1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Hey, Katie, do you feel lucky to be who you are? 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: I guess so. I don't really know how to be 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: anyone else, so I guess being me feels pretty good. Well, 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: do you ever think about all of the other possible 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: Katie's out there, like maybe a Katie who became a 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: snake wrangler instead of a podcaster? Yeah, you know, out 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: there in the Katy Verse. Wow, the Katie Verse, I like. 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 1: I like how that rolls off the tongue. I think 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: it's better than the multi Katie, the multi Katie cinematic universe. 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Good luck at the box office with that one. But 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: something I wonder about if you're thinking about all the 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: possible instantations of you, is whether they all feel lucky 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: to be where they ended up or if you know 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: you're unusual, if you're an outlier. Well, I feel like 15 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: Katie the bee Keeper and Katie the Accounts Received Double 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: Manager probably aren't on a podcast, so you're not getting 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: a representative sample until physics gives us a way to 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: travel through the Katy Verse. I have to warn you, though, 19 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: before you visit the mass of the Katie versus obscure 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: trivia about parasites and also pictures of my dog. Hi, 21 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist in this universe and 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 1: probably also in many other of the Daniel versus. I'm 23 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: Katie Golden. I'm the host of Creature Feature in this 24 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: universe and the CEO of Beekeepers Anonymous in some other universe. 25 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: Do you mean that to be a negative? Somehow? You 26 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: put beekeepers up there with like accounts receivable, as if 27 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: being a beekeeper is a horrible fate. It sounds wonderful 28 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: to me. You have like thousands of pets. No, I'm 29 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying if 30 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: I'm busy keeping bees, I'm not going to bother with 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: him doing a podcast. It's an all encompassing kind of job. 32 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: I think it is. It's hard to keep bees alive. Well, 33 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: was there a time in your life when you thought 34 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: about being a beekeeper? Was that an alternative version of you? 35 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: I think so, because I like the idea of it. 36 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I never got stung by 37 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: any bees. Actually, I only got stung by a bee 38 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: once an adulthood, and it was a complete accident and 39 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: it didn't really hurt that much. So yeah, no, I 40 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: think me and bees have something some kind of nice vibe. 41 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: It sounds like beekeeping might also be in your future. 42 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: But it makes me wonder about like the path of 43 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: our lives, you know, how we ended up where we are, 44 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: how many decisions led to us being just right exactly 45 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: where we are, and how common that is, you know, 46 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: out there. And then Daniel verse, how many of us 47 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: really did become partical physicists, and how many of us 48 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: are unemployed writers sleeping under highways. I do like the 49 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: idea of having sort of a big conference, either in 50 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: the Daniel verse or the Katie Verse or listener name verse, 51 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: where you get to meet all your various other selves 52 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: and just kind of have like the Daniel Conference or 53 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: the Katie Conference, and all the various Katies and Daniels, 54 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, just meeting together, swapping notes, you know, kind 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: of thing like, oh, these life choices ended up here 56 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: and you somehow became a dictator. That's interesting. Well, welcome 57 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: to the podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, because 58 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: all of your life choices lead you to be right here, 59 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: right now, listening to this podcast about everything that's happening 60 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: in this universe. The way it is the way it 61 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: might have been, the way it turned out, and the 62 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: way it cannot be. On this podcast, we seek to 63 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: unravel the very nature of space and time, to reveal 64 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: the truth about the universe, if it even exists, To 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: drill down into the deepest foundations, the very bedrock of reality, 66 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: and understand the universe at its core. We talk about 67 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: the things that we do understand and all the things 68 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: that we do not understand. We make a bunch of jokes, 69 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: we make fun of beekeepers, and we explain all of 70 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: it to you. My friend and co host, Orgy can't 71 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: be here today. He's on a well deserved vacation, and 72 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: so as usual, we've invited Katie to step in and 73 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: make a bunch of jokes. Maybe I'm just an alternate 74 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: universe version of Jorge. But you two exist in the 75 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: same universe, don't you. Have you guys ever spoken I've 76 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: never been in the same room with him, I've never 77 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: spoken to him directly. How do I know that that's true. 78 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: I've never been on the call with the both of you. 79 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: Maybe that's impossible. Is one of you Clark Kent and 80 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: the other one Superman? It's the glasses only one of 81 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: us those glasses. That's right? Are you saying? If you 82 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: take off your glasses, you look like Jorge? That's my secret. 83 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: The the glass has really changed my entire facial sort 84 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: of structure. But you know, this kind of thinking, wondering 85 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: how you got to be where you are and whether 86 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: you could have ended up in a different place in 87 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: your life, extends well beyond you and your life choices. 88 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: It extends also to humanity. You know, think about the 89 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: various things that had to happen for humans to even 90 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: be on this planet. Beyond just that crazy asteroid that 91 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: wiped out our competitors sixty five million years ago, there 92 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: were so many branching points where life could have gone 93 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: this way or that way. The chances of humans evolving 94 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: on Earth itself seems sort of infinitesimal, and yet here 95 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: we are. What do you make of that, Katie? I 96 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: often wonder about if the chemistry of Earth was just 97 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: slightly different, where it was more of a water planet, 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: if we would have had a species of super intelligent 99 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: cephalopods of some kind of underwater society, or if that 100 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: just wouldn't be possible, if their tentacles would get too 101 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: tangled to ever be able to make tools, and could 102 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: you have podcasts, you know, through the muffled sounds of water, 103 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: or would we be communicating in some other way? What 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of jokes do cephalopods make? Do they have a 105 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: sense of humor? Yeah, like like, hey, where did I 106 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: put my hat? I guess I left it on the 107 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: mantle and it's on their head because that's called a mantle. 108 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: That good that I feel like, that's a dad that's 109 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: a dad joke in cephalopod. Well, it's like eight times 110 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: funnier than human jokes exactly. And that's the right way 111 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: to think about it, to wonder whether we are the 112 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: only species capable of having these thoughts, and so it's 113 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: sort of amazing and incredible that we are here wondering it, 114 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: or if it's inevitable, if whoever had evolved on this 115 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: planet would have those kinds of thoughts and find themselves special, 116 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: like each one of us are special and unique and improbable. 117 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: You know, the combination of a sperm and egg it 118 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: just the right moment to develop you and it here 119 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: you are asking why am I here? If some other 120 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: sperm it fertilized that egg, then that person would be 121 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: asking why are you here, but we can push this 122 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: even further, not just the development of you or humanity 123 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: or life, we can also wonder about the universe itself. What, Yeah, 124 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: it seems like the universe is hospitable to life. You know, 125 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: so many things had to go right in the very 126 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: beginning of the universe, so many constants of nature and 127 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: needed to be set just the right way to make 128 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: life possible in this universe. Sort of makes you wonder. Yeah. 129 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: You know, there's this quote I believe it was Douglas Adams, 130 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: where a little puddle of water will always think smugly 131 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: to itself, Wow, this hole was made perfectly for me. 132 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: And that's how sometimes I feel about the universe, like, Wow, 133 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: the universe was made perfectly to sustain life. Are we 134 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: sort of a puddle fitting into this perfectly shaped hole 135 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: for us? Or was the whole made for us exactly? 136 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: And it's a deep question in physics because when we 137 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: look at the universe, we don't just want to understand 138 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: how it works, like what are the mechanisms of it? 139 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: We want to understand why the universe is the way 140 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: that it is. Could it have been different? And we 141 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: are just lucky to be in a universe that supports 142 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: life or are there reasons that it has to be 143 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: this way that no other universe is sort of logically consistent. 144 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: And what does it mean for there to be a 145 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: universe without someone to view it, like it doesn't have 146 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: to be a human, but something that can observe the universe, Like, 147 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: without that thing that is observing, it feels like the 148 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: universe's existence almost doesn't even matter in a way, if 149 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: a universe exists in the forest by itself doesn't even exist. Well, 150 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: that's a great question. But we think that the universe 151 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: existed before there was any humans in it, probably before 152 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: there was any alien life in it. You know, there 153 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: was probably nothing alive and observe in the Big Bang. 154 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: But we do think that it happened right right, But 155 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: it happened, and that past of it happening is based 156 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: on our observations now. So it's just it's a hard thing. 157 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: And maybe this is extremely egocentric of me, but it's 158 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine there being a universe just 159 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: hamming along with no consciousness within it to perceive it. Yeah, 160 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: on one hand, that sounds kind of sad. On the 161 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: other hand, it's probably less sad because there's no like 162 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: mobi depressed people in it wondering about what their point 163 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: of the universe is. Right, it just sort of is. 164 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: It's like the most zen universe possible without any Zen 165 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: philosophers in it. But this is a deep question in 166 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: physics and in philosophy, and people have wondered about whether 167 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: we can conclude anything about our universe, whether being alive 168 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: and intelligent and observers in our universe means something, or 169 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: whether we're just lucky, or whether there's a deeper explo 170 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: nation to all of it. And today on the podcast, 171 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: we're going to dive deep into one particular idea that 172 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: tries to explain all of it. It's called the anthropic principle. 173 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: So on the podcast today we'll be answering the question 174 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: what is the anthropic principle? So are you familiar with 175 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: this explanation for the meaning of life, the universe and everything, Katie, 176 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: I am not, But it sounds like something I could 177 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: guess if I might dare, and I know our listeners 178 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: are going to guess as well. But it sounds like 179 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: it has something to do with human beings sort of 180 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: being very full of ourselves. It sounds like the hubristic principle. 181 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: Huh yeah, yeah, the me, Me Me principle. Well, it's 182 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: funny you say that it is sort of about placing 183 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: humans at the center of everything. On the other hand, 184 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: we do sort of feel like the center of our 185 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: own universes. Right, as you say, we are observing the 186 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: universe from our perspective. We're not observing it from like weird, squishy, 187 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: octopy intelligent beings and alpha centauri. Right, we can't observe 188 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: it from any other position other than inside our own skulls, 189 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: So we are limited to that perspective. Yeah, the only 190 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: perceivable universe that exists is the interaction of our neurons 191 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: inside our brains. Like, that's what it is. It's like 192 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: whenever you try to take a look at anything in 193 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: the universe that is a result of chemical reactions inside 194 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: a pile of meat, inside a dome of bone. And 195 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: there is a limit to what we can observe in 196 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: the universe, and therefore the questions we can ask. Sometimes 197 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: in the podcast we talk about things that you cannot observe, 198 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: you know, like predictions of the multiverse, other universes you 199 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: could never interact with, and whether that's really a scientific question, 200 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: because if you cannot observe it, if you cannot prove exists, 201 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: how do you know that it's real? And so in 202 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: that sense, we are definitely limited to what filters through 203 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: our few senses into our little meat computer and gives 204 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: us the experience of it. So, as you said, I 205 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: did go out and ask some of our listeners to 206 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: volunteer to answer a question without any preparation at all, 207 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: and I'm, as usual, eternally grateful to those of you 208 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: who volunteered to play this fun game. If you would 209 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: like to give answers to random physics questions without the 210 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: chance to prepare and hear your speculations on the podcast, 211 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: please don't be shy. Send me an email to questions 212 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: at Daniel and Jorge dot com. It's fun, it's easy, 213 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: it's low stress. So think to yourself, do you know 214 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: what the anthropic principle is? Here's what our listeners had 215 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: to say. Anthropic principles seems like something to do with 216 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: human beings and the and actually the anthropology as we 217 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: know it, So sort of like having the consciousness of 218 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: what we feel. I believe that is that we see 219 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: everything as a reflection of ourselves. So they want to 220 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: think of aliens. They have two arms, two legs, two eyes. 221 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: They're symmetric, and that's because that's the way we are. 222 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: So when we look at different things in the galaxy, 223 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: we are looking for things that look like what we 224 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: think life should be, in other words, another Earth like planet, 225 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: and are kind of dismissive of alternatives because if that's 226 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: the way we are, that's the way it must be. 227 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: Anthropic principle. Is it related to anthropomorphisms somehow? I don't know. 228 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: I feel like the anthropic principle kind of relates to 229 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: all the numbers that seem to crop up time and 230 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: time again when we're studying the universe, like the value 231 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: of pie or the speed of light or the plank length, 232 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: like they seem arbitrary but also so deeply ingrained in 233 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: the universe. It's kind of like, is it a totally 234 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: random like kind of roll of the dice that we 235 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: happen to have these values, or are they saying something 236 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: intrinsic about the nature of the universe and that we 237 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: couldn't have a universe without these numbers exactly as they are. 238 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: The entropic principle, it's basically the universe was made for intelligence, 239 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: being like us to be seen by soul. The universe 240 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: made us to look at it, if I remember right, 241 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: which I probably don't. The anthropic principle has to do 242 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: with how we describe the universe in terms that makes 243 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: sense to us, and we tend to assume that everything 244 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: works the way that our intuition says it would. Tricky, 245 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: tricky chick. I have no idea, so I'm just gonna 246 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: say I'm just gonna leave this one as a shrug. 247 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: I liked the guess about it may be being related 248 00:14:54,480 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: to anthropomorphism because this touches my little biology heart where 249 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: this is a big problem in biology, where we when 250 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: we see animal behaviors, we try to reframe it, even subconsciously, 251 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: even without intending to. We reframe it in terms of 252 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: human emotions and human behavior. So it's a constant thing 253 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: we have to struggle against. And with physics, I imagine 254 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: it's also a huge problem because you don't even have 255 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: a competing consciousness. Uh well, I guess I can't say 256 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: that for sure, but we're very limited in our observation 257 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: of the universe in terms of it has to be 258 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: something we can fit inside our little human brains. That's right. 259 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: And I hear people anthropomorphizing physics. Sometimes they talk about 260 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: particles and they're like, the electron it doesn't want to 261 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: go hang out with other electrons because it's a fermion, 262 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, where protons don't like to be together. And 263 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, they don't like or dislike anything. They don't 264 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: feel anything unless you subscribe to max text marks idea 265 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: of computronium. How the whole universe is somehow self aware. 266 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: None of these electrons are making decisions, They have no 267 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: free will. But it's just sort of the way that 268 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: we think, right, we take our choices and our frame 269 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: of reference and our ideas and we project them to 270 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: the whole universe. And I don't mean that critically. That's 271 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: basically what physics is, right. We are trying to build 272 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: a model of the universe inside our head to understand 273 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: our experiences. So yeah, we got to put ourselves in 274 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: it also, and we've got to use the language that 275 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: exists in our head to explain it to ourselves. That's 276 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: why we talk about particles, sometimes as tiny little balls 277 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: of matter and sometimes as waves of stuff, because that's 278 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: the language that we have, and what else can you do? Man? Yeah, 279 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean, how can you think as not a human? 280 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: It's impossible not to think like a human because every 281 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: human that is thinking is a human. So it's literally 282 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: impossible until we've figured out some way to avatar our 283 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: brains inside of a galactic squid, like we have to 284 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: think as humans, and so everything we think about we're 285 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: going to think about in terms of, you know, of 286 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: our kind of human experience, which is why when there 287 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: are minds that work on these big problems, sometimes you 288 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: have someone who contributes greatly to science by thinking about 289 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: things in a different way than people have thought about 290 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: things before. But even then, even you know, the outliers 291 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: who think about things in different way, they're still thinking 292 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: with their human meat brains. So, you know, we we 293 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: can't think like a solar system because that doesn't make sense. 294 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: Our brains are not solar systems. Our brains are brains 295 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: until we meet those galactic squids and we get to 296 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: talk science with them and we learn how differently they 297 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: view the universe. Although you know, I worry that when 298 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: we do meet the aliens either, they will be so 299 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: alien that we can't talk to them, which means that 300 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: that fascinatingly useful, incredibly different perspective will be lost on us, 301 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: or they'll be so similar to us that we can 302 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: talk to them and they'll have nothing really to add 303 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: to the conversation because they'll basically just be other squishy humans. 304 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 1: I think they're probably gonna shove one of their space 305 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: tentacles up our noses and plug it directly into our 306 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: brains and just kind of create a new sort of 307 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: like duo brain for us. That's my theory. Well, it'll 308 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: be interesting when we meet those galactic squids if they 309 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: are also asking the questions that we are asking, if 310 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: they are looking around at the universe and wondering why 311 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: is it the way that it is? You know, you 312 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: hear people in theology sometimes making the argument like if 313 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: you find a watch in a desert, then that's evidence of, 314 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of design. You would never conclude 315 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: that the watch assembled itself randomly. I think, you know, 316 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: that's cute and it's clever. But a better question is 317 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of like, if you find a watch in a 318 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: pile of watch parts that's like almost infinitely big and 319 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: jiggling around for a long time, would you be surprised 320 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: to have found sort of a watch eventually self assembled 321 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: in a big soup of watch parts, and then to 322 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: bring it home for today's episode. You know what, if 323 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: you are that watch, you know you have discovered yourself 324 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: made out of these watch parts and a big soup 325 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: made out of these watch parts and a big soup 326 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: of similar bits. Should you be surprised to find yourself 327 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: existing and self aware, surrounded by all the things necessary 328 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: to make you well? You know, I don't have the 329 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: answer to that question, Daniel, But you know what you 330 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: season watch soup with right? No, I don't tell me 331 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: you season it with time. I can't believe I just 332 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: walked right into that one. So, Daniel, this anthropic principle, 333 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: right like, I feel like I'm starting to get a 334 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: sense of the direction we're going. But what is it 335 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: really like? What? What is this principle as it's defined 336 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: in physics? So this is an attempt to try to 337 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: answer the question of why we seem to be lucky 338 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: to be here, why the universe seems to be sort 339 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: of like fine tuned for life and maybe even for 340 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: intelligent life. And the answer that it offers is a 341 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: little bit controversial and somehow unsatisfying. It's an argument that 342 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: sometimes coincidences don't need explanations, that you are biased in 343 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: the way that you look at the universe because you exist, 344 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: and so it might just be that the reason you're 345 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: here asking questions about why you got so lucky is 346 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: because you are the one who is here asking those questions. 347 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: You know, like the watch example, if a pile of 348 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: watch parts self assembles itself into an intelligent, self aware 349 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: of robot, and that robot asks why am I here? 350 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: Who made me? It might just be that it's only 351 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: asked that question because it's here, and if it hadn't 352 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: self assembled, it wouldn't be asking that question, And so 353 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: there is no sort of like deeper explanations, no designer 354 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: of that robot. There's no reason why the robot had 355 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: to exist. If it didn't exist, if it hadn't assembled 356 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: itself out of watch parts, there would be nobody to 357 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: ask that question. And I think, speaking of anthropomorphism in 358 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: our conversation earlier, I think this is a hard, difficult 359 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: concept for us to wrap our brains around, because human 360 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: beings are very like Our way of thinking is usually 361 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: cause and effect or motivation and effect, So we think 362 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: about things in terms of I want to do this, 363 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: so I do it, or I need something, so I 364 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: make this thing to accomplish this thing. It's this kind 365 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: of directional thinking of I put on this sweater because 366 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: I was cold, or I put some time on my 367 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: suit because it didn't taste like anything. So we have 368 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: this like type of thinking that when we look at 369 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: bigger concepts or patterns, even in evolutionary biology, will think 370 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: about things like, well, how could an I have possibly evolved? 371 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: It's too complicated. The eyeball is kind of like that 372 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: watch in the desert, right, it seems like it just 373 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: kind of self assembled. But the answer that kind of 374 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: is unsatisfying is like it evolved because it evolved. Like 375 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: it evolved because the things that evolved, the early or 376 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: versions of it, survived and they survived because they had 377 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: these benefits. And so things evolved just because they survive 378 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: and that's it, Like they survived pass on their jeans. 379 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: There's no creature that has a thinks about wanting something 380 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: and then involves into it. And so with the universe, 381 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: it seems like we have a similar problem right where 382 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, so how are we lucky or are 383 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: we here just because we're here, and then that's why 384 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: we feel lucky exactly. And physics is a drive, as 385 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: you say, to understand that cost and effect chain, to 386 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: go back to the very very beginning and find the 387 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: simplest explanation and derive everything from that. And it's worked 388 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: so far. You know. Sometimes we've looked at the universe, 389 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: we've said, we don't understand it, why is it this way? 390 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: And we've struggled to find explanations, But then we have 391 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: found them. We have figured out, like, oh, why are 392 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: there a hundred elements? Is it just that the way 393 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: it is? No, it turns out it comes from a 394 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: deeper organizing principle, comes from the way quarks fit together 395 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: and electrons link around them and build those elements. There 396 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: is an answer, but that doesn't mean that there always 397 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: will be an answer, because we are observing the universe 398 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: from a sort of biased perspective, you know. The anthropic 399 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: principle says that some things that seem like coincidences that 400 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: are needed to make observers, to make people around to 401 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: ask those questions, might not need further explanation. That the 402 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: answer might just be, hey, it's random. But when the 403 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: coincidences don't happen. They just don't make observers, So there's 404 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: nobody there to notice, nobody to ask the question. You know, 405 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: It's like if you said, why have we survived all 406 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: of these calamities? Is there somebody protecting us? If we hadn't, 407 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: we wouldn't be here asking why we survived that meteor, 408 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: why we survived all those ice ages and all those 409 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: pandemics and everything in the past. And if we get 410 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: wiped out by one in the future, nobody will be 411 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: around to sort of count that against our luckiness. So 412 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: we feel lucky because we are alive, but we only 413 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: notice we're lucky because we are alive. It's like you 414 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: never question why wasn't I born? It's always the question 415 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: why was I born? Exactly? So, you have to balance 416 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: a couple of things. On one hand, you want to 417 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: keep a skeptical mind. You want to look for explanations, 418 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: You want to dig deeper and understand the true meaning 419 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: of the universe, if there is one. On the other hand, 420 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: you also have to recognize that you are biased in 421 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: how you observe the universe, that your perspective indicates that 422 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: you are not in a random sampling of the universe. 423 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: So this is why we have science, right. We understand 424 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: that human beings are biased, so we have scientific experiments 425 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: to try to remove that bias. So why can't we 426 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: just remove that bias through some really good scientific experiments 427 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: that we run, like with the Hadron collider. Oh yeah, 428 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: it's no big deal. We can totally run those experiments. 429 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: They consist of starting the universe over again million times 430 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: and observing what happens and seeing if there are intelligent 431 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: observers in those universes. Also, I feel like I detect 432 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: some sarcasm here, But the answer is that we just 433 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: have this one universe. We have this one example, and 434 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: from this example we have to draw all of our conclusions. 435 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: That's it. We're limited to that. You know, it's sort 436 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: of like, um, you know, say that you're put on 437 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: a firing squad and there's like a thousand people shooting 438 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: at you and they all miss. What can you conclude 439 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: from that one experiment? Can you conclude, well, they're all 440 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: terrible shots, or can you conclude that they intended to miss? 441 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: Or can you just not at all estimate your chances 442 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: of survival because you're only there to answer the question 443 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: if you do survive. And so that's essentially the argument 444 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: of the anthropic principle that you can't accurately estimate the 445 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: chances of the kind of thing happening if you need 446 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: that to happen in order to be around to ask 447 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: those questions. Right, So when we're studying the universe, you know, 448 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: we can think of this universe like an individual. So 449 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: when you do a study on say, mice or something. 450 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: If you did some kind of medical research on a 451 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: single mouse and they're like, hey, this mouse is weird. 452 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: Look at how its heart works, and everyone would laugh 453 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: you out of you know, the journal, because you only 454 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: did that study on one mouse. You're like, hey, this 455 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: mouse has a tiny planet inside its stomach. It must 456 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: be that all mice have these planets inside their stomachs. 457 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: But in this case, the mouse is our universe, and 458 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: it's like, well, this universe is the only one we 459 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: can look at, and we can look at it because 460 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: the universe is such that we can be. And so 461 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: now my mind's a pressle again inside the uni mouse 462 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: with keen golden exactly, and you know, I want to 463 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: dig into how this might explain things and the questions 464 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: that it helps answer. But I also want you to 465 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: keep in mind before we get there, that there's also 466 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: another side to the anthro principle. There's a danger. The 467 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: danger is that the anthropic principle tells us that there 468 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: are no answers to our questions, there is no deeper explanation, 469 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: and it sort of discourages us from digging. And digging 470 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: is what physics is all about, is pushing hard to 471 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: try to find that answer. So it would be a 472 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: tragedy if there was a deep explanation for why the 473 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: universe is the way that it is and we didn't 474 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: find it because we gave up because we thought, I 475 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: guess it's just chance and we got lucky. But before 476 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: we get into lots of examples of how the anthropic 477 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: principle can be used, let's take a quick break. All right, 478 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: we are back and we're talking about how amazing it 479 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: is that I'm here and Gaty is here, and you 480 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 1: are here listening to us, and we hope that you 481 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: don't regret it. So we were talking about how the 482 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: anthropic principle can be potentially inangerous right and discouraging more exploration. 483 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: But for me, it's kind of it makes me want 484 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: to know even more because it seems really mysterious how 485 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: you could have a universe relying on totally random chance 486 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: leading to us being around. And it makes me wonder 487 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: what's behind these rules of the universe that allowed such incredible, 488 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: seemingly random chance and such a large scale. We just 489 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: don't know, right, And it's the kind of thing that 490 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: we wonder about. We wonder at the very core of 491 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: the universe, if some of the numbers that control the 492 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: universe were set randomly, and what mechanism sets those random numbers. 493 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: I think that's what you're getting at. And if it's 494 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: even possible to imagine other universes with different values of 495 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: like the speed of light or the charge of the 496 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: electron or the mass of the mun you know, whether 497 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: it even makes sense whether it's possible to have those 498 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: different laws of physics, or whether there's some deeper explanation 499 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: to sort of links them together and says there can 500 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: only be one value. Right. That's the thing that really 501 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: makes me go cross side, is why are physics rules 502 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: the way that they are not another way? Is that 503 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: a problem that we run into with this anthropic principle 504 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: where we obviously can't observe another universe that maybe has 505 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: different rules. So could we never really answer something like, hey, 506 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: could a universe have different rules, like are these rules arbitrary? 507 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 1: It's a tough question because if it's true that the 508 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: universe could have had lots of other values for important 509 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: confidence that control the way the universe is, you know, 510 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: the strength of gravity, the expansion rate of the universe, 511 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: the speed of light. If it's true that those universes 512 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: could have had other values, and we are just one 513 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: among a huge landscape of multiverses that have this value, 514 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: then there is nothing we could do to discover why 515 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: our universe has these values and not other values. And 516 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: it could be that many of those other universes just 517 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: don't have intelligent creatures in them because they're not hospitable 518 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: to life. On the other hand, if there is a 519 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: reason if only certain values of those parameters are allowed 520 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: because of some deeper laws of physics that we have 521 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: not yet discovered, some rules about how the universe has 522 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: to work, and you know, we are certainly not finished 523 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: understanding the deep nature of space and time and quantum mechanics. 524 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: We have a huge journey ahead of us. We've only 525 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: just begun. So you've got some job security. That's good. 526 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: In the case that there is a deeper explanation, then 527 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: we could potentially discover it. We keep doing experiments, and 528 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: that's sort of the history of physics is that we 529 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 1: have peeled back layer after layer of reality and understood 530 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: the way it is and why it has to be 531 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: that way, you know, like we understand how chemistry emerges 532 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: from particle physics. Now you can't just say, well, chemistry 533 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: of life is the chemistry of life, and we wouldn't 534 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: be here to ask about it if it wasn't this way, 535 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: So it just is. No, there are deeper explanations for biochemistry. 536 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: You can explain it in terms of the atoms and 537 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: the core works and the electrons and the other smaller particles. 538 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: You don't need to stop there and throw up your 539 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 1: hands and say, well, anthropic principle says that we wouldn't 540 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: be asking this question if it didn't exist, and therefore 541 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be asking any more questions. And that's the 542 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: danger about the anthropic principles. You never know when to 543 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: apply it. You never know when to say there is 544 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: no further explanation, it's just random. We're just lucky because 545 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: it describes what you don't know, and so to me, 546 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: it's fundamentally disappointing and scary because it encourages you to 547 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: stop asking questions. Are there cases in which it would 548 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: actually encourage you to ask questions though, where it's like 549 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: where we realized that something must be happening in the 550 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: universe for us to be able to observe the universe. Yeah, 551 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: there are some really great examples of how the anthropic 552 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: principle does help steer us towards better understandings of the 553 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: nature of space and time. And one of them has 554 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: to do with something we talked about on the podcast 555 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,959 Speaker 1: a lot, which is the rate of the expansion of 556 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: the universe. So we know, and we've known for about 557 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: a hundred years now, that the universe is not static, 558 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: it's not just a bunch of stars and galaxies hanging 559 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: in space, but that it is expanding, and in the 560 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: last twenty years we discovered that that expansion is actually accelerating, 561 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: that galaxies are moving away from us faster and faster 562 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: every year. This is something we call dark energy. So 563 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: something out there is sort of tearing the universe apart, 564 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: is pulling things apart, is creating new space between us 565 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: and other galaxies, and we think that this is controlled 566 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: by some parameter. It's called the cosmological constant. It's just 567 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: a number. You put it in Einstein's field equations for 568 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: general relativity, and if you crank it up, then it 569 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: expands the universe really really really fast, and if you 570 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: crank it down expands the universe more slowly. So it's 571 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: just sort of like a number that controls how quickly 572 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: the universe expands. But that number has to be within 573 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: a certain range for the universe as we know it 574 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: to have formed. If that number was way too high, 575 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: it would have torn the universe apart before. For example, 576 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: even Adams could have formed in the very beginning of 577 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: time before electrons and protons found each other to make hydrogen, right, 578 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: And so that sort of sets a limit, an upper 579 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: limit on the expansion read of the universe. If it 580 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: expands too quickly and too rapidly, then you just don't 581 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: get interesting structure. And so that's fascinating, it's super interesting, 582 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: and it's helpful actually because when we go to calculate 583 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: the cosmological constant, when we try to figure out, like 584 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: what is that number, how do we get what that 585 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: number is. We can try to calculate it because we 586 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: think it's related to the energy of empty space, and 587 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: we add at the energy of all the quantum fields 588 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: and empty space, and we get a number, and that 589 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: number turns out to be really big, like way too big. 590 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: Like if that number was the cosmological constant. If we 591 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: started from first principles and quantum fields and try to 592 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: calculate the energy of empty space and how much it 593 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: was expanding the universe, it would be too big by 594 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: like a factor or ten to the one hundred. The 595 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: anthropic principle there tells us that our calculation is wrong. 596 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: That if the universe was expanding at their way that 597 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: we predicted that we calculated, that it would have torn 598 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: itself apart much much earlier, and we would not be 599 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: here to ask about it. So in that sense it 600 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: is useful. So the fact that we are even here, 601 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: we know that our calculations have to end up creating 602 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: a universe that allows us to be here. Is that 603 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: kind of what you're saying exactly, Because you can't observe 604 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: a universe that doesn't lead to observers, and we are 605 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: here observing it, so it has to be hospitable. Right, 606 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: you can't argue that the laws of the universe are 607 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: such that they don't create the universe that we see, right, 608 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: It's just as really as simple as that. And so 609 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: the calculations that we do now that try to predict 610 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: the expansion of the universe their way off, and just 611 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,479 Speaker 1: knowing that the universe exists and is hospitable to life 612 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: tells us that those can't be right. And so that's 613 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, it's a weak application of 614 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: the entropic principle because you you could imagine deducing that 615 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: otherwise just saying like, well, that number is different from 616 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 1: what we observe, and so it can't be right. Couldn't 617 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: we sort of use the anthropic principle to help guide 618 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: our questions without its stopping our questions, because it's kind 619 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: of like, I mean, it reminds me of like the 620 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 1: famous descard thing of I think therefore I am where 621 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: you know, being conscious is sort of your only proof 622 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: of existing. But that doesn't mean you can't keep asking 623 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: questions about your consciousness of like, well, why do we think? 624 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: How do we think? You know? Those kinds of questions. 625 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: Could we do the same thing with anthropic principle, where 626 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: you know, okay, so we're here because we're here, but 627 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: how did we get here? And are there any deeper 628 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: mechanisms behind you know, the laws of physics of our 629 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: universe that allows us to be here. I agree with you, 630 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: and those questions are really important. The issue is that 631 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: the anthropic principle sort of suggests that there is no 632 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: deeper explanation, that the reason we're here asking these questions 633 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: is that we got lucky, and the folks that didn't 634 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: get lucky aren't here to ask those questions. So it's 635 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: sort of a way of saying, look, we don't need 636 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: to explain this weirdness. We see something strange, it seems 637 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: really unlikely, but maybe there is no deeper explanation. So 638 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: it's sort of like stops that chain of inquiry by 639 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: telling you that there is no further explanation to find. 640 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: There is no deeper level of reality that explains the 641 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: way things are that is just random, and we are 642 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: here asking that question because we're the ones who got here. 643 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: I guess thinking from since I'm still stuck in my 644 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: sort of anthropocentric or I guess even just like animal 645 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: centric point of view when I think about randomness, I think, well, 646 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: things can just be random, But then when you have 647 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: huge systems, there's usually some kind of pattern that emerges 648 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: from randomness. So I feel like, even if we determine 649 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: something is maybe in our universe that things just randomly 650 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: happen to allow life to occur, to be able to 651 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:07,280 Speaker 1: observe the universe, could there be something even bigger behind 652 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: that randomness? Does that make any sense? It does, But 653 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: I think that what you're actually talking about is not 654 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: randomness but chaos. You know, sometimes we see things emerging 655 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: from swarms of tiny, little buzzing particles, you know, for example, chemistry, right, 656 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: chemistry is like a coordinated dance of lots of quantum 657 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: particles following the laws of physics. And you don't need 658 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: to use the weak force and the strong force and 659 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: particle physics to talk about life and biochemistry because these 660 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: other rules do emerge the rules of organic chemistry. So 661 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: sort of like sense and mathematical reasoning does emerge out 662 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 1: of the crazy swarm of what does seem like an 663 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: insane amount of particles all moving together the way, for example, 664 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: like weather patterns emerge from water droplets, and I think 665 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: that's our minds. Making sense of the universe is necessarily randomness. 666 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: It's more like turning chaos into mathematical stories to say, look, 667 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: I can tame this. I can find some sort of 668 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: simple explanation for that describes the higher level effects, you know, 669 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: the way like human psychology is right. Human psychology is 670 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: not fundamental to the universe. It's not written in the 671 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: standard model. But people are predictable. You can describe how 672 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: people will buy things and sell things and talk to 673 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: each other and break up and feel in response to 674 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: certain situations. That's not a fundamental law the universe. It 675 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: just sort of emerges, and so we can describe that. 676 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: So I think that's trying to grapple with something else, 677 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: not randomness, but chaos. But I think it is important, 678 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: and it goes to our desire to tell stories about 679 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: the universe, to find these explanations. And for me, again, 680 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,439 Speaker 1: while the anthropic principle is hard to refute, it's hard 681 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: to say no, that can't be because it might be 682 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: just that we are lucky in random It's frustrating because 683 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: I always want to find that story. To me, the 684 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: story the universe is random and you just sort of 685 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: like got lucky to be is not really an interesting 686 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: story because it doesn't tell you anything deep about the universe. 687 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: And we're not talking about sort of a higher power here. 688 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: We're not saying like, well, then there is a galactic 689 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: squid pulling all the strings. But more that maybe there's 690 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: something like as we chopped the universe down to its 691 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: smallest parts, like maybe there are sets of rules that 692 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: are behind the rules that we can use to understand 693 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: our situation better, right exactly, And let me give you 694 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: an example. We look at the particles that we see 695 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: in the universe, for example, the electron, and we notice 696 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: that it has charge minus one and the proton has 697 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: charge plus one. The proton is built out of quarks, 698 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: which when you combine them together, they give you charge 699 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,879 Speaker 1: plus one. The amazing thing, though, is that in our 700 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: theory those two numbers are independent. Like if you're the 701 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: control panel of the universe, then you could set the 702 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: charge of the electron to be you know, minus one 703 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: and the charge of the proton two b plus one. 704 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: You can also set the charge the electron to be 705 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: like minus one point zero zero zero zero zero zero one. 706 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: There's no like rule in physics that says you can't. 707 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: Those are two independent numbers, are like different knobs on 708 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 1: the control panel of the universe. Now, if you don't 709 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: set them to be exactly opposite each other, then you 710 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: don't get neutral atoms, you don't get chemistry, you don't 711 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: get life, you don't get ice cream, you don't get podcasts. 712 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: And so you can ask like, well, is that a coincidence? 713 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: Is it random? Are there an infinite landscape of universes 714 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: out there where those things don't balance, and you don't 715 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: get neutral atoms and you don't get chemistry, and we're 716 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: just lucky and we're here asking those questions about it 717 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: because we're in the one where they balance. Or is 718 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: there a deeper explanation? Is there a reason why these 719 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: things are exactly opposite? For example, maybe they're built out 720 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: of even smaller things that we haven't yet discovered, And 721 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: the reason the electron has the opposite charge as the 722 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: proton is because they come from the same fundamental units, 723 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: just arranged in a different way. They're a fundamental string, 724 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: vibrate in slightly different frequency or something. Right, maybe they 725 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: are linked in a way that we just have not 726 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: yet discovered. So the entropic principle says, don't worry about it. 727 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: It's probably just random. But my visits brain says, no, 728 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: it's a screaming clue that there's something going on, something 729 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: deeper we haven't yet discovered. Well, right, because you can 730 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: have chaos on one level that leads to something more 731 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: organized on another level. It's usually it goes up, right, Like, 732 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: the smaller the particle, the more chaotic it is. And 733 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: then when you have a bunch of those small units 734 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: in a large amount, they lead to something more organized, 735 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: more of a pattern. Could you ever have something going 736 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: in the opposite direction where you break a part of 737 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 1: the smallest particle you have and you discover something behind 738 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: it that actually becomes more organized, or is somehow explaining 739 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: some of the chaos of that larger particle that it creates. Well, 740 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: that's a deep, deep question super them. You know, it 741 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: is fascinating that we notice that organization sort of emerges 742 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: at larger scales, right Like as you say, a baseball has, 743 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: you know, tend to the thirty buzzing quantum particles in 744 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: it that are impossible to predict, and yet I can 745 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: throw a baseball across the room and predict its trajectory 746 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: pretty accurately without knowing anything about those little particles. Right, 747 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: that's the sort of organization principle that you mean. And 748 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: the truth is, we don't really know why that is 749 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: in our universe. Why it's possible to tell these cute, 750 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: simple mathematical stories about big things that involve intractable mathematical 751 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: stories about the thousands and billions and zillions of tiny 752 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: things inside them, we don't really know. It's called emergent phenomena, 753 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: and it seems to be sort of a miracle in 754 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: our universe that it's possible, you know, that you can 755 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: describe the path of a baseball without understanding quantum gravity. 756 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: We're actually having a whole other podcast episode planned just 757 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: on that topic to try to understand why stories to 758 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: to emerge in layers from the chaos of the universe, 759 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,319 Speaker 1: not something we currently really understand. I don't want to 760 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: spoil the episode, but I will make a prediction. I 761 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: think it is little tiny gnomes, little teeny tiny gnomes. Well, 762 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,760 Speaker 1: let's investigate Katie's theory of the gnomic universe, but first 763 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: let's take another break. All right, we're back, and we're 764 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: talking about why the universe is the way that it 765 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: is and could have been other ways. And in those 766 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: other universes, are there better flavors of ice cream available? 767 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: Are we missing out? Yeah? I went on Amazon and 768 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: ordered a really powerful magnifying glass to see if I 769 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: could try to find the tiny gnomes inside the electrons. 770 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: But so we cannot observe other universes, right, because we're 771 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: sort of like fish in a bowl. We're stuck in ours. 772 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: But can we think about other universes? Like can we 773 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: sort of project sort of what we see in this 774 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: universe and think about other possibilities? We absolutely can, and 775 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 1: that's something that we do all the time as we 776 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 1: sort of unrolled the story of our universe, as we 777 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: ask could it have been different at various points? Could 778 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: other things have happened? And that's really the deep question 779 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: we're trying to ask. And you know, we have made 780 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: a lot of progress in understanding the universe. We have 781 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: these basic fundamental particles, and we've even gone deeper. There 782 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,879 Speaker 1: are people, for example, who have developed string theory, which 783 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,399 Speaker 1: is this idea of where all these particles come from. 784 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: They say, maybe all the particles we see are actually 785 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: these tiny, vibrating one dimensional strings. And when they vibrate 786 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: in one way, they look like an electron. When they 787 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: vibrate in another way, they look like a muan. And 788 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,840 Speaker 1: this comes out of a beautiful mathematical structure. And everybody 789 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: I know who does string theory is constantly calling it beautiful, 790 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: like there's elegance to it, like there's something like when 791 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: you see it, it's like wow, you're like looking at 792 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: a work of art. It just sort of like clicks 793 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: together for them to have a deep appreciation for it. 794 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: Problem with string theory is that when they put it together, 795 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 1: they realize there are some choices to make, Like when 796 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: you put string theory together, you can put it together 797 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: this way, and you can put it together that way, 798 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of different choices to make. And 799 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: they sat down to calculate, like how many different string 800 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: theories are there? You know, it's not like it's just 801 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: there's only one way to put it together. And so 802 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: they came up with a number of different string theories 803 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: that you could assemble. And the number is ten to 804 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: the five hundred. So each of these represents like a 805 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: different possible theory of a universe. I tried counting that 806 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: on my fingers, but I think I ran out of fingers. 807 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: It's a mind bogglingly big number. Like the number of 808 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 1: years the universe has existed is only like ten to 809 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: the twelve, The number of atoms in a mold is 810 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: like ten to the twenty six. The number of particles 811 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: in the U universes tend to be eight. We're talking 812 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: about a number much, much, much bigger than any of 813 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: those numbers, definitely more than the number of jelly beans 814 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: that I got in this jar, don't get. And you 815 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: might ask yourself, well, why is that important? Why is 816 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: that relevant? Well, it's sort of like different configurations of 817 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: the string landscape, and it sort of seems like when 818 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 1: the universe started string theories correct, we rolled a big 819 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,800 Speaker 1: die and that die has ten to the five hundred 820 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: sides to it, and we just happen to end up 821 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: on this one. And so it makes people wonder like, well, geez, 822 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: that seems pretty unlikely. Is there a reason why the 823 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: universe ended up on this one spot out of ten 824 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: to the five hundred? You know? Is there a deeper 825 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,720 Speaker 1: explanation like that's the only one that could work somehow? 826 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: Is there some other rule we haven't yet figured out 827 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: or are there ten to the five hundred universes out there, 828 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: and we are just in this one. So to answer 829 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: your question, like, this is the kind of thing that 830 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: helps us think about maybe are there other you universes 831 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,320 Speaker 1: out there that have different values? If we can't figure 832 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: out a reason why the universe chooses one value and 833 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: now another, makes us wonder if there are other universes 834 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: out there where those other values have been chosen. So 835 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: when we talk about other universes being out there, I 836 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,919 Speaker 1: think that can be hard to visualize, because one way 837 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: for me to think about it is so this universe 838 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 1: plays out over billions of years and then at some 839 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: point spreads apart completely and then somehow dies and then 840 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 1: restarts into a new universe. Or the other way I 841 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: think about it is like we're sort of in a 842 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: bubble amongst a bunch of bubbles of other universes. But 843 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 1: I realize this is probably not accurate ways of thinking 844 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 1: about it. How does someone like me try to conceive 845 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: of there being multiple universes? It's difficult to sort of 846 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: hold this in your mind. The easiest way is the 847 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: second description that you gave, which is to imagine that 848 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: there other universes sort of really far out there, so 849 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 1: far away we could probably never travel to them, but 850 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,399 Speaker 1: sort of in the same space where we live. There's 851 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: one view of how the universe started that it began 852 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: as infinite, and it started with a sort of like 853 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: primeval universe material, which is even before like the kind 854 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,360 Speaker 1: of stuff that makes up our universes, and then little 855 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: bubble universe is sort of popped out of that and 856 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,520 Speaker 1: in one spot you've got our universe, another spot you've 857 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: got another universe. Another spot you've got another universe, and 858 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: that maybe if the laws of physics do have some 859 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: randomness to them, that maybe those different bubbles like got 860 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 1: different roles of the die and ended up with different 861 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, effective laws of physics that an electron is 862 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: more massive over here and less massive over there. And 863 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, stretchy tella has more chocolate in it in 864 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,800 Speaker 1: that universe and less chocolate in it in this universe. 865 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: Coors aps exactly, and so that's one way to imagine 866 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,400 Speaker 1: it that you can sort of fit them in the 867 00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: same space as our universe. That's a bit tricky because 868 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: it requires you to have some moment in the universe 869 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,800 Speaker 1: when like these decisions happen, when those big bangs begin 870 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: that those numbers are somehow set into stone. That's so 871 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,320 Speaker 1: strange to me. I mean, first of all, it seems 872 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,240 Speaker 1: like the beginning of life or the beginning of the universe. 873 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: The beginnings of things are always sort of a soup 874 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,920 Speaker 1: for some reason. And the second thing, I mean, so 875 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: you how much could we because you're saying there's ten 876 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,799 Speaker 1: to the five potential possible multiverses, right, how much could 877 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:38,320 Speaker 1: we tweak the rules of our universe and like create 878 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,360 Speaker 1: a universe that could potentially support some form of life 879 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,319 Speaker 1: or consciousness or is is like it's something like in 880 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: computer programming, where you just move one decimal point, you 881 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 1: ruin the whole thing. It's a super awesome question. And 882 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: people have looked at these numbers and tried to think 883 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,879 Speaker 1: about that exact thing. And you know, it's hard when 884 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: you start from the ten to the five hundred string 885 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 1: theory landscapes because we don't really know how to do 886 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 1: string theory yet. We just sort of like have discovered 887 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 1: the framework and we see its beauty and we seems cool, 888 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,400 Speaker 1: but we don't really know how to go from string 889 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: theory to like predicting a universe. So we start from 890 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: another level, we say, well, let's look at the standard model. 891 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: Let's look at the particles we know and the numbers 892 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: that seem to control the universe as we see it, 893 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 1: as we talked about earlier, like the cosmological constant that 894 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 1: controls the expansion of the universe, or also like the 895 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: strength of gravity, or the strength of the various forces, 896 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,839 Speaker 1: or the mass the electron. These are things we don't 897 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,320 Speaker 1: have explanations for, and we can wonder about, as you say, 898 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,440 Speaker 1: if the universe would be really different inhospitable to life 899 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,960 Speaker 1: if they were changed. And how do we discover these 900 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: constants in the first place, right, Because we don't look 901 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: up at the sky, and there's not a constellation that 902 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: tells us, you know, what the gravitational constant is, So 903 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,360 Speaker 1: we discover these through some other means. Yeah, well, actually 904 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: we do discover them by looking at motions of things 905 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,839 Speaker 1: in the sky, or by caning at chemistry and understanding 906 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,759 Speaker 1: the strength of the electromagnetic force. This is the product of, 907 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, thousands of years of investigation is assembling these 908 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,320 Speaker 1: explanations of the universe, boiling down our ideas into the 909 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: simplest equations possible, and then noticing in those equations that 910 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: there are these numbers, and we don't have an explanation 911 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 1: for why these numbers are what they are. Why is 912 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,080 Speaker 1: the speed of light what it is and not twice 913 00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,799 Speaker 1: what it is or a quarter of what it is. 914 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: Now we have noticed that if you change some of 915 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: these numbers, the universe seems suddenly very inhospitable to life. 916 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,040 Speaker 1: You know, if you make, for example, the electron much heavier, 917 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,839 Speaker 1: then you don't get atoms in the same way. Right, 918 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 1: you don't get chemistry the same way, because chemistry is 919 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,319 Speaker 1: dependent a lot on the ratio of the masses of 920 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,920 Speaker 1: the electrons to the nuclei. For the electrons to do 921 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 1: all the things they do that let chemistry happen, you know, 922 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: to interact with other nuclei and have their various atomic levels. 923 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,840 Speaker 1: Things suddenly shift and you can't really get chemistry the 924 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 1: way we expected in life, the way we know it now. 925 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 1: Of Course, the really hard question is doesn't lead to 926 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,120 Speaker 1: other interesting forms of life as we don't know it. Certainly, 927 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,440 Speaker 1: it's true that if you tweak these parameters, you don't 928 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,719 Speaker 1: get our universe and it might not be hospitable to 929 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,879 Speaker 1: our life. But what it's really hard to do. As 930 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: you said earlier, is imagine that there might be other interesting, 931 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: complex phenomena that emerge in that universe that are so 932 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: different from ours that it's impossible to even imagine. And 933 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,880 Speaker 1: maybe those folks wonder, you know, like, are we in 934 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: the best universe with the best ice cream? That's really difficult. 935 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 1: So we've got our universe, and we've put it in 936 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,840 Speaker 1: the Character Creator, and we've got all of these sliders 937 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,920 Speaker 1: where we can change these aspects about the universe. How 938 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,400 Speaker 1: messed up can we make our universe? Like, if we 939 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: start playing around with these sliders, what is the extent 940 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:51,359 Speaker 1: to which we can create something completely different from our universe? Well, 941 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: if you have your fingers on those sliders, please lift 942 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: them up very gently and step away, because our universe 943 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,960 Speaker 1: is very sensitive to those values. Like if you change 944 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,920 Speaker 1: the massive electron even a tiny little bit, all of 945 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,320 Speaker 1: chemistry changes. If you make gravity even a little bit weaker, 946 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,480 Speaker 1: then you don't get things like stars and planets. Right, 947 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,000 Speaker 1: If you make gravity a little bit stronger, then you 948 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,080 Speaker 1: get a lot more black holes, and you get stars 949 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 1: that are formed, but they're much smaller and they're colder. 950 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: They don't haven't had a chance to accumulate as much 951 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,839 Speaker 1: stuff before they collapse, and so you don't get life 952 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,719 Speaker 1: as you know it. If you tweak the value of 953 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: the strong force, then you change how fusion operates at 954 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,160 Speaker 1: the heart of stars, and you might not get like nucleosynthesis. 955 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,239 Speaker 1: You might not burn and fuse and create things like 956 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 1: carbon and oxygen that are essential for life. And so 957 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,560 Speaker 1: really it seems quite sensitive. We know that if you 958 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,560 Speaker 1: change the values these parameters even a tiny little bit. 959 00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 1: We're talking about fractions of fractions of a percent, the 960 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: universe is very very different. We're kind of a Souffle universe, right, 961 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:59,160 Speaker 1: We are very very particular, very hard to ba and 962 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,680 Speaker 1: so the inanthropical and so what looks at this and says, well, 963 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 1: maybe there's just lots of universes and this is the 964 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: one that we are in, and that's why we are 965 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: asking this question. We have survived this firing squad, but 966 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 1: we can't estimate the chances of surviving a firing squad 967 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,839 Speaker 1: because we're the only ones who have survived it, and 968 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,440 Speaker 1: that's all we can do. And to me, that's frustrating 969 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,400 Speaker 1: and I don't like that at all. I like thinking 970 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,760 Speaker 1: there is an explanation that in a hundred years physicists 971 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,280 Speaker 1: will have a better theory of the universe, and instead 972 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,319 Speaker 1: of having twenty six numbers, we don't have explanations for 973 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,279 Speaker 1: maybe we'll only have five numbers, and from those five 974 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,200 Speaker 1: numbers we can predict the twenty six right there, controlled 975 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,640 Speaker 1: by five deeper numbers. And in five hundred years, maybe 976 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:38,960 Speaker 1: we'll have a theory of physics with just one number 977 00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,320 Speaker 1: in it or zero numbers. Right, we'll discover the logical 978 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 1: principle that is the only way universe could be put together, 979 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,399 Speaker 1: And so it has to be this way. That's sort 980 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,560 Speaker 1: of my deep fantasy scientifically, So if you are to 981 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,400 Speaker 1: go up to the Great Council of the anthropic Principle 982 00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,120 Speaker 1: and argue against them, what evidence do we have off 983 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 1: if anything, that we may find deeper, further explanations other 984 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:11,319 Speaker 1: than life happens. You know, that's a great question. I 985 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,959 Speaker 1: think the answer is that so far we have that's 986 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: so far when we have rejected the entropic explanation and 987 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:21,239 Speaker 1: said let's keep looking, that we have found deeper explanations, 988 00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: and we've peeled back layer upon layer of reality and 989 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,919 Speaker 1: found explanations for our current layer lying within the deeper one, 990 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 1: that the mechanisms that emerge from the smaller chaos do 991 00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,239 Speaker 1: explain the larger phenomena that we see, and so we 992 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,879 Speaker 1: should keep digging. It's like you found a huge vein 993 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 1: of gold underground. Do you keep digging and keep minding 994 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,640 Speaker 1: or do you say, well, that was probably lucky, It's 995 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,840 Speaker 1: probably going to end there. Let's just stop digging. For me, 996 00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,160 Speaker 1: I'd say keep investing and keep digging, and keep pulling 997 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,520 Speaker 1: that intellectual gold out of the ground. I mean I 998 00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,280 Speaker 1: would be sipping my lemonade and going like, yes, keep digging, 999 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,480 Speaker 1: go for it. You'd be writing a comedy play about 1000 00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 1: particle physicists trying to operate a mind to not so 1001 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 1: great effect, yeah, and be called Wow, that sure looks 1002 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,960 Speaker 1: hard by Katie Golden subtitle I need a refill on 1003 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,680 Speaker 1: my lemonade please. And So. One of the deepest questions 1004 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,840 Speaker 1: in physics, and in philosophy, and in science and in 1005 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,600 Speaker 1: the human experience is why is the universe this way 1006 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 1: and not some other way? And until we can operate 1007 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:33,319 Speaker 1: the universe simulation machine and run a million other universes 1008 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,280 Speaker 1: to see how many of them end up looking like ours, 1009 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,600 Speaker 1: with biologists sipping lemonade while physicists do the real work. 1010 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 1: We can't really answer that question, but we can look 1011 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,600 Speaker 1: at the patterns of the answers that we haven't covered, 1012 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,440 Speaker 1: and we can ask ourselves, could have been another way? 1013 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 1: Is this the only way that the universe could be organized? 1014 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,200 Speaker 1: Is there a deeper explanation waiting for us? Or have 1015 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,440 Speaker 1: we run into the bedrock, the place where the universe 1016 00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: is just random and there are no more explanations to 1017 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,800 Speaker 1: be found. But Daniel, if we run that universe simulation machine, 1018 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:11,120 Speaker 1: maybe that's what creates new universes. And what's the theory 1019 00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,200 Speaker 1: of the universe simulation machine and what explains that? See, 1020 00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,040 Speaker 1: there's an endless cycle of questions to be asked. Well, 1021 00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,040 Speaker 1: thanks Katie for joining us and asking such great questions 1022 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 1: about the nature of the universe. Thank you so much 1023 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: for having me and for answering them and refilling my limonade. 1024 00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,560 Speaker 1: And thanks to all of our listeners who supported us 1025 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,760 Speaker 1: over these years and whose questions drive this podcast and 1026 00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:38,120 Speaker 1: all of science itself. Keep thinking deeply, keep asking questions, 1027 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:48,920 Speaker 1: and keep listening. Thanks very much, Thanks for listening, and 1028 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,680 Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge explained the Universe is a 1029 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:55,160 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcast for my 1030 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,840 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1031 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,280 Speaker 1: or wherever less into your favorite hills.