1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: I've always been interested in old cemeteries, especially from. 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: The eighteen hundreds. 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: My mother has always talked about the value of being 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: able to visit family from long ago. I really like 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: looking at the old headstones and seeing how close the 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: plots are together. I often wonder if the people there 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: were affluent because their headstones are really large, or why 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: some might not even have a marker at all. Often 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: loved ones have visited before me to leave flowers or trinkets, 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: even for people who have been gone for hundreds of years. 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher, Katie Witcher, Ran Witcher, and Desmond Kendrick all 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: wanted to see the Witcher family cemetery together to talk 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: about the family members who were buried there. 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 3: The people in the olden days, people didn't help be here. 16 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 4: And you might have a family over here and five 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 4: miles in the road being an other family. 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 3: Your wife might die, your son might die, and then 19 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 3: you might die, and it might be. 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 5: Two weaks for somebody to come through. 21 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: Well, then they didn't he know what a bird it's 22 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: putting My ancestors on a bird here in life. 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 6: Right? 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: So is ju junior, Herriet. 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 7: After I ain't law. 26 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 4: That was my dad's sister. 27 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: We walk around as Rand Witcher and Katie Witcher began 28 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: to recognize the names on some of the gravestones. 29 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 6: Your dad did that. 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: This your dad, This is your grandpa. 31 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 6: Yep, how cool is that? Have you ever seen this? 32 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 7: When I was a kid, so nineteen seventy one, I 33 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 7: do feel pretty sentimental right now. 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah, my dad looked just like him too. 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 7: Wow. And I look like my dad, so wow, I 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 7: guess I look like him. And my brother's name is 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 7: Bennett after him, he went by Benny. 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: Lots of Bennetts of the fairmonh Yeah, those tend to 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: be the wild ones too. 40 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: Wesley Witcher says that he consider cemeteries to be sacred 41 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: ground in his family. The Witcher's buried there should be 42 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: revered and in some cases forgiven for what they might 43 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: have done out of family honor. 44 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 8: You know. 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 9: They would take me to the graveyard and the past 46 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 9: meant something to them, and you would see these old 47 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 9: tombstones and scribbled in you know, back in the Civil 48 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 9: War times, you almost felt like you had a little 49 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 9: bit of a legacy. And so for a kid that 50 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 9: lost his dad. You can imagine how that kind of 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 9: filled that void. 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 5: You know. 53 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: When I visited the Witcher cemetery was a little surprised 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: because the location is really remote. 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: It's far off the main road. 56 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: I'm accustomed to cemeteries or graveyards with some type of 57 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: paved walkway. It was so isolated that Rand Witcher couldn't 58 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: even give us directions. 59 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: He had to drive us there. 60 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: The cemetery isn't very large, but it sits among huge 61 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: pine trees, and it's very well kept. The Witchers make 62 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: sure of that. There's a short wrought iron fence surrounding 63 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: parts of it, and most of the gravestones are in 64 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: good shape, considering how old they are. 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: Is Desmond here, I thought you're jacking all these rocks. 66 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 10: Yeah. 67 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: The Clement family cemetery was much more difficult for me 68 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: to find. This was the final resting place for doctor 69 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: George Clement and his family at Mountain View Plantation in Pinhook, Virginia. 70 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 3: And there's one right over here. 71 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: Also, I can't even where y'all seeing they're over here. 72 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: There's some on the ground carold like the small ones. 73 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: The current owner of the mansion kindly allowed us to 74 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: climb around the briar bushes in the back of his property. 75 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: I was excited to see all of the BlackBerry shrubs 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: until I realized how sharp their thorns are. 77 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 3: Okay, so George and Sarah, well, who is George? 78 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: So George is the father? The father? 79 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: So the father? 80 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 11: How cool? 81 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: So this is definitely the homestead right set, wife of 82 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 3: doctor George w Ature there. 83 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: Now we gotta look because I want to know where 84 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: the boys are buried. Wayne, where's your understanding of where 85 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: they are with the boys? 86 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 10: Well? 87 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: Now see, I only did my deep research for the Witcher's, 88 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 3: not the actual planet family. 89 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: After spending about fifteen minutes walking through vines and tripping 90 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: over a small rock wall, Wayne Witchard and I found 91 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: doctor Clement and his wife's large headstone. There was a 92 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,559 Speaker 1: small pile of rocks nearby that served as a marker 93 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: for several of his children. Desmond Kendrick wasn't able to 94 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: climb back there with us, but he's been here several 95 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: times already. He is a Clement relative. James and his 96 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: brothers were Desmond's great great uncles, and Desmond has visited 97 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: this house since he was a kid. 98 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 5: The great aunt told me where they were buried, and 99 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 5: she said, these were your uncles. And she said, don't 100 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 5: you step on those graves. She said, these are your 101 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 5: uncles and she said that's what you call them. And 102 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 5: I always have because they She made it real to 103 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 5: me and it still is because they were people. She 104 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 5: would say, they were real people. They had real needs, 105 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 5: they had real feelings, just like we do. They were 106 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 5: just in a different time. 107 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: Desmond says that he's always felt like his family's old 108 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: cemetery is still special, even if no one takes care 109 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: of it right now. This homestead Mountain View Plantation was 110 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: where generations of Clements gathered for holidays and funerals and 111 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: Sunday dinners. 112 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 5: They grew up. There was that house made them what 113 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 5: they were. They learned from the land. I mean, and 114 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 5: I look at little things. A lot of people don't 115 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:07,799 Speaker 5: look at things. 116 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 8: Like I do. 117 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 5: I see that. 118 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: Desmond says that during one visit, one of the owners 119 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: had handed him glass bottles that doctor Clement once used 120 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: to hold leeches for medical treatments, which sounds horrible to me, 121 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: but physicians in the eighteen hundreds use them to treat 122 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: everything from tonsillitis to hemorrhoids to infections. The Mountain View 123 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: Home represented doctor Clement's wealth and education. He was a 124 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: physician and a well respected member of the rural community. 125 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: But historian Kelly Brennan says that what was really important 126 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: to Virginians in the eighteen hundreds was not necessarily education 127 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: or even liquid funds like savings in a safe but. 128 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 6: Land money and money is money to Virginians, and this 129 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 6: is true for those who live way out. Money is land, 130 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 6: money is prestige. I've noticed for a lot of them, 131 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 6: they don't don't care if they cultivate it. Especially now 132 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 6: we think of liquidity, right, Land's and investment great, we 133 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 6: want to see certain mental liquidity. Virginians during this period 134 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 6: don't think that way at all. So their attitude is 135 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 6: we like the land because we can cultivate it or 136 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 6: hold on to it or whatever we're going to do 137 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 6: with it. But land is of value. Being educated, isn't 138 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 6: having to actually do with your doctor you're doing things. 139 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 6: All of that stuff is kind of gross to a 140 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 6: Virginia planter. 141 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: The Clements were wealthy, but the money didn't come from 142 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: land ownership. There have been rumors in the Witcher family 143 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: over the years that perhaps Vincent Oliver Witcher didn't approve 144 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: of his granddaughter Victoria marrying James Clement. Desmond Kendrick grew 145 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: up in Mountain Valley, Virginia, not far from Penhook, less 146 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: than thirty miles away. He has an incredible amount of 147 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: family mementos, mostly pictures, and Desmond is very interested in 148 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: the Clement family history, partly because of circumstances, but mostly 149 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: because of one special woman. 150 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 8: To me. 151 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 5: It goes back from the time I was a baby 152 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 5: where I had to spinal meningitis and Maud Clement, who 153 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 5: was an aunt to my dad, found out about it. 154 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 5: She was a historian in her own right. She basically 155 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 5: by mail correspondents, wrote the history of Pittsylvania County, the 156 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 5: first comprehensive history was ever written. She printed it, had 157 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 5: it printed in nineteen twenty nine. But my dad took 158 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 5: me to the nursing home where she was, I think 159 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 5: in Alta Vista. He said that he laid me on 160 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 5: the bed beside her whether you're taking I'm still six 161 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 5: seven months old, and she talked to me just like 162 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 5: I was seven or eight years old and understood everything 163 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 5: she is telling me. She said, you have to overcome 164 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 5: your infirmity, because I'm not going to live much longer, 165 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 5: and you're going to have to do the history. 166 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: So Desmond has been doing that history for decades, ever 167 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: since he could first hold an old ten type photo 168 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: of his great great aunt Victoria and his great great 169 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: uncle James. Desmond loves history so much that he became 170 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: a state archivist, so it's his job to know about 171 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: the families in southern Virginia. Desmond is tasked with presenting 172 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: information on behalf of the state as accurately as possible, 173 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: but along the way, he's also discovered quite a lot 174 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: of mythology about. 175 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: Both families, not just the Clements. 176 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: For example, Desmond has heard locals say that Victoria and 177 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: James's mother didn't get along at all, but that's not 178 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: possible because James's mother died of measles when he was 179 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: just a baby, and that was almost thirty years before 180 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: the feud between the Witchers and the Clements even began. 181 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: Desmond says that this story has become part of local folklore, 182 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: and much of it focuses on the Witchers, not the Clements, 183 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: probably because of Victoria Smith's relationship with her mother's family. 184 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 5: Well things that you read a lot of times come 185 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 5: from the Witcher point of view, and I'm not judging 186 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 5: that either, but from their point of view. Of course, 187 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 5: her mother was a Witcher. Her father was also a 188 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 5: medical doctor. Now, after my knowledge, doctor Smith and doctor 189 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 5: Clement had a big respect for each other. Doctor Smith 190 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 5: was in a generation below doctor Clement. Of such because 191 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 5: a lot of his children were younger, a lot younger 192 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 5: than the Clement children. 193 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: It seems like Victoria's parents, the Smiths, got along with 194 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: James's parents. Both patriarchs were physicians from a similar socioeconomic background. 195 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: But Victoria's grandfather was a different story. Doctor Clements's social 196 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: status could never compete with that of Captain Vincent Oliver Witcher, and. 197 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: That might have bothered the doctor. 198 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver frequently hosted some very powerful politicians from Richmond 199 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: and Washington because of his status with the legislature. That 200 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: would make any in law a little endius. And then 201 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: there's the Witcher temper to watch out for. Vincent Oliver 202 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: hated being slighted, and Desmond says that he believes that 203 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: the former soldier was always armed. The family rumor was 204 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: that the Witchers all had guns, but they like to 205 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: hide daggers in their jackets, but I'm guessing everyone was 206 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: armed in rural Virginia in the eighteen hundreds. Historian Bill 207 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: Grant says that the Witchers were cutthroat if they needed 208 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: to be. 209 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 4: I don't think the Clements were as hot tempered and 210 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 4: violent as the Witchers, but by modern standards, they would 211 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 4: probably be considered hot tempered in violent people, if you 212 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 4: see what I mean? 213 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 2: And is it because they had money and they have power, 214 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: and that's. 215 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:24,599 Speaker 11: What it came down to. 216 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 4: I think the Witchers were powerful, although Clements were not 217 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 4: in substantial people, they were well to do people. I 218 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 4: think the Witches in this instance may have had more 219 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 4: influence and more of an intimidation factor. 220 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 10: So doctor Clement, that house was beautiful. Yeah, I mean 221 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 10: I just went inside it. He obviously was well off. 222 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 10: I don't understand where this story comes from. Where the 223 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 10: Witchers thought that James was not good enough for Victoria. 224 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 10: The families were not in sync in social circles. 225 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: That seems a little odd to me. Maybe that's not true. 226 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 4: It seems odd to me too, Clements, I don't think 227 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 4: we're the brawlers like the Witchers were. If you ask 228 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 4: doctor Clement privately and confidentially, he might say the same thing, 229 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 4: that Victoria is really not at the same social level 230 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 4: that we are. You know what I mean. I think 231 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 4: that the idea that the Clement family was socially beneath it, 232 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 4: it's not true. 233 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: So they seemed to enjoy socializing with one another. They 234 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: even joined some of the same organizations. James Clement and 235 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: his brother Ralph were both members of the Fraternal Society 236 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: the Freemasons, and so was Vincent Oliver Witcher. In fact, 237 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: Lodge number eighty seven was named after him, seven years 238 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: before the feud began. The Freemason Society is the largest 239 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: worldwide organization and perhaps the most enigmatic. At one time, 240 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: the oath bound organization accepted only men. The rituals and 241 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: customs and activities are often concealed, making it a mysterious 242 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: group to many Americans. There have been many many famous Freemasons, 243 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: including Presidents George Way, Washington, Franklin Roosevelt, and Gerald Ford, 244 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: along with Benjamin Franklin and Davy Crockett. It's a pretty 245 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: illustrious group. The Witchers and the Clements were certainly proud 246 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: of their membership with the Freemasons. Beyond that bond, the 247 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: lives of the family members were braided by the time 248 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: the marriage between Victoria and James began to worsen. Bill 249 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: Grant says that Victoria and James might have been related 250 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: generations back because of the Witchers, the Clements, and Victoria's 251 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: father's family, the Smiths. 252 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 4: I think these Witches and Clements who fought each other 253 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 4: might have been like second cousins or something. Those families 254 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 4: had intermarried at least, And I may be confusing that 255 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 4: because the father Clement, George Washington, Clement's first wife was 256 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 4: a Smith, that he might had some relation to them. 257 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: Bill Grant says that this was expected in small communities 258 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: across America in the eighteen hundreds because there weren't many 259 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: choices for fast and convenient transportations, so their options were 260 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: pretty limited. 261 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 4: But any event is small community, and it may even 262 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 4: smaller by the fact that you would have to marry 263 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 4: within your social status, So you had a much smaller 264 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 4: population to start with and a much more narrow range 265 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 4: of potential spouses mates than you would have now, because 266 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 4: you know, you couldn't marry the dirt farmers down the road. 267 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 4: You had to marry the other people who also. 268 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: Own land and so forth, and Desmond Kendrick says that 269 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: there was jealousy between the two families. 270 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: There had to be. 271 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 5: It could have been controversial on land because, like I say, 272 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 5: they both lived. Vincent Witcher lived there close to Mountain 273 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 5: View somewhere. At one point they lived within a mile 274 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 5: of each other, as the crow flies. But I just 275 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 5: kind of feel like in the time that those six 276 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 5: boys were growing up that there might have been some conflict. 277 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 5: And now I might be one hundred and twenty percent wrong, 278 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 5: but I can just see conflict there, and you know, 279 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 5: just jealousy. Maybe because my dad was a doctor, or 280 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 5: my dad was in the House of Delegates. You know, 281 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 5: one family might have been to their thinking a little 282 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 5: bit better than the other one, or maybe we a 283 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 5: little better than you. 284 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: The local folk lord has claimed that Victoria's flirtations in 285 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: James's abuse had sparked this deadly feud, but Desmond doesn't 286 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: think that's true. The conflict must have been deeper, and 287 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: Vicki Borden agrees. 288 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 8: How could it be over one woman or one child 289 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 8: and end up this way? How could it be? It 290 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 8: had to be more than that it had to be 291 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 8: something that was cooking for a while. 292 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: There were likely tensions between the close families for decades, 293 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: but it was a poisonous marriage that caused the already 294 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: tenuous relationship between the Witchers and the Clements to fracture. 295 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: One evening that fall, three young men arrived at the 296 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: small house at the bottom of the hill of the 297 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: Mountain View plantation. James of Victoria both heard a knock. 298 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: The sun had already gone down, and the trio needed 299 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: a place to sleep until morning. Trapesing through the countryside 300 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: at night wasn't always safe in the eighteen hundreds, even 301 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: if you were carrying weapons. They could all be ambushed 302 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: by an animal or a person. They needed to spend 303 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: the night somewhere safe, and James of Victoria's house was nearby. 304 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: James eyed each of them. Two of them were Victoria's relatives, 305 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: a pair of witcher men, but James focused on the 306 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: third man in particular, a young local named William Gilbert, 307 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: whom everyone called Buck. 308 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: Apparently, Victoria was talking to a gentleman by the name 309 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: of William Gilbert, and that's where this whole thing started. 310 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: Victoria was now five months pregnant, with their daughter, and 311 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: she seemed pleased to invite them inside. They had all 312 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: known each other for years. James glared as he watched 313 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: his wife chat with Buck and then point toward their 314 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: second floor where the men could sleep for the night. 315 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: Victoria and Buck had been friends before she and James 316 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: were married, and after she became a wife, Buck would 317 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: visit both of them at the Clement house to play 318 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: cards with Victoria. Four months, James had watched Victoria quietly 319 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: fawn over Buck. At least that's what he thought. It 320 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: seemed clear that they were becoming closer. Bill Gurunt knows 321 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: this story well because he is one of Buck Gilbert's descendants. 322 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 4: So this guy Buck Gilbert, who had been a boyfriend 323 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 4: of Victoria Smith's, I would imagine in modern terms, we 324 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: would think they dated or something. Of course, it wasn't 325 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 4: like that back then, but nothing ever came of it, really, 326 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 4: And then she ends up marrying James Clement, but he 327 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 4: was a very jealous guy, and he continued to think 328 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 4: that Victoria had a thing for Buck Gilbert. 329 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: James quietly agreed to allow the men to stay in 330 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: the guest rooms above while he and Victoria would sleep 331 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: in their bedroom on the first floor. James hooked the 332 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: locks on the doors of the house, and soon the 333 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: oil lanterns were extinguished for the night. James Clement was 334 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: enraged as he roused his wife up early the next morning, 335 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: as Victoria began to prepare breakfast for their guests, James 336 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: cursed her. He believed that a lock on one of 337 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: the home's outer doors had been flipped and the door 338 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: was partially open. As Buck and the other two Witchers 339 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: descended the stairs into the kitchen, James turned on them. 340 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: The door was open, he yelled because Victoria and Buck 341 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: had sneaked off in the middle of the night to 342 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: continue their affair. Victoria was exasperated. She yelled back that 343 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: the door hooks were old and rusty, and a healthy 344 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: gust of wind could send the doors flying open. Victoria 345 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: had grown accustomed to her husband's histrionics, but James seemed 346 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: to be growing even more unstable. 347 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 4: I think James didn't exactly know. James had a suspicion 348 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 4: that his wife was being unfaithful to him. I think so, 349 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 4: and I think he believe it was Buck, but it 350 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 4: might not have been. 351 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: Both Buck and Victoria were either very confused or excellent actors. 352 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: Most people who knew them say they flirted and perhaps 353 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: at one time they had a relationship, but both denied 354 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: that there was a secret meeting that night. James wasn't 355 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: sure what was true, but he was certain that Victoria 356 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: was in love with another man. Whether or not James 357 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: was right about any infidelity, it wasn't the point. His 358 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: angry rants were twisting into terrible threats, and Victoria was 359 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: growing colder toward him. 360 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: She was no longer in love and he knew it. 361 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: Soon after Buck Gilbert and his two friends collected their 362 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: things and left Victoria's house, James locked the door behind them, 363 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: and he continued to lock the doors of the house 364 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: at all times, even during the daytime, which was really 365 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: unusual in the eighteen hundreds. James was becoming subtly threatening 366 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: towards Victoria. Each night, Victoria sat on the bed as 367 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: James examined his collection of weapons. He walked through the 368 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: window in the candlelight, a troubled man desperately trying to 369 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: keep control of his wife. James would place his bowie 370 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: knife and his pistol on the nightstand next. 371 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 7: To the bed. 372 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: He would order Victoria into bed first. Once she was 373 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: under the covers, James would drag over numerous chairs and 374 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: surround the bed with them. He would place several more 375 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: in the passageways so a person would make a loud 376 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: noise if they tried to enter the bedroom or tried 377 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: to leave it. James may have felt the traps that 378 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: he was laying were meant to protect his family, but 379 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: instead they turned Victoria into his prisoner. Dimple Mahaltra is 380 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: a county judge in Austin, Texas who works with a 381 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: domestic violence court. After twenty years of experience with those 382 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: types of cases, she's learned that often abusers use many 383 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: different types of ways to control their families. 384 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 11: If you're talking about intimate partner violence, I have never 385 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 11: seen that it has just come out of nowhere. I 386 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 11: managed the Felony Family Violence Unit for almost three years, 387 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 11: and I can't think of really any situation that I 388 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 11: encountered where this was out of the blue or unexpected. 389 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 11: There are many relationships where maybe there has not been 390 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 11: physical violence, but that you also see course of control 391 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 11: in that relationship. For people who don't know what that means, 392 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 11: it's basically a more subtle type of abusive behavior that's 393 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 11: equally harmful. 394 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: James's threats were now becoming unbearable for Victoria, all while 395 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: she was pregnant with Lilia Maud. He had not physically 396 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: abused Victoria yet, at least not that we know of. 397 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: But even today, young women often don't tell their families 398 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: about abuse. It's possible that that was the case here too, 399 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: but I doubt it. Perhaps the Witchers had prayed that 400 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: James would soften when Lilia Maud was born. In Season 401 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: one of Tenfold, the Scuts had felt the same way 402 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: as Edward Rulolph became more threatening to his pregnant wife Harriet, 403 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: and we know how that turned out. Edward killed Harriet 404 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: and his infant daughter Priscilla. In this story, could fatherhood 405 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: really help James Clement control his jealousy and his insecurity. 406 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: We'll find out soon. Victoria's innocent flirting with Buck Gilbert 407 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: or other young single men might have been harmless. Even 408 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: her family admitted that she like to dance with male friends. 409 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: But Victoria was threatening James's pride. Historian Kelly Brennan says 410 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: that James feared Victoria's lack of attention to their marriage 411 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: would lead to his public humiliation. 412 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 6: The issue isn't that she did something, it's that it 413 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 6: reflects poorly on him. This comes back to him. Everything's 414 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 6: about him. He may be angry with her about the 415 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 6: actual deed, but really, you violated this person that I 416 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 6: have complete dominion over, which means you violated me, and 417 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 6: then you violated my honor. 418 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: James might have thought of Victoria as property, but her 419 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: family believed that he had no right to terrorize her. 420 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: By the winter of eighteen fifty nine, the couple had 421 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: been married for about seven months, and James's erratic behavior 422 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: seemed to get worse. He would jump out of bed 423 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: at the slightest noise, run to the window, and throw 424 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: back the curtains before peering outside. If there were a 425 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: wind at the door, James would creep around the house 426 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: clutching one of his weapons. Victoria was terrified that he 427 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: might shoot someone, even her, especially her. When his in 428 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: laws were visiting, James would appear kind and affectionate, a 429 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: doting husband who was caring for his pregnant wife. When 430 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: they were alone, Victoria said, James became a monster, insulting 431 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: her constantly cursing her supposed affair with Buck Gilbert. James 432 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: would tie a string from the door of the master 433 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: bedroom to the bedpost, so it would trip Victoria if 434 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: she were to sneak out, or Buck if he tried 435 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: to sneak in. James's paranoia wasn't healthy for Victoria, whose 436 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: slim build was already strained as Lilya Maud grew bigger 437 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: by the day. Months earlier, James had warned Victoria about 438 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: dancing with other men. Now he forbade her from even 439 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: talking to men, especially Buck Gilbert. If she were to 440 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: ignore his rule, she could go ahead and return to 441 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: her father's home immediately. For his part, Buck Gilbert tried 442 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: to stay as far away from James Clement as possible. 443 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: Even going to church failed to provide Victoria with any protection. 444 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: One day, James and Victoria and her parents walked into 445 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: their church, which was unusually crowded. The pews reserved for 446 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: ladies were all full, so Victoria and her mother and 447 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: several other women sat down on the seats near a 448 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: group of men in the congregation. These were gentlemen that 449 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: Victoria and James had known four months. They were family friends. 450 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: After the service, James took Victoria aside and screamed at 451 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: her for ignoring their marriage vows sitting closely to men 452 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: was vulgar and indecent. He insisted that this was proof 453 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: of her adultery. James blamed her for not caring about 454 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: him or their unborn child. Katie Witcher says that she's 455 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: not at all surprised by James's accusations. 456 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 2: He seemed very insecure. 457 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 7: There's two different views to have. It's one that she's 458 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 7: promiscuous so much so that she doesn't care about her 459 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 7: own child, which is far less likely to be true 460 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 7: of someone. But society, and especially in older times, it's 461 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 7: so much easier to put that on a woman than 462 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 7: to go against the man's honor because it's like, oh, 463 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 7: our son would never do that. And you see that 464 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 7: a lot when my clients, if they may have like 465 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 7: an abusive husband, the mother in law is almost just 466 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 7: as bad because that cognitive dissonance, you cannot deal with 467 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 7: the truth that who you think this person is is 468 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 7: completely opposite, and they are capable. Every human is capable 469 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 7: of terrible things. 470 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: The Smiths and the Witchers worried about Victoria and her 471 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: growing baby so much that they can considered recommending she 472 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: divorced James, but historian Bill Gurrant says that divorce in 473 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds wasn't easy, particularly for women. 474 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 4: And get the divorce you to it had to go 475 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 4: to the General Simley. That was true in England. That 476 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 4: was true under the law. I don't know when all 477 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 4: those things change, but it basically meant you have a 478 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 4: lot of money to get a divorce because you had 479 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 4: to be able to afford all this stuff, lawyers, you know, 480 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 4: so forth. 481 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: This wasn't a simple decision for Victoria because if she 482 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: divorced James, she would become a single mother, something that 483 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: was shameful in the nineteenth century. Even in cases of 484 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: domestic violence, social mores would have demanded that she stay. 485 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 2: Married, even if she were miserable. And she was miserable. 486 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: James and Victoria had been married for less than a year, 487 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: but James's violent reactions would likely intensify the Witchers knew that. 488 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: Katie Witcher says that as a therapist, she's counseled quite 489 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: a few women about how to leave their abusive husbands, 490 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: so she can empathize with Victoria. 491 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 7: I currently am a therapist for victims of domestic violence, 492 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 7: so I'm working with women that are divorcing their husbands 493 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 7: for being cruel, and so you're seeing that. I can't 494 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 7: imagine not having the ability to do so. So in 495 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 7: a way, I'm also looking at that from that lens 496 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 7: and thinking the witches, we're almost ahead of their time 497 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 7: when it came to divorce and the legal side of that, 498 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 7: and just the expectations of a wife and marriage has 499 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 7: changed quite a. 500 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: Bit, and that's true. 501 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: In the eighteen hundreds, wives were expected to defer to 502 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: their husbands on virtually every issue affecting the family. Historian 503 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: Amanda Foreman wrote a piece on the history of divorce 504 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: in America, and it really speaks to me about how 505 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: divorce both benefits and punishes women. Amanda writes in The Smithsonian, 506 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: multiple studies have shown that women bear the brunt of 507 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: the social and economic burdens that come with divorce. The 508 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: quickest route to poverty is to become a single mother. 509 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: This is awful enough, but what I've find so galling 510 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: is that the right to divorce was meant to be 511 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: a cornerstone of liberty for women. For centuries, divorce in 512 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: the West was a male tool of control, a legislative 513 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: chastity belt designed to ensure that a woman had one 514 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: master while a husband could enjoy many mistresses. It is 515 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: as though having denied women their cake for so long, 516 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: the makers have no wish to see them enjoy it. 517 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: There is no point trying to pin down where things 518 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: went wrong for women, because when it comes to divorce, 519 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: it's not clear that things were ever right. I think 520 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: that's really powerful and Katie, which your agrees, She says 521 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: that even today there's a stigma for women who are divorced. 522 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: She understands that on a personal note, the acrimony between 523 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: James and Victoria must have been very embarrassing, even humiliating 524 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: for both families, especially because their marriage was so brief. 525 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: But Katie says that she's proud of her family because 526 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: they valued Victoria in Liliah Maud's life, even though it 527 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: might lead to social disgrace. 528 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 7: I've also been divorced, and the way that my family 529 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 7: supported me through it, it really makes you think, like, 530 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 7: does that go all the way back to those generations? 531 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 7: So they pave the way. So it's a little bit 532 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 7: of a highlight. Although it ended in a lot of 533 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 7: blood and a lot of pain, there is kind of 534 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 7: that positive light to it that I. 535 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: See James Clement was in a constant state of agitation, 536 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: a man obsessed with controlling every aspect of his wife's life. 537 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: He wasn't the right, he decided. He didn't seem concerned 538 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: about interference from his wife's family. Doctor Smith didn't seem 539 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: dangerous or vengeful, but the Witchers were. Rand Witcher says 540 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: that his families prestige, their power, and their military history 541 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: all pointed toward problems for James Clement. 542 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 5: Very few families back then were as powerful as Witches were. 543 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 3: That I mean, they didn't take no jump from nobody. 544 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: James was right to fear the Witcher family because, in 545 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: addition to their political standing, the men in the family 546 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 1: had a long history of military experience. They knew how 547 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: to fight. Wayne Witcher has spent years researching the family, 548 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: tracing their story back by more than four hundred years. 549 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: He was especially interested in their history with the military, 550 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: and boy did they have strong ties to this country's 551 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: biggest wars. Wayne says he discovered that three Witchers arrived 552 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: in America in the sixteen hundreds, John, James, and Earle 553 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: One returned to England. Eventually, John was known as the 554 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: original patriarch of the Witcher family in the United States. 555 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 2: In seventeen sixty. 556 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: Eight, William Witcher Senior served in the Virginia Colonial Militia 557 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: and was eventually appointed a major. And this is a 558 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: reminder that some clements served with him in the militia. 559 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: In seventeen seventy six, Major Witcher commanded a force of 560 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: two hundred men to guard Fort Patrick Henry against attacks 561 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: from Native Americans in Tennessee. 562 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 3: I've seen records where they were involved not only in 563 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 3: the Revolution, but also in conflicts that happened before the 564 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: Revolution in that region of Virginia. They definitely were actors 565 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 3: in the Revolution, and then they were actors in the 566 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 3: War of eighteen twelve. They were soldiers, and they were 567 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 3: people involved in the military at higher levels as far 568 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 3: as ranking officers and things like that. 569 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: Major William Witcher's grandson, Vincent Oliver Wicher, was a captain 570 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: in the War of eighteen twelve, when America again went 571 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: to battle against Great Britain, this time over trade restrictions 572 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: and US expansion. Wayne Witcher says that both Major William 573 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: Witcher and Captain Vincent oliver Wicher were considered war heroes 574 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 1: in Virginia. 575 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 2: They certainly killed men during. 576 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: Battles, and they were prepared to kill anyone to protect 577 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: their families and their land. Such was the life for 578 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: many people in nineteenth century rural America. 579 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 3: These people fought during the War of eighteen twelve, These 580 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 3: people fought during the Revolutionary War. These people fought Native 581 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 3: American skirmishes. They fought one another to keep their household safe. 582 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 3: You didn't call nine one one and get law enforcement 583 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 3: down there to help you. You had to pull your 584 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 3: own guns out, put your own posse together, and defend 585 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 3: your own. 586 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: Neighborhood's Frontier justice is what you're talking about. 587 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 3: Frontier justice. And we look back at it and we 588 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 3: think that they're barbarians. They looked at it as just 589 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 3: protecting their families, and so I don't think with our 590 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 3: perspective today we can understand the way that they were 591 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 3: thinking then, and right and wrong is viewed differently because 592 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 3: these are different times. 593 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: By the time the marriage between James Clement and Victoria 594 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: Smith was dissolving in eighteen fifty nine, the Civil War 595 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: was less than a year away. Witcher would join the 596 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: army and go on to become the most notorious Witcher 597 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: of them all. 598 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 3: Definitely in the Civil War, that's where they made a 599 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 3: name for themselves, generally for the South. The vast majority 600 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 3: of Witchers were Confederates. There were some who fought for 601 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 3: the Union side, but many of those Witches were Confederate soldiers. 602 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 1: Just eighteen months later, Captain Vincent Oliver Witcher's grandson, Vincent Addison, 603 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: would become an infantryman and earn a reputation as a 604 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: vicious soldier who was ruthless on the battlefield. He left 605 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: the military as a colonel who boasted of killing many 606 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: many Yankees. So Captain Vincent Oliver Witcher had been a 607 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: leader on the warfront and his youth and his grandson, 608 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: Vincent Addison would become a legendary soldier too. Vincent Addison 609 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: looked up to his grandfather because Vincent Oliver had quite 610 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: a formidable reputation. 611 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 4: Captain Witcher, my impression, very violent, high tempered man as 612 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 4: all of his sons. 613 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 2: And so were the Clements. 614 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: The clear of the differences between these families becomes the 615 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: more difficult the situation seems. Victoria and James seemed like 616 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: a terrible match. How could they possibly end up married 617 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: if they were so different. Their great great granddaughter, Vicky Borden, 618 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: wonders about the rumors of Victoria's flirting in James's temper. 619 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 8: Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know. I 620 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 8: think people said what they had to say. Maybe Victoria 621 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 8: did dance with other people, you know. They described her 622 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 8: as frivolous and fun loving, and why did she marry 623 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 8: him to begin with? Who knows? People rewrite history all 624 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 8: the time. Somewhere there's some truth in that. 625 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,959 Speaker 1: After this conversation, I sent Vicky a copy of something 626 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 1: that Victoria filed on August thirtieth, eighteen fifty nine, called 627 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: a Bill of Complaint for divorce, which she had submitted 628 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: to a Circuit court judge in Franklin County to formally 629 00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: file for divorce. In that document described her relationship with 630 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: James Clement. It's very detailed and very disturbing, and some 631 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: of the things that Victoria says that James did were 632 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: really shocking to VICKI. And then James responded to Victoria's 633 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: accusations with his own accusations, and those were also dreadful. 634 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: Vicky and I were confused about who was telling the truth. 635 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 2: More on that soon. 636 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: When the Witchers found out about all of it, they 637 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: became enraged, and so did the Clements. As the tensions 638 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: between the Clements and the Witchers deepened, both families hoped 639 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: for the best, but readied their weapons. 640 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 9: These are two powerful families, two big families, and here 641 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 9: we go. You know this is not going to be 642 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 9: taken lightly. 643 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: Wayne Witcher says it didn't take much for the vitriol 644 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: between the two families to become unbearable. 645 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 2: A calamity was coming. 646 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 3: I think they were hot heads, and I think they 647 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 3: were willing to engage in a feud at the drop 648 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 3: of the hat. And I guess that the thing that 649 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 3: happened here which caused the problem was that somebody's honor 650 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 3: had been impugned. And that apparently was very important to 651 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 3: Vincent Oliver Witcher and to Vincent Addison Witcher. When Victoria 652 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 3: and her honor was impugned when they made the accusations 653 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 3: against her concerning William Gilbert, then it apparently was something 654 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 3: that they took personal, and so they took it to 655 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 3: a new level, which is really ramping up that situation. 656 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: One night, Victoria glared at James smirked and said something unthinkable. 657 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: She wondered if the baby would look like someone they 658 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: both knew, someone who was threatening to James and his honor. 659 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: And I'm certain that his response wasn't at all. 660 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 2: What Victoria Clement expected. It was so much worse. 661 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: On the next episode of tenfold more wicked on exactly right. 662 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 3: I cannot get over what you told me to inflict 663 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 3: pain on an innocent child just to make your point 664 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 3: to the person that you're having a problem with. To me, 665 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 3: that's cruelty at another level, I have lived this. 666 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 8: And I have never heard any of this. I never 667 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 8: heard anyone say one unkind word about James Clemmer. I 668 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 8: never heard anything about abuse of anyone or anybody. 669 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 11: You do see remorse, but sometimes that remorse is authentic 670 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 11: and genuine, and it is a call for help and 671 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 11: they want to change their behavior. And sometimes that remorses manipulation. 672 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 3: Maybe Vincent Witcher and maybe Vincent Addison Witcher, maybe they 673 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 3: knew about this guy, and they knew how he was. 674 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 3: Maybe they saw him treat Victoria this way publicly and 675 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 3: in private. Maybe they already had some issue with this guy, 676 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 3: knowing that he was abusing a mistreating. 677 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: Victoria My new book, All That Is Wicked, is available 678 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: for pre order now, including the audiobook. All that Is 679 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: Wicked is based on our first season of tenfold More Wicked. 680 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer 681 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 682 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 683 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: right tenfold More Media Production producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Mrosi 684 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 1: and Laura Sobole, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, 685 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff 686 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at 687 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. And 688 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: if you know of a historical true crime that could 689 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: use some attention, email us at info at Tenfoldmoremedia dot com. 690 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: Subscribe now on Amazon Music, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 691 00:39:59,040 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: you like to listen.