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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: A Brian Coberg bombshell. Did a survivor roommate actually see

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Speaker 2: her roommate Xana lying dead on Xana's bedroom floor and

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Speaker 2: spots the masked intruder wearing all black and tonight motive revealed?

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Speaker 2: And Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: On location of your emergency.

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Speaker 4: Emergency one one.

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Speaker 2: Twos did one of these surviving young women, a young girl,

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Speaker 2: actually see Xanna Kunodle's dead body lying on her bedroom floor,

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Speaker 2: prone mistaking it for alcohol consumption, then spots the masked

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Speaker 2: intruder that the state says was none other than PhD

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Speaker 2: student Brian Cooburger but also tonight, did two of the

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Speaker 2: roommates nearly collide with the killer?

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Speaker 1: Listen?

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Speaker 4: Xana Cernodle and Ethan Chapin heads straight to Zanna's room

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Speaker 4: when they get in from a Sigma Kay party at

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Speaker 4: one forty five, but Kaylee gonzambez In, Madison Mogan chat

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Speaker 4: with Dylan Mortenson and Bethany funking Kaylee's room when they

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Speaker 4: arrive about twenty minutes later. The smell of Kaylee and

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Speaker 4: Madison's grub truck snacks make Bethany and Dylan debate going

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Speaker 4: back out for their own two ten am, Dylan takes

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Speaker 4: a friend to see if they're willing to give them

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Speaker 4: a ride, but getting no reply, the girls decide to

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Speaker 4: head to bed and say the good nights.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to Sidney Sumner, a Crime Stories investigative reporter, Sydney,

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Speaker 2: they really wanted to go back out and get something

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Speaker 2: to eat, finally opting for just let's order.

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Speaker 1: Some door dash. It's like four o'clock in the.

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Speaker 2: Morning, and yet there were still food trucks saying restaurants

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Speaker 2: and bar still open. And at the last minute before

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Speaker 2: they leave, they go, eh, let's just order. If they

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Speaker 2: had gone out as they were planning to do, they

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Speaker 2: would have collided with the killer.

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Speaker 1: Sydney.

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Speaker 5: That's quite possible, Nancy. We believe the killer was in

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Speaker 5: that home four oh seven a m ish. That's that timeline.

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Speaker 5: We know Xanna were still active on her phone on

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Speaker 5: TikTok until four to twelve am, just a few minutes

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Speaker 5: after she received that door dash order. Now it was

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Speaker 5: Bethany and Dylan who were debating going out and getting

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Speaker 5: more food after meeting with their other roommates Kaylee and Madison.

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Speaker 5: So these girls were just minutes away, one decision away

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Speaker 5: from that night turning out possibly much differently than it did.

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Speaker 1: That would have been victims five and six joining me

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Speaker 1: in All Star panel. But I want to go to former.

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Speaker 2: FBI Scott Iiker, and we'll go back to him in

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Speaker 2: a moment regarding the seal datam because he's an expert

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Speaker 2: in that. But Scott, you've seen so many cases with

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Speaker 2: the FBI all across our country, and I've prosecuted, investigated

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Speaker 2: so many cases where just on a whim, like an

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Speaker 2: angel on your shoulder, you make a split decision and

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Speaker 2: you save your life or you lose your life. If

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Speaker 2: they had done that, Scott Iker, they would have collided

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Speaker 2: with Brian Coberger with his k bar knife and his

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Speaker 2: black Ninja suit on, and they would have been victims

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Speaker 2: five and six according to the prosecution.

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Speaker 6: I totally agree in that the fact that it's random,

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Speaker 6: you know, a simple decision can change the lives of people.

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Speaker 6: Did you go this way, did you turn right, did

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Speaker 6: you turn left? Did you make this decision? Did you

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Speaker 6: not make this decision? And thank god there's not five

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Speaker 6: and six victims, But it can be random in the

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Speaker 6: aspect that what happens if they actually walk into the sky,

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Speaker 6: does he turn to walk away and everybody's okay, do

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Speaker 6: do they get murdered themselves too? That's the way it

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Speaker 6: occurs in every case.

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Speaker 2: According to the prosecution, he entered the king Rote address

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Speaker 2: with murder.

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Speaker 1: On his mind, and he had been planning it for at.

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Speaker 2: Least eight months when he ordered the k bar knife

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Speaker 2: from Amazon. That's how far back the murder plot goes.

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Speaker 2: And we're about to get into motive. But at this

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Speaker 2: moment tonight, the timeline is crystallizing, is becoming even more clear.

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Speaker 7: Listen, Kayli and Madison finished their food than lay in

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Speaker 7: bed chatting until they drift off to sleep. Zana places

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Speaker 7: a door dash order that arrives at four am and

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Speaker 7: is active on TikTok until four to twelve am. Around

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Speaker 7: that time, Dylan Mortenson hears strange noises and what sounds

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Speaker 7: like crying upstairs. Piece her head out of the room

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Speaker 7: and comes face to face with a man plaid in

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Speaker 7: all black. The only part of his body that isn't

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Speaker 7: covered his eyes. Now scared, Dylan places calls to her roommates,

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Speaker 7: Bethany is the only one who answers. The girls talk

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Speaker 7: at four nineteen, then again at four twenty before they

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Speaker 7: switch to text scene about the stranger in their home.

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Speaker 1: And we have those texts.

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Speaker 2: We're about to play them for you, but because they're

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Speaker 2: both afraid and two separate bedrooms and one of their

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Speaker 2: cell phones is going dead, it's like out of a

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Speaker 2: horror movie.

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Speaker 1: One convinces the other one to take a.

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Speaker 2: Dash and run to the other bedroom, and it's then

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Speaker 2: that we believe one of the surviving girls spots Xana

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Speaker 2: dead on the floor.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 4: Bethany convinces Dylan to run to a room. In her

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Speaker 4: dash downstairs, Dylan sees Xana on the floor with her

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Speaker 4: feet toward the door, in her head toward the wall

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Speaker 4: in her room. The girls cower in Bethany's room until

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Speaker 4: they fall asleep for just a few restlessness. When they

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Speaker 4: wake up, Bethany and Dylan decide to call friends to

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Speaker 4: check the house at eleven forty nine am.

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Speaker 2: And at that juncture, she was still assuming that Xana

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Speaker 2: was passed out from alcohol consumption. You know, to doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 2: Marshall joining us for now, psycho Alic's joining us out

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Speaker 2: of the La jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. At doctor

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Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall dot com. You can see her on Peacock Now,

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Speaker 2: doctor Bethany, Why is it that our mind goes to

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Speaker 2: the most, let me say, the least threatening scenario. Because

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Speaker 2: when Dylan runs by, she sees Xana prone on the floor,

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Speaker 2: stretched out, but she thinks, oh my, she's passed.

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Speaker 1: Out drunk and keeps running.

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Speaker 2: It never occurs to her she's been stabbed dead and

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Speaker 2: the killer is in the house.

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Speaker 8: You know, Nancy, this is a scene out of a

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Speaker 8: horror movie. I cannot imagine the fear, the panic, even

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Speaker 8: the courage just to leave her room and run to

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Speaker 8: the other girl's room. But when she sees her lying

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Speaker 8: on the floor, of course she's going to think as

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Speaker 8: alcohol because we interpret events out of our own past experience.

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Speaker 8: And if they were kids who liked to party and

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Speaker 8: have fun and enjoyed each other and maybe occasionally imbibed

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Speaker 8: a little too much alcohol, that's the interpretive lens through

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Speaker 8: which she's going to look at that experience, or look

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Speaker 8: at that prome body on the floor. On the other hand,

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Speaker 8: they are in a panic, so they're kind of going

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Speaker 8: back and forth between fear, panic, and oh she just

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Speaker 8: had a little too much to drink. It just it

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Speaker 8: sounds like a chaotic and confusing situation.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand.

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Speaker 2: I'm just a JD, not a shrink like you, But

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Speaker 2: I'm projecting. When my fiance was murdered and I was

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Speaker 2: first told that he was gone, I just assumed he

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Speaker 2: had had a crash, some kind of a car wreck.

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Speaker 2: But my mind never went to the fact that he

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Speaker 2: had been shot five times, and the face and the

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Speaker 2: head and the back. That's just not where your mind goes.

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Speaker 2: So I get it. And these victims have been assailed

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Speaker 2: and attacked.

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Speaker 1: Why did they wait so long to report the attack?

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Speaker 1: What were they doing?

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Speaker 2: Well, now we're learning what happened in those hours. Now

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Speaker 2: listen to this.

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Speaker 3: When Dylan and Bethany emerged from Bethany's room to meet

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Speaker 3: their friends, Dylan sees Zenna in the same position as

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Speaker 3: the night before. Dylan bursts into tears, worried that she

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Speaker 3: may have serious alcohol poisoning. Moments later, one of the

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Speaker 3: men comes outside and instructs the girls to call nine

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Speaker 3: to one one. Now, Bethany connects with a dispatcher at

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Speaker 3: eleven fifty six am.

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Speaker 2: Okay to Sidney Sumner, crime Stori's investigative reporter, explain what

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Speaker 2: we just heard.

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Speaker 5: So we know that Dylan saw Zenna passed out in

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Speaker 5: her room. The next morning, they are too scared to

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Speaker 5: come out of Bethany's room without asking friends to come

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Speaker 5: and check the house. So we're now learning new court documents.

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Speaker 5: Hunter Johnson and a friend come over to the house

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Speaker 5: to check on the girls, make sure nothing is out

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Speaker 5: of place, and when Hunter Johnson gets to the house,

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Speaker 5: he actually grabs a knife out of the kitchen before

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Speaker 5: walking around the rest of the house because these girls

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Speaker 5: are so scared. So that's when they see Vanna again,

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Speaker 5: still pass out. Bethany and Dylan still think that maybe

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Speaker 5: she just drank too much the night before, but it's

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Speaker 5: odd that she isn't awake by now. So at this point,

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Speaker 5: the girls get upset and their friends send them out

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Speaker 5: of the house. Tell them to calm down. We're going

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Speaker 5: to check the rest of this out and we'll come

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Speaker 5: back with you.

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Speaker 2: Mean Hunter the male friend, they call him over because

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Speaker 2: they're cowering in the bedroom.

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Speaker 1: They don't know what's happening.

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Speaker 2: They're thinking, what she passed outun where's everybody else, what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Who is that guy dressed all in black? Who's that?

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Speaker 1: So they call Hunter the friend.

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Speaker 2: He comes over and whatever they say to him, they're

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Speaker 2: so afraid. He arms himself with a knife and says,

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Speaker 2: you two go.

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Speaker 1: Out, I'm gonna go. Look.

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Speaker 2: In the last days, Judge Hippler has made a big ruling.

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Speaker 2: Hippler has ruled the texts sent between Dylan and Bethany,

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Speaker 2: the two that survived that were meant to survive, to

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Speaker 2: tell the tale in court. Those texts are coming into

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Speaker 2: evidence and this is what they reveal.

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Speaker 9: Listen, no one is answering. I'm really confused right now. Yeah, dude,

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Speaker 9: what the Xana was wearing all black? I'm freaking out

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Speaker 9: right now. No, it's like a ski mask almost shut

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Speaker 9: them up. Actually, like he had something over his forehead

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Speaker 9: and mouth. Bethany, I'm not kidding. I'm so freaked out,

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Speaker 9: So Amne. My phone is going to die.

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Speaker 1: Come to my room, run down here.

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Speaker 5: I'm screwed though, yeah, I know, but it's better than

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Speaker 5: being alone.

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Speaker 1: Joining me.

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Speaker 2: Veteran trial lawyer Joshua Ritter, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: and hosts of Courtroom confidential on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: Joshua, Now I know why the defense.

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Speaker 2: Thought too and Nail to keep out the text messages.

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Speaker 2: They corroborate what we are now learning about the timeline.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, the defense was really aggressive. I'm trying to keep

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Speaker 10: this stuff out for a couple of reasons. Like you said,

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Speaker 10: it corroborates the timeline. But they also know these are

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Speaker 10: the only closest to eyewitnesses in this case, especially the

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Speaker 10: one surviving roommate giving that description. So they need to

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Speaker 10: cut the credibility of these witnesses as much as possible,

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Speaker 10: and they're going to attack one that their level of

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Speaker 10: intoxication at that time too. They're also saying that listen,

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Speaker 10: this is hearsay, and it is hearsay, but it falls

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Speaker 10: under certain exceptions. But they made these arguments to the

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Speaker 10: judge argued them vociferously that these should be cant differently.

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Speaker 1: You're right that they argued hearsay. It did not work.

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Speaker 2: On the text texts are coming in, but portions of

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Speaker 2: the nine one one call are being suppressed. I can't

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Speaker 2: believe that a portion of a nimal one call, which

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Speaker 2: is a contemporaneous communication, And the reason I'm using those

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Speaker 2: words that that's an exception to the hearsay rule if

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Speaker 2: the statements were made contemporaneous to the moment. But I

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Speaker 2: want you to hear the nine one one call and

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Speaker 2: we'll find out why the defense wanted to keep it out.

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Speaker 5: Tell me what's going on one of our one of

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Speaker 5: the roommates has passed out, and she's drunk lass and

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Speaker 5: not leaking up.

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 5: Oh and they saw some man in their house. I say, yeah, Hian.

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Speaker 6: Are you in the patient?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 8: I need someone who keeps the phone, stop passing it around.

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Speaker 5: Can I just tell you what happened?

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Speaker 10: Pretty much?

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Speaker 8: What is going on currently as someone passed out right now?

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Speaker 2: I don't really know what pretty much?

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Speaker 5: Aquorim okay, So.

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Speaker 6: I need to know what's going on right now.

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Speaker 8: If someone has passed out, can you find that out?

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Speaker 11: Yeah, I'll come.

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Speaker 5: I'm at.

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Speaker 1: At that point. The girls, Dylan and Bethany are still hoping.

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Speaker 2: I think even though deep inside they knew Xanna wasn't

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Speaker 2: just passed out. She's still lying on the floor where

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Speaker 2: she was hours before.

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Speaker 1: But listen to the rest of the nightm one call.

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Speaker 5: Wrong, She's not waking up.

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Speaker 12: Okay, one moment, I'm gonna help start that way.

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Speaker 2: And then you hear the male friend Hunter yelling at

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Speaker 2: Bethany and Dylan to.

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Speaker 1: Get get out, go outside, get back out.

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Speaker 2: Because he must realize that they have all been stabbed dead.

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Speaker 2: And you can hear her voice in the nimal one

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Speaker 2: call saying that they're not waking up. She's not waking up,

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Speaker 2: and realization is setting in that Xana is dead, lying

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Speaker 2: on the floor. Sidney, I'm perplexed as to why the

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Speaker 2: judge has suppressed even any part of this nimal one call,

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Speaker 2: But I guess Hippler.

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Speaker 1: Threw a bone to the defense. What is the.

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Speaker 2: Judge suppressing out of the nimal one calls, Nancy, it's

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Speaker 2: three statements, and really these are really hearsay.

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Speaker 5: So the first caller that we hear, who is a

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Speaker 5: little bit calmer, not who is crying, labored breathing. Later,

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Speaker 5: that caller is not one of the roommates, that is

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Speaker 5: another friend, and she is relaying information that's been told

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Speaker 5: to her. One of the roommates is passed out and

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Speaker 5: not waking up, So that statement is the first one

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Speaker 5: that's not coming into evidence. And then that caller continues

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Speaker 5: her statement and says, oh and they saw a man

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Speaker 5: in their house last night, So not only is that

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Speaker 5: being relayed to her, but that's not talking about the

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Speaker 5: scene that's going on around her. So those two statements

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Speaker 5: are not coming in. And the third one is when

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Speaker 5: Bethany takes the phone and she's trying to tell the dispatcher,

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Speaker 5: can I just tell you what happened last night last

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Speaker 5: night at four am, and the dispatcher cuts her off.

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Speaker 5: She doesn't get any further than that, but the dispatcher

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Speaker 5: needs to know what's happening now. So those three statements

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Speaker 5: are what is going to be redacted from the nine

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Speaker 5: one one call when the jury hears.

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Speaker 2: It, tell me exactly what's going on.

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Speaker 13: One of the roommates has passed and she was strong class.

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Speaker 5: Oh and they saw some man in their.

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Speaker 2: House of right, Yeah, motive revealed. Why would Brian Coburger,

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Speaker 2: According to the State stalk and murder four innocent people

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Speaker 2: that King wrote address, he had to watch them to

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Speaker 2: see their comings and goings. What could possibly be the motive?

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Speaker 2: He didn't even know them. According to the defense, Joining

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Speaker 2: Me Now expert Howard Bloom, author of When the Night

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Speaker 2: Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student murders Howard motive.

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Speaker 13: The big question in this entire case has always been

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Speaker 13: why why would someone enter the house off campus home

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Speaker 13: of four students and brually murder them in the hours

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Speaker 13: before dawn? And all along everyone has been coming up

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Speaker 13: with hypotheses about what could have happened. Well, now the

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Speaker 13: prosecution thinks they have put the pieces together. They believe

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Speaker 13: that there's a direct link from doctor Catherine Ramslin to

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Speaker 13: Brian Colberger. Doctor Ramslin had been his tutor, his professor

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Speaker 13: at graduate school at Dessalle University. When he went for

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Speaker 13: his masters, he idolized her. She put him on a

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Speaker 13: course of course to become a forensic psychologist.

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Speaker 2: And well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Howard. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so she was his instructor. We know that, we know

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Speaker 2: she's a renowned criminal investigator and professor, but how does

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Speaker 2: that equal motive, Howard.

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Speaker 13: Brian Colberger is someone who becomes obsessed easily. He was

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Speaker 13: a heroin addict and then he kicked it. I believe

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Speaker 13: he was obsessed with one of the victims in the

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Speaker 13: king Roade murder House. And I also believe he was

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Speaker 13: obsessed with Kaffan Ramslin believe he in a way idolized her.

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Speaker 13: He idolized all her accomplishments, and he wanted to make

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Speaker 13: his own life, his own career, mirror her accomplishments. He

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Speaker 13: wanted to become a forensic psychologist. He wanted to have

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Speaker 13: her talent, her ability to look into the dark recesses

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Speaker 13: of the criminal mind, but he even wanted to take

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Speaker 13: its one step father. As his relationship grew, he wanted

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Speaker 13: to prove to her that he could be even better

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Speaker 13: than she was and understanding in the criminal mind, because

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Speaker 13: he could commit the perfect crime. And this perfect crime

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Speaker 13: that he was committing was, in many ways one can speculate,

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Speaker 13: almost a love letter to doctor Catherine Ramslin. He was

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Speaker 13: trying to win her affection and her respect, and his

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Speaker 13: way of doing this, in his bizarre sort of rout

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Speaker 13: of mate mania, was to make this perfect crime as

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Speaker 13: an homage to her.

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Speaker 2: Howard Bloom has written the book That's True When the

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Speaker 2: Night Comes Falling. But I need a shrink again, doctor

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Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall, I'm just a trial lawyer.

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Speaker 1: What is he saying a rodo mania?

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Speaker 8: What Howard Bloom is saying is that Brian Kolberger was

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Speaker 8: in love with his mentor, and because he was studying

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Speaker 8: to become a clinical psychologist, a criminologist, he wanted to

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Speaker 8: commit the perfect crime. Howard Blum calls this a ronalmania.

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Speaker 5: Rono Mania is.

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Speaker 8: When somebody is in a very manic, excited state and

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Speaker 8: they believe that they are at the center of another

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Speaker 8: person's attention. So he believes that doctor Ramsln is in

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Speaker 8: love with him, and he's going to prove that he's

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Speaker 8: worthy of her love. Nancy, This makes no sense. I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 8: she's a criminologist and he's going to commit a crime

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Speaker 8: to impress her. I mean, logic just there's nothing logical

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Speaker 8: about that. I mean, let's say it works. Did he

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Speaker 8: take a trophy to give to her? Did he take

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Speaker 8: pictures to show to her? I mean, it would be

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Speaker 8: more understandable if he caught a killer to impress her,

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Speaker 8: not becoming a killer.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about potential motive. Potential motive in this case.

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Speaker 1: Was he so obsessed with Dr.

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Speaker 2: Ramslin that he had grown to love her in an

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Speaker 2: obsessive way to Chris McDonough joining me, a veteran homicide detective,

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Speaker 2: director Cole Case's Foundation and star of the interview room

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Speaker 2: on YouTube. I've seen murders for a lot less, but

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Speaker 2: obsession definitely.

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Speaker 1: A motive I've seen many many times.

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Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean the defendant and the love object

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Speaker 2: had ever been intimate, had ever even held hands or kissed.

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Speaker 1: It's the obsession with Ramsland.

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Speaker 2: That's what Howard Blue is talking about, whether requited or not.

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Speaker 14: Yeah, the challenge so Nancy with the obsession aspect here

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Speaker 14: with doctor Ramslan is Brian Coberger hates women, Let's just

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Speaker 14: start there. And his obsessive behavior was not around his professor,

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Speaker 14: but rather his study of those who would commit mass murder.

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Speaker 14: And so I think we need to dig a little

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Speaker 14: bit deeper.

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Speaker 15: Here, and again I believe that at some point it

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Speaker 15: will be shown that he was obsessed with serial killers

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Speaker 15: Ted Bundy, specifically.

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Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Gray.

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Speaker 2: Was Brian Hoberger at obsessed with doctor Ramsen, one of

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Speaker 2: his female instructors, known as the consummate expert.

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Speaker 1: In the field. We know that.

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Speaker 2: Also the defense fought again tooth and nail to keep

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Speaker 2: out his thesis, the thesis regarding criminal behavior that he wrote,

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Speaker 2: which delves into the criminal psyche.

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Speaker 12: Listen in arguments against its inclusion, The defense reveals that

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Speaker 12: prosecutors plan to enter into evidence records from Colberger's graduate

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Speaker 12: studies in psychology at the Sales University. The filing says

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Speaker 12: they have received discovery including Coberger's school calendar, written coursework, testing, emails,

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Speaker 12: and syllabi from his time as a master's student, and

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Speaker 12: the attorneys failed to see its relevance. As part of

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Speaker 12: his thesis, Colberger worked with professors to develop a survey

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Speaker 12: exploring how emotions influence a criminal's decision making during the

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Speaker 12: commission of a violent crime.

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Speaker 1: Wow, is that.

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Speaker 2: Airbrust or what Sidney Summer joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't just a survey, It wasn't just a black

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Speaker 2: and white on a page report.

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Speaker 1: He would ask these violent felons, how did you pick

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Speaker 1: your victim? What did it feel like when you enacted

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Speaker 1: the crime?

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Speaker 2: In other words, when you stabbed someone, or raped someone,

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Speaker 2: or kill someone, felt the life.

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Speaker 1: Ebbing out of their body? What did that feel like?

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Speaker 1: How did you get away? What was your exit strategy?

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Speaker 2: He wanted the gruesome details, the emotions these violent felons

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Speaker 2: experienced in the throes of the murder.

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Speaker 5: That's absolutely correct. This was not just a pick one

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Speaker 5: of the below survey. It was extremely in depth. He

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Speaker 5: wanted to know exactly how that criminal felt as they

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Speaker 5: committed their crime, their violent crime. In addition to that survey,

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Speaker 5: prosecutors also wanted to introduce a report that he gave,

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Speaker 5: and it was basically how he would go in and

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Speaker 5: assess a crime scene if he was the lead investigator

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Speaker 5: in a case. First to the crime scene. And that

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Speaker 5: case study was a stabbing of a woman more middle

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Speaker 5: aged than the victims in his actual criminal case. But

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Speaker 5: I think prosecutors planned to use that just to demonstrate

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Speaker 5: how much knowledging crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Clo over verifies something that you just said.

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Speaker 2: In his study, his hypothetical victim was a white female

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Speaker 2: alone that he stabbed with a knife inside a structure.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that true?

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Speaker 5: Yes? That is correct.

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Speaker 1: Guys, do you not see.

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Speaker 2: The importance of the judges ruling allowing that study, that

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Speaker 2: doctoral thesis that Coburger wrote, allowing that in now the

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Speaker 2: state is never required to show motive.

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Speaker 1: But here you've.

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Speaker 2: Got, according to Bloom, Coburger's obsession erotomania that doctor Bethany

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Speaker 2: explained to us with Ramsland hand in hand corroborated by

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Speaker 2: this thesis. He's trying so hard to not only oppress her,

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Speaker 2: but to best her in his knowledge.

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Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Bethany, Well.

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Speaker 8: I think one of the things he's doing. If we

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Speaker 8: think of this crime as sexually motivated, then interviewing other

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Speaker 8: criminals is almost like his pornography. It's one of the

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Speaker 8: things he wants to read and reread.

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Speaker 5: He's obsessed with it.

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Speaker 8: But I would say that that motivation also applies to

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Speaker 8: doctor Ramslom that if there were a lot of media

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Speaker 8: that the excitement, the sexual excitement, the emotional excitement and

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Speaker 8: being around her is that she's talking about crime. This

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Speaker 8: is his crack nancy. This is the thing that he

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Speaker 8: is most obsessed about. So if he were to be

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Speaker 8: in love with somebody, and if he were to believe

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Speaker 8: that that love object reciprocates his affection, it would be

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Speaker 8: something like doctor Ramsland, because they have this common interest

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Speaker 8: in crime.

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Speaker 2: Can I ask you something, doctor Bethany, How does stabbing

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Speaker 2: a young co ed over and overslicing her up, butchering her,

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Speaker 2: how is that sexually.

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Speaker 1: Pleasing?

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Speaker 8: In the DSM, we see that sexual sadism is one

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Speaker 8: of the five perversions exhibitionism, proderism, voyeurism, pedophilia. And the

441
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 8: reason for that, Nancy, is that sociopaths have under arousal

442
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 8: in her emptiness. They can't get excited by normal events

443
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 8: in life like you and I do. So Committing cruelty,

444
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 8: seeing the fear in a woman's eyes, feeling the knight

445
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 8: slash through their body, all of these things are very

446
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 8: sexually satisfying because they pair sadism and being hurtful with

447
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 8: sexual excitement. In other words, it stimulates them out of

448
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 8: that dead state. You know how we say with killers

449
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 8: they have dead eyes. They do have dead eyes because

450
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 8: internally they are dead, but when they commit acts of cruelty,

451
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 8: it brings them alive, and they pair that with sexual excitement,

452
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 8: and that's what drives the crime, and.

453
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: Then they relive it over and over and over for

454
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: sexual excitement. Speaking of I'm sure Ramsm is not happy

455
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: about this theory of motive that is now emerging according

456
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 2: to Howard Bloom, but corroborating her relationship with him and

457
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 2: his family. Let's go to Howard Bloom tell me about

458
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 2: the connection between Ramslin and Coyberger's family.

459
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 13: The relationship betwetween doctor Ramslin and the family began way

460
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 13: before the trial. Just days after Brian Coburger's arrest, his

461
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 13: family gets a call from doctor Ramslin asking if she

462
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 13: can help, if she can help them in any way.

463
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 13: She's not talking about his innocence or guilt. She's just

464
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 13: concerned about a student and she wants to guide the

465
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 13: family through this complicated process. The family told the lawyers involved, wait,

466
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 13: we can't do anything until doctor Ramslin gives us approvals

467
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 13: to meet with you.

468
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 7: Thank Vehicle one is first recorded Ian Pullman at two

469
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 7: forty four am as it heads east on State Route

470
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 7: two seventy the direction of Moscow. At three h two am,

471
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 7: it's captured passing Floyd's Cannabis company, located just off State

472
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 7: Route two seventy. At three twenty six am, cameras at

473
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 7: three different residences in the seven hund block of Indian

474
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 7: Hills Drive in Moscow pick up the.

475
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: Same white sedan.

476
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 7: Two minutes later, at three twenty eight am, a camera

477
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 7: at Sunset Mart in Moscow recorded the car turn west

478
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 7: about half a mile away and head in the direction

479
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 7: of the King Roadhouse.

480
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: It sounds to me Scott Iiker joining me, founding member

481
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: FBI's cast Historical Cellular Analysis expert cast Team Scott. It

482
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: sounds like they have got him in his vehicle starting

483
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: at two forty four a m. And I'm going to

484
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: explain how the vehicle is trapped all the way back

485
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: to within one mile that night at five point twenty

486
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: six am, back to his apartment, Scott Iiker.

487
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: How did they do it?

488
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 6: That's one of the things that we teach in our

489
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 6: classes is not only are you looking at the cell

490
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 6: phone stuff, but the cell phone stuff can lead you

491
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 6: to the paths that the vehicle or person took, so

492
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 6: you can go look for cameras in that area. It's

493
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 6: very helpful and validates the cellular stuff. And the cameras

494
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 6: themselves are very helpful, and nowadays there's numerous cameras everywhere houses,

495
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 6: ring doors, businesses. It's very helpful. And if you can

496
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 6: piece it together correctly and make a timeline, you can

497
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 6: see that car in this case, the white cident traveling

498
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 6: towards the crime scene. That's fantastic evidence.

499
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:44,959
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Scott Iiker with us.

500
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: As we just reported, he the vehicle, the white Alantra

501
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: matching the description of his car, pulls out at Pullman

502
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: where he lives.

503
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: It's about ten minutes.

504
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: Away from King Road where the four students were murdered

505
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: at Pullman two forty four, heading east State wrote to

506
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: seventy toward Moscow three two a m. About twenty minutes later,

507
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: it passes Floyd's Cannabis. That's just off two seventy three.

508
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: Twenty six cameras at three residences spot the Elantra at

509
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: Indian Hills Drive. Okay, that's in Moscow. He's in Moscow

510
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: picking up the same white Alantra. Two minutes later three

511
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: twenty eight Sunset Mart Moscow records the car turn and

512
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: head toward the King Road house.

513
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: Chris mcdona. You and I intimately familiar with that.

514
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: Sunset Mart is at that the place, Chris mcdona, where

515
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: a clerk took it upon herself to come through literally

516
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 2: hours of surveillance video and she spots a white Elantra

517
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: speeding by and she calls police.

518
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 14: Yeah, Nancy, and you've been there, You've seen that intersection.

519
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 14: And what's really interesting here is this is the night

520
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 14: of the homicide. I'm going to be really curious to

521
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 14: find out what the cast team discovered not the night

522
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 14: of the homicide, but leading up to it, that's going

523
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 14: to be fascinating information as well.

524
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: At that corner where the Sunset mart is, it's just

525
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 2: a hop, skip and a jump from there to the

526
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: King Road address, and there you've got a white a

527
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: launch returning heading toward the murder scene.

528
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: Okay, let's pick it up right there. Listen.

529
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 4: A security camera on the apartment building neighboring eleven twenty

530
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 4: two King Road first records a white sedan at three

531
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 4: thirty am. Over the next thirty four minutes, it circles

532
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 4: the neighborhood at least five times, then parks. At four

533
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 4: oh seven am, prosecutor's right vehicle one exits the frame,

534
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 4: traveling in the direction of the victim's residence. There is

535
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 4: no subsequent activity captured for approximately thirteen minutes. At four

536
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 4: to twenty am, the white Sitan leaves King Wrote at

537
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 4: a high rate of speed and turns west onto Taylor

538
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 4: Avenue to exit the area on the road behind the neighborhood.

539
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: We've seen this before.

540
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: Can't you just imagine this was going to happen, Joshua Ritter.

541
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: The jury is going to be sitting there and they're

542
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: going to be watching this video, and we saw it

543
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 2: recently in another case we investigated and covered. It's the

544
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: case of the so called glam yoga instructor. She wasn't

545
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: glamed to me, Kaylin Armstrong, angry about a love rival,

546
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: made up a whole love triangle in her head. Then

547
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: followed the victim, a young dirt bike racer. Marine followed her,

548
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: and you see surveillance of her like a vulture, circling

549
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: round and round and round in her black suv. Same

550
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: thing here here we are three thirty am. Okay, just

551
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: after the white Elantra passes the sunset, mart would say,

552
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: is the crow flies that's a mile or so away

553
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: from the King Road address. For thirty four minutes it

554
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: circles one, two, three, four five. At four seven am,

555
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: parks Vehicle one exits the frame, traveling in the direction

556
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: of the victim's residence. No activity after that for thirteen minutes.

557
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: For twenty am, that white Elantra leaves at a high

558
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: rate of speed. Now overlay that Joshua with what Dylan

559
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: and Bethany say right based on their timeline, that's exactly

560
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 2: when they spot the intruder in the home just before

561
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: four twenty a m. Just as they were about to

562
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: head out to get food, and they go, ah, let's

563
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: do door dash right there, it all fits together.

564
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: Ritter, Yeah, it's powerful stuff.

565
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 10: I mean, listen, this is this is going to be

566
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 10: one of the things that the defense is going to

567
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 10: have to deal with most seriously. Because you're right, you

568
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 10: start to line it up the way you did, it

569
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 10: starts to pain a pretty vivid picture for the jury.

570
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 10: What is the defense going to argue? I think they're

571
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 10: going to argue. Listen, this is not horseshoes close. It

572
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 10: doesn't count here. You if you're not able to place

573
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 10: our client, the defendant, at the location, and the closest

574
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 10: you can do is a mile away, well then what

575
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 10: are we dealing with here. We're dealing with a person

576
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 10: who happened to have been driving within a mile of

577
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 10: a crime scene. Does not make him guilty. I realize

578
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 10: the counter arguments to all of this, but I'm saying,

579
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 10: as far as the defense is concerned, it's a mile hold.

580
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: Har Yeah, he's in the neighborhood and he parks close

581
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: to the home. The white Lantra is much closer than

582
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: a mile.

583
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: It's a one minute.

584
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: Walk from where they car is parked at four seven,

585
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: only leaving at.

586
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: A high rate of speed at four twenty.

587
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: The best argument they've got right there is, yeah, it's

588
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: a white Alantra, but it's not my guy.

589
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: He happened to.

590
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: Be out in his white Alantra gazing at the moon

591
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 2: and stars, but that's not his Elantra. But it doesn't

592
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: end their ridder. This is like him raising his hand

593
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: going I did it listen.

594
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 3: At five twenty six am, a white sedan is next

595
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: recorded on surveillance footage at e Ands Services on Johnson

596
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: Road in Pullman. Footage at a Pullman sunset mark then

597
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: shows the car headed north on State Route two. Seventy.

598
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 3: Cameras on the WSU campus record the vehicle making its

599
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 3: way north near Beasley Coliseum, which is about a mile

600
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: from Coburger's student department.

601
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 7: Brian Coberger's defense team is asking the judge to limit

602
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 7: expert testimony from FBI Special Agent Nicholas Balance, the member

603
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 7: of CAST, a cellular analyst survey team that specializes in

604
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 7: location least on cell phone records. The defense says call

605
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 7: detail records provide partial alibi corroboration. Balance is prepared to

606
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 7: speak about the location of Coburger's cell phone before and

607
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 7: after the student homicides.

608
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: Wow, no wonder the defense wants that suppressed and more listen.

609
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: Jared and Heather Barnhardt work with Celebrate, with extensive experience

610
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 3: in digital forensics. Celebrate forensic specialists use specialized software and

611
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 3: techniques to extract data from electronic devices. They analyzed Coburger's

612
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 3: computer and cell phone data to determine his whereabouts and

613
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 3: activity before and after the murders. They also looked for

614
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: signs of tampering or deletion of files. Hitler rules that

615
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 3: the Barnhardt's testimony is admissible during the trial.

616
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: To Scott Iiker, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa? Who did I

617
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: hear tampering? Deletion of files?

618
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 2: You know the last time I cleaned out my text

619
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: Never Scott Iiker with me founding member I Cellular Analysis

620
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 2: serve a team, an expert in this, Scott Iiker, what.

621
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: Do they say?

622
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 6: Well, this is damaging evidence, especially if you're putting any

623
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 6: cellular data that the defendant has along with the phone,

624
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 6: of the camera, stuff of the video and you start

625
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 6: matching up the timelines, very very important evidence that to present.

626
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 6: And I can see why the defense doesn't want it

627
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 6: in because it is damaging this cellular data and the

628
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 6: self right information has been proven time and time again

629
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 6: to be reliable in court. So they judge made the

630
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 6: good decision and I'm glad he found there was no

631
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 6: legal basis to exclude them and he's not throwing them.

632
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: Upon you know too.

633
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,959
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan joining as professor forensics, break it down

634
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: for me. Did you hear the words delete tamper with evidence?

635
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: Because a jury hears this expert take the stay in

636
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: and talk about Coburger potentially deleting or destroying evidence, it's over.

637
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 1: Why would he destroy evidence if he was innocent.

638
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 11: It's a thread that runs through this entire case. Remember,

639
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 11: we also have evidence that there was an attempt to

640
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 11: clear out the cachet with the Amazon purchases as well. Nancy,

641
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 11: you see this pattern that's developing here and to this

642
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 11: point about the overlay of the area, it's very compelling.

643
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 11: You know, there's one other piece that we that we

644
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 11: haven't really mentioned. That cell phone actually had pinged back

645
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 11: in that area the next morning. You recall that, and

646
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 11: so almost as a confirmatory drive by perhaps no one

647
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 11: really knows at this point in time, so he may

648
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 11: have returned that morning just to see if there was

649
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 11: any activity around the home. And this goes back to

650
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 11: what we said earlier about the roommates. You've got these

651
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 11: poor kids that are in this place and they're losing

652
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 11: their minds in there. But he wants to casually drive

653
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 11: by and see if anybody is caught wind of this ship.

654
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: You know, Joshua Ritter, you're a veteran trial lawyer.

655
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 2: We're talking about how he can get out of the

656
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: car evid as by claiming, well, yeah, it looks like

657
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 2: my car, but it's not my car, even though it

658
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 2: went all the way back toward less than one mile

659
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: from his Pullman address and it left from there as well.

660
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: We're talking about cell phone data, whether he deleted data.

661
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: But the reality is it boils down to this. His

662
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: DNA is on the NFE sheet. It just can't get

663
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: away from that. Everything else again is gravy.

664
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 10: No, you're right, the whole case hinges on that. I

665
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 10: don't even think you have a filed case without that. Well,

666
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 10: and certainly we don't even know if they would ever

667
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 10: even have a suspect without that. So the whole case

668
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 10: where the prosecution comes down to that DNA, and that's

669
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 10: why you saw the defense fight so vigorously to have

670
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 10: it thrown out legally. That failed, and now they're making

671
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 10: attempts to somehow explain it, because without some sort of

672
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 10: innoctant explanation as to why their client's DNA is on

673
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 10: that knife sheet, they've got major problems.

674
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 13: Now.

675
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 10: The one avenue that they have here is they keep

676
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 10: talking about this being touched DNA or transferred DNA meaning

677
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 10: DNA that you can't exactly say. Does that mean the suspect,

678
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 10: the person whose DNA is the contributor, actually touched that item,

679
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 10: or was it transferred there by some other object or person,

680
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 10: or was it put there that object where the DNA

681
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 10: was recovered from by someone else. These are the arguments

682
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 10: that it seems like the defense might be exploring in

683
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 10: this case.

684
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: We remember American hero Detangis Service officer Michael Wall La

685
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: County Probation passed away in the line of duty fourteen

686
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 2: years with law enforcement. Leays behind a graving daughter Aubrey,

687
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: sister Juel Dion Angelique.

688
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: And brother Sylvester.

689
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 2: American hero officer Michael Wall, Nancy Grace sarting Off goodbye

690
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: FA