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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: our crab Bag twenty twenty six series. This is a

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Speaker 3: kind of chef salad of all things crab.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: We were just out for a week in between when

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Speaker 3: we recorded the last couple of crab episodes, and this

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Speaker 3: one's a rob Did anything krabby happen to you in

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Speaker 3: the past week.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's see. Put me on the spot here. I

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Speaker 2: spent my time in Arizona, so I didn't really see

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Speaker 2: any actual crabs. But I did go to the Musical

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Speaker 2: Instrument Museum in Phoenix, and I did see some musical

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Speaker 2: instruments that were shaped like crabs, which makes sense for

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Speaker 2: a number of reasons. The big one that we're going

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Speaker 2: to keep coming back to in this series. It's just

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Speaker 2: that crabs are fascinating, just their basic body shape, their movements.

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Speaker 2: We can't get enough of them, and we want to

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Speaker 2: reproduce their bodies in our art and in our tools.

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Speaker 3: This is interesting. I didn't know this would connect to

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Speaker 3: a major theme of today's episode, which is ye crab

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Speaker 3: inspired technology. So in the previous two episodes of this

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Speaker 3: series we talked about, first the sixteenth century legend of

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Speaker 3: the miracle crab, associated with the Catholic missionary figure Saint

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Speaker 3: Francis Xavier. This was a crab said to have carried

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Speaker 3: a lost crucifix out out of the ocean, aloft in

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Speaker 3: its claws and back to its original owner, the Saint

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Speaker 3: Francis Xavior I just mentioned. We talked a bit about

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Speaker 3: the loose connection between that story and a real species

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Speaker 3: known as the crucifix crab, getting a bit into the

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Speaker 3: question of it's what this crab's cross shaped markings are

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Speaker 3: probably four biologically speaking. This led in the second episode

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Speaker 3: we did into a broader discussion of object carrying behavior

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Speaker 3: in crabs, something that actually does happen quite a bit

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Speaker 3: in nature. Different forms of object carrying in different crab lineages,

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Speaker 3: none of them really matched what we find in the

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Speaker 3: miracle story. The crabs that carry things usually do so

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Speaker 3: on their backs or with their back legs, rather than

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Speaker 3: in their primary clause. The main exception to this generalization

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Speaker 3: is the boxer crab, which does carry things in its

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Speaker 3: main clause, but those things tend to be living anemonies,

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Speaker 3: which they use for feeding in defense, not inanimate objects.

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Speaker 3: We also talked about a type of burrowing crab lineage

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Speaker 3: known as the frog crabs. This includes the species Ranina ranina,

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Speaker 3: and these crabs have gone through an unusual evolutionary pattern

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Speaker 3: you might call decarsonization or uncrabification, becoming less like their

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Speaker 3: crab cousins and a bit more like their lobster shaped ands,

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Speaker 3: with a front to back elongated body. They don't regain

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Speaker 3: the long, muscular lobster swimming tail, but they do have

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Speaker 3: a longer body and a tendency to move forward and

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Speaker 3: backward rather than side to side and rob correct me

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Speaker 3: if I'm wrong. I think the idea was this is

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Speaker 3: this elongation front to back of the body is probably

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Speaker 3: related to the frog crabs tendency to be backwards burrowing species.

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Speaker 2: That is the reason for it. Yeah. Yeah, It just

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Speaker 2: goes to show once more, with evolution the card is

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Speaker 2: always subject to change.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah. And there really is no forward or

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Speaker 3: backward in evolution. There's just all different directions. It's like space,

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Speaker 3: there's no upper down. We also talked briefly about some

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Speaker 3: older reports of a very interesting crab shaped beast in

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Speaker 3: the sorcery traditions of the London people of Zambia. This

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Speaker 3: creature is known as the Nkala, which was described as

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Speaker 3: being a four foot wide crab with two heads, one

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Speaker 3: head front and one head back and some characteristics of

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Speaker 3: a hippopotamus. I think at least one of the heads

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Speaker 3: is said to be like that of a hippopotamus, and

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Speaker 3: this creature was said to attack a person by eating

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Speaker 3: their shadow. Very interesting. We also talked a bit about

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Speaker 3: the phenomenon of seeing faces in crab bodies, and of

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Speaker 3: course we talked about crab inspired wrestling acts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very briefly, very briefly.

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Speaker 3: And so we're back today to talk crabs once again.

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Speaker 3: So Rob, if you don't mind, I'm going to kick

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Speaker 3: things off today by talking about a weird connection between

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Speaker 3: a type of crab, not necessarily a true crab, not

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Speaker 3: a bracky urine crab, but a crab by common convention

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Speaker 3: as an idea for biomimicry, a sort of steampunk crab machine.

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Speaker 2: Crab war machines. Right. I think this will be exciting

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Speaker 2: for a lot of our listeners because in some areas

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Speaker 2: areas of science fiction particularly sci fi warfare such as

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Speaker 2: your Warhammer forty thousands. You end up you end up

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Speaker 2: with a lot of crab based designs for big or

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Speaker 2: small stalking machines or some sort of mechs that end

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Speaker 2: up looking like crabs, because again, we just were so

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Speaker 2: fascinated with a design, and when we start imagining fantastic

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Speaker 2: machines of war, we think of the crab because it

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Speaker 2: looks like a little machine of war to optize.

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Speaker 3: It looks dangerous, it looks like it means business, and

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Speaker 3: it's yeah, something that maybe one should be afraid of.

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Speaker 3: Something about arthropods generally, and I would say especially crabs,

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Speaker 3: especially you know, decapod crustaceans. It has more of a

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Speaker 3: kind of mechanical joint and piston kind of feeling about

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Speaker 3: it than say mammals or reptiles or birds do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the exoskeleton lends itself well to comparisons to

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Speaker 2: our armor technology, to our tool technology, and then much

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Speaker 2: later on to our automatons in our robots. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so we're gonna let slip the crabs of war

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Speaker 3: and go all the way back to the year eighteen

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Speaker 3: sixty four and talk about an obscure crab inspired proposal

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Speaker 3: for this great mechanism of belligerents called the King Crab Warship.

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Speaker 3: So the text that I want to talk about is

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Speaker 3: a letter appearing in the January thirtieth, eighteen sixty four

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Speaker 3: edition of thus Scientific Americans back when it had the

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Speaker 3: in the Scientific American. This is the ancestor to the

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Speaker 3: publication still called Scientific American today, though in the nineteenth

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Speaker 3: century it was a somewhat different publication. It was a

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Speaker 3: weekly newspaper at the time that was focused less on

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Speaker 3: pure science and more on technology, with a lot of

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Speaker 3: news about recent patents and design improvements for machines.

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Speaker 2: Some more industry centric.

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Speaker 3: I guess yeah. And so this letter in Scientific American

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Speaker 3: comes from a correspondent called c DK, known by initials

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Speaker 3: CDKA in Frankfort, Pennsylvania. CDK begins this letter with a

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Speaker 3: long wind up about how all of the best architectural

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Speaker 3: and mechanical designs are actually prefigured by objects in the

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Speaker 3: natural world, writing quote, perfection is only to be found

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Speaker 3: amongst the numerous specimens of the handiwork of the Great Creator,

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Speaker 3: which he has placed so lavishly around us for our

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Speaker 3: use and instruction, and which we should make the proper

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Speaker 3: application of the lessons which are continually placed before us.

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Speaker 2: Oh so like a religious biomimicry.

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Speaker 3: Okay, very much the tone of this letter, and also

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Speaker 3: something that we'll get more into this in a few minutes,

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Speaker 3: but kind of seem to be in the air at

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Speaker 3: the time. Other examples given by the author include the

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Speaker 3: architectural principle of the arch and how CDK claims this

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Speaker 3: can be observed in the bones of the human skeleton.

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Speaker 3: Also the roots of the oak tree, which CDK says

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Speaker 3: show us the best way to lay the foundations of

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Speaker 3: lighthouses and towers. And then also fossil shells, which show

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Speaker 3: us how to build impenetrable fortifications. A CDK says, quote,

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Speaker 3: and now, when the public mind and the minds of

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Speaker 3: inventors are run wild over the changed system of warfare

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Speaker 3: inaugurated with heavy guns and shot proof vessels, let us

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Speaker 3: see what nature will do for us. She furnishes a

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Speaker 3: model of an engine of war, which, if made of

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Speaker 3: suitable size, could destroy any vessel now afloat, in spite

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Speaker 3: of iron plates, big guns, and almost anything else. I

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Speaker 3: allude to the species of crab l Cyclops, the king

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Speaker 3: crab or horse hoof found on the coast of New Jersey.

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Speaker 3: Now I look this up to make sure I was

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Speaker 3: getting right what kind of animal he is talking about here.

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Speaker 3: I think this has to be a reference to the

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Speaker 3: Atlantic horseshoe crab, which is now known not as l

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Speaker 3: cyclops but by the scientific name Lemulus polyphemus. It was

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Speaker 3: previously known as Lemulus cyclops in some by some people

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Speaker 3: in the past. Of course, Polyphemus is the name of

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Speaker 3: the famous Cyclops from Greek mythology, appearing in the Odyssey.

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Speaker 3: So this is the proposal make a king crab warship

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Speaker 3: inspired by the flawless natural design of the Atlantic horseshoe crab.

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Speaker 3: So before we go on with the letter and the proposal,

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Speaker 3: I think maybe we should do a quick segment on

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Speaker 3: the horseshoe crab, or as CDK calls it, the horse hoof.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the horseshoe crab. To be clear, it's certainly

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Speaker 2: fair game for this podcast series that we're calling it

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Speaker 2: a crab. But we do have to stress again the

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Speaker 2: horseshoe crabs they're not true crabs. They're not even crustaceans.

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Speaker 2: Their arthropod calliserates more closely related to iraqnts, but they're

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Speaker 2: famously weird. If you've had the chance to see one

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Speaker 2: in the wild, you know how bizarre they are, or

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Speaker 2: even if you've just seen the shell, it's phenomenal.

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Speaker 3: We've done whole episodes on them in the past.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think we've talked about their biomedical applications before,

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Speaker 2: which we'll allude to in passing here. But yeah, they're

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Speaker 2: also pretty famous because they're notable living fossils, having existed

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Speaker 2: in the world largely unchanged for at least two hundred

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Speaker 2: million years and existed for something like four hundred and

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Speaker 2: forty five million years. I've also seen three hundred million

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Speaker 2: years thrown out there. Only four living species remain today

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Speaker 2: any way you slice it. Yeah, they've been around for

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Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of years, and they are like a

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Speaker 2: snapshot of the past.

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Speaker 3: My general understanding is that they're thought to go back

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Speaker 3: to the Ordovisian.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, horseshoe crabs have a pretty iconic appearance. They

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Speaker 2: have this broad front shell, this cephalo thorax shell, so

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Speaker 2: it's like the head thorax commind shell with wide spaced eyes.

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Speaker 2: You see them on either side little dimples, and it

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Speaker 2: ends up kind of giving you the look and feel

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Speaker 2: of a helm. You know, we can't help but to

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Speaker 2: compare it to our technology. This portion tapers back to

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Speaker 2: the posterior portion of the shell and then to a

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Speaker 2: spike like tail underneath the protection of their exoskeleton. The

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Speaker 2: exoskeleton is going to be sand colored in juveniles and

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Speaker 2: then this signature brownish green and most adults. Underneath this

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Speaker 2: shell they boast five pairs of jointed legs. And then

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Speaker 2: they spend most of their time rooting around through the

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Speaker 2: sediment for worms and moths. And they can survive outside

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Speaker 2: of the water for extended periods of time, even if

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Speaker 2: their gills stay moist, and they can swim upside down

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Speaker 2: in the water really cool. They do have to crawl

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Speaker 2: up on the sandy beaches to mate and to lay eggs,

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Speaker 2: and this is where most people are going to encounter.

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Speaker 3: Them, and it makes sense, especially if we're talking about

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Speaker 3: the Atlantic horseshoe crab that CDK says, you will have

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Speaker 3: encountered these creatures on the shores of New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We'll get back to their range in just

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Speaker 2: a second. But but yeah, that is, that is, that

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Speaker 2: is where you will find them. My wife's grandmother had

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Speaker 2: a story about encountering horseshoe crebs on the beaches of

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Speaker 2: the Great Outer Banks where according to this tale, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know to what extent this might have been

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Speaker 2: embellished a little bit over the years, as family stories

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Speaker 2: tend to, but she came across these horseshoe crabs on

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Speaker 2: the beach and she thought that they were stuck, that

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Speaker 2: they'd been like washed up, and so she tried to

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Speaker 2: help them out by throwing them all back in the water,

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Speaker 2: and then found out much later on that she'd unwittingly

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Speaker 2: disturbed their mating loops. Yep, but that spike like tail

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Speaker 2: I think is definitely part. Again, the front portion of

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Speaker 2: the horseshoe crab looks like an armored helm, and then

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Speaker 2: we have this what looks like a vicious looking spike

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Speaker 2: in the back. Yeah, this is the the telson, and

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Speaker 2: the telson takes different forms in different arthropods. If you've

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Speaker 2: ever shelled shrimp before, you've encountered a much shorter telson

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Speaker 2: spike amid the fantails. The stinger of a scorpion is

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Speaker 2: technically a telson. Now, the horseshoe crab does have a

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Speaker 2: fearsome looking telson, but this is not a weapon. It

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Speaker 2: is not something it uses to stab self defensively at

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Speaker 2: things messing with it and so forth. It is most

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Speaker 2: The most observable function of this for humans is that

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Speaker 2: it is a self riding tool. If they are flipped

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Speaker 2: on their backs on the beach, you know, exposing their

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Speaker 2: unprotected side, they can use it to flip back over

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Speaker 2: the way they want to be. They will get flipped

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Speaker 2: over in the surf as they're coming out or going

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Speaker 2: back in. It is also useful as a rudder for

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Speaker 2: swimming when in the water. And since the telson, like

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Speaker 2: other parts of their bodies, have photoreceptors on them, it

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Speaker 2: also wouldn't be out of line to think of this

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Speaker 2: as a sensory appendage.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but yeah, that is interesting because CDK, I think

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Speaker 3: is going to allude to the idea that the telson

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Speaker 3: is a weapon. I don't know we can It's kind

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Speaker 3: of hard to tell exactly what he's saying in some

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Speaker 3: parts of this, but I think he thinks it might

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Speaker 3: be a weapon. But yeah, interesting to think that it is.

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Speaker 3: Actually it is a lever primarily for riding the body,

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Speaker 3: and I think also maybe used for steering when swimming

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Speaker 3: in the water.

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Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like a rudder for swimming

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Speaker 2: in the water. Yeah. Now, one thing that it's coming

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Speaker 2: back to the range. It is interesting to note that

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Speaker 2: the four species of horseshoe crabs in the world today,

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Speaker 2: they do enjoy a wide range, but that range does

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Speaker 2: not include the Mediterranean. It's found along the North American

250
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Speaker 2: Atlantic coast and in Asia. So if you look at

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Speaker 2: ancient ridings, you won't find anything about them. And say,

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Speaker 2: plenty of the elder or related European and Mediterranean sources

253
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Speaker 2: out of antiquity Plenty, for instance, does discuss a horse

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Speaker 2: crab that is said to be quite fast, as fast

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Speaker 2: as a horse, But this is not a horseshoe crab.

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes people assume that it's the horseshoe crab,

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Speaker 2: but it's not. Obviously, horseshoe crabs were known to the

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Speaker 2: peoples of ancient Asia and the Americas, and they certainly

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Speaker 2: did observe them and had their own names for them.

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Speaker 2: So the Algonquin people of North America knew them as sikinox.

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Speaker 2: The Japanese referred to them as kabutagani or helmet crabs.

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Speaker 2: Coming back to that, you know, and there seemed to

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Speaker 2: be some Chinese traditions linking the horseshoe crabs or the

264
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Speaker 2: I think they're called the whole to marital fidelity, apparently

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Speaker 2: based on sightings of them mating, if I'm to understanding correctly,

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Speaker 2: there's this idea that it's like you would always see

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Speaker 2: them together. They're two together, and they're together always, which

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Speaker 2: of course isn't actually the case, but you know, it's

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Speaker 2: based on observations that people had, and therefore it becomes

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Speaker 2: the symbol of sticking together for the long term.

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Speaker 3: Like nice to imagine that you're seeing the same ones

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Speaker 3: together over and over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's you know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: essentially a made up story for us, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it's based on observations of the horseshoe crab. I also

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Speaker 2: found it kind of interesting to note that despite the

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Speaker 2: horseshoe crab being quite important in modern medicine for biomedical testing,

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Speaker 2: their blood contains an important clotting agent that reactsively to biotoxins.

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Speaker 2: I think this is something we talked about in an

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Speaker 2: old episode. But despite this, they apparently have little to

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Speaker 2: no presence in traditional Chinese medicine, So I found that

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Speaker 2: kind of kind of interesting. But yeah, coming back to

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00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 2: their design, you can if you look up pictures of

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00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,840
Speaker 2: the horseshoe crab, they do look like weird little biotanks.

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Speaker 2: So I think it makes sense that someone might look

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Speaker 2: to nature and say, okay, who has the best battle armor?

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Speaker 2: What is the best sort of armored shell that could

288
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,480
Speaker 2: exist over some sort of mechanism, And it makes sense

289
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 2: that you might consider the horseshoe crab an option.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think this highlights something interesting, which is

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Speaker 3: that biomimicry is a real principle in engineering and design,

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00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:07,439
Speaker 3: but there's kind of sophisticated biomemicry and then superficial biomemicry.

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Speaker 3: And there is a tendency often to just go by

294
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Speaker 3: what like, something that looks fearsome would therefore be a

295
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,200
Speaker 3: good war machine. But that's not always the case, because

296
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Speaker 3: something that is useful, say at a certain scale with

297
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Speaker 3: the chemistry and you know, the ecology of a small

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Speaker 3: animal might be very effective at that scale for that animal,

299
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Speaker 3: but does not scale up or you know, doesn't work

300
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Speaker 3: with the kinds of materials we would use to make

301
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 3: a warship or you know, or conflicts with ways that

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00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,800
Speaker 3: we would need to control a vehicle or something.

303
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Another area to highlight would be flight, where a

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00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 2: lot of you know, there are a lot of things

305
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:50,160
Speaker 2: to learn about flight from looking at evolved biological methods

306
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,960
Speaker 2: of flight in different animals, but there are also a

307
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,600
Speaker 2: lot of just rough missteps and like, well, okay, these

308
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,399
Speaker 2: look like wings, these feel like wings. Let's have a

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00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 2: run off the top of this barn and see.

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Speaker 3: Or actually, I think a great comparison here is a

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00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,919
Speaker 3: lot of inventors assuming that technological flight would involve the

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00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 3: flapping of wings like we see in basic basically every

313
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,440
Speaker 3: flying organism in birds and insects and stuff. But then

314
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Speaker 3: we learned that actually flapping is not a very efficient

315
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 3: way to you know, degenerate thrust and to for a

316
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 3: machine to fly. It's better to have other methods of

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00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 3: generating forward thrust and having fixed wings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. A lot of the best examples of biomimicry that

319
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 2: we've discussed on the show before they come down to

320
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,879
Speaker 2: subtle interactions, things that are happening at like a material level,

321
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,160
Speaker 2: or things that are happening, you know, specific aerodynamic problems

322
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 2: that occur and so forth, as opposed to like bigger

323
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 2: situations like all right, if you're if you're gonna be

324
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Speaker 2: tough in the animal world, let's translate that into being

325
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 2: tough on the battle.

326
00:18:51,720 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 3: Thing, all right. So to come back to this letter,

327
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 3: CDK here says that an engine of war modeled on

328
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,360
Speaker 3: the Horseshoe Crab could quote destroy any vessel now afloat.

329
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,160
Speaker 3: How do they claim this is going to happen? Well,

330
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 3: the letter reads, quote this creature is provided with almost

331
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 3: everything requisite for a first class RAM ship. And to

332
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 3: this I would invite the attention of scientific men and

333
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 3: naval constructors. I will not enter into a scientific description

334
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 3: of the animal in detail, but I will simply state

335
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,199
Speaker 3: its most prominent features for the purpose specified. And this

336
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,880
Speaker 3: part did have me wondering for a second. Are they

337
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 3: saying that they won't give a detailed description for the

338
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,400
Speaker 3: sake of brevity, or because like the enemy might be reading.

339
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,199
Speaker 3: You know, if certain Crab facts reach the enemy, they

340
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,360
Speaker 3: could make the King Crab warship. First, I think it's

341
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 3: the former, but I was tempted to think the latter.

342
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm excited to find out how something shaped

343
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 2: like a large horseshoe crab is going to ram things.

344
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 3: Well, let's read the rest of the letter. CDK goes

345
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,880
Speaker 3: on quote in shape, it is like a turtle, covered

346
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 3: with a thick shell or armor, and armed with a

347
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 3: sharp stylet or prow. Now that's a little confusing because

348
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 3: maybe I don't know my naval terminology right, but I

349
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,679
Speaker 3: would think prow usually goes at the front of a ship.

350
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,199
Speaker 3: And the style it I think would be referring to

351
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,919
Speaker 3: the telson, right, which is the tail.

352
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the sharp part of the

353
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 2: horseshoe crab. It's hard, and you know, I can't imagine

354
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 2: it ramming anything by going backwards. And I also can't

355
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: imagine it really being a ramming vessel if it's moving forward.

356
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 3: Maybe we're not understanding something about this. Maybe something is

357
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 3: getting lost in the description here. But CDK goes on quote,

358
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,400
Speaker 3: the back of it is brought down wedge shape, which

359
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 3: will enable it to have considerable speed through the wall.

360
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 3: Its propelling power is placed underneath so that its feet

361
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 3: or paddles are hid and are not liable to be injured.

362
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,479
Speaker 3: It has apparatus to lower and raise itself in the

363
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 3: water around the bow, and it is armed with a

364
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 3: row of smaller spikes which would be sure to strike

365
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 3: anything met in its path through the water. A vessel

366
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 3: constructed to contain in itself the above mentioned principles, with

367
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 3: the addition of a telescopic smoke stack and pilot house,

368
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 3: and perhaps a revolving prow, would be really formidable. Manned

369
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 3: with a pilot engineer and fireman, it could attack any

370
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,119
Speaker 3: vessel with impunity, being submerged when in action and showing

371
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 3: nothing but the smoke stack. It could approach a vessel

372
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 3: without being seen. With its great speed and weight. It

373
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 3: could strike a blow with the force of a dozen

374
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 3: swamp angels. A swamp angel here referring to a type

375
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 3: of heavy artillery that was used in the bombardment of Charleston.

376
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 2: Okay, I was imagining something entirely different, but yeah, thing, yeah, yeah,

377
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,439
Speaker 2: we're kind of like, yeah, some swamp angels are just

378
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 2: like literal angels from the swamp covered and some sort

379
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 2: of Spanish moss.

380
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 3: Mermaids or sirens of the swamp with some algae. Anyway,

381
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 3: CDK says, thus utterly demolishing its opponent. If attacked and

382
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: surrounded by boats, it could rise to the surface, spin around,

383
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 3: and scatter its assailants like chips. In fact, under almost

384
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 3: any circumstances, I can see in a monster king crab

385
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 3: admirable means for protection and defense. Signed CDK.

386
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 2: Frankford, Pa, Wow, Well, I love the kaiju sized day

387
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: dreaming involved in this scenario, and I don't know some

388
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: of it, I can, I can get. I mean, certainly

389
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 2: you can admit that if all of these things were

390
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: possible on a machine level, it could be effective. And

391
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: it is you know, he observes that. Okay, you know,

392
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: essentially the legs and underbelly the mechanisms propelling the horseshoe

393
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: crab are protected by the shell. True, And so I

394
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 2: guess you could you could make some sort of an

395
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 2: argument for some sort of a big shell like that

396
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: covering the machinery that propels a ship through the water.

397
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: I don't know.

398
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 3: Well, it kind of makes me wonder if CDK had

399
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: been reading a lot about ancient Mediterranean combat with the

400
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 3: try rems, which did function, and there were still ramming

401
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: attacks in naval tactics at the time of the Civil War.

402
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 3: We can talk about that in it. But you know,

403
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 3: the age of the Tryrem, you would have very much

404
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: a ramming focused naval combat where you know, a ship

405
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 3: is trying to build up speed to ram an opponent

406
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,199
Speaker 3: ship broadside. But then another type of attack that you

407
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 3: would get with the Tryrem would be these ships trying

408
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 3: to come up against another ship and shear off its

409
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 3: ores to you know, make it to prevent it from moving.

410
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 3: So so yeah, maybe that makes me think maybe he's

411
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 3: got similar things in mind, like you got to protect

412
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 3: the oars or the legs he specifies can be either one.

413
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: The ship could have oars or legs. What how would

414
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 3: it have legs? I'm a little a little confused confused there,

415
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 3: maybe like you know, many poles sticking out the bottom

416
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 3: like a pole barge that goes along.

417
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now it is interesting to think though that if

418
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: he is invoking, you know, the ideas of the Trireem

419
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: and so forth, he would be reproducing a pattern we

420
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: see quite a lot in human thought, and that is

421
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: when we try to imagine the future of warfare, we

422
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: often extrapolate things off of the past warfare and not

423
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 2: really on the present nature of warfare. So he would

424
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: not be alone in making that air.

425
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 3: So we'll come back to the specific naval details. But

426
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 3: I do want to, of course mention that despite the

427
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 3: compelling pitch, this was never built. The King Crab Warship

428
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 3: was never realized. I went looking to see if I

429
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: could find anything else about this letter, like any you know,

430
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 3: notice from historians or attempts to put it in context.

431
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 3: But I really couldn't find anything like that. So I

432
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 3: think the King Crab proposal remains a just weird, barely noticed,

433
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 3: obscure little curiosity. It's just a strange little letter hanging

434
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 3: out there in history that never really went anywhere.

435
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: Oh it's kind of a shame because you can really

436
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: catch cdk's excitement here, and you know, I would have

437
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 2: hoped he would at least found one other human out

438
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 2: there in the world that he could share this with.

439
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 3: I really suspect CDK was talking about this a lot. Yeah,

440
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 3: I think it came up. I think it came up

441
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 3: at dinner. I think it came up at work.

442
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

443
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 3: I think there was a lot of this talk.

444
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was probably a significant other that was like,

445
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: you know, you should write to Scientific American about this

446
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 2: insteads just continuing to tell me about it. I think

447
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: someone there might be excited to hear from you.

448
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 3: But this actually leads me to the broader context I

449
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 3: wanted to put this in. So I was reading, I

450
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: was trying to find context for this letter, and like

451
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 3: I said, didn't really find anything. But I did, through

452
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: that quest, end up reading about an interesting phenomenon taking

453
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 3: place during the Civil War, of which this seems to

454
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 3: be one example, which was a kind of frenzied period

455
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 3: of amateur inventors scrambling to talk to anyone who would

456
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 3: listen about their designs for stupendous machines that would win

457
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 3: the war. So one source that was really useful here

458
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 3: is a history book that I found online. You can

459
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 3: read the full text online called Lincoln and the Tools

460
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 3: of War, originally published in nineteen fifty six by University

461
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 3: of Illinois Press by the Pulitzer Prize winning American historian

462
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 3: Robert V. Bruce. Now I haven't read the whole book,

463
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 3: but I read a couple of chapters that discussed the

464
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 3: sort of patent fever that accompanied Lincoln's presidency and the

465
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 3: outbreak of the US Civil War, where many aspiring amateur

466
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: inventors did not seem to be aware of the proper

467
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 3: channels to get their designs noticed, such as contacting the

468
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: Army depart Department of Ordinance. So they would just try

469
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: to get in touch directly with the President. And the

470
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 3: strange thing is, in a lot of cases, Lincoln would

471
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 3: hear them out. Bruce writes, quote, scarcely had parade torches

472
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: gutted out, campaign songs died away, and votes been counted

473
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: in the election which made Abraham Lincoln sixteenth President of

474
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: the United States. When inventors began writing the successful candidate,

475
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: and he gives an example of one such early letter, quote,

476
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 3: it looks like war. I have invented a machine which

477
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: will fire five hundred bullets simultaneously. Write me if you

478
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 3: wish me to explain it to you. And then Bruce

479
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 3: adds that Lincoln jotted a note for his secretary, John

480
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 3: Nikolay across the top of this letter which just said,

481
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: need not answer this. But Bruce has a whole chapter

482
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: in this book called Patent Nonsense, which is focused on

483
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 3: the sheer volume of invention proposals, on what Bruce calls

484
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 3: cranks and dreamers that Lincoln waded through during and before

485
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: the war. I'll just mention a few examples. There was

486
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 3: a general craze at this time from multiple sources and

487
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 3: with different designs for steam powered guns as opposed to

488
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 3: gunpowder powdered guns. Sounds like an interesting idea, but the

489
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 3: problem was that they were usually not an improvement on

490
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: existing technology. I think it was a case of a

491
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 3: solution in search of a problem here, where like you know,

492
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: you had all this like great new innovations in steam

493
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: powered machinery, and people are thinking, we can make this

494
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: make a better gun. But from what I was reading,

495
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 3: the models that were actually built and tested were unreliable

496
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: and produced less muzzle velocity than gunpowder. So actually gunpowder

497
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 3: was already better. It was just people trying to, I think,

498
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 3: take one thing they knew and combine it with a

499
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: use case where it didn't actually work.

500
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, like we're real steampunk inner here though, Well, yes's

501
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: the supply steam to everything.

502
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: Another thing that inventors were going wild for at the

503
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: time of the Civil War was the double cannon or

504
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: the fork This what Bruce calls it is the quote

505
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 3: forked cannon firing chain shot.

506
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: Rob.

507
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 3: I think this has somehow come up on the show before,

508
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: but I don't remember what episode that was.

509
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: Well, let's keep going and maybe it'll maybe I'll remember.

510
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 3: This was an extremely popular suggestion, with seemingly dozens of

511
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: different inventors all writing to Lincoln about this fearful design,

512
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: imagining that they were each the first to think of it.

513
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: To summarize the basic idea, I'll read from Bruce here

514
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: quote from two diverging cannon joined at the breach were

515
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: to be fired two projectiles linked by a chain. As

516
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: the two shots spread apart, the chain between them was

517
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: supposed to snap taut and cut a terrible swathe through

518
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: the rebel ranks. One guy from Connecticut wrote Lincoln not once,

519
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: not twice, but five times about the double cannon idea.

520
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: But this is a great example of you know, when

521
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 3: everybody is having the same great idea and nobody's actually

522
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: using it, there's usually a good reason. And the reason

523
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 3: in this case is it had been tried multiple times

524
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: in the past. It did not usually work as intended,

525
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: in part because you couldn't in part because you couldn't

526
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 3: get the two cannons to fire at exactly the same

527
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 3: time or with the same initial velocity, so you know

528
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: it would go you would go off target or you

529
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: would get kind of malfunctions. The Confederates actually built one

530
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: of these and tested it in Athens, Georgia, and I've

531
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: read there are competing accounts of what happened here. Bruce

532
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: mentions this story that when they fired it, one of

533
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: the guns fired before the other one, and the chain

534
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 3: whipped back around the unfired barrel and killed most of

535
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: the artillery crew. From what I was reading that that

536
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 3: is a I think that is now the less subscribed

537
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: to account of what actually happened. A more subscribe to

538
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 3: account that I was reading instead says that both barrels fired,

539
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: but the contraption could not be aimed effectively and the

540
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: chain snapped, so both balls and chain flew off target,

541
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: accidentally smashing a chimney and killing a cow in a

542
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 3: nearby field.

543
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: Hmm. Wow. It's certainly a brutal idea for a weapon,

544
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: and I cannot help but wonder how much of it

545
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: is thinking about what the technology can do to improve

546
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 2: the nature of warfare, and how much of it is

547
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 2: just kind of like almost a reflection on just how

548
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: nasty and brutal modern warfare had become, and just sort

549
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: of like turning that back on technology and maybe in

550
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: an almost subconscious way, thinking well, how could what else

551
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: can we do in the spirit of how awful warfare

552
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: is at this present moment.

553
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: This one does feel to me less like the steam

554
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 3: powered gun idea. Feels like somebody is somewhat familiar with

555
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: steam technology and steam mechanisms and they're just trying to

556
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 3: apply it to a different domain. They're like, oh, now

557
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: there's a need for new war technology. Can we apply

558
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: steam to that? Yeah, this one, the double cannon, feels

559
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: more like the way people would dream up like horror

560
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 3: movie scripts, like you know, like you're writing, you know,

561
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: saw scripts, trying to think up new grizzly ideas of

562
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: things that could happen to people.

563
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

564
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: One last example here from the dreamers category, Lincoln got

565
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 3: a bunch of letters from a machinist named Edward Tippett

566
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: who kept writing to him about designs for a mighty

567
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 3: battle balloon, which we laugh at, but that will come

568
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: back to that. That's actually not a bad idea in principle,

569
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 3: and Lincoln did use a form of balloons.

570
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: But nobody ever called them battle balloons. No.

571
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: The letters from this guy also contained a lot of

572
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 3: theological warnings and obscure references to the Bible. So just

573
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: some quotes from his letters. You must have my balloon

574
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: to put down all four and foes. I again warn

575
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 3: you against secret enemies. Watch well, and you will find

576
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: the golden wedge and the Achan too. Bruce thinks the

577
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: Achen here is a reference to a story in Joshua

578
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: chapter seven, where an Israelite named Achan is punished for

579
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: stealing spoils of war after the fall of Jericho. I

580
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: couldn't piece together all of the elements of this, but

581
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: finally later this letter says, I say, you cannot conquer

582
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 3: without my navigating balloon. That said. In this book, Bruce

583
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: describes how Lincoln had a real appetite for hearing from inventors.

584
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 3: Like it wasn't just like all these people are bombarding

585
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: him with ideas and annoying him. Even though a lot

586
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: of these ideas turned out to be useless or impractical,

587
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: some of them are just outright crankery. Lincoln kept hearing

588
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 3: inventors out, he would read their letters, he would invite

589
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 3: them to the White House to give demonstrations, and Bruce

590
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: gives several reasons for this. One is Lincoln's firm belief

591
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: that technological advantage could help win the war, so he

592
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: thought that new inventions would be critical for overall victory.

593
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: The second thing is Lincoln's personal interest in all things mechanical.

594
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 3: He was a bit of an engineering nerd, and in

595
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 3: fact was the only US president to actually have taken

596
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: out a patent himself. He patented a device that was

597
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 3: used to lift riverboats over shoals and sandbars, like had

598
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 3: these inflatable bellows on the side, so if your riverboat

599
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 3: runs in the shallows, you can inflate the bellows and

600
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 3: get over them. And then also there's something that kind

601
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 3: of comes through in this chapter, which is Lincoln having

602
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 3: a bit of a tolerance and sometimes even an affectionate

603
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 3: amusement at pitches that turned out to be dead end

604
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: fantasies I would say, like the King Crab, though there

605
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 3: is no evidence Lincoln ever encountered or considered the King

606
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 3: Crab warship idea. But I do want to emphasize that

607
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 3: Lincoln's tolerance dealing with nonsense from amateur inventors was not

608
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: just because he found it amusing. There's a bit of

609
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 3: amusement you can read between the lines here, But the

610
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 3: main thrust, at least according to Bruce, is that he

611
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 3: was desperate to win the war as fast as possible

612
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 3: and thought, to some degree correctly, that new inventions would

613
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: bring about that end, and there are some examples where

614
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: that proved correct. One commonly cited example is the Spencer

615
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 3: repeating rifle, which is a seven shot lever action rifle

616
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 3: that Lincoln tried out at the White House after meeting

617
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: its inventor, Christopher Spencer, in eighteen sixty three. Lincoln was

618
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: very impressed, and he advocated its use by the Union Army,

619
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 3: even overruling some initial resistance from the Department of Ordnance leadership,

620
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: and it is thought by some historians that this rifle

621
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: made a big difference. It significantly increased the firing rate

622
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 3: of the Union cavalry and gave them a distinct advantage

623
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 3: on the battlefield. Another example, I told you I'd come

624
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 3: back to balloons, despite the fact that Tippetts you cannot

625
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 3: conquer without my balloon. Pitch went nowhere. Lincoln actually did

626
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: personally push for the Union to use hot air balloons

627
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: for aerial reconnaissance, and this was after he was impressed

628
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: by a demonstration from an inventor and aeronaut named Thaddeus

629
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 3: Lowe in eighteen sixty one, during at least one of

630
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 3: these demonstrations. I don't know how many there were, There

631
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 3: might have just been one, but at one of these demonstrations,

632
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 3: Lowe famously sent Lincoln a telegraph via wire from hundreds

633
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 3: of feet up in the air describing what he could

634
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 3: see from above. You can easily imagine how that would

635
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: be incredibly important in gathering intelligence at the time.

636
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course airships and balloons would continue to

637
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 2: be very important in warfare, you know, over the decades

638
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: to come.

639
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, So how does this come back to the

640
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: King Crab and naval designs? Well, As I said, the

641
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 3: exact design of the King Crab warship was never used,

642
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: but the basic idea of a submersible or semi submersible

643
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: ship that would attack by ramming was actually used in

644
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 3: the US Civil War. Maybe a lot of people don't

645
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 3: know this, but there were several basically submarines or semi

646
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: submersible ships. Several of these were used by the Confederacy.

647
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 3: Though there ramming attack was not like the trirems of

648
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: the ancient Mediterranean, which would again those would ram each

649
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 3: other broadside with a kind with an you know, a

650
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: kind of thing sticking out of the front of the

651
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 3: ship I think usually called a ram. The ramming attacks

652
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 3: of Civil War submersibles involved hitting enemy vessels with a

653
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 3: mounted torpedo. So imagine it's just a big spike with

654
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: explosives on the end. I think this is sometimes called

655
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 3: a torpedo spar.

656
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. And also this is just this is the age

657
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: of the ironclad ships as well, so right, yeah, you

658
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: know very much. The idea of what if a ship

659
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: had an exoskeleton, how effective would that be?

660
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: Yeah? Very I mean again, you can imagine to what

661
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 3: extent that was or was not inspired by crabs or

662
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,959
Speaker 3: Arthur buds generally, I don't know, but yeah, plating putting

663
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 3: iron plating around a ship that that was also not

664
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: just submersibles, but you know, but top floating ships. That

665
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 3: was used in the Civil War as well. The Union

666
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: Army actually did develop some submersible technology, so they developed

667
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 3: a forty seven foot long iron submersible with an animal name.

668
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 3: Though it was not called the King Crab, it was

669
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: called the USS Alligator. Launched in eighteen sixty two, It

670
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 3: was based on an earlier design by a French inventor

671
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: named Brutus de Villeroi, and in its final form, the

672
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 3: Alligator was powered by a small propeller at the stern,

673
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 3: not by legs or ores like the King Crab describes.

674
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: But though actually an earlier version of the USS Alligator

675
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 3: design did have oars, it was powered by ores operated

676
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 3: by the crew from inside. But it turns out ores

677
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 3: don't worked very well for underwater vessels. I mean, they

678
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 3: can kind of work, but propellers are more efficient in

679
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 3: underwater vessels, so the propeller was added swapped out for

680
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: the oars. The propeller was rotated by a hand powered

681
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: crank operated by the crew inside. Air was supplied by

682
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 3: tubes that were attached to floats that went to the surface,

683
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: and there was an air pump, so these floats would

684
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 3: follow along with the ship at the surface and allow

685
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 3: gas exchange. Something about that feels tenuous and scary. I

686
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: guess all of this does, because it, you know, eighteen

687
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 3: sixty submersible. Apparently, light was provided by glass plates at

688
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: the top of the hull, and the Alligator was put

689
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 3: into service for a brief time, and the US Navy

690
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 3: had various plans for it, like they talked about potentially

691
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 3: using it to attack bridges or blockade runner ships. But

692
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: before it could do very much, it was lost at

693
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: sea off the coast of North Carolina during bad weather

694
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 3: in eighteen sixty three, So exactly a King Crab in design,

695
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: but sharing some characteristics with the proposal, though of course

696
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 3: this had already been built at the time this letter

697
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: came into Scientific American.

698
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also just kind of an interesting snapshot of marine

699
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 2: warfare to come.

700
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'll say final verdict from me, the King

701
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 3: Crab warship. Maybe not a practical design, but I admire

702
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 3: the spirit the actual Atlantic horseshoe crab. Very good design.

703
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 3: Thumbs up, thumbs up. Evolution.

704
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: All right, Well, you know we mentioned how in one

705
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: of the previous episodes we did talk about crabs and

706
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 2: demonology to a certain extent. I want to come back

707
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 2: to that again, at least in a limited fashion, before

708
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: getting into another more prominent topic. But yeah, I was

709
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: looking around and I found a source from eighteen seventies,

710
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: so another older source here. This was titled The Folklore

711
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 2: of China by Nicholas Bellfield. I'm sorry, Nicholas Bellfield Denny's,

712
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 2: and it regarded this one little snippet, one little place

713
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: in the book concerned crabs and exorcisms among the people

714
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 2: in the southeastern Chinese province of Fujin. According to the author,

715
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: shortly before a child's birth, priests would attempt to scare

716
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: away demons that might harm the child during birth. So

717
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: I'm just going to read a snippet from this again,

718
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: again stressing that this isn't an older text, and I

719
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: couldn't find much. I couldn't find anything about this. It's

720
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: more contemporary. But according to this text quote, ten or

721
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 2: twenty pieces of a kind of grass, cut up about

722
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,959
Speaker 2: an inch long, and several likenesses of the crab cut

723
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: out of common paper are put into censor and burned,

724
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 2: or sometimes several live crabs, after being used in this

725
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: ceremony are taken and turned into the street by way

726
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: of frightening or propitiating the spirits. The reason why crabs

727
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 2: are used is that the name of one of these

728
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: demons sounds like that of crab in the local dialect.

729
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 3: Now wait a minute, I'm a little confused here. Based

730
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 3: on the description, are the crabs the thing that are

731
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 3: the things that are being exercised to protect the mother

732
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 3: and the child, or are the crabs doing the protecting.

733
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 2: If I'm understanding this correctly, I think it's the idea

734
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: that there's just the idea of the crab is a

735
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: counter to the demon, because the demon's name sounds like crab. Okay, well,

736
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: it's almost like a mocking. I'm again I don't completely

737
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: understand it, but given that it's crab based exorcism, I

738
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 2: had to at least mention it.

739
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 3: That's interesting. But so in one form you would burn

740
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 3: an effigy of the crab, but in another form you

741
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: would release the crabs too into the streets, swarm the

742
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 3: street in front of your house to provide protection, or

743
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 3: scare the spirits.

744
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess again. I couldn't find much in the

745
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 2: way of recent sources on this, outside of some some

746
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 2: crab statues being sold online as Finchwei exorcism animals, though

747
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: I believe that in general, within fin Schwei and elsewhere

748
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: in Chinese culture, crabs are primarily symbols of wealth and advancement,

749
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: and in fact, if you look around, they are sometimes

750
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: depicted as holding aloft a coin or another treasure in

751
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: a very similar fashion to what we discussed previously with

752
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: the crab holding up the crucifix or some sort of

753
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 2: a you know, a Buddhist treasure.

754
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 3: Wow, so you've got an image in the outline here

755
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 3: of a crab holding up a coin. This, this is

756
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: a Chinese artifact here, Yes, okay, the posture is exactly

757
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 3: the same as that a seventeenth century or maybe it

758
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: was eighteenth century, I don't remember. The silver sculpture of

759
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 3: the crab holding the crucifix. I, you know, could just

760
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: be coincidence, But I wonder if one is inspired by

761
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 3: the other. Could the Catholic crab imagery have been inspired

762
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 3: by traditional China imagery.

763
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: It seems possible or certainly that both of these images

764
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: are speaking to a longer tradition of having a crab

765
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: hold up some sort of a treasure. Yeah. And then

766
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: also more common within Chinese iconography is the image of

767
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 2: the crab setting upon a bed of coins, almost like

768
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: a dragon in its layer. I think one thing I

769
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: think we touched on this as well. But one thing

770
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: to keep in mind is that when we look at

771
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: a crab's there is the observation of what a crab

772
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: does with its body, certainly, but there We also can't

773
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 2: help but to imagine what would we do. What would

774
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: a human do with a crab's body if we could,

775
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: we would do things like hold coins, grab coins and

776
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: hold them aloft, that sort of thing.

777
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the become an arthropods symbol of your own greed yep, cliff. Yeah.

778
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: So for more answers on this, I was fortunate enough

779
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 2: to find a full paper from Frontiers and Marine Science

780
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: than twenty twenty five by Yan and Zang titled the

781
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: Connotation of Chinese Crab Culture a Comprehensive Review from the

782
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 2: perspectives of Literature, Art and diet. So this paper is

783
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: pretty fun. It's a great breakdown of crab culture. That's

784
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: the term they use in China across numerous dynasties, so

785
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: covering a huge stretch of time. And they stress that

786
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 2: of course you can't ignore the fact that crabs are delicious,

787
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 2: and then on top of them just being delicious, they

788
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: hold not only this practical value but also significant theoretical value. Again,

789
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: we can't help but look at the crab and imagine

790
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 2: things related to the crab. What would we do if

791
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: we were a crab? What does the crab say about us?

792
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: And so forth. So they quote numerous bits of old

793
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: Chinese poetry, and a lot of these are first and

794
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: foremost talking about how delicious crab meat is, but then

795
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: in doing so also talking about how novel the creature

796
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: are to look at. I'm gonna read this is a

797
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: This is a snippet from the paper that quote the quote.

798
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: The quotes a poem as well. They say, Zoo Way,

799
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: a famous writer and painter in the Ming dynasty, once

800
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: wrote a poem which reads as follows. In the village

801
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 2: alongside rivers, the crabs are plump. When the rice is ripe,

802
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: the two kilipet of the crabs stand up like a

803
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: halbard in the green mud of the paddy field. If

804
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 2: you turn them over, you see a round and bulging

805
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: navel like dong Zou's belly button. And that's the end

806
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: of the poem. But then the authors continue while praising

807
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: the fatness of crab meat. This poem also uses metaphor

808
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: to satirize Dongzhou, a tyrannical trader. Naturally, this kind of

809
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: direct metaphor with the appearance characteristics of crab is slightly shallow.

810
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: But they go on to decite other poems as well,

811
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: where there is like the main point tends to be

812
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: man crab meat is so delicious, or there's more than

813
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: one where it's like crab meat and wine. What a

814
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: great comba.

815
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 3: This makes me think about how the I mean this

816
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 3: might be obvious, but about how the connotations of comparing

817
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 3: a person to a particular animal or not culturally universal,

818
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: So like comparing a person to a dog or a

819
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 3: pig in one culture might have very different connotations than

820
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 3: in another culture. And I have basically no cultural context

821
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 3: for comparing a person to a crab? What does that

822
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: mean at all?

823
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I have yet. This would be a

824
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 2: great opportunity for listeners out there, but I can't think

825
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: of any examples where that I've ever heard where a

826
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 2: person is directly compared to a crab in a favorable way. Now, again,

827
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 2: we are discussing, and we'll be discussing a prime example

828
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: of a crab as a positive totem, as a as

829
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: a as an icon of good luck. And that's one thing.

830
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 2: But in terms of saying, hey, you're being a crab,

831
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: or you are like a crab, or that person is

832
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 2: like a crab, I don't know if I've ever heard

833
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 2: it with a real with a with a strong positive

834
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: framing to it.

835
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't know how to take the crab's

836
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 3: navel is like this tyrannical trader's belly button.

837
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it sounds like they're mocking a someone

838
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: who's considered a batty in an enemy. Yeah. But they

839
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: they also cite a legend. The authors here side a

840
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: legend regarding the first consumption of crab. There's talk about

841
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: how well crabs are fearsome, So the first people to

842
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: eat the crab meat, they had to have been warriors.

843
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: They had have been mighty, because who would think to

844
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: do this? Who would think to rise up against the crabs?

845
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: But they cited a legend regarding the originator of eating crabs,

846
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: and they say that it was said to have been

847
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: a flood manager named Baja working for the legendary engineer

848
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: you the Great, who we've talked about on the show before,

849
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: very much a cultural hero, you know, someone who steals

850
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: the or acquires the supernatural soil to aid in flood management.

851
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: And then one of his essentially underlings is the first

852
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 2: to boil a crab, smell the aroma and say this

853
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: just seems pretty good. And then eat it and then

854
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: pass that wisdom on to people as well. So I

855
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: guess maybe the idea here is that, like, you know,

856
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: realizing you can eat crabs is almost kind of like

857
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: a great cultural achievement on par with flood management.

858
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 3: This just reminds me. I'm having a hazy memory of

859
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 3: another Chinese folk character we've talked about on the show

860
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: before who is famous for figuring out what foods are

861
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 3: good to eat.

862
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you're thinking of Shinong the Oh yeah, yeah.

863
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: The legend goes, you know, tried every orb, basically tried

864
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: all these different poisons, even in order to determine what

865
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: is good and what is usable and so forth.

866
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 3: Okay, but here we have the seafood focused version of that,

867
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 3: or at least not trying all of them, but at

868
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 3: least trying the crab.

869
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

870
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 3: It looks a little scary at first, but it is good.

871
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And apparently there's a there's a park in

872
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 2: Kunshan City in China that is that is named for

873
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: this figure, and it has a number of different statues

874
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 2: of crabs. This is mentioned in the article, and they

875
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: include some photographs which I reproduce for you here. Joe

876
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: in our notes. Uh, and you can see there's one

877
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,399
Speaker 2: that has a child, either a large child or well,

878
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 2: either a small child or a large crab. But there

879
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 2: is a it is a large statue of a crab

880
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 2: with a child on its back.

881
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 3: Adorable.

882
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 2: And then there here is another giant heap of coins

883
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: and a crab is on top of that pile of coins,

884
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: again like a like a Western dragon.

885
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. So uh the crab has this recurring association with

886
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 3: with riches and abundance.

887
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,919
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, And so I dug into that a little

888
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 2: bit to term to determine like where does that come from?

889
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: And uh, Basically the crab wealth connection comes down to

890
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 2: some of the crab's symbolic characteristics and also another classic

891
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: Chinese homophone, you know, words that sound the same but

892
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 2: have unrelated meanings. So the shell of a crab is ja,

893
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: which also means if it would mean if I was

894
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: one hundred percent pronouncing it correctly, and I am probably not,

895
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: But it means number one with or you know, top performing,

896
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 2: but with special connotations regarding the old Imperial examination ranking system.

897
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 3: Oh okay, number one, best of the best.

898
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 2: Right right, So the crab shell and also you know,

899
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: ranking number one in something. These ideas are closely ranked

900
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 2: symbolically linked via language, and then you have some other

901
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 2: things in play too. So the crab has an auspicious

902
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: number of legs eight and it's there also is this

903
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 2: idea that it's sideways walking has business success connotations concerning

904
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: easy money or side fortunes.

905
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 3: This is that like making money on the side or.

906
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like hinkai, I think, And I think sometimes

907
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: that has very negative connotations, like you're running a scam

908
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: or it's ill gotten gains. But I think depending on

909
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: how it's used, it can also mean things that are

910
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: that are certainly legal and above board, but are also

911
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 2: kind of like a matter of luck, you know, coming

912
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 2: down to good fortune in business, things outside of your control.

913
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: And I guess lateral movement. And then yeah, and then

914
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: the big one too is that this comes back to

915
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: what we were saying earlier. Just crab claws look like things

916
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: that could hold onto coins. They could grab coins and

917
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: then hold on to them. And also coming down to

918
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: just the nature of the crab, knowing that you know,

919
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 2: a crab can be a little fighty if cornered the

920
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: flighty or fighty there, they can be a little intimidating.

921
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: They can appear to stand their ground, so we can

922
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 2: imagine them saying, no, that's my coin and I'm not

923
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: going to let it go.

924
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can see all of that. And I don't know,

925
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 3: this might have gone past me. But if we didn't clarify,

926
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: why is it that, in addition to having the tequila

927
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 3: or that the two claws, it has eight legs? Why

928
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 3: would eight be auspicious that generally the number eight is

929
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 3: thought of as lucky in Chinese culture? Correct?

930
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's like all these things kind of

931
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: coming together with the crab, and I think again also

932
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 2: just the huge factor that crabs are amusing to look at.

933
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 2: If the crab wasn't so entertaining in and out itself,

934
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: we wouldn't heap on all of these ideas.

935
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 3: Well, Rob, I think we need to wrap up part

936
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 3: three of the crab Bag there, but this has been

937
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 3: yet another enjoyable and enlightening episode. So, folks at home,

938
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,240
Speaker 3: I hope you will join us for crab Bag number

939
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:36,280
Speaker 3: four on Thursday.

940
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in the meantime, go ahead and write in.

941
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear. I'd love to hear from anyone

942
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: out there who can speak more to the crab as

943
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 2: a symbol of business, luck and good fortune in Chinese cultures. Yeah,

944
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 2: if you have some personal examples or observations of that

945
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: right in, send your photos. We would love to hear

946
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: from you.

947
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 3: Also, if there is some really significant way that crabs

948
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 3: feature in your culture, something interesting about crabs where you

949
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 3: live that we haven't talked about yet, send it on

950
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 3: our way let us know.

951
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what is your favorite sci fi crab based

952
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: war machine? Also fair game and I know some of

953
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: you will write in about that for sure. Just a

954
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 2: reminder to everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your

955
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core

956
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: episodes in Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays

957
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: and on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns to

958
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 2: just talk about a weird film on weird House Cinema.

959
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,399
Speaker 2: Stuff to blil Your Mind has been around for years

960
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 2: and years. At this point, we are new to Netflix, however,

961
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: so there are only so many episodes that you'll find

962
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: in a visual form on Netflix. The rest are going

963
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: to be in audio form wherever you get your audio podcasts,

964
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 2: and you can find pretty extensive archive there.

965
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: That's right, and it's the same show. By the way,

966
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 3: just in case people are wondering, the version that we're

967
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 3: putting out on Netflix is just the video version of

968
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 3: the audio podcast that we release at the same time

969
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 3: in audio feed. So yeah, if you have a found

970
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 3: us in one on one platform and you want to

971
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 3: check us out on the other, go for it. Absolutely huge,

972
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 3: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

973
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

974
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

975
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

976
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

977
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

978
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,319
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979
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,160
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980
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:50,560
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