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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: and more trustworthy mainstream by becoming a breaking Points Premium

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. Well,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Counterpoints Friday. Actually on a Friday this time,

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Speaker 1: not Counterpoints Monday or Tuesday, but actually on Friday. We

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Speaker 1: even did a Wednesday. We still haven't done a Thursday.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Okay, so we're coming for Thursday. Thursday's not

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Speaker 1: safe from us. Stay away from Saturday and Sunday. That's right. Also,

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Speaker 1: our first Counterpoints Friday with a live studio audience of one.

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Speaker 1: That's right. My mom is sitting about ten yards away

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Speaker 1: from us, and she is going to be somewhat of

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Speaker 1: an unbud man. Every time Ryan says something socialist about

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Speaker 1: unions or the economy, the audience has been prepped not

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Speaker 1: to boo too loudly. Yes, there won't be any booing,

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Speaker 1: but that it is sort of fun to have a

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Speaker 1: little live studio audience. I'm sure why she has a

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Speaker 1: little bucket of tomatoes. I think we might find out

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Speaker 1: she brought eggs. All right, Well, our first topic today,

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Speaker 1: we're going right in on the midterms. And I want

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Speaker 1: to put this soot up because Peter Doucey from Fox

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Speaker 1: News pressed President Biden at a news conference this week,

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Speaker 1: and I think the question he asks and the way

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden responds opens up a bigger discussion about what's

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Speaker 1: happening in the midterm elections. So let's go ahead and

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Speaker 1: roll a one. Domestic, They're all important. Unlike you, there's

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Speaker 1: no one thing it crosses the board. Domestic asks me

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Speaker 1: about foreign policy too. There's multiple, multiple, multiple issues, and

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Speaker 1: they're all important, and so and we ought to be

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Speaker 1: able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

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Speaker 1: You question, all right, Ryan, can they walk at chew gum?

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Speaker 1: At the same time, there's been a lot of chatter

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Speaker 1: in the Beltway press over the last couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: about whether Democrats have sort of handicapped themselves by focusing

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Speaker 1: so much on the abortion issue because they thought they

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Speaker 1: had the win at their backs after the Dobs ruling,

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Speaker 1: that this was going to help them eat away at

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Speaker 1: what was going to be a really positive turnout for

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Speaker 1: Republicans in the fall with a bad economy. But is

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Speaker 1: that actually the case. Do you think that's actually what's

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Speaker 1: going on, or do you think the Democrats really are

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Speaker 1: walking and chewing gum at the same time, meaning that

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Speaker 1: they can talk about both of those issues, and they

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Speaker 1: can target ads about abortion where it'll matter and maybe

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Speaker 1: not so much elsewhere. I think Behinden is right in

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Speaker 1: the sense that people contain multitudes, right, like the idea

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Speaker 1: that you have to choose between all of the different

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Speaker 1: things that you care about, Like, well, I care about inflation,

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Speaker 1: therefore I don't care about abortion, or hey, I care

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Speaker 1: about abortion rights, you know, pro or con, therefore I

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Speaker 1: don't care about inflation. It's a question of salience, and

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Speaker 1: it's a question of what moves people two things. What

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Speaker 1: moves people to vote or not to vote right, and

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Speaker 1: what moves people to switch sides and pundits might we'll

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Speaker 1: find out on election night. I'm not terribly optimistic about Democrats' chances,

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Speaker 1: but they have overperformed in basically every special election that

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Speaker 1: we've had since the Dobs ruling. Overperformed polls, overperformed expectations.

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Speaker 1: And if they do end up overperforming, it will be

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Speaker 1: because people, when they were asked what is the most

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Speaker 1: important issue, they say, well, inflation, Like every single day,

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering for two reasons. One, I fear about inflation,

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Speaker 1: you know on the car radio when I'm driving around,

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Speaker 1: and I know that that's going to impact my four

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Speaker 1: to one k which I've watched, you know, twenty percent

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have four to one k's. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people have watched their four one k's nosedive.

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Speaker 1: That bothers them, even if they're not going to retire,

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Speaker 1: you're for ten twenty thirty years. It's like watching that

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Speaker 1: happen gives you an anxiety. Secondly, seeing prices rise, spending

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Speaker 1: hundreds of more dollars a month that you don't have

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Speaker 1: on things that you need. Gas prices are going back up.

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Speaker 1: Gas price going. So when you're asked what's the issue

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Speaker 1: that's most important to you, you're going to respond to that. Also,

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Speaker 1: there's tons of polling research that what the media is

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Speaker 1: talking about then comes back to polsters as the top issue.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely around the deficit. For instance, like nobody

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Speaker 1: says the death saysn't it used to be the number

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Speaker 1: one issue as a deficit? Did we solve the deficit?

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Speaker 1: Is the deficit gone? Deaths is not top thirty anymore.

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Speaker 1: Isn't an amazing how that works? Because the media doesn't

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Speaker 1: talk about the deficit, and so people sometimes view these

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Speaker 1: polls as quizes, what's the correct answer? Well, I hear

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Speaker 1: all the time about inflation, so therefore the correct answer

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Speaker 1: to your question that you're asking me, I'm smart it's inflation. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's also just the conditioning, right if you sort of

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Speaker 1: exist in the media ecosystem as all of us do now,

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Speaker 1: like you can't tune it out if you have social

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Speaker 1: media whatever, you're being bombarded with it, and that sort

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Speaker 1: of conditions, that is the conditioning. I don't think people

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Speaker 1: need to be conditioned in this case to worry immensely

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Speaker 1: about same with abortion, and that's where the wild card

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Speaker 1: could come in because you could have a sizeable number

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Speaker 1: of people who are not a majority. You know it's

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Speaker 1: not going to turn up to be the number one issue,

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Speaker 1: but so many people are going to vote on that

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Speaker 1: issue that that might throw off these polls. Is a point,

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Speaker 1: because even if it's only ten percent like Boom, that

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Speaker 1: flips the apple card of all the punditary Well. So

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Speaker 1: that actually also explains the way the parties are spending,

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Speaker 1: because we talked about this earlier in the week. Midterm

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Speaker 1: elections are largely about turnout. So if you are a

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Speaker 1: party consultant in your engineering election strategies in Ohio, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: wherever it is, Nevada, perhaps you're saying, how do I

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Speaker 1: make sure every Democratic voter actually goes out and pulls

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Speaker 1: the lever for a Democrat? And then it's also your

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Speaker 1: job to bring in independence to the polls. And this

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Speaker 1: is from an Axios reports from the Wesley Media part Project,

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Speaker 1: a university backed political ad research group, finds that the

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Speaker 1: top issue mentioned in ads and Senate races across broadcast

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Speaker 1: TV nationally from September nineteenth through October second was abortion.

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Speaker 1: And you can see where in the aggregate you're if

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Speaker 1: you're asking Joe Biden, can you walk into gum? At

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Speaker 1: the same time, the real question there are is are

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Speaker 1: Democrats focusing on abortion to the detriment of inflation? And

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Speaker 1: that is absolutely real, real question. But if they're doing

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Speaker 1: it smartly, and if Republicans are doing it smartly, and

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Speaker 1: when Republicans run ads, this isn't just about them spending.

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Speaker 1: This is about Republicans spending. If Republicans are doing it correctly.

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Speaker 1: It's also as a motivating factor saying Mark Kelly supports

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Speaker 1: no restrictions on abortion, you know, the if that's the

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Speaker 1: Republican line, that's what you want to be doing, not

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Speaker 1: sort of blocking and tackling. Yeah, last night I watched

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Speaker 1: the Jim Bognet Matt Cartwright debate. Is in Northeast Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: Fun night in the grim House. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: it's my favorite congressional race. Maybe we can talk about

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Speaker 1: it more next week. Matt Cartwright is, you know, an

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Speaker 1: old school populist democrat and watching him kind of parry

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Speaker 1: the inflation blows from Bogunet was what people on the

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Speaker 1: left would love to see every Democrat do. He would

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Speaker 1: just hit him back. He's like look, and even he

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Speaker 1: even used the line that you hear on this show

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Speaker 1: and elsewhere when Boget would talk about Drag Queen's Story Hour,

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Speaker 1: and he'd be like, look here this guy goes with

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Speaker 1: the culture war stuff again, just to try to distract

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Speaker 1: you from the fact that his big donors are making

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Speaker 1: record profits and profiteering and driving up prices, which was

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Speaker 1: kind of how that Katie Porter video went viral this week.

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Speaker 1: Did you see the Katie Porter video talking about Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the and again that's true. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about in my monologue actually about culture

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Speaker 1: war and versus kind of economic issues and how in

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Speaker 1: my opinion, they're often overlapping more than people realize. But

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Speaker 1: to your point, it's incredible how Democrats don't pick up

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Speaker 1: on the messaging of Cartwright, Like why the National Party

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Speaker 1: doesn't do that? Is it because it is actually their

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Speaker 1: vice chair for messaging or something, But they're not still

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Speaker 1: not listening to them. Yeah, but they really aren't running

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Speaker 1: like that is because they're coosing your relationship with the

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Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce. I shouldn't say, no, it's not entirely new.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of them don't want to offend

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Speaker 1: their own donors, I guess right now, well, or they're

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Speaker 1: running in suburban districts maybe where they don't want to

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Speaker 1: be accused of being socialists or something like that. Something.

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Speaker 1: So so it's not working. So we let's pull up

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Speaker 1: a two here, which is so five point thirty eight

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Speaker 1: flagged on Twitter yesterday that Republicans, after trailing for a

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Speaker 1: very very long time in the generic congressional ballot, ticked

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Speaker 1: up by one tenth of a percent. So they're now

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Speaker 1: up by one tenth of a percent in the generic ballot.

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Speaker 1: That is obviously not statistically significant, but the direction is significant.

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Speaker 1: Like they have they have been trending upwards, Democrats have

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Speaker 1: been trending downwards, as you know, as we get closer

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Speaker 1: to the election, and actually ballots are already out, so

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Speaker 1: we're in the midst of the election. Typically the president's

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Speaker 1: party starts to lose momentum heading into the you know,

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Speaker 1: the people that are still on the fence at this

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Speaker 1: point oftentimes swing over towards Republicans, and the polling is

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Speaker 1: so bad that it's really hard to know, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you are either party at this point, if you're Republicans,

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Speaker 1: you want to be up a couple points because Democrats

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Speaker 1: that overperformed in all of these recent races, although you

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Speaker 1: have a gerrymandering, you know, and geographical structural advantage where

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Speaker 1: you you know, if there's a flat fifty to fifty vote,

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Speaker 1: Republicans win the House if you're Democrats. Though you look

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Speaker 1: at all the polling misses in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, else

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Speaker 1: in Michigan, Ohio, all over the country, like, we need

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Speaker 1: a much bigger margin than we have right here. Well,

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Speaker 1: and they're up like three point four in the aggregate

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Speaker 1: of the RCP aggregate as well, three point four points.

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Speaker 1: And that's it. It wasn't always that way. It's the

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Speaker 1: trend is going higher as the last couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: the gap is getting highers the last couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's it's partially that it's also partially

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Speaker 1: where the money has gone. You know, after Labor Day,

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Speaker 1: people start spending big money in some of those races,

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Speaker 1: and that what happens, I think downstream of the money

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Speaker 1: coming in is that people sort of realize what their

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Speaker 1: messages actually are and have to be right. And as

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Speaker 1: that kind of congeals, you see the efficacy of it,

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Speaker 1: and gas prices are not helping democrats right now at all.

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Speaker 1: Obviously inflation is a broader issue, but I think specifically

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Speaker 1: gas prices went down a little bit, and that when

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Speaker 1: the congressional were when the generic ballot was a little

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Speaker 1: bit tighter, gas prices were a little bit lower, And

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Speaker 1: so all of that sort of drives people in different directions.

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Speaker 1: And to the point I was making earlier about inflation

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Speaker 1: and being concerned relative to the the markets too, let's put

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Speaker 1: up a three here, which is you're getting you're getting

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Speaker 1: signals from the Federal Reserve that they're not happy that

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Speaker 1: their raising of interest rates has seemingly had so little

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Speaker 1: effect on inflation, and so they're signaling that in their

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Speaker 1: next several meetings are going to continue raising interest rates,

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Speaker 1: are going to until they push it well over four percent,

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Speaker 1: and they're going to leave it there for most of

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Speaker 1: the rest of the year. And this actually goes back

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Speaker 1: to the conversation that we were having with Matt Stoller

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Speaker 1: and Dave Dan. But I guess two weeks ago now

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Speaker 1: where Dave Dane making the argument that okay, if it

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Speaker 1: was true that raising rates was actually going to deal

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Speaker 1: with the drivers of inflation, then okay, then let's have

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Speaker 1: that conversation. If this tightening was going to do that

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Speaker 1: in some way other than just massively ratching up unemployment,

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Speaker 1: let's think about it. I think what we're seeing so

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Speaker 1: far is evidence that Dan is correct at this point

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Speaker 1: that the drivers of inflation are not the things that

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Speaker 1: you can manipulate with tightening or loosening. Fed pole. See

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Speaker 1: if if it's supply chain driven, if it's drought driven,

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Speaker 1: if it's driven by the war, if it's driven by

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Speaker 1: sanctions on Russia, if it's driven by OPEK cutting the

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Speaker 1: amount of oil that it's producing, the Federal Reserve, monkying

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Speaker 1: around with its you know, it's it's fed funds rates

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Speaker 1: isn't going to affect any of that stuff other than,

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Speaker 1: you know, savagely depressing the economy and throwing so many

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Speaker 1: people out of work that eventually, as a knock on effect,

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Speaker 1: those those prices come down. And so what you're seeing

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Speaker 1: here is that they're like, well, I guess we're just

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Speaker 1: gonna have to keep doing it and maybe then it'll

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Speaker 1: rain in California, or maybe then the war in Russia

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Speaker 1: will end, or maybe then they you know, we won't,

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Speaker 1: we won't be seeing heat waves in India or like

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Speaker 1: they feel like they're so divorced from the reality of

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Speaker 1: the economy that they don't recognize this something that Brad

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Speaker 1: DeLong in his recent book was pointing out, which is

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Speaker 1: that if you think of inflation, you know, people talk

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Speaker 1: about it, you know, heating up if you think or

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Speaker 1: a fever, like if you think of the purpose of

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Speaker 1: a fever, like a fever and you know so and

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Speaker 1: this is this is kind of the new medicine that

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Speaker 1: the pd Stritchan has been telling us, Like if if

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Speaker 1: the fever is below like one o one, one hundred

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Speaker 1: or so, you'll let it run, because the fever has

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Speaker 1: a purpose. Rub some dirt in it, rubs some dirt

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Speaker 1: in it, you let it run. For if it gets higher,

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Speaker 1: then then you need to seek like serious intervention. But

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Speaker 1: if it's running at one hundred hundred one, there's a

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Speaker 1: reason the body is doing that. The body is heating

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Speaker 1: itself up so that the heat, then, you know, is

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Speaker 1: an immuno response and pushes down whatever the problem was

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Speaker 1: and beats it. So if as soon as you see

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Speaker 1: a little tiny spike in your in a fever, you

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Speaker 1: take you take advil, then that allows the virus to

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Speaker 1: just oh sweet, no immune response. I just rock and

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Speaker 1: roll here for a while. You'll feel better. And so

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Speaker 1: inflation is a signal to the economy that's something's off.

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Speaker 1: In the early part of the pandemic, the inflation was

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Speaker 1: a signal that the supply chains were completely broken. So

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Speaker 1: you can either then invest as a society and figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to fix those supply chains and then

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Speaker 1: bring that fever down, or you can just dump a

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Speaker 1: bunch of advot, which is saying, well, the problem is

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Speaker 1: too many people are buying things, and people have money

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Speaker 1: because they have jobs, so therefore we need to throw

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Speaker 1: people out of work so then when they don't have jobs,

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Speaker 1: they won't be able to buy things, and then that

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Speaker 1: will fix the supply chains. Except you didn't fix the

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Speaker 1: supply chains. You still have your same supply chains, so

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Speaker 1: that the next time then you have economic growth again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have another supply chain crisis. Well, we

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Speaker 1: never fixed it. That's our entire economy. It's like band

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Speaker 1: aids over band aids over band aids that are often

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Speaker 1: crony band aids, but it's just like band aids layered

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Speaker 1: on top of other band aids. And that's what when

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Speaker 1: people say we have this like wonderful free market system,

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking about people on the right. No, we

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Speaker 1: have a wonderful remarket system, but for cronies. But the

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Speaker 1: other thing I was going to say to that point is,

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Speaker 1: in this case, it is somewhat complicated by the reality

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Speaker 1: that to invest in those fixes, the spending can be

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Speaker 1: inflationary too. And so it's it's just a kind of

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Speaker 1: a lose lose being you're between a rock and a

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Speaker 1: hard place, basically. And so if that five thirty eight

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Speaker 1: forecast of a zero point one percent advantage for Republicans

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Speaker 1: in the midterms comes to be, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: a speaker, Kevin McCarthy. And if we can put up

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Speaker 1: b one here, Emily Chachinsky has a profile of Kevin McCarthy,

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Speaker 1: just ran in The Federalist. So you know, tell us, what,

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Speaker 1: what was your impression of Kevin McCarthy. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of interesting stuff going on with

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Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy. Remember he is the he's a young gun, right.

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Speaker 1: Remember that hilarious photo shoot and book with Eric Canter,

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Speaker 1: Paul Ryan, and Kevin McCarthy. Incredible it looks like a

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Speaker 1: men's warehouse ad. And so he was. He sort of

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Speaker 1: came up under Bayner, under Ryan, very much an establishment

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Speaker 1: fixture who is now on really good terms with Jim Jordan,

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Speaker 1: he is now on really good terms with basically the

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Speaker 1: entire Freedom Caucus. He's on decent terms with Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: And so here's this question of how did this establishment

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Speaker 1: fixture navigate the Trump era in a way where he

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Speaker 1: emerges as the last young gun standing. He's the one

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Speaker 1: that managed to actually have really good relationships with people

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Speaker 1: like Jim Jordan, Donald Trump while also having good relationships

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Speaker 1: with the establishment, continuing to have a good relationship with

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Speaker 1: the establishment. It's an interesting question. And it's not to

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Speaker 1: say that Kevin McCarthy is brilliant or dumb, although Politico

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Speaker 1: ran up he's earlier this year, asking is Kevin McCarthy

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Speaker 1: a dummy, like a giant dummy? Is he a dummy? No,

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Speaker 1: he's not. He's And I think that's really what's interesting

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Speaker 1: here is that, like he's very savvy and he's such

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Speaker 1: a people person that the Republican Caucus feels very heard

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Speaker 1: by him, which goes a long way when you need

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Speaker 1: to sort of unite people and get all of their

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Speaker 1: votes for speakers. All that is to say, we are

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Speaker 1: likely to see a speaker Kevin McCarthy. In the story,

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Speaker 1: I have a Freedom Caucus source basically saying that is

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Speaker 1: not done and dusted is what he says. You know,

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Speaker 1: Politico also had a piece saying Kevin McCarthy Freedom Caucus

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Speaker 1: is totally behind him. I don't think that's the case,

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Speaker 1: but I think he's going to have to make some concessions.

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Speaker 1: In the story, Rachel Bovard talks about how Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 1: basically blew up a lot of precedents, and by her

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Speaker 1: own admission, she said, we had to blow up those

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Speaker 1: precedents essentially to deal with the threat of trump Ism,

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Speaker 1: to deal with the threat of the insurrection, etc. Etc.

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Speaker 1: So that means Republicans want Kevin McCarthy to fight fire

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Speaker 1: with fire. He's going to boot Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell

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Speaker 1: from the Intelligence Committee. He's going to boot ilhan Omar

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Speaker 1: from Foreign Affairs if he is speaker, if Republicans win.

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Speaker 1: He's not ready to talk about impeachment yet. That's one

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Speaker 1: thing that has a lot of people on the right

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Speaker 1: kind of riled up. They wish he would come out

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Speaker 1: guns of blazing and go for Mayorcis, go for Merrick Garland.

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Speaker 1: He says he'll do it if something occasions, impeachment, but

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Speaker 1: he's he's really walking a tightrope and he could slip

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Speaker 1: and follow at any moment. But he's been doing this

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Speaker 1: for years, and I think it's worth paying attention to.

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Speaker 1: What do they want to do Garland for the letter

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Speaker 1: about the parents in Virginia, Well, that's yeah, to start

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Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, the other FBI uh yeah, generally it

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Speaker 1: would all come down to FBI corruption. Gotcha. You had

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Speaker 1: an interesting anecdote about Jim Jordan because it is and

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Speaker 1: I think that a lot of liberals have not picked

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Speaker 1: up on the fact that Kevin McCarthy has really ingratiated

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Speaker 1: himself with the right, and so they keep thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's not gonna be able to handle the right. It's

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Speaker 1: like no, Actually, if you follow the caucus or the conference,

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Speaker 1: it's so annoying that it's a Democratic caucus and a

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Speaker 1: Republican conference. Like the Republicans in the House call themselves

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Speaker 1: a conference. Democrats are caucus and actually there I called

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Speaker 1: them a caucus too, though there's there's there's actually a

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Speaker 1: supposed to be a meaningful distinction between the two. A

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Speaker 1: caucus is supposed to vote together, where a conference is

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Speaker 1: like people who are conferring, conferring but are still individuals,

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Speaker 1: but they're not. Actually there's there're a caucus now, so

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Speaker 1: let's call them a caucus. So the Republican caucus is

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Speaker 1: actually pretty you know, united behind Kevin McCarthy. It seems

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Speaker 1: at this point, as Rachel said in your piece, the

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Speaker 1: frame caucus do only have the juice to take him out.

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Speaker 1: You had a good you had this interesting anecdotebout Jim

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Speaker 1: Jordan and how he kind of jammed him onto the

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Speaker 1: Oversight Committee against the wishes of the committee. How do

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Speaker 1: you do that? And how what's been what's been the

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Speaker 1: fallout from that? Yeah, there hasn't been fallout, which is

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Speaker 1: what's so interesting. It's like he tells the story about

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Speaker 1: how after Jim Jordan ran against him for Speaker, he said,

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Speaker 1: he called Jordan up. I think they were freshmen congressman together.

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Speaker 1: He called Jordan up. Jordan was working out at the

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Speaker 1: gym and Kevin McCarthy said, listen, you've got to get

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Speaker 1: down here. I need you to be oversight share. You're

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Speaker 1: the best person for the job. It's work hours. What

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Speaker 1: are you doing? I mean, I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what was in the steer, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: what hours the Steering committee keeps. So but Jordan comes

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Speaker 1: down and gives his presentation to the Oversight Committee or

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Speaker 1: to the steering committee, and they erupt. Is what Kevin

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Speaker 1: McCarthy said. The steering committee is up. Yeah, on Kevin

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Speaker 1: McCarthy for bringing Jordan in. McCarthy says, you elected me

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Speaker 1: to lead, let me lead. Sticks his neck out for Jordan.

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Speaker 1: Jordan does what just by all accounts everybody's on the

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Speaker 1: right believes was a great job in oversight and Kevin

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Speaker 1: McCarthy se said as a real success point. And that's

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Speaker 1: a Jim Jordan is really his bridge to the Freedom Caucus.

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Speaker 1: But as we talked about with Ken Buck earlier this week,

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Speaker 1: that bridge could It's possible that bridge could break if

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Speaker 1: the Freedom Caucus gets annoyed enough with Jordan over their

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Speaker 1: disagreements on big tech stuff. Who knows if that happens,

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Speaker 1: but it's another thing to watch out for. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Kevin McCarthy has been very intentional. He is

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Speaker 1: not Paul Ryan. He's surely not John Bayner. And that's

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Speaker 1: an interesting point that you raised about how on the left,

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Speaker 1: I don't think people recognize how sincere it's another story

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Speaker 1: from the pieces. Very quickly he talks about, Jim Jordan

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Speaker 1: talks about and Kevin McCarthy talks about how that first

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Speaker 1: impeachment of Donald Trump, they did not lose a Republican

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Speaker 1: vote and they've lost Adam Kinsinger and Liz Cheney on

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Speaker 1: January sixth stuff. But that's pretty remarkable given where we

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Speaker 1: know Republicans are sort of behind closed doors when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Donald Trump, right, and also when it comes

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Speaker 1: to sending weapons to Ukraine and national security behind closed doors,

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Speaker 1: which was that what that impeachment was about exactly, and

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Speaker 1: so for him to be able to do that was

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Speaker 1: a feat. And Jim Jordan talks about how that really

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Speaker 1: brought the conference together. McCarthy saw that as a moment

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Speaker 1: that really brought the comments together. The way I described it,

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Speaker 1: it's like when you're on a high school field trip,

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Speaker 1: like maybe you're going somewhere big and fancy, and something

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Speaker 1: goes really wrong on the trip and everyone becomes best

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Speaker 1: friends because it's like trauma, bonding. That's basically how Republicans

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Speaker 1: would describe their experience with the first impeachment and keeping

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Speaker 1: everybody together, and that is strategically a testament to McCarthy's leadership.

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Speaker 1: Now to your point, Ran, he had some interesting comments

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Speaker 1: this week to punch Bowl where he said, we're basically

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Speaker 1: not going to be giving a blank check to Ukraine

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Speaker 1: in January because people are seeing a recession. They are

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Speaker 1: they're going through a recession, they're dealing with high levels inflation.

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Speaker 1: What they're not going to want to see from US

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Speaker 1: is a blank check to Ukraine. This gets blown up

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Speaker 1: into a whole thing about how Republicans are now this

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Speaker 1: like isolationist Jacksonian party. But what did you make of

427
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: McCarthy waning and on Ukraine, especially with the news that

428
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 1: you wanted to discuss briefly about herson? All right, So,

429
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: so there isn't a there is any development yet on

430
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: this this incoming battle of Cursone, But the Ukrainian government

431
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: has now kind of put out put one, put a

432
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: blackout around all of their operations around the Carsone region,

433
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: and they're telegraphing that there's going to be a major

434
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: assault on Carsona in the next UH in the next

435
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 1: several days, could be could could start today. As far

436
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 1: as we know, it's it's it's running along the same

437
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: pattern as we saw with their know, with this assault,

438
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 1: with this assault on the Eastern Front, what was that

439
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: a month ago or so? UH Carson is the only

440
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: kind of regional capital that Russia was able to take. UH.

441
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: Putin has declared martial law there. He is illegally annexed

442
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: the region. And if they if it falls so quickly

443
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: after that, it'll be a huge blow to Putin and

444
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: the authorities who are currently controlling Carsona have I have

445
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: urged all civilians to evacuate so that they can fortify

446
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: the city, you know, bracing for this coming assault. And

447
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: so it does feel like this could be a battle

448
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: that that that's that tells you where this is heading.

449
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: That if if they get repulsed and then they head

450
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 1: into a winter with UH you know, most of their

451
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: power stations out, and with and with Europe growing growing

452
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: sick of their own kind of travails at the expense

453
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 1: of this war. And if you have McCarthy take power

454
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: in January, Putin may feel like, Okay, I've got this,

455
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: I can just if I can just hold on, I've

456
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: got this. If they take crsone, then the rest of

457
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 1: the war seems foretold in a way. Tell me more

458
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: about that that. From from there, I could just see

459
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: everything just collapsing dominos. Yeah, I mean, because if they

460
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: can't hold the most significant piece that they grabbed, right,

461
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: then what then? You know, you keep saying, well, you

462
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,239
Speaker 1: see kind of you know, supporters of the Russian war

463
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: efforts saying, you know, don't dismiss this, this war. They

464
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 1: seize thirty percent of territory. Well, and they still hold

465
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: twenty percent of territory. And then they're like, well they

466
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,479
Speaker 1: hold eighteen percent of then they hold fifteen percent, they

467
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: hold they hold ten percent of Ukrainian territory. And at

468
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: that point you're like, morale is so important that you

469
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: can if you see which direction things are going, then

470
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: you could imagine these different you know, these different fortifications

471
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: just saying you know what, I'm not here for this.

472
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 1: Well and on this point, really interesting. This is from

473
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: Morning Call Consult, which says they're tracking quote shows the

474
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: share of Republicans who say the US is doing too

475
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: much to halt Russia's invasion of Ukraine has doubled from

476
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: thirteen percent to twenty seven percent, So twenty seven percent

477
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: of people say the US is doing too much. That

478
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: was from March to May, so those are somewhat outdated numbers,

479
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: but you can see that doubling really quickly, and that's very,

480
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: very interesting, and that's where you start to see this

481
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: creeping into Republican rhetoric and perhaps into Republican policy. Now

482
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell is very hawkish and is all in on

483
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: sending a lot of money to Ukraine. Obviously, if Ukraine

484
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: is able to have a bulwark militarily, that's coming from heavily,

485
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: heavily coming from US funding, and so it's heavily reliant

486
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: on their ability to persuade to have Mitch McConnell persuade

487
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: a Republican Party or a Cavin McCarthy to be on

488
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: board with that. And to your point, Ryan, one thing

489
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: I always see happening in Washington is you can always

490
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: make the case for the next step, the next spending,

491
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: the next increment, and the next bill. Because this is

492
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: about Carson, and if Carson goes then you have a

493
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: domino effect and that's something Republicans are going to have

494
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: to deal with I think, or they might not, because

495
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: I could see a scenario where in the Lame Duck,

496
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: let's say Republicans have taken over both chambers, or they

497
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: took over just the House. I could see in the

498
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: Lame Duck Pelosi on her way out, sitting down with

499
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: Schumer and McConnell and saying, here come the crazies, like,

500
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: let's write a blank check. Well, or not necessarily blank check,

501
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: but how about another fifty billion like that should get

502
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: not one hundred billion. We're not going to spend it all,

503
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: but here's one hundred billion that's available. I could absolutely

504
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: see that happening, And all it has to do is

505
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: get through the House, yep. And then once it gets

506
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: the Senate, like you said, McConnell, and enough Republicans you've

507
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: got people la Portman and Blunt and other retiring Republicans,

508
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: that breezes through and then McCarthy uh can say he's

509
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: not going to send any more money. It won't matter,

510
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: which actually probably would be his preference, Like if you could,

511
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, if you could speak to him completely privately

512
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: about it, he probably wants to send money there, but

513
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: doesn't want his fingerprints on the money. Because if you

514
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: notice he said, social interests want us to spend money

515
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: in you and and so do a lot of the

516
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: hawkish donors in the Republican Party that are left the

517
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: base doesn't necessarily want it, but a lot of the

518
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: donors that may be changing. Some of them right, Some

519
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: some do, some don't. But but you notice is phrasing

520
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: he said, we're not gonna send a blank check. That's

521
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: different than saying we're not gonna send money check. We'll

522
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: set a check and and and it is it is

523
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: shameful that a that that that there have not been

524
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: strings attached, that there has not been oversight put on

525
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: this money. We're gonna see we're gonna see these weapons, uh,

526
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: you know, all over the world, and you're going to

527
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: see enormous amounts of it skimmed. You're also obviously seeing

528
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: enormous amounts of it fired at the Russian military and

529
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: at their physicians. So it's not as if nothing's being

530
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: done with the weapons. But so McCarthy I think would

531
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: still sign off on significant military aid, but there would

532
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: be like money for the IG. There's basically there's basically

533
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: evidence that there are cracks in the foundation that really

534
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: has not had cracks in it. Pat Buchanan, I don't

535
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: think really put cracks in it, but maybe tiny little

536
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: hairline fractures that are now opening up into cracks in

537
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: the sort of neo conservative foundation of the Republican Party.

538
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 1: There was a quote that you were highlighting earlier. What

539
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: was who was that from? About how you're never going

540
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: to have an hawkish Republican Party. Again, that's exactly why

541
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: you should stay tuned for the next segment because it

542
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: is indeed in the article that we were about to

543
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: talk about one stick around for that. Well, that's right,

544
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: we can start with it right now. It is if

545
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: we can put c one up. This is a story

546
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: that was in a very long and in depth kind

547
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: of profile of the Republican Party's struggles with those cracks

548
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: and the foundation that we talked about in the last segment.

549
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: When you start to have people like Kevin McCarthy saying, well,

550
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: we're not going to send a blank check to Ukraine,

551
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: which is Ryan points out, is different than a check.

552
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: So the headline here is the neocons are losing. Why

553
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: aren't we happy? Ryan? The quote that you're referencing that

554
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: you're referenced in the last block comes from Kevin Roberts

555
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: of the Heritage Foundation, who's saying that, and I'm paraphrasing this,

556
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: we are unlikely to ever have a Republican, a hawkish

557
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: Republican president again, because the movement has shifted, and he's

558
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: quoted in the New Republic article is saying that. And

559
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: let me just read one quote that I think encapsulates

560
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: the argument of the New Republic piece. It says, the

561
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: Jacksonian moment is coming in preventing overreach and curbing the

562
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: default hawkishness that still predominates in Washington. This is a

563
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: welcome development, but with their hostility to alliances, diplomacy, and internationalism,

564
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: the Jacksonians may make us foreign policy unnecessarily ruthless and selfish,

565
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: while making new enemies and destroying some of our greatest strengths.

566
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: From somebody on the left, do you share those concerns

567
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: about creeping isolationism? And they don't mean that in a

568
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: pejorative sense. On the right, I'm all for isolation. Let

569
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: it creep, Let it creep as much as it can creep.

570
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: I thought, Jackson, But why do they go to Jackson.

571
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: Why don't they go to Jackson? Jackson like always Jackson.

572
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: Jackson became president, you know because he like disobeyed orders

573
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: and like invaded Spanish Florida. Like that was the thing

574
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: that like kind of put him on the map. His

575
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: his like absolute genocide of the Native American population was central,

576
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, to his entire political rise, and so did

577
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: he so he like didn't go to war with Britain

578
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: or something, and so that like counts as like he

579
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: didn't go to war with Mexico. He left that for

580
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: other people. He's just always been that avatar. So they

581
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: call them isolationists, right. When neo conservatives want to punch

582
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: at isolation the isolationists, right, they go to Jackson. Oh,

583
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: the neo conservatives go to Jackson. Yeah. When they want

584
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: to create a sort of straw man they are, why

585
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: don't they go to La Follette actual Republican isolationists. That

586
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: asking the wrong person. Weird. Well, he wasn't president, No,

587
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: he wasn't president, but yeah, he was the He was

588
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: kind of the leading isolationist Republican in the early part

589
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. Who and that movement was really

590
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: kind of smashed bits by World War Two. Yes, it

591
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: sure was. And it took until pap you can and

592
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: really to start kind of showing some green shoots. Well,

593
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: and it did, And this is I think a bigger

594
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: question about we lose perspective on how new nuclear technology

595
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: is and the very immediate urgent new threat that nuclear

596
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: technology posed to the world, not just North America and

597
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: not just the European continent in the mid century, right

598
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: after World War Two, informed what became neoconservatism. And this

599
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: isn't to endorse neo conservatism. It's merely to say that

600
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: it's pretty understandable at the time that if you have

601
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: missiles in Cuba, there's sort of a real reason to

602
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: present to deter that and to be doing preventative action

603
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: and the sort of Reagan idea peace through strength of

604
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: building up to the point where you are deterring the

605
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: use of nuclear weapons, because I mean, we had children

606
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: doing nuclear like things under their desks, like doing nuclear

607
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: emergency drills under their desks. Now we traumatize our kids

608
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: just with shooting drills. We traumatize them in so many

609
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: ways now, but yes, that is among many ways we

610
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: traumatize them. And so the sort of broader question of neoconservatism,

611
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: I think is more understandable with that aperture, But at

612
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: the same time, right now what we see is the

613
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: wreckage of decades of neo conservative policy and around the world,

614
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: not just in the United States, of course, not just

615
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: in the United States, very much around the world. And

616
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: with that in the rear view, mirror mirror, this new

617
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: sort of nuclear threat emerges an entirely different context. And

618
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: it is interesting that you're seeing this kind of populoust

619
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: isolationism emerge in a similar cauldron as it did one

620
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: hundred years ago the wake of the Gilded Age, Like

621
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: we're in everybody everybody says we're in a second Gilded Age,

622
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: and so it would make sense that the characteristics of

623
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: the first Gilded Age would be reproducing themselves here, and

624
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: you could see why. In the first Gilded Age, you'd say, look,

625
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: any war that's being fought right now is being fought

626
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: on behalf of the plutocrats the JP Morgan Chase, it

627
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: would say, plutocrats today would be the ones that people

628
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: would see them selves as fighting on behalf of arguably

629
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: much worse plutocrast to stay if it's possible, I don't know.

630
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: I mean, those were some pretty bloodthirsty plutocrats back then,

631
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: and also it's it's what they're capable of getting away with. Yeah,

632
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: that's that's very true. So they're constrained a little bit

633
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: by by their era. So yeah, I think that's a

634
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: significant part of it. That again, the like collapse of

635
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: this social contract results results in people then not trusting

636
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: their leadership, and if one like decent outcome from that

637
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: is that they don't want to join those leaders in wars. Okay,

638
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: I guess let's take that. Yeah, it's that comparison is

639
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: really interesting because what we pejoratively referred to as isolationism

640
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: now when it came to the First World War was

641
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: pretty much public opinion, and it took a long time,

642
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: and Wilson ran on he kept us out of the war, right, well,

643
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: and you remember when George W. Bush ran on keeping

644
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: us out of foreign conflicts? What was the phrase that

645
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 1: he used? Nation building? Right, I'm not gonna do nation

646
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: building just to destroy nations. So he kept that promise.

647
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: He did not build any nations. We will not be

648
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: built yet. So yeah, I mean, I don't know. That

649
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: is a really interesting comparison. And there was this huge influx,

650
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: obviously of European immigration around the time of the builded age,

651
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: which informed by people didn't necessarily want to be entangled

652
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: in foreign conflicts as well. There was like a lot

653
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: going on at that time. But this kind of hubrius

654
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: of the post World War two order was informed by

655
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: a really strong economy and a very strong post war

656
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: economy that was built on a war in so many

657
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: different ways, And there's nothing like that right now at all.

658
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: If anything, it's we've been spending so much money in

659
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: the defense sector abroad that we have you know, empty

660
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: sort of are we have a tattered social safety net.

661
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: Here one piece of fun trivia trivia to finish off

662
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: this block to your point about immigrants and war. The

663
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: way that World War One was sold was through and

664
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: he German hostility, and so there was tons of propaganda

665
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: against beer because beer was considered to be German, and

666
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: prohibition came about, you know, significantly as a result of

667
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: all of the propaganda against Germans to get us into

668
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: World War One. They're like, well, then let's just go

669
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: ahead and ban it all. This isn't trivia to somebody

670
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: from Milwaukee, Ryan, the whole history of the German beer movement,

671
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: it's pretty interesting. Wisconsin always went first with social security,

672
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: with socialoyment, socialism. They did, they ban they didn't ban

673
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: beer first, though too many Germans. I highly doubt that

674
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: we were actually the last state, I think, to give

675
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: into the twenty one, the federal twenty one drinking age.

676
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: And they did that with the highway money. The highway money,

677
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: federal funding for highways. You really had to poke at

678
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: us to get us to go along with that Nashism. Yeah,

679
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: we'd rather have potholes than not at our eighteen year

680
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: olds to drink. Hell yeah, all right, on that note,

681
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: moving on to a much more serious topic. Actually, we

682
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: have some disturbing footage out of Florida that ran in England.

683
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so that the Tampa Bay Times obtained bodycam

684
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: footage of the arrests and they posted three different arrests.

685
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: We're going to play a couple of them here, of

686
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: people who are being charged with voter fraud. And as

687
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: you as you watch these videos, you're going to see

688
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: that what you're looking at, to me, feels like state entrapment.

689
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: These are people who you know, there was a there

690
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: was a referendum that allowed that restored fellon voter rights

691
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: in Florida. The DeSantis administration attached a bunch of different

692
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: conditions and that that made it so that you weren't

693
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: automatically allowed to come back in. It also held exceptions

694
00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: for murder and for sex crimes and so. But the

695
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: entire thing is so confusing because of all the different

696
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: red tape that was thrown up around it. You'll see

697
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: one of these people, the DMV just said, hey you can,

698
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: you can register to vote. Now that these people all

699
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: got voter registration cards from the state, they were on

700
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 1: the rolls, they went to vote, and then the state

701
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: goes and rounds them up. And so I would encourage

702
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: people to watch these clips before they jump and comment

703
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: and say something acid nine like, well, if you don't

704
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: want to get rest for voter fraud, don't do voter fraud.

705
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: Watch it first. If you still want to say something asenine,

706
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: watch it first and then and then say it. So

707
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: let's let's roll some of this. I have to first parents,

708
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: nothing like that. So I didn't do it. Man, we

709
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: have a word for your rents. Well, why vote upside?

710
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: Oh my god, right, so people can going back to

711
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: oh my god. Ultimately, man, you have a warrant. Okay,

712
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: I know you're you caught off guard. I understand, right,

713
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: So you have a warrant. It's for voter fraud. Okay,

714
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: hear me out. It's an r R. You know what

715
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 1: r R is. Oh my god. You go in, you

716
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: get booked, and then they're gonna release you from booking.

717
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: You're gonna be right back out. Okay, but you have

718
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: a warn. Okay, I'm like voter voter, but I commit

719
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: no fraud. Well, so that's the thing. I don't know

720
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: exactly what happened with it, but you do have a warn.

721
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: That's what it's for. Oh my god. Yeah, so I

722
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: don't know what happened with that, but I got out.

723
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: The guys told me get out. We excuse to go

724
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:44,439
Speaker 1: quote whatever copt my tackle. But the warrant was just made,

725
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: uh yesterday, So yeah, I know. I don't know, man,

726
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: I honestly couldn't tell you. Okay, So I gotta do.

727
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: I gotta do some paperwork and the quicker I get

728
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: the paperwork done, get you there. Okay. Hey, unfortunately, you

729
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: got a warrant out, Okay, warrant, yes, sir, I want

730
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: a bunch of perchance on your back for me. Well no,

731
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: but when no one ever really explained all that much.

732
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: You may have told the guys and they ca him

733
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: out here. I was at the drivers in place. Can

734
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: you win the driver's license? Yeah? The guy there asked me.

735
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: He says, hey, can you okay? He says, hey, you

736
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: can make you gone. I'm pretty sure I can't. He goes, well,

737
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 1: you're still on probation. He said no. Uh, I got

738
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: approbation like a month ago. He goes, well, then you

739
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: can probably vote. Hey, just fill out the form and

740
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: if you can vote, then they'll let's give you card.

741
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: You can't vote, and you won't. I'm like, all right,

742
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: then there's your defense. You know what I'm saying sounds

743
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: like to me, won't. We can hope it's because of

744
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: the sex spon or thing that you can't vote. So,

745
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: I mean the warrant is for the voting deal, I guess,

746
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: but I guess it's kind of old tide together a. Yeah.

747
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: I guess they're doing like some kind of round up

748
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: thing or something for all the ones that were within

749
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 1: the county. Yeah. I had to do one of these

750
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: this morning already. Oh really, do you know it doesn't

751
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: say it on the let's walk over to now doing

752
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: this now and this happened years ago. I don't know.

753
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: I have no idea. Man, this is crazy. Man not

754
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: put me in jail for something I didn't even know

755
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: nothing about. Why would y'all let me vote? If I wouldn't,

756
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: I was able to vote. So those are officers with

757
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: the police force that Ron DeSantis created called the Florida

758
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: Office of Election Crimes and Security. It was part of

759
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 1: a leave eighteen eighteen arrests. DeSantis followed it with a

760
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: press conference like this was a clearly a coordinated sweep.

761
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: And I think, what, like my posting of the video

762
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 1: and us doing it here, is what Ron DeSantis wants.

763
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: I think he wants to chill the get out the

764
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: vote operate, Like he wants people to be afraid of voting,

765
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: that if they go out and vote, there's a chance

766
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: that they don't really understand the rules. And yes, there

767
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: was a felon, there was a felon voter restoration law,

768
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: but it's complicated, and so maybe you actually can't vote.

769
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: And so if you know it really is it really

770
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: worth it? You really want to go out there and

771
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 1: vote because you might wind up getting handcuffed. I saw

772
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: like this to me, it was just as I said

773
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: on the post, just struck me as just deeply evil

774
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: to like, you want to play your culture war games

775
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: in a press conference or whatever, you know, do your

776
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: culture war games, but to then bring it to people's

777
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: front steps, put them in hand cuffs when they thought

778
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: they were able to vote, and also to do it

779
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: in a way that is completely unbalanced, Like there were

780
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: a couple Republicans that were in I think South Florida

781
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: who were caught voting twice on purpose. They knew they

782
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: voted twice, I remember, right, And what did they get,

783
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: like a little community service or something, or they got

784
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: they had to go to a class to teach them

785
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: not to vote twice, like they are not getting charged

786
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: with felonies. I don't know what was your take on this,

787
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: So I mean the law I believe is very clear

788
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: that you have to have intent, and the intent is

789
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: what comes through. The lack of intent is what comes

790
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: through on all of those videos. And so I think

791
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: it was something like twenty people were arrested in this.

792
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: As one of you you heard one of the officers

793
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: say some kind of round up is what he said,

794
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: And you know that question of intent is clearly an

795
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 1: important one if you were listening in the podcast format.

796
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: This was a video from the Tampa Bay Times and

797
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: they put a text over it on that said, everyone

798
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: who is arrested was given a voter registration card. And

799
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: the one man in particular, he was saying he was

800
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: he was at the d m V getting a new

801
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: driver's license and somebody said, hey, you probably can vote,

802
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: and he even raised, well I'm not, are you I'm

803
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: a felon? Well, you know, as long as you're not

804
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: on a probation anywhere else. That was the guy who

805
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: had a sex crime. And look, those are not sympathetic people.

806
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: You know, you went to prison for a sex crime.

807
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 1: That doesn't make you a sympathetic figure. Well, these figures

808
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: are all people who went to prison for murder and

809
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: sex crimes. Right, everyone that you just saw there, the

810
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: woman right, Which is an old and a tried and

811
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: true tactic of government forces is to try to find

812
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: if you're going to try to violate a sacred principle

813
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: like the right to vote, you're you're going to find

814
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: the least sympathetic character so that people will then not

815
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: stand up for that person. It's one reason that when

816
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: governments around the world, and particularly the United States government

817
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: wants to crack down on press freedom. They go after

818
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: Julian Assange because the rest of the news media is like, well,

819
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: we don't even think of him as a journalist. We

820
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: don't like him, and he's a jerk, like personally, we

821
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: don't like him. And so then people say, well, I'm

822
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: for press freedom, but that guy's a jerk. So I'm

823
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: not going to stand up and defend that person because

824
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: I screw them. And then boom, you're just you're just

825
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: allowing your rights to be chipped away at you, don't.

826
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: You know, governments don't take don't target the most popular

827
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: person when they're trying to roll back your rights. That's

828
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: why it's so important if you're standing up for a principle,

829
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: that you have to defend it even when it's unpopular.

830
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: Exactly judge mean by how I treat the least among us,

831
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: And that's a key principle obviously. But the other thing

832
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: I I would add to this is it's very frustrating

833
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: and I don't think it's even tactically smart, the Republican

834
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: focus on voter fraud. So this idea that you have

835
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: illegal people that are like intentionally voting illegally as opposed

836
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: to I actually think there are serious questions about ballot harvesting.

837
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: I think there are serious questions about the way that billionaires,

838
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: Democratic billionaires poured money into especially the twenty twenty election,

839
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: with this operation that was, you know, made it easier

840
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: for all this to happen, laid the groundwork, as markelized

841
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: did in states like Wisconsin to have the money sort

842
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: of smooth the path for Democratic candidates. I think that

843
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: stuff is actually very worth talking about. I think it's

844
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: very worth talking about just the basic sanctity and the

845
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: security of a person going in and casting a secret ballot,

846
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: all of those things very legitimate room for inquiry there

847
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: when it turns into the security of our voting tabulation. Yeah,

848
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: fun hacking, yeah, using especially as we gravitate towards new

849
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: technologies like these are, I think these are very legitimate

850
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: areas of inquiry when it goes into stuff like this. Listen,

851
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: I don't know that this is I don't think this

852
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: is going to hurt Ron DeSantis one bit. I don't

853
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: think there's a political, real political liability for all the

854
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: reasons you just listed. But I also don't think it's

855
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: it's tactically a good use of either a good use

856
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: of your political resources or even just your like resources.

857
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: As a state of course, I don't think that, but

858
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good use of like your

859
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: political capital either, And so it's just very frustrating to

860
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: see people get caught in the mix. Yeah, and this

861
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: is the second time that one of his stunts has

862
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: involved kind of fundamentally transforming the lives of just normal people,

863
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: you know, because there's still an ongoing investigation about the way,

864
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: you know, how did he how did he get these

865
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: venezuelans in Texas onto a charter plane, although that I

866
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: think is increasingly vindicating. I'm following that investigation very closely

867
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: and is increasingly I think it's increasingly vindicating for Santas.

868
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: And maybe we can do a segment this and the

869
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: next week or so. But I mean, it was pretty

870
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: clearly all voluntary and going to Martha's vineyard pretty clearly

871
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: that was communicated as far the more we learn about

872
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 1: as far as we know, what I'm so curious about

873
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 1: is whether there was false information given to people about

874
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: guarantees of housing and work and also the money that

875
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: he got from the Florida legislature to do this was

876
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: for people who were in Florida illegally. Yes, yes, Texas

877
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: is not Florida, so he had he had to fly

878
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: them into Florida. He did do that. So they flew

879
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: them from Texas to Florida. It's a stunt. Yeah, now

880
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: they're in Florida. Now I can spend the money on it.

881
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: So it's like one hundred percent of stunt through and yeah,

882
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: and I don't know the where the bulk of his

883
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: resources in this election security, like what a force have

884
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: been spent. But that's like exactly the thing that you

885
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: risk sort of going over the line when you do

886
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: these stunts to the point where like, well, okay, now

887
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: you're just wasting tax payer money and politicians. I'm coming

888
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: at this from the perspective that politicians engage in stunt period,

889
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: no matter who they are, and just sort of gauging

890
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: this or grading this from the pure cold political strategy perspective,

891
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: that is absolutely where you risk like really pissing people off. Yeah,

892
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm saying a stunt is one thing. Don't destroy Oh good,

893
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: regular civilians' lives who aren't involved in this. Absolutely so

894
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: a firestorm around a Boston University research paper has exposed

895
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: dangerous gaps in public oversight of the type of research

896
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: that has the potential to spark new pandemics. So the

897
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: controversy began when the UK's Daily Mail reported on a

898
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: public preprint describing BU research that took the spike protein

899
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: from the highly contagious omicron variant of COVID nineteen and

900
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: attached it to the more virulent earlier iteration of the virus,

901
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: known as the Washington State variant or the wild type. Now,

902
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: we covered this controversy earlier this week, but since then

903
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 1: BU has really dug in and it's worth examining their

904
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: response because it's a window into how unresponse of some

905
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: of the scientific community have been to the public's very

906
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: real concerns about the safety and wisdom of some of

907
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: this research. So, the researchers infected ten mice with the

908
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: newly created virus. Eight of them died. After the news broke,

909
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: the public controversy took an unusual turn, with unexpectedly sharp

910
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: public comments made by officials from Anthony Fauci's NIH division

911
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: ANIAID directed toward the researchers. The agency told stat News

912
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: they would have reviewed the research, had they been alerted

913
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: to it, and that a probe was now underway. BU

914
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: responded with a public statement that rejected the notion that

915
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: the researchers had any obligation to alert the agency and

916
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: said that while NIAID was thanked for support of research

917
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: that built the groundwork for this project, this particular research

918
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: wasn't directly funded by nih therefore there was no disclosure requirement. Now,

919
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: the extent of the misleading information included in Boston University's

920
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: defense of its research and its lack of transparency serves

921
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: as evidence that the public had health community either does

922
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: not recognize the severe blow its credibility has taken the

923
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: past two years or feels that it is immune from

924
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: that loss of credibility. A closer look at the statement

925
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: reveals the distance still left to go to regain trust

926
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: and guarantee a safer research environment. So let's take it

927
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 1: piece by piece. So the statement's first claim is this.

928
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: They say, first, this research is not gain of function research,

929
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: meaning it did not amplify the Washington State SARS COVID

930
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: too virus strain or make it more dangerous. In fact,

931
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: this research made the virus replicate less dangerous now, that,

932
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: according to doctor Mark Lipsich, who is director of Harvard's

933
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics, is preposterous. Biu's claim that

934
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: the new virus is quote less dangerous is a reference

935
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: to the fact that the original virus killed ten of

936
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: ten mice, while the lab created virus killed just eight

937
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: of ten infected mice. But the key there is that

938
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: the mice were deliberately infected, so while the pathogen was

939
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: slightly less lethal in mice, expected result of attaching the

940
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 1: more effective omicron spike protein to the Washington State virus

941
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: would be to make the original virus more infectious. If

942
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: many more people or mice get infected, that result overwhelms

943
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: the tiny decline in case fatality rate. So here's Lipsich,

944
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: these are unquestionably gain of function experiments. The wild type

945
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: backbone virus gains immune escape from the insertion of the

946
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: omicron spike in ways that the paper describes in detail.

947
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: That is gain of function. Now, because the research was

948
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 1: being done on viruses already in circulation around the world,

949
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,760
Speaker 1: the risk of creating a dangerous novel virus was actually

950
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: kind of low. But the false claims from BU are

951
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: important because they reflect on the inability of researchers to

952
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: self regulate, Lipsich noted, which means the government needs to

953
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: step in with more rigorous oversight. He said, quote. The

954
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: statement from Bu is disturbing in several ways. First, it

955
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 1: denies that this is gain of function. It is gain

956
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: of function if meant sincerely. This is disturbing from the

957
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: institution that did the research because it provides mum official

958
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: evidence that institutions are not equipped to self regulate unquote.

959
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: So next BU makes the following claim. Secondly, the research

960
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: was reviewed and approved by the Institutional Biosafety Committee, which

961
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: consists of scientists as well as local community members. The

962
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: Boston Public Health Commission also approved the research. Okay, But

963
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: in fact, according to a BPHC spokesperson, the researchers submitted

964
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: their proposal and it was approved by the Public Health

965
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: Commission in March twenty twenty. Now, of course, there was

966
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: no omicron in March twenty twenty. Therefore, quite simply, the

967
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: research that was actually performed was not in fact approved

968
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: ahead of time. Various experts have made this point publicly,

969
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: though there's no need for me to quote them here.

970
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: We all understand, at least on a very elementary level,

971
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: the nature of time. The Boston University statement then explains

972
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: why it was not required to inform ANIH of what

973
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: it was up to. We fulfilled all required regulatory obligations

974
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: and protocols, following anid's guidelines and protocols. We did not

975
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: have an obligation to disclose as research for two reasons.

976
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: The experiments reported in this manuscript were carried out with

977
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: funds from Boston University and IAID funding was acknowledged because

978
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: it was used to help develop the tools and platforms

979
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: that were using this research. They did not fund this

980
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: research directly. And IH funding was also acknowledged for a

981
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: Shared Instrumentation grant that helped support the pathology studies. We

982
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: believe that funding streams for tools do not require an

983
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: obligation to report unquote okay, But according to the BU

984
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: researchers preprint, they said, quote this work was supported by

985
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: Boston University startup funds, National Institutes of Health, and IAID grants,

986
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: and then they list the grant numbers, and then the

987
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: paper also acknowledged the support from the Boston University Clinical

988
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: and Translational Science Institute, and they list the grant number

989
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: for that it is two sets five grants. Now. Microbiologist

990
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: Richard Ebright noted that of the five grants acknowledged, only

991
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: two were for equipment and three were for research. One

992
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 1: grant provided seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, another one

993
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: gave CTSI four point six million dollars for clinical research,

994
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 1: clinical trials and supportive activities. In the third gave four

995
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty seven thousand dollars for research titled regulation

996
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 1: of host innate Immunity against viral infection unquote. So, even

997
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: setting aside the dubious argument that public funding of the

998
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: tools used to do research doesn't entitle the same public

999
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 1: to knowledge of what research is being done, and setting

1000
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: aside the false claim that no gain of function was involved,

1001
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: even on its own terms, the BEU claim that only

1002
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 1: tools were funded is called into question by those three grants.

1003
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 1: After I sent those grants to Bu Rachel Cavalerioldbu spokes

1004
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: and told me, quote, the link you shared is a

1005
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 1: different paper research and is the tools and platform forms referenced.

1006
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: But as lipsych explained, if the research grants don't describe

1007
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: the precise research in question, that fact should not get

1008
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: bu off the hook, but instead that fact is actually

1009
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: evidence of the way the system is broken and in

1010
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: need of reform. The second reason they cite as excusing

1011
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: them from reporting obligations is a repeat of the claim

1012
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 1: that no gain of function was involved. We already dealt

1013
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: with that claim. During Kamala Harris's clumsy presidential run. She

1014
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: used to talk about her three AM Agenda, which she

1015
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: described as a plan quote focused on the issues that

1016
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: keep people up at night. Whatever consultant came up with

1017
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: that was actually onto something, even if their idea was

1018
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: wasted on a doomed candidate. Millions of families are waking

1019
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: up in the middle of the night or sitting at

1020
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: the kitchen table after putting the kids to bed, trying

1021
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: to figure out how to make it all work. That's

1022
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: a quote from Kamala Harrison a twenty nineteen op ed

1023
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: that argued her plan included quote solutions that will have

1024
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: a direct and immediate effect on people's lives, paychecks, and healthcare. Again,

1025
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: the consultants onto something. It's important that our politics are

1026
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 1: indeed focused on solving the immediate problems of everyday Americans,

1027
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: not on trumped up media friendly conflicts used to emotionally

1028
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: manipulate voters. Of course, there's really no getting rid of

1029
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: that emotional manipulation, but responsible actors and politics and media

1030
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: should seek to cut through all that noise. So what

1031
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 1: are three AM issues? Surely now it's the full slate

1032
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: of economic pains gas prices, food prices, healthcare, student loan debt.

1033
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: For the average voter, abortion is likely not front of

1034
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 1: mind as polls open around the country. And yet take

1035
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: a look at this video from Dearborn, Michigan. We want

1036
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: to leave the politics out of this. If you're on Facebook,

1037
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: all you see is fear mongering, political rhetoric that this

1038
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: is book banning, censorship, homophobic. All it is protecting our children.

1039
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: We have concerned parents, We have concerned parents, and Dearborn

1040
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: are not tied to the left to the right when

1041
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: it comes to this issue. And we're not going to

1042
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: be used as ponds for any organization for their own attik.

1043
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: We're here to protect our children. Do not fall for

1044
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: the political medice on Facebook, on Instagram. Do not fall

1045
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: for the trip. Is that what they want? They're trying

1046
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: to spare us, They're trying to control their Listen, there's

1047
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: a book. There's a book that was banned and what's

1048
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: called this book is gay? And I tell you, if

1049
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: the book was pull this book is straight, We're still

1050
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: gonna go after it because of teaching kids. It's teaching kids.

1051
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: I want to go online and have sexual hittercourse with

1052
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: others on the internet. There is long The title referenced

1053
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: in that speech is called this book is Gay by

1054
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: Juno Dawson. I'm going to read a positive community review

1055
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: from the Progress from the Progressive Daily Coasts, which compared

1056
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: the book to other lgbtwo books aimed at teens. Quote.

1057
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: Juno goes a bit further, though, offering specific and practical

1058
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: advice on how to find and meet like minded people

1059
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: for socializing and sex. The reviewer notes some of her

1060
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: advice is taylor, specifically for teenagers in high school. She

1061
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: frankly describes the different ways gay men and women bring

1062
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: their partners to orgasm. She includes illustrations not of sex acts,

1063
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: but of bodies, less graphic than those in fun Home

1064
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: and gender queer graphic novels that feature in other book

1065
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: banning attempts. Okay, so like those books, This Book Is

1066
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: Gay has been subject of parent protests. Here's the section

1067
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: of the book the dad referenced in the viral speech,

1068
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: which reads how sex apps work. You can see on

1069
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: the screen. It's basically an instruction on how to get

1070
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,959
Speaker 1: on a sex app and meet someone. Here's another section

1071
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: that provides instructions on how to perform handies and blowies

1072
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: and much much more so. Is this a dumb culture

1073
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: war blow up or a three AM issue? In another

1074
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: part of his viral speech, the father turned protest leader

1075
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: in Dearborn said people have been warning him that if

1076
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: he speaks out, they're going to protest your businesses. You're

1077
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 1: going to get fired from your job. I've got three children.

1078
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: My purpose in this world is protect my kids, and

1079
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: that's all I will do, and nobody will stop me.

1080
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: That's what the dad said. Now, hundreds of members of

1081
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: the Muslim community in Dearborn have come out to school

1082
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: board meetings since September, organizing to keep their kids from

1083
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: accessing books like Dawson's. This is where more culture war

1084
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 1: issues become three AM issues. If you're worried about finances

1085
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: for speaking out against the book that provides a fourteen

1086
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: year old with what reasonable people would agree as unhealthy

1087
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: sexual instruction, then this cultural war issue becomes an economic

1088
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: one as well. None of that is to say cultural

1089
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: issues can't keep people up at night without also being

1090
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: economic ones. It's merely to point out that we often

1091
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: too often think of culture and economics as mutually exclusive areas.

1092
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: This is not an isolated local issue in Dearborn either.

1093
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: This is happening in communities all over the country, and

1094
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: with more than just this one book. These questions played

1095
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: a role in Glen Youngkin's upset last year in Virginia.

1096
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: Parents care about this for understandable reasons. They take issue

1097
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: with the content of the book and the ease of

1098
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: access for their children, who are already very difficult to

1099
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: protect from violent internet porn. The idea that a public

1100
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: school could be undermining their best efforts at parenting is

1101
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: obviously infuriating. Now check out this headline from the Washington Post.

1102
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 1: School board meeting cut short as protests over LGBTQ books

1103
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: grow unruly. All Right, so much of the news coverage

1104
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: has included basically no information about the content parents are

1105
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: objecting to, describing it repeatedly as lgbt rather than sexually explicit,

1106
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: which this book is gay clearly is now I won't

1107
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: deny a chunk of the religious protesters are likely opposed

1108
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: more generally to LGBT books, regardless of whether they're highly sexualized.

1109
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 1: The Detroit Free Press reported at one meeting quote some

1110
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: of the placards held up read keep your porn books

1111
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: to yourself, homosexuality big sin, and if democracy matters, we're

1112
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: the majority. Here's more from the Washington Post quote. Like

1113
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: other parts of the country, conservative Christians were the first

1114
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: to raise fears about books with LGBTQ content in Michigan

1115
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: School District, which serves as the city serves the city

1116
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 1: of Dearborn and part of the Dearborn Heights in the

1117
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: Detroit metro area. The Detroit Free Press reported they then

1118
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 1: rallied the significant Muslim population in both cities to join

1119
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: them right, so that actually gives credence to what the

1120
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,959
Speaker 1: dad said in his viral speech. This isn't about left

1121
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: or right. It's about parents who don't think these books

1122
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 1: are appropriate for teenagers, and parents who are now reasonably

1123
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: panicked about the mindset that informs our education system, which

1124
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 1: is fighting to keep this book as gay and other

1125
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 1: titles in life libraries. Interestingly, Kerr's Michigan organization has been

1126
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: supportive of the parent protesters, while the American Federation of

1127
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: Teachers has been supportive of the books. Reading through weeks

1128
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: of the coverage, I was reminded of a post from

1129
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: Colin Wright's substack Reality's Last Stand this week. It was

1130
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: a pretty nuanced rebuttal by Lisa Celyn Davis of John

1131
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: Oliver's recent Last Week Tonight show on trans issues. So,

1132
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: while mocking his distract attractors for getting facts wrong, John

1133
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: Oliver did very much the same. While pointing that out,

1134
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: Davis landed on a deeper point. She listed off what

1135
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 1: she sees as excesses in Republican anti trans policies, but

1136
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: then she added the Democrats, on the other hand, have

1137
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: passed laws that allow children to medically transition without parental consent,

1138
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: since CPS after parents who don't socially or medically affirm

1139
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: their trans identified kids and attempted to criminalize parents who

1140
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: refuse pediatric gender medical interventions. I think it's safe to

1141
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: call these actions on both sides effing insane, which is

1142
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 1: a term Oliver uses several times, but never for the Democrats.

1143
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: So this is repeated in the media constantly as well.

1144
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: Parents have legitimate reasons to be furious about those books

1145
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: and libraries, or about consent laws on transitioning, for instance,

1146
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: who put those books in libraries? Who passed those laws?

1147
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: It was democrats as as democrats in the left. More broadly,

1148
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: as Davis wrote, a lot of people on the left

1149
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: are worried about the compelled speech of pronoun announcements and

1150
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: that the left's handling of this issue may cost us

1151
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: the election and with our democracy, why not take that seriously?

1152
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: She was talking to John Oliver there. Well back to

1153
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 1: the dad's point, because taking it seriously from the left

1154
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: either requires meaningfully challenging their priors or risking personal and

1155
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: professional blowback. By the way, it's easy to understand why

1156
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 1: genuine bigotry exists, and decent people want to protect others

1157
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: from it. But people are very upset about the culture

1158
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: right now, and they have legitimate reasons to be upset

1159
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: about it. You may disagree with them, but treating all

1160
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: these parents as bigots or opponents generally of GBT books

1161
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: pushes us deeper into a hole. And the deeper we

1162
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 1: go into that hole, the more time we have to

1163
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: spend talking. The more time we have to spend talking

1164
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: about bizarre teen books then fixing our healthcare system. People

1165
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: aren't wrong to care about both. We're joined now by

1166
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: Iranian American journalist Niagar More Tazavi to talk about the

1167
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: latest in the UH in the with the protests in Iran. Niaguar,

1168
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. We had we

1169
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: had said we would also be joined by by pod

1170
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 1: Ark Kotab. She's uh, she's running late. We're gonna We're

1171
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:36,919
Speaker 1: still gonna talk with her later. We'll post that vote

1172
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 1: that video later. But in order to in order to

1173
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 1: get this segment up as part of today's show, we

1174
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: wanted to uh make sure that we had time for it. So, uh,

1175
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:46,439
Speaker 1: you know, thank you, thank you so much for joining

1176
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 1: us today. Thanks for having me. And I want to

1177
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: start a little bit by talking about the unusual circumstances

1178
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: under which you're you're joining us this this this week.

1179
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 1: Uh you know, you you were in the use for

1180
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: a bomb threat that was targeted around a conference in

1181
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: Chicago where you were where you were speaking, and you've

1182
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: continued to receive, you know, significant threats. Can you can

1183
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: you and you know the title I would I don't

1184
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,479
Speaker 1: know if you'd call yourself an Ritan Distant, But in general,

1185
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: over the last several months, Iranian Distant has not been

1186
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: a very kind of safe occupation around the world, both

1187
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 1: in Europe and here in the United States. So what

1188
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: has been what has the last week been like for you? Well,

1189
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: as you said, dissidents, journalists, activists, I'm an exile journalist,

1190
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 1: so I've been living in exile since two thousand and

1191
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 1: nine from Iran. Haven't been able to go back because

1192
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,479
Speaker 1: of the pressure on me from the regime for my work.

1193
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, Unfortunately, journalists, particularly female journalists, analysts, some academics, activists,

1194
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: have been receiving It's been an ongoing trend of online

1195
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: harassment over the past years. It's been documented by multiple

1196
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: human rights organizations, particularly my colleagues who work in the

1197
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: Persian media sphere. BBC Persian other Persian channels are also

1198
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 1: receiving a lot of this, and the level has been

1199
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: increasing so much. There's been an optic in the past

1200
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 1: four years with the protests. It also the irony is

1201
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: that we receive it from both ends, so we get

1202
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: smeared and attacked by the regime as being accused of

1203
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: mouthpieces of foreign governments for US based my colleagues at

1204
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: the BBC or friends at the BBC being mouthpieces of

1205
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: the UK government accused of being mouthpieces of the Europeans,

1206
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: and then by interest groups in some opposition or exists

1207
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 1: being accused of being the mouthpiece of the regime. So

1208
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: both and simultaneously attack us. And you know, I've been

1209
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: trying to do professional nuanced reporting, journalism analysis at times,

1210
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: I've taken breaks from journalism, have worked with IVACC organizations

1211
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: back into analysis now for a few years, and have

1212
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 1: been focusing on around us, around relations for a few years.

1213
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: So I was I get invited on university panels and

1214
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: shows like yours frequently, and I was invited to speak

1215
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 1: at the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago.

1216
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 1: The event, because of the threat and the harassment I

1217
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 1: was getting and the institute was getting, the event was

1218
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 1: moved online and then on the day of the event,

1219
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 1: which was supposed to be held online with the student newspaper,

1220
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 1: I wasn't there in Chicago, but with the student newspaper.

1221
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: The university newspaper, the Chicago Maroon, has reported was that

1222
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: the building where the institute received the threat and they

1223
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:50,439
Speaker 1: closed the building, and the report says that they sent

1224
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 1: some student staff home. I also heard from the institute

1225
01:07:54,360 --> 01:08:00,439
Speaker 1: that there were k nine dogs present and the event

1226
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: went on. We went ahead online nevertheless, but there are

1227
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 1: just a lot of threat and pressure. I'm grateful to

1228
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 1: the institute for still going on with event, for supporting me,

1229
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: for continuing this event to the University of Chicago. The

1230
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,719
Speaker 1: whole entire community was very supportive, but there was also

1231
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 1: they received a lot of backlash and emails, and there

1232
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,560
Speaker 1: was a document circulating from an anonymous account online with

1233
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: a sample letter that they were urging just anyone to

1234
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: send this letter to the university, and emails of the

1235
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 1: staff were circulated online and they were getting bombarded with

1236
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: these emails and some calls. But I wasn't there, so

1237
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I'm not. I don't have any first hand

1238
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 1: reporting of this, but this the good work has been

1239
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 1: done by some student reporters of the university on the ground,

1240
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: and also I saw ABC Local and another local outlet

1241
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:59,719
Speaker 1: in Chicago reporting on the threat that the institute received.

1242
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,759
Speaker 1: It's always hard, I think for Americans to part especially

1243
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 1: Americans that are reasonably skeptical of the media, to pass

1244
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 1: through and figure out cut through the noise, figure out

1245
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: what actually is happening what they need to know. So, Nogar,

1246
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 1: what do you think Americans? You know that the average

1247
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 1: American voter needs to know about what is happening in

1248
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 1: Iran right now? What is the what are the big

1249
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 1: takeaways that people should be aware of from your perspective? Well,

1250
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: there is and this is I want to again connect

1251
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 1: it to this story later. This is a byproduct of

1252
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 1: the brutality that's happening in Iran, A massive amount of violence,

1253
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,679
Speaker 1: brutal violence being committed by the stake by security forces.

1254
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 1: Various different segments of the security forces. Human rights organizations

1255
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 1: are documenting does tends I think near overpassing one hundred

1256
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 1: totesters being killed by security forces, shooting with shotguns with

1257
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: live rounds, sometimes even shooting at people unarmed who are

1258
01:09:55,320 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 1: running away, so from behind largely peaceful settings, very out

1259
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: at settings. This is I think what I saw in

1260
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 1: the Human Rights Watch report recently, and just unlawful use

1261
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: of lethal force. It's something that the regime has done

1262
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,719
Speaker 1: in the past, but to crack down and suppressed protests

1263
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,320
Speaker 1: and dissent. In two thousand and nine mass protests, state

1264
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 1: used violence to crack down in twenty nineteen essentially an

1265
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 1: iron fist. They brought it down in a matter of days,

1266
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: if not weeks. There was a total internet blackout, hundreds

1267
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,720
Speaker 1: of protesters were killed, thousands were arrested, many of them

1268
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: given very harsh sentences. And this time around it's the same.

1269
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: We're seeing protesters being confronted by security forces, either picked

1270
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: up or killed. Some activists and journalists have been arrested.

1271
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: At least forty I believe journalists have been documented by

1272
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: the Committee to Protect Journalists who have been arrested, journalists,

1273
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 1: photo journalists who have been arrested. I've talked to some

1274
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: sources on the ground who're saying they're receiving threatening calls

1275
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:04,479
Speaker 1: if they're political activists, if they're journalists, to tone it down,

1276
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: to not protest, to not engage in the online conversation,

1277
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 1: and they're threatening them security forces with arrests. So it's

1278
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 1: a violent, violent and brutal crackdown. And the chants on

1279
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 1: the street are also against the entirety of the regime,

1280
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: the Supreme Leader, the Islamic Republic, the corrupt leadership with

1281
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,720
Speaker 1: underlying you know, political, economic, social, cultural grievances and at

1282
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 1: the core of it is also what I find significant

1283
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: is that it's a feminist uprising, it's a feminist revolution,

1284
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 1: with the main slogan being woman life, Freedom, and these

1285
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: iconic images of women and young girls leading many of

1286
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: these protests. And so earlier this week we had we

1287
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 1: had a guest on Satar Sadiki, who you were saying

1288
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:54,720
Speaker 1: that you're you're familiar with, who's more part of the

1289
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:58,640
Speaker 1: conservative wing, more of a regime supporter, though she's you know,

1290
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: was willing to beticle of the of the morality police.

1291
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 1: And the case that she was kind of making is

1292
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: that this is being overblown by the by the Western press,

1293
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 1: that you know that in a lot of parts of

1294
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:12,560
Speaker 1: the country, you're you're not even seeing, you know, significant

1295
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 1: protests as you walk around, as you walk around the city.

1296
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: And I'm curious from from basically that most women are

1297
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 1: satisfied with the sort of moral order, that some are

1298
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: that enough far that it's not that it's not you know,

1299
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 1: cut and dry, black and white issue. And so I'm curious,

1300
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 1: from your perspective, from the sources that you're talking to

1301
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 1: on the ground in Iran, what is the energy level

1302
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:36,720
Speaker 1: of the protest, what is what kind of how big

1303
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 1: are they relative to twenty nineteen? Are they bigger today

1304
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: than they were weeks ago? You know what, what's ther trajectory?

1305
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:47,680
Speaker 1: You know, how would you describe it? Well, this is

1306
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: seen by iron watchers, many of us obviously are doing

1307
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 1: it from a distance, but as a serious crisis for

1308
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 1: the regime in a decade, the most serious rounds of

1309
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 1: mass protest. It's spread to every single province in Iran,

1310
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:07,640
Speaker 1: dozens of cities, religious cities like Kom and Mashat. The

1311
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 1: protests were really huge in Kordistan, in Baluchastan, the ethnic

1312
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: areas where there's also lots of discrimination and suppression by

1313
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:21,280
Speaker 1: the state against those communities over the years. And also

1314
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:24,599
Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of women and girls essentially showing

1315
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 1: that they're fed up, that this is a watershed moment. Yes,

1316
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 1: there's also violent repression. There's a lot of brutality I

1317
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 1: hear from sources. There's a lot of security forces playing

1318
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 1: close forces on the streets and major cities, so it's

1319
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 1: difficult to sustain and grow. But we also continue to

1320
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 1: see images of protests coming more in pockets, but still

1321
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 1: across the country. So I think what these protests are

1322
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: showing again considering the level of brutality and the violence

1323
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:56,600
Speaker 1: which prevents a lot of people from essentially braving and

1324
01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 1: the bullets and risking their lives because those who are

1325
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 1: staying on the street are essentially risking their lives. But

1326
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 1: what this is showing us is the crisis of legitimacy.

1327
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 1: We were seeing this chance of noted Aslama Republic and

1328
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 1: noted the leaders and noted the system on social media.

1329
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 1: Also among a lot of Iranians who may not be

1330
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 1: present on the street at the moment, but they support

1331
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: the larger movement. We're also seeing acts of civil disobedience

1332
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:24,560
Speaker 1: by women. Women were taking off the hedgehob being in

1333
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 1: the public, ordinary citizens in a cafe. We have photos

1334
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:32,679
Speaker 1: published and videos coming out of a grandma crossing the street,

1335
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 1: a girl having breakfast at a cafe at all without

1336
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: the had job, which essentially is an act of civil disobedience.

1337
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 1: And also more high profile people. There was an actress

1338
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:44,679
Speaker 1: who appeared in a live interview inside Iran who appeared

1339
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,560
Speaker 1: in a live interview without the head job, which was unprecedented.

1340
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 1: There was an athlete and Lazare Kabi, a rock climber

1341
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: who appeared in an international competition officially on behalf of Iran,

1342
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: in an international competition without the HITDG job. So we're

1343
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 1: seeing a continuous of these pockets or protests, the legitimacy

1344
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:05,840
Speaker 1: crisis and they saying no to the system, to the

1345
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 1: repression to the Islamic Republic by a larger population who

1346
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 1: is expressing it in other ways online through the media.

1347
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:16,799
Speaker 1: And also these acts of individual civil disobedience by ordinary

1348
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:22,040
Speaker 1: citizens and also prominent figures, celebrities, actors, athletes, and also

1349
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,639
Speaker 1: of these these prominent figures who are joining the protests

1350
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: or showing solidarity and support to the protests, their say

1351
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 1: on their Instagram account, football stars, film stars, filmmakers who

1352
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 1: are posting messages about solidarity. That's also part of the

1353
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 1: bigger movement. They may not be able to go on

1354
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:40,960
Speaker 1: the street and join the protests, but when they post

1355
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 1: it to an Instagram with millions of followers, it gets

1356
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 1: shared and it goes viral, and that becomes part of

1357
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: the movement. And obviously, you know, nobody can sider snap

1358
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:53,400
Speaker 1: their fingers and expect Iron to become a Western style

1359
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:57,600
Speaker 1: democracy overnight. But Nigar, what are some you know, what

1360
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 1: are some concrete things that you think should happen in

1361
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 1: the future to satisfy some of the demands of people

1362
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 1: who are taking risks, clearly risks to their personal professional lives,

1363
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 1: to protest the regime. Well, the core slogan of this

1364
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 1: feminist revolution is women Life, Freedom, and I think it

1365
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:23,599
Speaker 1: encompasses the demands in three simple words. Women have been

1366
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: dealing with years of discrimination, of devil standards, of discriminatory laws,

1367
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 1: and of state sanctioned violence, of violent enforcement of these laws.

1368
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: It starts with a dress code, but it's all over

1369
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 1: in family law, marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, in personal

1370
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:44,599
Speaker 1: and professionalized women have to deal with this discrimination. It's

1371
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 1: also men, women and allies, women, young girls and allies

1372
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 1: who are coming out essentially finding no other avenue for

1373
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 1: political change. The Islamic Republic has essentially shown a very

1374
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,400
Speaker 1: rigid response and no other avenue for change for many

1375
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: of these people, millions of Iranias who think that the

1376
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:06,120
Speaker 1: street is the only avenue where they can pursue in

1377
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,759
Speaker 1: the form of these protests, risking their lives to demand change.

1378
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,719
Speaker 1: In the previous election, the presidential election, the last election

1379
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:18,719
Speaker 1: last year, all moderate and reformists candidates within the system,

1380
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:22,480
Speaker 1: So what's considered moderate and reformists within the system were disqualified,

1381
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 1: and the president is essentially seen by a big part

1382
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:29,160
Speaker 1: of the population as a shoeing candidate by the conservative

1383
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 1: who had the path cleared for him to become president.

1384
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:36,040
Speaker 1: The parliamentary election the year before that, similar moderate reformist

1385
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 1: candidates were disqualified. And essentially the core, as they call it,

1386
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 1: the hardcore of the regime and the more militaristic and

1387
01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:48,759
Speaker 1: conservative on hardline core of the regime is consolidating power,

1388
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 1: is taking over all aspects of power, isolating their own

1389
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,919
Speaker 1: their own systems, reformists and motors, and closing all avenues

1390
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 1: for change. So that's why you're hearing this chant of

1391
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 1: an end to the Islamic Republic and end to the

1392
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:07,160
Speaker 1: regime by people on the street. It's unclear how exactly

1393
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: that may materialize. I don't want to speculate one way

1394
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:11,519
Speaker 1: or the other. Is it going to happen, is it

1395
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: not going to happen. But you're just hearing this fed

1396
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:17,560
Speaker 1: up tone from a lot of Iranians that it's not

1397
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 1: just the mandatory hit job, it's not just the morality

1398
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,719
Speaker 1: because sometimes even Iranians. My own friends watch my interviews

1399
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: and they think that I'm only talking about these issues

1400
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:30,120
Speaker 1: as opposed to them wanting it change to the entire system.

1401
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 1: That's that's necessarily not the not the discourse here. It's

1402
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: difficult to speculate. I don't want to speculate as far

1403
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 1: as a crystal ball of what will happen. But we're

1404
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:41,679
Speaker 1: seeing this as a watershed moment for many Iranians demanding

1405
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:43,840
Speaker 1: an end to the entirety of this thing. They see

1406
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 1: it as a corrupt government, repressive a state, and also

1407
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 1: they see no other avenues for political change. And if

1408
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: the repression has brought the protests into just pockets in

1409
01:18:57,479 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 1: various areas, you know, there's any of demiology as you know,

1410
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,080
Speaker 1: to protests, and they feed off of each other. The

1411
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 1: bigger they get, the more the more people then can

1412
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 1: join them because there's there ends up being some kind

1413
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:12,559
Speaker 1: of anonymity and protection in a large crowd. If you're

1414
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 1: talking about smaller pockets of protests, then each individual person

1415
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 1: who goes out is much more vulnerable. You know, it's

1416
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 1: it's it's a it takes it takes more courage to join,

1417
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 1: you know, some twenty twenty people sometimes than it does

1418
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: to join two hundred thousand people. And so what what's

1419
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 1: what's been the effect on people who were kind of

1420
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:33,679
Speaker 1: who feel this way about the regime and have felt

1421
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 1: this way and we're happy to join, you know, when

1422
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:38,679
Speaker 1: when they're when there are large crowds. What's the effect

1423
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 1: on people like that now that the crowds are getting smaller, Well,

1424
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 1: it certainly has that fear effect, as you said, when

1425
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 1: people see someone next to them killed or shot or arrested,

1426
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 1: it does have that impact. Also, we're seeing again a

1427
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:55,640
Speaker 1: lot of courage and bravery, so I want to applaud that.

1428
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm in awe of the courage of these young girls,

1429
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:01,559
Speaker 1: school girls. I saw a video of the elementary school girls,

1430
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 1: three elementary school girls or running down the street chanting women, life,

1431
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: freedom and waving their scarf up in the air, so

1432
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:12,720
Speaker 1: they took it off high schoolers. The bravery has been incredible,

1433
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:15,760
Speaker 1: but also the brutality has that impact. I also spoke

1434
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 1: to some sources on the ground who told me they've

1435
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 1: heard of ordinary protesters who were identified in protests either

1436
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 1: by security forces or through images the filming of their

1437
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: of their themselves, and then they had their homes rated

1438
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:35,640
Speaker 1: overnight and arrested. So it's not only activists, it's not

1439
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:39,960
Speaker 1: only prominent people. It's also ordinary protesters, anybody that shows

1440
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:42,720
Speaker 1: any form of leadership, even in a small setting. So

1441
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:46,000
Speaker 1: I heard about this one protester who was an ordinary person,

1442
01:20:46,080 --> 01:20:48,680
Speaker 1: but it seemed like she was leading the chant in

1443
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:51,640
Speaker 1: one setting of like a dozen people around, And this

1444
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 1: gets picked up in the images and then the home

1445
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,439
Speaker 1: is rated at night and the person is arrested. So

1446
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 1: they're essentially trying to send them as also to the rest,

1447
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:04,240
Speaker 1: to the rest of the population and even to the

1448
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:06,760
Speaker 1: rest of the protesters to stop this that were coming

1449
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:09,560
Speaker 1: after you, that we have the capacity to identify you,

1450
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 1: and you know the sources and the forces. And what

1451
01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 1: we saw in twenty nineteen was an immediate crushing of

1452
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 1: these protests. This time around, it hasn't been as immediate.

1453
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 1: And my reading and some other Iran analysts and reporting

1454
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:27,720
Speaker 1: that was also reporting in the New York Times is

1455
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 1: that not the entire force has not been deployed yet,

1456
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 1: So this could get even worse than this, more brutal,

1457
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 1: more violent, and it has the effect of essentially it

1458
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 1: is either you pick people up, you wresk them or

1459
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 1: you threaten them and send them back home. So it

1460
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 1: does have that arrest. It did get the protests did

1461
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 1: get crushed in twenty nineteen, even though there were mass

1462
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:52,040
Speaker 1: protests across the country. But the problem is when the

1463
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: grievance is not addressed, when the demands are not addressed,

1464
01:21:55,160 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 1: be it economic, political, social, cultural, just the hitdejob moralgy

1465
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:02,840
Speaker 1: police or the entirety of the system. Even if you

1466
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 1: send people back home, the next time around, they're going

1467
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 1: to come back with those grievances and an added layer.

1468
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 1: So in twenty nineteen was the spark was an increase

1469
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 1: in fuel crisis. This time was the death and custody

1470
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:19,880
Speaker 1: of this young woman. The time before that was an election.

1471
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:26,200
Speaker 1: There have been teachers joining lawyers, oil workers, laborers, university students,

1472
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:29,680
Speaker 1: each with their own pockets of grievances, but also this

1473
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:34,960
Speaker 1: intersectional community coming together with a lot of overlap and niggar.

1474
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 1: Where can people follow your journalism and follow your work?

1475
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 1: I have a website where I post I'm an independent journalist,

1476
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 1: so I do a lot of interviews like this I

1477
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:48,720
Speaker 1: posted on my website on Nega Mortazavi. I also have

1478
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:53,000
Speaker 1: a podcast I host and edit the Iran Podcast, where

1479
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:57,080
Speaker 1: we do weekly conversations about Iran Iranian affairs that go

1480
01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 1: beyond just the headlines and the mainstream media and have

1481
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,840
Speaker 1: deeper conversations with experts. I'm also very active on Twitter.

1482
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 1: Not on other social media, I have some presence, but

1483
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:09,439
Speaker 1: on Twitter is my main place where I post my work,

1484
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:12,720
Speaker 1: my interviews, and also my podcasts. Sounds great and the

1485
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,560
Speaker 1: gar has written for the intercept too. There you go.

1486
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:18,880
Speaker 1: I have well, Niga. Thank you so much for your

1487
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:21,519
Speaker 1: time and for your insights this morning. Thank you for

1488
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,800
Speaker 1: having me. Absolutely we appreciate it. All right, that'll do

1489
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:28,320
Speaker 1: it for this Counterpoints Friday. That's right, thank you, Thank

1490
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:30,360
Speaker 1: you everybody for sticking around. Yeap. We hope you have

1491
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: a great weekend. Enjoy the wonderful fall weather. Hopefully it's

1492
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 1: nice where you are, and we'll see you back here

1493
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 1: next Friday, Counterpoints Friday. See you then,