1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Evan Asto is great 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: to have you with a staff writer the New Yorkers. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tom alluded to there. The new book is called The 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Haves and Have Yachts Dispatches on the Ultra Rich. Congrats 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: on the book. Congrats also on the title, which is excellent. 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: Let's start with the warning that we heard from former 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: President Biden has prepared to leave office, he said today, 8 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: and oligarchy is taking shape in America, of extreme wealth, 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: power and influence that really threatens our entire democracy, our 10 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: basic rights and freedom. He sounded the alarm as he 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: was making his way to the exit. What has changed 12 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to wealth inequality in this country over 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: the last five six months. 14 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 2: Thanks guys, by the way, Tom, you made my day. 15 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: We live in a world, John McPhee made. I'll say 16 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: that what President Biden was getting at it is something 17 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 2: really important to a lot of folks. Frankly, it sounded 18 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: almost belated. Look, the good news is this country has 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: never been wealthier in so many respects. We are build 20 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: holding companies, were on the cusp of a new era 21 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: of technology and all the ways you talk about on 22 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: the show every day whether it's AI and robotics, and 23 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: yet at the same time, as you know, there are 24 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: about half of American adults who will tell you that 25 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: they don't have one thousand dollars to spend on an 26 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: emergency expense. We are at a point now. It's really 27 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: sort of similar to where we've been at moments in 28 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: our history where we have tremendous technological opportunity, huge wealth creation, 29 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: and we're also facing a fork in the road to 30 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: make sure that that is also not steering our government 31 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: down a path that Henry Ford used to say that 32 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: he wanted to make sure that his own employees, his 33 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: own workers, could afford the cars he was making. And 34 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: those are some of the decisions we have to be 35 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: making now. 36 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: This is clearly a theme that has animated a lot 37 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: of your work. I look at the Osmos Ooh for 38 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: going back to your first book, Age of Ambition, Chasing Fortune, 39 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: Truth and Faith in the New China, which I read 40 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: on my first trip to Shanghai, and you re mark 41 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: then on just the abundance the amount of wealthy excitement 42 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: about wealth and upper mobility in China. As you look 43 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: at this particular book, are we looking at something that's 44 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: uniquely American, or has this rise of the ultra rich 45 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: and sort of shared globally. 46 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fascinating parallel in many ways, David. I 47 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: mean I first started reading in a sense about the 48 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: American guilded age when I was living in China, because 49 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: I was trying to understand what was happening. We were 50 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: seeing railroads built at a pace we hadn't seen since 51 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: America in the nineteenth century. It's fitting in some ways 52 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: that I used The Great Gatsby when I lived in 53 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: Beijing to conceptualize it. Here we are, it's twenty twenty 54 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: five hundredth anniversary of that book. There are a lot 55 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: of lessons in there about how do you take that 56 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: sense of cultural energy that we might have had at 57 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,279 Speaker 2: certain moments in the Roaring twenties, but also the awareness 58 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: that without making really smart choices, we're not going to 59 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: make sure that this money gets into the hands of 60 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 2: people who can rise with the tide. 61 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 3: Evan, you grew up in the crucible this Grantwich, Connecticut, 62 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 3: where I'm sure three kids down the street did have 63 00:02:58,600 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 3: Hinckley picnic boats. 64 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: You didn't. 65 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: Your father was acclaimed within journalism, But what does the 66 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 3: crew do below the fancy people to try to get 67 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: their kids to motivate and have a good life and 68 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: even aspire to be richer. 69 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 2: I mean, this is. 70 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 3: Topic one right now, between the buffeting of AI the 71 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: decline of liberal arts. What do the kids do just 72 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: below those with the super yachts. 73 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I face these questions myself. I'm a dad, 74 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: I've got two kids. I think about the challenges of 75 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: people coming out of school today and how hard it's 76 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: going to be to get those first jobs. But here's 77 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: the thing, you know, we have some pretty great models 78 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: to inspire us in terms of how to think about 79 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: being energetic, being creative. I think about Warren Buffett. He's 80 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: on our minds a lot, all of us these days. 81 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: You know. He talks about how much he left, how 82 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: much he will leave to his kids. He likes to say, 83 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: as you know, Tommy says, I want to leave them 84 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: enough that they can do anything, but not so much 85 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: that they can do nothing. I try, as I think 86 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: about the opportunities that are coming to say to people, Look, 87 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: it's not enough for us to just say. Elon Musk 88 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: has now crossed the four hundred billion dollar threshold We've 89 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: never had somebody with that kind of prosperity. Isn't that 90 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: a sin of strength? No, we have to be saying 91 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: to people, if we don't make smart choices, it's going 92 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: to end up with too many musks and perhaps not 93 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: enough buffets. And I think that's an important thing to 94 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: keep in mind. 95 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: Spare a teer for the billionaire class. But I am 96 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: interested in this element of loneliness that comes through in 97 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: your book. So if you have billionaires buying these super yachts, 98 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: they can be in isolation on the open seas. You 99 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: have another chapter or another piece that you've written about 100 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley billionaires who are looking to remote New Zealand 101 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: as a place where they can go. Whether the storm, 102 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: if that's a nuclear disaster or something that's a natural disaster, 103 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: what explains it? And just I think the contrast is 104 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: so starked to what you were talking about a moment ago, 105 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: which is during the Gilded Age, you had billionaires, had 106 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: multi billionaires, I should say, maybe not billionaires who are 107 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: interested in philanthropy and in helping the wider population and 108 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: building libraries in towns across America. It seems like there 109 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: is a stark contrast that exists now between the aspirations 110 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: of a lot of these ultra wealthy than what we 111 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: saw before. 112 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, David, you know, for the reporting for this book, 113 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: I went to New Zealand, I went to Monico. Hardship 114 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: pay was not forthcoming despite my insistence, And it was 115 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,679 Speaker 2: a fascinating way of getting into the minds of people 116 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: who have succeeded. And I think what you find in 117 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: a lot of cases, and this is the surprise, is 118 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: a sense of fear. Frankly, a sense of verdigo. You know, 119 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: a lot of people will say, look, you've made all 120 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: the money in the world, what are you afraid of? 121 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: Why do you need to stand on the stage with 122 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: a president who you may not even necessarily ideologically agree with. 123 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: And I think what that tells us is that the 124 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: higher you get, you actually can end up feeling quite vulnerable, 125 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: quite exposed. I mean, as Silicon Valley CEO said to me, 126 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: I keep a helicopter gassed up all the time, and 127 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: I have a bunker with an air filtration system. And 128 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: I think that is Another former hedge fund manager said 129 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: to me, Look, there are twenty five hedge fund managers 130 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 2: in this country who make it more money, and by 131 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 2: and then all of the kindergartener teachers, and he said, 132 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: and it doesn't feel good to be one of those 133 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: twenty five. That's the vertigo