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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 3: We are on iHeartRadio and we are talking true crime

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Speaker 3: all the time. It's Sunday, November ninth, and Stephanie is out,

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Speaker 3: but luckily it is Scientific Sunday, so we are joined

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Speaker 3: by our absolute favorite forensic investigator who at this point

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Speaker 3: needs no introduction but deserves the biggest one. We have

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Speaker 3: hosts of the hit podcast Bodybags, Professor Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: How are you this evening?

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Speaker 4: Hi there, it's going to be with you guys. Tonight

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Speaker 4: my favorite night of the week because it is Scientific

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Speaker 4: Sunday and I am with me pals. Good to be

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Speaker 4: here with you.

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Speaker 5: We are so glad that you are here and we

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Speaker 5: can hear you and you sound good.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, there we go. Well, listen, we have a modern.

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Speaker 3: Modern electronics are are quite an amazing thing. Also amazing

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Speaker 3: is tonight we have an absolutely stacked night of headlines.

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Speaker 3: So listen, We're going to be getting into more of

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Speaker 3: the news that happened over the weekend in detail tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: but we want to take a moment.

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Speaker 2: To update just a couple of things.

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Speaker 3: All of the reported missing victims in the ups plane

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Speaker 3: crash that happened near Louisville Airport they have been found.

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Speaker 3: The total number of fatalities is fourteen people. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: and we'll some more details.

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Speaker 5: I saw some you know, alternate views of the crash

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Speaker 5: that were posted, you know, like different people that had

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Speaker 5: filmed it. Man, I'm surprised it's not more. I mean,

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Speaker 5: this it's tragic what happened. But man, this was a

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Speaker 5: fireball and it took out buildings like hangars and stuff

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Speaker 5: you know that people were in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very soon. It was really really intense. So we

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Speaker 3: will have more details on that tomorrow. Plus Sean de

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Speaker 3: dey Coombs. He was allegedly spotted drinking homemade prison alcohol,

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Speaker 3: little thing called hooch, and we will get into those

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Speaker 3: details this week as well. But tonight we have an

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Speaker 3: awful lot on our plate. We're going to be unpacking

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Speaker 3: the It's pretty wild. This murder child that's going on

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Speaker 3: in Las Vegas. Okay, get this. A man has allegedly

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Speaker 3: been decapitated by his ex girlfriend who is now married

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Speaker 3: to his son.

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Speaker 2: So we'll have the.

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Speaker 3: Details of that and there must be a little something

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Speaker 3: in the water, I'm not sure, because we have a

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Speaker 3: second decapitation story this evening, and that took place in Staten,

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Speaker 3: Alan last month, and Joseph Scott Morgan will be breaking

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Speaker 3: down the forensics of that scene.

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Speaker 2: They're a little.

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Speaker 3: Intense understatement, and later in the show, Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 3: Professor Morgan Professor will use his title and will be

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Speaker 3: teaching us all about how forensic investigators analyzed blood spatter

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Speaker 3: and will break down how it applies to a new

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Speaker 3: massive forensic dump in the Idaho student murder case.

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Speaker 2: Right, So it's a full it's a full.

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Speaker 3: Dog at tonight. Body, why don't you start us off

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Speaker 3: with what's going on in Las Vegas?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, my little area of the country. You know, we

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Speaker 5: got this trial going on. It's and it's making a

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Speaker 5: lot of headlines. It's making it's pretty insane. So this

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Speaker 5: is the murder trial of forty seven year old Las

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Speaker 5: Vegas person Devin Michaels. She's the accused person. She's she's

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Speaker 5: accused of decapitating her forty six year old boyfriend, Jonathan

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Speaker 5: will Lett. All right, and the trial has started and

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Speaker 5: entering its second week. Prosecutors alleged Devin killed Jonathan, the

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Speaker 5: father of her two biological children, by the way, so

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Speaker 5: she's got two kids with this guy and twenty nine

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Speaker 5: year old Devier will Let so she could continue a

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Speaker 5: life with Devier, the son, the son of devil of God.

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Speaker 5: There's so many names in this, the son of Jonathan. Okay,

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Speaker 5: So she's she's secretly dating basically her son's boyfriend, and

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Speaker 5: she kills her boyfriend so that her and the son

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Speaker 5: can live a life. And it's it's pretty crazy. So

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Speaker 5: she initially she pled guilty to this crime. Oh and

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Speaker 5: then she started kind of saying, no, I didn't do this,

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Speaker 5: it wasn't me, and the judge kind of like took

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Speaker 5: pity on her let her withdraw her plea. So now

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Speaker 5: she's entered. So now she's entered this not guilty plea

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Speaker 5: because she recanted and she claims her innocence, and her

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Speaker 5: defense argues that Devier, her now her step son now

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Speaker 5: turned husband, could have done the murder. So she's turning

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Speaker 5: her back on her new husband, which is the son

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Speaker 5: of the acute the victim, and now her husband and

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Speaker 5: saying he us have done it. It's kind of a

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Speaker 5: why she was crying in court. It was it was wild.

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Speaker 5: It was wild.

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Speaker 6: Let me clarify because it's absolutely insane. This woman started

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Speaker 6: dating and Jonathan Jonathan is her peer. While she was

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Speaker 6: dating Jonathan, he had a nineteen year old son from

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Speaker 6: a previous relationship. And while this nineteen year old son

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Speaker 6: was just like around her his father's relationship, she started

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Speaker 6: dating him and they started having an intimate relationship while

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Speaker 6: she was in a relationship with his father, and this

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Speaker 6: was completely secret. He didn't like, the father didn't know

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Speaker 6: right cut to now more recently they get married.

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Speaker 5: Yep, but he they're.

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Speaker 6: Claiming that this relationship between Devin, who's the accused, and

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Speaker 6: the son was for like medical insurance purposes, tax reasons whatever.

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Speaker 6: But everyone's kind of like, well, we saw the receipts.

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Speaker 6: We saw that you guys were like sending intimate photos

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Speaker 6: to each other when he was nineteen and you were

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Speaker 6: years older than him.

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Speaker 5: So it's just a whole it is a whole bidness.

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Speaker 5: So they alleged Devon she's the accused of killing Jonathan

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Speaker 5: on the seventh of August, and then They arrested her

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Speaker 5: one week later on August fifteenth, after discovering evidence that

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Speaker 5: leaned her to the scene. Prosecutors are claiming that Devlin

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Speaker 5: beat Jonathan with a wooden stick, decapitated him, and poured

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Speaker 5: bleach and ammonia on his body to destroy evidence. Jonathan's

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Speaker 5: head has not been recovered and is believed to have

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Speaker 5: been thrown in like a trash bin and picked up

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Speaker 5: by garbage services like, oh my gosh, terrible. So she

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Speaker 5: shared two daughters under the age of thirteen with this victory.

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Speaker 5: By the way, so she has two kids with this guy.

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Speaker 5: But again, as you pointed out, she later married Jonathan's son, Debiere.

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Speaker 5: It's and now she's saying he did it. And now

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Speaker 5: she's saying he did it. But when investigators arrived on scene,

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Speaker 5: they said that the body of our of the victim here, Jonathan,

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Speaker 5: was like smoking. And since we have Joseph here, it

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Speaker 5: would be very remiss of me not to ask him.

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Speaker 5: Have you ever seen anything like this, Joseph, where a

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Speaker 5: body was smoking from these chemicals?

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Speaker 4: Well, let's see, have I ever seen it smoking? Well?

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Speaker 4: Spoken as a result, no, no, no, Now being in

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Speaker 4: all serious, where you have an application to the body

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Speaker 4: of a chemical mixture. Now we'll tell you this. From

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Speaker 4: what I'm understanding, the mixture base is essentially bleach chlorine, okay,

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Speaker 4: as as well as ammonia. Now that in and of itself,

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Speaker 4: just so that people understand, if you've ever heard of

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Speaker 4: chlorine gas, yes, chloramine. Chloramine is what this creates. H

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Speaker 4: and it does burn within the body. So the gas

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Speaker 4: itself when you this mixture, when you you will, like

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Speaker 4: I've seen people that have been around this event. We've

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Speaker 4: done dissections of the airway and you can see these

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Speaker 4: changes on the meucoid surfaces of the lungs the airway.

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Speaker 4: It's a horrible way to die. My suspicion is is

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Speaker 4: that she was throwing a bunch of stuff against the

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Speaker 4: wall here. I would like if there were other well, yeah,

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Speaker 4: what other elements we're in here other than what we're

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Speaker 4: hearing about the chlorine and the ammonia, And to find

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Speaker 4: out there was something else. I've never seen it. I've

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Speaker 4: actually been exposed to the gas actually in an accident

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Speaker 4: of laboratory years ago, and it's horrible. But I would

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Speaker 4: like to know if there's another element here that's generating

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Speaker 4: what they're referring to as smokes coming off of the body,

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Speaker 4: just to kind of understand that. I'm hoping that during

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Speaker 4: the course of the trial that we might hear from

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Speaker 4: maybe an arson person or at least somebody in drug

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Speaker 4: chemistry to give us a tider picture. I'm hoping they

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Speaker 4: sampled all of this out there and took those samples,

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Speaker 4: because that's one of the most important things we do.

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Speaker 5: At to seem sure that's right.

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Speaker 3: This is true crime tonight, We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong,

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Speaker 3: so lucky to be here with my buddy Boddy move

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Speaker 3: In and forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. And I

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Speaker 3: forgot to say earlier that producer Taha is also oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: how hard yes, And so in his place is associate

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Speaker 3: producer Avia Kaplan, who weighed in with some of the

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Speaker 3: details earlier.

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Speaker 2: So that is that is the lay of the land here.

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Speaker 3: But Joseph, speaking of the lay of the land, it's

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Speaker 3: obviously so important, as you said, to gather everything in

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Speaker 3: the immediacy of the crime scene, because once it's gone,

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Speaker 3: it's gone. Do people in your experience have you witnessed

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Speaker 3: people trying to use sort of a hodgepodge of whatever

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Speaker 3: they have in the house, and this case lags pneumonia

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Speaker 3: to try and think we'll get rid of it or

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Speaker 3: what would cross process?

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Speaker 5: Really good question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. People will and it's that's

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Speaker 4: a very and I think that goes without saying. Anybody's

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Speaker 4: got a brain in their head knows that it's not

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Speaker 4: safe some of these some of these, some of these

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Speaker 4: elements just stand alone are not safe to have. But

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Speaker 4: when proportionally, when you start mixing these things together, you're

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Speaker 4: going to get a very nasty stew perhaps. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I've seen this happen before. I've seen people try to

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Speaker 4: dissolve bodies with acid, and of course people use lime

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Speaker 4: when they're burying bodies many times because they think that

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Speaker 4: that speeds the process of breaking a body down. They

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Speaker 4: also think that it retards the smell as well, and

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Speaker 4: so you will see that. So yeah, I've seen any

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Speaker 4: number of these cases where people try to essentially make

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Speaker 4: the body vanish everything from chemicals to uh, the train

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Speaker 4: saws to you know, to fire. So yeah, and people

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Speaker 4: want to finish much distance as they can. They the

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Speaker 4: problem is because they just they come ill prepared they

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Speaker 4: don't understand well where we really catch them.

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Speaker 5: This is kind of a weird coincidence, but when I

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Speaker 5: was a senior in high school, a chlorine like somebody

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Speaker 5: one of the students built like a chlorine bomb. This

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Speaker 5: happened in nineteen ninety one at Dane Hills High School

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Speaker 5: where I went to high school. And if you're out

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Speaker 5: there listening, you remember this. And everyone got evacuated and

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Speaker 5: the whole mech teacher, I'll never forget. She permanently ruined

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Speaker 5: her vocal cords. Like this is no joke, Like her

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Speaker 5: vocal cords were permanently ruined. She took like a whole

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Speaker 5: semester off because it was terrible, And when she came back,

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Speaker 5: she had to have a little microphone so that her

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Speaker 5: students could hear her. She came back, that's it's terrible,

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Speaker 5: absolutely terrible. So I know exactly what you're talking about,

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Speaker 5: this smoke, because I experienced it, Like thank god, I

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Speaker 5: you know, I wasn't around, but I mean I was

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Speaker 5: at school when it happen, So I mean, it is

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Speaker 5: very dangerous to mix these chemicals together, as you know,

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Speaker 5: And apparently she thought it would we dispose of the body.

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Speaker 4: Somehow chlorine itself is just the gas alone is the

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Speaker 4: basis for some chemical weapons. I think that it's even

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Speaker 4: loosely associated with mustard gas from not mistake God Real,

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Speaker 4: And there's certainly chlorine gas out there that has been

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Speaker 4: used as a chemical agent and war. That's how dangerous

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Speaker 4: this stuff is. And if she's just kind of, you know,

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Speaker 4: blindly going through this thing and trying to get rid

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Speaker 4: of the but there's no telling what she grabbed from

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Speaker 4: under the counter and there was.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, in that spirit, it's not even just

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Speaker 6: the chemicals where she's just like taking whatever she has

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Speaker 6: and throwing them at this poor.

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Speaker 7: Man allegedly because not only.

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Speaker 6: Is he decapitated, but the medical examiner testified in court

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Speaker 6: that he suffered injuries from two distinct cutting tools. So

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Speaker 6: she thinks in niche there was a knife involved and

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Speaker 6: then a power saw, So she's using chemical the knife

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Speaker 6: of power saw. And interestingly, the police crimes scene analysts

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Speaker 6: testified that the investigators photographed two swords living lying on

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Speaker 6: Devin's living room floor, So this is the accused woman

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Speaker 6: two swords lying on her floor, but they never tested

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Speaker 6: them for DNA or blood.

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Speaker 7: Resident is using.

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Speaker 5: Okay, So there's a decapitated man all right in the closet,

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Speaker 5: wrapped in a blanket, and there's two swords. Who has swords?

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Speaker 5: By the way, there's two swords laying in the living

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Speaker 5: room floor of this woman's house, and they photographed them,

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Speaker 5: but they did not test them for blood for real. Interesting, Okay,

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Speaker 5: So of course the defense is hopping right on that.

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Speaker 5: If I get murdered in Las Vegas, I want somebody

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Speaker 5: else to do my investigation. Please, Joseph, I need somebody

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Speaker 5: that you have my back.

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Speaker 4: Working on the remains out in the desert as well.

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Speaker 4: Go out.

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Speaker 5: Oh, we have got to talk about that at some point.

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Speaker 4: That's insane. Yeah, there's a lot happening in Vegas.

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Speaker 2: What's going on?

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Speaker 5: Somebody come help me? Like, I can't. I can't be

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Speaker 5: the I got here on my own. I can't be

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Speaker 5: raw dogging it out here by myself, like, I need

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Speaker 5: some help. So, but the head has not been recovered,

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Speaker 5: and the doctor Yagi, he's the medical examiner. He said

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Speaker 5: the coroner's office could only rule this death as a homicide,

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Speaker 5: not specifically the exact manner or sequence of fatal injuries

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Speaker 5: because they're missing maybe the piece that will tell them

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Speaker 5: exactly what happened to this victim. And his name is Jonathan.

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Speaker 5: The attorney for her Devlin Devin.

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Speaker 2: Sorry.

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Speaker 5: She questioned whether Devon could have physically moved one hundred

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Speaker 5: and seventy pound body all by herself. Prosecutors countered that

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Speaker 5: with female staff in the corner's office routinely handled bodies

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Speaker 5: of similar weights on their own, right, right, Joseph, that's true, right, yeah,

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Speaker 5: especially if you just done, you're adrenaline pumping.

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Speaker 4: Absolute one hundred and seventy pounds is a walk in

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Speaker 4: the park when when your adrenals are firing and you're motivated.

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Speaker 4: Now your survivor literally survival has kicked in because look,

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Speaker 4: she's already demonstrating she's trying to rendered down the Skuy's body, right,

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Speaker 4: a guy that she allegedly loved and cared for at

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Speaker 4: one time. She's willing to desecrate his remains with not

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Speaker 4: only edge weapons but also chemicals. Trust me, she can

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Speaker 4: move one hundred and seventy pound body. I don't think

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Speaker 4: that that's that that's beyond reason.

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Speaker 3: And you have all of our trust and listen, when

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Speaker 3: we come back, we have if you believe it, another

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Speaker 3: decapitation case in the headlines.

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Speaker 2: This is out of Staten Island. Keep here True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're

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Speaker 5: talking true crime all the time. I'm Boddy move And and

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Speaker 5: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong. And tonight we have a

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Speaker 5: very special guest because it is Forensic Sunday. We have

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Speaker 5: Joseph Scott Morgan. Welcome Joseph, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 5: And tonight we have a diva, we have Ava, we

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Speaker 5: have is enjoying himself. So let's go to a talkback.

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Speaker 8: This is Dawn, my first time calling in, but I've

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Speaker 8: been listening since the first episode and i love it.

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Speaker 8: I am from Staten Island and I am calling in

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Speaker 8: about that horrific decounitation case that happened here. They are

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Speaker 8: saying that Damien Herstel has a whole host of psychiatric issues,

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Speaker 8: including schizophrenia. Nothing that makes any difference, but that is

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Speaker 8: what you're hearing.

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Speaker 5: Not surprising.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is the case. I'm so glad you brought

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Speaker 3: it up, and thank you for calling in, Dawn. This

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Speaker 3: is something that Joseph actually knows a lot about. So

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Speaker 3: we are going to dig right in all right, So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: what you're referring to is damietl He's a nineteen year

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Speaker 3: old man, as you said, from Staten Island, and he's

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Speaker 3: accused of decapitating his stepfather.

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Speaker 2: However, he has pleaded.

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Speaker 3: Not guilty to murder and this was during an in

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Speaker 3: person court appearance. He does remain under psychiatric supervision as

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Speaker 3: well as a suicide watch. So here's what happened. On

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Speaker 3: October sixth, so just about a little over a month ago,

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Speaker 3: police discovered forty five year old Anthony casa loaspro and

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Speaker 3: he is the victim who was indeed decapitated. He was

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Speaker 3: found inside the West Brighton home that he was sharing

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Speaker 3: with his step son, the accused, Damien Herstel. Damien was

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Speaker 3: taken into custody very sadly at the scene after his

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Speaker 3: sixteen year old sister found the body of Anthony Coslabro's

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Speaker 3: stepfather and she then alerted their mother that then prompted

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Speaker 3: a homicide investigation.

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Speaker 2: Right, so sad.

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Speaker 5: Another another kid being exposed to this kind of Another

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Speaker 5: Another another girl, another little girl.

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Speaker 3: Another little girl seeing unconscionable violence. At the at the hearing,

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Speaker 3: seven families did attend and they did so quietly. This

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Speaker 3: must be so difficult for them. Families, family, seven family members.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, gotcha.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And but here's what's interesting is that law enforcement said

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Speaker 3: that Damien, the accused, that he what they're alleging is

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Speaker 3: that he planned to dismember and dispose of his stepfather

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Speaker 3: Anthony's body, including premeditation, despite his mental health issues.

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Speaker 5: Oh so we'll see how them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll see how that plays out in court. And

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Speaker 3: in fact, the accused, Damien, his next scheduled court appearance

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Speaker 3: is November twentieth, very briefly, the day of and then

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Speaker 3: I have a ton of questions for Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 3: So police initially thought that they were coming in they

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Speaker 3: got a call that they there was a stabbing only however,

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Speaker 3: Anthony was found. He was stabbed. However, he also was decapitated.

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Speaker 3: He was found in his bathrobe, in his bathtub, excuse me,

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Speaker 3: And there was a knife still lodged in his body.

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Speaker 3: And in one of the crime scene photos you see

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Speaker 3: the victim severed head that was lying next to his

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Speaker 3: corpse inside of this tub shower, and there was a

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Speaker 3: bowl and a saw on the floor nearby. So Joseph,

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Speaker 3: please hop in tell us what to think.

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Speaker 4: I gotta tell you. Yeah, I wouldn't presume to tell

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Speaker 4: you what to think, but I'll lay it out from

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Speaker 4: my thoughts. You know, what's really heartbreaking about this case

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Speaker 4: is that Anthony was this disabled sanitation worker. He couldn't

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Speaker 4: get around any longer. This guy's helpless, and this kid

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Speaker 4: just attacks him, attacks him and then begins to desecrate

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Speaker 4: his body with the sixteen year old sister in the house,

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Speaker 4: and he went so far. This is why I'm not

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Speaker 4: buying into the whole reasoning with the psychiatric angle on this.

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Speaker 4: He had a self preservation. He went to the top

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Speaker 4: with the body in order to clean to clean up, right,

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Speaker 4: because this is a real bloody affair. He's trying to

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Speaker 4: literally take apart the body in order to hide it.

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Speaker 4: And I think probably, and forgive me for talking about this,

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Speaker 4: because this is probably one of the more ghastly elements

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Speaker 4: to this whole thing, is the fact that, according to

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Speaker 4: I think initially the sister who he tried to show

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Speaker 4: the contents to head, you don't just have stab ones here,

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Speaker 4: You've got bludgeoning to the cranial vault has been opened

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Speaker 4: and allegedly this poor man's brain that it extruded from

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Speaker 4: the skull was placed into a blender.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: And that's what's so heartbreaking. Well, there's much of this.

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Speaker 4: It's heartbreaking. But you know, when you now we're this

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Speaker 4: is something we're into another level here now, because we're

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Speaker 4: talking about somebody's trying to liquify a body, not just

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Speaker 4: this member of body clean up after themselves, trying to

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Speaker 4: liquified body I guess, to flush it down into the

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Speaker 4: sewer system or whatever the base might be. So that's

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Speaker 4: what they're dealing with in this particular case. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you can say all you want that he's

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Speaker 4: mentally imbalanced, but as far as I'm concerned, when I

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Speaker 4: that was me on the scene, I would say that

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Speaker 4: this is just pure unadulterated evil. Y'all.

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Speaker 5: Well, you can still be like found competent and still

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Speaker 5: have issues as well, Like you can be both. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: you know, the level.

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Speaker 4: Of planning that is a great example of that.

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Speaker 5: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Ed Dean is a great advent.

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Speaker 5: Yeah he was.

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Speaker 4: He was incompetent beforehand, and they put him, you know,

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Speaker 4: the institutionalized him and got him well and brought him

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Speaker 4: back and had a trial for him a decade later,

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Speaker 4: if not longer, you know, and he could stand trial then, right, Hm.

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Speaker 5: Wow. So there was a spoon also sticking out of

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Speaker 5: the dismembered skull along with the plastic sauce label. So

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Speaker 5: there was he was literally trying to dispose of this

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Speaker 5: body through through this blender.

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Speaker 2: Yeah situation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he was trying to the spoon itself had been

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Speaker 4: inserted into the eye socket.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: So he was making an attempt to Yeah, he was

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Speaker 4: making an attempt to remove or extricate the eye from

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Speaker 4: the orbit, again getting to the saw of areas that

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Speaker 4: he could penetrate with the tools that he had at hand.

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Speaker 4: This is certainly you know, we go back to this

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Speaker 4: earlier comment that we made about the woman that was

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Speaker 4: trying to dissolve the body or whatever the case might

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Speaker 4: have been. They're using those things. These are called instruments

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Speaker 4: of opportunity. Okay. It's not like you've gone down to

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Speaker 4: the local slaughterhouse and you employed somebody there that has

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Speaker 4: the tools, or somebody that works in the morgue that

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Speaker 4: has too. You're talking about somebody that's going out to

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Speaker 4: the shed or in this case, beneath, you know, into

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Speaker 4: the kitchen cabinet in order to you know, provide themselves

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Speaker 4: with tools, bring a saw into the house and then

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Speaker 4: you know, of course dragging this poor man's remains into

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Speaker 4: the tub to try to wash all the evidence down

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Speaker 4: the journey.

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Speaker 5: Oh my goodness. This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio

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Speaker 5: where we're talking true crime all the time. I'mbody moving

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Speaker 5: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and forensics death investigator

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Speaker 5: Joseph Scott Morgan. And right now we're right in the

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Speaker 5: middle of talking about a recent decapitation case and you know,

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Speaker 5: for quite frankly body utilizing and utilization case out of

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Speaker 5: Stanton Island, and we want to hear from you. Give

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Speaker 5: us a call at eight eight to thirty one crime

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Speaker 5: or hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app. Joseph,

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Speaker 5: You've been doing this very long, right, have you ever

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Speaker 5: seen any anything like this? Is this something unique? I mean,

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Speaker 5: I know decapitations are rare, right, but something like this

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Speaker 5: will then trained to expose of the body in this manner.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I've worked a couple over the years.

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Speaker 4: And again I go back and you guys, can you

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Speaker 4: guys can say I'm nutty, but I have to tell

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Speaker 4: you I feel as though that there's been an increase

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Speaker 4: of these.

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Speaker 9: I do too.

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Speaker 4: We just talked about one. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And as

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Speaker 4: a matter of fact, my partner and I own body bags.

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Speaker 4: We did a special episode Takes a Lot before an

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Speaker 4: audience two years ago at Crome Con.

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Speaker 6: Uh.

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Speaker 4: Where was that? I think it maybe me Chrome Con, Orlando.

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Speaker 4: I can't remember anyway specifically focusing on this because we

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Speaker 4: were seeing so many any of these trends relative to

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Speaker 4: desecration of human remains. It's almost like it's not enough

436
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 4: just to merely kill somebody. Now people do things with

437
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 4: bodies now. Afterwards that over the course of my career,

438
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 4: I was an invest scare for over twenty years, and

439
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 4: you know, and now I've taught for twenty years. Never

440
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 4: never have I seen it at this pitch. If this

441
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 4: is seak that we're experiencing right now, I remember.

442
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 7: You saying that on shows before.

443
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 6: So I did a little research because I was curious, like,

444
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 6: if there's any evidence that it has increased, and why

445
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 6: that could be and the most recent reliable study I

446
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 6: could find, and if you have a more reliable recent

447
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 6: study please send us a talkbacker give.

448
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 7: Us a call.

449
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 6: But it's that according to a twenty twelve study, capitation

450
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 6: of bodies is only approximately zero point one percent of

451
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 6: medimal lingual autopsy. So that's zero point one percent, and

452
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 6: that includes homicides, accidents, suicides, if that's impossible, so it's

453
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 6: even less than zero point one percent of homicides. And

454
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 6: because it's so rare, there's so little research about, for example,

455
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 6: how frequent it is, if that has increased or did decrease.

456
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 7: And I was.

457
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 6: Particularly interested in like cultural factors like if For example,

458
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 6: I saw one statistic that said, in countries where decapitation

459
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 6: is a form of like execution, like the death penalty,

460
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 6: it's more common in terms of just like civilian homicides.

461
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 7: So I was really trying to find out.

462
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 5: Like a guillotine or something, right, like, Yes, so in

463
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 5: countries where there's that kind of thing, it is that

464
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 5: isn't more.

465
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 7: Prevalent because it's maybe more it's more.

466
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 5: Naturalized, it's more natural, more accepted.

467
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 6: There's so little research about it. So I'm just really

468
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:48,239
Speaker 6: curious about that.

469
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 5: No, I am too. And you know, the case that

470
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 5: brings me to this is was Luca. You know, and

471
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 5: Luca decapitated Junelyn, and you know, it is a very

472
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 5: rare and it's a Luca did it because he was

473
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 5: he wanted to be as disgusting as possible, and he

474
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 5: wanted to be as outlandish as possible, so he did

475
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 5: everything to Jelen. I mean, he rests in peace that

476
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 5: he could just to get reactions out of people. So,

477
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 5: you know, but in these situations that we're talking about recently,

478
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 5: they seem sort of not that they seem mentally unbalanced

479
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 5: in some way. Wow, I wonder.

480
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 4: I don't know. I've often thought about. I've really been

481
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: thinking about because twenty twelve from a research standpoint, now,

482
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 4: it's kind of in our rear view mirror. That's true,

483
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 4: you know, that's some distance back. So for me, I

484
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 4: think there's a level of desensitization. Yeah, we're seeing and

485
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 4: I think that that might be translatable. Now Listen, I've

486
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 4: got a very small piece of high relative to what

487
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 4: I'm seeing. So some of this I don't think it's

488
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 4: necessarily anecdotal. I think that that there's something there because

489
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 4: these cases are being and maybe it's being a bias

490
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 4: relative to you know, if it bleeds leads and so

491
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 4: the more horrific the trial, the case is, the more

492
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 4: that it kind of gets into the system. However, it

493
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 4: seems to me, it seems to me that there are more,

494
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 4: it's more and more prevalent, just the things that people

495
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 4: want to do with human remains and people that you

496
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 4: would not normally. You know, a lot of stuff with

497
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 4: this memberment. That sort of thing is stuff that for

498
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 4: many years was associated, as you mentioned, in capital punishment

499
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 4: countries you said, at wartime and in organized crime, in

500
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 4: order to facilitate the you know, to get rid of

501
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 4: the body. But now you know, and I'll cite this

502
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 4: case again that I've mentioned before, the mother and the

503
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 4: daughter in Maryland, I think a year and a half ago,

504
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 4: that dismembered the grandmother and tried to render her down

505
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: on the gas girl in the backyard like that. Yeah, yeah,

506
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 4: and that you know again, you know, who, who in

507
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 4: the world, who would ever think that that could even

508
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 4: possibly happen. You know, it's beyond the pale.

509
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: It is, it's beyond the pale. And so is what

510
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: seems like just torture upon torture. So Damien, the accused,

511
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 3: I had not quite realized that he actually showed the

512
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: body to his sixteen year old sister, and when the

513
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 3: sixteen year old called mom, Mom recolects phone calls saying

514
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 3: Damien killed Anthony and he doesn't have a head. So that,

515
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like that goes a little bit

516
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: in concert with what you're talking about, Joseph, of just

517
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: ratcheting up sort of how.

518
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: Evil you can be for Lafe.

519
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think it's important to point out too

520
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 5: that you know, Alicia, the mom, Damien's mom, she was

521
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 5: the wife of the victim. She testified and said that,

522
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 5: you know, Anthony Salapo, that's the victim. Anthony was a

523
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 5: good man. He was a city sanitation mechanic who really

524
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 5: stepped up big to help raise her children. And this now,

525
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 5: this poor man has been paid back by being decapitated

526
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 5: by the very boy he helped raise.

527
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 7: That is so tragic.

528
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 5: It's so sad, like, you know, this guy's just doing

529
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 5: his job raising his kids, you know. And Damian, you know,

530
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 5: he the accused in this case. He has a history

531
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 5: of psychia treatment, including hospitalization and the use of antipsychotic

532
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 5: and bipolar medication. So it is clear that he has

533
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 5: some kind of diagnosis, right that there are some mental

534
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 5: stability problems, but is that going to make him not

535
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 5: culpable for this. I don't know.

536
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 4: That's going to be one of the interesting things. One

537
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 4: of the interesting things for me, and this is a

538
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 4: scary thought. I'm really wondering if there's any corollary between

539
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 4: some of the drug cocktails people are own now relative

540
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 4: to the distensive stations, not just media related. It can be.

541
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 4: You know, you never know, because you've gotten many practitioners

542
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 4: out there that again, they like to throw pharmaceuticals at

543
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 4: people here, take this and we'll get you leveled out.

544
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: And these people stale this for a protracted period of time,

545
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 4: and the slice adjustment in chemistry I think can set

546
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 4: some people off.

547
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 5: That's right.

548
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: Now, We're going to go straight to a.

549
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 10: Talkback Michelle with oneel here and exciting news out of Florida.

550
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 10: Jennifer Keyes case is no longer considered a cold case,

551
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 10: and apparently there is untested evidence that they're going to

552
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 10: DNA test and we here in Florida really hope the

553
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 10: family can get some answers and she can get some justice.

554
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: That's a great talk back and this has been absolutely

555
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: on our radar. We were speaking very recently with Joseph

556
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 3: Scott Morgan, so we should speak more about it now.

557
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: So the case which I as you know you in Friends,

558
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: has been big in Florida's hearts and minds. Nearly twenty

559
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: years ago, Jennifer Kessey disappeared and Florida investigators have uncovered

560
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 3: previously untested DNA evidence. This has dramatically narrowed the list

561
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 3: of potential suspects. They are also using advanced AYE tools

562
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: to reanalyze the case and now officially reclassify it as

563
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: active rather than cold, which to your point is great

564
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: news for the family. So Jennifer Kessey was just twenty

565
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: four years old. She was a finance professional in Orlando,

566
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: and she vanished January twenty third of two thousand and six,

567
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: and this was after returning home from a trip with

568
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 3: her boyfriend. Her car later was found about a mile away,

569
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: and there was some surveillance footage that showed an identified

570
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: person parking it, but no trace of her has ever

571
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 3: been found. And unfortunately it was a very it was

572
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: a poor angle and poor quality of that video itself.

573
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 3: But it's really it's great news that it is now

574
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: an active case.

575
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: So previously this untested DNA evidence.

576
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 3: It had been located, and it's undergoing modern rat exape

577
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: re examination that's expanding from nineteen to twenty six genetic markers,

578
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 3: and what that will do is give increased accuracy. So, Joseph,

579
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: what are your thoughts on this?

580
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I might be mistaken. There was There's been a

581
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 4: couple of these cases now in Florida. And if I'm

582
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 4: remembering correctly, this car that was hers, it seems like

583
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 4: the family had it and it was sold or something

584
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 4: like this. I can't remember. I think one of the

585
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 4: and they had wanted to get it back at one

586
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 4: point in time. I might be misremembering, So forgive me,

587
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 4: forgive me as I am. I would hope that at

588
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: that point toime that the interior of the car had

589
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 4: been thoroughly, thoroughly examined in any samples that were there

590
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 4: could have been re examined. I think that there may

591
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 4: have been something in that car that could have been degraded,

592
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 4: perhaps could have been degraded perhaps from an evidentry standpoint.

593
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 11: Uh.

594
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 4: And the tools that we had back during that period

595
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 4: of time, again, we've you know, we're many years moved

596
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 4: on down the line. Now we believe it or not

597
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 4: we require less sample now and better sensitivity. Isn't that something?

598
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: And so yeah, and so with and that's one of

599
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 4: the reasons you're seeing advancements in a lot of these cases.

600
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 4: A lot of people hummed back and forth over the

601
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 4: Ramsey case. You know, back then, you know, you would

602
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 4: have to have a gigantic spot of blood in order

603
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 4: to reference that in order to do DNA, And now

604
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 4: you know, you can look at some thing besides the

605
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 4: you know, the head of a pen, and it will

606
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 4: it will, it will have more sensitivity the instrumentation. I'm

607
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 4: wondering if that's what they're looking at now, something that

608
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 4: they had previously collected and they're like, I can't get

609
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: enough off of this. But now that you is going

610
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: back and they can, they can amplify perhaps, And that's

611
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 4: what I'm going to be very interested in seeing here.

612
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 5: So I did the calculation, and so they expanded from

613
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 5: nineteen in two thousand and six to twenty six genetic

614
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 5: markers for increased accuracy in the span of nineteen years. Right,

615
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 5: So because it's two thousand and five in two thousand

616
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 5: and six, that's a thirty six percent increase or almost

617
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 5: thirty seven percent increase in You know, this is a

618
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 5: big advancement for the scientific community. Hats off to them.

619
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 5: That's a big deal. Just might help a lot of case.

620
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, prediction within the decade, it's even going to become

621
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 4: more sensitive. You can bet your bottom dollar on it

622
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: that will happen. And that's why I have great hope

623
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 4: that a lot of cases like Jennifer we're gonna be

624
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 4: able to get clear off the books. Got I mean,

625
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 4: how as tragic as her death is, of course are missing,

626
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 4: but just how exciting this the fact that we'll be

627
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 4: able to get these cases off the books and give

628
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 4: these families some resolution, right, Yeah, that's the beauty of

629
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 4: the science, I think absolutely.

630
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: And Joseph, you had earlier mentioned the car, which was

631
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 3: a black two thousand and four Chevy Malibu, and it

632
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 3: was discovered two days after she went missing. It was

633
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 3: about a mile from her condo, and you were right

634
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 3: about there being a little bit of evidence, so it

635
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: appeared to have been wiped clean of evidence, with the

636
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 3: exception of one latent print and a small DNA fiber.

637
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 3: And as you were just saying, with these advancements, what

638
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 3: you know, maybe it was so small back then maybe

639
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: as much more meaningful.

640
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 2: Now.

641
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 4: Wow, Yeah, I'm wondering the fingerprint is interesting now too.

642
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 4: I'm wondering if they might have some touch DNA, you

643
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 4: know where you've got these dit dit skin cells that

644
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 4: have slopped off because we lose you know, I don't know,

645
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: somebody throw out a number at one point time, like

646
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 4: one hundred thousand these things for day uh you know,

647
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 4: I mean Jurgons has made a ton of money off

648
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 4: of us, right guys for dry skin and that's you know,

649
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 4: that's what you're talking about, and so you're leaving these

650
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 4: things behind you're not aware of it. I wonder if

651
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 4: that those points of contact, because you can never clear everything.

652
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 4: You watch some movie and everybody's wiping everything down, it's

653
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 4: almost sent empirical and possibility to hit every single point.

654
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 4: And if they did a thorough job at that particular time,

655
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 4: maybe just maybe they've also they've also can bolster this

656
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 4: with some touch DNA that you know, they hadn't thought

657
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 4: about in the past.

658
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: Interesting.

659
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,240
Speaker 3: So yeah, it seems like really possibilities are opening up,

660
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 3: and we wish nothing but the best for Jennifer Kesse's

661
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 3: family to get some closure on this. This is shueground.

662
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 3: Tonight we're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with

663
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: Body Move In and of course Joseph Scott Morgan, everybody's

664
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 3: favorite forensic expert. If you have any questions for Joseph,

665
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 3: give us a call. We're at eighty to eighty three

666
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: to one Crime or as always, hit us on the talkbacks.

667
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: Open up the app, the iHeartRadio app. It's in the

668
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: upper right hand corner. It's a little red microphone button.

669
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: You press it, you leave basically a voicemail, and then

670
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 3: you are on the air. And in fact, we are

671
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 3: now going to go to a talk back.

672
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 12: Hey y'all, it's Samantha Jersey's in the house. Jerseys about

673
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 12: organ donation on your license, if you guys can contact

674
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 12: like a doctor or something, because I heard if you

675
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 12: and your friend are in a terrible car accident, doctors

676
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 12: will perform more care on the person that is not

677
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 12: an organ donor because they figured if you are an

678
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 12: organ donor, you can save multiple lives.

679
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 10: I doubt it's true, but I don't know.

680
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 12: That's just what I've heard.

681
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 5: I've heard. I've heard that my entire life, Like, don't

682
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 5: don't put organ donor on your driver's license, because then

683
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 5: people know and they won't take care of you at

684
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 5: the hospital. I have heard that, like my entire life.

685
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 5: I'm still an organ doner by the way, but yeah,

686
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 5: I have heard that.

687
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 3: Joseph, can you speak a little bit too medical ethics, Well.

688
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 4: I don't know. I think that if there's any medical

689
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 4: professional out there that actually engages in that kind of behavior,

690
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 4: they should be summarily drummed out of the profession and

691
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 4: probably criminally charged, just in you know, my humble opinion,

692
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 4: because every life has value, and so if you know,

693
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 4: if I were to ever hear about that, I'd be shocked.

694
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, and I don't know.

695
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 4: It's it's rather cynical on one level to think of it. Yeah,

696
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 4: you know, you know, I guess, I guess. Yeah. Well,

697
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 4: you're seeing that people are thinking about it. So the thought,

698
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 4: the fact that this is out there and floating about

699
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 4: is interesting. Now. I've had some really good experiences with

700
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 4: organization elements in the past, because they actually have to come.

701
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 4: If you have somebody that is a victim of violence, okay,

702
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 4: that has brought about their death or is about to

703
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 4: bring about their death and they're on event. For instance,

704
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 4: they the people that want to harvest the organs in

705
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 4: a case of violence, it could be a homicide or whatever.

706
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 4: They have to call us first at the emmy end

707
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 4: corner and say, look, we want to do our organ

708
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 4: hards station. Will you go ahead and give us permission.

709
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: We'll give the surgeon specific instructions about what we need.

710
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 4: First off, we're going to be their surgical notes. If

711
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 4: there's a bullet our projectile trajectory, we have to understand

712
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 4: that because when they go in, they're not thinking forensics,

713
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 4: they're thinking actual. They're thinking actual of what do we

714
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 4: do to make this a successful harvestation. So you have

715
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 4: to work hand in hand with them, and we're still

716
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 4: going to do an autopsy on the body even afterwards.

717
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 4: I participated in many of those over the years.

718
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: Oh, this is very interesting.

719
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 3: I had no idea that this was an avenue of

720
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 3: your ware of the work of medical examiners.

721
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. And on the side, I used to do eye

722
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 4: in nucleations as well. I would go out for the

723
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 4: I bank and take corneus of the dead. Yeah, sure

724
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 4: it is. So, I've been involved with it for a

725
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 4: protracted period of time over the years, and I'm a

726
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 4: big fan of it. Obviously, I've seen it, you know,

727
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 4: I've seen the end game, and these people and their

728
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 4: families make tremendous sacrifices by what they're doing. Oh, you're right,

729
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 4: you know. Uh Oh, I'm sorry, Ada, I think made

730
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 4: a comment, and right you are, because for for everybody

731
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 4: that that offers up a part of themselves. You know,

732
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 4: you've got two kidneys that could go and save two

733
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 4: people's lives, a couple of lungs, You've got a heart,

734
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 4: you know, liver, these sorts of things that if they're

735
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 4: healthy enough and you know they can, they're going to

736
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 4: be viable. Boy, what a blessing that could be.

737
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: You know, absolutely, Why don't we go to another talk back?

738
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 11: Let's do it, Hey, chikus, It's Mary Kay in Cincinnati, Ohio.

739
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 11: I wanted to throw out there that I am one

740
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 11: of those people that is donating their body to science.

741
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 11: So I am aware that I might end up in

742
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 11: a field or am I to end up being dissected,

743
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 11: but I figure I am helping either cure cancer or

744
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 11: catch the next serial killer.

745
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 7: Thanks love you, guys.

746
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 5: Oh Mary Kay, You're an angel. That's great, and it

747
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 5: really does help a lot of people, right like you

748
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 5: might you might be the one person or a contributor

749
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 5: of one person that you know helps eradicate some disease

750
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 5: that hasn't even been released yet, you know what I mean?

751
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 5: Like you just don't know, and uh, you know, I don't.

752
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 4: Right now? What the beauty of what what she's mentioning

753
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 4: Right now? In jack State where I teach, I'm the

754
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 4: uh the gross anatomy lab manager, and we have three

755
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 4: cantaverse right now that our undergraduate forensic students are having

756
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 4: exposure to. We're doing dissections throughout the semester and the

757
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 4: beauty of that is that these kids that finish up

758
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: in our program will have the experiences having been around

759
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 4: the dead before they were actually going to the field,

760
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 4: and they'll understand form and function. Right. We can talk

761
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 4: about trauma, we can talk about injuries that sort of things,

762
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 4: but uh, my wife, who's a PE teacher by trade,

763
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 4: she loves to term sthetic learning where you're touching something,

764
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 4: you're feeling it, and you see it in action. That

765
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 4: sorts of things, and it's amazing. I've actually seen light

766
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 4: bulbs go off, you know, I can do some boring

767
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 4: lecture on death investigation or some particular area. But if

768
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 4: you have, if you have human remains to demonstrate that with,

769
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 4: it's a very very powerful tool, right.

770
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, hands on, I mean I learned.

771
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 7: Okay, I have a question because I saw a post

772
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,959
Speaker 7: and I don't know if it's misinformation in Joseph. Maybe

773
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 7: you can debunk that.

774
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 6: If you donate your body, it could go to the

775
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 6: military and they might use it to test explosives and

776
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 6: your body's going to get blown up online?

777
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 7: Is that true?

778
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, the army, Well that was army. You heard

779
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 4: that many many years ago, I have, but that was

780
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 4: from back in the fifties. Our post just for post

781
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 4: World War two, if I'm remembering correctly, and there were

782
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 4: some sometimes they did that to the to my knowledge,

783
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 4: you know, I say it's military is not participating in

784
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 4: those activities. I'm sure there's people with temple hats out

785
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 4: there that will say that it is still going on. However,

786
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 4: to the best of my knowledge, I don't know about

787
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 4: that happening, and it would violate so so so many

788
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 4: you know, yeah, things that are acceptable, you know, relative

789
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 4: to know how we treat our dead and at the

790
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 4: end of the day. You know, that's kind of where

791
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 4: I dance. I'm an advocate for the dead. Sometimes the

792
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 4: dead certainly don't have a voice, and many times they

793
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 4: don't have a family around. And I've heard of some

794
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 4: horrible experiment experimentation that has gone on in the past

795
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 4: that I can verify. But to the best my knowledge,

796
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 4: US military is is no longer participating in it.

797
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 5: That you can that you've heard other things that you can,

798
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 5: We're going to have to We're going to put a

799
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 5: pin in that and get back. We're going to have

800
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 5: a discussion about that, because I want to know what

801
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,720
Speaker 5: things you were saying. Oh, you could verify that's very interesting.

802
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: But hopefully Eva your mind is put at ease with

803
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 3: what hasn't been going on for a cool seventy five.

804
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

805
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 6: I just love a vision of my body getting blown

806
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 6: up in a field and it's like I'm surrounded by

807
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 6: like US military.

808
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 7: That's definitely helpful.

809
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 3: Well, we are going to put that fear unfounded as

810
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: it is to rest and hopefully everyone will be sticking

811
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: around because coming up at the top of the hour,

812
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: class is in session. Professor Joseph Scott Morgan himself will

813
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 3: be giving us a crime lab on all things blood spatter.

814
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: I know body you have questions written up and teed

815
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 3: up and if you do, give us call eight a

816
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: eight three one crime True Crime Tonight.

817
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 5: This is your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio where we talk

818
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 5: true crime all the time. I'm Boddy Moving and I'm

819
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 5: here with producer Courtney Armstrong and Ava and Death investigator

820
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 5: Joseph Scott Morgan. Don't forget if you miss any part

821
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 5: of this show, you can always catch the podcast. We

822
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 5: also want to hear from you, so please give us

823
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 5: a call it eight eight eight three one crime or

824
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 5: get with us on our socials at True Crime Tonight's

825
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,959
Speaker 5: show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on

826
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 5: Facebook Now. Classes in session, we have professor Joseph Scott Morgan.

827
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 5: It's time for crime Lab today. Today this is a

828
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 5: special one. He's going to be talking and teaching us

829
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 5: a little bit about the world of blood spatter and

830
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 5: how investigators use it to put together the puzzle, put

831
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 5: together the pieces of events that took place at a

832
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 5: crime scene. And later in the show we're going to

833
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 5: be using what we learned to talk about this new

834
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 5: forensics information that's come out about the Idaho student murder,

835
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 5: So stay tuned for that. That's going to be in

836
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 5: our next segment. Joseph classes in session. I brought you

837
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 5: an apple. I brought you an apple. I am teacher's

838
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 5: pet right now.

839
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: Kiss, I don't know.

840
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 5: Listen, here's a whisky. Here's a little whiskey. I don't

841
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 5: know what what you drink.

842
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 4: Let's get drink so there, Okay, yeah, it's not really nothing. Yeah,

843
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 4: you know the beauty I've got to tell you the

844
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 4: beauty of uh. And people think that's odd when you

845
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 4: use or beauty, but the idea of when you walk

846
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 4: into a scene and you have blood deposition in various forms,

847
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 4: you know, throughout a space, it's it. You know, people

848
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 4: think that they do things in secret, right in a homicide,

849
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 4: for instance, where you've got a shooting, a stabbing or bludgeoning,

850
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 4: and you know what, guys, not everything happens happens in

851
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 4: secret because you can walk into a room someone that

852
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 4: really really knows what they're doing, and you can track

853
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 4: the movements of the victim. You can track the movements

854
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 4: of the perpetrator. You can even track the movement of

855
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 4: an instrument. Okay, how it's utilized. Was it used in

856
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 4: a beating for instance, or do you have a knife

857
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 4: where somebody is just kind of standing static in one

858
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 4: spot where blood is passively dripping off the tip of

859
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 4: that knife and dropping on the floor. They gives you

860
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 4: an indication that that blood was in a static position.

861
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 4: So there's a lot to learn. It goes back to

862
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 4: what doctor Maguci said all those years ago in his

863
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 4: book Corner Corner at Large. He said, the thing that

864
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 4: I do, I'm no longer to look at bodies when

865
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 4: I walk into a scene. I look up at the

866
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 4: ceiling and then I work my way down to the

867
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 4: body because you keep in context everything within that scene,

868
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 4: and blood is one of the most important things. So

869
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 4: for us, we essentially have three types of blood blood deposition.

870
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 4: So we will have blood that is passive, that kind

871
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 4: of drips away, you know, somebody perhaps has it on

872
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 4: their hand a weapon. Maybe you're moving a body and

873
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 4: you've got a blood a bloody head that is saturated,

874
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 4: the hair is and the blood is free falling through

875
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 4: the air like that. We have a blood that is projected.

876
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 4: And everybody loves to talk about that kind of blood

877
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 4: deposition because they think they can learn a lot about

878
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 4: the type of weapon that was used, and you can.

879
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 4: But we measure that in velocity. We have low velocity.

880
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 4: So if you think about low velocity blood deposition or statter,

881
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 4: that kind of energy is generated by somebody that's using

882
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 4: their hands to beat somebody with. Okay, you can't generate

883
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 4: a lot of energy that way, kicking, punching, hitting. Then

884
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 4: you move up to medium velocity. All right, So now

885
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 4: we're in the realm of like a hammer, a baseball bat,

886
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 4: where we're actually taking an instrument and beating somebody with it.

887
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 4: We just talked about this young man just a moment

888
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 4: ago that you know that that penetrated this guy's skull. Well,

889
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 4: that would take you know, perhaps multiple strikes to get

890
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,959
Speaker 4: in there, and a lot of energy over and over

891
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 4: and over again. And then of course we have high velocity.

892
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 4: And I'm going to give you a little experiment to

893
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 4: do actually as part of my class, to if you

894
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 4: if you want a demonstration of high velocity or what

895
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 4: it looks like high velocity blood deposition. If anyone at

896
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 4: home has a can of aerosol hairspray, go into go

897
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 4: into your bathroom and take the hairspray and hold it

898
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 4: about I don't know, maybe about five to six inches

899
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 4: away from your mirror and just one pump, one sprit

900
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 4: like that, and then obliquely, which means stand to the side. Okay,

901
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 4: stand to the side, and you will actually be able

902
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 4: to see this deposition on that smooth surface, which is

903
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 4: the best kind of surface to have if you're trying

904
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 4: to do an interpretation of blood deposition, and what you

905
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 4: will see are these little particulated pieces or bits of

906
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,240
Speaker 4: this hairspray. Blood does the same thing. That's an indication

907
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 4: of high velocity, so you'll actually see blood that's driven

908
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 4: by a high velocity instrument, so like a handgun round

909
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 4: or rifle round, a shotgun round, and it is there

910
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 4: is a mist that is created, and we call it

911
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 4: it's like a histamine mist, and it just kind of

912
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 4: blows in. It adheres to any kind of surface, and

913
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 4: you can see that real well, real well on a

914
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 4: mirror if you stand to the side. And standing to

915
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 4: the side of observing something obliquely is actually something we

916
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 4: do at the scene because your eyes will to see

917
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 4: you if you're looking straight on. If we can get

918
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 4: a flashlight and stand to the side of an area

919
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 4: and look at it and obliquely light it and bounce

920
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 4: light off of it. And that applies with photography. To

921
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 4: flash photography, you can get sometimes you can get a

922
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 4: better area of How how how how extensively the distribution

923
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 4: of that blood is?

924
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 2: Joseph, I ask you a question, Professor Moore.

925
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 3: Yes, so you mentioned that the ideal surface is flat,

926
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 3: you know, like a mirror. How does how does the

927
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 3: investigation change if we're talking about blood spatter not on

928
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 3: say a flat wall, but on some sort of bed

929
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 3: duvet or shag carpet.

930
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: How does the interpretation change?

931
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,439
Speaker 4: Very difficult? You add another level because that's a non

932
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 4: that is a porous surface, very poor thing with Yeah,

933
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 4: with unpolished wood, you'll get that on the dashboard of

934
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 4: a car where it's kind of you don't really think

935
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 4: of it being traditionally dimpled, but it is dimpled. It's textured.

936
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 4: So any kind of textured surface, just think of it

937
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 4: this way. According without giving too much away about your

938
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 4: personal life. You live in California, right, You've got those

939
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 4: beautiful beaches the further north. You go up on those

940
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 4: beaches up toward Carmel in that area, you've got those

941
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 4: beautiful rocks and the stones that kind of line the

942
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 4: walls there. Well, that's a very if you think about

943
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 4: on microscopic cross section, there are many items like a

944
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 4: wooden table that if you cut them, it'll look like

945
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 4: those stones on the beach. It's very uneven. And just

946
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 4: think about a tiny droplet flying through the air and

947
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 4: maybe topping topping the hill or the rise on that

948
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 4: surface and then going down into a valley and then

949
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 4: tumbling over. It's going to change the dynamic of that

950
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 4: blood distribution. Okay, So whereas with a smooth surface, you

951
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 4: might have one droplet, but if you're on kind of

952
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 4: a non smooth surface, as it strips it, it very

953
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 4: well might particulate that blood even further and that can

954
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 4: kind of throw some of your estimates off.

955
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 5: Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Buddy move in here with Courtney

956
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 5: Armstrong and Jessice M Morgan, and we're right in the

957
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:10,280
Speaker 5: middle of talking about how forensic investigators analyze blood spatter

958
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 5: and how that helps them put together the pieces of

959
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 5: the puzzle of what happened at the crime scene. And

960
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 5: we want to hear from you, so hit us up

961
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 5: on the talk past Joseph. We were talking about these

962
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 5: porous materials and how it affects the analysis that these

963
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 5: crime scene investigators will look at. And we mentioned a

964
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 5: duvet and whatnot. What about leather? This is going to

965
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 5: play into.

966
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 4: My next Okay, I gotcha. Yeah, leather depended upon how

967
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 4: how refined the leather is. Okay, Like if you have

968
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 4: if you have a belt, for instance, and it's the

969
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 4: leather belt, one side of the belt is going to

970
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 4: be rather refined, right, you know, that's the pretty side,

971
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 4: the side that you want to display all.

972
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 5: Right, outside of the jacket you have it, okay.

973
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's flipping over and you've got

974
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 4: that it almost looks like swede, you know, it's rough

975
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 4: more rough. Yeah, And so that's that is the poorous surface,

976
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 4: a true poor surface. Now, the outer portion of the

977
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 4: of the dependent upon how the belt is treated in

978
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 4: the factory, and the outer portion is still going to

979
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 4: be poors. It's not like glass or even a stone.

980
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 4: Like if people have h marble countertops or a beautiful,

981
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 4: beautiful area to distribute blood on because they're so very smooth.

982
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 4: But if you've got wooden cabinets that are adjacent to

983
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 4: it that are kind of rough hewn, perhaps that's going

984
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 4: to affect it. And even a painted surface is not

985
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 4: as preferable as like a mirror, which is definitely non porous,

986
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 4: or certainly stone marble, that sort of thing.

987
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 6: Definitely, I've been thinking about just the Ellen Greenberg case always.

988
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 7: I think test stuck with all of us.

989
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 6: And she was the school teacher in Philadelphia who it's

990
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 6: very controversial whether she was murdered or it was a suicide.

991
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 6: And I remember there was a detail about the direction

992
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 6: of blood droplets on her and how they could tell

993
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 6: that maybe her body was moved posthumously based on the

994
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 6: direction of the blood.

995
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 7: What can you tell me about that.

996
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 4: I'm glad you brought that out, area, because that is

997
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 4: that's a marker that we look to. This called gravitational

998
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 4: blood flow. Let me give you a brief prom er

999
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 4: on that and then we'll talk about Ellen. So you've

1000
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 4: got if you've got gravitational blood flow, just think about

1001
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 4: a large bit of blood that has been deposited on

1002
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 4: a wall. Okay, if you just think about a big

1003
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 4: droplet that strikes the wall, well over a period of time,

1004
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 4: that blood doesn't instantaneously dry up, right, it kind of pulls.

1005
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 4: You've seen it with other substances. It's just that blood

1006
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:54,919
Speaker 4: is red and it's viscous, which means kind of thick

1007
00:57:54,960 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 4: compared to water, and so you get this gravitational pull

1008
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 4: on that droplet that will drain it down. It's going

1009
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 4: to seek just like water, It's going to seek the

1010
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 4: lowest point of gravity. Okay. Well, in Ellen's case, one

1011
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 4: of the things that we have is the horizontal blood flow,

1012
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 4: all right, that when she seated up and I can't

1013
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 4: remember now, I think it's on the right aspect of

1014
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 4: her cheek. You have a blood stream that is going

1015
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 4: parallel to her shoulders, over her ear, Okay. And so

1016
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 4: what they believe is that at one point time she

1017
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 4: was probably in a soupine or a modified supine position,

1018
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 4: which means on her back are kind of on her side,

1019
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 4: blood leached out and it was seeking. Like we said,

1020
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 4: here we go the lowest point of gravity, and so

1021
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 4: or you know that that bottom portion is going gravity

1022
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 4: is pulling it down, and at some point in time

1023
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 4: she was repositioned, so she's leaning against the cabintry at

1024
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 4: that point, and it's really striking. I'll go ahead and

1025
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 4: tell you guys, I've actually seen the real image of this,

1026
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 4: not some computer generated things. And so when you see this,

1027
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 4: you appreciate directionality here, the directionality of you know, it

1028
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 4: really is a head scratcher, because some bright person that

1029
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 4: saw this initially said, this just doesn't make sense relatives

1030
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 4: to what we know about the nature of blood, how

1031
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 4: it's deposited, and what happens afterwards, because it's not just

1032
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 4: the flight and the impact. You know, blood just like

1033
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 4: any other watery substance, said, you know, it takes on

1034
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 4: a life of its own after a period of time

1035
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 4: until it dries in place, and that can change. It

1036
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 4: can change either by body positionality. It can change because

1037
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 4: people move bodies around, which is a transfer pattern, people

1038
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 4: dragging bodies, people rolling bodies over. Uh, you know, you're

1039
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 4: you're going to get these various presentations that are that

1040
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 4: can in fact mask the initial traumatic event like an

1041
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 4: impact on somebody, where you get that initial blast of

1042
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 4: blood and deposition. But after a period of time, certain

1043
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 4: things can happen with the body depending upon how the

1044
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 4: body is either treated in nature or how the body

1045
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 4: is either treated by one of our fellow human beings.

1046
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 5: Wow.

1047
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 6: So the wow I didn't realize that about the Ellen case,

1048
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 6: that it was parallel to the ground.

1049
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 5: That's insane, that that would imply she was right like

1050
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 5: down like.

1051
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 4: Or modified modified in some way. Yeah. You know. Another

1052
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 4: thing about blood as well is that uh and this

1053
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 4: is this is something that will kill everybody to the bone.

1054
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 4: It always did for me for some reason. And that

1055
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 4: that handprints in blood and because you know, I've got

1056
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 4: a bit of the philosopher in men, and it goes

1057
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 4: beyond science with me. When I see handprints and blood,

1058
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 4: it gives you an idea of that person's last moments

1059
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 4: in life or what the perpetrator was doing at that

1060
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 4: moment in time, whether you have that evidence that kind

1061
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 4: of is frozen in time. All right. So if you

1062
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 4: see if you see, for instance, you know, somebody that

1063
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 4: places their hand on something, or they're trying to open

1064
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 4: a door, you know, actually in a door knob or

1065
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 4: flipping a white switch, and that handprint is there, or

1066
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 4: somebody has grabbed their throat to try to stem bleeding,

1067
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 4: for instance, you can literally see their handprints. One thing

1068
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 4: in closing, something that will always stick with me is

1069
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 4: that there was this poor little lady that was that

1070
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 4: was being abused by her husband. He would whip her

1071
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 4: with a belt every day. And he came home and

1072
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 4: passed out. After he got drunk. She had had enough.

1073
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 4: He whipped her right before that, hit her with a

1074
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 4: buckle of the belt, and after he had passed out,

1075
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 4: And so she went and got a steak knife and

1076
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 4: she drove it into his back multiple times as he

1077
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 4: was passed out. And as he's passed out there you

1078
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 4: could see where she had placed her hand to hold

1079
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 4: him in place, in his own blood, and she had

1080
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 4: driven the knife over and over and she broke the

1081
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 4: blade off in his body.

1082
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 5: Oh my goodness. Well, coming up, we're going to be

1083
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 5: putting our new knowledge to the test. What can we

1084
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 5: learn from the blood found at the Idaho student murders

1085
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 5: Romcy keep it here for drunking.

1086
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 2: This is true crime today.

1087
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 3: We are on iHeart Radio and we are talking true

1088
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 3: crime all the time.

1089
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Armstrong.

1090
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 3: I'm here with my buddy Boddy Move in and it

1091
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 3: is Scientific Sunday and we're so thrilled to be here

1092
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 3: with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

1093
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 2: Don't forget if you missed any part.

1094
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 3: Of the show, you can always get the podcast and

1095
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 3: always we want to hear from you. You can always

1096
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 3: call us eight eight eight three to one. Crime Joseph

1097
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 3: is ready here for any of your forensic questions, or

1098
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 3: get with us on socials. We are at True Crime

1099
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 3: Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight

1100
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 3: on Facebook. Later in the show we will be hearing

1101
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 3: a lot more from you. But right now we are

1102
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 3: putting our new knowledge of blood deposition that we just

1103
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 3: learned in our crime lab from Joseph Scott Morgan.

1104
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 2: We're putting it to use. Body.

1105
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 3: What have you learned from the recent dump of forensic

1106
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 3: inspiration about the Idaho student murders. I know you've been

1107
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 3: chomping at the bit to talk to Joseph.

1108
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 5: I have, and I'm so excited, Joseph that you're here.

1109
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 5: And I'm about to either make myself look really smart

1110
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 5: or very stupid in front of a man I respect.

1111
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 5: So keep that in mind that I'm going on the law. Yeah. So,

1112
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 5: over twenty three hundred pages of new forensic information regarding

1113
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 5: the Idaho student murders has been released to the public,

1114
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 5: and it covers topics from DNA testing to blood spatter

1115
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 5: it's called the Idaho State Police Forensic Services case jacket.

1116
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 5: As a reminder, on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, four

1117
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 5: University of students were fatally stabbed in an off campus

1118
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 5: house in Moscow, Idaho. Six weeks later, then twenty eight

1119
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 5: year old Brian Coberger, a Washington State University PhD student,

1120
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 5: was arrested and charged with their murders. After pleading guilty

1121
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 5: on July second of this year, to avoid the death penalty,

1122
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 5: he was sentenced to three weeks later to four consecutive

1123
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 5: life terms without role plus ten years for burglary. Now

1124
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 5: here's the information on the case jacket. In the case

1125
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 5: jacket that was released, there's photos of the knife sheath,

1126
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 5: and this the laboratory. The laboratory tech that took these

1127
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 5: photos and made the notes, I think did an excellent

1128
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 5: job of noting everything that she did and outlining the

1129
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 5: areas that she swamped and if they were orthrotoltin positive

1130
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 5: or not. And it's a very interesting area of this

1131
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 5: document if you want to go look at I think

1132
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 5: it starts around page seven hundred or so of this

1133
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 5: document if you want to just jump to it. The sheath.

1134
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 5: This is the first time we're seeing it, right, I mean,

1135
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 5: we haven't seen the sheath until now. And the sheath

1136
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 5: was initially found on the bed closer to under Maddie's

1137
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 5: like I want to say, torso area like above her

1138
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 5: hip is from what I'm understanding, kind of down by

1139
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 5: her hip, I would say. And we can see from

1140
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 5: some of the photos that you know, there's not a

1141
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 5: lot of blood spatter on this knife sheath, okay. And

1142
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 5: we can also tell from other crime scene photos of

1143
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 5: Madison Mogan's room the bed wasn't like covered in blood, okay.

1144
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 5: So there's areas of the bed that look completely clean, okay,

1145
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 5: And that's going to happen. So all the blood spatter

1146
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 5: on the sheath that we can see is focused on

1147
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 5: the back part of the sheath, not the front part.

1148
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 5: Is what I'm going to be calling where you deposit

1149
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 5: the sheath and where the button snap is. The back

1150
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 5: part of the sheath is the area that we can

1151
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 5: see some of the blood spattered, and that implies that

1152
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 5: the sheath was laying face down on the bed when

1153
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 5: attacks may have occurred. Okay. And you can see I'm

1154
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 5: looking at the picture right now, it's very very tiny,

1155
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 5: tiny drops. Ok These are very very small, I would

1156
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 5: say pinhead size, Okay, and there's maybe, I don't know,

1157
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 5: fifteen of them. I haven't counted them. I'm gonna say

1158
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 5: maybe fifteen of them. And looking closely at the bloodstains,

1159
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 5: we can see how small they are. And so in

1160
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 5: order for this blood to travel as far as it

1161
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 5: would have had to, okay, it can't, it has to

1162
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:04,560
Speaker 5: be have some force behind it, right, it has to

1163
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:08,480
Speaker 5: have pressure of some kind. And so what I'm guessing,

1164
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 5: and this is a complete guess, is that this is

1165
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 5: expirated blood. And we know from the laboratory notes and

1166
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 5: the you know, the the kind of things that have

1167
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 5: come out, that it was primarily Kaylee consolvast blood. She

1168
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 5: was the major contributor and Madison Mogan was the secondary contributor,

1169
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 5: a minor contributor.

1170
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 13: So I'm expiated means, yeah, it's maybe uh you you

1171
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 13: maybe if you get stabbed in your lung, let's say,

1172
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 13: and you have blood bleeding into your lung and you

1173
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 13: are coughing, or or maybe uh, you get.

1174
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 5: Hit in the nose and you blow and this could

1175
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 5: this could happen in an attack I'm being I mean,

1176
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 5: this is very nitty gritty stuff, right, and you blow

1177
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 5: or you you cough, That would be expiated blood. Is

1178
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 5: that correct?

1179
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 7: It's being expelled from your body.

1180
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's being expelled.

1181
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 4: Just like an expelled Yeah. Yeah, yeah, as opposed to

1182
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 4: uh we we hear the term aspirated many atoms and

1183
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 4: uh for medical professionals out there, and I know we've

1184
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 4: we've got a lot of listeners and friends out there

1185
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 4: that are in medicine. You guys are very familiar with aspiration.

1186
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 4: There's actually a condition called aspiration pneumonia that the elderly developed.

1187
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 4: You'll have people that will you know, kind of uh,

1188
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 4: aspirate food. You'll take it in, okay, and I'll get

1189
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 4: into their their airway. But yeah, right to our body.

1190
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 4: About the the expirated uh if the airway I'm.

1191
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 5: Sorry, I'm seizing, Please go, please continue?

1192
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 4: Oh okay, no, all right, the if the airway is

1193
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 4: compromised in any way and you've got this kind of

1194
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:02,680
Speaker 4: you've got this kind of regurgitation in the airway that

1195
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 4: goes on where the blood is actually projected, that's expiration.

1196
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 4: Fascinating thing about expiated blood, Unlike like arterial arterial spray.

1197
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 4: You know that you hear that in conjunction with like

1198
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,520
Speaker 4: clipping a karate it in the neck or the brachial

1199
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 4: in the in the arm, is that this has got

1200
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 4: a tremendous amount of force to it, and you'll get

1201
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 4: these kind of tiny little satellite droplets, you know, that

1202
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 4: will impact an area. Guys, I've actually seen expiated blood

1203
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 4: that looks like well, first off, it looks like sometimes

1204
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 4: it can look like high velocity blood deposition, okay, from

1205
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,679
Speaker 4: a rifle or a pangun, but you know now seen

1206
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 4: it before on a wall where it actually looks like

1207
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 4: a grape juice stain. The reason that looks that way

1208
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 4: is that the droplets are so tiny they will kind

1209
01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 4: of converge and it's like watching it. It's like looking

1210
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,640
Speaker 4: there's that famous kind of impressionist painting that's done with

1211
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 4: the dots. Have you ever seen that? Yeah? Yeah, and

1212
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 4: just thousands of these dots. It would have driven me

1213
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 4: crazy pain something like that. I can't pay that. That

1214
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 4: would have really driven me craze. So you'll get those

1215
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 4: concentrations like that, and that's that's kind of fascinating. But

1216
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,799
Speaker 4: you bring up an interesting point body about the sheath,

1217
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 4: because you've got these little satellite droplets. And one thing

1218
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 4: I didn't mention, one thing I did not mention in

1219
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 4: our little lecture that we did tonight, is that when

1220
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 4: you have projected blood many times, you will have a

1221
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:47,560
Speaker 4: tail on the blood so it does not come down perfectly,

1222
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 4: and the tail always points in the direction of flight. Okay,

1223
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 4: when I see these droplets, and again, this is a

1224
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is considered to be a

1225
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 4: first generation photograph that I'm looking at, but that is released,

1226
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 4: and this this tranche of documents that came out. When

1227
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:06,040
Speaker 4: I'm looking at this body, I don't know how you

1228
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:07,760
Speaker 4: feel that. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

1229
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:11,640
Speaker 4: These dropolets don't have tails on them. They look like

1230
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:15,599
Speaker 4: tiny little droplets that almost like you know, you talked

1231
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:17,200
Speaker 4: about the head of a pin and it looks like it

1232
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:22,679
Speaker 4: has dripped. It's the tip of a pin and they're

1233
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 4: that and they're sparse, they're all over the place.

1234
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 5: They are.

1235
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,840
Speaker 4: It could be expirated blood, but the dynamics of how

1236
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 4: this would have had to have happened would be fascinating

1237
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:31,919
Speaker 4: to understand.

1238
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's still I mean, it still

1239
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 5: could be an impact, right, like it still could be

1240
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 5: from an impact, but the way it was positioned and

1241
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,120
Speaker 5: the you know, it was positioned face up, I'm assuming

1242
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 5: you know, I'm making a big assumption that it was

1243
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 5: found face down. I'm sorry, face down down right, and

1244
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 5: this aspiration or I'm sorry, expiration had occurred, uh and

1245
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 5: primarily from Kayley with a minor And I have a

1246
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 5: feeling that this is the the satellite, like you said,

1247
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 5: like if if you imagine the center of the gall

1248
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:09,719
Speaker 5: the Solar system being the Sun where it's really big,

1249
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:11,719
Speaker 5: and then as it gets out, you know, the planets

1250
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 5: get smaller and smaller until you hit you better, really

1251
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:16,919
Speaker 5: and then they get smaller. Way these are those satellite planets.

1252
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 5: They're very small and sparse. I have a feeling that

1253
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,680
Speaker 5: when the sheath was removed from the bed there was

1254
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 5: kind of an outline, very very sparse outline of the sheath.

1255
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 4: And that I'll tell you what if we could and

1256
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 4: I don't think these documents have been released, but that

1257
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 4: would be of note. Okay, I don't know that we'll

1258
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 4: ever get to see that the actual descriptor of the

1259
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:43,760
Speaker 4: crime sam itself, because we don't know how many of

1260
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 4: these dumps there's going to be I don't know how

1261
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 4: you guys feel about it. I was surprised. I was

1262
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:54,799
Speaker 4: absolutely surprised, not necessarily that there was a document release,

1263
01:12:54,920 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 4: it's just the volume. All of us sat around, Oh

1264
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 4: my lord, how are we going to go through all

1265
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 4: of this? There's certain people going up, Oh.

1266
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I mean there's yeah, you know, over two

1267
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 3: thousand pages. This is true crime tonight, and we are

1268
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:13,719
Speaker 3: talking true crime all the time. We've been talking about

1269
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 3: the forensics of the Idaho student murder crime scene. If

1270
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 3: you would like to weigh in with your thoughts, give

1271
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 3: us a call eight at eight to three to one

1272
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 3: crime or hit us on the talk pack message. And

1273
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 3: right now Joseph Scott Morgan is going through the details

1274
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 3: of this document. Dumb body, Did you have anything up

1275
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:34,799
Speaker 3: next that you wanted to get into.

1276
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,519
Speaker 5: One thing I thought that was interesting was just how

1277
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 5: great of notes that this lab tech took. I thought

1278
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 5: she did a great job. When when you see it

1279
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 5: the picture of the knife face up, okay, you can

1280
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 5: see the button snap okay, And this button snap is

1281
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 5: so critically important to this entire case, like it all

1282
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 5: comes fielded this button snap, right, that's where they found

1283
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,680
Speaker 5: this unknown male DNA and the lab tech if you

1284
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 5: look at the photos, she says, okay, these are areas

1285
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 5: that I swabbed, and she polar codes them. So, for instance,

1286
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 5: the button snap is item one dot one and she

1287
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 5: outlines it in purple. Okay, so and she calls this

1288
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 5: to handle portion and then uh, and then she swabs

1289
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 5: and then she starts swabbing the edge, all the edges,

1290
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:27,080
Speaker 5: and everything's polar coded. So she makes just great notes.

1291
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 5: And I kind of wanted to read what, uh the

1292
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 5: lab results were for item one dot one, which was

1293
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:36,679
Speaker 5: the button snap and what eventually ended up being Brian

1294
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,599
Speaker 5: Coberger's DNA if that was a So what it says

1295
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,839
Speaker 5: is item one dot one. Again, this is a swab

1296
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 5: of the front strap, the button snap area. There was

1297
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 5: no blood. The DNA from one dot one. The DNA

1298
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 5: profile obtained from item one dot one was determined to

1299
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 5: be from an unknown male Ethan Chapin. And then and

1300
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 5: then there's an area blacked out and and another area

1301
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 5: blacked out. I'm guessing those are two other names that

1302
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 5: they excluded. It says Ethan Chapin redacted redacted are not

1303
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:12,560
Speaker 5: the source of DNA. And this item. This DNA profile

1304
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:16,600
Speaker 5: was entered into the Combined DNA Index System CODIS to

1305
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,400
Speaker 5: be routinely searched against this against the database, the case

1306
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 5: agency will be notified in the event of a profile match. Well, again,

1307
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:27,680
Speaker 5: Brian Coberger didn't really have a criminal history, so he

1308
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 5: wasn't in Cotis, so there was no match. But it

1309
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,640
Speaker 5: clearly says there that Ethan and two other men that

1310
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 5: probably they suspected were excluded. And then it goes on

1311
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:41,280
Speaker 5: to explain the other either the other swab areas, and

1312
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:44,680
Speaker 5: those are the edges on the handle portion of the

1313
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 5: knife sheath. And then one dot three is the edges

1314
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 5: on the blade portion of the knife sheath. And then

1315
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 5: item one dot four are the stains, the bloodstains on

1316
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 5: the back of the knife sheath. Okay, And I wanted

1317
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 5: to read that because this has been a thing that's

1318
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 5: been coming up and I I want to be clear

1319
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:04,839
Speaker 5: about it. The DNA profile attained from item one dot four. Again,

1320
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:07,719
Speaker 5: this is the blood on the back of the sheath. Okay.

1321
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 5: One dot four indicates a mixture of DNA with a

1322
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 5: major profile which matches that obtained from the known reference

1323
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 5: sample of Hailey consolves Madison Mogan is a potential contributor

1324
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:26,640
Speaker 5: to the minor component of this mixture. Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle,

1325
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:31,680
Speaker 5: and then there's redacted information are excluded as contributors to

1326
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 5: this DNA mixture. So to be clear, the only two

1327
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:40,160
Speaker 5: victims had that had DNA on this knife sheath were,

1328
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:44,720
Speaker 5: in fact Kaylee and Maddie. Xana and Ethan are excluded

1329
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 5: from this. So there's no blood from Xana or Ethan

1330
01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 5: or any other DNA on this knife sheet that belonging

1331
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:50,719
Speaker 5: to anybody else.

1332
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 6: So what's the implication there?

1333
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 5: There is no implication, but there has been things that

1334
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,879
Speaker 5: have people have said that all four victims were.

1335
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:07,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, it does go to exclusion, and that's the most important.

1336
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 4: You can't say, okay, we cannot sit here and say,

1337
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 4: based upon the n I sheet that the n I

1338
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,559
Speaker 4: sheet did not move, okay, But what we can say

1339
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 4: is that because of the absence of those profiles that

1340
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:26,960
Speaker 4: were excluded, we can assume Ethan was excluded, and we

1341
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:31,000
Speaker 4: have Xenna that was excluded, and we're talking about the

1342
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 4: sheet itself right there. You know, the idea was that

1343
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 4: somebody had foisted this idea that you know, those those

1344
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,320
Speaker 4: elements were on there and they weren't. They weren't there,

1345
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 4: So that means that that sheep may very well have

1346
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 4: been in a static position out there in that room

1347
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 4: and it never moved from there.

1348
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:51,479
Speaker 10: Right.

1349
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:54,880
Speaker 3: Thank you, Joseph, Yeah, thank you so much for helping

1350
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:59,200
Speaker 3: clarify and shed light and really just pinpoint what all

1351
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:02,520
Speaker 3: of this information means in actual terms we can understand.

1352
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:03,800
Speaker 2: We thank you.

1353
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 3: As always, Sunday is our collective favorite night and we

1354
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 3: are so happy to share it with.

1355
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 2: You and listen.

1356
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 3: If you like getting into the forensic nitty gritty of

1357
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:20,719
Speaker 3: true crime cases, please check out Joseph's amazing podcast, Body Bags,

1358
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:25,919
Speaker 3: and also you can find Joseph at Joseph Scott Morgan

1359
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,639
Speaker 3: on Instagram and give us a call if you want

1360
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:31,479
Speaker 3: to chat. In the next segment, eight to day through

1361
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 3: on Crime, we are talking True crime all the time

1362
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 3: by Joseph. This is True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We

1363
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 3: are talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong

1364
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:58,840
Speaker 3: here with Body Boot. Joseph Scott Morgan has left the building.

1365
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:00,679
Speaker 2: But he will be back on Sunday.

1366
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 3: Don't forget if you missed any part of the show,

1367
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:06,080
Speaker 3: just catch the podcast, and we want to hear from you.

1368
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:09,519
Speaker 3: We're at eight of eight three one crime and let's

1369
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:11,440
Speaker 3: actually go right to a talkback.

1370
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 14: Okay, this is Drey and Newtag again. You guys. Now

1371
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,760
Speaker 14: you're on to talking about a talk back where how

1372
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:20,719
Speaker 14: did you get into true crime or whatnot? And Courtney

1373
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,000
Speaker 14: brought up, Hey, scar Putto, which is the character in

1374
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 14: Prituia Cornwell books. Love them, Love them, love them. But

1375
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:30,559
Speaker 14: a little fun fact. Unless I'm wrong, and I could

1376
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,679
Speaker 14: be remembering this wrong, but I don't think I am.

1377
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 14: If I remember right, Patricia Cornwell was a medical examiner.

1378
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:39,040
Speaker 14: So I'm going to look it up. You guys can

1379
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:40,799
Speaker 14: go look it up. Reconvene tomorrow.

1380
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 5: Okay, you're going to have to talk to me about

1381
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:46,240
Speaker 5: who this is Patricia Cornwall.

1382
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:52,280
Speaker 3: Okay, I she's an author, Okay, and she wrote these

1383
01:19:52,439 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 3: books and they actually were like her main character was

1384
01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 3: Case Scarpetta, who was a medical examiner, as our girl

1385
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 3: just said in the talk back, and she was not

1386
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,799
Speaker 3: actually AVA can double check me, but to my knowledge

1387
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 3: she was not, in fact a medical examiner.

1388
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 2: Herself is a Cornwell.

1389
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:16,280
Speaker 3: But she wrote these books, these novels that are so

1390
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:20,639
Speaker 3: scientifically saturated. You'd actually, I think you'd really enjoy body.

1391
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 3: Oh they started. I used to gobble them up. And

1392
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 3: they were originally inspired by the series of really sensational

1393
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:33,439
Speaker 3: murders that happened in Richmond, Virginia. Most of her stories

1394
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:36,600
Speaker 3: are set there. She's the chief medical examiner, but you

1395
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 3: also get deeply into the investigation of these crimes. Oh,

1396
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 3: I'd love that for Yeah. First one is post mortem.

1397
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 3: Second one's body of evidence, top of my head. And

1398
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,440
Speaker 3: there's a bunch and they're all rich and fabulous.

1399
01:20:49,479 --> 01:20:52,639
Speaker 5: And I used to love to read. I would read

1400
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:55,120
Speaker 5: all the time, and then I don't know what happened.

1401
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:57,680
Speaker 5: But I barely have time anymore, and so I'm like, well,

1402
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 5: I'll listen to audiobooks. Well, you know, I live of

1403
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 5: like ten minutes for my write work, so I don't

1404
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:06,000
Speaker 5: really have like a commute, right, so I don't really

1405
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 5: have the opportunity to listen to an audiobook or read.

1406
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 5: So it's like, maybe while I'm just sitting there at

1407
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 5: work and whatnot, I can maybe listen to an audible

1408
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 5: or something, because that sounds right at my alley.

1409
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:18,600
Speaker 2: It's really it's excellent.

1410
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:25,600
Speaker 15: And she herself was not a medical examiner. Okay, she

1411
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 15: studied English, she was a writer, but I guess she

1412
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,639
Speaker 15: just had an amazing knowledge of forensic science.

1413
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 3: And yeah, well what I just pulled up, which I'm

1414
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,960
Speaker 3: not sure this is right, but I'm seeing that she

1415
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 3: actually did work at the Virginia Medical Examiner's office, and

1416
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:45,440
Speaker 3: it was as a technical writer and a computer analyst

1417
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 3: for those six years.

1418
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 5: So it's kind of like me, I'm an analyst for

1419
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:53,720
Speaker 5: a casino, and while I don't operate the games, you know,

1420
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 5: I know a lot about gaming. So she might have

1421
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:59,799
Speaker 5: learned a lot about medical being in a medical examiner

1422
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:02,640
Speaker 5: by doing the data analysis and writing these reports.

1423
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it seems like that part of her experience

1424
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:10,600
Speaker 3: was observing some autopsies. But the character that she I

1425
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:14,839
Speaker 3: don't have to do that created. Do you with the gaming?

1426
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 3: Do you watch video I'm not being physicatious. Do you

1427
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 3: watch videos of people playing poker?

1428
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:21,520
Speaker 2: Or no?

1429
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 5: Okay, I just analyzed the data that comes from like

1430
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 5: the game, the slot machines and like got it. Like

1431
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 5: if you're if you're playing a blackjack, let's say how

1432
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 5: many bets per hand? You you do? Your average bet?

1433
01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 5: And things like yeah, where you live and then you

1434
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 5: correlate that with public big data to say how much

1435
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:40,479
Speaker 5: you're worth.

1436
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 7: Wow, so interesting.

1437
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 2: That's not well dress.

1438
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:50,240
Speaker 5: To me, this is interesting. Okay, So yeah, let's.

1439
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:56,200
Speaker 3: Well, Drey, thank you so much, thank you, thank you.

1440
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:56,920
Speaker 5: Let's do it.

1441
01:22:57,439 --> 01:23:00,519
Speaker 16: Hello, it's a Leah. Just to follow up, and yes,

1442
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 16: I was talking about coburger with the diet in jail comment.

1443
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 2: I more mean, like.

1444
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:11,160
Speaker 16: If it's an eating disorder, you do need to treat it,

1445
01:23:11,200 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 16: but you're not just going to treat it by only

1446
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 16: catering to what they want to eat. You need to

1447
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:19,440
Speaker 16: treat it psychologically and basically give them a much limited

1448
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 16: choice of foods that they can have. One more clarification

1449
01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:26,640
Speaker 16: to add to my opinion on the coburger eating in

1450
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:30,360
Speaker 16: jail situation. I was listening to the color and about

1451
01:23:30,360 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 16: our fit and her having a son. Now, when I

1452
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:36,560
Speaker 16: was raised, they didn't diagnose girls with things like autism

1453
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:39,799
Speaker 16: and ar fin and all this stuff. But I'm pretty

1454
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 16: sure I have something like that, or I know I

1455
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:48,479
Speaker 16: have severe, severe food anxiety, to the point where I

1456
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 16: could actually end up in complete tears and not eating

1457
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,719
Speaker 16: at all if I can't decide on something to eat

1458
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:58,360
Speaker 16: or the options that I have aren't appetizing to me

1459
01:23:58,479 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 16: or I don't want them. And it was a constant

1460
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,639
Speaker 16: fight with my parents to make me eat food when

1461
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:06,720
Speaker 16: I was a kid. So I totally get it, and

1462
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 16: I still have the opinion that I have. Thanks you, guys,

1463
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:11,360
Speaker 16: I love you so much.

1464
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:12,799
Speaker 2: Alia.

1465
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry that you're struggling with the food though.

1466
01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 5: And you know what's interesting is I have a little

1467
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:20,800
Speaker 5: bit of knowledge about this, Alia, is that women, you

1468
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 5: know you were talking about, they don't really diagnose women

1469
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 5: with these things. You know, well back then they were

1470
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:32,080
Speaker 5: observing us as women and putting on how you know

1471
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 5: men react, Well, guess what, women react differently? Women? We

1472
01:24:37,240 --> 01:24:40,519
Speaker 5: present differently with these things, like if the autism and

1473
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:42,160
Speaker 5: maybe even are fit. I'm not sure, but I know

1474
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:45,439
Speaker 5: for autism in ADHD for sure, because when she told

1475
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:49,439
Speaker 5: me fifteen years ago that I had aspergers, I was like,

1476
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 5: a pardon me what? Because alls I could think of

1477
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:54,960
Speaker 5: was rain man. You know what I mean? Women present

1478
01:24:55,120 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 5: differently Now. It's called autism spectrum disorder because the asper

1479
01:25:00,400 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 5: is a really bad connotation. So it's autism spectrum disorder.

1480
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 5: And you could have knocked me over with a like

1481
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:10,560
Speaker 5: a feather. I was like, what are you talking about.

1482
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 5: It's because women present differently, So make sure that if

1483
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,479
Speaker 5: you think that you have something that you press your doctors,

1484
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:20,320
Speaker 5: because they're judging you based on how men present. Very

1485
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 5: interesting to know that I had no idea anyway. Yes,

1486
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:26,760
Speaker 5: you're right, I'm just going on a tangent. You're right.

1487
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:28,840
Speaker 5: It is going to be important for Brian Coberg to

1488
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,280
Speaker 5: have some kind of exposure therapy, right, Like, he's got

1489
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:35,080
Speaker 5: this this eating disorder, and I do think exposing him

1490
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 5: to the foods that, you know, maybe he's adverse to

1491
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:42,840
Speaker 5: would help. But I think just putting in a tray

1492
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:45,840
Speaker 5: of food that he won't eat is just not going

1493
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:47,760
Speaker 5: to help. That's just my opinion though, but I do

1494
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:48,639
Speaker 5: respect your opinion.

1495
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and thanks for calling in and sharing that information.

1496
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 3: We really appreciate it. Shelly Hear another talk back.

1497
01:25:57,320 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, Hi True Crime tonight. This is Christine Grand Alberta, Canada.

1498
01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:05,839
Speaker 9: I am not wearing my hot dog costume today. Listening

1499
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 9: to your most recent podcast, I have somehow adopted bodies

1500
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:17,920
Speaker 9: terms of willy nilly and any who. And my year

1501
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 9: old son said, where are you getting this term willy

1502
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:23,679
Speaker 9: nilly from? Why are you saying it all the time?

1503
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 9: I had to laugh.

1504
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:26,720
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh. You know what that reminds me of?

1505
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 2: That's a riot? Yes, what are you guys?

1506
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 5: Did any of you guys watch Seinfeld?

1507
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:30,960
Speaker 2: Yes?

1508
01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 5: Yes, Okay, so there's an episode. There's an episode where

1509
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:38,719
Speaker 5: George breaks up with his girlfriend because she YadA yada's sex. Okay,

1510
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,760
Speaker 5: what that means is she she said, you know, I

1511
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,000
Speaker 5: was talking to Joe and then YadA YadA. I woke

1512
01:26:45,080 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 5: up the next morning. Anyway, it irritated him, so he

1513
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:49,840
Speaker 5: broke up with her. And Elaine was like, oh, I've

1514
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:53,200
Speaker 5: done that before. YadA YadA is something. Anyway, I picked

1515
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:56,599
Speaker 5: that up from Seinfeld, and so I've done that too,

1516
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 5: where people say things and I just get just I

1517
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:02,200
Speaker 5: don't know, whatever tickles my fancy and I pick it up. Anyway.

1518
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:04,600
Speaker 5: Welcome to the club of the crazy sayings.

1519
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:08,559
Speaker 2: That's adorable and AnyWho.

1520
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I'm sorry your kids that you've you've got

1521
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 5: onto mind.

1522
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:16,080
Speaker 2: No, it's a riot.

1523
01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 4: There.

1524
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:19,000
Speaker 2: There are worse things to pick up, that is for sure.

1525
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:22,800
Speaker 2: Let's grab another one.

1526
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:27,360
Speaker 17: Right, Okay, guys, I just heard your response to the

1527
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:33,680
Speaker 17: cheese saga that continues. This is Julia from South Carolina,

1528
01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 17: and I think you are extremely mixed up.

1529
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:38,800
Speaker 14: I think you're thinking.

1530
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:44,640
Speaker 17: Of cheese whizz and not cheese. It's really impossible to

1531
01:27:44,960 --> 01:27:54,559
Speaker 17: have an initial stable format. But anyways, try cheese from

1532
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:55,559
Speaker 17: the cold section.

1533
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 5: And here we go again.

1534
01:27:58,720 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 17: Take care.

1535
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:02,960
Speaker 5: Oh gosh, no, you know, here's the thing. The pimento

1536
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 5: cheese that I'm talking about was not in the refrigerator. Okay.

1537
01:28:07,040 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 5: It was in a glass jar with a blue lid,

1538
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:12,920
Speaker 5: and it was pimento cheese. Now it's pub cheese and

1539
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 5: it's not the same, okay, And I understand what you're saying.

1540
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:18,000
Speaker 5: This it's not shelf stable. But guess what. It was

1541
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:20,479
Speaker 5: full of chemicals. It wasn't real pimento cheese, right, you

1542
01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,040
Speaker 5: know what I mean. This isn't real stuff. It's like

1543
01:28:23,080 --> 01:28:25,400
Speaker 5: the the coffee creamer you get that you don't have

1544
01:28:25,439 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 5: to keep in the refrigerator. It's not real, you know

1545
01:28:28,120 --> 01:28:30,040
Speaker 5: what I mean? And so you know what I'm going

1546
01:28:30,120 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 5: to ask if we can post a picture of the

1547
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,040
Speaker 5: pimento cheese jar that I'm talking about on our Instagram.

1548
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,240
Speaker 5: Follow us on our Instagram. At True Crime Tonight's show,

1549
01:28:39,280 --> 01:28:42,600
Speaker 5: I'm going to beg Gabe to post a picture of

1550
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:48,720
Speaker 5: the pimento cheese. I'm talking, that's a blueto exactly what

1551
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:51,559
Speaker 5: is a glass jars? It says pimento cheese on.

1552
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:55,160
Speaker 2: It, right, CARDI absolutely I didn't like.

1553
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 5: I didn't make it up. And listen, it's not shelf

1554
01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:00,280
Speaker 5: stable because it's not real. It's all artificial. But it

1555
01:29:00,360 --> 01:29:02,639
Speaker 5: just tastes so delicious and they don't make Maybe it

1556
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 5: was like maybe there's something in there that causes cancer

1557
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:06,799
Speaker 5: or something. That's why they don't make it anymore.

1558
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:08,600
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, delicious.

1559
01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:09,640
Speaker 5: It was delicious.

1560
01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:12,880
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, this pimento cheese is like the the

1561
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 3: unfurling mystery that we can really is.

1562
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:19,760
Speaker 5: The people that I'm making it up. I'm telling you this.

1563
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:22,280
Speaker 2: Isn't some cheese.

1564
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:24,920
Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, stop there there's one more.

1565
01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:25,720
Speaker 2: Let's hear it.

1566
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:26,160
Speaker 5: Let's hear it.

1567
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:27,559
Speaker 7: Let's just put this to rest.

1568
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 5: Let's let's do it.

1569
01:29:29,479 --> 01:29:29,639
Speaker 10: Well.

1570
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 2: I don't watch you.

1571
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:32,760
Speaker 18: I listened to you every single day at work with

1572
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:37,640
Speaker 18: my headphones, and all this pimento cheese talk made me

1573
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:39,960
Speaker 18: want to try pimento cheese because I've never had it,

1574
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 18: but I found it. I found it by the cream

1575
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 18: cheese in the refrigerated section, and I a still got

1576
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:52,000
Speaker 18: the chicken biscuit crackers, and I can't wait to get

1577
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:52,640
Speaker 18: home and try it.

1578
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 2: Love you guys. Bye?

1579
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:56,599
Speaker 5: Did she did she leave us another one to see

1580
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 5: if she liked it? This is my this is what

1581
01:29:58,280 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 5: I'm looking for. Swiman's lip, your dreams Ione was living

1582
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 5: my dream. I listen, if did you try it? Call

1583
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 5: us back and let us know. Eight at eight thirty

1584
01:30:08,520 --> 01:30:10,639
Speaker 5: one crime. I'm dying to know if you liked it.

1585
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:13,400
Speaker 5: This is this is what I'm craving. The pimento cheese

1586
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 5: in the She didn't get the one I'm looking for

1587
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:18,400
Speaker 5: because my stuff in the fridge, my stuff's on a shelf,

1588
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:21,040
Speaker 5: and the potato chip okay, but they don't make it

1589
01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 5: no more. But that's what I want so bad, the

1590
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:27,120
Speaker 5: pimento cheese, the artificial stuff on the chicken, and the

1591
01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:29,720
Speaker 5: biscuit cracker there it's so delicious. Oh my god, it's

1592
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:30,000
Speaker 5: so good.

1593
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:34,200
Speaker 3: I love that you just heard us talking and how

1594
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 3: pimento cheese has become this, you know, juggernaut is it's

1595
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 3: truly escape to my imagination.

1596
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:41,280
Speaker 2: Yet here we are have.

1597
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 5: The weighted best on the compression bag. Yeah, you just

1598
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 5: you never know what you're going to talk about. That

1599
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:46,680
Speaker 5: taste off. It just do strange thing.

1600
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:50,480
Speaker 3: But I love so much that you heard bodies passion

1601
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:54,280
Speaker 3: and went out And yeah, we really do want to

1602
01:30:54,320 --> 01:30:55,599
Speaker 3: hear what else you got?

1603
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:58,760
Speaker 2: Talk back? Tuesday is coming up. We have two days

1604
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:00,480
Speaker 2: until it. We take yours.

1605
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 3: Obviously, we want to hear from you every day of

1606
01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:06,320
Speaker 3: the week, but particularly Tuesdays, and yeah, we keep them coming.

1607
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 5: And yeah, what do you watch and what do you like?

1608
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:09,640
Speaker 5: Is there a new show that you're watching that we

1609
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:11,280
Speaker 5: need to know about? Is there a case you want

1610
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:14,200
Speaker 5: us to look at? Did you find the pimento cheese

1611
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 5: with the blue top and the glass jar and the

1612
01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:18,920
Speaker 5: potato chip aisle? Let us know, give us a talkback.

1613
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 5: We want to hear from it. We're going to be

1614
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:21,839
Speaker 5: going over all of them on Tuesday.

1615
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 2: Do you know what I watched a part of this weekend?

1616
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:30,760
Speaker 2: Is All Her Fault? Have you guys heard about that?

1617
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:31,400
Speaker 4: No?

1618
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:36,599
Speaker 2: So it's scripted, and where the heck is it on?

1619
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:39,559
Speaker 3: I'm watching it on Peacock, but I'm sure it's on

1620
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:46,639
Speaker 3: something else. And it's a really interesting upper class picture

1621
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 3: anything Nicole Kidman is in sort of if anyone has

1622
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 3: seen Big Little Eyes, which is fun.

1623
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 5: I believe it.

1624
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:57,920
Speaker 3: Okay, that's the pinnacle. All Her Fault is very good.

1625
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:02,240
Speaker 3: But it's really that's the genre, and it's the actors

1626
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:05,600
Speaker 3: are phenomenal. It's the redhead from Succession.

1627
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:07,519
Speaker 2: It's love.

1628
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:13,840
Speaker 3: I want to say Elle Fanning, but I got sucked in. Yeah,

1629
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 3: Sarah Shook, she's the one from Succession. It's Dakota Fanning.

1630
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 3: Excuse me, Michael.

1631
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:27,160
Speaker 5: Pen Oh, oh really, I didn't know that Dakota Fanning.

1632
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:30,960
Speaker 6: They were producers on the Ellen Greenberg documentary that we

1633
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:32,000
Speaker 6: watched for True Crime and chill.

1634
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 5: Oh wow, I didn't know that. They did a good job.

1635
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:36,040
Speaker 7: So wow, they're amazing.

1636
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:39,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, really good.

1637
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 7: I thought that was.

1638
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,920
Speaker 2: But anyway, it was. It was a good watch I got.

1639
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:46,200
Speaker 2: I did not expect to get sucked in.

1640
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,920
Speaker 3: They popped to the top, and I honestly immediately was oh.

1641
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 3: And actually Abby Elliott, who plays an important sister in

1642
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 3: this who also plays a sister on The Bear. So

1643
01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:57,920
Speaker 3: I got sucked in when I saw the people and

1644
01:32:57,960 --> 01:32:59,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, let's find it.

1645
01:32:59,040 --> 01:33:01,479
Speaker 5: Andy and I Indian and I started watching Pluribus on

1646
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,559
Speaker 5: Apple TV. I can't get in there's only two episodes

1647
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,840
Speaker 5: so far, but basically everyone on the planet except for

1648
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:11,200
Speaker 5: like twelve people become a hive mind. We've been invaded.

1649
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:13,120
Speaker 2: Yes, I watched this last night.

1650
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:13,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's good.

1651
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:16,400
Speaker 2: Right, it's the first episode.

1652
01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 5: Totally freaked me out.

1653
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:19,080
Speaker 2: It's so good.

1654
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:20,960
Speaker 5: I watched both of them. It was really good, but

1655
01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:22,479
Speaker 5: it made me feel.

1656
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:24,599
Speaker 7: Guy right.

1657
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:28,439
Speaker 5: Yes, it's vibe breaking back. It takes place, it stops

1658
01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:30,800
Speaker 5: off in New Mexico. It's very breaking that. It is

1659
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:34,680
Speaker 5: so good. I definitely recommend it. But there is a

1660
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:38,080
Speaker 5: horn is that she's so good. She's so good. Better

1661
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:40,640
Speaker 5: calls all and oh yeah, it's excellent. You guys like

1662
01:33:40,680 --> 01:33:43,120
Speaker 5: it's really good. It's called Pluribus on Apple TV. But

1663
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:46,600
Speaker 5: it's a little sci fi, little drama, a little fatalistic,

1664
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:49,800
Speaker 5: but it's interesting. It's very interesting. I love it.

1665
01:33:50,400 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that's a that's yeah, no no, because Eva,

1666
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:00,720
Speaker 3: it is time, my darling, to say good night. And

1667
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:04,800
Speaker 3: we were so glad to have you here and be

1668
01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 3: a little drunk with power in producer taha, see if

1669
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:08,720
Speaker 3: you did a fine.

1670
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:12,200
Speaker 7: Taha say, and palm springs.

1671
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 2: I like it here, Oh my goodness, she's gone for you.

1672
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:19,680
Speaker 3: Well, listen everybody, goodnight, thanks for joining us. And tomorrow

1673
01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:21,760
Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about the mother of nine

1674
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:24,400
Speaker 3: year old Melody Buzzard and her arrest.

1675
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 2: That and much more.

1676
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:29,040
Speaker 3: We've got some Prince Andrew that more true crime tonight,

1677
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:29,719
Speaker 3: Happy Sunday.

1678
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:32,880
Speaker 2: Goodnight,