: done is he's built a bank that has none of

1161
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 3: that so that people can gamble on the internet. Right, Okay,

1162
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 3: so so great depression. Yeah, got it, Yeah, got it exactly.

1163
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 3: That's all you need to understand is that Sam has

1164
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 3: built a big, unregulated bank for people to gamble with. Yeah. Anyway,

1165
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 3: and this is this is it is. It could not

1166
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 3: have been clearer that this was a Ponzi scheme. In

1167
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, they put out an advertisement to investors, and

1168
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to read it right now. I think you'll

1169
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 3: be like, we offer one investment product, fifteen percent annualized

1170
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 3: fixed rate loans. We can accept both fiat and crypto

1171
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: and can pay interest denominated in either. These loans have

1172
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 3: no downside. We guarantee full payment the principle and interest

1173
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 3: enforceable under US law and established by all parties legal counsel.

1174
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 3: We are extremely confident we will pay this amount in

1175
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 3: the unlikely case where we lose more than two percent. Anyway, Again,

1176
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: I'm not a finance expert. Neither of you, Jamie banks

1177
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 3: offer like a three percent return on like a fucking

1178
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 3: if you're like putting a pilot cash in a bank

1179
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 3: and you're getting three percent back, you're doing okay, fifteen

1180
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 3: percent nonsense that nobody, no one can guarantee that it's

1181
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 3: not a real product.

1182
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 2: I was pretty struck by their use of the like

1183
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 2: which like, we're pretty confident we're gonna be able to

1184
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:54,919
Speaker 2: play it sounds like it such a sounds like someone

1185
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: who is not actually very confident.

1186
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 3: And also if this is if you are, if you

1187
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 3: are investing in a in the stock market, right and

1188
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 3: someone says this investment has no downside, it's impossible for

1189
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 3: it to fail. That person's lying to you and breaking

1190
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 3: the law because it could and often does.

1191
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 2: Oh right, because then you're just you're you're making an

1192
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 2: almost guaranteed false problems.

1193
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 3: Ye, yes, you cannot do You cannot say this stock

1194
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 3: can't go down. Right, If you're a stockbroker, you cannot

1195
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 3: tell a client it is impossible for your investment in

1196
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 3: this company to fail, because that would be a crime.

1197
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 3: But with crypto.

1198
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: With crypto, it's uncharted territory, territory.

1199
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 3: You can do anything. This is also a Ponzi scheme, right.

1200
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 3: What what I'm what fucking made Off was doing is

1201
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 3: he had this investment portfolio that was I forget with

1202
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 3: the exact but it was promising an unbelievably high return

1203
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 3: and guaranteeing that people would get it right. And what

1204
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 3: he was doing is as new people put money into

1205
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 3: the investment, he was using their money to pay the

1206
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 3: old investors so that nobody noticed that things were fucking up.

1207
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 3: But eventually new people stopped putting money into the thing

1208
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 3: and it all fell apart. A lot of people lost

1209
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 3: billions of dollars, right, like, yeah, I'm back. He was

1210
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 3: also using a lot of that money to live, you know,

1211
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 3: an incredibly lavish rich guy live anyway.

1212
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 2: Sorry, I only understand financial concepts when Selena Gomez breaks

1213
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 2: the fourth wall and explains it to me.

1214
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 3: I'm doing my best to be your Selena Gomez, But.

1215
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 1: Do you know who Selena Gomez is.

1216
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's that chick from the thing Nailed It.

1217
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 2: She's she's kind of in the middle of a fun

1218
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 2: scandal right now where she's in a feud with someone

1219
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 2: who donated her a kidney, which is a very funny

1220
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 2: online feard.

1221
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 3: Do you get feud with that person?

1222
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: Because she Okay, if you asked Robert, this is something

1223
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 2: I can explain to you this so, so what happened

1224
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 2: was Selena Gomez needed a kidney donated her close friend

1225
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 2: who works in the industry, and I don't know who it was,

1226
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 2: but I yues she's like sort of famous, gave her

1227
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 2: a kidney a couple of years ago. Then Selena Gomez

1228
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: turns around a couple weeks ago and says, I have

1229
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 2: no friends in the industry except Taylor Swift incomes her

1230
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,919
Speaker 2: kidney donor, being like, oh, that's interesting because I'm one

1231
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 2: kidney lighter dude, Like, I'm not quoting it, but yeah.

1232
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: And then and then Selena instead of polizing, Selena Gomez

1233
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 2: is like, oh, sorry, I didn't thank every person I've

1234
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: ever met in my life.

1235
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean, Selena, she did give you a kidney.

1236
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a special kind of friend. You guys, weren't

1237
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: just like drinking buddies. She literally gave you a kidney,

1238
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 2: and that she did.

1239
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: She did the thing that you would use as like

1240
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 3: a joking description of someone who'd done a lot for you,

1241
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 3: to like, like to hyperbolically say that you owed them

1242
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 3: a lot, you know.

1243
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 2: Who's done and implying that Taylor Swift has done more

1244
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: for you than your kidney donor is. So I just

1245
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 2: think it's the funniest feed of all time. All Right,

1246
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 2: we were talking about a cryptocurrency.

1247
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 3: We weren't. We were talking about let's get back to cryptocurrency, Okay,

1248
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 3: So to talk about what came next after establishing Alameda,

1249
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to quote again from that Sequoia write up.

1250
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 3: At this point mid twenty nineteen, SBF decided to double

1251
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 3: down again and scratch his own itch. He would bet

1252
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 3: Alameda's multimillion dollar trading profits on a new venture, a

1253
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 3: trading exchange called FTX. It would combine coinbases, solid stole

1254
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 3: it regulation loving approach with the kinds of derivatives being

1255
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 3: offered by Binance and others. He only gave himself a

1256
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 3: twenty percent chance of success, but In his mind, SBF

1257
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 3: needed extreme risk to maximize the expected value of his

1258
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 3: lifetime earnings, and therefore the good his earned to give

1259
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 3: strategy could do. The Fact that he was, by his

1260
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 3: own lights overwhelmingly likely to fail was besides the point.

1261
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 3: The point was this, when SBF multiplied out billions of

1262
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 3: dollars a year a successful cryptocurrency exchange could throw off

1263
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 3: by his self assessed twenty percent chance of successfully building one,

1264
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 3: the number was still huge. That's the expected value. And

1265
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 3: if you live your life according to the same principles

1266
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 3: by which you'd trade an asset, there's only one way

1267
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 3: forward you calculate the expected value use than aim for

1268
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 3: the largest one, because in one, but just one alternate

1269
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 3: future universe, everything works out fabulously. To maximize your expected value,

1270
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 3: you must aim for it and then march blindly forth,

1271
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 3: acting as if the fabulously LUCKYSBF of the future can

1272
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 3: reach into the other parallel universes and compensate the fail

1273
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 3: soun sbfs for their losses. It sounds crazy, perhaps I've

1274
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 3: been selfish, but it's not. It's math. It follows the

1275
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 3: principle of risk neutrality. Yes, it actually is crazy. That's

1276
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 3: not math. I'm sorry, that's actually not math math, but.

1277
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 2: That was a lot of words all at once. That

1278
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 2: is like, oh my god, the spiraling logic is this.

1279
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 3: You are using hundreds of words and high minded bullshit

1280
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 3: rhetoric to be like gambling is the best way to

1281
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 3: make money.

1282
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 2: Used fabulously three times in one sentence.

1283
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, you know who. I've heard this basic argument

1284
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 3: from my friend's drunken Las Vegas explaining what they're trying

1285
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 3: to play at the craps.

1286
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 2: Why they don't want me to leave the little horsey game.

1287
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 2: This is something. Yeah, someone's like, no, don't leave the

1288
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 2: sex in the city slot machine.

1289
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 3: And you want to hear my mathematical thinking on gambling,

1290
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 3: Jamie loftus, because this will make more sense than anything

1291
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 3: that happens in the Sequoia article. Okay, when I go

1292
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 3: to Las Vegas, I find me the penny slots where

1293
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 3: I can see the most waitresses walking around with those

1294
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 3: little trays that they have the drinks and stuff on.

1295
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 3: Then I sit down at them, and I don't start

1296
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 3: to play until one gets close to me, and then

1297
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 3: I press the button as soon as she walks past,

1298
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 3: and I like, catch your attention, and then I get

1299
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 3: a free drink, And the way that it works out

1300
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 3: is that as long as I can get more free

1301
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 3: drinks than I'm spending at the penny slots, and mostly

1302
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 3: I'm just reading a book and hiding it while I'm

1303
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 3: at the penny slots, and I only press it when

1304
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 3: the waitress gets near.

1305
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 2: Please, then like the other Vegas guys.

1306
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 3: I can drink effectively for free. Right, it works out

1307
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 3: to be like twenty five cents a drink if you're

1308
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 3: really smart about it. That is my financial advice to

1309
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 3: all of you. I do respect that how you make

1310
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 3: it even better. I used to go with a bag

1311
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 3: because when I was poor. What I would do is

1312
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 3: I would go to Vegas once every couple of years,

1313
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 3: usually for work, and I would get all the free drinks,

1314
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 3: which came in glasses a lot of the time, and

1315
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 3: I would keep the glasses, and so I was able

1316
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 3: to furnish my apartment with stolen Las Vegas glasses.

1317
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 2: Love stealing glasses. I've seen my fair share of glasses

1318
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 2: and seatimes.

1319
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 3: I would get up to the floors where there were

1320
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 3: the nicer hotel rooms, and I would find all the

1321
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 3: people who'd set out their plates and stuff from like

1322
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 3: room service, and I would just take those and take

1323
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 3: them back to my house.

1324
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 2: I respect that I'm trying to think. I was like,

1325
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: I don't have a real system for well. Actually, when

1326
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 2: I go to Vegas, I always stay at the hotel

1327
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 2: with a roller coaster on top. And here's what I do.

1328
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 2: I go on the roller coaster once, sometimes twice. Then

1329
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 2: I go see one show. Usually it's horrible. The last

1330
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 2: time I went to see the Backstreet Boys and guess what,

1331
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 2: I found out one of the Battery Boys is in QAnon.

1332
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 2: And then I got bummed up from this. It was

1333
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 2: a realm.

1334
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 3: The point I want to make, Jamie is that what

1335
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 3: I just described to you, my Vegas strategy has made

1336
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 3: me infinite, infinitely more money and net profit than Samuel

1337
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 3: Bankman Freed is actually going to make in crypto curts.

1338
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 2: Oh fun foreshadowing. Yes, So you never hang out near

1339
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 2: waitresses though, because he's probably afraid of women.

1340
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 3: He's probably afraid of them. But I am fine with

1341
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 3: asking women for a free drink as long as I'm

1342
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 3: paying at the penny slots, you know, so it's not weird.

1343
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 1: Wow.

1344
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 2: Feminist icon Robert Kon.

1345
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 3: Robert Evans getting those, getting those shitty Vegas Irish copies

1346
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 3: because they come in the glasses I want.

1347
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 2: Those are nasty, but I like the glasses they used

1348
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 2: to come in. They do have, I know, but then

1349
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 2: there's the consequence of having the drink. What's inside?

1350
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:44,919
Speaker 3: Well, you know, Jamie, that's why they call me a hero.

1351
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 3: Nobody the Mahatma Gandhi of the West. They call me

1352
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 3: the Jesus Christ. Podcasting, these are all things people don't know.

1353
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 2: If you're gonna lie, make it realistic, James.

1354
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 3: So anyway, let's continue. I'm like, yeah, I think it's

1355
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:05,880
Speaker 3: hard to justify being risk averse on your own personal

1356
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 3: impact at impact, SBF told me when I quized him

1357
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 3: about it, unless you're doing it for personal reasons. In

1358
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 3: other words, it's selfish not to go for broke if

1359
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 3: you're planning on giving it all away in the end. Anyway, again,

1360
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 3: just clownshit. So all of this is a con spoiler,

1361
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 3: so you don't have to think that much about it.

1362
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 3: In a recent series of text messages with a Vox journalist,

1363
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 3: after his entire exchange exploded and everyone found out he

1364
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 3: was a financial criminal, Sam Bankman freed more or less

1365
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 3: admitted that everything he'd had to say about effective altruism

1366
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 3: was a con meant to get people to trust him

1367
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 3: and invest in his company. And I'm going to read

1368
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 3: the texts. Yeah, I'm going to read the texts to

1369
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 3: you between him and this journalist who, by the way,

1370
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 3: he put money in the box, so he helped fund

1371
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 3: this journalist.

1372
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

1373
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 3: So the ethics stuff, this is the journalist. So the

1374
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 3: ethics stuff mostly affront people will like you if you

1375
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 3: win and hate you if you lose, and that's how

1376
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 3: it all really works. Sam, Yeah, I mean that's not

1377
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 3: all of it, but it's a lot. The worst quadrant

1378
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 3: is sketchy and lose. The best is win plus question

1379
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 3: mark question mark question mark clean plus lose is bad

1380
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 3: but not terrible. He also misspells terrible, but whatever. The

1381
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 3: journalist then replies, you were really good at talking about

1382
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 3: ethics for someone who kind of saw it all as

1383
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 3: a game with winners and losers. Yeah, he he. I

1384
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,680
Speaker 3: had to be what it's what reputations are made of.

1385
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 3: To some extent, I feel bad for those who get

1386
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 3: fucked by it. But this dumb game we woke Westerners play,

1387
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 3: where we all say the right shibboleths, and so everyone

1388
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 3: likes us and that's the actual truth here, right, That's

1389
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 3: the thing that's honest about it. It's like, hey man,

1390
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,640
Speaker 3: it was all of this talk for everyone. That's the

1391
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 3: entire this miss Castle motherfucker. The only reason his effective

1392
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 3: altruism thing exists as a funded thing is a is

1393
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 3: a fucking shibballeth for billionaires who don't want to pay

1394
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 3: taxes and want to let the world crumble around them,

1395
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 3: will sucking as much value out of the working class

1396
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 3: as they can, and want to pretend like they're heroes

1397
01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 3: at the same time so that people write their dicks

1398
01:08:58,040 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 3: and articles like that fucking sequoia piece.

1399
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 2: That absolutely fucking ridiculous text actually is like a very

1400
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 2: important document.

1401
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 3: It's incredibly important. It's deeply crucial.

1402
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 2: I hate that there is such a crucial document that

1403
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 2: also includes he he in it.

1404
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's nothing to be done about that one, Jamie.

1405
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 2: Look, it doesn't feel good, but you know, our previous

1406
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 2: most important document to that effect was an im that said, haha,

1407
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:25,720
Speaker 2: So a text with he he is kind of the

1408
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 2: logical progression that is fascinating. Do you have any insight

1409
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 2: into like why he would so freely admit that now.

1410
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 3: I don't actually one of two things has to be happening,

1411
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:38,799
Speaker 3: because again the spoilers, this all falls apart. His exchange

1412
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 3: goes from worth thirty two billion dollars to worth basically

1413
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 3: zero dollars in the space literally in my head.

1414
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 2: Anytime you say.

1415
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 3: Like twenty four hours this happens. His net worth falls

1416
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 3: ninety four percent in a day, like it is it

1417
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 3: all it collect because they realize that all of the

1418
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 3: money is gone, that he'd been taking money from one

1419
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:58,519
Speaker 3: business and using to gamble in another and also to

1420
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:00,639
Speaker 3: pay him and his friends, and all of the money

1421
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 3: that the investors had put in when they tried to

1422
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 3: withdraw it, like their money that was supposed to be

1423
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 3: in there on paper, none of the money existed because

1424
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:13,639
Speaker 3: again he'd stolen it. Anyway, the context of this article

1425
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,839
Speaker 3: makes it clear that he felt like, I don't know whatever.

1426
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 3: This was all a confidence game, right, That's the key

1427
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 3: all of this could work. And the balance she's because

1428
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 3: people were looking at their balance sheet. I'm making money.

1429
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 3: I'm making money, the returns are great, and that money

1430
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 3: existed on paper until they tried to take it out,

1431
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:31,599
Speaker 3: because then it actually wasn't there because he had already

1432
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 3: frittered it away. It's a confidence game, and we have

1433
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 3: an you know that's the way it actually worked. We

1434
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 3: also know and this is all still coming out, so

1435
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get too much into it, but

1436
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 3: we know that he had FTX loan himself. Sam bakmanfried

1437
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 3: about a billion dollars, Like his paper value was like

1438
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 3: twenty two billion, but he gave himself basically a billion

1439
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 3: dollars in other people's money, although he may have gambled

1440
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,599
Speaker 3: that away. It's really unclear how much money he actually

1441
01:10:58,680 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 3: has liquid at the moment.

1442
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:02,759
Speaker 2: Do we think he has any.

1443
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 3: I have no idea either. Either he was like actually

1444
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 3: a gambling addict and a narcissist and he really did

1445
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:11,799
Speaker 3: lose it all or this was a con from the beginning,

1446
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 3: knowing it would all collapse, and he got as much

1447
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 3: as he could out of it, and he's going to

1448
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,680
Speaker 3: wind up someplace without extradition, right like, and that was

1449
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 3: the goal.

1450
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 2: If you ask me a couple of years ago, I

1451
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:21,560
Speaker 2: would have said it's the latter. But I feel like

1452
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 2: the last couple of years have demonstrated so often that

1453
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 2: like people are just straight up not smart and don't

1454
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 2: have a plan, and it is all a narcissist shell game.

1455
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 3: It's very it's Unwow, you're at the moment. I'm going

1456
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 3: to read you some things at the end here and

1457
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 3: you can kind of make your anyway whatever. So after

1458
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 3: you know, starting FTX, the company moves to Hong Kong

1459
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 3: and then the Bahamas and they use they buy these

1460
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 3: very like a thirty nine million dollar manch that he

1461
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 3: lives in with his friends using FTX tokens, which is

1462
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 3: like internal cash that his company issues based on the

1463
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 3: perceived value of the company.

1464
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 2: They don't know how many rooms is that.

1465
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 3: It's help a shitload and they're able to buy it

1466
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 3: because everything's like their paper on paper. They've gone from

1467
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 3: nothing to worth thirty two billion dollars and like a

1468
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 3: year or two and these these idiot like property owners

1469
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 3: and the Bahamas are like, well, clearly, the best thing

1470
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:13,240
Speaker 3: we could do is buy this building using the fake

1471
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 3: money they created for their own company that they tell

1472
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 3: us is worth a lot of money. This is worth it.

1473
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,479
Speaker 3: So since everything collapsed, some people that SBF had like

1474
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 3: reached out to as early investors have commented about why

1475
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 3: they didn't invest in this company in the early days,

1476
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 3: and most of them it's because, like what they could

1477
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 3: see of his investments, the tens of millions that he

1478
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 3: promised to charities in the long positions in risky cryptocurrent

1479
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 3: companies didn't make sense. They would look at like the

1480
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 3: things he was buying with the company assets and the

1481
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 3: things that like he was investing in and be like, well,

1482
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,640
Speaker 3: there's no way he could have that kind of liquidity.

1483
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 3: If this is a legitimate exchange, right, he can't have

1484
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:54,559
Speaker 3: that kind of cash on hand. It doesn't make any sense.

1485
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:58,759
Speaker 2: Rich fucking assholes always telling themselves like that, Yeah, that's funny.

1486
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 3: And what's funny is that, like I found one of

1487
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,680
Speaker 3: these guys who like, yeah, I didn't invest because I

1488
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 3: could tell it was a con and then was like,

1489
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 3: but I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want to

1490
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 3: get yelled at.

1491
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 2: That's unfortunately. I do see myself a statement where I

1492
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 2: was like, oh, someone might be someone might send me

1493
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 2: a rude text.

1494
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 3: I guess I will this.

1495
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, it's very goofy bullshit. I don't know.

1496
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 3: I'll tell you one thing, Jamie. He's a spineless guy

1497
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 3: who still has his fucking money.

1498
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 2: Wow, you're in love with him? That's what? Wow?

1499
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know whatever. It's the finance industry. They're all ghouls,

1500
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 3: sools from what we can actually tell now, because again

1501
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 3: this fucking captain Dick Writer, the bad writer, Like, I

1502
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 3: have to read you another quote that I didn't have

1503
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 3: in my script to give you an idea of just

1504
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 3: how much he fucking how much he loves SBF. Here's

1505
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 3: a quote from him. Okay, yeah, this is this is

1506
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:13,720
Speaker 3: actually Jamie. Oh boy, this is when, this is when,

1507
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 3: this is when, this is when the writer Captain Dick

1508
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 3: Rider is hanging out with him in the Bahamas at

1509
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 3: his office.

1510
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 2: Quote he's like, what have we kissed?

1511
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 3: Sensing an opportunity for connection, I chip in with my

1512
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 3: own two satoshi, which is two cents but a bitcoin term.

1513
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,679
Speaker 2: Anyway, I'm going to walk into the ocean. Wow. Okay.

1514
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:36,800
Speaker 3: I don't pay any attention to social media, not because

1515
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 3: I have any moral case against it, I say, but

1516
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 3: because for me, reading books is the highest bandwidth way

1517
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 3: I know to get quality information into my brain, which

1518
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:47,000
Speaker 3: just craves the stimulation I'm addicted to reading, which explains

1519
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 3: how I ended up being a writer. Oh yeah, said

1520
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,160
Speaker 3: SBS says SBF, I would never read a book. I'm

1521
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 3: not sure what to say. I've read. I hate them

1522
01:14:57,439 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 3: both because I'm not sure what to say. I read

1523
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:01,840
Speaker 3: a a week for my entire adult life, and I

1524
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 3: have written three of my own. I'm very skeptical of books.

1525
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 3: I don't want to say no book is ever worth reading,

1526
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,519
Speaker 3: but I actually do believe something pretty close to that

1527
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 3: explains SBF. I think if you wrote a book, you

1528
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 3: fucked up, and it should have been a six paragraph

1529
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:15,440
Speaker 3: blog post.

1530
01:15:16,400 --> 01:15:19,560
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, guy's writing a ten thousand word article, writing a

1531
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 2: stick that he will not read. It's like two guys

1532
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 2: whose heads are made out of rocks, just on like

1533
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 2: clonking against each other repeatedly.

1534
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 3: Just wait, Jamie, Jamie. It has it hasn't gotten as

1535
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 3: bad as it's going to get. Oh no, whatever the case,

1536
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 3: I hate books. Whatever the case, I find myself sad

1537
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 3: for the man, and it occurs to me that my

1538
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 3: reaction is exactly what might be expected from a beta.

1539
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 3: In the Brave New World, Crypto is creating whoa how

1540
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 3: can you write that and not leap off the top

1541
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:53,519
Speaker 3: of a building?

1542
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 2: He literally self identified as a beta to and.

1543
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,320
Speaker 3: Also like What I love about this is just like, well,

1544
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 3: we have to take it. We have to take it

1545
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 3: as given that Crypto is creating a brave new world

1546
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:06,839
Speaker 3: and none of us has any choice in that. It's inevitable,

1547
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,800
Speaker 3: it's unstoppable, it's going to dominate everything, which is.

1548
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:12,760
Speaker 2: Like capitulate to our bb boo boob overlords.

1549
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think again, what I wonder does he think?

1550
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:18,919
Speaker 3: I think? Wouldn't someone with IQ points to spare realize

1551
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 3: that dismissing books, all books is essentially worthless? Might rile

1552
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 3: a writer? Was he playing with me? Is this fun?

1553
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:27,679
Speaker 3: Is this humor? I'm satisfied with my meta analysis until

1554
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 3: I realized that one can always increment the level of

1555
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 3: strategic play in this sort of game. It's like poker.

1556
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 3: Level one is just thinking about how to strengthen your

1557
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,600
Speaker 3: own hand. Level two is thinking about what your opponent's

1558
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:39,799
Speaker 3: hand is. Level three is thinking about what your opponent

1559
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 3: thinks your hand is, and so on. And since SBF

1560
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 3: is obviously a genius, I should simply assume that compared

1561
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 3: with me, SBF will always be playing at level N

1562
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:50,640
Speaker 3: plus one, which was which makes my analysis of the

1563
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 3: intent behind SBF's books for losers idea spiral into infinity

1564
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:55,400
Speaker 3: and crash like a computer.

1565
01:16:57,479 --> 01:16:59,520
Speaker 2: Is how you write about me and your diary.

1566
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:02,720
Speaker 3: No, Jamie, because you know, do you know what the

1567
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 3: only ethical speaking of ethics, you know what, if you

1568
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:09,080
Speaker 3: think this way about conversations, the ethical thing to do

1569
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 3: is fill your pockets with rocks and walk into the ocean.

1570
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,639
Speaker 2: Wow, you're wolfing this guy.

1571
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:20,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I absolutely am him and Sam Bankman Freed. I

1572
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:22,160
Speaker 3: could not hate these people more.

1573
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 2: I mean, they're both there. There's never been two wronger

1574
01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:28,839
Speaker 2: people having a conversation.

1575
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:30,120
Speaker 3: And of course it came out. He's just like, well,

1576
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:32,719
Speaker 3: obviously he's a genius. We have to assume that because

1577
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 3: he became a billionaire. And he's like, no, he was

1578
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:35,600
Speaker 3: never a billionaire.

1579
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 2: Saying his defense, that's math.

1580
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 3: He did think that's a balance sheet. Like we've now

1581
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 3: gotten access because he had to like go to the

1582
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 3: bankruptcy and step down. So like now there's a caretaker

1583
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 3: trying to get people's money out of the company, and

1584
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:49,680
Speaker 3: we know shit, like we've seen the Excel files where

1585
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 3: they kept their financial records, and it's him being like

1586
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:55,479
Speaker 3: this is basically bullshit, Like sorry about this, we fucked

1587
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:58,240
Speaker 3: this up. We weren't actually keeping records here the company

1588
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:02,639
Speaker 3: balance sheet. There was no counting department people would file

1589
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:05,719
Speaker 3: their like like when they would spend hundreds and tens

1590
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 3: and hundreds of millions of dollars in things, they would

1591
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:10,120
Speaker 3: just message each other on signal about it to get

1592
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:13,800
Speaker 3: approval and had deleted messages on So there's actually like

1593
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 3: no record of a lot of the accounting. They did

1594
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 3: at one point hire and outside accounting firm to handle

1595
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 3: their accounting of this thirty two billion dollar company, and

1596
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 3: the firm they hired is the first. It bills itself

1597
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,679
Speaker 3: as the only metaverse based accounting firm.

1598
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:30,560
Speaker 2: Oh god his.

1599
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,639
Speaker 3: The accounting firm for this thirty two billion dollar company

1600
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 3: exists entirely within a crypto themed video game called decentral Land.

1601
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:44,160
Speaker 2: It is so fuck You're stupid with everything you're saying. Okay,

1602
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 2: so this is really this is bad and this feels

1603
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 2: bad to hear. I have a question, Yes, Jamie, who

1604
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 2: is I guess because I am I am kind of

1605
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:58,599
Speaker 2: back in in Lozsey holmes Land, because that whole lasts.

1606
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 2: I mean, like departments that should be you know, taking

1607
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,960
Speaker 2: care of shit don't even exist, which is very Farohose

1608
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:12,519
Speaker 2: adjacent to me. Yeah, Fernosian, if you will, As we've

1609
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 2: both written books, we can just make up for Yeah, of.

1610
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:17,559
Speaker 3: Course, Yeah, that's that's mostly what writing a book is.

1611
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 3: For sure.

1612
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 2: I view myself as the beta of this conversation, and

1613
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 2: so I feel comfortable asking you, Robert, who is ultimately

1614
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 2: affected by this? Like what is the like trickle down

1615
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 2: of this? What happens? Is it just other rich assholes

1616
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 2: or does it affect regular Like does it affect.

1617
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:45,479
Speaker 3: Probably there will presumably be some here's the thing, and

1618
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:48,040
Speaker 3: here is why there's that lawsuit against like Larry David

1619
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:51,640
Speaker 3: and all those other guys who appeared in the FTX. Yeah. Yeah,

1620
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:55,040
Speaker 3: presumably a bunch of regular people got suckered into putting

1621
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 3: their money on FTX, and those people are probably lost

1622
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 3: some money. That said, for the most part, it's fine

1623
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 3: because most of the people who lost money are like

1624
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 3: gamblers who probably suck as much as this guy did.

1625
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 3: And it's one of those things. There's just an article

1626
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:14,320
Speaker 3: I think at Financial Times where someone's like, actually, and

1627
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 3: I think they actually had a good point. We shouldn't

1628
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:19,760
Speaker 3: regulate the crypto industry because if we regulated, it will

1629
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 3: be brought in closer to the actual financial industry as

1630
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:24,960
Speaker 3: it exists, and banks will put more investments into crypto

1631
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 3: and it will get seen as like legitimate and backed

1632
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,320
Speaker 3: by the state. And so when these conmen destroy tens

1633
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 3: of billions of dollars overnight and cause panic in the industry,

1634
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:35,400
Speaker 3: it will affect the real economy. And right now it

1635
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 3: doesn't seem to And like, yeah, I guess that is k.

1636
01:20:38,240 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 3: That's not a bad point. Maybe we just let it

1637
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:41,360
Speaker 3: die on its own.

1638
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 2: I don't know, and it seems like sot more like

1639
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:45,840
Speaker 2: we'll know more.

1640
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, yeah, we will continue to learn more. One

1641
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:51,720
Speaker 3: of the things that's funniest about this is that Sequoia,

1642
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:54,800
Speaker 3: this investment firm, put like two hundred million dollars into

1643
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 3: the company, which they have all written off. Now they're

1644
01:20:56,960 --> 01:20:59,559
Speaker 3: accepting it as a total loss.

1645
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:01,360
Speaker 2: Going full back girl on this.

1646
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, when you hear this very serious investment firm

1647
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 3: put two hundred million dollars into this business, you probably

1648
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:10,639
Speaker 3: assume Jamie Well, I bet he had a good pitch,

1649
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:12,480
Speaker 3: right I Actually.

1650
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:14,599
Speaker 2: I don't know if we're talking farahns. I actually don't

1651
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 2: think that that is that's not just qualifying to have

1652
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 2: a dogshit pitch.

1653
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:20,439
Speaker 3: You know you know who can make this clear for

1654
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 3: us is Captain Dick Ryder. Oh. Thanks, SBF told Sequoya

1655
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 3: about the so called super app. I want FTX to

1656
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 3: be a place where you can do anything you want

1657
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 3: with your next dollar. You can buy bitcoin, you can

1658
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 3: send money in whatever currency to any friend anywhere in

1659
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:36,120
Speaker 3: the world. You can buy a banana. You can do

1660
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:38,879
Speaker 3: anything with you you want with your money from inside FTX.

1661
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:41,440
Speaker 3: Suddenly the chat.

1662
01:21:44,439 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 2: Banana cod I don't know.

1663
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 3: I feel like I can do anything I want with

1664
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 3: my debit card. Like I've never run into a thing

1665
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,200
Speaker 3: I wanted to buy and been like, ah, I cannot.

1666
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:57,679
Speaker 2: No, how do I act? I can even buy.

1667
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:00,600
Speaker 3: Drugs with it by going to an ATM. If I

1668
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:02,800
Speaker 3: were to be a person who buys drugs, which I'm not,

1669
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:05,679
Speaker 3: I could go to an ATM and take out cash

1670
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 3: and purchase support. You're a local drug.

1671
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 2: Dealer and banana vendor.

1672
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,639
Speaker 3: For crying out, I'm beloud. So he gives this banana

1673
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:17,200
Speaker 3: pitch quote. Suddenly the chat window on Sequoia's side of

1674
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:20,680
Speaker 3: the zoom lights up with partners freaking out. I love this,

1675
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:23,600
Speaker 3: founder typed one partner I am a tin out of

1676
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 3: tin pinged another, Yes, exclamation point, exclamation point, explaclamation point

1677
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 3: exclaimed a third. What Sequoia was reacting to was the

1678
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 3: scale of SBF's vision. It wasn't a story about how

1679
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:38,160
Speaker 3: we might use fintech in the future, or crypto crypto

1680
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 3: or a new kind of bank. It was a vision

1681
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:43,160
Speaker 3: about the future of money itself, with a total addressable

1682
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 3: market of every person on the entire planet. I sit

1683
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:49,679
Speaker 3: ten feet from him, and I know it's these people

1684
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 3: are just.

1685
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:54,960
Speaker 2: Shows three executives doing lines of coke and one swallowing

1686
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 2: a banana with the peel still on. They're like, yes, yep,

1687
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 2: oh my god, Okay, yeah, so it's I mean, which

1688
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 2: does kind of continue with the trend of like, you know,

1689
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 2: as as MEF has never had a problem or a

1690
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 2: like anything to overcome, Like if it's this easy for

1691
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:17,120
Speaker 2: him to con people into shit, like, of course you

1692
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 2: would have a god complex. You've never you've never been

1693
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:20,720
Speaker 2: told no.

1694
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 3: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, it's cool. So what Sequoia

1695
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:27,640
Speaker 3: was re yeah, sorry, I have to continue this this

1696
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 3: fucking quote, and next he's going to talk about a

1697
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 3: person who works at Sequoia and is in the room

1698
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 3: for this. I sent ten feet from him, and I

1699
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 3: walked over thinking, oh shit, that was really good, remembers Aurora.

1700
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 3: And it turns out that fucker was playing League of

1701
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,720
Speaker 3: Legends through the entire meeting. And this is framed in

1702
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 3: the article and in all the coverage before everything fell apart,

1703
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 3: is like, so awesome, He's so cool. This writer talks

1704
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 3: a bunch about how like Sam never stops playing video

1705
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 3: games when he's talking to this writer, when he's having

1706
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 3: corporate meetings, he's playing video games basically one hundred percent

1707
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:01,600
Speaker 3: of the time. And this is always mentioned, is like

1708
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,120
Speaker 3: he's always working. He's always in the office. He sleeps

1709
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:06,639
Speaker 3: in a bean bag chariot his desk, and it's like, no, dude,

1710
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 3: he's not always working. He's conning you and he plays

1711
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 3: video games all the time and pretends that that's a

1712
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:16,719
Speaker 3: fucking job, which is great, great con good for.

1713
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:19,759
Speaker 2: You, buddy, always working in always there two very different

1714
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 2: flavors of things happening exactly.

1715
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:25,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all part of the fucking con. So is

1716
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:27,519
Speaker 3: the fact that he always he always wore like ratty

1717
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 3: old athletic shorts and like a wrinkled T shirt because like,

1718
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:33,400
Speaker 3: that's for if you are a young man in the

1719
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:36,240
Speaker 3: tech industry. That makes people think you're a genius, right,

1720
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:38,280
Speaker 3: because genius is dressed like shit.

1721
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, He's like, now if I bring a real stink

1722
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 2: into the room, people are gonna like jack up my

1723
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:48,800
Speaker 2: already fake IQ score about twenty points. Yeah, this is

1724
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:49,679
Speaker 2: fucking horseshit.

1725
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:51,760
Speaker 3: And it's what you know who else dresses like shit?

1726
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:57,280
Speaker 3: The guy I used to buy weed from, Oh yeah

1727
01:24:57,360 --> 01:25:01,759
Speaker 3: yeah yeah. Also, you know who wears the same outfit

1728
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 3: as Sam Bankman Freed, my old buddy who once at

1729
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 3: a party got into an argument with a guy and

1730
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 3: broke fifteen bones in his face because they were both drinking.

1731
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:15,960
Speaker 3: Not a corporate genius. I do like that.

1732
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:18,439
Speaker 2: Shared aesthetic where it's like, really, the difference is the

1733
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:22,040
Speaker 2: pet snake that is, Yeah, that's the that's that's how

1734
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 2: you truly can sniff out Yeah, the million.

1735
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:31,679
Speaker 3: He's basically he's the same kind of person as Elizabeth

1736
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 3: Holmes and he was again he's a confidence man. And

1737
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,560
Speaker 3: this gets us into the Larry David shit because the

1738
01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:39,679
Speaker 3: thing about being a confidence man is that as long

1739
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 3: as people are convinced, there's money. Their money is safe,

1740
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:44,400
Speaker 3: and most of them don't try to pull it out.

1741
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:46,800
Speaker 3: Then you can keep the con going and you can

1742
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:49,760
Speaker 3: keep the fake numbers increasing, and you everyone will think

1743
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 3: you're richer and you can actually get real money out

1744
01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:54,080
Speaker 3: of this. So one of the things that he did

1745
01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 3: is he would pour shitloads of money into sponsorship deals

1746
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:00,639
Speaker 3: and to other ventures to make his companies seemed legit.

1747
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 3: One way he did this come in Yeah. He spent

1748
01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:05,880
Speaker 3: seventeen and a half million through FTX to sponsor the

1749
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:09,280
Speaker 3: athletic teams at UC Berkeley. He launched a twenty million

1750
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 3: dollar ad campaign with Tom Brady and Jaselle Bunchin. He

1751
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 3: offered NFTs at coachellyd uh huh. And he spent one

1752
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:18,840
Speaker 3: hundred and thirty five million dollars on the naming rights

1753
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 3: for the Miami Heats Home arena. And this is all

1754
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:24,960
Speaker 3: to build confidence, right you see. It's the fuck. It's

1755
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 3: the same thing Crypto dot com did, by the way

1756
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 3: with the arena, and what to say.

1757
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 2: I was like, I feel like the Crypto dot com

1758
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 2: arena is not long for this world, and you so.

1759
01:26:32,880 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 1: We don't should I don't recognize that as an act?

1760
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 3: Is my money safe? In this thing that's a bank,

1761
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 3: but not a bank. Well, their name is on the arena,

1762
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:42,599
Speaker 3: so it's probably legit.

1763
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:45,679
Speaker 2: Here's the thing is like, Yeah, it's like now walking

1764
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:48,280
Speaker 2: into the crypto dot com Maria Arena. I couldn't feel

1765
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 2: less safe. I couldn't feel less secure nobody like when

1766
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:53,960
Speaker 2: it was the Staples Center. I'm like, oh, you know,

1767
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:57,000
Speaker 2: it's never going to go out of style. Little books.

1768
01:26:57,400 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 3: People have been using Staples since we were cavemen.

1769
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 1: And I assume so, yes, you technology just like the

1770
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 1: wors fucking name on Earth.

1771
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:08,519
Speaker 3: It's it infuriates me these people.

1772
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 2: Yes, Sophia has a dog in the fight I do.

1773
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 3: In his interview with Vox, Sam basically admits this, albeit

1774
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 3: in a slightly careful way. Journalist so FTX technically wasn't

1775
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:21,720
Speaker 3: gambling with their money. FTX had just loaned their money

1776
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 3: to Alameda, who hadn't who had gambled with their money

1777
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:26,479
Speaker 3: and lost it. And you didn't realize it was a

1778
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:28,600
Speaker 3: big deal because you didn't realize how much money it was,

1779
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:32,360
Speaker 3: Sam responds, and also I thought Alameda had enough collateral

1780
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:35,560
Speaker 3: to reasonably cover it. Journalist says, I get how you

1781
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:37,120
Speaker 3: could have gotten away with it, But I guess that

1782
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 3: seems sketchy even if you get away with it, Sam,

1783
01:27:40,040 --> 01:27:42,760
Speaker 3: it was never the intention. Sometimes life creeps up on you.

1784
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:47,200
Speaker 2: So said, life comes at you fast.

1785
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 3: Life comes fast. So Sam's needworth taps at it around

1786
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:54,559
Speaker 3: twenty two billion dollars on paper. In reality, neither Alameda

1787
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 3: nor FTX had ever taken in even close to that

1788
01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:00,200
Speaker 3: much money. The valuation was based entirely on nonsen sense

1789
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:04,439
Speaker 3: calculations that were themselves based on lies from ftx's extremely

1790
01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:06,639
Speaker 3: cooked books. There's a lot more about this than we're

1791
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:09,160
Speaker 3: getting into. People are still finding this all out. There

1792
01:28:09,240 --> 01:28:10,920
Speaker 3: is one thing I should probably read, which is, so

1793
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:13,960
Speaker 3: you know, when his company collapsed, he had to step

1794
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 3: down from running it, right, and because a lot of

1795
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:18,720
Speaker 3: money is still in there and a lot of like

1796
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:22,240
Speaker 3: investments are still tight up in that, they put a

1797
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:24,960
Speaker 3: guy in charge of the company again, right. And there's

1798
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:29,320
Speaker 3: like there's specific dudes in the business world whose like

1799
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:32,439
Speaker 3: job is to come in when a company fucks up

1800
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:35,320
Speaker 3: like this and like try and get as much money

1801
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:38,880
Speaker 3: back out for the shareholders as possible to minimize the bleeding.

1802
01:28:39,360 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 2: So they kind of have like a like how they

1803
01:28:42,439 --> 01:28:45,200
Speaker 2: they had like old Hollywood. They have like a fixer guy.

1804
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:46,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have a fan and this is

1805
01:28:47,080 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 3: this fixer guy. Specifically, he is the guy that they

1806
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:53,880
Speaker 3: brought in when Inron. He took over INRN after it

1807
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:56,560
Speaker 3: fell apart in order to try and like minimize the

1808
01:28:56,640 --> 01:28:58,559
Speaker 3: damage from it. So he is the guy who got

1809
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:00,800
Speaker 3: brought in to deal with like the fact that this

1810
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 3: massive fucking crime happened with Inron one sec.

1811
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:09,880
Speaker 2: My favorite, my favorite n RUN memory, not that you asked, Rud,

1812
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,720
Speaker 2: was the women of Enron playboy spread that I got

1813
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 2: to archive during my time there. Oh god, boy, did

1814
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 2: those Enron girl bosses have their their so as second

1815
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 2: only to Women of seven to eleven, which is my

1816
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:28,120
Speaker 2: actual favorite spread. Continue.

1817
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 3: First off, you note this company has about a million creditors,

1818
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 3: so about a million people possibly lost their entire investment

1819
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:36,840
Speaker 3: in this company, which is a stunning amount of people

1820
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:40,640
Speaker 3: to take money from. And again they're probably we are

1821
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:43,320
Speaker 3: probably looking at like five or ten billion dollars stolen

1822
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:45,679
Speaker 3: something like that. It's kind of unclear the exact amount,

1823
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:48,280
Speaker 3: but anyway, this is what the guy in the Delaware

1824
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 3: bankruptcy court filing. This is what the guy who was

1825
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:54,840
Speaker 3: the guy who took over in Ron after it became

1826
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 3: clear that the whole company was a criminal enterprise. This

1827
01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 3: is what that guy wrote about Sam's company. No, Okay,

1828
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:03,960
Speaker 3: Never in my career have I seen such a complete

1829
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 3: failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of

1830
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:11,719
Speaker 3: trustworthy financial information has occurred here. From compromised systems integrity

1831
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:15,360
Speaker 3: and faulty regulatory oversight abroad to the concentration of control

1832
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:19,040
Speaker 3: in the hands of a very small group of inexperienced, unsophisticated,

1833
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 3: and potentially compromised individuals, this situation is unprecedented. Again, that's

1834
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 3: the guy who took over in ROD.

1835
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:30,200
Speaker 2: I was like, he's literally like Bill Clinton dropping a

1836
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,080
Speaker 2: notes post being like, never have I seen a more

1837
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:35,200
Speaker 2: cheated on my wife in anything?

1838
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:40,200
Speaker 3: Like so absurd? Well, I will say it's different. This

1839
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 3: guy did not commit any of the in Ron crimes, right,

1840
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:42,840
Speaker 3: This is the.

1841
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 2: Guy who saw them all.

1842
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 3: This guy is after he's brought in it becomes clear

1843
01:30:48,640 --> 01:30:49,080
Speaker 3: that the.

1844
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:53,639
Speaker 2: Last guy starting consents with. Never in my career this guy.

1845
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:56,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably best to look at this guy as

1846
01:30:56,240 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 3: like an e MT. When it becomes clear that a

1847
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 3: company that has a shitload of money in it and

1848
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:05,240
Speaker 3: is central in the economy has collapsed because people broke

1849
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 3: the law. He comes in to minimize the damage. But

1850
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,720
Speaker 3: he was not working at Enron previously, right, Like, it's

1851
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:12,920
Speaker 3: not he's not trying to like stop anyone from getting

1852
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:15,479
Speaker 3: in trouble. He's trying to minimize how many people are

1853
01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:18,760
Speaker 3: hurt by this. Yeah, anyway, well of course, yeah, I

1854
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:21,040
Speaker 3: just want to make clear, like that guy's anyway whatever.

1855
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not the en Runner.

1856
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:24,840
Speaker 3: He is not the end runnor he did not make

1857
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 3: in Ron bad. He's just was there afterwards and was like,

1858
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:29,160
Speaker 3: this company's even worse.

1859
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 2: He bought the issue of Playboy and then he kept

1860
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 2: it push it.

1861
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:34,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I should God, there's yeah, we're we're getting

1862
01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:37,040
Speaker 3: close to done. I should note that before everything collapsed.

1863
01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:39,559
Speaker 3: Sam again, he's in the effect of altruism. He's he's

1864
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:42,120
Speaker 3: he promised to donate like a couple one hundred million

1865
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:44,840
Speaker 3: dollars to these EA causes. A lot less than that

1866
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 3: actually wound got out. Some of them were good, but

1867
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:50,519
Speaker 3: a lot of it was like so he made a

1868
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:52,840
Speaker 3: huge point that he was like his one of his

1869
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:56,559
Speaker 3: major priorities was pandemic prevention. Right, we have to stop

1870
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:58,400
Speaker 3: the next pandemic. I'm going to put as much money

1871
01:31:58,439 --> 01:32:01,880
Speaker 3: as I can to pandemic prevention. That's the best effective

1872
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:05,680
Speaker 3: altruist thing that I can do. To talk about how

1873
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:07,479
Speaker 3: well that actually worked, I want to quote from the

1874
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:11,320
Speaker 3: Washington Post here. FTX backed projects ranged from a twelve

1875
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:14,439
Speaker 3: million dollars to champion a California ballot initiative to strengthen

1876
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:18,240
Speaker 3: public health programs and detect emerging virus threats. Amid lackluster support,

1877
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:21,000
Speaker 3: the measure was punted to twenty twenty four to investing

1878
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 3: more than eleven million on the unsuccessful congressional primary campaign

1879
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:27,360
Speaker 3: of an Oregon biosecurity expert, and even one hundred and

1880
01:32:27,439 --> 01:32:30,879
Speaker 3: fifty thousand dollars gram to help Moncleff Slough, the scientific

1881
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 3: advisor to the Trump Administration's Operation Warp Speed vaccine Accelerator,

1882
01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 3: write his memoire. So that sounds like a giant waste

1883
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:40,479
Speaker 3: of money, right, that sounds like this none of it ran,

1884
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:42,920
Speaker 3: even if it was like good, it sounds like it didn't.

1885
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:45,680
Speaker 3: Like even if the goals were good, like well, the

1886
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:48,400
Speaker 3: ballot measure failed like it or got punted. So it's

1887
01:32:48,439 --> 01:32:51,959
Speaker 3: not like it worked. And it gets worse because SBF's

1888
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 3: fund also put a lot of money, like five million

1889
01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:56,600
Speaker 3: dollars into Pro Publica. In Pro Publica, they've done a

1890
01:32:56,680 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 3: lot of cool stuff. They also published extremely flawed investigation

1891
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:06,320
Speaker 3: that backed the lab leak hypothesis. I'm going to the

1892
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,840
Speaker 3: La Times and their analysis of this deeply flawed piece

1893
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:10,320
Speaker 3: of reporting.

1894
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:12,400
Speaker 2: And also, you know, we've got some notes for the

1895
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 2: La Times as well.

1896
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:17,400
Speaker 3: Yes, nobody's perfect. The La Times called it a train wreck,

1897
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 3: noting the article is based heavily on Chinese language documents

1898
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:23,680
Speaker 3: that appear to have been mistranslated and misinterpreted, according to

1899
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:26,920
Speaker 3: Chinese language experts who have piled on via social media

1900
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:29,719
Speaker 3: since its publication. It also takes his gospel or report

1901
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:32,719
Speaker 3: by a rump group of Republican congressional staff members asserting

1902
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:35,120
Speaker 3: that the pandemic was more likely than not the result

1903
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:37,920
Speaker 3: of a research related incident. And this has been the

1904
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 3: fact that Pro Publica published this has like provided a

1905
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 3: shitload of fuel to the it was all a fucking

1906
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:49,000
Speaker 3: lab leak from China. It's China's fault. Republican Yeah, Sam

1907
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:53,960
Speaker 3: Bankman Freed funded that shit, and my god, yeah, basically

1908
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:56,000
Speaker 3: none of the shit he was putting in money into

1909
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:58,560
Speaker 3: that was supposed to be good really worked, and a

1910
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:01,599
Speaker 3: lot of it was another thing the right is doing

1911
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:03,880
Speaker 3: right now as they're talking about. He was like the

1912
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 3: number one or number two donor to Democrats during the

1913
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:10,280
Speaker 3: midterm elections, right, Seth MacFarlane.

1914
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but.

1915
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:13,720
Speaker 3: None of his donations worked. And also he gave it

1916
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:15,759
Speaker 3: was like thirty two million he gave to the DIMS.

1917
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:18,160
Speaker 3: He gave like twenty four million to the Republicans. And

1918
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:21,120
Speaker 3: the reason he was giving this money number one, there

1919
01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:24,880
Speaker 3: were some like pro pandemic response candidates he wanted to back,

1920
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 3: most of whom didn't you know, do well. But also

1921
01:34:28,439 --> 01:34:31,080
Speaker 3: like a lot of the money was towards Republican and

1922
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:34,439
Speaker 3: Democratic candidates who were going to be part of the

1923
01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:36,600
Speaker 3: regulation of the crypto industry because he wanted to have

1924
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:38,519
Speaker 3: a seat at the table and push regulations in a

1925
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:38,840
Speaker 3: way that.

1926
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so yeah, candidate that would enable.

1927
01:34:41,479 --> 01:34:47,760
Speaker 3: That is yeah, exactly. So. Anyway, in general, nothing at

1928
01:34:47,840 --> 01:34:50,639
Speaker 3: Alameda or FTX was as it seemed, and that Dick

1929
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:54,600
Speaker 3: writing Sequoia article Carolyn Ellison, the CEO of Alameda is

1930
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:57,920
Speaker 3: he talks about her a bit and like she frames

1931
01:34:57,960 --> 01:35:00,559
Speaker 3: her as like this, quintessential innocent nerd girl, O plucky

1932
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 3: and ethical and optimistic to show like these are the

1933
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,640
Speaker 3: kind of you know, smart young gin z kids that

1934
01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:08,360
Speaker 3: are you know, building this this great company, and like

1935
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:11,280
Speaker 3: she showed up in larp gear to meet with Sam

1936
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:14,200
Speaker 3: and talk about the future of their great financial enterprise,

1937
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:17,960
Speaker 3: and she's an ethical altruist. Since everything fell apart, it's

1938
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 3: come out that she and Sam were dating each other

1939
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:23,320
Speaker 3: and possibly other members of the company. And also people

1940
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:24,240
Speaker 3: have found.

1941
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 2: Her of the full Liz Holmes. Look here we go.

1942
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:32,120
Speaker 3: People have found her tumbler, and boy is she sketchy

1943
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 3: as hell. I'm going to quote from a report on

1944
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:39,720
Speaker 3: her tumbler activity in dcrypt dot com. Boy howdy. When

1945
01:35:39,720 --> 01:35:42,240
Speaker 3: I first started my first foray into Polly, I thought

1946
01:35:42,240 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 3: of it as a radical break from my trad past,

1947
01:35:44,479 --> 01:35:47,599
Speaker 3: the account wrote in February twenty twenty. But tbh, I've

1948
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 3: come to decide that the only acceptable style of Polly

1949
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:53,479
Speaker 3: is it best characterizes something like imperial Chinese harem. The

1950
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:56,599
Speaker 3: account went onto detail how a polyamorous dynamic should ideally

1951
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:00,240
Speaker 3: function as a cutthroat market of sexual competition and subjectation.

1952
01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:04,439
Speaker 3: None of this non hierarchical bullshit. The account elaborated everyone

1953
01:36:04,439 --> 01:36:06,280
Speaker 3: should have a ranking of their partners, people should know

1954
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:07,640
Speaker 3: where they fall in the ranking, and there should be

1955
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:12,200
Speaker 3: vicious power struggles for the ranks. Good it gets worse, Jamie.

1956
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 3: The Ellison linked account also demonstrated a substantial preoccupation with

1957
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 3: HBD or human biodiversity, an online euphemism for the discredited

1958
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:24,360
Speaker 3: fields of race science and eugenics. Popularized Wait all right,

1959
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:28,640
Speaker 3: oh oh boy, give me one more paragraph and then

1960
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,679
Speaker 3: we can talk about this. Jamie Ellison has for years

1961
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,439
Speaker 3: vocalized her Dieheart obsession with Harry Potter. In one post,

1962
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:38,639
Speaker 3: her affiliated Tumblr account tied her love of online character

1963
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:41,720
Speaker 3: crizes Quizzz to her pin shot for sorting Indians by

1964
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 3: their cast, which she presumed to indicate genetic distinction. Oh

1965
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:47,639
Speaker 3: my god, holy shit.

1966
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:51,760
Speaker 2: Even JK Rowling wasn't thinking something that fucked up. And

1967
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:54,400
Speaker 2: that's really saying something someone.

1968
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:56,640
Speaker 3: Is amazing astonishing.

1969
01:36:57,920 --> 01:37:01,240
Speaker 2: Tumblr is exclusively for sure fan fiction and things that

1970
01:37:01,320 --> 01:37:06,240
Speaker 2: trigger my eating disorder. That's the hit I cannot fuk like, Oh,

1971
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:07,479
Speaker 2: that's so dark.

1972
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:10,719
Speaker 3: It's I almost can't fathom it. Right, And again, there's

1973
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:12,720
Speaker 3: so much. We probably will do a follow up at

1974
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:15,040
Speaker 3: some point because like the fact that the fact that

1975
01:37:15,080 --> 01:37:17,320
Speaker 3: it was this easy for like some fucking crypto rag

1976
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:19,759
Speaker 3: they're the only ones who reported on it. To find

1977
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:23,040
Speaker 3: her tumblr where she talks about race science, makes me

1978
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 3: think these guys were all probably into a lot more

1979
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:28,680
Speaker 3: fucked up shit than they let on. H Yeah, so

1980
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:32,559
Speaker 3: we'll see, God, we'll see. I just.

1981
01:37:34,720 --> 01:37:38,280
Speaker 2: We don't have the hour for me to decompress the

1982
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 2: way I need to after hearing that sentence specific.

1983
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:42,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I need a cigarette.

1984
01:37:43,240 --> 01:37:47,320
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start smoking today. And she's fucking happy. Oh

1985
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:51,120
Speaker 2: my god, that is That is so funny, brutal place

1986
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:54,960
Speaker 2: to land, so fucking geez the way.

1987
01:37:55,360 --> 01:37:58,160
Speaker 3: Hopefully they're all all of their money's gone, but they

1988
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:01,880
Speaker 3: probably squirreled away millions and stuff for themselves. Although at

1989
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:03,880
Speaker 3: least one of the articles I've read says that like

1990
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:07,519
Speaker 3: his net worth is effectively zero now, but I don't

1991
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 3: think anyone actually knows what his net worth is right

1992
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:13,519
Speaker 3: now and how much he got, Like his company went

1993
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:17,000
Speaker 3: from valued at thirty two billion dollars to most recently

1994
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:19,040
Speaker 3: there's something like six hundred and fifty thousand dollars in

1995
01:38:19,160 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 3: actual assets left. But I also kind of think he

1996
01:38:23,320 --> 01:38:26,200
Speaker 3: and the others probably have millions or tens of millions

1997
01:38:26,280 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 3: that they set aside in shady ways for themselves.

1998
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:35,040
Speaker 2: Wow. Oh yeah, I mean well that does sound like

1999
01:38:35,240 --> 01:38:38,479
Speaker 2: what the Beanie Babies guy would do. And that is

2000
01:38:38,520 --> 01:38:43,320
Speaker 2: my yardstick for morality. That is so that that is very,

2001
01:38:43,439 --> 01:38:47,400
Speaker 2: very scary to consider. I feel like guys like that.

2002
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 2: The thing that is, I mean, I don't know, whenever

2003
01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:54,640
Speaker 2: you hear about like, it is so karmically satisfying to

2004
01:38:54,840 --> 01:38:59,080
Speaker 2: note that someone like SBF can can be completely bottomed

2005
01:38:59,120 --> 01:39:02,519
Speaker 2: out and like destroyed by something like this. But the

2006
01:39:02,600 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 2: thing is like, when when rich guys like that lose everything,

2007
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 2: they just come up with worse, more hateful ideas and

2008
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 2: then come back. And that is like always what kind

2009
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:13,640
Speaker 2: of scares.

2010
01:39:13,320 --> 01:39:13,800
Speaker 1: Me about that?

2011
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:19,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is so funny. I don't know, Jamis, I.

2012
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:20,880
Speaker 2: Don't know what the solution is. That's not like I

2013
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:23,120
Speaker 2: want them to have money again. I just you know,

2014
01:39:24,439 --> 01:39:27,519
Speaker 2: how can you make someone say less again? I think

2015
01:39:27,600 --> 01:39:29,200
Speaker 2: the podcaster's dilemma.

2016
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:34,320
Speaker 3: Look here here's where I'll land on this. You know,

2017
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:38,080
Speaker 3: I don't think I don't think people should be thrown

2018
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:41,360
Speaker 3: into cages generally unless there's literally no other way to

2019
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:43,960
Speaker 3: stop them from harming folks, so and I don't think

2020
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:47,559
Speaker 3: that's the case with these people. So instead, I think

2021
01:39:47,680 --> 01:39:52,400
Speaker 3: the actual solution is to close from the outside all

2022
01:39:52,479 --> 01:39:57,320
Speaker 3: of the doors to that the fucking rich person apartment

2023
01:39:57,400 --> 01:40:01,400
Speaker 3: complex they occupy in that Bahamas, de lock it from

2024
01:40:01,439 --> 01:40:04,800
Speaker 3: the outside, and once a week drop in food and

2025
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:08,760
Speaker 3: necessities via a helicopter and never let them leave or

2026
01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:11,800
Speaker 3: use the internet again. Yeah, them all just be with

2027
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:14,479
Speaker 3: their friends and they're in their weird little compound going

2028
01:40:14,600 --> 01:40:16,880
Speaker 3: increasingly insane with their Chinese harem shit.

2029
01:40:17,200 --> 01:40:17,479
Speaker 2: I don't know.

2030
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:19,640
Speaker 3: I guess that's another kind of prison. But if we

2031
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:21,040
Speaker 3: film it, we can make money.

2032
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:25,280
Speaker 2: But then SBF might may have to face his worst fear,

2033
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:26,479
Speaker 2: which is reading a book.

2034
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:30,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess. Like my serious answer is what do

2035
01:40:30,400 --> 01:40:32,519
Speaker 3: you do to people like this, is you stop them

2036
01:40:32,560 --> 01:40:36,280
Speaker 3: from ever being able to have access to money again,

2037
01:40:36,560 --> 01:40:40,479
Speaker 3: or start companies again, and hopefully eventually they find something

2038
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:43,840
Speaker 3: to do that actually helps human beings and is like

2039
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:47,680
Speaker 3: like of any kind of use, like working at a

2040
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:50,800
Speaker 3: grocery store, that's a real benefit. People need to get

2041
01:40:50,840 --> 01:40:54,599
Speaker 3: food and people need like that's a respectable, honest way

2042
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:58,400
Speaker 3: to make a living, and if any of these people

2043
01:40:58,439 --> 01:41:00,240
Speaker 3: were to get a job working at a safe way,

2044
01:41:00,560 --> 01:41:03,640
Speaker 3: they would be providing an infinitely greater benefit to the

2045
01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:05,879
Speaker 3: human race than they could ever have performed.

2046
01:41:06,040 --> 01:41:08,960
Speaker 2: Perhaps a bit more of that ethical side of the

2047
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:12,320
Speaker 2: ethical altruism you're looking. Yes, I'll be honest. I did

2048
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:14,479
Speaker 2: not come to the recording today with a solution for

2049
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:15,920
Speaker 2: the prison industrial complex.

2050
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:16,680
Speaker 3: But I don't have it.

2051
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:20,320
Speaker 2: I still don't like it. I still don't love it.

2052
01:41:21,640 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I have no solution. But you know what

2053
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:29,840
Speaker 3: I do have, Jamie, what you're pluggables?

2054
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:32,280
Speaker 2: No, you don't. I have those?

2055
01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:35,280
Speaker 3: Well, you have them, but I'm letting you have them.

2056
01:41:35,840 --> 01:41:37,639
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I mean I'm giving.

2057
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: I mean I could probably do them. If nobody wants

2058
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:42,000
Speaker 1: to take this job, I'll.

2059
01:41:41,840 --> 01:41:43,840
Speaker 2: Do I can, I'll do them. Oh, Sophy, do you

2060
01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:45,160
Speaker 2: want to do them? Yeah?

2061
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:49,200
Speaker 1: I mean. You can pre order Jamie's book and that

2062
01:41:49,479 --> 01:41:54,040
Speaker 1: that is linked in her Instagram bio true. You can

2063
01:41:54,120 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 1: follow her on Instagram at Jamie christ Superstar, and you

2064
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:00,479
Speaker 1: can follow her on Twitter a Jamie leftis Help if

2065
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:04,200
Speaker 1: Twitter is still around. She has a podcast that she

2066
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:07,720
Speaker 1: co hosts with Caitlin Dorade called The Bechdel Cast. You

2067
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:11,000
Speaker 1: should listen to her many limited run series, including her

2068
01:42:11,080 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 1: most recent run, which is Ghost.

2069
01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 2: Church and Sophie produced along with the Vitel Cast and

2070
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:18,400
Speaker 2: everything every podcast on the planet.

2071
01:42:18,439 --> 01:42:21,400
Speaker 1: This has now become a plug for me. Do I

2072
01:42:21,479 --> 01:42:22,320
Speaker 1: get everything, Jamie?

2073
01:42:23,320 --> 01:42:26,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what I would have said, except worse.

2074
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:30,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, So pre order Raw Dog.

2075
01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:34,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, Sophie. Yeah, pre order Raw Dog. If you

2076
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:37,880
Speaker 2: listen to the hot Dog episode of Bastards and didn't

2077
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:40,479
Speaker 2: like it, you did like it, now buy the book.

2078
01:42:41,000 --> 01:42:44,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, legally, you did like it. And if you disagree

2079
01:42:44,040 --> 01:42:47,960
Speaker 3: with that statement, we will send the CIA to kill

2080
01:42:48,000 --> 01:42:49,360
Speaker 3: your family. Yeah.

2081
01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:52,160
Speaker 2: That, and let's make sure to attribute that quote to

2082
01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:55,120
Speaker 2: Robert Evans specifically. There we go, And.

2083
01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:59,639
Speaker 1: Speaking of Robert Evans specifically, Robert Evans specifically, Margaret kill

2084
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:02,160
Speaker 1: Joyce specifically, and myself, we'll be doing a Behind the

2085
01:43:02,200 --> 01:43:06,880
Speaker 1: Bastard's virtual live stream show on December eighth. You can

2086
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:10,320
Speaker 1: get tickets at moment dot co slash bTB.

2087
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:16,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, I have a substack now because Twitter's not

2088
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:21,680
Speaker 3: doing great. So that makes me so sad. Why I

2089
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:23,800
Speaker 3: like writing things. I got to write a thing last

2090
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 3: night to write more things.

2091
01:43:26,400 --> 01:43:28,040
Speaker 2: I subscribe better for me than being on.

2092
01:43:28,120 --> 01:43:30,840
Speaker 3: Twitter all the goddamn time. Yeah, you can find it

2093
01:43:30,920 --> 01:43:34,600
Speaker 3: at shatterzone dot substack dot com. Go there and I

2094
01:43:34,680 --> 01:43:36,720
Speaker 3: will be writing. I'll try to write something every week.

2095
01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:40,280
Speaker 3: Maybe I won't, maybe all of this will will fall apart,

2096
01:43:40,439 --> 01:43:43,360
Speaker 3: be lost in time like tears in the rain. Or

2097
01:43:43,479 --> 01:43:45,800
Speaker 3: maybe you'll get a new thing for me every week.

2098
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:46,560
Speaker 3: There's no way to know.

2099
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:49,280
Speaker 2: Every time. Half the time when I get something from

2100
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:51,439
Speaker 2: someone's substacked, because I had subscribed to quite a few,

2101
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:53,599
Speaker 2: But every time I get a message from someone substack,

2102
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:56,880
Speaker 2: it's always like, I'm so sorry. I'm like, I didn't notice.

2103
01:43:57,200 --> 01:43:58,920
Speaker 2: Just give me the content and I'll.

2104
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:02,360
Speaker 3: Send you there about Yeah, yeah, it's fine. Look we all.

2105
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 3: I don't know. I've been meaning to write more stuff

2106
01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:09,360
Speaker 3: as opposed to just tweeting shit posts. So maybe it'll happen.

2107
01:44:09,479 --> 01:44:19,240
Speaker 3: Maybe it won't. There's no way to know. Perfect Welcome

2108
01:44:19,400 --> 01:44:22,840
Speaker 3: to the movies you liked as an adolescent and are

2109
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:26,960
Speaker 3: now ashamed of shamecast. I'm Robert Evans, and today in

2110
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:31,840
Speaker 3: the seat of eternal self hatred Jamie Loftus. Jamie, you

2111
01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:35,240
Speaker 3: have just admitted, prior to the show starting that you

2112
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:39,880
Speaker 3: once loved the Dana Carve vehicle Master of Disguise, What

2113
01:44:40,000 --> 01:44:41,240
Speaker 3: do you have to say for yourself?

2114
01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 2: I feel fucking sick with myself, Rubert. I haven't been

2115
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:48,639
Speaker 2: able to sleep in the twenty years since its release.

2116
01:44:49,240 --> 01:44:52,120
Speaker 2: In my defense, it came out on my birthday, which

2117
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:53,840
Speaker 2: I feel like I had a lot to do with

2118
01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 2: why I considered it my favorite movie. I felt a

2119
01:44:56,400 --> 01:44:57,200
Speaker 2: kingship with it.

2120
01:44:57,560 --> 01:45:00,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, birthdays are like a performance in enhancing drug for

2121
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:04,800
Speaker 3: movies that you see when you're eleven, Absolutely true, the

2122
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:07,839
Speaker 3: blood doping of positive movie memories.

2123
01:45:08,400 --> 01:45:11,320
Speaker 2: And furthermore, it's the most famous children's movie that was

2124
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:14,280
Speaker 2: shooting on nine to eleven, and so I think in

2125
01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:18,160
Speaker 2: that way, so it felt like it would have been

2126
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:23,120
Speaker 2: disloyal to my country to say a word against The

2127
01:45:23,240 --> 01:45:27,800
Speaker 2: Master of Disguise, particularly the turtle Turtle scene. However, you know,

2128
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:30,320
Speaker 2: I think the movie certainly doesn't hold up, and I

2129
01:45:30,880 --> 01:45:33,960
Speaker 2: feel fucking sick with myself every single day.

2130
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:39,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder because famously, Dana Carvey was dressed as

2131
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:41,840
Speaker 3: the Turtle Man when those planes hit those towers, and

2132
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:47,360
Speaker 3: James Cameron was twenty thousand feet below sea level exploring

2133
01:45:47,400 --> 01:45:49,400
Speaker 3: the bottom of the ocean, and I wonder if they

2134
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:52,200
Speaker 3: ever cross paths at like a Hollywood event, and started

2135
01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:54,320
Speaker 3: talking about nine to eleven, So what are you up

2136
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:55,160
Speaker 3: to on that day?

2137
01:45:56,960 --> 01:46:00,240
Speaker 2: And then Marl Alberg just leans in apropos of thing

2138
01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:02,160
Speaker 2: and is like, if I was there.

2139
01:46:02,439 --> 01:46:05,519
Speaker 3: I would have stopped it. Ah, Jamie, you know I

2140
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:08,400
Speaker 3: I I can honestly say nine to eleven was the

2141
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:10,439
Speaker 3: first time I felt like this country let me down

2142
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:15,479
Speaker 3: because it delayed the release of the seminal Tim Allen

2143
01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:19,559
Speaker 3: film Big Trouble, which uh it sure it sure did

2144
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:23,000
Speaker 3: features a classic Patrick Warburton performance. By the way, it

2145
01:46:23,320 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 3: sure do. Goddamn right. You see his ass, everybody, If

2146
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:29,479
Speaker 3: you want to see Patrick Warburton's ass, it's in that movie.

2147
01:46:30,280 --> 01:46:34,080
Speaker 2: He is so underrated. I absolutely love love that man,

2148
01:46:34,360 --> 01:46:35,960
Speaker 2: A total kid. The talent.

2149
01:46:37,880 --> 01:46:41,840
Speaker 1: Friends just to say, this is behind the this is behind.

2150
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:45,000
Speaker 3: The Bastards, a podcast about none of the things that

2151
01:46:45,120 --> 01:46:49,559
Speaker 3: we were talking about. Uh, and today, actually, Jamie, I've

2152
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:52,879
Speaker 3: got you back in the hot seat, back in the office,

2153
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:57,320
Speaker 3: which is more of an ephemeral feeling than a physical space, making.

2154
01:46:57,120 --> 01:46:59,760
Speaker 2: Me an answer for my sins right off the jump.

2155
01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:03,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, by talking again about our friend Sam Bankman Freed,

2156
01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:07,160
Speaker 3: who you and I chatted about right after his life

2157
01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:10,559
Speaker 3: collapsed last year, and I like we should do an update.

2158
01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:13,800
Speaker 2: I think we should too, because I'll be honest, I

2159
01:47:14,040 --> 01:47:18,479
Speaker 2: have done truly everything I can to avoid knowing more

2160
01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:21,120
Speaker 2: about him, so I would say I know basically nothing

2161
01:47:21,160 --> 01:47:22,519
Speaker 2: about him since we last spoke.

2162
01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:26,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's amazing because normally, you know, I'm an empathetic being,

2163
01:47:26,840 --> 01:47:29,000
Speaker 3: Like Sam has a face that I've just always wanted

2164
01:47:29,040 --> 01:47:30,840
Speaker 3: to hit from the first time I saw a picture

2165
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:34,679
Speaker 3: of him. And normally when somebody goes through this much shit,

2166
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:38,160
Speaker 3: when like their life is this ruined, right, like I might,

2167
01:47:38,280 --> 01:47:40,320
Speaker 3: I feel a little less like hitting them because the

2168
01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:42,639
Speaker 3: world has hit them, but I still kind of want

2169
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:46,040
Speaker 3: to sock him in the fucking jaw. Every time I

2170
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:47,040
Speaker 3: see this guy.

2171
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:52,839
Speaker 2: Let me just check it. Has his face changed.

2172
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 3: He wears suits sometimes now when he goes to court,

2173
01:47:56,080 --> 01:47:58,080
Speaker 3: he's not wearing the basketball shorts.

2174
01:47:58,240 --> 01:48:02,280
Speaker 2: Helpful and well that's god. Yeah, that's like two different

2175
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:07,479
Speaker 2: versions of an embarrassing, desperate way to present. Okay, he's

2176
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:08,840
Speaker 2: wearing a he's wearing a suit.

2177
01:48:08,920 --> 01:48:11,679
Speaker 3: Now, Yeah, he's wearing a suit. Now it looks like shit,

2178
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:15,000
Speaker 3: But whatever, of course, I try not to judge people

2179
01:48:15,080 --> 01:48:17,439
Speaker 3: on how they look unless that's part of their con

2180
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:21,560
Speaker 3: And Sam as a guy for whom the dressing like

2181
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:25,040
Speaker 3: a slab was always part of his his like tech

2182
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:28,680
Speaker 3: bro genius, you know, persona that he was putting on

2183
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:29,960
Speaker 3: like it'd.

2184
01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:33,719
Speaker 2: Be fooled every puce a mug shot.

2185
01:48:35,280 --> 01:48:37,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, there's god. I believe there's a mugshot

2186
01:48:37,240 --> 01:48:39,280
Speaker 3: of him out at this point, certainly when he went

2187
01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:42,800
Speaker 3: at the Bahamas. So when we last left our buddy

2188
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:45,200
Speaker 3: Sam in November of twenty twenty two, he had been

2189
01:48:45,280 --> 01:48:47,759
Speaker 3: arrested in the Bahamas and extradited to the United States,

2190
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:50,680
Speaker 3: where he was charged with so many financial crimes that

2191
01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:53,200
Speaker 3: he might theoretically spend more than one hundred and fifteen

2192
01:48:53,240 --> 01:48:53,880
Speaker 3: years in prison.

2193
01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:54,960
Speaker 2: Wow.

2194
01:48:55,120 --> 01:48:58,280
Speaker 3: Now, in the days and months since, a lot has happened,

2195
01:48:58,320 --> 01:49:00,160
Speaker 3: and a lot more has come out about how the

2196
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:03,680
Speaker 3: former crypto mogul behaved before and after his fall. I

2197
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:06,360
Speaker 3: want to start with some of the latter information, because

2198
01:49:06,400 --> 01:49:08,800
Speaker 3: by far the most entertaining story to drop as a

2199
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:12,200
Speaker 3: result of these serried legal filings against Sam is that

2200
01:49:12,640 --> 01:49:16,000
Speaker 3: he was using the nonprofit arm of FTX to attempt

2201
01:49:16,040 --> 01:49:18,000
Speaker 3: to buy a sovereign nation he could use as an

2202
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 3: apocalypse shelter. That is by far the funniest story that's

2203
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:25,280
Speaker 3: dropped about these guys in the days months since.

2204
01:49:26,040 --> 01:49:27,360
Speaker 2: What was the plan there?

2205
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:33,439
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a great question, Jamie. So let's talk about

2206
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:37,360
Speaker 3: the island of Nauru. It's an island in the southwest Pacific.

2207
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:39,599
Speaker 3: I think it's about twenty one hundred miles away from

2208
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:42,320
Speaker 3: the coast of Australia, which, given the fact that Australia

2209
01:49:42,400 --> 01:49:44,200
Speaker 3: is really out in the middle of nowhere, is pretty

2210
01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:49,120
Speaker 3: close to Australia. It is presently the world's smallest island nation.

2211
01:49:49,320 --> 01:49:51,519
Speaker 3: It's got a population of about twelve thousand or so,

2212
01:49:51,800 --> 01:49:55,240
Speaker 3: not a ton of people, and as an incredibly tiny country,

2213
01:49:55,360 --> 01:49:57,760
Speaker 3: one of its primary assets is simply the fact that

2214
01:49:57,920 --> 01:50:01,559
Speaker 3: it is a sovereign nation. There's things that countries can

2215
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:04,400
Speaker 3: do then nothing else can do, like issue certain kinds

2216
01:50:04,479 --> 01:50:07,040
Speaker 3: like passports and visas, and do certain kinds of things

2217
01:50:07,080 --> 01:50:09,439
Speaker 3: with banking. Right, So, if you were a really tiny

2218
01:50:09,600 --> 01:50:13,080
Speaker 3: country that doesn't have like a shitload of natural resources,

2219
01:50:13,400 --> 01:50:16,320
Speaker 3: one thing you can export is the benefits of your sovereignty.

2220
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:20,080
Speaker 3: To say, really rich people who who might want certain

2221
01:50:20,240 --> 01:50:21,240
Speaker 3: things that you can.

2222
01:50:21,160 --> 01:50:25,600
Speaker 2: Do as a country plan is coming to get So.

2223
01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:29,200
Speaker 3: There's a number of ways in which Naru has kind

2224
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,240
Speaker 3: of taken advantage of this to get by. One of

2225
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 3: them is that they've sort of sold access to their

2226
01:50:34,400 --> 01:50:37,960
Speaker 3: land to Australia to use, so that Australia has used

2227
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:41,879
Speaker 3: them for years as an offshore processing center for asylum seekers.

2228
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:45,080
Speaker 3: I think this stopped most recently in twenty nineteen, but

2229
01:50:45,120 --> 01:50:46,840
Speaker 3: there's been a couple of waves of this and it

2230
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:50,120
Speaker 3: was not a pleasant place right. Conditions were so brutal

2231
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:53,680
Speaker 3: in sort of the offshore processing center on Naaru from

2232
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:57,160
Speaker 3: twenty twelve to twenty nineteen that several residents carried out

2233
01:50:57,520 --> 01:51:01,240
Speaker 3: like deadly forms of protests, sowing their own lipshut or

2234
01:51:01,320 --> 01:51:04,320
Speaker 3: lighting themselves on fire as a protest of the conditions

2235
01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:09,479
Speaker 3: they were facing. Pretty ugly scene. In the late nineteen

2236
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:11,720
Speaker 3: nineties kind of prior to this period, Naru was the

2237
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:15,439
Speaker 3: chief money laundering location for the emerging Russian oligarch class.

2238
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:18,200
Speaker 3: They helped a lot of these oligarch types you've heard

2239
01:51:18,200 --> 01:51:21,080
Speaker 3: about in the context of Putin launder about seventy billion

2240
01:51:21,120 --> 01:51:23,799
Speaker 3: dollars in the ill gotten funds during the early stages

2241
01:51:23,800 --> 01:51:24,839
Speaker 3: of the Russian Federation.

2242
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:27,360
Speaker 2: I have a good bastard's cameo.

2243
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:31,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, Naru, Naru's Naro's adjacent to a whole

2244
01:51:31,160 --> 01:51:35,160
Speaker 3: lot of shitty people. Great, yeah, here, it's a lovely place.

2245
01:51:35,920 --> 01:51:38,720
Speaker 3: Naru was also designated a money laundering state by the

2246
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:41,639
Speaker 3: US Treasury in two thousand and two, which led to sanctions,

2247
01:51:41,640 --> 01:51:43,800
Speaker 3: which I think is probably why they moved to like

2248
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:46,920
Speaker 3: letting Australia offshore migrants there for a while. And since

2249
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:50,960
Speaker 3: Australia stopped doing that in twenty nineteen, Sam Bankman Freed

2250
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:53,720
Speaker 3: and his fellow effective altruists felt like they might have

2251
01:51:53,760 --> 01:51:56,320
Speaker 3: had an opportunity there, right, Like Naru's kind of looking

2252
01:51:56,360 --> 01:51:59,240
Speaker 3: for some new cash flow. They're looking for a sovereign

2253
01:51:59,320 --> 01:52:00,760
Speaker 3: nation to do some things.

2254
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:05,400
Speaker 2: For well, it's it's an opportunity to be effective.

2255
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:10,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, to be effectively altruistic towards yourself. Specifically, Sam

2256
01:52:10,520 --> 01:52:13,280
Speaker 3: and his brother Gabriel Bankman Freed is actually the guy

2257
01:52:13,439 --> 01:52:19,559
Speaker 3: sort of like organizing this attempted endeavor using ftx's charitable

2258
01:52:19,840 --> 01:52:22,920
Speaker 3: donation's arm and their goal was to purchase the entire

2259
01:52:23,040 --> 01:52:26,679
Speaker 3: island in order to construct what Gabe called a bunker

2260
01:52:26,800 --> 01:52:29,639
Speaker 3: shelter that would be used to quote ensure that most

2261
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:33,080
Speaker 3: effective altruists survive in the event that between fifty percent

2262
01:52:33,200 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 3: and ninety nine point ninety nine percent of the world

2263
01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:37,800
Speaker 3: population perishing a catastrophe.

2264
01:52:38,800 --> 01:52:42,040
Speaker 2: Jesus, And that's like a pretty common this. I feel

2265
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:44,679
Speaker 2: like the gabe of the situation is a very common

2266
01:52:44,920 --> 01:52:50,200
Speaker 2: character in batle, like just the devious brother. I mean,

2267
01:52:50,560 --> 01:52:52,719
Speaker 2: I hate the bastard most of all, but I really

2268
01:52:52,840 --> 01:52:55,640
Speaker 2: detest the devious brother as well. There's just it just

2269
01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:58,080
Speaker 2: weeks of insecurity. We get your own grift.

2270
01:52:57,920 --> 01:53:00,760
Speaker 3: Man, especially since they're framing it not look, you know,

2271
01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:02,400
Speaker 3: when you got like a guy like Peter teal right,

2272
01:53:02,439 --> 01:53:04,800
Speaker 3: and everybody knows Peter Teel's got like an evil, rich

2273
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:07,120
Speaker 3: guy bunker to wait out the end of the world

2274
01:53:07,160 --> 01:53:09,439
Speaker 3: if it happens, And like, fuck Peter Teal. But at

2275
01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:12,160
Speaker 3: least that's Peter Teel's not pretending I have a bunker

2276
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:14,920
Speaker 3: to like save the world by putting aside just the

2277
01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:16,680
Speaker 3: best people. He's like, no, I'm a giant piece of

2278
01:53:16,680 --> 01:53:19,400
Speaker 3: shit and I'm gonna save myself if things go wrong. Okay,

2279
01:53:19,760 --> 01:53:22,759
Speaker 3: Like fuck you, Peter Teal, But at least it's honest they're.

2280
01:53:22,600 --> 01:53:24,799
Speaker 2: Framing it as like a blood bunker for just boys.

2281
01:53:25,080 --> 01:53:29,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's me and my blood boys. Jab is like, no,

2282
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:31,920
Speaker 3: we have to in the event there's an apocalypse, we

2283
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:34,200
Speaker 3: have to save all the eas because they're the best

2284
01:53:34,320 --> 01:53:37,200
Speaker 3: people and that's what's best for the world. That will do.

2285
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,479
Speaker 3: We're utilitarians, right, The greatest good for the greatest number

2286
01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:42,519
Speaker 3: of people is to save all of the best people,

2287
01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 3: which is me and my friends, the other finance kids

2288
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:47,840
Speaker 3: who call themselves effective altruists so they don't have to

2289
01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:50,040
Speaker 3: feel bad for the fact that all they do is

2290
01:53:50,120 --> 01:53:53,040
Speaker 3: play the stock market like every other piece of shit anyway.

2291
01:53:53,320 --> 01:53:54,720
Speaker 2: So lucky that they all met each other.

2292
01:53:55,040 --> 01:53:58,760
Speaker 3: So lucky all the good people. I would love, I

2293
01:53:58,800 --> 01:54:01,920
Speaker 3: would love, honestly, Like, look, when the when the strike

2294
01:54:02,040 --> 01:54:04,400
Speaker 3: is over, somebody at a network, bring me on. I

2295
01:54:04,479 --> 01:54:08,520
Speaker 3: will write you a banger fucking script about an apocalypse

2296
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:11,040
Speaker 3: where just the EA guys are left in their bunker

2297
01:54:11,120 --> 01:54:12,040
Speaker 3: trying to figure out the.

2298
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:17,200
Speaker 2: Signy okay, another incentive to end the strike. That would

2299
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:18,040
Speaker 2: fucking rip.

2300
01:54:18,200 --> 01:54:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we could do. We could do quite a tale.

2301
01:54:20,479 --> 01:54:22,320
Speaker 3: We could have some fun with this one, Jamie.

2302
01:54:24,040 --> 01:54:26,839
Speaker 2: I don't I think that there would be some effective

2303
01:54:26,880 --> 01:54:30,600
Speaker 2: altruist like ridiculous enough to do cameos.

2304
01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:33,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we could get We could get fucking William

2305
01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:37,920
Speaker 3: mccaskell in there no problem, bring his Scottish ass on board. Yeah,

2306
01:54:38,280 --> 01:54:42,680
Speaker 3: vain little perverts. Oh and they're all they're all I'm

2307
01:54:42,720 --> 01:54:44,800
Speaker 3: gonna be honest, kind of stupid. So I bet we

2308
01:54:44,840 --> 01:54:48,240
Speaker 3: could trick him like you don't have journalistic ethics with

2309
01:54:48,320 --> 01:54:50,760
Speaker 3: an HBO show. Yeah, we could just say we're bringing

2310
01:54:50,800 --> 01:54:53,560
Speaker 3: them on for an interview. We could like film around them,

2311
01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:59,400
Speaker 3: liking what was that fucking movie with Steve Martin where

2312
01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:02,760
Speaker 3: they where they have to film the fake movie around Uh,

2313
01:55:02,960 --> 01:55:03,760
Speaker 3: what is it, Chris.

2314
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:10,080
Speaker 2: Rock Shit, Oh it's the it's oh see now you're.

2315
01:55:10,040 --> 01:55:12,000
Speaker 3: Now now now it's I know. It's driving me nuts.

2316
01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:13,040
Speaker 3: We have to figure this out.

2317
01:55:13,240 --> 01:55:15,440
Speaker 2: Uh, I rewatched it recently.

2318
01:55:15,960 --> 01:55:16,600
Speaker 3: It holds up.

2319
01:55:17,560 --> 01:55:20,080
Speaker 2: It does hold up. It's like one of the best movies.

2320
01:55:20,840 --> 01:55:24,520
Speaker 3: Bofinger fucking dope. We could do a bow finger with

2321
01:55:24,600 --> 01:55:27,080
Speaker 3: William mccaskell where he thinks he's getting interviewed for a

2322
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:30,360
Speaker 3: documentary and we're really making him the bad guy off

2323
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:35,440
Speaker 3: our HBO series, bringing Steve Martin to fuck it he's

2324
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:36,360
Speaker 3: still he still got it.

2325
01:55:37,160 --> 01:55:38,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got good politics.

2326
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 3: He'd be great.

2327
01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2328
01:55:41,560 --> 01:55:44,720
Speaker 3: Uh glad, glad we remembered it. Watch Bowfinger, guys. It

2329
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:45,640
Speaker 3: holds up truly.

2330
01:55:45,800 --> 01:55:48,240
Speaker 2: If you take anything away from today, it really does.

2331
01:55:48,360 --> 01:55:49,840
Speaker 2: I was shocked at how well it helped.

2332
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:55,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, startlingly good movie, pretty good like scientology joke. So

2333
01:55:56,280 --> 01:56:00,520
Speaker 3: Gabriel Bankman freed ran ftx's charitable donations wing, which included

2334
01:56:00,560 --> 01:56:03,000
Speaker 3: a ton of money for what many people have characterized

2335
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:06,720
Speaker 3: as political bribes. I'm not saying that he was bribing

2336
01:56:06,800 --> 01:56:08,720
Speaker 3: politicians for FTX. I'm saying that's what a lot of

2337
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:10,520
Speaker 3: people have characterized what he was doing as.

2338
01:56:11,120 --> 01:56:11,280
Speaker 1: Now.

2339
01:56:11,600 --> 01:56:13,560
Speaker 3: That much has been known for a while, but it

2340
01:56:13,680 --> 01:56:16,440
Speaker 3: was not until the current management of what remains of

2341
01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:20,240
Speaker 3: FTX sued Sam. Because again there's new management that's trying

2342
01:56:20,280 --> 01:56:22,280
Speaker 3: to recover as much money as possible, and they're throwing

2343
01:56:22,320 --> 01:56:24,760
Speaker 3: Sam under the bus because why wouldn't they. And that's

2344
01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:26,680
Speaker 3: how all this stuff got revealed because they have all

2345
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:29,960
Speaker 3: of ftx's internal communications, so they found a bunch of

2346
01:56:30,040 --> 01:56:33,360
Speaker 3: shit like that Sam was having Gabriel try to buy

2347
01:56:33,440 --> 01:56:37,040
Speaker 3: the island of Nauru. Now it is unclear how serious

2348
01:56:37,120 --> 01:56:39,960
Speaker 3: their attempt to buy this island was a representative of

2349
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:42,640
Speaker 3: the island's government has been like, no, no, no, we

2350
01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:45,200
Speaker 3: were never putting our island for sale. This was never

2351
01:56:45,280 --> 01:56:48,280
Speaker 3: a thing that was going to happen. And maybe that

2352
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:51,200
Speaker 3: is the case, maybe they were just being idiots fucking around.

2353
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:54,280
Speaker 3: But in a memo between Gabriel and an FTX officer,

2354
01:56:54,360 --> 01:56:57,800
Speaker 3: the discussion was centered around the idea of buying the island,

2355
01:56:57,880 --> 01:56:59,960
Speaker 3: of being in control of it as a sovereign country,

2356
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:01,760
Speaker 3: not just purchasing land.

2357
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:04,880
Speaker 2: So I mean, that's a lot of work for a bit.

2358
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:07,360
Speaker 2: Not that I put it past him, but I'm just like,

2359
01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:09,440
Speaker 2: it's not sounding like, yeah.

2360
01:57:09,720 --> 01:57:13,040
Speaker 3: No, I think I don't put it past It's possible

2361
01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:16,880
Speaker 3: that Naru whatever is telling whatever government officials telling the

2362
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:19,600
Speaker 3: truth they were never considering selling the island. But it's

2363
01:57:19,600 --> 01:57:22,520
Speaker 3: also possible that Gabe at all believed they could buy

2364
01:57:22,600 --> 01:57:24,040
Speaker 3: the island right right.

2365
01:57:24,240 --> 01:57:28,120
Speaker 2: They may in fact be that dumb yeah yeah, yeah.

2366
01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:32,080
Speaker 3: Now, there were discussions between these FDx guys about using

2367
01:57:32,160 --> 01:57:36,800
Speaker 3: Naru as a base for human genetic experimentation. You get

2368
01:57:36,840 --> 01:57:39,480
Speaker 3: the feeling that what their goal was to create modified

2369
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:43,640
Speaker 3: posthuman godlike bodies for their fellow effective altruists so that

2370
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:47,640
Speaker 3: they can live forever and dominate mankind after the collapse

2371
01:57:47,760 --> 01:57:50,360
Speaker 3: is undying immortals that just.

2372
01:57:50,520 --> 01:57:56,640
Speaker 2: Sent the ugliest photoshopped image like it was involuntary, how

2373
01:57:56,760 --> 01:58:03,400
Speaker 2: quickly the like no neck, huge chest photoshops super.

2374
01:58:03,200 --> 01:58:08,200
Speaker 3: So absolutely absolutely, Hey, yeah, it's a It sounds like

2375
01:58:08,280 --> 01:58:11,680
Speaker 3: a mix between uh, that one video game with the

2376
01:58:11,720 --> 01:58:16,120
Speaker 3: big robot dinosaurs and those sci fi books by that

2377
01:58:16,200 --> 01:58:18,440
Speaker 3: guy who wound up being real anti Muslim.

2378
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:22,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, it could be a lot of guys.

2379
01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:23,040
Speaker 2: I wonder which guy.

2380
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:27,400
Speaker 3: Oh it's I think uh Ilium and olympos Uk. I

2381
01:58:27,480 --> 01:58:29,640
Speaker 3: forget the name of the author, but the premise of

2382
01:58:29,720 --> 01:58:32,200
Speaker 3: the book is that like in the future, a bunch

2383
01:58:32,280 --> 01:58:34,960
Speaker 3: of rich guys turn themselves into gods and decide to

2384
01:58:35,080 --> 01:58:38,120
Speaker 3: like recreate the Trojan War with themself as the Greek gods,

2385
01:58:38,240 --> 01:58:41,520
Speaker 3: and they like resurrect a bunch of dead archaeologists to

2386
01:58:41,600 --> 01:58:44,200
Speaker 3: make sure that they get the details right. It's it's fun,

2387
01:58:44,320 --> 01:58:46,840
Speaker 3: it's it's it's quite a series, except for the weird

2388
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:52,040
Speaker 3: moments of bigotry. Oh that good stuff. Dan Simmons I

2389
01:58:52,080 --> 01:58:56,320
Speaker 3: think is the author anyway, So yeah, they're talking about

2390
01:58:56,440 --> 01:59:00,040
Speaker 3: we want to create a human genetic experimentation based and

2391
01:59:00,080 --> 01:59:02,320
Speaker 3: they're like, we want to figure out what the sensible

2392
01:59:02,440 --> 01:59:05,760
Speaker 3: regulations around human genetic enhancement are, but we also want

2393
01:59:05,800 --> 01:59:08,880
Speaker 3: to build a lab. And while they're talking about this,

2394
01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:12,640
Speaker 3: Gabriel ads cryptically, probably there are other things it's useful

2395
01:59:12,680 --> 01:59:15,160
Speaker 3: to do with a sovereign country. I don't know what

2396
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:19,520
Speaker 3: he means by that, but yeah, probably huh so that

2397
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:22,200
Speaker 3: could be as banal is just like money laundering, which

2398
01:59:22,280 --> 01:59:25,200
Speaker 3: Nauru obviously is quite a history of, or issuing things

2399
01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:27,760
Speaker 3: like passports. But given the fact that all these dummies

2400
01:59:27,800 --> 01:59:30,480
Speaker 3: are permanently poisoned by a mixture of sci fi fandoms

2401
01:59:30,520 --> 01:59:32,720
Speaker 3: and weird futurist cults, I think it's safe to say

2402
01:59:32,760 --> 01:59:34,440
Speaker 3: we all dodged a bullet by the fact that they

2403
01:59:34,520 --> 01:59:38,800
Speaker 3: never got too far in this scheme. Now, my favorite

2404
01:59:38,800 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 3: thing about this whole idea is how dumb it is

2405
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:44,080
Speaker 3: on its face. There are some countries that could act

2406
01:59:44,160 --> 01:59:46,960
Speaker 3: as really good apocalypse shelters for the super rich, right

2407
01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:49,000
Speaker 3: Switzerland is one. A lot of rich people have their

2408
01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:53,160
Speaker 3: apocalypse shelters in Switzerland. New Zealand is another. But the

2409
01:59:53,280 --> 01:59:55,520
Speaker 3: problem for that is that, like Switzerland and New Zealand

2410
01:59:55,680 --> 01:59:58,720
Speaker 3: are both functional states. Obviously, if you're a billionaire there,

2411
01:59:58,760 --> 02:00:00,800
Speaker 3: you can have some outsized fluence, but you're not just

2412
02:00:00,880 --> 02:00:03,440
Speaker 3: going to run everything because there's other interests and like

2413
02:00:03,560 --> 02:00:06,880
Speaker 3: a functional system of government in place in all of

2414
02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:09,760
Speaker 3: those places. I think Sam and them were hoping that

2415
02:00:09,880 --> 02:00:13,040
Speaker 3: since Nauru's small enough, they could just utterly dominate the government,

2416
02:00:13,480 --> 02:00:16,080
Speaker 3: but they ignored the fact that it's like one of

2417
02:00:16,160 --> 02:00:19,320
Speaker 3: the worst places imaginable to have as an apocalypse shelter.

2418
02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:22,520
Speaker 3: For one thing, the island does not grow much food,

2419
02:00:22,600 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 3: which means it has to important ninety percent of what

2420
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:27,480
Speaker 3: it needs to sustain its very small population.

2421
02:00:28,160 --> 02:00:31,760
Speaker 2: It has all good. We have so much money, it's okay.

2422
02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:35,800
Speaker 3: We'll just keep importing it. Yeah. It also has very

2423
02:00:35,840 --> 02:00:38,320
Speaker 3: little fresh water, and most of its infrastructure is on

2424
02:00:38,440 --> 02:00:41,720
Speaker 3: the coast and vulnerable to both rising sea levels and hurricanes.

2425
02:00:42,080 --> 02:00:44,240
Speaker 3: It is very close to the bottom of places that

2426
02:00:44,280 --> 02:00:48,480
Speaker 3: you would want to have as a shelter. So very funny.

2427
02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:53,200
Speaker 3: All these people are silly, now, Jamie. The main reason

2428
02:00:53,840 --> 02:00:56,640
Speaker 3: current FTX is revealing all this is that they are

2429
02:00:56,800 --> 02:01:00,400
Speaker 3: suing the old management of the country, a company i e. Sam,

2430
02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:03,240
Speaker 3: to try and reclaim a billion or so dollars, They

2431
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:06,920
Speaker 3: argue was funneled illegally into nonsense like this and into

2432
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:09,200
Speaker 3: the pockets of bankman Freed and his lieutenants in the

2433
02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:13,600
Speaker 3: months before FTXX collapsed due to insolvency. The lawsuit against

2434
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:16,800
Speaker 3: Sam also includes some more confounding lines described in this

2435
02:01:16,920 --> 02:01:19,440
Speaker 3: paragraph from an article on the suit by crypto news

2436
02:01:19,520 --> 02:01:22,960
Speaker 3: site decrypt. The lawsuit further says that the projects run

2437
02:01:23,040 --> 02:01:27,000
Speaker 3: by the FTX Foundation were frequently misguided and sometimes dystopian.

2438
02:01:27,440 --> 02:01:30,320
Speaker 3: These included a three hundred dollars one thousand dollars grant

2439
02:01:30,400 --> 02:01:32,440
Speaker 3: to an individual to write a book about how to

2440
02:01:32,520 --> 02:01:35,840
Speaker 3: figure out what humans utility function are, as well as

2441
02:01:35,920 --> 02:01:38,280
Speaker 3: a four hundred thousand dollars grant to an entity that

2442
02:01:38,360 --> 02:01:42,920
Speaker 3: posted YouTube videos related to rationalist and effective altruism material,

2443
02:01:43,040 --> 02:01:47,840
Speaker 3: including videos on grabby aliens. Now, does that all seem

2444
02:01:47,920 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 3: like nonsense to you, Jamie?

2445
02:01:50,600 --> 02:01:52,960
Speaker 2: I don't know, Robert. Let's hear them out about the

2446
02:01:53,200 --> 02:01:54,080
Speaker 2: grabby a bi.

2447
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:57,560
Speaker 3: Don't worry, I'm going to explain all of this horseshit

2448
02:01:57,720 --> 02:01:57,920
Speaker 3: to you.

2449
02:01:58,360 --> 02:02:03,440
Speaker 2: Uh my god, Yeah, kind of rick and morty ass nonsense.

2450
02:02:03,600 --> 02:02:06,640
Speaker 3: It is some rick and morty ass nonsense. It's much

2451
02:02:06,720 --> 02:02:08,960
Speaker 3: dumber than anything in Rick and Morty because at least

2452
02:02:09,040 --> 02:02:11,800
Speaker 3: some of the people there understand story structure.

2453
02:02:12,440 --> 02:02:15,240
Speaker 2: Unlike them at please understand that it's a joke, that

2454
02:02:15,360 --> 02:02:15,880
Speaker 2: it's a bit.

2455
02:02:16,080 --> 02:02:19,760
Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah, so if you aren't terminally adhered to one

2456
02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:22,600
Speaker 3: of the stupidest subcultures in the broader tech sphere, that

2457
02:02:22,760 --> 02:02:25,240
Speaker 3: probably does seem like nonsense, and it is. But let's

2458
02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:28,240
Speaker 3: start with the bit about paying someone three hundred grand

2459
02:02:28,440 --> 02:02:31,920
Speaker 3: to write about what a human's utility function is. Now, yes,

2460
02:02:32,120 --> 02:02:36,120
Speaker 3: what is a utility function? Great question? In economics, a

2461
02:02:36,320 --> 02:02:40,000
Speaker 3: utility function is the measure of welfare or satisfaction of

2462
02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:42,960
Speaker 3: a consumer as a function of the consumption of real

2463
02:02:43,080 --> 02:02:45,600
Speaker 3: goods like food. In simple terms, it's a way of

2464
02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:49,000
Speaker 3: describing the satisfaction or other benefits gained by consuming a

2465
02:02:49,080 --> 02:02:53,240
Speaker 3: specific resource. This is important to rational choice theory, which

2466
02:02:53,280 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 3: is a theory that states that individuals use rational calculations

2467
02:02:56,560 --> 02:02:59,760
Speaker 3: to make rational choices to achieve outcomes aligned with their

2468
02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:03,720
Speaker 3: own objectives. Now, most people who aren't economists think that

2469
02:03:03,880 --> 02:03:06,600
Speaker 3: talking about the economy this way is silly, because people

2470
02:03:06,640 --> 02:03:09,240
Speaker 3: are not in fact rational actors, and in fact, we

2471
02:03:09,400 --> 02:03:12,920
Speaker 3: make shitty decisions all the time, guided by misinformation or

2472
02:03:13,000 --> 02:03:16,120
Speaker 3: pressure that causes us to inaccurately interpret the potential value

2473
02:03:16,160 --> 02:03:19,640
Speaker 3: of something like a college education versus the cost of say,

2474
02:03:19,720 --> 02:03:20,480
Speaker 3: student loans.

2475
02:03:20,680 --> 02:03:24,880
Speaker 2: Right, one could argue that Sam Bateman, Freed and co.

2476
02:03:25,160 --> 02:03:28,800
Speaker 2: Are a great example of a wonderful example of the irrationality.

2477
02:03:29,920 --> 02:03:33,720
Speaker 3: But that's economics. This is not an economics podcast. I'm

2478
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:36,000
Speaker 3: not an economist. And the way that Bankman, Freed and

2479
02:03:36,120 --> 02:03:39,200
Speaker 3: his fellow Eas talk about utility functions is not the

2480
02:03:39,320 --> 02:03:42,000
Speaker 3: same as how economists talk about it. Right, So when

2481
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:44,040
Speaker 3: economists are talking about this, it's part of how to

2482
02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:47,760
Speaker 3: kind of figure out why people might make rational choices

2483
02:03:47,800 --> 02:03:50,680
Speaker 3: by understanding like the value of sort of the ranked

2484
02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:53,600
Speaker 3: like preference they give to certain things that they might

2485
02:03:53,640 --> 02:03:57,520
Speaker 3: expend resources on. Broadly speaking, when Bankman, Freed and Eas

2486
02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:01,440
Speaker 3: talk about utility functions, what they mean is something even

2487
02:04:01,520 --> 02:04:04,000
Speaker 3: more abstract. And I'm going to quote from a summary

2488
02:04:04,080 --> 02:04:06,680
Speaker 3: from a write up on a effective altruism dot org,

2489
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:09,440
Speaker 3: a website you should avoid at all costs. Quote.

2490
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:11,720
Speaker 2: I'm really not looking forward to finding out how this

2491
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:14,680
Speaker 2: somehow relates to the grabby aliens.

2492
02:04:15,000 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, in a very dumb way Jamie quote okay,

2493
02:04:19,120 --> 02:04:23,200
Speaker 5: good eas and rationalists love dropping the term in every conversation.

2494
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:26,520
Speaker 3: Using the term utility function can be immensely helpful when

2495
02:04:26,560 --> 02:04:29,600
Speaker 3: aiming to maximize positive impact or do the most good.

2496
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:32,960
Speaker 3: The concept of a utility function provides a systematic way

2497
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:36,240
Speaker 3: to quantify and compare the potential benefits of different actions,

2498
02:04:36,520 --> 02:04:39,560
Speaker 3: thus helping to guide decision making toward the most effective outcomes.

2499
02:04:39,800 --> 02:04:43,839
Speaker 3: By representing values, goals, or beneficial outcomes numerically, utility functions

2500
02:04:43,880 --> 02:04:47,560
Speaker 3: allow for a structured comparison and prioritization of actions. If,

2501
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:50,720
Speaker 3: for example, your goal is to alleviate global suffering, you

2502
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:53,680
Speaker 3: could assign values to different charitable actions based on their

2503
02:04:53,800 --> 02:04:57,640
Speaker 3: estimated impact, thus creating utility function. This function can then

2504
02:04:57,680 --> 02:05:00,000
Speaker 3: guide you to allocate your resources like time or mone

2505
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:03,560
Speaker 3: money where they will generate the greatest utility or good. Now,

2506
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:06,720
Speaker 3: that just seems like you're saying you should try to

2507
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:09,480
Speaker 3: figure out how your money's gonna be spent best right

2508
02:05:09,600 --> 02:05:12,280
Speaker 3: before you spend it. But that's not actually what they're saying.

2509
02:05:12,360 --> 02:05:14,680
Speaker 3: What they are doing here is they are they are

2510
02:05:14,760 --> 02:05:17,200
Speaker 3: set like a utility function. This context is a way

2511
02:05:17,240 --> 02:05:19,880
Speaker 3: of assigning a number that you have made up. There

2512
02:05:19,960 --> 02:05:22,760
Speaker 3: is no objective value to this number. There's no rigor

2513
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:26,720
Speaker 3: to this. You are making up a number to determine

2514
02:05:26,800 --> 02:05:30,120
Speaker 3: the value of spending your money in certain ways. And

2515
02:05:30,240 --> 02:05:32,400
Speaker 3: you are doing this so that whatever it is you

2516
02:05:32,480 --> 02:05:35,840
Speaker 3: want to do with your money, you can justify numerically

2517
02:05:36,040 --> 02:05:38,920
Speaker 3: as the scientifically best way to spend your money. So

2518
02:05:39,320 --> 02:05:42,440
Speaker 3: I see you can you can argue in this way

2519
02:05:42,560 --> 02:05:45,280
Speaker 3: by assigning these values whenever wonky way you want. Now,

2520
02:05:45,400 --> 02:05:48,560
Speaker 3: me paying taxes to fund roads and a healthcare system

2521
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:51,120
Speaker 3: is a shitty use of my money because it doesn't

2522
02:05:51,200 --> 02:05:53,600
Speaker 3: optimize this thing that I consider to be of higher

2523
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:55,840
Speaker 3: long term value. And the thing that's a higher long

2524
02:05:55,920 --> 02:05:59,200
Speaker 3: term value to me is spending money on fucking space

2525
02:05:59,280 --> 02:06:01,480
Speaker 3: travel research so that I can be a demi god

2526
02:06:01,560 --> 02:06:04,200
Speaker 3: on Mars. Right, that's best for human beings in the

2527
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:07,240
Speaker 3: long term. So in utilitarian speak, you know, the greatest

2528
02:06:07,280 --> 02:06:09,000
Speaker 3: good for the greatest number of people is that's getting

2529
02:06:09,040 --> 02:06:11,560
Speaker 3: to Mars as opposed to feeding starving people. Right now,

2530
02:06:11,640 --> 02:06:13,960
Speaker 3: you know the utility function of getting to Mars is

2531
02:06:14,080 --> 02:06:15,720
Speaker 3: much higher, So that's where our money ought to go.

2532
02:06:16,440 --> 02:06:18,640
Speaker 2: Well, it's all, yeah, it just like comes down to

2533
02:06:18,840 --> 02:06:22,720
Speaker 2: like the great The greatest good is me hah, smiling

2534
02:06:22,800 --> 02:06:23,280
Speaker 2: a little bit.

2535
02:06:23,480 --> 02:06:28,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. There's literally some writing on that in that vein.

2536
02:06:28,760 --> 02:06:31,360
Speaker 3: So it is through math like this that EAS are

2537
02:06:31,400 --> 02:06:33,280
Speaker 3: able to look at at a world where millions face

2538
02:06:33,400 --> 02:06:35,760
Speaker 3: death by famine or disease or rising sea levels and

2539
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:38,040
Speaker 3: say the best way to help the planet is for

2540
02:06:38,200 --> 02:06:41,000
Speaker 3: us to become finance Bros. And then spend our money

2541
02:06:41,080 --> 02:06:44,920
Speaker 3: investing in AI companies or whatever. The fundamental selfishness of

2542
02:06:44,960 --> 02:06:46,920
Speaker 3: this whole community is made clear when you read the

2543
02:06:47,080 --> 02:06:49,960
Speaker 3: essays these people write on their websites, like less Wrong,

2544
02:06:50,400 --> 02:06:55,040
Speaker 3: a blog founded by self declared AIX Yeah, Eliza Yidkowski.

2545
02:06:55,120 --> 02:06:58,680
Speaker 3: Yidkowski is a rationalist, which is a related subculture to

2546
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:01,400
Speaker 3: the EAS. There's a lot of lead over Sam and

2547
02:07:01,480 --> 02:07:04,960
Speaker 3: a lot of his people were rationalists or rationalists adjacent

2548
02:07:05,560 --> 02:07:09,040
Speaker 3: and Yeah. To give you an idea of how these

2549
02:07:09,080 --> 02:07:11,360
Speaker 3: people talk about utility functions, I'm going to read an

2550
02:07:11,440 --> 02:07:14,400
Speaker 3: excerpt from an article on this website titled your utility

2551
02:07:14,480 --> 02:07:18,720
Speaker 3: function is your utility Function? By David Udell. I've been

2552
02:07:18,760 --> 02:07:21,760
Speaker 3: thinking a lot lately about exactly how altruistic I am.

2553
02:07:21,920 --> 02:07:23,760
Speaker 3: The truth is that I'm not sure I care a

2554
02:07:23,800 --> 02:07:26,120
Speaker 3: lot about not dying, and about my girlfriend and family

2555
02:07:26,200 --> 02:07:28,800
Speaker 3: and friends not dying, and about all of humanity not dying,

2556
02:07:29,040 --> 02:07:31,280
Speaker 3: and about all life on this planet not dying too.

2557
02:07:31,680 --> 02:07:33,960
Speaker 3: And I care about the glorious transhium in future and

2558
02:07:34,040 --> 02:07:36,240
Speaker 3: all that and the ten to the fiftieth power or

2559
02:07:36,280 --> 02:07:39,920
Speaker 3: whatever possible good future lives hanging in the balance. And

2560
02:07:40,000 --> 02:07:42,280
Speaker 3: I care about some of these things disproportionately to their

2561
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:44,960
Speaker 3: apparent moral magnitude. But what I care about is what

2562
02:07:45,160 --> 02:07:47,720
Speaker 3: I care about. Rationality is the art of getting more

2563
02:07:47,760 --> 02:07:50,720
Speaker 3: of what you want, whatever that is, of systematized winning

2564
02:07:50,840 --> 02:07:53,200
Speaker 3: by your own lights. You will totally fail in that

2565
02:07:53,360 --> 02:07:55,560
Speaker 3: art if you bulldoze your values in a desperate effort

2566
02:07:55,600 --> 02:07:57,480
Speaker 3: to fit in or to be a good person, or

2567
02:07:57,560 --> 02:08:00,280
Speaker 3: to in the way you're a model of society seems

2568
02:08:00,320 --> 02:08:02,800
Speaker 3: to ask you to. So you see what he's saying,

2569
02:08:02,840 --> 02:08:05,080
Speaker 3: if you read between the lines there, what the most

2570
02:08:05,200 --> 02:08:07,920
Speaker 3: rational thing for me to do is whatever makes me feel.

2571
02:08:07,680 --> 02:08:09,960
Speaker 2: Best, whatever gives me a little smile.

2572
02:08:10,200 --> 02:08:13,360
Speaker 3: Don't let people shame you for spending your resources, you know,

2573
02:08:13,680 --> 02:08:17,720
Speaker 3: entirely on yourself and your own whims like you're actually

2574
02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:18,200
Speaker 3: a hero.

2575
02:08:18,440 --> 02:08:21,960
Speaker 2: If you do that is it is so fascinating to

2576
02:08:22,000 --> 02:08:25,080
Speaker 2: me to watch, like, I don't know, it seems like

2577
02:08:25,160 --> 02:08:29,200
Speaker 2: this like self conscious reflex where they feel the need

2578
02:08:29,440 --> 02:08:37,960
Speaker 2: to define rational by something that is more closely aligned

2579
02:08:38,000 --> 02:08:41,440
Speaker 2: with reality and then immediately be like, but what that

2580
02:08:41,640 --> 02:08:44,400
Speaker 2: actually means is yeah, that's odds.

2581
02:08:45,400 --> 02:08:47,760
Speaker 3: The core of it is always being able to say that, like, well,

2582
02:08:48,000 --> 02:08:50,440
Speaker 3: if you suggest the number one, I have a responsibility

2583
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:53,200
Speaker 3: to other people, and that that responsibility is to some

2584
02:08:53,360 --> 02:08:55,240
Speaker 3: extent out of my hands, which is what we all

2585
02:08:55,320 --> 02:08:58,640
Speaker 3: say when we're in a society. Right, I don't have kids.

2586
02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:01,200
Speaker 3: I don't have a choice not to spend some of

2587
02:09:01,320 --> 02:09:04,320
Speaker 3: the significant amount of money I pay in taxes educating

2588
02:09:04,400 --> 02:09:07,640
Speaker 3: other people's kids. Now, I'm not a complete piece of shit,

2589
02:09:07,760 --> 02:09:11,160
Speaker 3: so I'm fine with that because, like I've I've done

2590
02:09:11,320 --> 02:09:14,640
Speaker 3: very well for myself, and kids need educations. That's just

2591
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:17,920
Speaker 3: a nice way for the world to work. But these

2592
02:09:18,040 --> 02:09:20,360
Speaker 3: people are more of the feeling that, like, no, I

2593
02:09:20,480 --> 02:09:24,160
Speaker 3: should do whatever is possible to avoid paying for, you know,

2594
02:09:24,280 --> 02:09:26,560
Speaker 3: a public school system. And in fact, I'm often going

2595
02:09:26,600 --> 02:09:29,280
Speaker 3: to advocate for some sort of like weird voucher based

2596
02:09:29,360 --> 02:09:33,320
Speaker 3: system that allows me to not fund public schools because

2597
02:09:33,320 --> 02:09:35,320
Speaker 3: the greatest good for the greatest number of peoples, for

2598
02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:38,040
Speaker 3: me to ensure that like me and my rich kid

2599
02:09:38,160 --> 02:09:40,960
Speaker 3: friends all get to send our kids to special schools

2600
02:09:41,040 --> 02:09:44,200
Speaker 3: where like what you know, fuck anybody else, Like I

2601
02:09:44,240 --> 02:09:47,120
Speaker 3: don't have any other responsibility for the broader population. All

2602
02:09:47,160 --> 02:09:51,080
Speaker 3: that actually matters is like me maximizing you know, my

2603
02:09:51,240 --> 02:09:54,080
Speaker 3: own personal happiness. But I still want to feel like

2604
02:09:54,440 --> 02:09:56,480
Speaker 3: like I'm a hero for doing it. Right, if I

2605
02:09:56,600 --> 02:09:59,680
Speaker 3: avoid paying taxes in order to like spend all of

2606
02:09:59,720 --> 02:10:02,400
Speaker 3: my mind money investing in open AI so that I

2607
02:10:02,480 --> 02:10:04,960
Speaker 3: can like take people's jobs away, like I want to

2608
02:10:05,000 --> 02:10:07,640
Speaker 3: feel like a hero for doing that, because what I'm

2609
02:10:07,720 --> 02:10:09,840
Speaker 3: arguing is that it's best for you know, the people

2610
02:10:09,920 --> 02:10:11,600
Speaker 3: with five hundred years from now, and there's going to

2611
02:10:11,640 --> 02:10:13,360
Speaker 3: be more of them there than there are today. So

2612
02:10:13,480 --> 02:10:15,800
Speaker 3: I'm a hero for like getting rich off of this

2613
02:10:15,960 --> 02:10:16,720
Speaker 3: company today.

2614
02:10:17,120 --> 02:10:19,920
Speaker 2: You know, yes, well, because there's first of all, there's

2615
02:10:20,200 --> 02:10:22,720
Speaker 2: definitely going to be people in five hundred.

2616
02:10:22,480 --> 02:10:27,040
Speaker 3: Years, sure, for sure, definitely, Garrett, if these eas get

2617
02:10:27,080 --> 02:10:28,560
Speaker 3: their way, sure yeah.

2618
02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:31,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. If we are doing the most good there,

2619
02:10:32,320 --> 02:10:35,160
Speaker 2: that's so fucking exhausting. I mean, it does, like your

2620
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:39,200
Speaker 2: Peter Teel example, not that you know, doing evil is

2621
02:10:39,360 --> 02:10:42,200
Speaker 2: good in any capacity, But the most exhausting kind of

2622
02:10:42,320 --> 02:10:45,800
Speaker 2: evil is the one that also insists on you validating

2623
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:47,440
Speaker 2: that it's not actually.

2624
02:10:47,280 --> 02:10:49,200
Speaker 3: Evil all that time, that it deserves to.

2625
02:10:49,280 --> 02:10:52,480
Speaker 2: Shut the fuck up and ruin my life or don't.

2626
02:10:53,000 --> 02:10:54,840
Speaker 3: It's the same thing with a lot of these fucking

2627
02:10:54,960 --> 02:10:57,520
Speaker 3: right wing media grifters, where like it's not enough for

2628
02:10:57,600 --> 02:11:00,120
Speaker 3: them to be rich, it's not enough for them to

2629
02:11:00,280 --> 02:11:04,000
Speaker 3: like get their way politically. They feel like they have

2630
02:11:04,320 --> 02:11:08,760
Speaker 3: like an ethical their owde, like being cool and respected,

2631
02:11:09,200 --> 02:11:10,840
Speaker 3: And it's the same thing to like, these people are

2632
02:11:10,840 --> 02:11:14,480
Speaker 3: all finance schools. They are all like actively fighting to

2633
02:11:14,640 --> 02:11:18,000
Speaker 3: avoid paying taxes and to be able to concentrate ever

2634
02:11:18,120 --> 02:11:20,760
Speaker 3: more power in an ever smaller number of people, to

2635
02:11:20,880 --> 02:11:24,240
Speaker 3: destroy the lives of you know, artists and people who

2636
02:11:24,360 --> 02:11:27,240
Speaker 3: are like working folks in order to like make more

2637
02:11:27,280 --> 02:11:30,120
Speaker 3: short term profits. This is all what they actually care

2638
02:11:30,160 --> 02:11:34,240
Speaker 3: about personally, but they want to feel like Gandhi while

2639
02:11:34,280 --> 02:11:37,960
Speaker 3: they do it right, because what they're doing is guaranteeing.

2640
02:11:38,080 --> 02:11:40,320
Speaker 3: What they'll argue Jamie is that like, well, you know

2641
02:11:40,960 --> 02:11:43,080
Speaker 3: this may hurt this company, you know, me getting involved

2642
02:11:43,080 --> 02:11:44,560
Speaker 3: in this company. Sure, we may destroy a lot of

2643
02:11:44,640 --> 02:11:46,960
Speaker 3: jobs in the short term, but by doing so, we'll

2644
02:11:46,960 --> 02:11:48,880
Speaker 3: be able to make sure that the AI we build

2645
02:11:48,920 --> 02:11:52,360
Speaker 3: that eventually becomes our god is one that cares about

2646
02:11:52,360 --> 02:11:54,400
Speaker 3: the future of humanity, and that's better for the most

2647
02:11:54,400 --> 02:11:55,320
Speaker 3: people in the long run.

2648
02:11:56,040 --> 02:12:00,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and history should remember me as the greatest man

2649
02:12:00,320 --> 02:12:02,280
Speaker 2: to ever live. And people will you know, that'll be

2650
02:12:02,360 --> 02:12:06,200
Speaker 2: on television someday when my computer is writing every television show.

2651
02:12:06,280 --> 02:12:10,480
Speaker 3: Fucking hate these people. So yeah, it's it's cool stuff.

2652
02:12:10,600 --> 02:12:14,520
Speaker 3: And I think the fundamental selfishness of these people, because

2653
02:12:14,560 --> 02:12:17,920
Speaker 3: all that effective altruism and rationalism are really about is

2654
02:12:18,040 --> 02:12:21,400
Speaker 3: by is creating a made up system of numbers to

2655
02:12:21,760 --> 02:12:26,640
Speaker 3: justify you pursuing your own benefit as like science right,

2656
02:12:26,760 --> 02:12:29,720
Speaker 3: as like scientifically rational. This is really.

2657
02:12:29,760 --> 02:12:32,240
Speaker 2: It's not as if that doesn't, you know, like math

2658
02:12:32,360 --> 02:12:36,120
Speaker 2: problems to serve a very small group self interest. It's

2659
02:12:36,120 --> 02:12:41,360
Speaker 2: not as if that doesn't exist outside of this circle.

2660
02:12:41,560 --> 02:12:47,360
Speaker 2: But it's just like bizarre, how uniquely like they lack

2661
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:51,760
Speaker 2: any sort of self awareness or I don't know, it's

2662
02:12:51,840 --> 02:12:54,280
Speaker 2: just they're so fucking annoying, is what I'm trying to say.

2663
02:12:54,520 --> 02:12:57,600
Speaker 3: That's very true, Jamie. And yes, this is all really

2664
02:12:57,680 --> 02:13:00,440
Speaker 3: clear when you look at how the movement. The EA

2665
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:03,440
Speaker 3: movement treated Sam Bankman freed before and after his fall

2666
02:13:03,480 --> 02:13:06,440
Speaker 3: from grace. If Effective Altruism can be said to have

2667
02:13:06,560 --> 02:13:09,040
Speaker 3: a pope, and it can, because all of these Silicon

2668
02:13:09,160 --> 02:13:13,280
Speaker 3: Valley philosophical movements are just Kirkland Brandt Catholicism. That pope

2669
02:13:13,400 --> 02:13:17,440
Speaker 3: is Will mccaskell, an Oxford moral philosopher and co founder

2670
02:13:17,480 --> 02:13:20,640
Speaker 3: for the Center for Effective Altruism. When FTX collapsed and

2671
02:13:20,760 --> 02:13:22,720
Speaker 3: Sam got arrested, he was quick to put out a

2672
02:13:22,760 --> 02:13:25,480
Speaker 3: statement of outrage. I don't know which emotion is stronger,

2673
02:13:25,600 --> 02:13:28,040
Speaker 3: my other rage at Sam and others for causing such

2674
02:13:28,080 --> 02:13:30,640
Speaker 3: harm to so many people, or my sadness and self

2675
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:34,640
Speaker 3: hatred for falling for this deception. Now. The only reason

2676
02:13:34,760 --> 02:13:37,520
Speaker 3: I would hesitate to call this horseshit, Jamie, is that horseship,

2677
02:13:37,560 --> 02:13:41,040
Speaker 3: by virtue of being inanimate waste, possesses a fundamental honesty

2678
02:13:41,120 --> 02:13:42,680
Speaker 3: that mcaskell is incapable of.

2679
02:13:44,280 --> 02:13:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck yeah, Robert, that's the bitchiest thing I've heard

2680
02:13:47,160 --> 02:13:48,160
Speaker 2: you say in a while.

2681
02:13:48,280 --> 02:13:52,080
Speaker 3: That's ACU. Thank you. He and SBF met back at

2682
02:13:52,280 --> 02:13:55,800
Speaker 3: MIT when Sam was an undergrad. Mcaskell convinced him that

2683
02:13:55,840 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 3: he could maximize his impact in humanitarian causes by earning

2684
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:02,120
Speaker 3: to get, you know, making as much money as possible

2685
02:14:02,320 --> 02:14:04,560
Speaker 3: so that he can give it away in a way

2686
02:14:04,640 --> 02:14:07,760
Speaker 3: that presumably will help the world. Now, when Sam ultimately

2687
02:14:07,840 --> 02:14:11,040
Speaker 3: launched Alimeter Research, it was an EA project from the start,

2688
02:14:11,400 --> 02:14:15,120
Speaker 3: staffed by Sam's friends in the community. One software engineer

2689
02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:17,480
Speaker 3: told Time almost everyone who came on in those early

2690
02:14:17,600 --> 02:14:20,200
Speaker 3: days was an EA. They were there for EA reasons,

2691
02:14:20,440 --> 02:14:23,960
Speaker 3: says Naya Buscal, a former software engineer at Alameda. That

2692
02:14:24,120 --> 02:14:26,400
Speaker 3: was the pitch we gave people, this is an EA thing.

2693
02:14:27,280 --> 02:14:30,560
Speaker 2: I know, I once again thinking about sports video games,

2694
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:33,520
Speaker 2: and I know it's not sports video games it is.

2695
02:14:33,640 --> 02:14:35,560
Speaker 3: It is basically a sports video game.

2696
02:14:35,720 --> 02:14:40,400
Speaker 2: I just had the flashback to the Yeah interview you did.

2697
02:14:41,440 --> 02:14:45,040
Speaker 2: I was thinking, Okay, it's true, it's true.

2698
02:14:45,360 --> 02:14:48,160
Speaker 3: In the early days, Sam's pitch was that fifty percent

2699
02:14:48,280 --> 02:14:50,960
Speaker 3: of the company profits would be donated to EA causes,

2700
02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:53,720
Speaker 3: and the initial round of investing that got the company

2701
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:57,560
Speaker 3: off the ground was funded entirely by rich EA types. Publicly,

2702
02:14:57,720 --> 02:15:00,800
Speaker 3: mccaskell asked about talked about Sam like he was the

2703
02:15:00,880 --> 02:15:04,880
Speaker 3: EA messiah, probably because ftx's Future Fund provided a huge

2704
02:15:04,920 --> 02:15:07,840
Speaker 3: amount of support for his movement, and just nine months

2705
02:15:07,880 --> 02:15:11,040
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two, the Future Fund, run by Nick Bexted,

2706
02:15:11,160 --> 02:15:15,120
Speaker 3: a moral philosopher who used FTX money to support various causes,

2707
02:15:15,400 --> 02:15:17,600
Speaker 3: gave more than one hundred and sixty million dollars in

2708
02:15:17,680 --> 02:15:22,040
Speaker 3: other people's money funneled through FTX two effective altruism, including

2709
02:15:22,120 --> 02:15:25,080
Speaker 3: thirty three million dollars to organizations that mccaskell had a

2710
02:15:25,160 --> 02:15:29,800
Speaker 3: direct interest in. So that's why mccaskell spoke so positively

2711
02:15:29,880 --> 02:15:32,360
Speaker 3: about Sam, which is made even more fucked up when

2712
02:15:32,400 --> 02:15:35,240
Speaker 3: you realize that, like other people in the EA movement,

2713
02:15:35,320 --> 02:15:39,160
Speaker 3: had started warning mccaskell about Sam Bankman Freed and about

2714
02:15:39,200 --> 02:15:41,280
Speaker 3: him being a con man as early as twenty eighteen.

2715
02:15:42,040 --> 02:15:43,840
Speaker 3: And I'm going to quote again from Time this is

2716
02:15:43,840 --> 02:15:47,440
Speaker 3: about from the very start of Alimeter research. Within months,

2717
02:15:47,600 --> 02:15:49,840
Speaker 3: the good karma of the venture dissipated in a series

2718
02:15:49,880 --> 02:15:52,280
Speaker 3: of internal clashes, many details of which have not been

2719
02:15:52,320 --> 02:15:55,480
Speaker 3: previously reported. Some of the issues were personal. Bankman Freed

2720
02:15:55,560 --> 02:15:59,160
Speaker 3: could be dictatorial, according to one former colleague. Three former

2721
02:15:59,160 --> 02:16:02,720
Speaker 3: Alimeda employe, he's told Time he had inappropriate romantic relationships

2722
02:16:02,760 --> 02:16:06,280
Speaker 3: with his subordinates. Early Alameda executives also believed he had

2723
02:16:06,320 --> 02:16:08,760
Speaker 3: reneged on an equity arrangement that would have left Bankman

2724
02:16:08,800 --> 02:16:11,400
Speaker 3: Freed with forty percent control of the firm, according to

2725
02:16:11,480 --> 02:16:14,840
Speaker 3: a document reviewed by Time. Instead, according to two people

2726
02:16:14,880 --> 02:16:17,520
Speaker 3: with knowledge of the situation, he had registered himself as

2727
02:16:17,640 --> 02:16:22,560
Speaker 3: sole owner of Alameda. So basically, Sam has unethically taken

2728
02:16:22,680 --> 02:16:24,800
Speaker 3: control of the firm and all of the money invested

2729
02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:26,880
Speaker 3: in it, and he is like fucking his subordinates.

2730
02:16:27,520 --> 02:16:30,200
Speaker 2: It was again, he's also a sex pest. He's also

2731
02:16:30,280 --> 02:16:33,560
Speaker 2: a sex surprising that I've ever heard in my entire life.

2732
02:16:33,720 --> 02:16:38,320
Speaker 3: Taking money from people's what are effectively bank accounts and FTX,

2733
02:16:38,360 --> 02:16:40,080
Speaker 3: and he's using it to prop up the value of

2734
02:16:40,120 --> 02:16:43,280
Speaker 3: different crypto tokens on Alameda to make shit look like

2735
02:16:43,360 --> 02:16:45,640
Speaker 3: it which is money laundering, right, that's all. It's like

2736
02:16:45,760 --> 02:16:47,280
Speaker 3: theft and money. It's fraud, you know?

2737
02:16:48,520 --> 02:16:50,520
Speaker 2: Or is it the future Robert remember that?

2738
02:16:50,879 --> 02:16:54,680
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, remember what Larry David taught us all?

2739
02:16:55,640 --> 02:16:59,000
Speaker 2: I know there were some really unforgivable Uh.

2740
02:16:59,160 --> 02:17:00,600
Speaker 3: It's pretty funny, it is.

2741
02:17:01,160 --> 02:17:01,440
Speaker 1: Of all.

2742
02:17:01,680 --> 02:17:04,039
Speaker 3: It is like I am on team, Like I can't

2743
02:17:04,080 --> 02:17:07,520
Speaker 3: be angry at Larry David because honestly, if Larry David

2744
02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:11,920
Speaker 3: advertises a financial product, and you decide he seems like

2745
02:17:12,040 --> 02:17:16,840
Speaker 3: a good guy to this seems like a credible company

2746
02:17:16,920 --> 02:17:19,400
Speaker 3: to me. I don't know. That's a little bit on you, right,

2747
02:17:19,680 --> 02:17:20,640
Speaker 3: that's a little bit on you.

2748
02:17:21,560 --> 02:17:24,000
Speaker 2: Oho else was in that commercial? There was? That was

2749
02:17:24,080 --> 02:17:26,040
Speaker 2: a that was a damning commercial.

2750
02:17:26,440 --> 02:17:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah it is.

2751
02:17:27,080 --> 02:17:27,320
Speaker 2: It is.

2752
02:17:27,480 --> 02:17:29,960
Speaker 3: I still say a restaurant, Larry David. But that's for

2753
02:17:30,040 --> 02:17:31,359
Speaker 3: a variety of reasons.

2754
02:17:33,240 --> 02:17:35,680
Speaker 2: So I'm curious what your other reasons are. But that's

2755
02:17:35,760 --> 02:17:36,440
Speaker 2: for another day.

2756
02:17:36,640 --> 02:17:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's for a different day. So this caused so again,

2757
02:17:40,800 --> 02:17:42,520
Speaker 3: all of this shit. That is why this is like

2758
02:17:42,600 --> 02:17:47,200
Speaker 3: everything that was obvious in Alameda in twenty eighteen, This

2759
02:17:47,400 --> 02:17:49,400
Speaker 3: is all the stuff that he gets arrested for in

2760
02:17:49,520 --> 02:17:52,480
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. And when they become aware of this,

2761
02:17:52,640 --> 02:17:55,199
Speaker 3: of the fact that these fucking is subordinates and money laundering,

2762
02:17:55,600 --> 02:17:59,200
Speaker 3: a bunch of EA people start raising alarm bells. In

2763
02:17:59,280 --> 02:18:02,000
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, teams several Alameda executives try to

2764
02:18:02,080 --> 02:18:04,160
Speaker 3: force him out of the company and accuse him of

2765
02:18:04,280 --> 02:18:08,160
Speaker 3: gross negligence. Sam wins the power struggle, though, and so

2766
02:18:08,360 --> 02:18:10,680
Speaker 3: most of the EA management team and half of the

2767
02:18:10,760 --> 02:18:14,640
Speaker 3: company resign. Now this might be you could see this

2768
02:18:14,720 --> 02:18:17,160
Speaker 3: as like, well, maybe these effective altruist types were just

2769
02:18:17,240 --> 02:18:19,119
Speaker 3: in it for the altruism and once they saw Sam

2770
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:21,400
Speaker 3: with Shady, they packed up. And that's true for those

2771
02:18:21,480 --> 02:18:24,200
Speaker 3: individual people. You know, there's some decent people who just

2772
02:18:24,280 --> 02:18:26,680
Speaker 3: got caught up in the movement and they clearly had

2773
02:18:26,920 --> 02:18:31,800
Speaker 3: some degree of moral integrity, But the broader effective altruism movement.

2774
02:18:31,600 --> 02:18:35,920
Speaker 2: Incredibly low there, including unbelievable Will mccaskell.

2775
02:18:35,959 --> 02:18:39,840
Speaker 3: It's Pope never disaffiliated from Sam. Mccaskell was saying talking

2776
02:18:39,879 --> 02:18:43,120
Speaker 3: about Sam like the second fucking coming up until late

2777
02:18:43,200 --> 02:18:47,160
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, and in exchange for laundering Sam's reputation,

2778
02:18:47,720 --> 02:18:50,560
Speaker 3: Sam sent tens of millions of dollars one hundred and

2779
02:18:50,600 --> 02:18:53,520
Speaker 3: sixty million to EA causes in twenty twenty two alone.

2780
02:18:53,840 --> 02:18:58,240
Speaker 3: And that's why mccaskell maintained movement ties with Bankment Freed. Quote.

2781
02:18:58,800 --> 02:19:00,880
Speaker 3: In the weeks leading up to that April twenty eighteen

2782
02:19:00,959 --> 02:19:03,480
Speaker 3: confrontation with bankman Freed and in the months that followed,

2783
02:19:03,680 --> 02:19:05,760
Speaker 3: mccoley and others who was one of the executives that

2784
02:19:05,879 --> 02:19:09,520
Speaker 3: left warned mccaskell, Bexted and Karnofsky about her co founder's

2785
02:19:09,560 --> 02:19:13,320
Speaker 3: alleged duplicity and unscrupulous business ethics, according to four people

2786
02:19:13,360 --> 02:19:17,400
Speaker 3: with knowledge of those discussions. Buskal recalled speaking to McCully

2787
02:19:17,440 --> 02:19:20,520
Speaker 3: immediately after one of mccully's conversations with mccaskell in late

2788
02:19:20,560 --> 02:19:24,400
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. Will basically took Sam's side, said Buskal, who

2789
02:19:24,440 --> 02:19:27,160
Speaker 3: recalls waiting with McCauley in the Stockholm airport while she

2790
02:19:27,320 --> 02:19:30,640
Speaker 3: was on the phone, Will basically threatened her. Buscall recalls,

2791
02:19:30,720 --> 02:19:32,840
Speaker 3: I remember my impression being that Will was taking a

2792
02:19:32,840 --> 02:19:35,120
Speaker 3: pretty hostile stance here, and he was just believing Sam

2793
02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:37,360
Speaker 3: side of the story, which made no sense to me.

2794
02:19:38,120 --> 02:19:42,320
Speaker 3: So Will again perfectly willing to like throw down against,

2795
02:19:42,520 --> 02:19:44,640
Speaker 3: you know, the more honest people in his movement and

2796
02:19:44,760 --> 02:19:47,520
Speaker 3: personally threaten them in order to keep the money flowing

2797
02:19:47,640 --> 02:19:49,920
Speaker 3: to his fancy cause so that he can heal.

2798
02:19:50,000 --> 02:19:52,280
Speaker 2: Right, and then the second that it becomes, you know,

2799
02:19:52,440 --> 02:19:55,880
Speaker 2: pr inconvenient to keep the associate. There should be some

2800
02:19:56,120 --> 02:19:58,600
Speaker 2: maybe there is like a term for that of just

2801
02:19:58,720 --> 02:20:01,960
Speaker 2: like even the cadence of what you read earlier, of

2802
02:20:02,200 --> 02:20:06,400
Speaker 2: just like the disingenuousness of like oh I had no idea,

2803
02:20:07,040 --> 02:20:08,200
Speaker 2: You're like, okay, no.

2804
02:20:08,320 --> 02:20:11,040
Speaker 3: You knew damn well, what was going on, and you

2805
02:20:11,160 --> 02:20:15,160
Speaker 3: knew that that's what you were willing to continue pretending

2806
02:20:15,280 --> 02:20:17,720
Speaker 3: he was a good guy and aligned with your movement

2807
02:20:17,760 --> 02:20:20,200
Speaker 3: as long as the money kept flowing, right, No.

2808
02:20:20,320 --> 02:20:23,680
Speaker 2: Lee, Yeah, it no longer serves your best interests to

2809
02:20:24,240 --> 02:20:25,080
Speaker 2: stand by him.

2810
02:20:25,480 --> 02:20:30,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, now you'll h anyway, So, Sam, we

2811
02:20:30,879 --> 02:20:34,080
Speaker 3: don't actually know if he's completely bankrupt. We know he

2812
02:20:34,160 --> 02:20:36,760
Speaker 3: took about a billion in payments and loans from FTX.

2813
02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:39,119
Speaker 3: He claims not to really have any of that money,

2814
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:41,720
Speaker 3: and that he's he's working on getting what assets he

2815
02:20:41,800 --> 02:20:44,000
Speaker 3: does have to like get try to make a few

2816
02:20:44,080 --> 02:20:47,720
Speaker 3: more of the investors that they had whole. That said,

2817
02:20:47,800 --> 02:20:49,680
Speaker 3: we know that a big chunk of the money that

2818
02:20:49,760 --> 02:20:52,920
Speaker 3: he made was funneled into real estate in his parents' names.

2819
02:20:54,200 --> 02:20:56,760
Speaker 3: So that's fun. Speaking of his parents. One of the

2820
02:20:56,800 --> 02:20:59,440
Speaker 3: big early mysteries of his case was that when he

2821
02:20:59,520 --> 02:21:02,200
Speaker 3: gets out on two hundred to fifty million dollar bond,

2822
02:21:02,800 --> 02:21:05,200
Speaker 3: his parents are signed on to the bail agreement with

2823
02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:08,600
Speaker 3: their house as collateral. But there were also two mystery

2824
02:21:09,000 --> 02:21:11,600
Speaker 3: co signers and their house we'll be talking about this

2825
02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:14,200
Speaker 3: in a second is on the Stanford campus. The two

2826
02:21:14,320 --> 02:21:17,440
Speaker 3: mystery co signers were Larry Kramer, a family friend and

2827
02:21:17,520 --> 02:21:21,760
Speaker 3: the former dean of Stanford, and Andreas Popke, who signed

2828
02:21:21,800 --> 02:21:24,640
Speaker 3: a two hundred thousand dollars bond. Popkey is a senior

2829
02:21:24,680 --> 02:21:28,320
Speaker 3: research scientist at Stanford and an advisor to several Valley startups.

2830
02:21:29,840 --> 02:21:34,000
Speaker 3: So Stanford is very invested primarily because of who Sam's

2831
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:37,000
Speaker 3: parents are in this case, which is interesting.

2832
02:21:36,680 --> 02:21:39,680
Speaker 2: To me and okay, because that was I mean, that

2833
02:21:39,840 --> 02:21:44,200
Speaker 2: is my outside of his parents, I guess realistically, what

2834
02:21:44,640 --> 02:21:48,160
Speaker 2: is in it for them by taking that risk.

2835
02:21:48,920 --> 02:21:51,920
Speaker 3: I think it's actually just that these people are close

2836
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:55,040
Speaker 3: with his parents, who are professors at Stanford and deeply

2837
02:21:55,160 --> 02:21:56,400
Speaker 3: tied into that community.

2838
02:21:57,440 --> 02:21:59,320
Speaker 2: I can, I mean, I can very much see like

2839
02:21:59,600 --> 02:22:03,600
Speaker 2: Bouche Bougy parents with influence, being like, Sam's just a boy.

2840
02:22:03,840 --> 02:22:06,400
Speaker 2: Anyone could have made this mistake. He thought he was

2841
02:22:06,480 --> 02:22:08,480
Speaker 2: doing the right thing. He got mixed in with the rock.

2842
02:22:09,120 --> 02:22:12,520
Speaker 3: This has to just be like some sort of crazy

2843
02:22:12,640 --> 02:22:15,680
Speaker 3: mistake because they can't imagine he just it's so dumb

2844
02:22:15,720 --> 02:22:18,280
Speaker 3: and blatant, like all he did was rob people in

2845
02:22:18,480 --> 02:22:21,480
Speaker 3: order to like gamble, right, Like, fundamentally, there's not a

2846
02:22:21,560 --> 02:22:25,160
Speaker 3: difference between like him taking people's money, claiming that he's

2847
02:22:25,440 --> 02:22:28,840
Speaker 3: got a sure stock tip and then gambling at Vegas, Like, legally,

2848
02:22:28,879 --> 02:22:32,000
Speaker 3: there's no difference between that and what he did, but

2849
02:22:32,120 --> 02:22:37,160
Speaker 3: they can't because his parents are like ethicists basically at Stanford,

2850
02:22:37,280 --> 02:22:39,600
Speaker 3: and I don't think any of the people they are

2851
02:22:39,680 --> 02:22:43,119
Speaker 3: social with can imagine that his crimes were that venal

2852
02:22:43,240 --> 02:22:46,400
Speaker 3: and foolish. But you know whose crimes are not venal

2853
02:22:46,480 --> 02:22:51,880
Speaker 3: and foolish, Jamie, Oh, tell me, Robert, the products and

2854
02:22:51,959 --> 02:22:54,640
Speaker 3: services that support our podcasts.

2855
02:22:54,840 --> 02:22:57,560
Speaker 2: Never encountered a product I didn't love.

2856
02:22:57,920 --> 02:23:13,039
Speaker 3: No, that's exactly right. That's exactly right, and we are back.

2857
02:23:13,800 --> 02:23:17,119
Speaker 3: So initially, the reason why these other Stanford people are

2858
02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:21,000
Speaker 3: secret signers on to this bail agreement is because they

2859
02:23:21,040 --> 02:23:23,200
Speaker 3: were afraid that they would be attacked because of how

2860
02:23:23,280 --> 02:23:25,760
Speaker 3: angry people are at Sam and there was a reason

2861
02:23:25,840 --> 02:23:28,360
Speaker 3: for this. Shortly after he was sent to house arrest

2862
02:23:28,440 --> 02:23:30,920
Speaker 3: at his parents home, someone drove their car into a

2863
02:23:31,000 --> 02:23:36,320
Speaker 3: barricade set up outside of their house on the Stanford campus. Now,

2864
02:23:36,959 --> 02:23:39,440
Speaker 3: as I stated earlier, both the elder Bankman Freeds are

2865
02:23:39,520 --> 02:23:42,680
Speaker 3: former Stanford professors and their home is on campus, which

2866
02:23:42,680 --> 02:23:45,959
Speaker 3: has created issues for the school. The university still will

2867
02:23:46,040 --> 02:23:48,800
Speaker 3: not officially acknowledge that one of the world's most famous

2868
02:23:48,879 --> 02:23:52,640
Speaker 3: accused felons currently resides in their prestigious, walled academic garden

2869
02:23:53,080 --> 02:23:54,119
Speaker 3: one Washington.

2870
02:23:54,160 --> 02:23:58,520
Speaker 2: Stanford, like really fumbleshit constantly.

2871
02:23:58,680 --> 02:24:02,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, it's absurd. It's because they're not really

2872
02:24:02,800 --> 02:24:03,320
Speaker 3: that smart.

2873
02:24:03,440 --> 02:24:07,200
Speaker 2: But well, yes, this again another great case for it.

2874
02:24:07,320 --> 02:24:09,600
Speaker 2: It's also like, I don't know, just the arguing, like, well,

2875
02:24:09,920 --> 02:24:12,840
Speaker 2: his parents are like ethesis, how could he be fucked up?

2876
02:24:12,879 --> 02:24:15,240
Speaker 2: It's like, have you ever met someone with raised as

2877
02:24:15,560 --> 02:24:24,600
Speaker 2: no offense people of the people to call out any love,

2878
02:24:25,120 --> 02:24:28,080
Speaker 2: but it like they know, they know, they know language.

2879
02:24:28,280 --> 02:24:31,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So one part Washington Post article I found

2880
02:24:32,080 --> 02:24:35,400
Speaker 3: noted Stanford Law School didn't respond to requests for comment

2881
02:24:35,480 --> 02:24:37,879
Speaker 3: when asked whether they could confirm a rumor that nearby

2882
02:24:37,959 --> 02:24:40,760
Speaker 3: student co op had attacked the Bankman Freed home with eggs.

2883
02:24:41,040 --> 02:24:45,080
Speaker 3: Stanford campus police did not respond. Socially, however, Bankman Freed

2884
02:24:45,200 --> 02:24:47,920
Speaker 3: is a source of deep fascination. There are party flyers

2885
02:24:47,959 --> 02:24:51,119
Speaker 3: with his likeness. He's a punchline in campus comedy sketches.

2886
02:24:51,360 --> 02:24:55,000
Speaker 3: Students ride their bikes by on dates. The campus community

2887
02:24:55,120 --> 02:24:57,800
Speaker 3: is well aware he's there. An annotated map located the

2888
02:24:57,879 --> 02:25:00,440
Speaker 3: Bankman freed home was posted on a stud and only

2889
02:25:00,520 --> 02:25:01,360
Speaker 3: social network.

2890
02:25:02,240 --> 02:25:04,840
Speaker 2: Okay, I be honest. If someone asked you out and

2891
02:25:04,879 --> 02:25:07,600
Speaker 2: they're like, here's my concept for a first date. We're

2892
02:25:07,640 --> 02:25:11,560
Speaker 2: gonna go watch Sam Samuel Bankuin Free on.

2893
02:25:11,720 --> 02:25:15,039
Speaker 3: We're getting We're getting married that night, Jamie, Right, I was.

2894
02:25:15,080 --> 02:25:19,400
Speaker 2: Like, we're going like, bring a flask, watch one of

2895
02:25:19,879 --> 02:25:25,040
Speaker 2: history's stupidest villains, and then for each other in a

2896
02:25:25,080 --> 02:25:25,520
Speaker 2: parking lin.

2897
02:25:25,680 --> 02:25:29,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Jamie, that's that's the dream. That's the dream true.

2898
02:25:29,640 --> 02:25:29,920
Speaker 2: None of this.

2899
02:25:30,320 --> 02:25:33,160
Speaker 3: That's effective altruism right there. That's the greatest good for

2900
02:25:33,240 --> 02:25:34,440
Speaker 3: the greatest number of people.

2901
02:25:34,920 --> 02:25:37,520
Speaker 2: Sam could stand to learn a thing or two from.

2902
02:25:37,360 --> 02:25:45,080
Speaker 3: These these theoretical Stanford students. Yes, so if you so again.

2903
02:25:45,160 --> 02:25:48,000
Speaker 3: Sam's parents are both well respected teachers and experts in

2904
02:25:48,040 --> 02:25:51,800
Speaker 3: different fields of ethics boast were both were recruited to

2905
02:25:51,840 --> 02:25:54,320
Speaker 3: the university in the nineteen eighties, and they almost immediately

2906
02:25:54,400 --> 02:25:57,240
Speaker 3: hooked up. Barbara Freed made a name for herself as

2907
02:25:57,280 --> 02:26:00,320
Speaker 3: a she's like a philosopher. Basically, her big thing was

2908
02:26:00,400 --> 02:26:03,160
Speaker 3: she wrote a paper dissecting the ethics of the trolley problem.

2909
02:26:03,480 --> 02:26:07,160
Speaker 3: Whereas Joe Bankman is a finance ethics guy. He writes

2910
02:26:07,200 --> 02:26:10,720
Speaker 3: a lot about like again, like not breaking the law

2911
02:26:10,959 --> 02:26:14,199
Speaker 3: with finance shit. It seems to be a big focus.

2912
02:26:13,920 --> 02:26:16,879
Speaker 2: Of his This is a very obvious thing to say,

2913
02:26:17,000 --> 02:26:21,600
Speaker 2: but I do in defense of the Bankman family. I

2914
02:26:21,800 --> 02:26:25,680
Speaker 2: do appreciate when someone really rolls with their last name.

2915
02:26:26,080 --> 02:26:29,080
Speaker 2: I think that that is a very fun quality. This

2916
02:26:29,280 --> 02:26:31,240
Speaker 2: is this is an example of it not working out.

2917
02:26:31,320 --> 02:26:34,400
Speaker 2: I think it's also equally bizarre when someone has a

2918
02:26:34,480 --> 02:26:36,880
Speaker 2: last name where you were like, why are you not

2919
02:26:37,040 --> 02:26:40,000
Speaker 2: doing that job? For example? Yeah, maybe I've told you

2920
02:26:40,120 --> 02:26:42,480
Speaker 2: this before. It's one of my favorite facts I've learned

2921
02:26:42,640 --> 02:26:47,520
Speaker 2: in my life. My childhood dentist's name was doctor Vagenis

2922
02:26:48,400 --> 02:26:49,360
Speaker 2: and me.

2923
02:26:50,920 --> 02:26:51,160
Speaker 3: Great.

2924
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:55,880
Speaker 2: Nevertheless, Laurie's insisted in going into team for some reason,

2925
02:26:56,160 --> 02:26:59,680
Speaker 2: I found it infuriating. I'm like, just roll with it, man,

2926
02:27:00,080 --> 02:27:01,080
Speaker 2: that's your last name.

2927
02:27:02,959 --> 02:27:05,560
Speaker 3: An ethics board needs to go after this guy. No,

2928
02:27:05,680 --> 02:27:07,440
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I know you don't know how to do

2929
02:27:07,600 --> 02:27:10,280
Speaker 3: this job, but that's your life now. People will trust

2930
02:27:10,320 --> 02:27:13,120
Speaker 3: you until you figure it out. I do you you

2931
02:27:13,360 --> 02:27:19,560
Speaker 3: are the speaking of nominative determinism, Joe Bankman would be it.

2932
02:27:19,680 --> 02:27:22,760
Speaker 3: I wouldn't trust Joe Bankman as a drug dealer. But

2933
02:27:22,840 --> 02:27:25,800
Speaker 3: I would, I would. I would trust Johnny Cocaine as

2934
02:27:25,840 --> 02:27:31,080
Speaker 3: a financial expert, like like as a stockbroker. Johnny Cocaine, Yeah,

2935
02:27:31,160 --> 02:27:33,320
Speaker 3: let him invest my money. He knows what he's doing.

2936
02:27:34,840 --> 02:27:37,400
Speaker 2: I just know. Say what you will about Joe Bankman,

2937
02:27:37,520 --> 02:27:39,959
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you should. I know nothing about this man,

2938
02:27:40,480 --> 02:27:42,800
Speaker 2: but at least he got into the right business.

2939
02:27:43,120 --> 02:27:47,080
Speaker 3: Yeah he does, he does. Now I people talk with

2940
02:27:47,320 --> 02:27:49,920
Speaker 3: like awe about this guy, Like he's so ethical, he's

2941
02:27:49,920 --> 02:27:52,480
Speaker 3: such like a decent man. He thinks so much about

2942
02:27:52,520 --> 02:27:55,320
Speaker 3: doing the right thing. When Wash The Washington Post is

2943
02:27:55,360 --> 02:27:58,400
Speaker 3: like giving examples of noteworthy things in his past, one of.

2944
02:27:58,400 --> 02:28:00,480
Speaker 2: The ones that he must talk about ted Lasso.

2945
02:28:01,040 --> 02:28:03,200
Speaker 3: In two thousand and two, he wrote a tongue in

2946
02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:06,600
Speaker 3: cheek suggestion on how to avoid a Major League Baseball strike,

2947
02:28:07,120 --> 02:28:09,360
Speaker 3: and his solution in this paper that's supposed to be

2948
02:28:09,440 --> 02:28:12,640
Speaker 3: a joke was to levy taxes on teams and players

2949
02:28:12,680 --> 02:28:15,480
Speaker 3: who struck. That could only be avoided if the players

2950
02:28:15,560 --> 02:28:18,080
Speaker 3: donated money to charity or the teams agreed to sell

2951
02:28:18,200 --> 02:28:22,120
Speaker 3: nickel hot dogs Giants fans. Now, I don't know what

2952
02:28:22,400 --> 02:28:25,280
Speaker 3: the joke is here, but it apparently tore it up

2953
02:28:25,320 --> 02:28:28,840
Speaker 3: among mid upper middle class IVY League finance academics. They

2954
02:28:28,879 --> 02:28:30,640
Speaker 3: all talk about this is very funny.

2955
02:28:31,520 --> 02:28:34,640
Speaker 2: Wait it comes up again. Is like remember when he said.

2956
02:28:35,320 --> 02:28:38,320
Speaker 3: It was in the Washington Post article about this guy,

2957
02:28:38,440 --> 02:28:40,320
Speaker 3: as like, look at a look at this. This is

2958
02:28:40,360 --> 02:28:42,720
Speaker 3: like a noteworthy moment from his career. This like bad

2959
02:28:42,840 --> 02:28:45,720
Speaker 3: joke that he made. But I guess that's what fucking

2960
02:28:45,800 --> 02:28:47,320
Speaker 3: Stanford people find funny.

2961
02:28:47,520 --> 02:28:49,040
Speaker 2: Imagine maybe it's hilarious that.

2962
02:28:50,560 --> 02:28:52,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't get it.

2963
02:28:52,760 --> 02:28:56,359
Speaker 2: Christ Maybe Stanford people were just like I think it's hilarious,

2964
02:28:56,640 --> 02:28:58,760
Speaker 2: just like the word hot dog. They're like, oh poor

2965
02:28:58,840 --> 02:29:00,800
Speaker 2: people food love. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know.

2966
02:29:01,200 --> 02:29:04,960
Speaker 3: Now, everything you find about these people is like wow,

2967
02:29:05,360 --> 02:29:07,240
Speaker 3: taught like is their friends talking about life. It's so

2968
02:29:07,400 --> 02:29:09,800
Speaker 3: shocking that this could happen. You know, these were like

2969
02:29:09,879 --> 02:29:12,640
Speaker 3: the best people we knew. They were so concerned about ethics,

2970
02:29:12,920 --> 02:29:15,440
Speaker 3: They raised their sons like little adults, and they were

2971
02:29:15,440 --> 02:29:18,920
Speaker 3: always talking about utilitarianism. How could this have gone wrong?

2972
02:29:19,440 --> 02:29:22,440
Speaker 3: I don't know. I feel when I read anecdotes about them,

2973
02:29:22,560 --> 02:29:25,240
Speaker 3: like it's pretty obvious why it went wrong. And to

2974
02:29:25,320 --> 02:29:27,160
Speaker 3: kind of make that point, Jamie, here's a quote from

2975
02:29:27,160 --> 02:29:30,960
Speaker 3: an excellent write up by Puck news Quote. Bankman, who

2976
02:29:31,040 --> 02:29:33,240
Speaker 3: once boasted to a friend that his father had dutifully

2977
02:29:33,320 --> 02:29:36,560
Speaker 3: recorded every cash receipt, wrote three case books on tax

2978
02:29:36,640 --> 02:29:39,400
Speaker 3: shelters and tax evasion, becoming one of the country's leading

2979
02:29:39,440 --> 02:29:42,040
Speaker 3: experts on the subject. One of Bankman's law students in

2980
02:29:42,080 --> 02:29:44,920
Speaker 3: those early years was Peter Teel, who later told Bankman

2981
02:29:45,000 --> 02:29:47,680
Speaker 3: that his tax law class was his most valuable because

2982
02:29:47,680 --> 02:29:49,720
Speaker 3: he was able to put a lot of his Facebook

2983
02:29:49,760 --> 02:29:52,560
Speaker 3: stock in an IRA. As Bankman would later recall in

2984
02:29:52,600 --> 02:29:55,720
Speaker 3: a podcast, this modest feet of financial engineering would save

2985
02:29:55,879 --> 02:29:59,440
Speaker 3: Teel more than a billion dollars. So ethics, Jamie, No,

2986
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:02,480
Speaker 3: I'm saying a billion dollars in taxes so that Peter

2987
02:30:02,600 --> 02:30:07,240
Speaker 3: Thiel can spend it given Joe Swastika money to write

2988
02:30:07,280 --> 02:30:11,680
Speaker 3: New York Times columns on racism. Hooray, I love ethics.

2989
02:30:12,840 --> 02:30:16,400
Speaker 2: Holy shit. Yeah, and I and here I was a clown,

2990
02:30:16,640 --> 02:30:18,920
Speaker 2: a fool about to be like well, everyone wants to

2991
02:30:19,000 --> 02:30:22,039
Speaker 2: rebel against their parents. That's probably why he's a cartoon.

2992
02:30:21,800 --> 02:30:25,000
Speaker 3: Villain when he talks ethics. It's not getting busted for

2993
02:30:25,120 --> 02:30:27,400
Speaker 3: being a piece of shit with money. That's what it

2994
02:30:27,480 --> 02:30:30,160
Speaker 3: seems like to me, not an expert on ethics. I

2995
02:30:30,160 --> 02:30:32,320
Speaker 3: am an expert on being a piece of shit though, so.

2996
02:30:33,080 --> 02:30:36,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're a far different piece of shit.

2997
02:30:36,240 --> 02:30:37,000
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jamie.

2998
02:30:37,080 --> 02:30:38,840
Speaker 2: Thank Can I celebrate that about you?

2999
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:40,840
Speaker 3: That is?

3000
02:30:41,440 --> 02:30:44,680
Speaker 2: But I mean, I'm not, I guess shocked that that

3001
02:30:45,000 --> 02:30:50,800
Speaker 2: is exceedingly ethical to the Stanford crowd, but wow, damning.

3002
02:30:51,600 --> 02:30:55,240
Speaker 3: So anyway, Barbara Freed, being a good Liberal, was horrified

3003
02:30:55,320 --> 02:30:57,480
Speaker 3: by the Trump election and chose to fight back by

3004
02:30:57,520 --> 02:31:01,000
Speaker 3: founding a political fund right raising group, The Gap, which

3005
02:31:01,080 --> 02:31:04,000
Speaker 3: was extremely successful during the Trump years and is rumored

3006
02:31:04,040 --> 02:31:06,600
Speaker 3: to have acted as the model for ftx's own political

3007
02:31:06,640 --> 02:31:10,080
Speaker 3: donation machine. Both of Sam's parents have seen their reputations

3008
02:31:10,120 --> 02:31:12,200
Speaker 3: suffer with his arrest, and I'm going to continue with

3009
02:31:12,280 --> 02:31:15,480
Speaker 3: a quote from Puck. Official property records show that Joe

3010
02:31:15,520 --> 02:31:17,720
Speaker 3: Bankman and Barbara Freed were the named owners of a

3011
02:31:17,760 --> 02:31:20,959
Speaker 3: sixteen point four million dollar beachside vacation home in Old

3012
02:31:21,040 --> 02:31:24,400
Speaker 3: Fort Bay, part of a broader real estate portfolio owned

3013
02:31:24,440 --> 02:31:27,640
Speaker 3: by FTX and senior executives, totaling hundreds of millions of dollars.

3014
02:31:27,959 --> 02:31:29,760
Speaker 3: They may have stayed there while working with a company

3015
02:31:29,840 --> 02:31:32,640
Speaker 3: sometime over the last year. Sam said, though he denied

3016
02:31:32,680 --> 02:31:35,000
Speaker 3: knowing any details about the three hundred million dollars worth

3017
02:31:35,000 --> 02:31:37,360
Speaker 3: of real estate that FTX and his parents bought in

3018
02:31:37,400 --> 02:31:38,000
Speaker 3: the Bahamas.

3019
02:31:39,040 --> 02:31:42,720
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, so they know about absolutely everything in thee.

3020
02:31:42,200 --> 02:31:44,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like now. Joe and

3021
02:31:44,440 --> 02:31:46,200
Speaker 3: Barbara have said that they've been working to return the

3022
02:31:46,240 --> 02:31:50,119
Speaker 3: property to the company for some time, working too. Joe Bankman,

3023
02:31:50,200 --> 02:31:52,480
Speaker 3: in particular, has hardly been a passive observer in his

3024
02:31:52,560 --> 02:31:54,720
Speaker 3: son's scandal and may now be exposed to some legal

3025
02:31:54,800 --> 02:31:57,960
Speaker 3: risk himself. Bankman interviewed and hired the first lawyers for

3026
02:31:58,040 --> 02:32:01,080
Speaker 3: Alimeter Research back in twenty seventeen, and effectively served as

3027
02:32:01,160 --> 02:32:04,120
Speaker 3: ftx's first attorney. He handled the inbound that came and

3028
02:32:04,200 --> 02:32:06,840
Speaker 3: made the resulting introduction that helped FTX raise one hundred

3029
02:32:06,840 --> 02:32:09,560
Speaker 3: and thirty million from his former law student. Private equity

3030
02:32:09,640 --> 02:32:12,959
Speaker 3: mogul Orlando Bravo spent his free time on ftx's charitable

3031
02:32:13,000 --> 02:32:15,720
Speaker 3: and regulatory efforts, and was ultimately in the room before

3032
02:32:15,760 --> 02:32:18,400
Speaker 3: Sam made the fateful decision to sign the documents that

3033
02:32:18,480 --> 02:32:23,760
Speaker 3: declared Chapter eleven. So they seem very involved in shady themselves.

3034
02:32:24,360 --> 02:32:27,240
Speaker 3: I don't buy Oh, they're so innocent. Their son just broke,

3035
02:32:27,320 --> 02:32:29,480
Speaker 3: you know, made a mistake or whatever. They're all they

3036
02:32:29,520 --> 02:32:32,360
Speaker 3: all just didn't think that this was criminal because the

3037
02:32:32,440 --> 02:32:35,520
Speaker 3: people's money they were taking were poor, and they're fucking

3038
02:32:35,600 --> 02:32:38,920
Speaker 3: Stanford brats, Like I have no respect for them. I

3039
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:42,160
Speaker 3: hope they lose their fancy Stanford house. They heard a

3040
02:32:42,200 --> 02:32:42,560
Speaker 3: lot of wit.

3041
02:32:42,640 --> 02:32:46,680
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, particularly because I mean it sounds like

3042
02:32:46,840 --> 02:32:49,560
Speaker 2: this was their mo from the start anyways, So why

3043
02:32:49,600 --> 02:32:52,280
Speaker 2: would we now think that they would be above this

3044
02:32:52,560 --> 02:32:54,840
Speaker 2: behavior if they're like, oh no, here's a way, Like,

3045
02:32:55,200 --> 02:32:57,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like their definition of ethics

3046
02:32:57,879 --> 02:32:59,840
Speaker 2: is things you can technically get away with.

3047
02:33:00,160 --> 02:33:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not illegal for Peter Teal to get this

3048
02:33:03,000 --> 02:33:05,920
Speaker 3: billion dollars that he doesn't pay taxes on because you know,

3049
02:33:07,000 --> 02:33:11,040
Speaker 3: fuckery anyway, mister Bankman and missus Freed have joined now

3050
02:33:11,120 --> 02:33:14,959
Speaker 3: the expanding cast of disgrace Stanford affiliates. This includes recently

3051
02:33:15,120 --> 02:33:19,720
Speaker 3: university president Mark Tessier Levine, currently accused of manipulating images

3052
02:33:19,800 --> 02:33:21,840
Speaker 3: on research papers in a way that is equivalent to

3053
02:33:21,920 --> 02:33:26,640
Speaker 3: falsifying lab data for Alzheimer's research. Obviously, there's also Bastard's

3054
02:33:26,640 --> 02:33:30,840
Speaker 3: Pod alumni, the Thernos Lady, another famous Stanford disgrace. And

3055
02:33:30,920 --> 02:33:32,640
Speaker 3: then there's the fact that they're alumni King.

3056
02:33:33,120 --> 02:33:34,720
Speaker 2: My favorite Stanford disgrace.

3057
02:33:35,000 --> 02:33:37,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's all their alumni who have created

3058
02:33:37,520 --> 02:33:40,120
Speaker 3: companies or helped run them that have shattered the foundations

3059
02:33:40,120 --> 02:33:42,880
Speaker 3: of our democracy in pursuit of a quick buck. Stanford's

3060
02:33:42,920 --> 02:33:46,080
Speaker 3: current reputation is so grimy that a Washington Post article

3061
02:33:46,120 --> 02:33:49,360
Speaker 3: on SBF's associations with the school ends with these lines,

3062
02:33:49,440 --> 02:33:52,880
Speaker 3: and this is very funny. Jamie Adrian Daub, a Stanford

3063
02:33:52,920 --> 02:33:55,920
Speaker 3: professor of comparative literature and German studies and the author

3064
02:33:56,000 --> 02:33:58,920
Speaker 3: of what Tech Calls Thinking, sees an encouraging sign in

3065
02:33:58,959 --> 02:34:02,520
Speaker 3: Stanford being only peripherally involved in the bankman Freed scandal.

3066
02:34:02,760 --> 02:34:04,520
Speaker 3: That might not have been the case ten years ago.

3067
02:34:04,600 --> 02:34:07,320
Speaker 3: He notes, when the Silicon Valley heype machine operated at

3068
02:34:07,360 --> 02:34:09,520
Speaker 3: more of a fever bitch than it does today. Other

3069
02:34:09,600 --> 02:34:12,560
Speaker 3: than his physical location, it's actually not that connected to

3070
02:34:12,680 --> 02:34:15,040
Speaker 3: us for once, Dob said, And that way, it's a

3071
02:34:15,120 --> 02:34:18,640
Speaker 3: sign of progress and also a little bit melancholy. Stanford

3072
02:34:18,760 --> 02:34:20,480
Speaker 3: was a place where the future was shaped, so it's

3073
02:34:20,560 --> 02:34:23,520
Speaker 3: quite possible that's not happening anymore, that it's happening in

3074
02:34:23,560 --> 02:34:25,840
Speaker 3: the Bahamas now and only comes to Palo Alto once

3075
02:34:25,879 --> 02:34:26,720
Speaker 3: it gets indicted.

3076
02:34:30,000 --> 02:34:33,840
Speaker 2: That's so funny. I'm hung up on other than its

3077
02:34:33,920 --> 02:34:35,000
Speaker 2: physical location.

3078
02:34:35,320 --> 02:34:37,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, other than the fact that he's here. He's not

3079
02:34:37,320 --> 02:34:37,960
Speaker 3: very involved.

3080
02:34:38,600 --> 02:34:40,840
Speaker 2: That's a big one, Babe, that's a big one.

3081
02:34:40,959 --> 02:34:42,440
Speaker 3: But it does seem significant to me.

3082
02:34:43,640 --> 02:34:46,080
Speaker 2: No, if they're happy, I'm happy. That's great.

3083
02:34:46,280 --> 02:34:46,760
Speaker 3: It's funny.

3084
02:34:47,520 --> 02:34:51,840
Speaker 2: We have to return to Elizabeth Holmes at some point

3085
02:34:51,879 --> 02:34:55,760
Speaker 2: because I'm very uniquely interested in her rebranding as Liz.

3086
02:34:56,680 --> 02:35:01,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, genius Liz, because now I forgot in her horrible crimes.

3087
02:35:01,440 --> 02:35:03,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot about all of her crimes once she

3088
02:35:03,879 --> 02:35:06,440
Speaker 2: had a cool and relatable name and had school and

3089
02:35:06,480 --> 02:35:07,360
Speaker 2: relatable babies.

3090
02:35:07,560 --> 02:35:11,359
Speaker 3: Well, shed escape Henry kiss going by allan.

3091
02:35:11,920 --> 02:35:16,200
Speaker 2: That's true. We can't take away that she's scammed Henry Kissinger. Yeah,

3092
02:35:16,760 --> 02:35:20,280
Speaker 2: scam people out of their lives. But you know, yeah,

3093
02:35:20,600 --> 02:35:22,480
Speaker 2: but the Henry Kissinger thing we cannot forget.

3094
02:35:22,920 --> 02:35:25,560
Speaker 3: I say, we give her six months off as a

3095
02:35:25,600 --> 02:35:31,200
Speaker 3: result of the Kissinger stick to me. So this brings

3096
02:35:31,240 --> 02:35:34,080
Speaker 3: us to the subject of what precisely Sam Bankman Freed

3097
02:35:34,160 --> 02:35:35,640
Speaker 3: has been up to in the nine months or so

3098
02:35:35,879 --> 02:35:38,320
Speaker 3: since his fall from Grace The short answer is that

3099
02:35:38,400 --> 02:35:41,200
Speaker 3: he has not had a wonderful time. In January, a

3100
02:35:41,280 --> 02:35:43,720
Speaker 3: month or so after he was granted bail under house arrest,

3101
02:35:44,000 --> 02:35:46,679
Speaker 3: the Southern District of New York accused him of inappropriately

3102
02:35:46,800 --> 02:35:50,800
Speaker 3: contacting former and FTX employees in order to influence their

3103
02:35:50,840 --> 02:35:53,840
Speaker 3: testimony on his case. Sam tried to frame all of

3104
02:35:53,879 --> 02:35:56,320
Speaker 3: this as part of his ill advised apology tour that

3105
02:35:56,400 --> 02:35:58,880
Speaker 3: he embarked on last year in the lag period between

3106
02:35:59,000 --> 02:36:01,440
Speaker 3: FTX collapsing and his formal charges.

3107
02:36:01,920 --> 02:36:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, did he hit the notes out? What happened?

3108
02:36:04,440 --> 02:36:06,720
Speaker 3: Oh, he's like calling them. Actually, I'm going to read

3109
02:36:06,720 --> 02:36:09,400
Speaker 3: a quote from Puck in order to describe how he's

3110
02:36:09,480 --> 02:36:12,800
Speaker 3: illegally contacting people. On December twelfth, the same day he

3111
02:36:12,879 --> 02:36:16,119
Speaker 3: was arrested in the Bahamas, Bankman freed emailed FTX bankruptcy

3112
02:36:16,200 --> 02:36:20,080
Speaker 3: CEO John J. Ray the Third, offering potentially pertinent information

3113
02:36:20,240 --> 02:36:23,800
Speaker 3: concerning future opportunities and financing for FTX and its creditors

3114
02:36:24,080 --> 02:36:26,560
Speaker 3: and asked to work constructively with Ray in the chapter

3115
02:36:26,600 --> 02:36:30,160
Speaker 3: eleven teen to do what's best for customers. No response. Then,

3116
02:36:30,240 --> 02:36:32,920
Speaker 3: after his extradition, the crypto mogul sent another email to

3117
02:36:33,040 --> 02:36:35,960
Speaker 3: Ray on December thirtieth, in which he offered advice accessing

3118
02:36:36,000 --> 02:36:39,280
Speaker 3: Alameda funds. Still no response. Then, while being summoned to

3119
02:36:39,360 --> 02:36:42,520
Speaker 3: court in New York, SBF tried Ray again on January second.

3120
02:36:42,760 --> 02:36:44,640
Speaker 3: Mister Ray, I know things haven't gotten off on the

3121
02:36:44,720 --> 02:36:46,600
Speaker 3: right foot, but I really do want to be helpful.

3122
02:36:46,840 --> 02:36:48,800
Speaker 3: As I'm guessing you've heard, I'm in NYC for the

3123
02:36:48,840 --> 02:36:50,560
Speaker 3: next day. I'd love to meet up while I'm here,

3124
02:36:50,680 --> 02:36:53,040
Speaker 3: even if just to say hi. Ray to not take

3125
02:36:53,120 --> 02:36:55,720
Speaker 3: him up on this offer, and he has no shit.

3126
02:36:55,959 --> 02:36:57,880
Speaker 3: He's reached out to several people and it's always like,

3127
02:36:57,959 --> 02:37:00,400
Speaker 3: I just want to help, you know, get as much

3128
02:37:00,480 --> 02:37:02,920
Speaker 3: money as we can for the customers. I just want to,

3129
02:37:03,120 --> 02:37:05,680
Speaker 3: you know, help you deal with the confusing aspects of this.

3130
02:37:05,920 --> 02:37:08,640
Speaker 3: But it's it's like, you're not supposed to be talking

3131
02:37:08,800 --> 02:37:11,840
Speaker 3: to people when you're in SAM situation who were involved

3132
02:37:11,879 --> 02:37:14,480
Speaker 3: in the company like this, because they're probably going to

3133
02:37:14,520 --> 02:37:15,480
Speaker 3: testify against you.

3134
02:37:16,400 --> 02:37:20,240
Speaker 2: I don't feel convinced that he understands that. I don't know.

3135
02:37:20,360 --> 02:37:22,560
Speaker 2: He's talking like a fucking spam email.

3136
02:37:22,920 --> 02:37:26,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, he really is. And in general, Sam has opted

3137
02:37:26,920 --> 02:37:29,000
Speaker 3: to take all of the actions under house arrests that

3138
02:37:29,080 --> 02:37:32,000
Speaker 3: are likeliest to cause stress ulcers in his lawyers. In

3139
02:37:32,080 --> 02:37:35,760
Speaker 3: addition to repeatedly contacting FTX employees, he decided to start

3140
02:37:35,800 --> 02:37:38,840
Speaker 3: a sub stack where he planned to explain how ft

3141
02:37:39,280 --> 02:37:41,520
Speaker 3: and It's like, there's that famous line from the wire,

3142
02:37:41,600 --> 02:37:44,280
Speaker 3: are you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy? But in

3143
02:37:44,360 --> 02:37:46,880
Speaker 3: this point the case, it's like, are you publishing blog

3144
02:37:47,000 --> 02:37:51,080
Speaker 3: posts about your criminal conspiracy after being indicted?

3145
02:37:52,440 --> 02:37:56,200
Speaker 2: Such how growing an audience? Roberts, Yeah, lots, it's all

3146
02:37:56,320 --> 02:37:57,400
Speaker 2: a part of the play.

3147
02:37:57,720 --> 02:38:00,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like if al Capone had started a New

3148
02:38:00,280 --> 02:38:02,800
Speaker 3: York Times call him on having people machined gun and

3149
02:38:02,879 --> 02:38:05,720
Speaker 3: alleys after he'd gone away to fucking Alcatraz.

3150
02:38:07,440 --> 02:38:10,640
Speaker 2: Hear me out, you guys, it actually makes way more

3151
02:38:10,800 --> 02:38:12,120
Speaker 2: sense when I explain it.

3152
02:38:12,879 --> 02:38:15,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, so neither. He only writes, like I think, two

3153
02:38:15,560 --> 02:38:18,320
Speaker 3: posts before he gives up because they're they're bad. He's

3154
02:38:18,360 --> 02:38:20,360
Speaker 3: bad and blogging. I tried to read them. He's dog

3155
02:38:20,440 --> 02:38:20,959
Speaker 3: shit writer.

3156
02:38:21,280 --> 02:38:24,080
Speaker 2: Look, well, can I I mean not to be aggressive,

3157
02:38:24,160 --> 02:38:25,800
Speaker 2: but that's most substacked people.

3158
02:38:26,080 --> 02:38:30,800
Speaker 3: It's, by the way, find my substance, not you, Robert.

3159
02:38:31,160 --> 02:38:33,560
Speaker 2: There's more. No, I know you have more than two,

3160
02:38:33,840 --> 02:38:37,200
Speaker 2: but I'm just saying the average friend of mine that

3161
02:38:37,879 --> 02:38:43,840
Speaker 2: harangues me into you know these damn emails. It's two

3162
02:38:45,600 --> 02:38:48,640
Speaker 2: and and then they're done anyways, but I'm probably going

3163
02:38:48,720 --> 02:38:51,000
Speaker 2: to start one that's I'm just being insecure, sure what

3164
02:38:51,240 --> 02:38:51,600
Speaker 2: I wanted to.

3165
02:38:51,600 --> 02:38:55,040
Speaker 3: Do in a I think you'll beat Sam Bankman Freed, No,

3166
02:38:55,280 --> 02:38:56,240
Speaker 3: no questions, Ybert.

3167
02:38:56,280 --> 02:39:00,520
Speaker 2: Your substrack is great, Thank you, sir, Your substack's great.

3168
02:39:00,760 --> 02:39:03,760
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jamie is this has been wonderful for my ego.

3169
02:39:06,120 --> 02:39:11,720
Speaker 3: I actually read so Sam's is bad though, and it's bad,

3170
02:39:11,920 --> 02:39:13,440
Speaker 3: like and part of part of what he's doing is

3171
02:39:13,520 --> 02:39:17,640
Speaker 3: like he's been charged with a bunch of specific crimes, right,

3172
02:39:18,160 --> 02:39:20,760
Speaker 3: and the posts that he puts up he does not

3173
02:39:20,920 --> 02:39:23,560
Speaker 3: acknowledge any of the charges against him. He doesn't like

3174
02:39:23,720 --> 02:39:26,600
Speaker 3: defend himself from them. Instead, he lays out a bunch

3175
02:39:26,680 --> 02:39:30,199
Speaker 3: of misleading in arcane spreadsheets to try and like argue

3176
02:39:30,280 --> 02:39:33,640
Speaker 3: that the company shouldn't have collapsed the way it did

3177
02:39:33,760 --> 02:39:36,400
Speaker 3: and that he like didn't realize like why he didn't

3178
02:39:36,440 --> 02:39:38,760
Speaker 3: realize it was so bad. He's just he's doing it's

3179
02:39:38,800 --> 02:39:41,160
Speaker 3: the same thing as like the EA shit we open

3180
02:39:41,240 --> 02:39:44,520
Speaker 3: the episode with, right, this throwing out like confusing piles

3181
02:39:44,560 --> 02:39:47,600
Speaker 3: of numbers in order to distract people, right, Like, this

3182
02:39:47,760 --> 02:39:49,680
Speaker 3: is just like chaff, you know. That's what he's doing,

3183
02:39:49,840 --> 02:39:51,160
Speaker 3: is he's throwing out chaff in the way of a

3184
02:39:51,200 --> 02:39:56,280
Speaker 3: bunch of poorly formatted spreadsheets. They don't convince anyone that

3185
02:39:56,320 --> 02:39:57,360
Speaker 3: he's innocent to.

3186
02:39:57,360 --> 02:39:59,959
Speaker 2: Say, but it sounds like it. Also, it did not work.

3187
02:40:00,800 --> 02:40:02,760
Speaker 3: It did not work at all. You should not do

3188
02:40:02,920 --> 02:40:05,680
Speaker 3: this if you are being indicted for numerous financial crimes

3189
02:40:05,720 --> 02:40:10,600
Speaker 3: bt dubs. So in early February, the judge overseeing Sam's

3190
02:40:10,640 --> 02:40:13,760
Speaker 3: case forbade him from using encrypted messaging apps like Signal

3191
02:40:13,840 --> 02:40:16,640
Speaker 3: because he was so frequently trying to talk to other

3192
02:40:16,720 --> 02:40:20,040
Speaker 3: people who were part of this case with him in secret,

3193
02:40:20,280 --> 02:40:22,960
Speaker 3: which is illegal. He also got in trouble because he

3194
02:40:23,080 --> 02:40:26,160
Speaker 3: was caught using a VPN, which could have potentially allowed

3195
02:40:26,200 --> 02:40:29,160
Speaker 3: him to hide his communications. Sam argued he was just

3196
02:40:29,360 --> 02:40:33,400
Speaker 3: using a VPN to access his international NFL Game Pass account.

3197
02:40:33,680 --> 02:40:36,800
Speaker 2: So I was like, did he just say he was

3198
02:40:36,959 --> 02:40:39,520
Speaker 2: trying to want a Canadian Netflix? Yeah, that would be

3199
02:40:39,680 --> 02:40:41,199
Speaker 2: fucking classic officer.

3200
02:40:41,400 --> 02:40:43,600
Speaker 3: I just had a lot of shit to tour at, Homie, Like,

3201
02:40:45,040 --> 02:40:48,320
Speaker 3: you get it, my men. He has since been limited

3202
02:40:48,360 --> 02:40:52,039
Speaker 3: to a normal flip phone due to his repeated inability

3203
02:40:52,120 --> 02:40:55,119
Speaker 3: to abide by his bail conditions. Okay, Now, some might

3204
02:40:55,240 --> 02:40:57,960
Speaker 3: note that Sam has already gotten more second chances than

3205
02:40:58,000 --> 02:41:01,360
Speaker 3: most accused criminals get with their bail conditions. It seems

3206
02:41:01,440 --> 02:41:03,959
Speaker 3: accurate to say that the leniency he has received gave

3207
02:41:04,000 --> 02:41:06,279
Speaker 3: him reason to feel as if he could act with impunity,

3208
02:41:06,560 --> 02:41:08,840
Speaker 3: which is why a couple of weeks ago he leaked

3209
02:41:08,920 --> 02:41:12,439
Speaker 3: his ex girlfriend's diary to The New York Times, which.

3210
02:41:12,320 --> 02:41:16,840
Speaker 2: Is take me through the Witch's Why that wasn't what

3211
02:41:17,000 --> 02:41:18,480
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say.

3212
02:41:18,720 --> 02:41:21,000
Speaker 5: I know, I know, nobody thought it was gonna head here,

3213
02:41:21,280 --> 02:41:24,880
Speaker 5: you know, I mean it's although it seemed like we

3214
02:41:24,959 --> 02:41:28,200
Speaker 5: were due for another spiteful action against a woman for

3215
02:41:28,320 --> 02:41:29,280
Speaker 5: seemingly no reason.

3216
02:41:29,400 --> 02:41:35,040
Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely absolutely. Now I will say I don't like

3217
02:41:35,160 --> 02:41:38,160
Speaker 3: this woman either. Carolyn Ellison is I think a pretty

3218
02:41:38,200 --> 02:41:38,840
Speaker 3: shitty person.

3219
02:41:40,080 --> 02:41:42,279
Speaker 2: We spoke about her last time, right, Yeah, yeah.

3220
02:41:42,200 --> 02:41:45,840
Speaker 3: She unpleasant lady. She was the former CEO of Alameda.

3221
02:41:46,160 --> 02:41:49,720
Speaker 3: I've been fucking listening to this podcast called Spellcaster, which

3222
02:41:49,800 --> 02:41:52,960
Speaker 3: is like a wondery podcast about Sam Bankman Freed. I

3223
02:41:53,040 --> 02:41:55,360
Speaker 3: don't like it. The woman who does it, like was

3224
02:41:55,440 --> 02:41:58,240
Speaker 3: at a was at a bachelorette party with Carolyn Ellison

3225
02:41:58,320 --> 02:42:01,039
Speaker 3: right before the charges dropped and was like, Oh, she's

3226
02:42:01,080 --> 02:42:03,279
Speaker 3: so smart, She's so and she repeats the same bullshit

3227
02:42:03,280 --> 02:42:05,800
Speaker 3: everyone says about Sam. They were such, they were like geniuses,

3228
02:42:05,840 --> 02:42:08,720
Speaker 3: and it's like, no, they just like blew out a

3229
02:42:08,760 --> 02:42:11,480
Speaker 3: bunch of numbers you didn't understand and convinced you they

3230
02:42:11,520 --> 02:42:14,680
Speaker 3: were smart because they said numbers right, Like, there's nothing

3231
02:42:14,720 --> 02:42:16,600
Speaker 3: these people have done that is smart.

3232
02:42:17,240 --> 02:42:19,640
Speaker 2: With situations like that, I'm like, I guess I appreciate

3233
02:42:19,720 --> 02:42:23,800
Speaker 2: the disclosure, but like, why the fuck were you hired

3234
02:42:23,879 --> 02:42:24,720
Speaker 2: to do this show?

3235
02:42:25,000 --> 02:42:28,400
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's because big media is just as tiny

3236
02:42:28,480 --> 02:42:31,280
Speaker 3: and insular a world full of rich people as finance,

3237
02:42:31,760 --> 02:42:33,920
Speaker 3: and in fact, a lot of the same families have

3238
02:42:34,200 --> 02:42:38,320
Speaker 3: people at the times and people and fucking investment banks,

3239
02:42:38,320 --> 02:42:43,400
Speaker 3: which is why here at cool Zone Media, we exclusively

3240
02:42:43,520 --> 02:42:46,119
Speaker 3: hire people who used to sell ketamine on their college

3241
02:42:46,200 --> 02:42:47,480
Speaker 3: campuses in order to get by.

3242
02:42:47,680 --> 02:42:47,880
Speaker 2: You know.

3243
02:42:48,120 --> 02:42:51,240
Speaker 3: That's that's the that's the Cool Zone guarantee or adderall.

3244
02:42:51,879 --> 02:42:55,959
Speaker 2: You know, Iah, And I appreciate that you made an

3245
02:42:56,000 --> 02:42:58,400
Speaker 2: exception for some of us that you didn't have to

3246
02:42:58,480 --> 02:43:00,320
Speaker 2: be good at it, you just had to.

3247
02:43:01,560 --> 02:43:03,440
Speaker 3: No, in fact, we will not hire you. If you

3248
02:43:03,520 --> 02:43:06,160
Speaker 3: were good at Sellyn Drums campus.

3249
02:43:06,400 --> 02:43:07,840
Speaker 2: Why did you even apply.

3250
02:43:07,680 --> 02:43:12,240
Speaker 3: To this mediocre part time campus drug dealers? That's our

3251
02:43:12,360 --> 02:43:16,560
Speaker 3: that's our hiring pool. Yeah, that's our Like, I don't

3252
02:43:16,560 --> 02:43:18,760
Speaker 3: know whatever, I don't know the names of enough fancy.

3253
02:43:18,480 --> 02:43:20,680
Speaker 1: New York's really not that big of a stretch, let's

3254
02:43:20,720 --> 02:43:23,480
Speaker 1: be honest. I'm fucking proud of that.

3255
02:43:24,640 --> 02:43:34,720
Speaker 3: So Carolyn Ellison, former CEO of Alameda and also Sam's

3256
02:43:34,760 --> 02:43:37,760
Speaker 3: on again, off again bo she immediately turns.

3257
02:43:37,640 --> 02:43:40,160
Speaker 1: I don't like you using the term bo but continue

3258
02:43:40,200 --> 02:43:43,000
Speaker 1: Why not that's what I should I use boo.

3259
02:43:44,240 --> 02:43:47,480
Speaker 2: I kind of like boo. I was like, I was like,

3260
02:43:48,240 --> 02:43:49,320
Speaker 2: that doesn't really make sense.

3261
02:43:49,240 --> 02:43:53,440
Speaker 3: But there they were koboos. So she immediately turned state's

3262
02:43:53,520 --> 02:43:55,920
Speaker 3: witness and admitted guilt for her share of the illegal

3263
02:43:56,000 --> 02:44:00,240
Speaker 3: activities committed by Alameda, and she apparently, as a part

3264
02:44:00,600 --> 02:44:03,720
Speaker 3: as part of immediately rolling, handed over her diary. I

3265
02:44:04,120 --> 02:44:06,000
Speaker 3: think that's how they got her diaries with part of

3266
02:44:06,040 --> 02:44:09,600
Speaker 3: the terms of like the Yeah, so it gets introduced

3267
02:44:09,600 --> 02:44:12,440
Speaker 3: into evidence, which obviously Sam I think will get access

3268
02:44:12,440 --> 02:44:13,960
Speaker 3: to as a result of that, because that's the way

3269
02:44:14,000 --> 02:44:16,560
Speaker 3: discovery works. I believe that's how he got her diary.

3270
02:44:17,040 --> 02:44:19,400
Speaker 2: Was she also a Stanford Head?

3271
02:44:20,879 --> 02:44:22,480
Speaker 3: I don't think she went to I think she her

3272
02:44:22,560 --> 02:44:23,840
Speaker 3: parents were professors at M I.

3273
02:44:23,920 --> 02:44:27,440
Speaker 2: T h Wow yeah, losers over it.

3274
02:44:27,840 --> 02:44:31,879
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah, fucking just hobo University right there.

3275
02:44:32,560 --> 02:44:35,360
Speaker 2: Until it happens to me. I love when someone's diary

3276
02:44:35,520 --> 02:44:37,920
Speaker 2: is introduced into evidence, and that brings me back to

3277
02:44:38,040 --> 02:44:42,000
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Holmes yet again, when she like her her creepy

3278
02:44:42,120 --> 02:44:45,959
Speaker 2: little sexts with Sonny Belwani ooh, some.

3279
02:44:46,040 --> 02:44:49,680
Speaker 3: Of the worst sets, some of the very worst sex.

3280
02:44:50,040 --> 02:44:53,160
Speaker 2: That is maybe the moment that I felt closest to her.

3281
02:44:53,320 --> 02:44:55,680
Speaker 2: That's when she That's when Liz almost got me, because

3282
02:44:55,680 --> 02:44:58,360
Speaker 2: she was sending walls of text to this guy and

3283
02:44:58,400 --> 02:45:00,720
Speaker 2: then he was sending me back. Okay, and it's like,

3284
02:45:01,280 --> 02:45:02,879
Speaker 2: you know what, brutal.

3285
02:45:03,760 --> 02:45:06,320
Speaker 3: No, No, she deserves, she deserved a man like Jeff

3286
02:45:06,360 --> 02:45:10,000
Speaker 3: Bezos who would call her the most unsettling nickname I've

3287
02:45:10,040 --> 02:45:13,880
Speaker 3: ever heard, you know, but at least he responded a

3288
02:45:14,040 --> 02:45:18,920
Speaker 3: live girl. That's right, that's right.

3289
02:45:20,680 --> 02:45:25,040
Speaker 1: I think we we as we we we we we

3290
02:45:25,440 --> 02:45:28,000
Speaker 1: as a collective blocks that out intentionally.

3291
02:45:28,200 --> 02:45:31,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very funny. It does make it clear that

3292
02:45:31,120 --> 02:45:35,440
Speaker 3: he's not a robot because like, nobody, nobody fakes that.

3293
02:45:36,200 --> 02:45:39,120
Speaker 3: That's that's that's evidence that he feels something. What he

3294
02:45:39,160 --> 02:45:43,600
Speaker 3: feels is off putting, it's frightening, it's like profoundly unsettling.

3295
02:45:43,720 --> 02:45:45,080
Speaker 3: But he does feel something.

3296
02:45:45,240 --> 02:45:49,000
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, yeah, chat GPT could have outdone that in

3297
02:45:49,120 --> 02:45:50,560
Speaker 2: terms of sounding like a person.

3298
02:45:51,200 --> 02:45:57,000
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, Sam gets access to her diary

3299
02:45:57,120 --> 02:45:59,480
Speaker 3: one way or the other, and then he hands her

3300
02:45:59,560 --> 02:46:01,920
Speaker 3: diary to the New York Times so that they can

3301
02:46:02,000 --> 02:46:04,760
Speaker 3: write an article about it. Now that as unethical as

3302
02:46:04,879 --> 02:46:08,320
Speaker 3: fuck and possibly illegal. The prosecution has asked that he

3303
02:46:08,480 --> 02:46:12,080
Speaker 3: be jailed, that his bail will be revoked because of

3304
02:46:12,400 --> 02:46:15,160
Speaker 3: what he did here. Sam's this is still going on

3305
02:46:15,400 --> 02:46:17,920
Speaker 3: as we talk. I'll record a little update if he

3306
02:46:18,000 --> 02:46:20,440
Speaker 3: does go to jail as a result of this. Hey everyone,

3307
02:46:20,680 --> 02:46:23,480
Speaker 3: Robert here, just wanted to update you that, since we

3308
02:46:23,600 --> 02:46:27,000
Speaker 3: recorded this episode a couple of days before you're hearing it,

3309
02:46:27,480 --> 02:46:31,520
Speaker 3: Sam Bankman freed was remanded to custody. He is incarcerated

3310
02:46:31,600 --> 02:46:34,440
Speaker 3: now and he will remain in jail after violating his

3311
02:46:34,520 --> 02:46:39,120
Speaker 3: bail conditions, until his trial in October at least and

3312
02:46:39,320 --> 02:46:42,920
Speaker 3: possibly well beyond that, depending on how the charges and

3313
02:46:43,080 --> 02:46:47,040
Speaker 3: sentencing and all that stuff go. I should note that

3314
02:46:47,600 --> 02:46:50,240
Speaker 3: kind of the most recent story after that is that

3315
02:46:50,840 --> 02:46:53,000
Speaker 3: his lawyers requested that he'd be allowed to have his

3316
02:46:53,440 --> 02:46:57,080
Speaker 3: ADHD medication and depression medication, which he ran out of

3317
02:46:57,200 --> 02:47:00,680
Speaker 3: soon after being taken into custody. The judge is ordered

3318
02:47:00,760 --> 02:47:03,360
Speaker 3: that he'd be given that medication. Obviously, I'm always in

3319
02:47:03,480 --> 02:47:06,680
Speaker 3: favor of people who are incarcerated having access to medication,

3320
02:47:08,240 --> 02:47:10,840
Speaker 3: if anyone's interested. I don't actually think putting Sam in

3321
02:47:10,920 --> 02:47:13,640
Speaker 3: jails I'm going to do much good. I'm a little

3322
02:47:13,680 --> 02:47:16,160
Speaker 3: bit more mixed on this than I normally am, just

3323
02:47:16,280 --> 02:47:20,880
Speaker 3: because of the case of Adam Newman, the wee work

3324
02:47:20,959 --> 02:47:24,000
Speaker 3: guy who got off Scott Free from his giant financial

3325
02:47:24,160 --> 02:47:28,040
Speaker 3: crimes and is now starting another giant grift company. And

3326
02:47:28,040 --> 02:47:29,960
Speaker 3: we'll probably fuck with a bunch of other people's lives.

3327
02:47:30,560 --> 02:47:33,080
Speaker 3: But I do kind of think it's unlikely that we're

3328
02:47:33,120 --> 02:47:35,199
Speaker 3: going to get much benefit out of this. That said,

3329
02:47:36,200 --> 02:47:38,640
Speaker 3: I don't really feel for Sam. He had many many

3330
02:47:38,800 --> 02:47:42,000
Speaker 3: chances not to be in this situation, and he fucked

3331
02:47:42,000 --> 02:47:44,320
Speaker 3: all of them up. So, you know, fuck the guy.

3332
02:47:45,000 --> 02:47:48,000
Speaker 3: Sam's lauriy's have argued he was not attempting to discredit

3333
02:47:48,040 --> 02:47:50,720
Speaker 3: a week a witness, but just to respond to a

3334
02:47:50,879 --> 02:47:54,280
Speaker 3: toxic media environment, which he says unfairly portrays him as

3335
02:47:54,320 --> 02:47:57,760
Speaker 3: a villain. And I guess we're part of that toxic

3336
02:47:57,840 --> 02:48:02,320
Speaker 3: media environment. Although Sam retip here, handing your ex girlfriend's

3337
02:48:02,400 --> 02:48:04,480
Speaker 3: diary to the New York Times is a bad way

3338
02:48:04,560 --> 02:48:08,080
Speaker 3: to seem like, not the villain. That's kind of villain behavior, homie.

3339
02:48:08,280 --> 02:48:10,800
Speaker 3: That hate to tell you I.

3340
02:48:11,720 --> 02:48:14,160
Speaker 2: Again, but it's like again, you can imagine his like

3341
02:48:15,400 --> 02:48:19,640
Speaker 2: doofy loser fucking logic of like, no officer, I was

3342
02:48:19,760 --> 02:48:22,400
Speaker 2: just being a petty bitch. Is that just the law?

3343
02:48:22,600 --> 02:48:26,959
Speaker 3: And you're like this, yes, yes it is, actually, sir bruh,

3344
02:48:27,160 --> 02:48:30,360
Speaker 3: So humorously enough, that is the legal argument his lawyers

3345
02:48:30,360 --> 02:48:32,440
Speaker 3: are making, and they they kind of have a point

3346
02:48:32,480 --> 02:48:34,160
Speaker 3: because they're like, look, if you read the New York

3347
02:48:34,200 --> 02:48:37,200
Speaker 3: Times article based on her diary, he seems like a

3348
02:48:37,280 --> 02:48:40,480
Speaker 3: piece of shit. So clearly we weren't trying to influence

3349
02:48:41,640 --> 02:48:44,880
Speaker 3: the prosecution. And like, they do have a point because

3350
02:48:44,879 --> 02:48:47,200
Speaker 3: he does come across as the bad guy in that

3351
02:48:47,480 --> 02:48:49,520
Speaker 3: article that he made happen. So that's funny.

3352
02:48:50,560 --> 02:48:53,720
Speaker 2: This is the bad guy in most things.

3353
02:48:54,360 --> 02:48:56,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna quote from some of that New York

3354
02:48:56,760 --> 02:48:59,840
Speaker 3: Times coverage here, mister bankmin Freed and Miss Ellison have

3355
02:49:00,080 --> 02:49:03,960
Speaker 3: started an unsteady also started an unsteady romantic relationship, with

3356
02:49:04,120 --> 02:49:08,000
Speaker 3: multiple breakups and reconciliations. At times. Miss Ellison worried that

3357
02:49:08,160 --> 02:49:10,760
Speaker 3: mister Bankman Freed thought she wasn't good enough when he

3358
02:49:10,840 --> 02:49:13,280
Speaker 3: was around. She wrote in February twenty twenty two in

3359
02:49:13,360 --> 02:49:15,960
Speaker 3: a Google document, she had an instinct to shrink and

3360
02:49:16,040 --> 02:49:19,360
Speaker 3: become smaller and quieter and defer to others. After one split,

3361
02:49:19,440 --> 02:49:22,480
Speaker 3: miss Ellison cut off communication with mister Bankman Freed. I

3362
02:49:22,520 --> 02:49:24,959
Speaker 3: felt pretty hurt rejected, she wrote in the April twenty

3363
02:49:25,040 --> 02:49:28,040
Speaker 3: twenty two Google document. Not giving you the contact you

3364
02:49:28,080 --> 02:49:29,960
Speaker 3: wanted felt like the only way I could regain a

3365
02:49:30,040 --> 02:49:33,560
Speaker 3: sense of power. Miss Ellison was compensated far less generously

3366
02:49:33,680 --> 02:49:36,200
Speaker 3: than other top executives at FTX and Alomedia, though it's

3367
02:49:36,280 --> 02:49:39,160
Speaker 3: unclear whether she was aware of it. According to court filings,

3368
02:49:39,200 --> 02:49:41,920
Speaker 3: the exchanges founders and other key employees received three point

3369
02:49:41,959 --> 02:49:44,960
Speaker 3: two billion dollars in payouts and loans. Of that total,

3370
02:49:45,000 --> 02:49:47,600
Speaker 3: six million went to miss Ellison, compared with five hundred

3371
02:49:47,640 --> 02:49:50,840
Speaker 3: and eighty seven million for mister Singh ftx's head of engineering,

3372
02:49:50,920 --> 02:49:53,080
Speaker 3: and two hundred and forty six million for mister Wang,

3373
02:49:53,440 --> 02:49:56,280
Speaker 3: one of the founders. Mister Bankman Freed received two point

3374
02:49:56,320 --> 02:50:02,800
Speaker 3: two billion. SOEs Ellison is definitely not innocent here. She

3375
02:50:02,959 --> 02:50:05,920
Speaker 3: has admitted guilt in this case, but the reporting makes

3376
02:50:05,959 --> 02:50:07,920
Speaker 3: it seem as if her main role was to act

3377
02:50:07,959 --> 02:50:10,360
Speaker 3: as a patsy. Sam knew she was in love with

3378
02:50:10,480 --> 02:50:12,920
Speaker 3: him and deeply insecure, so he put her in charge

3379
02:50:12,920 --> 02:50:14,760
Speaker 3: of Alameda so that he could use it as part

3380
02:50:14,800 --> 02:50:17,120
Speaker 3: of his grift to manipulate the value of his CRISP

3381
02:50:17,200 --> 02:50:21,600
Speaker 3: crypto empire using customer funds. And this basically the six

3382
02:50:21,680 --> 02:50:24,240
Speaker 3: million he gave her, which is a tiny fraction of

3383
02:50:24,320 --> 02:50:27,400
Speaker 3: like the three billion they funnel to executives. That's like

3384
02:50:28,200 --> 02:50:30,360
Speaker 3: him paying her to be a smoke screen. Right, She's

3385
02:50:30,400 --> 02:50:32,840
Speaker 3: not an equal partner in this enterprise. And one of

3386
02:50:32,879 --> 02:50:34,680
Speaker 3: the things that had happened right before this fell apart

3387
02:50:34,840 --> 02:50:37,160
Speaker 3: is he had he had stopped paying attention to her

3388
02:50:37,240 --> 02:50:40,760
Speaker 3: in Alameda in order to start throwing money through another

3389
02:50:40,840 --> 02:50:43,280
Speaker 3: crypto exchange run from a woman he was fucking now

3390
02:50:43,520 --> 02:50:45,280
Speaker 3: that he had like, so it seems like this was.

3391
02:50:45,320 --> 02:50:46,200
Speaker 2: A path for him.

3392
02:50:46,200 --> 02:50:50,560
Speaker 3: Stop the stop what I'm not doing this. I'm just

3393
02:50:50,640 --> 02:50:51,560
Speaker 3: talking about what he did.

3394
02:50:51,720 --> 02:50:51,959
Speaker 1: I just.

3395
02:50:53,440 --> 02:50:55,800
Speaker 3: It's well, it's bad. He's a bastard. That's why we're

3396
02:50:55,840 --> 02:50:56,640
Speaker 3: talking about him.

3397
02:50:56,840 --> 02:50:59,640
Speaker 2: I really I just really need I don't know who

3398
02:50:59,720 --> 02:51:02,040
Speaker 2: needs to hear this, but we just really need people

3399
02:51:02,080 --> 02:51:03,600
Speaker 2: to stop fucking Sam Bankman.

3400
02:51:03,760 --> 02:51:08,959
Speaker 3: That's this is very bad, gross behavior.

3401
02:51:09,440 --> 02:51:11,800
Speaker 2: It's gross and it's bad for the world.

3402
02:51:12,760 --> 02:51:16,880
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, so you know, fuck this guy. One bit

3403
02:51:16,920 --> 02:51:19,320
Speaker 3: of schadenfreude I can give you all is that, according

3404
02:51:19,360 --> 02:51:22,800
Speaker 3: to Puck News, Sam's present situation is so unpleasant that

3405
02:51:22,920 --> 02:51:25,080
Speaker 3: he considers his trips across the country to go to

3406
02:51:25,160 --> 02:51:27,360
Speaker 3: court in New York the highlight of his life now

3407
02:51:27,640 --> 02:51:29,520
Speaker 3: because he gets to like go out in the street.

3408
02:51:29,600 --> 02:51:32,040
Speaker 3: He's surrounded by lawyers in private security, so it's like

3409
02:51:32,080 --> 02:51:34,760
Speaker 3: he's got an entourage again. He gets to travel. This

3410
02:51:34,920 --> 02:51:37,400
Speaker 3: is like the closest he gets to feeling like when

3411
02:51:37,440 --> 02:51:40,640
Speaker 3: he used to be a billionaire. So that's kind of fun.

3412
02:51:42,360 --> 02:51:45,000
Speaker 3: The downside is from the perspective of an FBF hater,

3413
02:51:45,120 --> 02:51:48,160
Speaker 3: the downside is that recently one of his charges was dismissed,

3414
02:51:48,520 --> 02:51:51,720
Speaker 3: the campaign finance violation. This was not due to him

3415
02:51:51,720 --> 02:51:54,640
Speaker 3: being innocent, but due to some legal weirdness involving the

3416
02:51:54,760 --> 02:51:57,480
Speaker 3: letter of the extradition agreement the US signed with the Bahamas,

3417
02:51:57,920 --> 02:52:01,199
Speaker 3: Basically when we put together the agreements that they'd extra

3418
02:52:01,280 --> 02:52:03,640
Speaker 3: died him, that was not on the document. So the

3419
02:52:03,720 --> 02:52:06,000
Speaker 3: FEDS had to like drop the charge in order to

3420
02:52:06,080 --> 02:52:09,400
Speaker 3: not deal with a bunch of other bullshit. It's a technicality,

3421
02:52:09,520 --> 02:52:12,039
Speaker 3: but it means that his brother, Gabe and several members

3422
02:52:12,080 --> 02:52:14,720
Speaker 3: of the philanthropic team at FTX probably will not be

3423
02:52:14,920 --> 02:52:18,200
Speaker 3: charged for very likely committing crimes. And I say they

3424
02:52:18,440 --> 02:52:23,280
Speaker 3: likely committed crimes because FTX executive Nashad Singh already pled

3425
02:52:23,360 --> 02:52:26,800
Speaker 3: guilty this spring to participating in a straw donor scheme,

3426
02:52:27,640 --> 02:52:30,560
Speaker 3: so he is, yeah, and he pled guilty before they

3427
02:52:30,680 --> 02:52:32,720
Speaker 3: dropped this charge, which he's got to feel like an

3428
02:52:32,720 --> 02:52:35,320
Speaker 3: asshole for doing because now he is going to get

3429
02:52:35,360 --> 02:52:38,000
Speaker 3: punished for that, even though SBF is no longer being

3430
02:52:38,120 --> 02:52:38,760
Speaker 3: charged for it.

3431
02:52:39,000 --> 02:52:42,959
Speaker 2: Wow, that's I mean. Look, sometimes you do the ethical

3432
02:52:43,320 --> 02:52:46,160
Speaker 2: altruistic thing and it comes back to bite you in

3433
02:52:46,240 --> 02:52:47,800
Speaker 2: the ass. What are you to do?

3434
02:52:48,920 --> 02:52:49,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, what are you going to do?

3435
02:52:50,600 --> 02:52:50,720
Speaker 1: Hey?

3436
02:52:50,760 --> 02:52:53,320
Speaker 3: Everyone just wanted to note that since we recorded this,

3437
02:52:53,480 --> 02:52:56,120
Speaker 3: the prosecution has noted that they will be seeking to

3438
02:52:56,320 --> 02:53:00,520
Speaker 3: add those charges back on that were dropped. So it's

3439
02:53:00,600 --> 02:53:03,400
Speaker 3: possible that both Sam and other members of his inner

3440
02:53:03,480 --> 02:53:06,440
Speaker 3: circle will be charged with all that stuff. We just

3441
02:53:06,520 --> 02:53:08,600
Speaker 3: really kind of don't know at this point. But I

3442
02:53:08,680 --> 02:53:11,680
Speaker 3: do want to note that the prosecutions at least saying, hey, like,

3443
02:53:11,959 --> 02:53:16,320
Speaker 3: despite this little mess up, we are not just giving

3444
02:53:16,440 --> 02:53:19,520
Speaker 3: up on this charge. So heads up about that could

3445
02:53:19,600 --> 02:53:25,440
Speaker 3: change in the future. Well, Jamie, yeah, how you doing.

3446
02:53:26,480 --> 02:53:28,600
Speaker 2: I really well, I have a question for you.

3447
02:53:29,680 --> 02:53:30,680
Speaker 3: I have an answer for you.

3448
02:53:31,520 --> 02:53:35,000
Speaker 2: Well, I sure fucking hope. So no. My question is

3449
02:53:35,240 --> 02:53:38,880
Speaker 2: that I'm curious, what do you see happening here? What

3450
02:53:39,080 --> 02:53:41,280
Speaker 2: feels plausible to you at this time.

3451
02:53:42,120 --> 02:53:44,120
Speaker 3: You know, I've been seeing a lot of people be like, Oh,

3452
02:53:44,200 --> 02:53:45,560
Speaker 3: he's going to get off, He's going to get all

3453
02:53:45,600 --> 02:53:48,000
Speaker 3: he's got too many connections, too many you know, people

3454
02:53:48,320 --> 02:53:50,960
Speaker 3: who he could roll on. I don't think he has

3455
02:53:51,080 --> 02:53:53,760
Speaker 3: many people he could really roll on. I don't think

3456
02:53:54,040 --> 02:53:57,840
Speaker 3: he was like, especially since these finance charges have been dropped.

3457
02:53:57,879 --> 02:54:00,520
Speaker 3: I don't know that. I really think he he's got

3458
02:54:00,600 --> 02:54:04,439
Speaker 3: the savvy to have, like a guy like John McAfee.

3459
02:54:04,840 --> 02:54:08,039
Speaker 3: I believe John McAfee killed himself. I don't believe there's

3460
02:54:08,080 --> 02:54:10,160
Speaker 3: anything shady there. I know a lot about the guy.

3461
02:54:10,200 --> 02:54:12,360
Speaker 3: It makes sense to me that when his fucking running

3462
02:54:12,480 --> 02:54:17,119
Speaker 3: finally stopped, he would do that. But McAfee probably did

3463
02:54:17,280 --> 02:54:19,760
Speaker 3: have some dirt on some people. He was that kind

3464
02:54:19,800 --> 02:54:22,760
Speaker 3: of cunning, right, I wouldn't be shocked if John McAfee

3465
02:54:22,879 --> 02:54:25,320
Speaker 3: had put together some dirt on some people, right. I

3466
02:54:25,400 --> 02:54:28,040
Speaker 3: don't think Sam Bankman Freed is that cunning. I don't

3467
02:54:28,040 --> 02:54:30,000
Speaker 3: think he was like smart enough to have dirt on

3468
02:54:30,120 --> 02:54:33,400
Speaker 3: anyone who could get him out of this situation. I

3469
02:54:33,520 --> 02:54:36,080
Speaker 3: think there's a pretty good chance he does hard time.

3470
02:54:36,400 --> 02:54:38,600
Speaker 3: I think he fucked with too many people, he fucked

3471
02:54:38,600 --> 02:54:40,600
Speaker 3: with the money, and he fucked with it in too

3472
02:54:40,760 --> 02:54:42,440
Speaker 3: dumb of a way. So I think he's screwed.

3473
02:54:42,920 --> 02:54:45,600
Speaker 2: Okay, that was my instinct as well, because I feel

3474
02:54:45,600 --> 02:54:47,520
Speaker 2: like he doesn't even have I mean, he doesn't have

3475
02:54:47,680 --> 02:54:51,360
Speaker 2: any sort of like I think sometimes with these types

3476
02:54:51,920 --> 02:54:54,120
Speaker 2: you get some sort of press narrative that it's like

3477
02:54:54,200 --> 02:54:57,480
Speaker 2: they're playing four D chess, and like, even if that's

3478
02:54:57,600 --> 02:55:00,480
Speaker 2: not entirely true, there's like a median narrative that sticks

3479
02:55:00,520 --> 02:55:03,160
Speaker 2: to them that makes them seem more plausible but I

3480
02:55:03,360 --> 02:55:06,119
Speaker 2: just feel like everything that's like, all of his actions

3481
02:55:06,240 --> 02:55:08,800
Speaker 2: and all of the media surrounding him, except for a

3482
02:55:08,959 --> 02:55:12,280
Speaker 2: very very small amount, seems to reinforce the fact that

3483
02:55:12,400 --> 02:55:16,760
Speaker 2: he's completely incompetent and malicious in every way.

3484
02:55:18,160 --> 02:55:21,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would say that.

3485
02:55:22,320 --> 02:55:27,280
Speaker 2: Well, good God, I mean not that I you know,

3486
02:55:27,560 --> 02:55:29,400
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean it seems like he's fucked.

3487
02:55:29,400 --> 02:55:30,680
Speaker 2: I certainly hope he's fucked.

3488
02:55:31,600 --> 02:55:34,160
Speaker 3: I hope he's fucked. I hate him. I think he's

3489
02:55:34,200 --> 02:55:38,520
Speaker 3: a gross person. I hope Will mccaskell goes away or

3490
02:55:38,600 --> 02:55:41,080
Speaker 3: gets like eaten, eaten by a large fish would be

3491
02:55:41,200 --> 02:55:43,960
Speaker 3: my pick if I got it. If like God is like,

3492
02:55:44,000 --> 02:55:45,400
Speaker 3: what do you want me to do to Will mccaskal,

3493
02:55:45,440 --> 02:55:46,960
Speaker 3: I'm like, you, you remember that thing he did with

3494
02:55:47,040 --> 02:55:49,360
Speaker 3: a whale back in the day. What if he didn't

3495
02:55:49,400 --> 02:55:51,400
Speaker 3: get out? What if a whale just eats him?

3496
02:55:51,480 --> 02:55:51,640
Speaker 4: You know?

3497
02:55:52,120 --> 02:55:53,640
Speaker 2: And then God'd be like, oh, amazing.

3498
02:55:53,920 --> 02:55:57,560
Speaker 3: I love playing the hits great pitch. You know what, Robert,

3499
02:55:58,280 --> 02:56:01,080
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give you that HBOC you've been asking for.

3500
02:56:01,640 --> 02:56:04,119
Speaker 2: Robert, you are an amazing collaborator.

3501
02:56:05,160 --> 02:56:09,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, me and God co creators of my HBO series.

3502
02:56:10,160 --> 02:56:12,320
Speaker 3: I am hoping if the strike goes on, they take

3503
02:56:12,400 --> 02:56:15,280
Speaker 3: my reality show pitch super Soaker full of Piss, which

3504
02:56:15,320 --> 02:56:19,160
Speaker 3: I really think has some potential Jamie, I mean premises.

3505
02:56:20,600 --> 02:56:23,080
Speaker 2: No, go ahead, tell me the promise of super Soaker

3506
02:56:23,160 --> 02:56:24,840
Speaker 2: full of piss, Robert. I'm ready.

3507
02:56:25,040 --> 02:56:27,560
Speaker 3: So I'm in a van. I filled a super soaker

3508
02:56:27,680 --> 02:56:31,040
Speaker 3: with my piss, and I drive around like Rodeo drive,

3509
02:56:31,360 --> 02:56:33,920
Speaker 3: and I get out when I see someone who looks famous,

3510
02:56:34,120 --> 02:56:36,200
Speaker 3: and I score them with a super soaker full of piss,

3511
02:56:37,480 --> 02:56:39,640
Speaker 3: and then we film it and then I leave very quickly.

3512
02:56:40,760 --> 02:56:42,360
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean I'm on top with that.

3513
02:56:42,720 --> 02:56:44,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a great I think it's you know,

3514
02:56:45,640 --> 02:56:47,640
Speaker 3: I will get you know, I don't.

3515
02:56:48,200 --> 02:56:50,280
Speaker 2: I would be kind of pro like if you could

3516
02:56:50,320 --> 02:56:52,920
Speaker 2: get I think the soundtrack is going to be really

3517
02:56:53,160 --> 02:56:55,320
Speaker 2: key there, Like I think if you could give me some.

3518
02:56:55,520 --> 02:57:01,879
Speaker 4: Like Jock jam situation, like this is exciting all live, all.

3519
02:57:01,879 --> 02:57:05,400
Speaker 3: Live editions of Blink one eighty two songs because you know,

3520
02:57:05,640 --> 02:57:07,640
Speaker 3: because they have they are one of the worst live

3521
02:57:07,760 --> 02:57:12,240
Speaker 3: bands that ever played. So it's really just upsetting to

3522
02:57:12,360 --> 02:57:14,320
Speaker 3: the to the viewer. That's the goal here.

3523
02:57:14,720 --> 02:57:17,080
Speaker 2: And you know, given who Blink one eighty two like

3524
02:57:17,240 --> 02:57:19,880
Speaker 2: rolls with these days, you may in fact run into

3525
02:57:20,000 --> 02:57:23,920
Speaker 2: Travis on Rodeo Drive. Oh yeah, utial full poet.

3526
02:57:23,760 --> 02:57:27,120
Speaker 3: Just right in the face, just just a full load

3527
02:57:27,200 --> 02:57:29,040
Speaker 3: of it, you know, just to say.

3528
02:57:29,680 --> 02:57:32,600
Speaker 1: I hate this idea because it means that some fucking

3529
02:57:32,680 --> 02:57:35,960
Speaker 1: celebrity will murder you and then we'll be gone, and

3530
02:57:36,040 --> 02:57:36,840
Speaker 1: then I'll be sad.

3531
02:57:37,280 --> 02:57:40,199
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be honest. I'm not great at recognizing celebrities,

3532
02:57:40,240 --> 02:57:42,400
Speaker 3: so I'm anytime I could just see someone in a

3533
02:57:42,480 --> 02:57:46,240
Speaker 3: suit and spray them with the piss. Yeah, Jamie, I know,

3534
02:57:46,800 --> 02:57:51,280
Speaker 3: we can sell so many others. No, we just roll

3535
02:57:51,360 --> 02:57:54,640
Speaker 3: down the street and stick Jonas Roberts spray, spray, spray,

3536
02:57:54,760 --> 02:57:55,560
Speaker 3: get the fuck.

3537
02:57:55,360 --> 02:57:59,760
Speaker 2: Out of here. Wow, No, Jonah is Robert.

3538
02:58:00,000 --> 02:58:02,920
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, that's right. I'm going to rely

3539
02:58:03,080 --> 02:58:05,360
Speaker 3: on Jamie to recognize him though, Oh my.

3540
02:58:05,480 --> 02:58:09,520
Speaker 2: God, I did see that, Jamie. Yeah, all right. Well,

3541
02:58:09,800 --> 02:58:13,039
Speaker 2: the Jonas brothers have their own vanity popcorn brand, now,

3542
02:58:13,360 --> 02:58:16,320
Speaker 2: isn't that something? These are the amazing things I can

3543
02:58:16,400 --> 02:58:19,039
Speaker 2: teach you, Robert, and.

3544
02:58:19,040 --> 02:58:22,080
Speaker 3: I've already taught me so much about hot dog through

3545
02:58:22,160 --> 02:58:24,120
Speaker 3: your best selling book Raw Dog.

3546
02:58:24,800 --> 02:58:26,800
Speaker 2: Wow, perfect pivot.

3547
02:58:26,840 --> 02:58:28,279
Speaker 3: You're welcome us welcome.

3548
02:58:28,000 --> 02:58:32,879
Speaker 2: Spicy plug though gorgeous, gorgeous plug. Hey, it's never too

3549
02:58:33,000 --> 02:58:35,640
Speaker 2: late to start reading about hot dogs. It's never too late,

3550
02:58:35,680 --> 02:58:36,840
Speaker 2: never learning.

3551
02:58:37,280 --> 02:58:43,160
Speaker 3: Reading about hot dogs and also America fascinating story. Raw

3552
02:58:43,200 --> 02:58:45,240
Speaker 3: Dog find it wherever books are found.

3553
02:58:46,840 --> 02:58:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you so much. I truly I was.

3554
02:58:50,400 --> 02:58:54,280
Speaker 2: I mean, as you know, I did a Bastards episode

3555
02:58:54,360 --> 02:58:57,080
Speaker 2: about hot dogs as I was writing that book so

3556
02:58:57,160 --> 02:58:58,879
Speaker 2: that I would remain focused.

3557
02:58:59,800 --> 02:59:00,800
Speaker 3: Right, It's the best way.

3558
02:59:01,480 --> 02:59:05,800
Speaker 2: And I have heard that the subject of that episode, George,

3559
02:59:05,840 --> 02:59:10,280
Speaker 2: say that the hot dog eating community is actively protecting

3560
02:59:10,360 --> 02:59:12,640
Speaker 2: him from its existence. He does not know it exists,

3561
02:59:12,959 --> 02:59:16,680
Speaker 2: he doesn't know the book. Everyone in his life is

3562
02:59:16,920 --> 02:59:20,920
Speaker 2: really actively try like every hot dog eater or many

3563
02:59:21,440 --> 02:59:24,280
Speaker 2: meters I talked to, We're like, yeah, no, we know

3564
02:59:24,360 --> 02:59:26,440
Speaker 2: about the Bassard's episode and we know about the book,

3565
02:59:26,480 --> 02:59:28,800
Speaker 2: but we really don't want George to know about it.

3566
02:59:28,959 --> 02:59:32,960
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, fair enough, beautiful and Jamie, that

3567
02:59:33,120 --> 02:59:35,360
Speaker 3: made me feel great. And you can sign up for

3568
02:59:35,480 --> 02:59:38,280
Speaker 3: this show and all other cool Zone shows ad free

3569
02:59:38,360 --> 02:59:42,200
Speaker 3: at cooler Zone Media. That's for Apple subscribers. We are

3570
02:59:42,240 --> 02:59:44,800
Speaker 3: working on the Android option. You can find my novel

3571
02:59:44,879 --> 02:59:47,960
Speaker 3: After the Revolution by typing after the Revolution into whatever

3572
02:59:48,400 --> 02:59:51,320
Speaker 3: book buying site you use, or just walk into a

3573
02:59:51,440 --> 02:59:57,320
Speaker 3: bookstore and demand it from the manager at sword point anyway, Goodbye,

3574
02:59:57,680 --> 02:59:58,320
Speaker 3: Goodbye Bye.

3575
03:00:01,879 --> 03:00:04,560
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

3576
03:00:04,959 --> 03:00:08,200
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

3577
03:00:08,400 --> 03:00:11,560
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3578
03:00:11,680 --> 03:00:14,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

3579
03:00:14,840 --> 03:00:18,879
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

3580
03:00:19,000 --> 03:00:22,640
Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

3581
03:00:22,879 --> 03:00:24,320
Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards