WEBVTT - External Exam - The Body Farm with Forensic Anthropologist, Dr. Daniel Wescott 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:12.879 Mother Knows Death presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.000 A few weeks ago, on Mother Knows Death, we talked 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.480 about a story where a forensic anthropologist I don't know 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.440 if you heard of this story, but a forensic anthropologist 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.320 shift was shopping at an antique store and they stumbled 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:33.519 across a human skull. And I thought the story was 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:38.000 funny because they said, oh, luckily it was a forensic pathologist, 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.080 and I thought, like, okay, I think that most people, 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.159 even if they didn't have training in forensic pathology, would 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:47.280 know if it was a real human skull or not 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.879 because they're just so specific looking to a human. And 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.400 also on my website, The Grocerroom, we talked about a 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.440 book called Death's Acre, which is about the field of 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.160 forensic anthropology. So I thought it would be awesome today 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:07.640 on the podcast to interview a real forensic anthropologist and 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.039 his name is doctor Daniel Westcott. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:10.560 Welcome. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.080 It's an honor to have you here today. He is 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.280 a professor of anthropology at Texas State University, which has 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:22.440 the largest body farm in the country. And thanks so 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:23.479 much for being here today. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:24.080 Is an honor. 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:26.480 Yeah, thank you, thank you for inviting me. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.080 I anthropology when I was in college in my undergrad 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.680 and I thought it was the coolest class that I 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.200 ever took. I really didn't know about it, and it 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.959 was mostly cultural anthropology, but he touched a little bit 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.760 on a physical anthropology, which I think is a branch 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.280 of what you're doing. So can you describe to us, 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.040 like how what did you originally go to college for 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.200 and how did you even become interested or know about 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:53.760 this field? 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.440 Okay, oh, yeah, So biologically apology is one of the 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:02.480 subdisciplines of anthology. See so culture anthropology obviously looks at 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:08.600 the cultures of people, and archaeology looks at past cultures, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.640 and biological anthology looks at the biology of people. And 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:18.400 we're interested in biological variation and how humans interact with 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:23.359 their environment and with their culture on a biological point 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:28.400 of view. So I've actually always been interested in both. 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:33.960 And so, uh, when I when I when I started college, 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:38.280 I the same thing. I took a four filled course, uh, 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:44.760 in pro course in anthropology, and I it was very 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.440 interested in doing. It wasn't my major or anything like that, 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:52.520 but I was very interested in that fourfilled approach. And 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.680 then so then I took another UH course. But when 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.480 I was taking those courses, there was a the if 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.080 Bulget department had a library attastitute. It's a little small 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.760 student library, and so I would go in there and 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.440 study before class. And one day one of the professors 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:12.800 came in and said, you know, somebody brought in some 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.720 human remains and is there anybody's interested in you know, 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.360 helped me with them, and of course you're like the 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:24.240 Champson that was pretty much. Yes, that was pretty much. 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.960 Yet you know, a week later I changed my major 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.760 and been doing it ever since. 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.880 I love stories like that because I think that everyone 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.880 has this pivotal moment. Well not everyone, I guess, but 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.080 people that are doing really cool jobs and they love 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.760 their job, they have this pivotal moment that they're like, wait, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.600 I'm not in the right thing, and I'm going to 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.120 change over to this right away because this is something 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.480 that feels more right for me. When I was in 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:55.240 PA school, i interned at the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office, 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.720 and that was really the first time I ever had 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.840 kind of a simil situation that happened with you. They 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.760 would from time to time have the police call and say, hey, 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.200 there's bones that are in the woods and we need 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.480 someone to look at them. And they didn't have a 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.800 forensic anthropologist that was there all the time, so when 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:16.800 they had cases like that, they would have to call 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.000 someone in to look at them. But in this particular case, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.240 I'll never forget that there was it was a trash 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.200 bag and the emmy dumped out all the bones onto 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.040 the autopsy table and he said, oh, that's barbecue. It's 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.880 probably pork or something, and didn't even call one of 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.200 you guys to look at it. And I remember thinking 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.800 how cool that was that he could just look at 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.320 bones that fast and know that they weren't human. And 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.400 he explained to us like the weight bearing joints and 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.560 all this different things. But I thought that was really cool. 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.400 So obviously that's one of the jobs that a forensic 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:57.600 anthropologist can have, is working on real cases and being 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.080 a consult But what are what are some other things 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.000 you can do once you go to school and become 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:04.440 a forensic anthropologist. 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.640 Well, so, you know, if if you look at kind 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.120 of modern friends of anthropology, there's a couple of things 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.840 that there's a couple of different approaches, I guess, or 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.400 different tracks that you could go into. So there's obviously 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.120 the academic side, which is where I'm at, where I, 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.479 you know, a college professor and I teach friendsic anthropology, 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:29.279 I do research associated with friendsic anthropology, you know my 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:34.080 and have students and in things of that nature. And 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.160 then there's the side where you have people that are 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.080 on the track where they mainly are focusing on working 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.680 at a medical exeveritor's office. And I know that that 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.760 wasn't was not common in the past, but it is 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.200 becoming more and more common where you have friends againsthropologists 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.120 that are doing casework in the medical exemveritor's office. Not 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.320 only are they doing when there's actually skult or remains, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:02.080 but they're also assisting with like looking at blood force 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:06.760 trauma and actually analyzing the bones even if there's a 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:12.920 plush person the And then the third track I guess 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:18.080 would be working for the government and as a friends 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:26.760 against all. Mainly that's associated with locating and identifying US 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.440 war dead and so, uh, there are a lot of 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.840 people that well that's their their career focuses on, uh, 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:40.919 you know, trying to identify people that died in the 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.640 in different wars, and they got pretty much any war 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.040 as long as the US was involved. 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:46.360 Interesting, I didn't know that. 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:52.680 So you're a professor at Texas State University, and this 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.039 is a question I have. I know that you have 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.680 a doctorate, but can people Are there different levels that 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.760 people we can go to school to work in the 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.480 field of forensic anthropology or do you have to have 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:07.960 a doctor to do that particular career. 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.360 No, you don't have to have a doctor. I would 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:15.840 say that, you know, a large majority of forensic anthabologist 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.200 have a doctor, but not all of by any means. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:23.480 A lot of the investigators that work in medical examiner's offices, 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:29.160 for example, will only have a master's Usually, if you 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.360 don't have at least a you know, some kind of 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.280 a graduate degree, you tend to do more like crime 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.600 scene investigation and you might get involved with you know, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:42.680 the obviously shelter remains in that sense. But same thing 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.400 with the US Army is that, you know, we have 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.040 a lot of our students that have gotten a master's 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:52.720 degree and then gone on to work for the government 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:58.960 with assisting in the identification of war dead. So it's 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.120 possibleVarious levels and then the same thing there, you know, 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:08.120 if you're wanting to go into just teaching. Yep, you 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.160 can get the job, said like community colleges and things, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.440 teaching friends against pology with a master's. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:14.880 Okay, that's that's good to know. 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.960 I like to introduce everyone to all these different jobs 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.240 they can get because I think a lot of people 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.840 just think there's only one thing you can do and 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:26.800 you have to do a lot of education for it. 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.600 And a lot of times, like sometimes I hear from 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.400 young mothers that want to go back to school, but 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.040 they really can't dedicate like eight years of their life 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.400 to go into school, but they do have interest. So 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:41.160 it's nice to know that there's lower levels that people 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.800 can do it. I know that you did get your 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:48.199 doctor from the University of Tennessee and that the book 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.760 that we read this month called Death's Acre was about 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.920 doctor Bill Bess, who created the first body farm. And 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.200 so for everyone listening that doesn't know what a body 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.040 farm is, can you tell us a little bit about that? 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:11.080 Sure? So if they're really kind of decomposition laboratories or 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:15.080 what really was called a taphonomic laboratory book, an outdoor 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:21.480 laboratory uh tefonomy is the study of anything that happened 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.960 to a once living organism from the moment it dies 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:29.559 to the moment it's discovered. Originally, it kind of came 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:34.640 out of paleontology, and the idea was, or the original 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.439 definition actually was from from the biosphere to the lithosphere, 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.520 so basically from a living organism to a bostle. And 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:47.240 the idea was to understand, you know, why you don't 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:52.120 find a complete body, right, what are the processes that 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.560 resulted in that. You know, if you find if you're 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.400 looking at a dinosaur, for example, and you have a 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.319 handful of bones and some teeth and stuff, what happened 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.200 to the rest of it and what were the processes 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:06.520 that occurred there? And so forensic anthopology we're doing the 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.960 same thing. We're just doing the very beginnings of that, right, 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.000 a very shortened version of it. Uh. And so the 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:17.960 idea is is to conduct research that looks at what 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.160 affects the rates of decomposition, uh, if there's anything that 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.920 affects the processes of decomposition. And also you know, to 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:31.120 be able to understand the uh, the scene better to 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:35.160 understand you know, movement of the body, you know, what 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:39.440 causes it to become disarticulated because of it to become spread. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.920 What kind of damage do you have from the from 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.680 the skeleton that might be caused by a tafonomic process 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.760 rather than something that actually had to do with individual's deaths. 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.120 Uh So those are the things that go on in 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:58.520 uh decomposition facilities. The other thing too, is that they 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:04.320 are also a training ground, and so we utilize these 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:10.240 facilities to train law enforcement and medical legal investigators to 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:15.160 where they can actually work with real remains and they 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.240 can we can send up scenarios, you know, or we 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.480 can you know, teach them how to excavate or teach 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.560 them how to locate remains. And it gives them the 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.360 opportunity to learn that. But also if they're going to 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.120 make a mistake, to make a mistake, you know, during 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.440 the training and not in a real life. 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:36.080 Situation, that's interesting because I and then of course the 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.480 other thing. Oh sorry, I was going to say, I 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.520 did my first autopsy on a decomposed person, because they 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.800 were like, listen, this person's not going to have viewing 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:50.439 and I mean really decomposed maggots up to my arms 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.480 and everything. But that's they said, Okay, well you can 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.840 practice your first cuts on this person because you know 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.200 they won't be having a viewing. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.000 So it's interesting that you say that. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:06.920 Right, So, so you have this is cool because it's 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.840 you have a lab where you're studying how humans decompose 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:17.280 and you're actually using real humans. So where so all 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.640 I picture is because I've never been to a body farm, 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.560 I just picture huge acres of field with just dead 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.760 bodies laying all around in certain situations. Where do where 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.079 do these human bodies come from? 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:36.240 Right? So, the studies that are you know, operating now 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.960 are all tied to or for the most part, tied 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.720 to a willed body donation prop and so, and they're 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.640 all pretty much the same as that the one in 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:50.920 the Texas State, and that is is that people donate 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:55.199 their bodies specifically to us. We don't draw them from 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:59.280 some kind of you know, like a an atomical pool 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.400 or something like that. The other thing, too is that 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:10.560 we primarily what we prefer is people that pre register 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.199 with us before they die. So we refer to these 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:19.040 as our living donors, and and so we can we 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:23.079 get more information about them that will help us in 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.720 the research. But it also we know for a fact 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.840 that this is what they wanted and they're comfortable with that, 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.080 and so all that kind of makes a big difference 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.080 to us. You know, we really want people that well 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.600 our donated their bodies because they wanted to participate in 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:46.400 this kind of research and education. And as a result, 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.600 you can imagine we get a lot of people that 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.000 were you know, prior law enforcement. We get a lot 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.920 of people that were teachers while they are alive, and 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.480 you know, just people that are interested in in science. 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.320 But you know, we also get people that are you know, 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:10.080 want for example, a green burial and they want you know, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.240 they don't want to be cremated, they don't want to 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:17.880 be buried in a coffin and you know, preserved in 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:22.920 that steps. So there's different reasons, but that's the main 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.480 thing is that they all have know what is going on, 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.440 you know, you know what kind of research they would 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:29.600 be involved with. 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.560 And where that this is. I have a million questions. 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.320 I'll try to get them out. So do you have 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.160 to do you take every single person that wants to 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.680 donate themselves to you or is there do you have 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.400 a criteria, Like we're going to talk about a little 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.880 bit later, some research that you've done on bones of 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:55.640 obese patients versus or not patients of disease versus not 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.920 obese people. But so like, if you're doing you're trying 0:14:59.920 --> 0:15:02.520 to look for a specific thing that you're doing research on, 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.880 do you do you try to recruit more of those 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.520 those bodies or do you just take all of them 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.000 and then kind of separate them into what you're doing. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:19.200 We we, we don't. We don't recruit in that sense. 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.440 It'd be kind of hard to do, I think to 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:27.320 some to some except but we we we don't. Also, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.880 we don't accept everybody that applies, but we you know, 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.000 but if it's a person that we have registered and 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.840 they're a living donor, then we will accept them no 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.280 matter what. For next to kin donations, which is where 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.360 the family can donate the body. Uh, in those situations, yes, 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.520 it's pretty much. Part of the decision about whether or 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.360 not we would accept the individual is whether or not 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.120 they will fit into some kind of research protocol that 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:55.400 is going on at the time. 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.080 Okay, yeah, that's interesting. 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.280 And so you did say some people want to do 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.800 like a green burial, So are there situations where you 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.840 would just leave their body out there until it's completely 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:12.520 decomposed and just not like this is this is my question. 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.720 Let's say you're just trying to you're trying to research 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.600 a specific person just to see like moderate decomposition. When 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.160 you're done with that person, do you then give the 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.120 remains back to the family or do you just continue 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.120 to use it for other things and just let them 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.600 all naturally decomposed on the farm. 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.760 So we we we do not return any of the remains, 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.480 but we don't necessarily let them all just decomposed out there. 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.400 So what we will do is after the research is done, 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:47.400 they will get processed down to a skelton. And so 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.760 that which is also part of the training is that 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.840 you know, it allows us to teach students their osteology 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.040 and they get to see a lot of variation. But 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:01.560 then we we curate the skelptor remains, and those skeletons 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.560 then are used for research. And as you were talking 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.080 about with the obesity project I have going on right now, 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:15.040 that's what utilize those skeltaling me, there are a couple 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.680 of situations where we've had bodies that have been out 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.600 there for you know, coming on ten years or so, 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:25.760 and most of those there are long term studies that 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:30.880 are looking at like how does how does DNA degrade, Uh, 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.240 you know, where what bones are best to recover from, 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.680 what portions of the bone or best to recover from, 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:42.399 and whether or not, you know, just destruction of the 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.320 bone due to the sun can give us an estimation 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:49.600 of postporum interval in longer you know, in older cases. 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.640 So those are the kind of reasons that they would 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.320 be left out there for a long time, but at 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:55.560 some point they all come back in. 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.479 So you're in Texas right now. I've never I do 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.679 want to go to Texas, but I've never been there. 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.000 But it's pretty The environment from what I understand, is 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.960 like pretty dry and hot correct very hot. 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.520 Yeah, in the summer we have you know, sixty to 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:18.040 ninety days of over one hundred degree weather. So it's 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.320 it's a shoot, but it's not not dry like New 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.280 Mexico dried, you know, with humidity, low humidity. We have 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:30.560 high humidity. Where we're actually located at is right on 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.360 the edge of the coastal plains in the hill country. 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.639 So we're actually in the hill country a little bit. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.919 So you know, you get a lot of cactus and 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.000 juniper and you know, stuff of that nature. As far 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:50.199 as planets, go, but it's but it's not dry like 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.359 you might see like in New Mexico, Arizona. 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.399 Oh okay, well my question is is because. 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:57.720 But we don't get young rain. 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:00.879 Oh yeah, that's that was my question. 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:06.800 Because when you're recreating kind of recreating the decomposition process, 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.800 how do you how do you account for it? Because 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.000 I know the environment has a lot to do with 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.240 how bodies are breaking down. Because if you had a 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.840 body decomposing in Texas, it wouldn't be the same as 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.720 it decomposing in let's say, like Savannah, Georgia in the 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.959 summer where it's just hot and super swampy, or in Alaska. 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.639 There's all different variation, even the desert. So do you 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.320 have do you have certain ways that you could mimic 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:41.760 a different environment, like a cold, dry environment versus a hot, 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.240 humid one. Do you guys study that we. 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.520 Can't really mimic a different environment, but what we can? 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.320 But you know, there are facilities in other areas that 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:57.560 we can you know, do studies in collaboration with each 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.280 other and get some ideas what's going on. You know, 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.080 there there are certain things that you can take into consideration. 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.000 So one of the things that we look at instead 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:12.080 of like how long somebody's been dead in calendar days, 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.600 we look at how long somebody's been dead in accumulated 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.120 degree days, which is basically the thermal energy that would 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.399 be available for the decopposition process and also for you know, 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:29.080 the development of maggots and bacteria and things of that nature. 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:34.399 So we can control that to some extent. But you know, 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:40.440 decomposition is a drying process, and so you know what 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.520 could happen different in you know, for example, in Georgia 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.000 versus Arizona, is that the body is going to dry 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.080 out a lot faster, uh, which is going to slow 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:56.600 down decopposition. Where in Georgia you're not drying the body 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.760 out as fast, and because it's so hot, humid, and 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:05.000 so it allows for that remove all the soft tissue 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:09.160 a lot wrap and so you can control for that 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:10.000 to some extent. 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:15.040 Okay, so you were talking about how sometimes that you 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:17.439 have people that are cleaning off the bones so you 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.000 could study them for other things. So that was my 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.760 next question. I when I did intern at Theme's office, 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:28.119 I had never I'd never I've only saw regular autopsies 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:30.199 at the hospital, so I'm used to that, just like 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.960 fresh smell of a dead body, and I'll never forget. 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.280 The office was an older office in Philly. It was 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.199 their old office. And I walked in and it was 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:41.440 it was a situation where you walked in, the lobby 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.680 was on the on the ground floor, and then the 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.080 morgue was in the basement and you had to walk 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.439 down the super creepy metal, old spiral staircase and I 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.679 went down about halfway and I got punched in the 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.560 face with this smell that I've never smelled in my life, 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.800 and I was like, what is that? And it was 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.560 it was a d comp was downstairs, and I just 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.479 was mind blown because right at the bottom of that 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.600 staircase all the investigators sat there and they're like they 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.199 have their legs up, They're drinking coffee, eating donuts, and 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:17.040 I'm like, hell, is anybody eating around this? It's just 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.919 it's just the most disturbing smell. But then obviously, like 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.000 by the end of the week, I was eating Chinese 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:25.280 food with them for lunch. You know, you get used 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:29.440 to it, but there are people that that just can't 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:33.120 ever get used to that smell and everything. So when 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.800 you hire somebody to work there and help out do 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.320 you have to kind of give them a test in 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:42.359 a certain kind of way, like, hey, this is not 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.159 like a regular dirty job, it's on another level. 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.359 Yeah. So you know, what we're doing is you know, 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:52.720 working with people that you know, hire as far as 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:54.840 people that were hiring, we've we're hiring people that have 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:57.360 been in the build and know what they're getting into. 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:00.560 As far as students go, you know, that is actually 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:03.640 one of the things that is beneficial about a facility 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:07.920 like this is that a lot of times students realize 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:09.760 that this is not what they want to do, is 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:16.280 that they can't handle the Sometimes it's the smells, sometimes 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:20.800 it's the the appearance. You know. So it's different for 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:25.720 different people, but you know, it's it's a good thing 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:29.040 to learn before you know you're out in the field 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:32.680 for the first time. You know. We also do the 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:36.640 same thing for what we do a day of training 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:40.960 for some of the local police cadet and part of 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:43.320 the reason for that is is just so that they 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:45.960 they know what decomposition is going to be like. But 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.640 they also the first time they ever see a dead 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:52.800 body is not when they're you know, doing an investigation. 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:56.359 Yeah, I can't imagine I remember the first time that 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.480 I ever went on a scene to see I had 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:03.080 to go pick up a dcomp with the with theme's office, 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.240 and I thought, like, how upsetting that would be for 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.760 a family to see one of your family members in 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:12.600 that condition, because it's just so it's not only the smell, 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:14.639 but just the way that they look and everything. So 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:18.119 I think that's cool that you teach cops and stuff 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:20.080 that because they're going to come across that kind of 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:24.159 stuff all the time. My husband's a firefighter. He sees 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:27.040