Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Okay, solar cars. What does that make you
Speaker 1: think of? For me, it's definitely those low flat, spaceship
Speaker 1: looking cars built by universities racing on some salt flat somewhere.
Speaker 1: Today on Switched On, we'll take a break from COVID
Speaker 1: nineteen and its impact on everything we cover and talk
Speaker 1: about those solar cars. The interview is back from early
Speaker 1: February where we spoke with Hugh Bromley, who leads consumer
Speaker 1: behavior research for BENF, about his report titled Solar Powered
Speaker 1: Cars Trickle or Charged, where in the opening line he says, quote,
Speaker 1: solar powered vehicles are hitting the frequent roadways, so he'll
Speaker 1: tell us to what extent they're out on the road
Speaker 1: and how much of it is real and how much
Speaker 1: of it is a gimmick. Being if users can get
Speaker 1: this report on bf dot com to be NF mobile
Speaker 1: app and the Bloomberg terminal as a reminder being if
Speaker 1: does not provide investment or strategy advice, and you can
Speaker 1: hear the full disclaimer at the end of the show
Speaker 1: him Mark Taylor, and you're listening to switch on to
Speaker 1: BENF podcast. Now, Hugh, why are we studying solar powered cars?
Speaker 1: Solar powered cars from a long tiving bunched in with
Speaker 1: all the other absurd concepts like solar powered roads. Is
Speaker 1: it a solar powered car? Is it solar on a car.
Speaker 1: We're starting to see some big, big automotive brands put
Speaker 1: solar into their vehicles. In some cases it's just there
Speaker 1: to appeal to some new buyer, but in other cases
Speaker 1: it could make a little bit of a difference to
Speaker 1: your ev range. But there's lots of IFFs there. Okay,
Speaker 1: so this is not a new idea, is it. No,
Speaker 1: it's not. I mean I remember in Colors drive you
Speaker 1: around and beat up old auti that had solar cells
Speaker 1: in its sun roof, So they've been out there. The
Speaker 1: first generation Leaf had a little solar cell and its
Speaker 1: back spoiler. So the idea you point out in the
Speaker 1: note has actually been around since the late fifties. They
Speaker 1: call it bottled up solar energy that would soon be
Speaker 1: driving people around, right, Yeah, And this kind of Jetson's
Speaker 1: idea that we'd soon have these levitating vehicles driven by
Speaker 1: solar and judging up batteries to get you around. There's
Speaker 1: always been something coming, right, but it's only really now
Speaker 1: that we've seen this shift to us for k I,
Speaker 1: he's hitting the streets that it's more than that gimmick
Speaker 1: that sits in your sunroof and maybe charges your starter battery,
Speaker 1: maybe runs a fan in your cabin. And now it's
Speaker 1: actually something you can do that's helpful, that's practical, and
Speaker 1: that that's to to charge you attraction battery. So let's
Speaker 1: go through that. So there are three main types of implementation.
Speaker 1: Can you list those out for us? The first one
Speaker 1: is those auxiliary panels, and those ones are basically gimmick.
Speaker 1: It's just trickle charging your starter a motor, or it
Speaker 1: might be running a ventilation fan. Does that mean though,
Speaker 1: if your battery diet and you needed a jump, you
Speaker 1: could rely on solar power maybe eventually if you waited
Speaker 1: a few days and came back, maybe then maybe then
Speaker 1: you get going again. The second one is kind of
Speaker 1: what I call supplementary. So these are now connected to
Speaker 1: your attraction battery, but they're pretty small, so it might
Speaker 1: only be giving you a couple of miles a day
Speaker 1: of range at best, and might be still the size
Speaker 1: of just the sun roof for a little bit bigger.
Speaker 1: And then you have the dream, which is to be
Speaker 1: a primarily solar powered vehicle. There's a couple of startups
Speaker 1: that have pretty promising products. There's one start in particular,
Speaker 1: a company called light Year and then Model the light
Speaker 1: Year one out of the Netherlands, and that's a concept
Speaker 1: to the moment, but they're looking to go into production
Speaker 1: in the next couple of years. And that's a vehicle
Speaker 1: that won't be exclusively solar powered, but it will be
Speaker 1: potentially primarily solo powered, depending on how you use it.
Speaker 1: And they're currently just the medals taking pre orders, but
Speaker 1: they're about to open up the US office. They're trying
Speaker 1: to get their price down to the less than half
Speaker 1: aware it is now. You know, if all these things
Speaker 1: fall into place, it doesn't just put solar into a vehicle,
Speaker 1: but actually changes a lot of the vehicle designed to
Speaker 1: to make it kind of supportive of that new drive train.
Speaker 1: So let's go into that supplementary power a bit more.
Speaker 1: You said there's two main benefits to it, kind of
Speaker 1: outline these already, but to boost the range for one
Speaker 1: and two to reduce the time spent charging. Now to me,
Speaker 1: they seem kind of mutually exclusive, right that if you're
Speaker 1: using the power of the sun to extend your range.
Speaker 1: You're using that to add power to your battery, you're
Speaker 1: using that power to drive, so you're still gonna be
Speaker 1: spending as much time at the charging station as you would.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem quite a work for me. Well, I
Speaker 1: think the average American now drives about thirty miles a day, right,
Speaker 1: So these little sun routs are not going to do that.
Speaker 1: They're going to do a tenth that that you might
Speaker 1: get two to five miles out of it, depending on
Speaker 1: on the size of the array and the size of
Speaker 1: the vehicle. So it really is only just topping it up.
Speaker 1: But that means you might only need to visit the
Speaker 1: charging station for ten minutes less. Or you know, if
Speaker 1: it's a car that you don't use every day and
Speaker 1: sits on the street gathering sunlight, you know, throughout the week,
Speaker 1: and then on the weekends, you know, you might want
Speaker 1: to make a run out of town. It can kind
Speaker 1: of accumulate over time, so it's not a game change.
Speaker 1: And maybe the flip side is there are users who
Speaker 1: do just pot around town and don't go very far,
Speaker 1: and this could make a difference for them. It's not
Speaker 1: there to totally replace your charging network or your home
Speaker 1: charging by any means, it's just a little bit of
Speaker 1: extra juice. You think about share cars, they sit on
Speaker 1: the street all day or all the time and often
Speaker 1: don't go very far, in which case they could just
Speaker 1: be there. It's sucking up sunlight as well. Okay, so
Speaker 1: let's talk about the numbers. So they can extend the
Speaker 1: range a couple of miles for a sunroof based array,
Speaker 1: but for a bigger array for your whole roof. How
Speaker 1: far are we talking? How big is the array? Supplementary
Speaker 1: vehicles for there's two on the market globally that are
Speaker 1: connected to the traction batteries. It's on the Toyota Prime,
Speaker 1: they're not not in the US models, and on the
Speaker 1: Sonata Hybrid. The Preyers can get about three and a
Speaker 1: half k's of of additional range. The company says two
Speaker 1: miles to day of additional range. It's not huge, that's
Speaker 1: that's only a smaller rates whats so you know that's
Speaker 1: like putting half of solar panel on your roof basically,
Speaker 1: and give us some context, how big is a ray
Speaker 1: on a rooftop? Between four and seven or eight killer
Speaker 1: what's on your roof? So you know this is tiny?
Speaker 1: You know and how to get these the ones that
Speaker 1: are just that are touched to hybrid. What's okay? So
Speaker 1: quite a bit smaller, quite a bit smaller. You might
Speaker 1: put twenty panels in your roof. This is half a
Speaker 1: panel that you're putting on your car. And spaces is
Speaker 1: a limiting factor here, right, But actually what you're seeing
Speaker 1: in there's this company's son No in Germany, and they're
Speaker 1: not just filling up the roof, but they're starting to
Speaker 1: fill up the body panels as well. Or at the
Speaker 1: point where solar is cheap enough that you don't need
Speaker 1: to orientate it perfectly. You just want to suck up
Speaker 1: all that diffuse slide as well and get the extra miles.
Speaker 1: You spoke at the BNF summit not too long ago
Speaker 1: in San Francisco a bit about foreigm factor in electric vehicles,
Speaker 1: how looks actually matter? Would you drive a car with
Speaker 1: solar cells all around it? I love the idea as
Speaker 1: a former solar analyst, but I think the real challenge
Speaker 1: for me is the premium you're going to pay. The
Speaker 1: soul is actually not worth a lot here. There maybe
Speaker 1: only a hundred dollars with the solar cells that go
Speaker 1: into one of these roofs, but you're probably talking about
Speaker 1: a one thousand to even three thousand dollar premium on
Speaker 1: these vehicles. And the big factor there is the glass
Speaker 1: that encapsulates the solar cell. That's not that different to
Speaker 1: what you'd pay for a full panoramic sunroof on your
Speaker 1: vehicle anyway, but in which case you get to bask
Speaker 1: in all the lights and everything else. So the idea is,
Speaker 1: are you going to pay a premium for that big
Speaker 1: glass roof and then you're going to take away the
Speaker 1: benefits of it by covering and solar Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: don't know if that appeals to all that many people,
Speaker 1: but there'll be something. I'm hesitating here because I don't
Speaker 1: know what I would do. I'm not sure if I
Speaker 1: would want to drive one it's covered in solar panels.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it might be
Speaker 1: more likely that you see this going into the body panels.
Speaker 1: Then it doesn't interfere with your comfort level, and if
Speaker 1: you don't get quite as much power out of it,
Speaker 1: it's okay. The solar panels are dirt cheap. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: you mentioned Hyundai, you mentioned Toyota, So no, no, and
Speaker 1: late year who else is thinking about this or is
Speaker 1: involved in it. The other one that's been out there
Speaker 1: for a long time is actually Karma the Fiska Karma
Speaker 1: had a solar panel in its roof that was only
Speaker 1: run for about eighteen months. That original system wasn't hooked
Speaker 1: up to the traction battery though it's a plug in hybrid,
Speaker 1: but the solar panel only power a fan in the cabin. Again,
Speaker 1: the new version has a bigger solar panel and actually
Speaker 1: againt the traction battery now, so it does make a difference,
Speaker 1: albeit on a vehicle that's not really designed for efficiency
Speaker 1: there for power, what do you see for those types
Speaker 1: of companies? Do you see them making it on their own,
Speaker 1: being bought by a bigger automaker, or just going under. Well,
Speaker 1: at the moment, they're doing a lot of it themselves
Speaker 1: or through partnerships with specially firm. So, for example, the
Speaker 1: Sono sign is going to be manufactured in Sweden what
Speaker 1: is now an electric vehicle hub at a former SAD plant.
Speaker 1: The light Year one has just announced that we outsourcing
Speaker 1: production to a partner, not doing it themselves. But what's
Speaker 1: really interesting is always innovations occurring. We're seeing these startups
Speaker 1: that have pretty cool technology may not scale, but even
Speaker 1: the technology within the vehicle itself, embedding the cell into
Speaker 1: the panels, and the automakers haven't touched it. There's no
Speaker 1: automakers that have either of you partner directly with them
Speaker 1: or put funds in or participated in the venture rounds.
Speaker 1: And actually there could be something here. They're getting pre
Speaker 1: orders that aren't insignificant. Do you think the big iteomakers
Speaker 1: are missing it or just not paying attention. I suspect
Speaker 1: it's mostly not paying attention. There have been automakers that
Speaker 1: have tried and been burnt by Solar in the past.
Speaker 1: Because in your report you have a chart in there
Speaker 1: that shows our top ten automakers have at least considered
Speaker 1: this or tried it in some way. What's holding them
Speaker 1: all back? Everyone has right or the automakers were either
Speaker 1: involved in one of the university racing teams or their
Speaker 1: engineers and designers wanted to put it in a roof.
Speaker 1: Nothing is made in his production outside of the turn
Speaker 1: and they on the model and these really old autias
Speaker 1: and masters. I'm a little bit surprised that hasn't been
Speaker 1: a bit more speculation on this, even the solar industry
Speaker 1: is not quite are yet. They're selling normal cells into
Speaker 1: into these manufacturers rather than being involved themselves. But that
Speaker 1: could change, it seems in electric vehicles. You know one
Speaker 1: thing that has always been the thing that is making
Speaker 1: a difference, but not as talked about it is delivery
Speaker 1: vehicles or freight or something like that. This seems to
Speaker 1: be a perfect application for delivery vehicles as well. Putting
Speaker 1: solar rays on panel vans maybe, but I think at
Speaker 1: the price point I said before, you know, one of
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars, it's not going to pay itself back. Okay,
Speaker 1: So if you if you suddenly translate this to a
Speaker 1: more rational consumer, it probably doesn't make sense. We have
Speaker 1: seen companies wrap bus roots and pannier vans in thin
Speaker 1: film solar in the past. Those haven't gone all that
Speaker 1: far from a mixture of bad technology, choice and questionable vendors.
Speaker 1: But if the economics could stack up there, you're right,
Speaker 1: it's an application that might make more sense. They're on
Speaker 1: the road, they're exposed, they're not parked on the crown.
Speaker 1: There's more opportunity potentially. Okay, So why this why now?
Speaker 1: Why is this picking up at all? So one reason
Speaker 1: is just that solar is very cheer, but that doesn't
Speaker 1: really explain it. There's been no solar breakthrough that suddenly
Speaker 1: it makes sense. In vehicles again, these companies are using
Speaker 1: solar cells that are basically the same that are going
Speaker 1: on your roof into the field. What's really different is
Speaker 1: that one we have electric vehicles on the road, and secondly,
Speaker 1: those electric vehicles are becoming much more efficient that you
Speaker 1: can go a whole lot further on a killed hour
Speaker 1: of stored energy now you could a few years ago.
Speaker 1: And that means that if you have solar cells becoming
Speaker 1: a little bit more efficient and cars becoming a whole
Speaker 1: lot more efficient, those solar panels suddenly make a bigger difference.
Speaker 1: And also varies depending on the vehicle. Right, So the
Speaker 1: plug in hybrids tend to be less electrically efficient than
Speaker 1: a full electric vehicle, so you won't get as much
Speaker 1: bank for your solar cell on a on a plug
Speaker 1: in hybrid as you would on a on a full
Speaker 1: electric vehicle. So this is on the margins. Do you
Speaker 1: think it will stay in the margins? You'll we'll start
Speaker 1: to see them on our cars in the near future.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to see more just because we're
Speaker 1: at the point where like, why not, you know, you're
Speaker 1: talking about a hundred bucks of solar on a forty
Speaker 1: fifty dollar vehicle. Why not? TESL has been the real
Speaker 1: absent name here for a long time. But once they're
Speaker 1: cann put on the Model three, then and happen. There's
Speaker 1: now an announcement that it will go on the cyber truck.
Speaker 1: May or may not happen. I believe must Well, it's
Speaker 1: going to be its own roof and potentially these big
Speaker 1: flap out panels, so that would be different. But I
Speaker 1: think we'll continue to see it as an option in
Speaker 1: cars that have panoramic some roofs anyway, But I'm not
Speaker 1: sure how big the addressing market is for how many
Speaker 1: customers actually want to sacrifice some they're a light in
Speaker 1: order to get solar panels and not get a discount
Speaker 1: for that. But if things move a little bit further
Speaker 1: and it's integrated into body panels, into your front hood
Speaker 1: or your side panels at the right price, it delivers
Speaker 1: some benefit. It doesn't take you off the grid. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're going to run out of juice five
Speaker 1: kilometers down the road and have to pull over and
Speaker 1: wait three days for a recharge. It just means that
Speaker 1: you have that little bit extra of free range every day.
Speaker 1: I'll take it. I'll take free range. That sounds great.
Speaker 1: Thanks you, Thanks for coming in, No problem, Bloomberg. Any
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