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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

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Speaker 2: A few weeks ago, on Mother Knows Death, we talked

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Speaker 2: about a story where a forensic anthropologist I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you heard of this story, but a forensic anthropologist

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Speaker 2: shift was shopping at an antique store and they stumbled

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Speaker 2: across a human skull. And I thought the story was

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Speaker 2: funny because they said, oh, luckily it was a forensic pathologist,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, like, okay, I think that most people,

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Speaker 2: even if they didn't have training in forensic pathology, would

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Speaker 2: know if it was a real human skull or not

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Speaker 2: because they're just so specific looking to a human. And

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Speaker 2: also on my website, The Grocerroom, we talked about a

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Speaker 2: book called Death's Acre, which is about the field of

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Speaker 2: forensic anthropology. So I thought it would be awesome today

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Speaker 2: on the podcast to interview a real forensic anthropologist and

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Speaker 2: his name is doctor Daniel Westcott.

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Speaker 3: Welcome.

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Speaker 2: It's an honor to have you here today. He is

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Speaker 2: a professor of anthropology at Texas State University, which has

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Speaker 2: the largest body farm in the country. And thanks so

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Speaker 2: much for being here today.

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Speaker 3: Is an honor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 2: I anthropology when I was in college in my undergrad

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Speaker 2: and I thought it was the coolest class that I

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Speaker 2: ever took. I really didn't know about it, and it

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Speaker 2: was mostly cultural anthropology, but he touched a little bit

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Speaker 2: on a physical anthropology, which I think is a branch

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Speaker 2: of what you're doing. So can you describe to us,

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Speaker 2: like how what did you originally go to college for

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Speaker 2: and how did you even become interested or know about

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Speaker 2: this field?

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Speaker 4: Okay, oh, yeah, So biologically apology is one of the

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Speaker 4: subdisciplines of anthology. See so culture anthropology obviously looks at

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Speaker 4: the cultures of people, and archaeology looks at past cultures,

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Speaker 4: and biological anthology looks at the biology of people. And

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Speaker 4: we're interested in biological variation and how humans interact with

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Speaker 4: their environment and with their culture on a biological point

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Speaker 4: of view. So I've actually always been interested in both.

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Speaker 4: And so, uh, when I when I when I started college,

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Speaker 4: I the same thing. I took a four filled course, uh,

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Speaker 4: in pro course in anthropology, and I it was very

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Speaker 4: interested in doing. It wasn't my major or anything like that,

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Speaker 4: but I was very interested in that fourfilled approach. And

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Speaker 4: then so then I took another UH course. But when

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Speaker 4: I was taking those courses, there was a the if

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Speaker 4: Bulget department had a library attastitute. It's a little small

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Speaker 4: student library, and so I would go in there and

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Speaker 4: study before class. And one day one of the professors

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Speaker 4: came in and said, you know, somebody brought in some

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Speaker 4: human remains and is there anybody's interested in you know,

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Speaker 4: helped me with them, and of course you're like the

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Speaker 4: Champson that was pretty much. Yes, that was pretty much.

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Speaker 4: Yet you know, a week later I changed my major

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Speaker 4: and been doing it ever since.

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Speaker 2: I love stories like that because I think that everyone

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Speaker 2: has this pivotal moment. Well not everyone, I guess, but

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Speaker 2: people that are doing really cool jobs and they love

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Speaker 2: their job, they have this pivotal moment that they're like, wait,

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Speaker 2: I'm not in the right thing, and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: change over to this right away because this is something

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Speaker 2: that feels more right for me. When I was in

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Speaker 2: PA school, i interned at the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office,

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Speaker 2: and that was really the first time I ever had

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Speaker 2: kind of a simil situation that happened with you. They

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Speaker 2: would from time to time have the police call and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: there's bones that are in the woods and we need

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Speaker 2: someone to look at them. And they didn't have a

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Speaker 2: forensic anthropologist that was there all the time, so when

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Speaker 2: they had cases like that, they would have to call

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Speaker 2: someone in to look at them. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: I'll never forget that there was it was a trash

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Speaker 2: bag and the emmy dumped out all the bones onto

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Speaker 2: the autopsy table and he said, oh, that's barbecue. It's

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Speaker 2: probably pork or something, and didn't even call one of

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Speaker 2: you guys to look at it. And I remember thinking

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Speaker 2: how cool that was that he could just look at

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Speaker 2: bones that fast and know that they weren't human. And

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Speaker 2: he explained to us like the weight bearing joints and

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Speaker 2: all this different things. But I thought that was really cool.

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Speaker 2: So obviously that's one of the jobs that a forensic

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Speaker 2: anthropologist can have, is working on real cases and being

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Speaker 2: a consult But what are what are some other things

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Speaker 2: you can do once you go to school and become

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Speaker 2: a forensic anthropologist.

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Speaker 4: Well, so, you know, if if you look at kind

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Speaker 4: of modern friends of anthropology, there's a couple of things

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Speaker 4: that there's a couple of different approaches, I guess, or

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Speaker 4: different tracks that you could go into. So there's obviously

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Speaker 4: the academic side, which is where I'm at, where I,

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Speaker 4: you know, a college professor and I teach friendsic anthropology,

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Speaker 4: I do research associated with friendsic anthropology, you know my

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Speaker 4: and have students and in things of that nature. And

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Speaker 4: then there's the side where you have people that are

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Speaker 4: on the track where they mainly are focusing on working

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Speaker 4: at a medical exeveritor's office. And I know that that

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Speaker 4: wasn't was not common in the past, but it is

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Speaker 4: becoming more and more common where you have friends againsthropologists

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Speaker 4: that are doing casework in the medical exemveritor's office. Not

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Speaker 4: only are they doing when there's actually skult or remains,

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Speaker 4: but they're also assisting with like looking at blood force

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Speaker 4: trauma and actually analyzing the bones even if there's a

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Speaker 4: plush person the And then the third track I guess

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Speaker 4: would be working for the government and as a friends

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Speaker 4: against all. Mainly that's associated with locating and identifying US

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Speaker 4: war dead and so, uh, there are a lot of

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Speaker 4: people that well that's their their career focuses on, uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, trying to identify people that died in the

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Speaker 4: in different wars, and they got pretty much any war

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Speaker 4: as long as the US was involved.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: So you're a professor at Texas State University, and this

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Speaker 2: is a question I have. I know that you have

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Speaker 2: a doctorate, but can people Are there different levels that

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Speaker 2: people we can go to school to work in the

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Speaker 2: field of forensic anthropology or do you have to have

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Speaker 2: a doctor to do that particular career.

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Speaker 4: No, you don't have to have a doctor. I would

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Speaker 4: say that, you know, a large majority of forensic anthabologist

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Speaker 4: have a doctor, but not all of by any means.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the investigators that work in medical examiner's offices,

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Speaker 4: for example, will only have a master's Usually, if you

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Speaker 4: don't have at least a you know, some kind of

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Speaker 4: a graduate degree, you tend to do more like crime

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Speaker 4: scene investigation and you might get involved with you know,

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Speaker 4: the obviously shelter remains in that sense. But same thing

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Speaker 4: with the US Army is that, you know, we have

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Speaker 4: a lot of our students that have gotten a master's

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Speaker 4: degree and then gone on to work for the government

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Speaker 4: with assisting in the identification of war dead. So it's

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Speaker 4: possibleVarious levels and then the same thing there, you know,

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Speaker 4: if you're wanting to go into just teaching. Yep, you

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Speaker 4: can get the job, said like community colleges and things,

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Speaker 4: teaching friends against pology with a master's.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's good to know.

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Speaker 2: I like to introduce everyone to all these different jobs

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Speaker 2: they can get because I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: just think there's only one thing you can do and

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Speaker 2: you have to do a lot of education for it.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of times, like sometimes I hear from

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Speaker 2: young mothers that want to go back to school, but

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Speaker 2: they really can't dedicate like eight years of their life

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Speaker 2: to go into school, but they do have interest. So

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Speaker 2: it's nice to know that there's lower levels that people

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Speaker 2: can do it. I know that you did get your

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Speaker 2: doctor from the University of Tennessee and that the book

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Speaker 2: that we read this month called Death's Acre was about

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Speaker 2: doctor Bill Bess, who created the first body farm. And

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Speaker 2: so for everyone listening that doesn't know what a body

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Speaker 2: farm is, can you tell us a little bit about that?

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Speaker 4: Sure? So if they're really kind of decomposition laboratories or

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Speaker 4: what really was called a taphonomic laboratory book, an outdoor

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Speaker 4: laboratory uh tefonomy is the study of anything that happened

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Speaker 4: to a once living organism from the moment it dies

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Speaker 4: to the moment it's discovered. Originally, it kind of came

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Speaker 4: out of paleontology, and the idea was, or the original

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Speaker 4: definition actually was from from the biosphere to the lithosphere,

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Speaker 4: so basically from a living organism to a bostle. And

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Speaker 4: the idea was to understand, you know, why you don't

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Speaker 4: find a complete body, right, what are the processes that

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Speaker 4: resulted in that. You know, if you find if you're

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Speaker 4: looking at a dinosaur, for example, and you have a

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Speaker 4: handful of bones and some teeth and stuff, what happened

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Speaker 4: to the rest of it and what were the processes

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Speaker 4: that occurred there? And so forensic anthopology we're doing the

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Speaker 4: same thing. We're just doing the very beginnings of that, right,

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Speaker 4: a very shortened version of it. Uh. And so the

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Speaker 4: idea is is to conduct research that looks at what

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Speaker 4: affects the rates of decomposition, uh, if there's anything that

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Speaker 4: affects the processes of decomposition. And also you know, to

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Speaker 4: be able to understand the uh, the scene better to

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Speaker 4: understand you know, movement of the body, you know, what

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Speaker 4: causes it to become disarticulated because of it to become spread.

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Speaker 4: What kind of damage do you have from the from

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Speaker 4: the skeleton that might be caused by a tafonomic process

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Speaker 4: rather than something that actually had to do with individual's deaths.

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Speaker 4: Uh So those are the things that go on in

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Speaker 4: uh decomposition facilities. The other thing too, is that they

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Speaker 4: are also a training ground, and so we utilize these

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Speaker 4: facilities to train law enforcement and medical legal investigators to

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Speaker 4: where they can actually work with real remains and they

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Speaker 4: can we can send up scenarios, you know, or we

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Speaker 4: can you know, teach them how to excavate or teach

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Speaker 4: them how to locate remains. And it gives them the

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Speaker 4: opportunity to learn that. But also if they're going to

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Speaker 4: make a mistake, to make a mistake, you know, during

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Speaker 4: the training and not in a real life.

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Speaker 2: Situation, that's interesting because I and then of course the

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Speaker 2: other thing. Oh sorry, I was going to say, I

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Speaker 2: did my first autopsy on a decomposed person, because they

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Speaker 2: were like, listen, this person's not going to have viewing

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Speaker 2: and I mean really decomposed maggots up to my arms

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Speaker 2: and everything. But that's they said, Okay, well you can

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Speaker 2: practice your first cuts on this person because you know

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Speaker 2: they won't be having a viewing.

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Speaker 3: So it's interesting that you say that.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, so you have this is cool because it's

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Speaker 2: you have a lab where you're studying how humans decompose

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Speaker 2: and you're actually using real humans. So where so all

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Speaker 2: I picture is because I've never been to a body farm,

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Speaker 2: I just picture huge acres of field with just dead

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Speaker 2: bodies laying all around in certain situations. Where do where

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Speaker 2: do these human bodies come from?

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Speaker 4: Right? So, the studies that are you know, operating now

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Speaker 4: are all tied to or for the most part, tied

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Speaker 4: to a willed body donation prop and so, and they're

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Speaker 4: all pretty much the same as that the one in

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Speaker 4: the Texas State, and that is is that people donate

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Speaker 4: their bodies specifically to us. We don't draw them from

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Speaker 4: some kind of you know, like a an atomical pool

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Speaker 4: or something like that. The other thing, too is that

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Speaker 4: we primarily what we prefer is people that pre register

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Speaker 4: with us before they die. So we refer to these

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Speaker 4: as our living donors, and and so we can we

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Speaker 4: get more information about them that will help us in

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Speaker 4: the research. But it also we know for a fact

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Speaker 4: that this is what they wanted and they're comfortable with that,

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Speaker 4: and so all that kind of makes a big difference

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Speaker 4: to us. You know, we really want people that well

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Speaker 4: our donated their bodies because they wanted to participate in

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Speaker 4: this kind of research and education. And as a result,

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Speaker 4: you can imagine we get a lot of people that

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Speaker 4: were you know, prior law enforcement. We get a lot

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Speaker 4: of people that were teachers while they are alive, and

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Speaker 4: you know, just people that are interested in in science.

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Speaker 4: But you know, we also get people that are you know,

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Speaker 4: want for example, a green burial and they want you know,

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Speaker 4: they don't want to be cremated, they don't want to

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Speaker 4: be buried in a coffin and you know, preserved in

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Speaker 4: that steps. So there's different reasons, but that's the main

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Speaker 4: thing is that they all have know what is going on,

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Speaker 4: you know, you know what kind of research they would

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Speaker 4: be involved with.

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Speaker 3: And where that this is. I have a million questions.

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Speaker 2: I'll try to get them out. So do you have

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Speaker 2: to do you take every single person that wants to

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Speaker 2: donate themselves to you or is there do you have

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Speaker 2: a criteria, Like we're going to talk about a little

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Speaker 2: bit later, some research that you've done on bones of

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Speaker 2: obese patients versus or not patients of disease versus not

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Speaker 2: obese people. But so like, if you're doing you're trying

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Speaker 2: to look for a specific thing that you're doing research on,

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Speaker 2: do you do you try to recruit more of those

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Speaker 2: those bodies or do you just take all of them

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Speaker 2: and then kind of separate them into what you're doing.

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Speaker 4: We we, we don't. We don't recruit in that sense.

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Speaker 4: It'd be kind of hard to do, I think to

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Speaker 4: some to some except but we we we don't. Also,

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Speaker 4: we don't accept everybody that applies, but we you know,

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Speaker 4: but if it's a person that we have registered and

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Speaker 4: they're a living donor, then we will accept them no

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Speaker 4: matter what. For next to kin donations, which is where

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Speaker 4: the family can donate the body. Uh, in those situations, yes,

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Speaker 4: it's pretty much. Part of the decision about whether or

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Speaker 4: not we would accept the individual is whether or not

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Speaker 4: they will fit into some kind of research protocol that

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Speaker 4: is going on at the time.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: And so you did say some people want to do

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Speaker 2: like a green burial, So are there situations where you

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Speaker 2: would just leave their body out there until it's completely

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Speaker 2: decomposed and just not like this is this is my question.

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Speaker 2: Let's say you're just trying to you're trying to research

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Speaker 2: a specific person just to see like moderate decomposition. When

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Speaker 2: you're done with that person, do you then give the

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Speaker 2: remains back to the family or do you just continue

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Speaker 2: to use it for other things and just let them

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Speaker 2: all naturally decomposed on the farm.

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Speaker 4: So we we we do not return any of the remains,

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Speaker 4: but we don't necessarily let them all just decomposed out there.

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Speaker 4: So what we will do is after the research is done,

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Speaker 4: they will get processed down to a skelton. And so

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Speaker 4: that which is also part of the training is that

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Speaker 4: you know, it allows us to teach students their osteology

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Speaker 4: and they get to see a lot of variation. But

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Speaker 4: then we we curate the skelptor remains, and those skeletons

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Speaker 4: then are used for research. And as you were talking

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Speaker 4: about with the obesity project I have going on right now,

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Speaker 4: that's what utilize those skeltaling me, there are a couple

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Speaker 4: of situations where we've had bodies that have been out

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Speaker 4: there for you know, coming on ten years or so,

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Speaker 4: and most of those there are long term studies that

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Speaker 4: are looking at like how does how does DNA degrade, Uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, where what bones are best to recover from,

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Speaker 4: what portions of the bone or best to recover from,

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Speaker 4: and whether or not, you know, just destruction of the

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Speaker 4: bone due to the sun can give us an estimation

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Speaker 4: of postporum interval in longer you know, in older cases.

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Speaker 4: So those are the kind of reasons that they would

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Speaker 4: be left out there for a long time, but at

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Speaker 4: some point they all come back in.

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Speaker 2: So you're in Texas right now. I've never I do

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Speaker 2: want to go to Texas, but I've never been there.

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Speaker 2: But it's pretty The environment from what I understand, is

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Speaker 2: like pretty dry and hot correct very hot.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in the summer we have you know, sixty to

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Speaker 4: ninety days of over one hundred degree weather. So it's

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Speaker 4: it's a shoot, but it's not not dry like New

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Speaker 4: Mexico dried, you know, with humidity, low humidity. We have

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Speaker 4: high humidity. Where we're actually located at is right on

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Speaker 4: the edge of the coastal plains in the hill country.

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Speaker 4: So we're actually in the hill country a little bit.

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Speaker 4: So you know, you get a lot of cactus and

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Speaker 4: juniper and you know, stuff of that nature. As far

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Speaker 4: as planets, go, but it's but it's not dry like

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Speaker 4: you might see like in New Mexico, Arizona.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, well my question is is because.

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Speaker 4: But we don't get young rain.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's that was my question.

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Speaker 2: Because when you're recreating kind of recreating the decomposition process,

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Speaker 2: how do you how do you account for it? Because

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Speaker 2: I know the environment has a lot to do with

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Speaker 2: how bodies are breaking down. Because if you had a

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Speaker 2: body decomposing in Texas, it wouldn't be the same as

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Speaker 2: it decomposing in let's say, like Savannah, Georgia in the

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Speaker 2: summer where it's just hot and super swampy, or in Alaska.

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Speaker 2: There's all different variation, even the desert. So do you

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Speaker 2: have do you have certain ways that you could mimic

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Speaker 2: a different environment, like a cold, dry environment versus a hot,

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Speaker 2: humid one. Do you guys study that we.

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Speaker 4: Can't really mimic a different environment, but what we can?

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Speaker 4: But you know, there are facilities in other areas that

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Speaker 4: we can you know, do studies in collaboration with each

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Speaker 4: other and get some ideas what's going on. You know,

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Speaker 4: there there are certain things that you can take into consideration.

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Speaker 4: So one of the things that we look at instead

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Speaker 4: of like how long somebody's been dead in calendar days,

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Speaker 4: we look at how long somebody's been dead in accumulated

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Speaker 4: degree days, which is basically the thermal energy that would

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Speaker 4: be available for the decopposition process and also for you know,

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Speaker 4: the development of maggots and bacteria and things of that nature.

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Speaker 4: So we can control that to some extent. But you know,

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Speaker 4: decomposition is a drying process, and so you know what

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Speaker 4: could happen different in you know, for example, in Georgia

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Speaker 4: versus Arizona, is that the body is going to dry

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Speaker 4: out a lot faster, uh, which is going to slow

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Speaker 4: down decopposition. Where in Georgia you're not drying the body

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Speaker 4: out as fast, and because it's so hot, humid, and

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Speaker 4: so it allows for that remove all the soft tissue

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Speaker 4: a lot wrap and so you can control for that

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Speaker 4: to some extent.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you were talking about how sometimes that you

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Speaker 2: have people that are cleaning off the bones so you

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Speaker 2: could study them for other things. So that was my

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Speaker 2: next question. I when I did intern at Theme's office,

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Speaker 2: I had never I'd never I've only saw regular autopsies

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Speaker 2: at the hospital, so I'm used to that, just like

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Speaker 2: fresh smell of a dead body, and I'll never forget.

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Speaker 2: The office was an older office in Philly. It was

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Speaker 2: their old office. And I walked in and it was

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Speaker 2: it was a situation where you walked in, the lobby

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Speaker 2: was on the on the ground floor, and then the

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Speaker 2: morgue was in the basement and you had to walk

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Speaker 2: down the super creepy metal, old spiral staircase and I

355
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Speaker 2: went down about halfway and I got punched in the

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Speaker 2: face with this smell that I've never smelled in my life,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, what is that? And it was

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Speaker 2: it was a d comp was downstairs, and I just

359
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,479
Speaker 2: was mind blown because right at the bottom of that

360
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Speaker 2: staircase all the investigators sat there and they're like they

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Speaker 2: have their legs up, They're drinking coffee, eating donuts, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, hell, is anybody eating around this? It's just

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Speaker 2: it's just the most disturbing smell. But then obviously, like

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Speaker 2: by the end of the week, I was eating Chinese

365
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: food with them for lunch. You know, you get used

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Speaker 2: to it, but there are people that that just can't

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Speaker 2: ever get used to that smell and everything. So when

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Speaker 2: you hire somebody to work there and help out do

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Speaker 2: you have to kind of give them a test in

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Speaker 2: a certain kind of way, like, hey, this is not

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Speaker 2: like a regular dirty job, it's on another level.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So you know, what we're doing is you know,

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Speaker 4: working with people that you know, hire as far as

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Speaker 4: people that were hiring, we've we're hiring people that have

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Speaker 4: been in the build and know what they're getting into.

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Speaker 4: As far as students go, you know, that is actually

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Speaker 4: one of the things that is beneficial about a facility

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Speaker 4: like this is that a lot of times students realize

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Speaker 4: that this is not what they want to do, is

380
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Speaker 4: that they can't handle the Sometimes it's the smells, sometimes

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00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 4: it's the the appearance. You know. So it's different for

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Speaker 4: different people, but you know, it's it's a good thing

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Speaker 4: to learn before you know you're out in the field

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Speaker 4: for the first time. You know. We also do the

385
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Speaker 4: same thing for what we do a day of training

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Speaker 4: for some of the local police cadet and part of

387
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Speaker 4: the reason for that is is just so that they

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Speaker 4: they know what decomposition is going to be like. But

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Speaker 4: they also the first time they ever see a dead

390
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Speaker 4: body is not when they're you know, doing an investigation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine I remember the first time that

392
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Speaker 2: I ever went on a scene to see I had

393
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Speaker 2: to go pick up a dcomp with the with theme's office,

394
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Speaker 2: and I thought, like, how upsetting that would be for

395
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Speaker 2: a family to see one of your family members in

396
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: that condition, because it's just so it's not only the smell,

397
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Speaker 2: but just the way that they look and everything. So

398
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Speaker 2: I think that's cool that you teach cops and stuff

399
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Speaker 2: that because they're going to come across that kind of

400
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 2: stuff all the time. My husband's a firefighter. He sees

401
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: that stuff all the time, you know, and it can

402
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: be really disturbing, especially if you're kind of at work

403
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: when it happens and you're not really prepared for it.

404
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: So that's cool.

405
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Speaker 2: And I was going to ask you that like, cause

406
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 2: when I was doing autopsies at an academic center one time,

407
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 2: I had a nurse that was observing and I before

408
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: we started the autopsy, I went up in surgical pathology

409
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: and was just showing the students some stuff and I

410
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 2: pulled a placenta out of a bucket that had been

411
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: fixed in formaldehyde already, so it had really no like

412
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: real blood on it, just like a brownish color. And

413
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: I pull this thing out and put it on the

414
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: cutting board, and she turned white as a ghost and

415
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: had to like sit down on the floor and do

416
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: deep breathing. And I was like, you might not want

417
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: to be a nurse because this is nothing compared to

418
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Speaker 2: what you're going to see in real life, you know.

419
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Speaker 2: So I was gonna ask you, like, have you had

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Speaker 2: students drop out because they do class work and they're

421
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: totally fine and then they say it in real life

422
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Speaker 2: and just like can't handle it.

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Speaker 4: It happens occasionally, not very often, but occasionally it does happen.

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435
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: So let's get into your research and everything you One

436
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 2: of the things I so, I I know a little

437
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 2: bit about the research you're doing on obese bones versus

438
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: not because not because I have done any research on it,

439
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: but just doing autopsies on I would say, you know,

440
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: ninety percent of patients or either overweight or obese that

441
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: I would do autopsies on. And one case I had

442
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: this I did we would have patients that were called

443
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: super obese, like a BMI over fifty or something like that.

444
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: And this guy had this large penis that was hanging

445
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: to one side, like a big thick section of belly skin.

446
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 2: And even when I did the autopsy and laid them

447
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: on the table, it was just kind of hanging to

448
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 2: the one side. And I was shocked when I opened

449
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 2: I did the y incision and his ribcage was completely

450
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: distorted from all of that weight bearing on the one

451
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: side for years and years of his life. It was

452
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: like the one side of his ribcage looked totally normal

453
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: and the other side was huge. So it was it

454
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: was really cool. So what what are what's some work

455
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: that you've been doing with that, because it's it's really interesting.

456
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you know, we're we're really interested in trying

457
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 4: to figure out at least whether or not we can

458
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 4: tell whether somebody's obese or not. And then of course,

459
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 4: the other the other reason for doing this is that,

460
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 4: you know, we know a lot about clinically about gate

461
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 4: patterns and obese individuals and how they shift their weight

462
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: and and so it also helps us understand how bone

463
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 4: bonds to mechanical loading. But the idea, like I said,

464
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 4: is that I think currently about forty percent of people

465
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 4: in the United States are obese, and if you include overweight,

466
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 4: it jumps to about sixty percent. And so you know,

467
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 4: knowing if an individual is obese has a you know,

468
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 4: is telling us a lot about that individual. And it

469
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 4: also the the other thing that we know is that

470
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 4: carrying that extra weight has an effect on adult age indicator,

471
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 4: for example, because most of what you're looking at for

472
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 4: adult age indicator is actually wear and tear on the joints,

473
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 4: and so you're going to get some variation in that.

474
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 4: And so what we're doing is taking approach where we're

475
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 4: looking at how does obesity affect the shape of the

476
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 4: overall shape of the bone, and then how does it

477
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 4: affect the cross section of the shaft for example, there's

478
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 4: a you know, if you think about the shaft being

479
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 4: a beam, you know it's going to need to be thicker, uh,

480
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 4: you know, heavier beam to to hindle the wheat that's

481
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 4: associated with that. And then also the trabecular structure, which

482
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 4: is the uh, the fine straton bone that you have

483
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 4: in your joints that it absorbs a lot of energy

484
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 4: associated with you know, ground force reactions. And so by

485
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 4: looking at these different structures we can get a pretty

486
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 4: good idea whether the individual was obese or not. And

487
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: like I said that, right, there can be a major

488
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 4: factor of the biological profile because weight has been pretty

489
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 4: much ignored in the biological profile because in the past

490
00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 4: it's been relatively hard to determine. And one the arguments too,

491
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 4: is that, well, you know, what's affecting the skeleton is

492
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 4: the lean body mass, and that is true, but if

493
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 4: you have individuals that were obese, especially if they are

494
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: obese most of their life, then they actually have a

495
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 4: log and slow it does affect the structure.

496
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: That's really interesting what you're saying about about the bones.

497
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: I'd never even really thought about that actually, So when

498
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: you are trying to age bones. You look at like

499
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: the articular surface to see if there's if there's any

500
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: kind of degenerative joint, which you would normally see in

501
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: an older person, but you're saying that in a younger

502
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: person that's obese, you might you might see something like that.

503
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, you And in reality, right now, what we

504
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: are finding is that until we get some better data

505
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: is that we really can't even tell.

506
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 4: We really just have to have a broader age range

507
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 4: if we're looking at somebody that's obese, because what we

508
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 4: what we found was that, you know, when we first

509
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 4: started doing this research, we were thought, well, when we

510
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 4: when we look at obese individuals, we're going to be

511
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: overestimating their age all the time because of wear and tear.

512
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 4: But it turns out that that's not always true, you know,

513
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 4: especially in people that are you know, like you said

514
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 4: to have a BMI O woe or fifty or something

515
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 4: like that that are you know, very very obese. A

516
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 4: lot of times they're actually not moving around that much

517
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 4: and so they're not actually putting that much uh you know,

518
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 4: stress on those joints, and so we can have you

519
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 4: can get where you're actually underestimating their age as well,

520
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 4: so that you get a lot more variation now, you know,

521
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 4: to have some kind of idea of how active they are.

522
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 4: If you have a way that's obese and active, they

523
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 4: are probably going to have greater wear and tear on

524
00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 4: those joints.

525
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's there's just so many things to think of.

526
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: It's just it's just it's just so cool.

527
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: That's why your job is just really cool because there's

528
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: there's just all these little nuances that that just make

529
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: it really interesting. So now so you're at a Texas

530
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: State University and obviously you're you're a professor there and

531
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: you're doing some active research or you're working on anything

532
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: like cool that you could talk about with us.

533
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: Uh, Well, we're you know, constantly involved in different research.

534
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 4: So you know, out of the facility. Part of the

535
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 4: research that I do is actually using you know, how

536
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 4: do we use remote sensing to locate clandestine remains? And

537
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 4: so you know, in our case, we we primarily take

538
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 4: you know, weag just uh using a drone just because

539
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 4: it's easy to move around and you can get you

540
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 4: know up and down, you know and move around on

541
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 4: different things. But trying to figure out what kind of

542
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 4: imagery you need depending on the plain of year that

543
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 4: you're looking, the time of day, you're looking in the

544
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 4: those state of decop of your body, whether it's buried

545
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: or on the surface. And so we can use you know,

546
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 4: just normal red, blue, green, video or or imagery, you know,

547
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 4: but you could also use different spectrums where you're looking

548
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 4: at for example, near infrared or infrared. So infrared obviously

549
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 4: will give you a heat signature, and there's and nearer

550
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 4: for red is really near a bread is really good

551
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: for example of looking at vegetation. So one of the

552
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 4: things when you're looking, especially for buried remains, you're not

553
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 4: actually looked for the remains, you're looking for some kind

554
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 4: of environmental disturbance. And so UH, the vegetar the we

555
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: can use what's called the vegetative index, and that is

556
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,959
Speaker 4: uh kind of gives you an idea of the help

557
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 4: of the thing because it reflects the floor filled differently.

558
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 4: And so we can usually utilize differences in the vegetative

559
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: index UH to you know, find areas of interest. We

560
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 4: can also use if you have a body that's in

561
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 4: a decomposition process, uh, buried, you can use near our infrared,

562
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 4: but there you have to do it during the you know,

563
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 4: the like the early morning before the sun comes up,

564
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 4: we can on the surface for example, it actually turns

565
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: out that you can use things like, uh, the algorithms

566
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 4: that are used in automated vehicles because they have to

567
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 4: be able to recognize people. Well, those same algorithms will

568
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 4: recognize a dead body on the surface if it's you know,

569
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 4: looks like a body still. So the part of what

570
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 4: we're doing, we are working at a big, large collaboration

571
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 4: between Colorado State University and then a bunch of the

572
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 4: other facilities looking at the microbiome associated with decomposition and

573
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 4: how that microbiome changes over time, and whether or not

574
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 4: that can be used to estimate the postpart of interval

575
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 4: or give us any more about the individual. You know.

576
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 4: I think one of the key things that we'll find

577
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 4: as time goes on is that, you know a lot

578
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 4: of how the rate at which you decomposed is associated

579
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 4: with the microbiome that you already have in your body.

580
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 4: For example, let's see, well, so we're doing fire death

581
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 4: investigation training and research there. So what we're looking at

582
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 4: is can you tell, for example, for it is a

583
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 4: body in a state of decomposition when it was burned

584
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 4: versus burned relatively fresh up and also then just looking

585
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 4: at the pattern of burning on the bone and along

586
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 4: the same lines looking at obesity and that does does

587
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 4: fat actually act as a buffer? You know, I mean

588
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 4: it's later I'm sorry, Uh, up to the fire or

589
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 4: does it act as a fuel source?

590
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: Uh?

591
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 4: Does it depend on the types of buyers and it's

592
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 4: been on, how long it's burned, things of that nature.

593
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 4: So we have a lot of things like that going

594
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 4: on as far as in the lab goes. We have

595
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 4: the large obesity research going on. We have actually a

596
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 4: project that I have a student that just finished our

597
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 4: dissertation on looking at immobility and how that affects the

598
00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 4: skeleton and the remodeling rates that you would see. So

599
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 4: all kinds of research going on pretty much at all times.

600
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just it all sounds like so exciting.

601
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: Honestly, when I hear you talk about this stuff, it's

602
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 2: it's just cool, especially because when you were first talking

603
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: about the the using the camera and infrared and everything,

604
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: I was my first.

605
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: Thought was like, well, how could you tell the.

606
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 2: Difference between a dead deer versus a human? And it's

607
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: cool that you're that you could use algorithms and and

608
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 2: like probably some kind of AI technology at some point

609
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 2: to to be able to help because I'm like it,

610
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: I'm like one of these most anti AI people because

611
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: I think it's just going to be.

612
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 3: Really bad, like more bad than good.

613
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: But but then you hear things like this that you say, like, Okay,

614
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: well if this could help police and investigations, that that

615
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 2: would obviously.

616
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: Be better for for humankind. But I don't know. I

617
00:37:59,160 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 3: still don't know.

618
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: I'm still on the fence about thinking if we need

619
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 2: that stuff or not. But yeah, the other stuff that

620
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: you're talking about is really cool too.

621
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, the case of you know, finding the Claniss remains

622
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 4: a lot of that has to do with just narrowing

623
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,959
Speaker 4: the search area, even if you can't for sure tell

624
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 4: whether it's a human or not, if you can narrow

625
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 4: down the possibilities of where someone could be because you know,

626
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: we do a lot of searches where for example, you know,

627
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 4: we know that person was last seen at us at

628
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 4: a ranch in Texas well that ranch is five thousand makers.

629
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 4: That's a lot of searching that do. And of course

630
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 4: you know the research with the Sculpton that is, you know,

631
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 4: understanding sculptal variation and stuff. That's one's always excited me

632
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 4: as far as you know kinds up and then you

633
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 4: know or the research has application beyond and even forensics,

634
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 4: so we can use it in to understand archeological remains,

635
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 4: but we can even understand it to understand remains, uh,

636
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 4: you know, flies remains. So we've done research looking at

637
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 4: body masks, for example, and then using that emission to

638
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 4: look at body mass at home Erectus and other species.

639
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: One of the cool things about this is that you're

640
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: the evolution of humans in general. I always like love

641
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: this from a scientific perspective of that you're studying all

642
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: this obesity stuff that's kind of new in our evolution

643
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 2: as far as as what you would see changes in

644
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 2: bones and different things like us using like devices and

645
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: just sitting at computers all day versus how life used

646
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: to be. Right, I mean, now you don't even need

647
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: to go to the store, leave your house to go

648
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 2: Christmas shopping. It's insane. So I think the skeleton is

649
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 2: going to be gradually changing. It's kind of cool, like

650
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 2: just in your lifetime that you can be able to

651
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: work on this stuff and study it.

652
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: It's really neat.

653
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have a student that is actually looking at

654
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 4: how all occupations affect with skeleton. And so you think

655
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 4: about just even the last one hundred years, you know,

656
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 4: you've had If you had somebody who was a a

657
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 4: dock worker, for example, oh you know, one hundred years ago,

658
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 4: that would have meant that they would have been, uh

659
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 4: utilizing their muscles a lot. They would have you know,

660
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 4: had which would have given them really strong bones. Uh,

661
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 4: and you'd be able to tell that from their skeleton.

662
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 4: But a dock worker today is basically driving a fortanly. Yeah,

663
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 4: you know, so they're there. They're there. It's the same occupation,

664
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 4: and yet because of technology, uh they it, the way

665
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 4: it affects their skeleton is completely different.

666
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just it's so cool. I love it. Are

667
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 3: you working on any other projects?

668
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: Like not not even necessarily anthropology related, but like what

669
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: are you This is just personal question, like what else

670
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: are you into besides looking at dead people decomposing?

671
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 4: You mean as far as polity, just your life?

672
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: Like I just I'm curious because every everyone always thinks,

673
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: like people that don't know me, they'll just think that,

674
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: like my whole life is is like skulls and dead

675
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: people and stuff, and I like I have, Like I'm

676
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: a normal person. I like other things. Besides I love

677
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: my job, but I also like other things.

678
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, so I'm a woodworker, so I do a

679
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 4: lot of word working. I have a shop here at home.

680
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 3: I love that.

681
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 4: I enjoy doing that kind of.

682
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 3: What kind of things have you made?

683
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 4: Oh, I've made all lots of different kitchen cabinets, and

684
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 4: but I also make furniture occasionally. Before I went in

685
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: and have polity, and I actually was a cabinet maker

686
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 4: and so now I just do it, you know, for enjoyment.

687
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 4: But before that, I did uh, you know, custom cabinets

688
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 4: and worked on things like uh, you know, bars for uh,

689
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 4: you know, restaurants, cash register stands for you know, different

690
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 4: retail outlets, things like that. Of that nature.

691
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 3: That's awesome. I love that.

692
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm really into It's funny too because I

693
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: do a lot of like home stuff too. I'm more

694
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: into painting and things like that and just doing little

695
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: tiny projects around the house.

696
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: But I I love that so much. It's cool. I

697
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 3: think it.

698
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: I think sometimes a job like ours is like really heavy,

699
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 2: and it's nice to just have something completely separate that

700
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: that you can wind down with and not have to

701
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: think about all of all of the sometimes horrible things

702
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 2: that are going on in the world. It's just like

703
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: a nice thing for your mind. Sure, well, thank you

704
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: so much for being here with us today. It was

705
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: awesome and really informative. And I hope one day I

706
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: could come visit you there and go check out the

707
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: body farm because I've never seen and obviously I'm so

708
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: interested in it.

709
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'd love to have you. It's it's definitely an

710
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 4: interesting and you know, it's it is. Ah, it's turned

711
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 4: out to be, you know, a very rewarding career. I

712
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 4: enjoy going to work, you know, and and because of

713
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 4: the fact that I you know, the with the outdoor

714
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 4: facility and everything, I also get a lot of different

715
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 4: variety of the you know kind of research that I do.

716
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 4: I'm not you know, stop doing one single thing, you know,

717
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 4: And I also get to work with lots of different people,

718
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 4: you know, so we do you know, all kinds of things. Actually,

719
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 4: for example, we have a mass grave project going on

720
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 4: where we actually have people from five different countries working

721
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 4: on the project and they those include you know, apologists, biologists, microbiologists,

722
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 4: dog handlers, drone operators, you know, geophysicists, all kinds of

723
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 4: different people, so I get to see this different, different

724
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 4: perspective that I that I would otherwise, you know, in

725
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 4: most academic settings.

726
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's cool too.

727
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: It's always cool to make friends with people that are

728
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: like kind of in your field but not and then

729
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 2: you could just learn all these other things that you

730
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: don't normally do at your job. But it's I mean,

731
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: you know, when you're when you like, if you and

732
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 2: I went out to dinner, we would just have a

733
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: lot to talk about because we kind of do the

734
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 2: same thing, but not really, but you know, all right,

735
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: well cool, thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thank you,

736
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 2: thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder,

737
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist assistant. I have a

738
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

739
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed

740
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

741
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

742
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

743
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

744
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being Always remember

745
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed

746
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

747
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

748
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

749
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

750
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

751
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

752
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts.

753
00:45:49,680 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 3: Thanks M