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Speaker 1: One fall evening in nineteen ninety five, Mary Johnson went

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Speaker 1: to bed and the dormitory of the MC convent in Sangregorio, Rome.

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Speaker 2: Went to bed closed my eyes had this dream where

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing a.

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Speaker 1: Potter at a wheel.

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Speaker 2: She's just there humming as she's forming disclay. The wheel turns.

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Speaker 2: I noticed that she's forming these little figurines and they're

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Speaker 2: various people. And when she finishes them, then she breathes

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Speaker 2: life into them and they come alive and they look

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Speaker 2: like people.

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Speaker 1: In the dream, the floor of the studio opens up.

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Speaker 1: Mary can see the world below.

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Speaker 2: She lifts that little figure up in her hands and

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Speaker 2: places it wherever.

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Speaker 1: She breathes life into a figure and sets it down

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Speaker 1: on a busy street in Hong Kong. She puts another

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Speaker 1: one in a gray office, one in a rainforest, one

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen of a small house. Then the potter

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Speaker 1: forms another figure. This one has dimples and curly hair.

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Speaker 1: The potter pulls out tiny glasses from her overalls and

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Speaker 1: balances them on the figurines nose. She takes a deep breath.

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Speaker 2: When she breathes life into this clay figure that she's created.

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Speaker 2: I recognize that that's me. What I'm really waiting to

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Speaker 2: see is where is she gonna put me? And so

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Speaker 2: she's looking me over, turning me this way and that,

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Speaker 2: and then she speaks for the first time in the dream,

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Speaker 2: and she says, this one, this one I like so

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Speaker 2: much that I'm going to keep her, oh for myself.

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Speaker 2: And she puts me on this high shelf in her studio,

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Speaker 2: farway from everything and everyone. And I'm so mad at her.

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Speaker 2: I'm stomping my little figurine feet and I'm shaking my

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Speaker 2: fist at her, and I'm shouting from my little shelf

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Speaker 2: up there, let me down.

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Speaker 1: But the potter is already turned back to the wheel.

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Speaker 1: She ignores Mary. She starts to pedal, and she doesn't stop.

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Speaker 1: The wheel turns and turns and turns from a cocoa

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Speaker 1: punch and iHeartRadio. This is the turning I'm Erica lants

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Speaker 1: Part eight Saint of Darkness.

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Speaker 2: At a certain point, I was just really really exhausted,

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Speaker 2: physically ted, intellectually finished, and I went to my superior

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Speaker 2: and I said, I just need a break. I can't

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Speaker 2: take this anymore. I'm really kind of scared what's going

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Speaker 2: to happen to me? She could see that. She knew that,

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Speaker 2: and she was a very kind persons Sister Dominica, and

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Speaker 2: she said, well, the Superiors are having a retreat. Let

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Speaker 2: me see if I can get you permission to go

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Speaker 2: on that retreat.

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Speaker 1: She did get permission. Mary would have some time off

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Speaker 1: for prayer and reflection. On the retreat, she met a priest.

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Speaker 1: He was just over forty years old. He had an

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Speaker 1: easy smile, and something about his talks at the retreat

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Speaker 1: caught Mary's attention. He spoke with.

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Speaker 2: So much compassion and so much humanity, and so much

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Speaker 2: insight into the Gospels.

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Speaker 1: We aren't using his real name. Mary calls him Father Tom.

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Speaker 2: Father Tom was a person that everybody kind of felt

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Speaker 2: at ease around. He had this easygoing attitude. I once

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Speaker 2: heard another priest describe him as the only priest that

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Speaker 2: he knew who really had no ego. He knew how

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Speaker 2: to listen.

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Speaker 1: Father Tom would be the one to take Mary's general

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Speaker 1: confession this year. That's her annual review of faith and conscience.

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Speaker 1: Before she knelt for her confession, Mary thought back. It

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Speaker 1: had been a turbulent year. She'd felt overwhelmed with her workload,

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Speaker 1: and there had been that incident with Niobe, the sister

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Speaker 1: who said I love you, whom Mary loved back, but

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Speaker 1: who would eventually pressure Mary to get physical and at

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Speaker 1: times when she specifically said no. When Mary met Father Tom,

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Speaker 1: her relationship with Niobi hadn't turned sour yet. Mary asked

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Speaker 1: Niobe to hold her and they had embraced for the

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Speaker 1: first time. Now, she had this nagging feeling guilt. Before

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Speaker 1: she started her confession, she thought about all the ways

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Speaker 1: she'd failed her vows. Then she knelt and made the

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Speaker 1: sign of the Cross. He spoke through the screen, bless me, Father,

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Speaker 1: for I have sinned. First, she listed her usual confessions,

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Speaker 1: putting her own needs above others, failing to serve with

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Speaker 1: a generous heart. But at the end she added.

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Speaker 2: I've bent the rules, especially by showing affection and inappropriate ways.

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Speaker 2: I hoped he wasn't going to ask for details, but

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Speaker 2: instead what he did is he said, you got to

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Speaker 2: be careful to balance the love of others with love

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Speaker 2: of yourself. Didn't Jesus say love your neighbor as yourself,

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Speaker 2: So shouldn't you be loving yourself. It's not one or

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Speaker 2: the other.

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Speaker 1: You have to do both.

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Speaker 2: And then he said the words that really through me,

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Speaker 2: he said, you're just as worthy of having your needs

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Speaker 2: met as anyone else is, and that just really kind

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Speaker 2: of violated the whole you know, missionary of charity life

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Speaker 2: is to serve others, forget yourself, and we're always told that,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not supposed to think about ourselves even and

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Speaker 2: I thought, wow, okay, so he went straight by the

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Speaker 2: inappropriate affection thing and went to that place inside where

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Speaker 2: I wasn't loving myself.

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Speaker 1: Mary returned to the convent, and a year later she

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Speaker 1: became Niobe's tersion mistress, preparing her for final vows. You

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Speaker 1: remember what happened, Mary says she told Niobi the relationship

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Speaker 1: needed to change. As her mistress, it could no longer continue.

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Speaker 1: But Niobi didn't stop. She requested to have a bed

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Speaker 1: by Mary's and then at night she'd reach over, unbutton

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Speaker 1: Mary's night dress and grove her or One time after

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Speaker 1: rule class, Naobi tried to unlace her bodice to make

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Speaker 1: her stop. Mary says she kicked Niobe's shins. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, Mary had other Turtian sisters to take care of.

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Speaker 1: She was in charge of rule class, and the Tertians

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Speaker 1: had a lot of questions for her. Questions about experiences

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Speaker 1: they'd had admissions where they worked with people of other

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Speaker 1: religions or at orphanages with large groups of children, situations

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Speaker 1: more complicated than Mary felt she'd ever faced. She wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure how to navigate at all. But what really seemed

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Speaker 1: to help was Father Tom. Even though Father Tom was

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Speaker 1: her confessor and a priest, Mary felt a mutual respect.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the two of them had very different roles.

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Speaker 1: Father Tom had more freedom and more power. Women can't

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Speaker 1: become priests in the Catholic Church, and actually the Pope

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Speaker 1: recently doubled down on this rule and his new canon

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Speaker 1: law roll out in twenty twenty one, Pope Francis declared

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Speaker 1: that anyone who attempts to ordain a woman will be

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Speaker 1: automatically excommunicated along with the woman.

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Speaker 2: The very first time that I went to confession to

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Speaker 2: Tom as my regular confessor, he said, I just want

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Speaker 2: you to know if women could be priests, you're the

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Speaker 2: one I would make my confession too. I was like, okay, okay.

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Speaker 2: So this acknowledgment from the beginning that though there is

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Speaker 2: this power dynamic there, we are both equals in the

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Speaker 2: sense of being spiritual seekers with some sort of wisdom

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Speaker 2: to share.

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Speaker 1: Father Tom came to the convent every week for the

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Speaker 1: sister's confessions. As Churchian mistress, Mary always went last. This

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Speaker 1: meant she could stay as long as she liked, and

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Speaker 1: they talked. She liked talking to him, she found solace

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Speaker 1: in it. Father Tom was educated and smart, and he

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Speaker 1: knew the Gospels in this deep, unusual way. He spoke

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Speaker 1: of God as love. They discussed religion and their spiritual journeys.

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Speaker 1: When Mary struggled with the sisters, he smuggled in a

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Speaker 1: pop psychology book for her since MC reading is so controlled,

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Speaker 1: and she could talk to him about Naobi.

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Speaker 2: He knew everything all about that were going on inside,

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Speaker 2: and I was very happy that I didn't have to

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Speaker 2: hide from him. I could show him everything that I

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Speaker 2: was going through and I didn't feel judged, and he

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Speaker 2: would give me good advice about how to handle things.

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Speaker 2: So I could tell Father Tom that I know I'm

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Speaker 2: not supposed to let anybody touch me, but it just

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Speaker 2: feels so good, and I don't know's it's the same

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Speaker 2: kind of feeling I get when I have a good

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Speaker 2: feeling in prayer, when I feel this sort of human

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Speaker 2: closeness and distouch, and you wouldn't give a response that

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Speaker 2: I might expect from a priest to say no. You know,

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Speaker 2: human touch can be very healing. Of course it feels

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Speaker 2: like that, and you would always return it, you know,

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Speaker 2: more than to the rules, you'd turn.

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Speaker 1: It to the gospel.

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Speaker 2: Jesus says, love as I have loved.

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Speaker 1: To Soon Thursday confessions turned into post confession heart to hearts.

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Speaker 1: Father Tom would drink coffee and they talked as weeks past.

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Speaker 1: She stayed later and later, finally she could be with

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Speaker 1: someone who accepted her as she was. She says, I

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Speaker 1: gave her courage to go out and deal with the

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Speaker 1: problems she faced.

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Speaker 2: There was one Thursday when I went to confession and

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Speaker 2: I was reaching my wits end, basically, And as I confessed,

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Speaker 2: it's like I told Father Tom all of the things

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Speaker 2: I was doing wrong, all of the ways I was failing,

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Speaker 2: and he says to me, but you're doing your best.

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Speaker 2: You don't need to try so hard. Concentrate on what's important.

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Speaker 2: Let the rest of it slide. And those words just

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Speaker 2: the tears they fell down my face. I just started

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Speaker 2: crying and crying because he was being so kind to me,

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Speaker 2: and I wasn't used to that wasn't kind to myself.

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Speaker 2: Others weren't kind to me. It was just like and

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Speaker 2: here he was just so kind. And that day instead

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Speaker 2: of putting his hands just above my head when he

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Speaker 2: gave me absolution and a blessing, he put his hands

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Speaker 2: on my head and said that prayer. And when he

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Speaker 2: did that, I just I just felt like I was

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Speaker 2: melting inside, just this sense of this love flowing from

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Speaker 2: his hands through me. One day I went and I

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Speaker 2: stood behind his chair and I just put my hand

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Speaker 2: on his shoulder and tried to channel that love from

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Speaker 2: my hand through him the way he had done for me.

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Speaker 2: At one point, Father Tom said, I just feel it

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Speaker 2: really strange that you keep calling me father. Why didn't

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Speaker 2: you just call me Tom? And I asked him to

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Speaker 2: call me Mary, not sister Donata. And we had been

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Speaker 2: talking to each other as Tom and Mary for a while.

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Speaker 2: Whenever we would have our weekly meetings after all the

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Speaker 2: other sisters had gone to confession, I would sometimes put

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Speaker 2: my hand on his shoulder or take his hand in

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Speaker 2: my hand, and he'd sometimes respond by putting his hand

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Speaker 2: on my knee or some similar sort of touch. But

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Speaker 2: he never started he never initiated in those circumstances. It's

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Speaker 2: like sitting opposite him and I'm looking into his eyes,

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Speaker 2: and I know how we have both been trying so

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Speaker 2: hard to kind of keep our hands to ourselves. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I noticed that sometimes his hands would perspire with I

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Speaker 2: don't know, the effort to keep them to himself, and

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Speaker 2: he'd be like, oh, And so I just told him

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Speaker 2: one day he said, you know, if you ever want

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Speaker 2: to take my hands first, that's okay with me. And

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Speaker 2: he told me, I've been waiting for that, and I

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Speaker 2: told him, I know you have. And from that time on,

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Speaker 2: I didn't always have to take the first step.

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Speaker 3: Cheerfulness and joy have to come from within, don't they.

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Speaker 3: I suppose that there is that fake it till you

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Speaker 3: make it, that if you pretend to be happy, you

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Speaker 3: will eventually be happy. I think Mother Teresa was a

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Speaker 3: past master that she always was smiling.

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Speaker 1: Collecte Livermore, the sister from Australia, had been struggling with

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Speaker 1: the tension between what her conscience was telling her and

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Speaker 1: what her superiors told her. She didn't like that she'd

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Speaker 1: been directed not to follow her inner compass. By nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty her eighth year in the MCS, Collette felt dull

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Speaker 1: and empty and emotionless, and to her, it didn't feel

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Speaker 1: like peaceful detachment. She says, it felt like the apathy

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Speaker 1: of depression. She decided to go home.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't the first time it had occurred to me,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, I was still mentally controlled by the order

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Speaker 3: and by the all the religious stuff about God's will

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Speaker 3: and Allette.

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Speaker 1: Collette knew she wanted to leave the Order and her vocation.

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Speaker 1: It was her last chance before final profession her lifelong vows.

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Speaker 1: She was stationed in Kolcutta at the time, so she

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Speaker 1: asked to meet Mother Teresa for her general permission. That's

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Speaker 1: a monthly ritual where sisters ask for permission to use

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Speaker 1: any belonging like toothbrushes, their prayer books because technically they

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Speaker 1: don't own anything themselves. They also speak their faults and

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Speaker 1: their assigned penances.

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Speaker 3: So you go in the room, you kneel down, you

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Speaker 3: don't look in your eyes. You had to kiss the floor.

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Speaker 3: They used to say, you have to put your head

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Speaker 3: down to the floor.

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Speaker 1: As Collette knelt in front of Mother Teresa, she spoke

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Speaker 1: her faults as usual, and then she stayed there.

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Speaker 3: I was still kneeling. I basically told mother that I

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Speaker 3: couldn't stand the way we treated each other, the way

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Speaker 3: we treated the poor, the way we were moved around.

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Speaker 1: And she told Mother Teresa she'd seen sisters hit the

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Speaker 1: poor they were serving out of anger. When she tried

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Speaker 1: to help people on the street. She was chastised. This

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Speaker 1: life wasn't for her.

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Speaker 3: She was singularly unimpressed.

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Speaker 1: Collette says Mother Teresa said, look me in the eye.

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Speaker 1: I telled you, sister, and I would not tell you

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Speaker 1: a lie. You have a vocation to be a missionary

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Speaker 1: of charity. Coleetzay's mother, Teresa spoke with a dogmatic certainty

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Speaker 1: that she seemed to have no empathy for a sister

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Speaker 1: who struggled to believe. She told Colette she had no doubts.

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Speaker 1: She said, Colute's desire to leave was the devil's temptation.

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Speaker 3: The devil pretending as an angel of light, and it

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Speaker 3: was pride. I forbid you to think like this. She

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Speaker 3: told me to take the discipline.

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Speaker 1: Take it harder than usual.

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Speaker 3: You know, the strange habit of hitting yourself with a

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Speaker 3: knotted rope.

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Speaker 1: And she told Collette not to judge the sisters who

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Speaker 1: were angry or violent. Those same sisters, she explained, might

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Speaker 1: be feeling just as much pain and guilt for what

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Speaker 1: they'd done.

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Speaker 3: Don't judge you, maybe as displeasing to God with your

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Speaker 3: judgmental atitude as the angry sister is.

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Speaker 1: Then she told Collette, if you think like this, you

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Speaker 1: must go to confession and say I was disobedient and judgmental.

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Speaker 1: You must tell yourself. Mother has forbidden me to think this.

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Speaker 1: And then she told Collette a story.

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Speaker 3: The story of a mother who said that she'd rather

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Speaker 3: her daughter come out of the convent in a coffin

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Speaker 3: than to leave then be unfaithful to her veils.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how did it feel to hear her say

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Speaker 1: these things to you?

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Speaker 3: She's the saint, I'm the sinner. She must be right. Ah, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think I felt a bit despairing, like I was

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Speaker 3: trapped and I couldn't get out. But I could have

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Speaker 3: got out if I believed in myself more. But that's

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Speaker 3: the trouble. Somehow my inner self, my confidence, my belief

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Speaker 3: in myself, which and the truth of my own thoughts,

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Speaker 3: had been somehow undermined. I should have stood up and said, look,

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Speaker 3: mother had enough I'm not going to hit myself. I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to go to confession. I'm going I'd like

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Speaker 3: you to arrange for me to leave. I need to leave,

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Speaker 3: but somehow I couldn't seem to. I just knelt there

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Speaker 3: until she dismissed me.

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Speaker 1: Cause that had spent years learning to obey, and that's

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Speaker 1: what she did. Little did she know that the very

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Speaker 1: woman who convinced her to stay, who told her to

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Speaker 1: whip herself harder, who told her to stick to her vows,

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Speaker 1: was going through a hidden darkness of her own. When

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Speaker 1: Mother Teresa died in nineteen ninety seven, Father Brian Kladichak

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Speaker 1: knew what to do. He was ready to start his

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Speaker 1: research for her beatification and canonization process. He would be

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Speaker 1: her postulator for sainthood.

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Speaker 4: When we began the cause, one of the first things

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Speaker 4: we do is collect the documents.

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Speaker 1: You've heard from Father Brian before. He's a priest in

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Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity.

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Speaker 4: I'm serving now as what we call Superior General. That

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Speaker 4: means like the CEO if you want, of the Father Congregation.

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Speaker 1: So he started looking for anything he could find about

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Speaker 1: Mother Teresa, and that's when he discovered the letters.

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Speaker 4: The letters were in the archives of the Archbishop's house

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Speaker 4: in Calcutta.

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Speaker 1: They were letters hidden from public view, and if Mother

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Speaker 1: Teresa had her way, they wouldn't exist.

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Speaker 4: When the Teresa kept insisting that they'd be destroyed.

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Speaker 1: But they weren't destroyed. The men she wrote to a

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Speaker 1: handful of confessors saved the letters. They felt they had

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Speaker 1: to keep these texts as they revealed the depth of

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Speaker 1: her vocation.

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Speaker 4: They had a sense that these were very special, sacred

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Speaker 4: even because there were her very personal, intimate things that

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Speaker 4: we had no idea.

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Speaker 1: Father Brian knew how special these papers.

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Speaker 4: Were, and I just didn't want to read them just

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 1: So when Father Brian got them, he took them to

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Speaker 1: a chapel and then he started to read through the papers.

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Speaker 1: Mother Teresa to Father nuoner undated now Father, since forty

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Speaker 1: nine or fifty. This terrible sense of loss, this untold darkness,

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Speaker 1: this loneliness, this continual longing for God which gives me

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Speaker 1: that pain deep down in my heart. The place of

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Speaker 1: God and my soul is blank. He does not want me,

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Speaker 1: He is not there. Sometimes I just hear my own

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Speaker 1: heart cry out my God, and nothing else comes. The

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Speaker 1: torture and pain I can't explain. Mother Teresa's darkness seemed

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Speaker 1: to begin almost immediately after she founded the Missionaries of Charity.

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Speaker 1: As Father Brian kept reading, he watched years past in

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Speaker 1: Mother Teresa's life. He read references to events he recognized,

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Speaker 1: but she always came back to the darkness. In one letter,

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Speaker 1: she described her smile as a cloak which covers a

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Speaker 1: multitude of pains. In another, she says, I don't believe

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Speaker 1: I have a soul. There's nothing in me. Reading those

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Speaker 1: letters in the chapel, Father Brian was shocked. He had

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Speaker 1: no idea Mother Teresa had experienced decades of darkness and misery.

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Speaker 1: She wrote, so many unanswered questions live within me. I'm

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Speaker 1: afraid to uncover them because of the blasphemy. If there'd

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Speaker 1: be God, please forgive me. When I read these letters,

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Speaker 1: I felt such strong echoes of everything I've heard from

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Speaker 1: the former nuns i'd interviewed, like Mary and Colette. How

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Speaker 1: many felt told by despair and submission. How many felt

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Speaker 1: twisted and torn and alone. I get the sense that

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Speaker 1: a lot of them felt like impostors, like everyone else

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Speaker 1: was doing better than they did. But Mother Teresa felt

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Speaker 1: that too.

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Speaker 4: I see my sister's day seem to be so close

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Speaker 4: to Jesus and Mino, you might think if you were

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Speaker 4: a wife in some similar situation in your husband, you're

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Speaker 4: really passionately in love and and he's like, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: seem to care at all, it would be extremely difficult.

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Speaker 1: I think some people hearing this might say, you know,

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Speaker 1: this example of a husband ignoring you, that doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like a healthy relationship.

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Speaker 4: No, yes, it very sounds difficult. Yeah. But then the

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Speaker 4: other dimension in this is what we you know, we

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Speaker 4: refer to as the mystery of the Cross in our

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Speaker 4: Christian understanding. As strange as it might seem, the closer

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Speaker 4: you get to Jesus, the more you're going to suffer.

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Speaker 4: That's the whole experience of the saints.

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Speaker 1: In a letter to Mother Teresa, one of her confessors

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Speaker 1: suggested another interpretation of the emptiness. She felt the fact

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Speaker 1: that she couldn't feel God anymore wasn't a sign that

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Speaker 1: God had left her. Instead, it was part of a

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Speaker 1: mystical process experienced by some saints, something called the dark

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Speaker 1: Knight of the soul. It's part of a tradition in

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Speaker 1: Catholic spirituality, a process of purification that many saints and

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Speaker 1: mystics go through one that ultimately brings them closer to God,

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Speaker 1: but involves a lot of pain and suffering along the way.

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Speaker 1: They become a plaything in God's hand, as Mother Teresa

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Speaker 1: would say, quoting Saint Terrez, like a little ball of

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Speaker 1: no value, she wrote, that could be thrown on the ground,

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Speaker 1: kicked about, pierced, left in a corner, or pressed to

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Speaker 1: Jesus's heart just as it might please him. Part of

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Speaker 1: the dark night of the soul involves losing pleasure in

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Speaker 1: the senses, leading to a feeling of pain, dryness, and emptiness.

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Speaker 1: Another part of it involves feeling abandoned by God.

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Speaker 4: Hey, there's so much egoism in ourselves, you know, so

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Speaker 4: much of self is very painful to go through that purification.

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Speaker 1: Mother Teresa wrote, He has taken all, and I think

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Speaker 1: he has destroyed everything in me. The only thing that

379
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Speaker 1: keeps me on the surface is obedience. But the idea

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Speaker 1: that Mother Teresa's deep loneliness meant she was joining in

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Speaker 1: Christ's passion that brought her comfort. Feeling farther from God

382
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Speaker 1: and his love meant she was growing more intimate with

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Speaker 1: him after all. From the beginning she wrote, I want

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Speaker 1: to become a real slave of our lady, to drink

385
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Speaker 1: only from his chalice of pain. Mother Teresa once said

386
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Speaker 1: there are two kinds of poverty, material poverty, or someone

387
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Speaker 1: is hungry for a loaf of bread, and then an

388
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Speaker 1: even greater poverty, spiritual poverty, to be unloved. Here she

389
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Speaker 1: is on RTE in Ireland in nineteen seventy four, and.

390
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Speaker 5: That terrible loneliness and being unwanted and loved, being abandoned

391
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Speaker 5: by everybody, even in our own homes. We may have

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Speaker 5: somebody who is handicapped like that, and nobody takes any notice.

393
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Speaker 5: Nobody even recognizes that there is this child, this man,

394
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Speaker 5: this woman, who is hungry for love, hungry to be recognized,

395
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Speaker 5: to accept with respect and love. The person.

396
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Speaker 1: Hearing her say the greatest poverty is to feel unloved.

397
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Speaker 1: She was speaking from experience.

398
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Speaker 4: Mm hmm exactly. She was sharing insolidarity with the other

399
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Speaker 4: interior poverty as well.

400
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Speaker 6: She would say, if ever I will be a saint,

401
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 6: meaning be declared a saint, she said, I will be

402
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 6: the saint of darkness of those in darkness, And we

403
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 6: didn't know what she meant.

404
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Speaker 1: This is sister Kathleen Hughes, the consecrated virgin who's a

405
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Speaker 1: former missionary of charity.

406
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Speaker 6: The poor, the rejected, those who feel their life is

407
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 6: worth nothing. You know, those in darkness, people who are

408
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 6: driven to suicide or drug addiction and have failed in

409
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 6: some way, maybe with their parents or in life. And

410
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 6: she said, I will be I will be like their faint.

411
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Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Father Brian published Mother Teresa's

412
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Speaker 1: letters and a book he called Come Be My Light.

413
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Speaker 1: One thing that struck me when I read it is

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Speaker 1: that this sounds a lot like depression. Her letters just

415
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: seem so sad and alone. Father Brian says he looked

416
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Speaker 1: into it. He thinks there's a difference between a dark

417
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: Knight of the soul and depression. And actually a number

418
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: of people have argued for differences between the two. They

419
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: say the symptoms aren't the same, for example, that depression

420
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: spans a lot of different domains of life, while the

421
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: dark Knight is spiritual, focused on a relationship with God.

422
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Speaker 1: But I can't help but think about the fact that

423
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 1: depression looks different for different people. Whatever lens you want

424
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Speaker 1: to look at it through, one thing is clear. She

425
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: suffered a lot. Mother Teresa got one short respite in

426
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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight. For months she felt that she was

427
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: pleasing Jesus again. But other than that one month, Mother

428
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: Teresa experienced the dark night of the soul for the

429
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: rest of her life, almost fifty years. When Mother Teresa's

430
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Speaker 1: letters started being published, the story of her darkness shocked

431
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: the world. But of course the people that impacted the

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Speaker 1: most were the.

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Speaker 4: Sisters in Calcutta. When I was reading some of these

434
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 4: letters for the sisters, they were just like, you know,

435
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 4: wide eyed and crying.

436
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 6: I mean, it was a shock.

437
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: When Sister Kathleen heard the news, she knew she'd need

438
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: some serious time to process the letters.

439
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 6: As she read them, I decided I would take it

440
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 6: as a kind of a retreat, you know, like I

441
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 6: would spend these days in prayer. And I ended up

442
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 6: on the floor sobbing, sobbing because I kept seeing her face,

443
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 6: that stretched, tired, exhausted face. If you read about it

444
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 6: in the papers, people were saying, oh, she was a

445
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 6: fake and all that. You know, it was interpreted in

446
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 6: all kinds of absurd ways that the world has no concept.

447
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 6: And Sister Normala, who was her successor, called me and

448
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 6: she was telling me, sister Kathleen, we had no idea,

449
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 6: and nobody had any idea. Mother never told us, and

450
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 6: she suffered all of this, And that also in itself

451
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 6: is heroic. It is heroic that she never she never

452
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 6: spoke about it. You know, she kept that secret because

453
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 6: she might have scandalized some sisters or or weakened their faith. Well,

454
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 6: how can she tell us that that? It is as

455
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 6: though God isn't there? And it showed how great a

456
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 6: person she was, how great a follower of Christ, how

457
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 6: a woman you know, a missionary? No wonder people were

458
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 6: moved by her and drawn to her, you know, because

459
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 6: she was like Christ on the cross, saying, my God,

460
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 6: My God, why have you forsaken.

461
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 7: Me for me? I only found that out after I

462
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 7: left the order. Every time she talked to us, she

463
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 7: never projected.

464
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: That this is Sue Eber. She and her sister Joan

465
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: both joined the MCS. Sue was a superior at the

466
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: San Francisco Aids Hospice in the nineties.

467
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 7: I always think back if there would have been an

468
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 7: openness of her saying it is hard, and you know

469
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 7: you do, you struggle, and you who knows where people

470
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 7: would be? But when you come to find out that

471
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 7: that which you felt was being portrayed actually was completely

472
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 7: the opposite. I went through a period of time of

473
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 7: feeling very betrayed by her, and then I had to

474
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 7: process that all for myself.

475
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: I was yes, I was quite elated for some strange reason.

476
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: This is Collete Livermore.

477
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: Again, she was a human being. She wasn't this saint

478
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 3: on a pedestal that she struggled through all this. I

479
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: just felt vindicated somehow, And I don't understand why, how

480
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: she could truthfully tell me she didn't have any doubt.

481
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: Collet's initial reaction didn't last, though, because of course it

482
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: didn't make her happy to hear about this kind of pain.

483
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: I remember she told us in a talk once that

484
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: she went under a pradesh in a huge flood and

485
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: there were bodies everywhere. I got a hint then that

486
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: she couldn't work it out. She said, God's obviously trying

487
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: to tell us something, but I don't know what he's saying.

488
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: And like she confronted suffering very regularly, I could feel

489
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: a struggle in the anguish. She said her cheerfulness was

490
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 3: just a cloak for a very deep loneliness, and I

491
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: think the highest value in the world is love and relationships,

492
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: and she'd set up a system where you couldn't get

493
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: any joy from each other. I think that made people

494
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: psychologically unwell. And so when I knew she'd been through

495
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: all this, I couldn't understand why it didn't change her

496
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 3: her pattern, you know, the template that she used to

497
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 3: run the order. But she just thought blocked it, like

498
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: she told me to, you know, just suppressed anything as

499
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: a temptation. She obviously went through hell. I wish I

500
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 3: could have talked to her like a human being, like

501
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 3: a friend or a real person.

502
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: So do I. But as people so often point out,

503
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: Mother Teresa was of another time, with another sense of

504
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: what was appropriate.

505
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: I was definitely not shocked, because I suspected for quite

506
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: a while that she had more interior suffering than she

507
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: led on.

508
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: It also doesn't surprise Mary Johnson that Mother Teresa kept

509
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: her dark Knight of the Soul a secret. She wasn't

510
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: going to go around talking about her relationship with Jesus.

511
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: It would be like asking a woman to explain what

512
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: her most intimate experiences with her husband were like.

513
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: But she says she worries about the message a secret

514
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: like this sins that when a sister is depressed or suffering,

515
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: Mother Teres's dark knight could be used as a reason

516
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: not to get help, a sign that she should have

517
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: to suffer. It might even be instructed from above. Instead

518
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: of feeling a dark knight of the soul, Mary Johnson

519
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: felt her soul coming alive. Even with her growing closeness

520
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: with Father Tom, though, there were still moments when Mary

521
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: felt hollow hollowness that made her think of about leaving

522
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: the order, and that even led her to make an

523
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: escape plan, the one where she was away at the

524
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: hospital by the coast. She thought, you could find street

525
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: clothes and slip away.

526
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: And I was very tempted. But then various things happened

527
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 2: and I wasn't able to run away. And when I

528
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: came back and I told I told Father Tom about that,

529
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: I just looked in his eyes and he's just saying,

530
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: you can't just disappear. I mean, tell me you wouldn't

531
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: do that, tell me you'd call. I was like, he'd

532
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 2: be concerned about it. Disappeared, okay. He told me that

533
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: I should call him when I was having a bad day.

534
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: We could just talk. And of course, how would I

535
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: get to the telephone and all the rest of it.

536
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: But he told me I hate to see you in

537
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: so much pain, and then he kissed the top of

538
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 2: my head through my sorry.

539
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:54,959
Speaker 1: That just.

540
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: Felt so good and so unexpected and perfect.

541
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: Did you feel like you were falling for him in

542
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: some way at that point?

543
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: I had felt an attraction for him from the very beginning,

544
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 2: from the first time I saw him. I knew he

545
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: was somebody extraordinary. You know. I had been holding myself

546
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 2: in check. I didn't want to go further. I didn't

547
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: want to do with him the things I'd done with

548
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: sister and Iobi. That just didn't make any sense to me.

549
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: But emotionally, we are having this relationship that deepens and deepens,

550
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 2: a relationship of trust, a very deep companionship on this

551
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 2: spiritual journey that we were both on. And so naturally,

552
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 2: when you have a relationship where you feel completely at

553
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: home with someone, where you've always felt attracted towards this person,

554
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 2: naturally your body wants to go there.

555
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: One day, Mary couldn't help herself.

556
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: Jesus wants me to have life, fullness of life. Where

557
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: do I feel the most full of life? And I

558
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: knew that that was in my relationship with Tom. It

559
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 2: was really kind of like almost the only place I

560
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: felt really fully alive.

561
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: So just before mass Mary walked into the sacristy, a

562
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: small room near the chapel. Tom was there preparing for

563
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: the service.

564
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: When I gave him this big kiss, it felt just

565
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: so right, It felt all tingly, the way those things

566
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: can do sometimes, and I walked out afterwards. He says,

567
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: you know, you're very good at that, And he says,

568
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 2: but please, you know, don't do that before mass anymore.

569
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: Like that, I couldn't think of anything else all during.

570
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: Mass Mary started confessing to a different priest after that.

571
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: As time went on, Tom often encouraged to Mary to

572
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: call him on the phone so they could just talk

573
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: about their days. But Mary didn't have a way to

574
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: call him.

575
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: Missionaries of charity did not make phone calls without a

576
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: very specific purpose and without permission, and that purpose could

577
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: never be just to talk to somebody about your problems.

578
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: Even if she tried to sneak a call, there'd always

579
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: be a high risk that someone walked in on her.

580
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: But come winter, the superior of the house moved out

581
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: of Mother's room to a warmer part of the convent

582
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: this met. Mary had access to that room at night,

583
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,959
Speaker 1: and there was a telephone inside. She started calling Tom

584
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: while the sisters were on their way to bed. She

585
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: kept the calls short.

586
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 2: You never know who's listening at the door, You never

587
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: know who might open the door. But it was just

588
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: wonderful to hear his voice at the end of the day,

589
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: to ask him how his day went, to hear him

590
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 2: say I love you before I hung up the phone,

591
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: to be able to say I love you back.

592
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: While Mother Teresa was experiencing her darkness, feeling ignored by

593
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: her paces, Mary was pursuing a forbidden love, a type

594
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: of love that she felt was expanding her life. She

595
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: had said I love you before, but this felt new.

596
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: Something was different from the manipulative I love you so

597
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: she'd heard so often from Naobi.

598
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: When Father Tom told me I love you, it was

599
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 2: in line with his actions. I knew that he meant it,

600
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: and it reinforced to me the way that God loved me,

601
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: that I was worthy of that.

602
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: Mary was about thirty six at this point. She and

603
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: Tom day dreamed about other versions of their lives, other

604
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: places they could be.

605
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: What would it be like if we could go out

606
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: on the streets of Rome walking hand in hand, go

607
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: through the park like that. You know, I got the

608
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: trees on either side one of these beautiful Roman parks.

609
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: Just to be able to walk hand in hand in public,

610
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 2: wouldn't that be marvelous? Or to go a little further,

611
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: what would it be like, you know, to wake up

612
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 2: together in the morning, to make coffee for each other,

613
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: to sit together and read at night?

614
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: What would that be like?

615
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be so nice? There's kind of these imaginings

616
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: of things that were totally impossible, even though they were

617
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: so ordinary. It's kind of like me sitting here and

618
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: imagining what would it be like to have a house

619
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 2: in Hawaii and another one in France? And oh, you know,

620
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: it's totally out of the questions. It's never going to happen,

621
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: but you can imagine.

622
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: At one point, Mary got sick a sinus infection, a

623
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: bad one. She had to go to the hospital for

624
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: surgery during Holy Week, so she asked Tom if he

625
00:40:58,760 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: would come.

626
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 2: I told him that I thought we could have some

627
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 2: time alone. So on Easter Monday morning, I brushed my

628
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: teeth three times, I put on the most revealing night's

629
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: dressed that the sisters had sent me, which means that

630
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 2: it had short sleeves, and it had a neckline where

631
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: my collarbones showed a little bit. And I waited and waited,

632
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: and every time I heard footsteps in the corridor, I

633
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: thought maybe. But then finally she.

634
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: Opened the door and father Tom was there. Mary had

635
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: a roommate, so Tom suggested they go on a walk,

636
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: and I.

637
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: Said, yes, let's go for a walk.

638
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: The hospital was quiet, most people had been dismissed because

639
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: of Holy Week. Many of the rooms are empty. They

640
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: walked into one of them.

641
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: And we left the door slightly ajar, but we positioned

642
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: ourselves in the room in a way that anyone opening

643
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: the door wouldn't see us immediately. And we sat down

644
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 2: and we found a physical intimacy together deeper than anything

645
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: we'd managed to do back in the convent. Our hands

646
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: found each other in new sorts of ways, and it

647
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: was a very, very beautiful moment.

648
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: Afterward, they walked out of the room to the service

649
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: elevator at the back of the ward. When the doors

650
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: of the elevator closed behind them, they kissed again.

651
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: We rode that elevator up and down and up and down,

652
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: and every now and then somebody would get on with

653
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: a laundry cart or something like that, and we'd kind

654
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: of behave ourselves for a little while, and that we'd

655
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: get in, the elevator would go up and down again,

656
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: and it's like we just didn't want to separate from

657
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Speaker 2: each other. But then finally we did open the door

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Speaker 2: on the elevator and Tom left to go, and I

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Speaker 2: watched and watched and watched till I couldn't see him anymore.

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Speaker 1: The Turning is written by Alan Lance, Lester and Me.

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Speaker 1: Our producers are Allen Lance Luster and Emily Foreman. Our

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Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea Assuage is our digital producer.

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Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Special thanks to Amy Gaines,

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Speaker 1: Sarah Olander, marun Frishkoff, Bethanne Mcaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting

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Speaker 1: producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration

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Speaker 1: for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica Albert and

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Speaker 1: John Parati from Her Cocoa Punch and Katrina Norvill from iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Matt Reid. For photos and

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Speaker 1: more details on the series, follow us on Instagram app

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Speaker 1: at Rocca Punch. You can reach out via email to

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Speaker 1: the Turning at Vercocoa punch dot com. I'm Erica Lands.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 5: I