Speaker 1: Multiple people said, you know what I can't get over
Speaker 1: is that I don't even ask questions like these with
Speaker 1: the people already in my life, like with my friends
Speaker 1: and family, my own age. Sometimes there's this limiting belief
Speaker 1: where we think we can't go deeper, when in fact
Speaker 1: you can, and a lot of times people are more
Speaker 1: receptive to that than you think.
Speaker 2: Today we have Cassily Kilheim on the show. Cassily is
Speaker 2: a leading expert in social health, Drawing from over a
Speaker 2: decade of studying, sharing, and applying the science of human connection.
Speaker 2: She elevates the idea of social health as a writer
Speaker 2: and speaker, and helps individuals, communities, and organizations become more
Speaker 2: socially healthy. Cassily leads the nonprofit Social Health Labs, whose
Speaker 2: programs have connected and inspired thousands of people across the
Speaker 2: US and globe since launching in twenty twenty. In this episode,
Speaker 2: we discussed Cassily's latest book, The Art and Science of Connection,
Speaker 2: Why Social Health is the Missing key to living longer, healthier,
Speaker 2: and happier. Cassily argues that physical and mental health are
Speaker 2: incomplete without social health and makes a persuasive case for
Speaker 2: why social health should be prioritized a lot more in
Speaker 2: our society than currently is. We discuss why cultivating meaningful
Speaker 2: relationships is as vital as exercise, nutrition, and sleep, and
Speaker 2: the ways for us all to be more socially healthy.
Speaker 2: So let's get into it. I bring you Cassily Kill Them,
Speaker 2: Cassily Kill Them. Well, congratulations on your new book, and
Speaker 2: welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Scott. I'm truly honored to be
Speaker 1: talking to you today.
Speaker 2: It's good to see you. It's great to see you.
Speaker 2: It's been many years. It's been many years.
Speaker 1: Had blue hair the last time I saw you, Carson.
Speaker 2: I'm sur I've been through many phases in the past
Speaker 2: five six years. Blue blonde. This is more my natural
Speaker 2: and the hair cover right now. It looks good.
Speaker 1: It looks good.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, thank you well. Absolutely delightful to chat
Speaker 2: with you again and about your new book, which is
Speaker 2: very important in this time that we're living in. But
Speaker 2: I gotta ask, why are you so over loneliness?
Speaker 1: That's a good good spot to start. Well, so let
Speaker 1: me start by saying I have worked on loneliness for
Speaker 1: many years, and it's truly an issue that's very important
Speaker 1: at this time in our history. Loneliness is very widespread.
Speaker 1: Many people feel disconnected. There are very worrisome trends. You know,
Speaker 1: friendship is in decline, the number of friends that people have,
Speaker 1: but also the amount of time that people spend with
Speaker 1: their friends has gone down, you know, the extent to
Speaker 1: which people belong to communities and clubs and groups that
Speaker 1: they're involved in, and just experiences of disconnection. There are
Speaker 1: studies showing that people go weeks at a time without
Speaker 1: talking to a single family member or friend, and that
Speaker 1: people don't feel like they have anyone who knows them
Speaker 1: well at.
Speaker 2: A deeper time, consider that a good week.
Speaker 1: Well, so we'll get into that about what's the right Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so we'll come back to that for sure. But having
Speaker 1: the option to be able to talk to friends and
Speaker 1: family you want to is really vital. And so loneliness
Speaker 1: is a huge problem, and last year the US Surgeon
Speaker 1: General declared it as a public health priority here in
Speaker 1: the US. The World Health Organization launched a Commission on
Speaker 1: Social Connection, recognizing that loneliness is a public health issue.
Speaker 1: So it's a topic I really care about and I've
Speaker 1: worked on it for years. I give talks, I run
Speaker 1: programs related to addressing loneliness. I advise organizations in the space,
Speaker 1: and it's something I can care about and will continue
Speaker 1: to care about. The reason I say I'm over loneliness
Speaker 1: in the book, which is a bit provocative, is because
Speaker 1: I think it's time to shift the conversation and broaden
Speaker 1: the lens of how we're really thinking about how helping
Speaker 1: people live more meaningfully connected lives. For one thing, a
Speaker 1: lot of people really underestimate the importance of our relationships
Speaker 1: for our health. So there are studies showing that people
Speaker 1: don't even recognize that relational factors, you know, whether or
Speaker 1: not we feel connected, that that predicts our longevity. So
Speaker 1: there's this sense that not enough people realize this is
Speaker 1: about health. There's also the fact that loneliness is just
Speaker 1: one signal of what I refer to as social health. Right, So,
Speaker 1: in the same way with physical health, if you're not obese,
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you're necessarily physically healthy. There are
Speaker 1: other metrics that matter than just your weight, Right. You
Speaker 1: also need to get quality sleep and eat healthy foods. Right.
Speaker 1: If you're skinny, but you're not eating quality foods that
Speaker 1: are nutritious and fuel you, that's not being fully physically healthy.
Speaker 1: So a lot of people who don't necessarily identify as
Speaker 1: feeling lonely, still there are opportunities for them to strengthen
Speaker 1: their social muscles and connect in other meaningful ways. Maybe you,
Speaker 1: you know, feel connected to friends and family, but you
Speaker 1: don't feel like you belong in the workplace, or you
Speaker 1: don't have a sense of community locally where you live,
Speaker 1: So that there are these other ways that we can
Speaker 1: help improve people's social health. And so I'm very passionate
Speaker 1: about shifting the conversation and helping us look at the
Speaker 1: broader picture that loneliness is one piece of social health,
Speaker 1: and what I mean by that is that, you know,
Speaker 1: our relationships determine our health as much as anything else.
Speaker 1: And so in the same way that we talk about
Speaker 1: physical and mental health, we need to talk about social health.
Speaker 1: And that lens can be really empowering and help us
Speaker 1: think about new opportunities to support people if we move
Speaker 1: away from just focusing on the negative toward towards some
Speaker 1: of the positive.
Speaker 2: I'm very positive psychology of you, it's very.
Speaker 1: Positive psychology of me. Yes. So, as you know, we've
Speaker 1: both spent time at the University of Pennsylvania, at the
Speaker 1: Positive Psychology Center, and that had a huge influence on
Speaker 1: the way that I think about this. And also, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of feedback that I get from organizations, you know,
Speaker 1: when they run surveys with their community members where their
Speaker 1: users asking how lonely they are, it creates what I
Speaker 1: hear is that it pushes people away. Right Sometimes that
Speaker 1: actually leaves people feeling worse. Whereas if we shift the
Speaker 1: conversation and focus on more of an asset lens and
Speaker 1: talk about social health or connection or community and start
Speaker 1: thinking about the strengths that we can build in people
Speaker 1: start thinking about the opportunities for connection. Perhaps they're two
Speaker 1: sides of the same coin, but as we saw with
Speaker 1: the Positive Psychology movement, it can help open up these
Speaker 1: new possibilities for how we're approaching the conversation, how we're
Speaker 1: actually supporting people to live better lives. So when I
Speaker 1: sam over loneliness, really what I mean is that I
Speaker 1: think it's time now, given how much attention there is
Speaker 1: to this issue, and also the fact that loneliness rates
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily getting better, it's time to move upstream to
Speaker 1: look at this bigger picture and think about how we
Speaker 1: can all strengthen our social health and create the conditions
Speaker 1: for social health in society.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of Corey Key's
Speaker 2: approach to mental health continuum, saying that languishing is not
Speaker 2: exactly the opposite of mental health. If you're not languishing,
Speaker 2: you're not necessarily flourishing exactly. So Yeah, No, it's very
Speaker 2: a very very very interesting approach, which is consistent with
Speaker 2: a lot of other research. Very cool. So, tell our
Speaker 2: audience a little bit about you, about your background, How
Speaker 2: did you become one of the leaders in the social
Speaker 2: health space. Yeah, introduce yourself to my audience.
Speaker 1: I love Scott's audience. Honored to do.
Speaker 2: I want to know more about you as a human ensure.
Speaker 1: So, I have a vivid memory of being on a
Speaker 1: playground as a little kid at my elementary school, observing
Speaker 1: my friends and other peers and watching how they were
Speaker 1: interacting with each other and who was left out and
Speaker 1: who was in the heart of it. And from that
Speaker 1: very very young age, I can remember just being fascinated
Speaker 1: by people and trying to understand how I fit in
Speaker 1: with other people and how others were interacting amongst themselves,
Speaker 1: and trying to make sense of the social world around me,
Speaker 1: and as I got oh older, you know, I navigated
Speaker 1: first of all, recognizing that I was an introvert and
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how do you survive and thrive
Speaker 1: as someone who needs a balance of socializing and solitude
Speaker 1: and can't always be engaging with people and actually values
Speaker 1: alone time, and trying to navigate that in school, in
Speaker 1: the workplace, life in general. I also experience some conflict
Speaker 1: within my family, within groups around me, and certainly saw
Speaker 1: a lot of that on the news and in the world,
Speaker 1: and was always very interested in how do we help
Speaker 1: people connect across divides, how do we foster more empathy
Speaker 1: and compassion and forgiveness so that we can overcome the
Speaker 1: challenges relationally that we all experience and the conflict. And
Speaker 1: then also I've moved around a lot of times. I've
Speaker 1: lived in three countries and I think twelve cities and
Speaker 1: towns now, So every single time that I moved to
Speaker 1: a new place, I had to start fresh, make new friends,
Speaker 1: build new community, while also staying connected to loved ones
Speaker 1: far away. And so in all these ways, I've kind
Speaker 1: of personally been exploring my own social health and trying
Speaker 1: to understand what it means for me to be socially
Speaker 1: healthy and how to optimize that, And so I really
Speaker 1: turned to the research and speaking of positive psychology, I
Speaker 1: mean that was a turning point for me, spending time
Speaker 1: at you pen and starting to come across the research
Speaker 1: literature on social connection and kindness and compassion and all
Speaker 1: these ideas of how we could connect more meaningfully. It
Speaker 1: was the most exciting thing to come across that research,
Speaker 1: and all of my work since then has been an
Speaker 1: expiration of how do we actually apply those research insights
Speaker 1: in our own lives? Right? How do we bridge what's
Speaker 1: in the academic research with what it means to go
Speaker 1: about our days? And so through various ways professionally, I've
Speaker 1: been trying to bridge that, and then now most recently
Speaker 1: with this book, this is really the culmination of over
Speaker 1: a decade of exploring this theme and trying to take
Speaker 1: the research insights and make them practical and also leverage
Speaker 1: from stories and experiences around us for how we can
Speaker 1: each approach our social lives so that we can of healthier.
Speaker 2: I love that. And you have a degree from Harvard, right, I.
Speaker 1: Do, yes, the Masters in Public Health. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: studied I guess I should mention that in that part.
Speaker 1: I also in twenty nineteen do the masters at the
Speaker 1: school Harvard School of Public Health focused on solutions for
Speaker 1: loneliness and how we can create a more meaningfully connected
Speaker 1: world really through the lens of public health, so thinking
Speaker 1: about not just empowering us as individuals, but also how
Speaker 1: do we create an environment where social health can more
Speaker 1: naturally arise?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: What do we need to do in policy, How do
Speaker 1: we need to design our technology, what do we need
Speaker 1: to be teaching in schools, How do we design our cities.
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time looking at the research
Speaker 1: on what in the built environment helps people foster connection.
Speaker 1: So really, through all these different lenses, how do we
Speaker 1: actually create a culture where we can be socially healthy
Speaker 1: more easily? Given that so many people are experiencing loneliness
Speaker 1: and disconnection in different ways.
Speaker 2: Right now, Absolutely, it strikes me that that one of
Speaker 2: the reasons why there's this loneliness is like I think
Speaker 2: everyone kind of feels like they're weird. They're the weird one,
Speaker 2: you know, Like they're like, where do I belong? I
Speaker 2: think there's a real belonging issue. Is that is that
Speaker 2: part of the work you kind of that you've looked
Speaker 2: into is kind of this the sense of like, where
Speaker 2: do I fit in in this in the social fabric
Speaker 2: of this universe? Yeah, I know, I know I deal
Speaker 2: with that.
Speaker 1: So I do too, absolutely, And I think you're probably
Speaker 1: right that everyone does to some extent. You know, we're
Speaker 1: feeling connected, Feeling like we belong and like we matter
Speaker 1: is so essential and core. It's a fundamental human need
Speaker 1: that we all seek for survival purposes, but also in
Speaker 1: order to thrive and feel fulfilled and happy. And we
Speaker 1: need reassurance, right, We seek we want to know that yeah,
Speaker 1: we're good. I care about you, I see you, and
Speaker 1: so I think that's an important part of it. But
Speaker 1: there's there are many factors that are contributing to the
Speaker 1: fact that people feel so disconnected. Right, That's one of them.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of factors in our modern culture. Right.
Speaker 1: Technology is one piece that comes up a lot in
Speaker 1: social media and the ways in which that's rewiring how
Speaker 1: we connect and inhibiting us in some ways and helping
Speaker 1: us in others. There's the trends, like a lot of
Speaker 1: people move around more frequently, there's higher rates of transience,
Speaker 1: there's higher rates of living alone, so not being embedded
Speaker 1: in your family or in the community that you grew
Speaker 1: up with, and going out and being independent, which I'm
Speaker 1: guilty of. Right I've moved away from I live away
Speaker 1: from family right now. I've moved for work many times
Speaker 1: rather than moving for family and for community. And so
Speaker 1: there are many different trends going on that are coalescing
Speaker 1: to mean that it's just it feels hard to connect
Speaker 1: right now and to feel like we do belong.
Speaker 2: But and yet when you said that you feel like
Speaker 2: I feel too, I felt a greater sense of connection
Speaker 2: to you. So maybe more people need to express how
Speaker 2: they feel to each other and maybe realize that they're
Speaker 2: not the only one who thinks they're weird.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that's why a lot of the efforts to
Speaker 1: destigmatize loneliness are so important, because it turns out that
Speaker 1: every single one of us feels lonely at some point
Speaker 1: in our lives. And that's a normal human experience, and
Speaker 1: it's actually a healthy human experience.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So, just like our bodies tell us when we're hungry
Speaker 1: or we're thirsty, our bodies and brains telling us that
Speaker 1: we're lonely is our bodies way of saying, hey, you
Speaker 1: need to connect, and that's a natural human signal, and
Speaker 1: being able to talk about that and open up honestly
Speaker 1: one another is important. There's also so much research, as
Speaker 1: you know, showing that vulnerability helps bring us closer together.
Speaker 1: So when I confide in you or you can fighte
Speaker 1: in me, that engenders trust, That engenders likability, right, so
Speaker 1: we're more likely to get along. So ironically talking about
Speaker 1: loneliness or other fears and social anxieties that we have
Speaker 1: can help us connect more meaningfully and actually help us
Speaker 1: overcome that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, for sure, like research shows secret sharing
Speaker 2: is a great way to bond with someone as well
Speaker 2: as gossiping, So we won't do either right now on
Speaker 2: the Psychology podcast.
Speaker 1: No gossiping, no way.
Speaker 2: Maybe over coffee, but maybe over coffee later we'll do
Speaker 2: the secret sharing gossiping. Yeah. I'd love to hear your
Speaker 2: multi dimensional conceptualization of the concept of social health because
Speaker 2: you have a very unique you have your own sort
Speaker 2: of way of conceptualizing it and the main components of it.
Speaker 2: What are the parameters of it, you know, the boundary conditions,
Speaker 2: all that good stuff.
Speaker 1: So this was a term that I came across in
Speaker 1: the research that was first defined by a scholar named
Speaker 1: Robert D. Russel back in the early nineteen seventies. And
Speaker 1: when I read this paper, it was such a light
Speaker 1: bulb moment for me because it unified a lot of
Speaker 1: the themes that I was seeing in the research. So,
Speaker 1: right now, if you dig into the data, there's social connection,
Speaker 1: there's social cohesion, social capital, social connectedness, social networks. It
Speaker 1: goes on and on, social support. There's so many different
Speaker 1: ways that we're tapping into our social lives. But what
Speaker 1: are they all adding up to, right? What is the
Speaker 1: value of all of that? All of those tie into
Speaker 1: this broader theme of social health, which is that they
Speaker 1: matter because connection is how we throw And so I
Speaker 1: think the language of social health is really powerful because
Speaker 1: one it underscores the health significance of our relationships, right,
Speaker 1: And I mentioned earlier that research shows people underestimate that,
Speaker 1: So that's really important. In the same way that the
Speaker 1: language of mental health helps us take our emotions seriously,
Speaker 1: the language of social health can help us take our
Speaker 1: relationships more seriously. And so the way I like to
Speaker 1: think about this is that if you think of your
Speaker 1: overall health and well being you as an individual person.
Speaker 1: Think of it like a Greek temple, right, and a
Speaker 1: Greek temple has different columns that are supporting the structure overall.
Speaker 1: There's a physical column, there's a mental column, there's a
Speaker 1: social column. There could be other columns like spiritual dimensions
Speaker 1: or environmental dimensions, right. But my aim is to really
Speaker 1: elevate this social pillar because what I saw when I
Speaker 1: came across that paper by Russell was that there was
Speaker 1: very little information about that, and it's social health isn't
Speaker 1: talked about in the same way that physical and mental
Speaker 1: health are a regular part of our conversations today. It's
Speaker 1: really missing from sort of the public discourse. And even
Speaker 1: on Wikipedia there's over seven million articles, not one of
Speaker 1: them is dedicated to social health.
Speaker 2: So the part of me you should create one, Well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, someone needs to, for sure. But isn't that interesting
Speaker 1: that now, all these years later, there isn't even a
Speaker 1: Wikipedia page about this, So it's really just not a term.
Speaker 1: And I see this all the time in groups I
Speaker 1: talk to or articles I write, where people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: this social health thing, that's really interesting. And so it's
Speaker 1: so important to elevate this because it's part of your
Speaker 1: overall health and well being. So if physical health is
Speaker 1: about your body and mental health is about your mind,
Speaker 1: social health is about your relationships. And by seeing these
Speaker 1: pillars as vital and supporting each other and strengthening your
Speaker 1: overall health temple, that's going to inform the actions that
Speaker 1: you take to be healthy. So, yes, you need to
Speaker 1: exercise and get a good night's sleep and maybe go
Speaker 1: to therapy or practice meditation or things like that to
Speaker 1: be physically and mentally strong. But you can't be fully
Speaker 1: healthy if you're not also cultivating close relationships and cultivating
Speaker 1: a sense of community. Those are vital health actions as well.
Speaker 1: And to thrive as humans and to be healthy and
Speaker 1: live a long time, that's an essential component.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure that there's no one size fits all approach,
Speaker 2: you know, Like one of in the media kit that
Speaker 2: was sent to me, one of the questions is what
Speaker 2: is the right amount and type of connection? I feel
Speaker 2: fulfilled and REPELP. But that can't be the right question, right,
Speaker 2: Like introverts might have a different optimal than extroverts, right, Like,
Speaker 2: how do you even go about answering such a question? Since, yeah, well.
Speaker 1: That's exactly the point is that there is no one
Speaker 1: right amount and type of connection for you. That's exactly
Speaker 1: the point. And so and in the same way that
Speaker 1: you and I might not need to eat the same
Speaker 1: number of calories in a given day, right, we each
Speaker 1: have different numbers that are right for us and our
Speaker 1: health behaviors. And so in the book, I explore these
Speaker 1: four styles.
Speaker 2: That I described as chapter is it? Oh fine, I
Speaker 2: love individual differences research. I really like that level.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, it's so important because you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of times there are different guidelines for how to be healthy,
Speaker 1: walk ten thousand steps a day, get eight hours of
Speaker 1: sleep at night, things like that, and those are helpful
Speaker 1: because they're starting points and they can kind of anchor
Speaker 1: us as we explore our own individual health needs. But
Speaker 1: there is no one right number when it comes to connection,
Speaker 1: and we can have starting points, and I do give
Speaker 1: them in the book, but ultimately it's about exploring what's
Speaker 1: meaning to you. So the four social health styles that
Speaker 1: I describe are based on the amount and type of
Speaker 1: connection that is more fulfilling for you or feels more
Speaker 1: comfortable for you. So one, the first style is called
Speaker 1: a butterfly. So this is an idea we're all kind
Speaker 1: of familiar with, right, a social butterfly. So this is
Speaker 1: someone who likes a lot of interaction and really enjoys
Speaker 1: kind of more casual connection, someone who's the life of
Speaker 1: a party, who really puts other people at ease. That's
Speaker 1: a butterfly. The second idea is, and just to build on,
Speaker 1: that's if you think about butterflies in nature, right, they're
Speaker 1: kind of fluttering around from flower to flower, pollinating and
Speaker 1: drinking nectar in return, so there's this beautiful exchange, and
Speaker 1: so that's kind of the idea of a social butterfly.
Speaker 1: The second style is a wallflower. So again a term
Speaker 1: we're sort of familiar with wallflowers in nature. They're sort
Speaker 1: of unassuming plan that grow against walls or in cracks,
Speaker 1: but they often actually have really powerful medicinal properties, and
Speaker 1: in ancient times we're used for medicine, so maybe we
Speaker 1: kind of don't give them the attention they deserve. Wallflowers,
Speaker 1: you know, in tend toward having less frequent interaction and
Speaker 1: more casual connection. That's sort of their sweet spot and
Speaker 1: what their personality more naturally gravitates toward. The third style
Speaker 1: is a firefly. So this is someone who likes, again,
Speaker 1: infrequent interaction, but deep connection. So this is me. I
Speaker 1: love long periods of alone time, but when I'm with
Speaker 1: my friends and family, I want to get to the
Speaker 1: heart of the matter and move past chitchat. That's what
Speaker 1: brings me alive, right. I love that, I love connecting
Speaker 1: with my loved ones, but also I need periods of
Speaker 1: solitude in order to recharge. So that's a firefly. And
Speaker 1: then the final fourth style is called an evergreen. So
Speaker 1: this is someone who likes a lot of interaction in
Speaker 1: a deep way. So someone who's constantly in communication with
Speaker 1: their very close friends and family and that really lights
Speaker 1: them up. Just like an evergreen in nature is a
Speaker 1: plant that's lush and green all year round, right, whereas
Speaker 1: a firefly glows brightly in synchrony with other fireflies and
Speaker 1: then retreats into the night sky and disappears. So these
Speaker 1: different concepts are meant to help align you with what
Speaker 1: is the right amount of and type of connection for
Speaker 1: you and invite people to reflect. I mean, actually, I
Speaker 1: partnered with The New York Times to do a ten
Speaker 1: question quiz that helps people figure out their social health style,
Speaker 1: which was a lot of fun so there's that's a
Speaker 1: quiz that everyone can go take and then learn more
Speaker 1: in the book.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, it'd be very interesting to
Speaker 2: see how these map onto the Big five personality traits consolutely. Then, yeah,
Speaker 2: what are some barriers that you see to being socially healthy?
Speaker 1: Sure? So one of the biggest ones is that we
Speaker 1: all feel busy, right. People are busy, caught up in
Speaker 1: our day to day in doing the work that we
Speaker 1: need to do, and in taking care of our families
Speaker 1: and just trying to make ends meet. There's a sense
Speaker 1: of modern life feeling really busy, where people just don't
Speaker 1: have the time to do the things that they want
Speaker 1: to do. That's kind of the sense the lot of
Speaker 1: us feel. And sometimes connection in our relationships can be
Speaker 1: the first thing to fall to the wayside, right, the
Speaker 1: last thing that we prioritize, because all of these other
Speaker 1: things are urgent. And I'm still guilty of this even
Speaker 1: as someone who studies this. I mean recently I realized
Speaker 1: that my husband and I hadn't seen our friends in
Speaker 1: several months, who literally live five minutes away from us.
Speaker 2: You know, I think take people for granted totally.
Speaker 1: We can take people for granted, and not stay in
Speaker 1: touch as frequently as we all want. It's very easy
Speaker 1: for that to happen, right. It's oftentimes our social health
Speaker 1: is not a priority in the way that work is.
Speaker 1: For example, we spend so much time working, which many
Speaker 1: of us love, I love I love my job, and
Speaker 1: we have to do it to pay our bills as well.
Speaker 1: But if we're not also making time to have the
Speaker 1: enriching relationships that fuel us, then you know that that's
Speaker 1: definitely one of the barriers to being socially healthy.
Speaker 2: What about antisocial people, people with antisocial personality disorder, I
Speaker 2: don't feel like they're very inclusive in your book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me more about that. How how could we
Speaker 1: from that?
Speaker 2: How? Look, I'm just I can't. That's a cheat. Like
Speaker 2: what about people that hate people?
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you say that. So on the New
Speaker 1: York Times quiz when they posted on Instagram, I saw
Speaker 1: this comment where someone said, you need to add a
Speaker 1: fifth option. That's a cicada who you know does goes
Speaker 1: retreats for thirteen years and then comes out every now
Speaker 1: and then to kind of make some noise and then yeah,
Speaker 1: it does away again. So I think that there's something
Speaker 1: to that. Maybe there's a fifth style there, not wanting
Speaker 1: to be around people at all, but we all need
Speaker 1: some amount of connection.
Speaker 2: So most most humans, for sure, they are the operations,
Speaker 2: the extreme outliers. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, although it's interesting. I don't know if you've seen
Speaker 1: the show Alone. Have you ever watched that? It's a
Speaker 1: survival show where people who are survivalists go out into
Speaker 1: nature by themselves and have to survive as long as
Speaker 1: they can alone. And I love the show because it's
Speaker 1: it's very interesting. But what's fascinating to me is that
Speaker 1: one of the top reasons people drop out and just
Speaker 1: quit the whole thing is not because they don't have
Speaker 1: the survival skills they need. It's because they start to
Speaker 1: feel lonely and they miss their family and friends, and
Speaker 1: they say, what am I doing? What's what's the point
Speaker 1: so I can win some money? No, I'd much rather
Speaker 1: I'd much rather spend the next few months with with
Speaker 1: the people I care about.
Speaker 2: So there's there doesn't even even in the extreme conditions. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: you know, it's there's certainly a fundamental human drive there.
Speaker 2: What do you think about my distinction and transcend between
Speaker 2: the need for belonging and the need for intimacy. I
Speaker 2: feel like they're too are lumped together. Sometimes they're both
Speaker 2: part of the connection drive, but they can be pulled
Speaker 2: apart in various ways. I wonder what you thought of that.
Speaker 2: You know, like, uh, it's possible to feel belonging to
Speaker 2: a group or organization but don't feel a relatedness at all,
Speaker 2: don't feel like in a sense of intimacy, you know,
Speaker 2: like like DEI programs are obsessively focused on belonging. But
Speaker 2: you know, there's more to life than just feeling like
Speaker 2: you belong there, you know, like, how much do people
Speaker 2: actually care about you as a human, as a whole human,
Speaker 2: not just one dement know you?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: And so these are just some thoughts that I've had
Speaker 2: in my own work. What do you think of that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Thank you for bringing in that nuance.
Speaker 1: I think there can be value to both, right, It
Speaker 1: helps us to feel connected if we're part of a
Speaker 1: group where we feel like we belong. But to your point,
Speaker 1: it's so important and so valuable to have at least
Speaker 1: one person in your life who really knows who you are,
Speaker 1: loves you unconditionally, the good and the bad. That you
Speaker 1: can confide in.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I Mean, the way I think about it is that,
Speaker 1: and the research supports us, is that being socially healthy
Speaker 1: means having all different diverse ties that you can lean on.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So you have those really emotionally intimate relationships, hopefully at
Speaker 1: least one, right, and frankly one is wonderful if you
Speaker 1: have one person who really gets you and you have
Speaker 1: that emotional intimacy with that's.
Speaker 2: A gift in this life.
Speaker 1: And then expanding beyond that, you have all these other
Speaker 1: kinds of ties. You have more casual friends who you
Speaker 1: enjoy sharing experiences with or hanging out with on a
Speaker 1: Friday night. You have family, You have coworkers and the
Speaker 1: ongoing interaction that you get hopefully on a day to
Speaker 1: day basis with people you collaborate with. You have the
Speaker 1: groups that you belong to and hopefully a sense of
Speaker 1: belonging in some of those.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So it's about having these diverse different ties. And so
Speaker 1: many studies, in fact, there was a new one that
Speaker 1: I just saw yesterday that I haven't had a chance
Speaker 1: to read, but again that are showing that the more
Speaker 1: diverse are ties, the better off we are in terms
Speaker 1: of our well being. But also our health outcomes. So
Speaker 1: it's really important to diversify. And just like you know,
Speaker 1: if you get all of your emotional needs from your
Speaker 1: romantic partner, well what if you're fighting with your romantic partner,
Speaker 1: where do you turn for support in that situation? We
Speaker 1: need to have different kinds of people who we can
Speaker 1: reach out to and show different parts of ourselves too.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's why cheating is prominent. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: what what you're just going in there? Yeah, it is
Speaker 2: cheating it you're so positive, you're so positive. You gotta
Speaker 2: gotta throw in some of the truth about human nature
Speaker 2: a little bit. But anyway, what individuals can do. I
Speaker 2: really want to focus on the rest of this interview
Speaker 2: on really practical things that really brilliant stuff that you
Speaker 2: have in your in your book about that the things
Speaker 2: that people can do. You have this for these four
Speaker 2: strategies to optimize social health, because you do for your
Speaker 2: social health is as like exercise, right, that's am I
Speaker 2: getting that right? Exactly? Your model that and so so
Speaker 2: you know, continuing in that metaphor like stretching, resting, tone
Speaker 2: and flexing that kind of like the rhythmic aspect of
Speaker 2: that stretching, resting, toning, and flexing. Can you kind of
Speaker 2: elaborate a little bit on those four?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yes. So the analogy here is to think about
Speaker 1: how you strengthen your physical muscles, right. So, the first
Speaker 1: strategy to strengthen your social muscles is to stretch. So
Speaker 1: if you stretch your body, it's because you want to
Speaker 1: become more flexible. You want to stretch it out. If
Speaker 1: you stretch your social muscles, this is about wanting more connection, right, So,
Speaker 1: making new friends, seeking new communities to be part of
Speaker 1: expanding your social circle. That's how you stretch your social muscles.
Speaker 1: The second strategy is to rest, So with physical exercise,
Speaker 1: it's actually really important to have rest days and rest
Speaker 1: time in between reps or in between workouts so that
Speaker 1: your body can recover right and actually integrate the exercise
Speaker 1: that you're doing. And in that same way, we can
Speaker 1: rest our social muscles and actually either connect less right,
Speaker 1: connect more with ourselves, take them alone time, or just
Speaker 1: sort of be content with the number of connections that
Speaker 1: you have and double down on those. The third strategy
Speaker 1: is to tone. So if your tone your social muscles,
Speaker 1: your physical muscles. Rather, it's really about getting stronger, right,
Speaker 1: deepening deepening your muscles. Similarly with toning your social muscles,
Speaker 1: that's about deepening your relationships, right, fostering closer more emotional
Speaker 1: intimacy to your point. And then the final strategy is
Speaker 1: to flex. So just like you flex your social muscles
Speaker 1: and you kind of show off the strong muscles you've built,
Speaker 1: you can flex your social muscles, which is really about
Speaker 1: sustaining your relationships in the long term and continually investing
Speaker 1: in them over time. So those are the four strategies,
Speaker 1: and then there are many many tips that I go
Speaker 1: into on how how we can think about doing that
Speaker 1: and what strategy is right for you at a given time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people need to buy your book, so we're
Speaker 2: not going to give it all away, but you maybe
Speaker 2: give me one social fitness exercise that I can do today.
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, So one very easy one I'll start with
Speaker 1: that is to go for connection first. So oftentimes we have,
Speaker 1: you know, we're driving in the car and you put
Speaker 1: on a podcast to listen to to, or you put
Speaker 1: on some music while you're driving in the car, or
Speaker 1: a meeting ends early and you have fifteen minutes where
Speaker 1: you're just kind of scrolling through headlines or scrolling through
Speaker 1: emails and not getting much done. The idea here is
Speaker 1: to go for connection first. So rather than immediately putting
Speaker 1: on that podcast, or rather than immediately going on social
Speaker 1: media and scrolling mindlessly text or call a friend. Right,
Speaker 1: Calling a friend while you're driving in the car is
Speaker 1: such a simple thing, and it feels so good, and
Speaker 1: it's such an easy thing that we can each do.
Speaker 1: So rather than going for that thing you normally do,
Speaker 1: go for connection first, and then if they don't answer
Speaker 1: or it doesn't work out, great, put on that podcast.
Speaker 1: But that's an easy thing that.
Speaker 2: We can all do. Yeah, I mean, how can people
Speaker 2: connect more meaningfully with others? Like I think a lot
Speaker 2: of people on the autism spectrum struggle with a meaningful connection.
Speaker 2: And I mean, do you just have any advice for
Speaker 2: people who are really struggling to get past a superficial
Speaker 2: level with people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's a wonderful question. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people feel that way, whether or not they're on
Speaker 1: the autism.
Speaker 2: Spectrum, right for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And one approach that I describe in the book
Speaker 1: is to ask better questions. It's interesting I hosted an
Speaker 1: event some years ago where we brought together fifteen older
Speaker 1: adults and fifteen millennials and gen Z and we paired
Speaker 1: them up in intergenerational pairs and guided them through a
Speaker 1: series of questions to help them just have conversation across ages.
Speaker 1: And there were very simple questions. And at the end
Speaker 1: of it, we sat around in the circle and reflected
Speaker 1: on the experience and multiple people said, you know what
Speaker 1: I can't get over is that I don't even ask
Speaker 1: questions like these with the people already in my life,
Speaker 1: like with my friends and family, my own age. Sometimes
Speaker 1: there's this limiting belief where we think we can't go deeper,
Speaker 1: when in fact you can, and a lot of times
Speaker 1: people are more receptive to that than you think. And
Speaker 1: so sometimes it's just about asking a question that invites
Speaker 1: people to go deeper. And I'd love to know if
Speaker 1: you have questions you love to ask, Scott, especially from coaching,
Speaker 1: I think you probably have some good ones, But ones
Speaker 1: I love are things like who is someone who had
Speaker 1: a really big influence on you when you were growing up? Right?
Speaker 1: Or what's a risk you took that has really paid
Speaker 1: off in your life? Or another one of my favorites,
Speaker 1: especially to start off kind of a meeting or a
Speaker 1: gathering is what's your rose, thorn, and bud right now?
Speaker 1: A rose is something positive that's going on in your life.
Speaker 1: A thorn is a challenge you're experiencing. A bud is
Speaker 1: something you're looking forward to. So like an easy way
Speaker 1: to check in, but still go beyond that surface level
Speaker 1: of what did you do this weekend? So questions like
Speaker 1: that can just invite deeper conversation, and what we see
Speaker 1: is that people generally are more receptive to that than
Speaker 1: you might think.
Speaker 2: These are some of my favorites. When did you last
Speaker 2: cry in front of another person? By yourself? What if
Speaker 2: anything is too serious to be joked about? If you
Speaker 2: were to die this evening with no opportunity to communicate
Speaker 2: with anyone, what would you most regret not having told someone?
Speaker 2: Why haven't you told them? So? Those one of my favorites.
Speaker 1: Ooh, those are good.
Speaker 2: From Alene Aaron's research on the kinds of questions that
Speaker 2: really help form connections with others.
Speaker 1: So do you use those when you're at a party
Speaker 1: or when you're having coffee with someone or the context
Speaker 1: in which you use them?
Speaker 2: No, I don't know if the very any of the
Speaker 2: iron questions and uh, out of like a psychology study,
Speaker 2: but those those those are some of my favorite from
Speaker 2: that list of of like the scientifically like proven that
Speaker 2: signs backed questions to form connections. But for me, you know,
Speaker 2: it's so contextual, you know, with powerful coaching questions with clients,
Speaker 2: you know, you're when you're really in the moment with them,
Speaker 2: and you ask a lot of questions about like, you know,
Speaker 2: what's beneath that, what's beneath that? You know? What's like
Speaker 2: why you know and what? You know? What what would
Speaker 2: what would happen if you got rid of that fear?
Speaker 2: You know, that's often a really big one for people.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just even contemplating what would I what
Speaker 2: could I become? You know, you know because I do
Speaker 2: self actualization coaching, So yeah, those are those are the
Speaker 2: kinds of powerful questions. But I've always been a fan
Speaker 2: of the alien uh the Arthur Aron studies, and I
Speaker 2: do them with my class. Apparently the studies show that
Speaker 2: like they bring in strangers asking these questions and by
Speaker 2: the end they report they wanted much more likelyin chance,
Speaker 2: people report they wanted to like actually romantically date the
Speaker 2: other person. So you have to be careful with power
Speaker 2: comes responsibility with these questions.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you know it doesn't have to be so
Speaker 1: kind of explicitly ask a deeper question. It could be
Speaker 1: as simple as tell me more about that that's really
Speaker 1: interesting and just being expressing curiosity and whatever it is
Speaker 1: that someone's already talking about that deeper conversation.
Speaker 2: Social curiosity is a whole area of research.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I did the Exploration drive and the Openness to experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Scott, one of my friends and collaborator, Scott
Speaker 1: shig Yoga, has a wonderful book called Seek where he
Speaker 1: talks about curiosity and how that's a force for connection
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: I had to check out that book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you'd like it.
Speaker 2: You strike me as someone who is very open to
Speaker 2: new experiences, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, social curiosity, I
Speaker 2: think that comes from your openness.
Speaker 1: Well, and openness is a driver of connection. When you're
Speaker 1: open to new experiences and new people, who knows who
Speaker 1: you're going to meet?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And I talked earlier about how being socially healthy means
Speaker 1: having diverse different ties and that includes people of different ages,
Speaker 1: of people of different ethnicities, different beliefs, different cultures, and
Speaker 1: so when you're open to experiences and curious about other
Speaker 1: people's ways of living, that is diversifying the range of
Speaker 1: friendships that you're able to form, and so that can
Speaker 1: certainly be a powerful driver of connection.
Speaker 2: You do have the section of your book where you
Speaker 2: talk about negative, the negative toll that sometimes talking to like,
Speaker 2: I know that people use the phase toxic people now
Speaker 2: a lot. They're like, oh, that person's talking about parent time.
Speaker 2: But but there are certainly in the in the language
Speaker 2: of high quality connections research, you know, some people feels
Speaker 2: like you're in a black hole when you're talking to them.
Speaker 2: It's a phrase that Jane Duddan used in one of
Speaker 2: her papers on and I think we can all relate
Speaker 2: to that. You know, there are people. I hope you
Speaker 2: don't feel like you're in a black hole today, no podcast.
Speaker 2: Usually high quality connections are ones that are feel buoygnant, creative, spontaneous, playful,
Speaker 2: and they have certain characteristics. But what do you do
Speaker 2: in these kinds of situations where you're interacting with people
Speaker 2: that are really taking a negative toll in your social health?
Speaker 2: I thought, I thought that was a really important part
Speaker 2: of your book.
Speaker 1: It is really important not all connection is good connection.
Speaker 1: And you said earlier I'm too positive but no positive, Well, okay,
Speaker 1: that was my reading it.
Speaker 2: You're positive.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, I'm definitely optimistic, but no, not all connection
Speaker 1: is good connection. And there are people who it's not
Speaker 1: healthy to be around, and it's not healthy to sustain
Speaker 1: relationships with, and sometimes at the extreme level, that means
Speaker 1: letting go of people from your life. And I think
Speaker 1: part of being socially healthy means recognizing when a relationship
Speaker 1: is not redeemable and when it's it's too negative and
Speaker 1: taking more of a toll in the long run. Now,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of nuance here, right, because sometimes there
Speaker 1: are relationships where we just don't really get a get along.
Speaker 1: But it's fine. There are you know, it's it's a
Speaker 1: whole spectrum of how we're connecting with people. But I
Speaker 1: think recognizing when a relationship is negative too much, right,
Speaker 1: when the net is too negative, sometimes the socially healthy
Speaker 1: thing to do is to move on and let let
Speaker 1: that go and have boundaries and invest and double down
Speaker 1: in the relationships that are nourishing, respectful kind. That's so important.
Speaker 2: I completely agree. I completely agree. I'm really glad you
Speaker 2: brought that up. And I think that's that's a social
Speaker 2: ill to be able to kind of be aware, Like
Speaker 2: if you're a romantic relationship and you're like, no, this
Speaker 2: is really not good social health, not good for my
Speaker 2: social health, you know, being able to recognize that, or
Speaker 2: relations with family members, relations with friends. Yeah, that seems
Speaker 2: like a really important skill in the social health toolkit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know if it's something you ever master, right,
Speaker 1: but it's about it's about being aware.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: If there's one takeaway that I want everyone to have
Speaker 1: from this conversation from the book, it's that we need
Speaker 1: to be intentional about connection, just like we're intentional about
Speaker 1: what foods we eat hopefully or how much sleep we
Speaker 1: get or things like that. It's really important to pay
Speaker 1: attention to that, to reflect on how we're feeling, you know,
Speaker 1: are the interactions that we're having on a day to
Speaker 1: day basis, Do we actually feel meaningfully connected? Do we
Speaker 1: feel more lonely? Are we having those needs met? And
Speaker 1: how can we serve others too? Writ how can we
Speaker 1: enhance the lives of the people around us through connecting
Speaker 1: with them? So really being intentional, that's that's the key point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love your metaphor, you know, you can think
Speaker 2: about in the gym, you know, and and being able
Speaker 2: to kind of I like my favor My favorite one
Speaker 2: was the flexing of the social But I just texted
Speaker 2: my producer am I being too corny in the I
Speaker 2: needed to get his opinion on this. I feel like
Speaker 2: being maybe too cheeky. But anyway, I think you're wonderful.
Speaker 1: You're such a great interviewer, Scott.
Speaker 2: And yeah, thank you, Cassie. I'm feeling like I'm like,
Speaker 2: have I gone? Have I gone too far? In my
Speaker 2: She's so serious, and I feel like I'm being really weird.
Speaker 1: But okay, oh my gosh, okay, but this is like
Speaker 1: a meta learning.
Speaker 2: It is a meta learn.
Speaker 1: It is. It is because I ask these questions of
Speaker 1: myself too. Every time I do a podcast, I get
Speaker 1: off and I think, oh my god, I came across.
Speaker 2: Just well, I think you're doing great.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you're doing great.
Speaker 2: Okay, good, Okay, I'll take it.
Speaker 1: But I want to take questions. I want to make
Speaker 1: a point here, which is so there are great studies
Speaker 1: showing that. For example, when you bring two strangers together
Speaker 1: and you have them talk for a few minutes and
Speaker 1: then you take them apart and the researchers ask each
Speaker 1: individually how much did you like the other person and
Speaker 1: how much do you think.
Speaker 2: They liked you.
Speaker 1: People significantly and consistently underestimate how much the other person
Speaker 1: liked them.
Speaker 2: That's really important.
Speaker 1: It's really important, Scott, I like you more than you think,
Speaker 1: and you probably like me more than I think.
Speaker 2: It's hilarious.
Speaker 1: We should have that mindset in our interactions because it's
Speaker 1: you know, for for people like you and me who
Speaker 1: are more introspective and perhaps you know, overly analytical about
Speaker 1: how we're coming across in interactions. It's just release some
Speaker 1: of that and we can all take confidence in knowing
Speaker 1: that you're doing great at other people probably like you
Speaker 1: more than you think.
Speaker 2: I love that research finding so much. I want to
Speaker 2: just talk about, you know, just building up to society
Speaker 2: at a broader level, because it's also a really important
Speaker 2: part of your book, right, like how can we step
Speaker 2: up and like I'm really big and empowering others And
Speaker 2: it starts within you know, it starts with you. Like
Speaker 2: if everyone woke up inspired to empower others in their
Speaker 2: social health, like we would be a much better society.
Speaker 2: You know, if every individual decided they wanted to do that.
Speaker 2: So so what can people do as individuals? And then
Speaker 2: you've any policy recommendations? M.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, So this is a line I kind of
Speaker 1: straddle in the book where first and foremost it's meant
Speaker 1: to be kind of a toolkit that empowers you as
Speaker 1: an individual to take steps in your own life. But
Speaker 1: coming from public health, I'm also very passionate about how
Speaker 1: do we of those conditions. So focusing on the individual
Speaker 1: for a second, because that is where it starts. Each
Speaker 1: and every single one of us has the power to
Speaker 1: change the culture that we live in through simple gestures.
Speaker 1: And if most of us start doing that, or even
Speaker 1: some of us start doing that, it begins to change
Speaker 1: the fabric. So smiling and waving at your neighbors when
Speaker 1: you pass them on the street or on the sidewalk,
Speaker 1: introducing yourself to a new person who just started at
Speaker 1: your company, right, being a little bit more friendly in
Speaker 1: your interaction with a barista or someone the cashier when
Speaker 1: you're checking out at the grocery store. Each of those
Speaker 1: little touch points. First of all, the research, a lot
Speaker 1: of studies show that those little touch points matter and
Speaker 1: that actually they can boost our mood and make us
Speaker 1: feel more connected to our communities. So on one hand,
Speaker 1: there's that, but also it's about changing the social norms right,
Speaker 1: and each step that you take really counts, and that
Speaker 1: should be empowering to each of us that knowing that
Speaker 1: what you do matters. At the same time, there are
Speaker 1: these broader, kind of systemic changes that we need to
Speaker 1: be making, and so you mentioned policy. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of really interesting things going on in that space. There
Speaker 1: is legislation proposed to start funding more solutions for loneliness
Speaker 1: and programs around connection. The US Surgeon General's advisory last
Speaker 1: year around loneliness as a public health priority, he made
Speaker 1: many recommendations for how we collectively, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: big we as a society can start changing our country,
Speaker 1: and we need it. People are so polarized here in
Speaker 1: the US. But then other countries are doing this as well.
Speaker 1: You know, the UK and Japan both have ministers for loneliness.
Speaker 1: Again in the book, you know, you mentioned earlier that
Speaker 1: I'm sort of over loneliness. I think those should be
Speaker 1: ministers for social health and focus on the goal that
Speaker 1: we're moving toward rather than how it needs.
Speaker 2: To appoint you then ami health.
Speaker 1: And and so there's there's a lot of interesting momentum
Speaker 1: where this is being taken seriously at the federal and
Speaker 1: kind of global level, and that's really positive. And all
Speaker 1: of those those steps add up. You know, in healthcare now,
Speaker 1: there's a push toward social prescribing, where doctors are asking
Speaker 1: about how connected you feel and prescribing opportunities for engagement
Speaker 1: in the community. Right. There's a whole innovation wave of
Speaker 1: technology innovators who are creating apps and different tools designed
Speaker 1: for more meaningful connection rather than just ad revenue. Right.
Speaker 1: And so you start to see that there's across sectors,
Speaker 1: at all these different levels, there is so much momentum
Speaker 1: and so much progress toward creating a more socially healthy culture.
Speaker 1: I'm very optimistic that going forward. Well, you say I'm
Speaker 1: too positive, but I know from my vantage you're not nice.
Speaker 1: I see so many promising things underway that I think wonderful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have a lot to look forward to and reasons
Speaker 1: to be hopeful.
Speaker 2: I go up your positivity. I love it. The world
Speaker 2: needs more of it. The world needs more of it
Speaker 2: right now. Trust me, there's so much cynicism in America
Speaker 2: right now and distrust of each other, and isn't that causing? Man?
Speaker 2: I wish everyone read your book, and I also wish
Speaker 2: that your book went everywhere in the education world. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm very deeply passionate about education, and I see so
Speaker 2: much potential when I was reading your book for teachers
Speaker 2: to really instill these messages in children who. Of course,
Speaker 2: loneliness is big, but as you note, you know, there's
Speaker 2: a lot more to life than just not feeling lonely,
Speaker 2: and especially in childhood feeling and also there's more than
Speaker 2: belonging right, and so in childhood really being able to
Speaker 2: have what would it mean to have like social gyms?
Speaker 2: You know, you know, you have like regular gyms, but
Speaker 2: like physical fitness gyms, but if you had like social
Speaker 2: fitness challenges. I don't know. Is that corny that's in
Speaker 2: the book?
Speaker 1: That's there? I think, my god, which chapter is it?
Speaker 1: I literally talk about social fitness. It's happening, there's there,
Speaker 1: there are companies creating them as we speak. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: But your point on schools, it's it's great. And there
Speaker 1: are wonderful nonprofits like Only seven Seconds. I serve on
Speaker 1: their scientific advisory board who that has a curriculum for
Speaker 1: schools to help teach kids and teenagers to connect more
Speaker 1: meaningfully beyond differences is another nonprofit that's that's working in
Speaker 1: the space and has fantastic curriculum. So that's happening, making
Speaker 1: caring common at the Harvard School of Education also has
Speaker 1: phenomenal resources around teaching these skills and youth. So there there,
Speaker 1: These are happening, and we just need to spread it
Speaker 1: and proliferate it that much more so that it's really
Speaker 1: embedded in our DNA.
Speaker 2: Yes, I love that. I love that. You know you're
Speaker 2: talking about we need to spread these inspiring examples, And
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with that more. I mean, I just
Speaker 2: feel like the news is constantly hitting us with kind
Speaker 2: of the worst of humanity, and it is painting a
Speaker 2: bleak picture right the even the Surgeon General, you know,
Speaker 2: who I admire very much, and I have spoken to
Speaker 2: him recently actually about about about transcend We had a
Speaker 2: conversation about what is transcendence? Yes, what does he ask me?
Speaker 2: What is transcendence? You know, how can we have So
Speaker 2: we talked about how we can have more of that
Speaker 2: and but but you know, he folks, you know loneliness,
Speaker 2: you know, and and and and and all the stats
Speaker 2: showing a bleak picture. So we need we need more
Speaker 2: casolic Kilms in this world who show, uh, just give
Speaker 2: give us hope, give us home, Come on, give us.
Speaker 2: It's tough out here as being human.
Speaker 1: It is so tough being human, it really is.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Even the Surgeon General though last fall, he for the
Speaker 1: first time that I'd seen he said, just like physical
Speaker 1: and mental health, our social health is really important. So
Speaker 1: that was the first time I'd seen him use that term.
Speaker 1: And it is spreading right. More and more people are
Speaker 1: recognizing that health is not just physical and mental, it's
Speaker 1: also social. And the more that we recognize that and
Speaker 1: invest in culture where social health is in our DNA,
Speaker 1: the better off we will all be.
Speaker 2: I love it. Well, I think we should end on
Speaker 2: that really great note. Well, I adore you, and I
Speaker 2: and I really am rooting for you. I'm sincerely rooting
Speaker 2: for you because I think that this is so important.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I wish you all the luck with the
Speaker 2: rest of your book tour. How I hope you can
Speaker 2: find the asfl introvert who has done book tours. Maybe
Speaker 2: I'll give you all wine I'll give you some tips
Speaker 2: because it can get rough. It can get you know
Speaker 2: you're doing, like podcasts after podcast or a podcast, you
Speaker 2: know you really need to make sure you take care
Speaker 2: of yourself. Is what I'm saying. Make sure you take
Speaker 2: care of yourself.
Speaker 1: Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm just grateful to be
Speaker 1: having conversations about this, and I really appreciate you having
Speaker 1: me on This is a pleasure.
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure for me too.