WEBVTT - Make time for creative work with Camille Pagan 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:09.760 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:15.600 This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.479 is going to be another longer episode as part of 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.720 my ongoing series where once a week or so I 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.840 talk with somebody fascinating about how they take their days 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.800 from great to awesome. So today I am excited to 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.120 welcome Camille Pagan to the program. 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.080 Camille is a career novelist and. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.360 The author of such books as Everything Must Go and 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.839 Life and Other Near Death Experiences, and as a highly 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:45.440 productive author of ten novels, she also coaches other writers 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.280 on how to achieve their goals. 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.200 So Camille, welcome to the show. 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.800 Thanks Laura, happy to be here. 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.479 Yes, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:54.320 about yourself? 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.120 So, as you said, I am a novelist. I have 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:03.280 written ten works of fifth and about a dozen of 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:06.080 other people's nonfiction books that my name is not on. 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.200 So I used to ghost write nonfiction too. I'm a 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:13.920 former health journalist and editor. I've written for The New 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.480 York Times, Real Simple, where I was health editor, Oprah, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.520 basically any magazine you can think of, as well as 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.920 a bunch of newspapers so I really love health and 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:28.319 psychology research still a big part of my coaching practice. 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:30.880 And then for the second half of my day, I 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.920 work with primarily novelists, but some other authors, children's authors, 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.920 nonfiction authors, memoirs, that sort of thing. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.160 So you've got a lot going on at Camille. I 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.119 wonder if you know you could tell us a little 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.040 bit about your morning routine, because this is a show. 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.040 Called Before Breakfast, so lots of our. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.800 Listeners have elaborate morning routines. Let's hear about yours. 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.240 Yeah, so full disclosure, I am a morning person. I 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:57.600 work with a lot of people who are like, oh, 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:59.680 I just don't like the morning. It's my favorite time 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.720 of day. It's when I can get the most done. 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.920 But I am also the parent of two teenagers right now, 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:07.720 so my mornings are a little later than they used 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:09.600 to be because my kids are just up so late. 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.320 I'm up usually around six. I am the first person 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.320 in my family generally out of bed, and I get up, 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:22.200 make myself some coffee, always go to my computer. Used 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.320 to be a notebook, but these days I go directly 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:27.840 to my habit tracker and kind of look at my goals. 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.959 What do I need to do today. I mark little 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.560 things such as what time did I get up, what's 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.640 on the list for the day, and really just get 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.880 my priority straight before I then get my kids out 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.000 of bed, feed them, get them out the door, and 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.799 then I go to the gym. That's really almost every morning. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:50.959 I do that before I write, and it just sets 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.760 the day up for me. Even if it's twenty minute workout. 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:56.639 I feel better doing that. And then I sit down 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.720 around nine with another cup of coffee and I begin 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.400 writing How to be the Exception to the Rule. 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:04.639 Yeah, how far is the gym from your house? I'm 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:06.040 curious what that adds into. 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.560 About a ten minute drive, so it's about twenty minutes 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.200 round trip. I live in ann Arbor. Everything is about 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.880 ten minutes away. It's a beautiful thing compared to when 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.280 I was in the city in New York and everything 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:17.520 was forty five minutes away. 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.080 So yeah, so you got the gym, get yourself, your 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.080 cup of coffee. You're sitting down to work around nine o'clock. 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.920 But you have both writing work and other kinds of 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.520 work you do, So how do you organize your days 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:31.160 to make both of those happen? 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.560 Well, I'm pretty I want to say strict about it 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.600 in that from nine to noon that is my writing time. 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.760 I don't schedule other things in that time unless it's 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.280 really an exception. So this podcast would be an exception. 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.120 But if there's a doctor's appointment and I can do 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.560 it before that period or after that period, it goes there. 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.320 And that is something that if you look on my 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:58.200 digital calendar or my paper calendar, you'll see blocked off. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.760 And I've been doing that for about like thirteen years 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.920 at this point. It really is something that I still 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.440 put down because if it's on the calendar, I will 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.839 do it. And it's a reminder to me, like, don't 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:13.080 schedule your dunal cleaning at this time. So I do 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.039 that really come rain or come shine. Unless I'm taking 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.160 a deliberate break. Then I pause for lunch, and then 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.400 I go into the kind of the coaching marketing half 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:22.920 of my day. 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.360 And when you have that nine to noon time blocked 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.000 off for writing, I mean, are you actually really writing 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:30.680 for all of it? I mean, I guess you have 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:31.760 written a lot of books, but. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.400 Well, it's a good question. Yeah, So I don't believe 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.560 in you know, powering through for three straight hours. We 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.480 you know, the human attention span is about topping out. 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.279 It around forty five minutes, So I will write for 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.560 about forty five minutes, sometimes twenty five on five off, 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.240 take a break, you know, go get some water, use 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.000 the bathroom if I need to, and then come back. 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.960 So it's broken up, and it really depends on where 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.560 I'm at with a project. So sometimes I'm drafting. Sometimes 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:06.720 that writing time is for editing or doing proofreads, a 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.880 cold read, all of those kinds of things. And then 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.800 I do have breaks between projects, and I will use 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:16.280 that time, usually still for creative work, so to brainstorm 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.400 the next project, to let myself just journal on what 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.479 I see up ahead, that sort of thing. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.680 What does that brainstorming look like? I mean, you know, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:27.120 I think a lot of people think, well, I should 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.039 carve out time for brainstorming and thinking and deep work, 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.320 But I mean, what are you actually doing when you're 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.560 trying to come up with the next novel idea? 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.400 If that's like an entry on your to do list? 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.640 Well, I work with one hundreds, probably close to one 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.560 thousand writers at this point, primarily fiction writers, and I 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.320 know that the process is really different for everyone, but 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.640 I do some of the things that research shows us 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.719 fuels the creative fires. So sometimes it's walking right the 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.760 thing where you can kind of just think you're on autopilot. 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.160 For me, it's a lot of I have this big 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:05.040 notebook and I just write stuff down in a very 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.560 messy way. And then my little trick. And this is 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.000 where a lot of people are like, I would never 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.440 do this. I write the pitch for the book that 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.640 I'm interested in writing, next to see if there's a 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.919 there there. Yeah. So it's lots of different pieces. 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:20.760 Lots of different pieces. 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.080 Yeah, And then tell me a little bit about the 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:24.599 coaching part of your business. 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:25.719 What does that look like? 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.359 I love that. I love that piece. People are like, 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.000 how can you do two things? Well, kind of like 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.159 what you implied, I could not write for eight hours 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.160 a day. My brain just kind of turns off at 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.720 a certain point. And then I turn on the more social, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:46.760 kind of collaborative part. And I will usually meet with 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:51.320 clients on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Monday and Friday. Afternoons 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:55.480 are more for putting lessons together, looking at the curriculum, 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.279 doing some marketing, that sort of thing. Yeah, And so 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.880 I'll meet with clients and there's little breaks in between. 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.200 I send them notes, we come up with plans together, 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.920 and it's just a nice way to be connected because 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.680 writing is really a very solitary endeavor. 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.800 Absolutely. Yeah, when you say lesson plans, are you teaching classes? 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:19.160 Now? I do. I have a couple of groups, so 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.960 I have a mastermind that I run and a membership 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.040 and we'll have like a monthly lesson that we go over. 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:30.240 So there is a pretty heavy teaching component to it. Yeah, excellent, All. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:31.600 Right, We're going to take a quick ad break and 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.800 then we'll be back with more of Camille's productivity tips 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:45.280 for writers and others. I am back talking with novelist 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.400 Camille Pagan about all the ways that she does her 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.120 creative time that she runs her business. So Camille, maybe 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:55.640 you can talk a little bit about some of the 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.600 productivity tips you share with the creative people who work 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.880 with you, things that you have found to be effective 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.400 as people are trying to organize their lives and get 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:05.040 more done. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.840 So one of the big things I work on with 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.000 clients when they first come to me is getting over 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.760 this idea that so many of us have. The creativity 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.560 is just when the muse appears on your shoulder, right that, 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.920 especially with fiction, there's this thought that you should be inspired, 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.760 But what research really shows us is that the work 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.480 brings inspiration. So a big part of it is creating 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.920 a routine, which goes against what a lot of people 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:34.240 are thinking when they're approaching their fiction career. So some 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.960 of the things I've already mentioned having that set time, 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.000 so I really encourage people to do the same thing 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.840 at the same time every day. Not only are you 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.520 more likely to get it done, it really decreases the 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.280 transition time because your brain is like, this is just 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.240 what we do at this time. There's no oh, I'm 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.560 going to go look on email or browse Reddit. No, 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:57.920 it's nine o'clock. This is what we do. And it 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.360 takes a while to establish that no surprise time. Anyone 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.960 who knows habit research, you know, it can be a 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.760 good six weeks before you're like, and this is just 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.960 what I do at this time. But it's really important 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:09.440 to do that. 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.800 Yeah, and what about for people who are maybe beginning 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.320 their writing careers and might be doing something else as 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:16.559 a day job. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:18.960 How did they create that routine for writing? 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.120 So this was me right, I was a journalist. I 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:25.079 needed to make money as a journalist. When I first 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.800 started writing fiction, I had a newborn and I just 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.200 wrote for an hour every night, even though I'm not 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.240 a night person. It was the same sort of Okay, 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.000 I just need to do this at this time, and 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.120 that's how I got a book done, and it was 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.160 about four months for that first draft. It kicked off 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.160 my fiction career, and so now I'm like, you don't 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.679 need to have three hours. If you don't have three hours, 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.160 if you have half an hour, that can be enough 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.480 to get started. It's more about what do you do 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:54.839 eighty percent of the time. So that's the other piece 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:59.040 that I work on a lot with clients. The particular 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.199 writer who would hire a coach tends to be very ambitious, right. 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.880 It's not a casual lookie loot, someone who's like, let's go, 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:12.200 and there's often a lot of perfectionism built in, so 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.080 they're thinking, well, if I don't show up from let's 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.240 just say nine to ten every single day, five days 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:19.720 a week, maybe I'm just going to go for the 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.920 extra a plus and do it on Saturday too. Then 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.680 they fall right off the wagon. And so one of 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:27.680 the things that we really work on is aiming for 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:32.520 eighty percent, which really that client is actually looking for ninety, 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:34.120 but I'll say eighty just to get them down a 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.400 little bit of like, Okay, life is going to happen. 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.000 So I once heard I think it was Brian Tracy 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.319 who said this. He said, every two to three months, 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.600 just anticipate that something's going to fall apart. There's going 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.600 to be some emergency. Unfortunately, most of those emergencies are minor. 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.520 Sometimes they're major, but mostly minor stuff, but they'll do 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.240 rail you. So I'm really thinking about if I can 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.600 just show up even four days a week. If I've 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.400 said aside five, I'm going to get much farther than 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.360 I would if I was like, oh, it's got to 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:03.960 be perfect. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:06.840 It's so funny that you said that though about perfect, 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.880 because in that example of the person who wants to 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.040 be perfect, they're still doing it only five days a week. 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.600 Like people talk about their daily habits and they're not 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.240 aiming for seven and well that's not daily. I mean, 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.439 I mean, if you want to do something every single days, 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.080 but you know, for whatever reason, we have this idea 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.800 that we only do things on weekdays that count. 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:27.679 I'm very curious. Do you do you write on. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.760 Weekends as well, or as that do you generally try 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:30.480 to take those off. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:32.960 I recommend that people take at least one day a 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:34.920 week off. I don't really care what it is, but 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.000 this is the beauty of having done this. So I've 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.520 been coaching for about five years and was doing like 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.400 light consulting before that, and over time. This is not 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.680 true data, but it's a pretty big subset. I have 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.360 noticed that when people don't take breaks, their body takes 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.520 a break for them, that person often is heading toward burnout. 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:56.760 There's not a lot of time to have the space 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.240 to think through the creative project. And for me personally, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.160 I will write on a Sunday sometimes I usually take 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.959 Saturday off. Saturday is off and when i have the 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.120 breakthrough for the book where I'm not actively working on it, 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.760 I'm huntering in the yard, I'm hanging out with my kids, 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:13.960 and I'll be like, oh, okay, I see how to 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.000 fix it. So I am a fan of some time 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:17.680 off in there. 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:18.360 Yeah. 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.559 Well, it's just an envisioning somebody who might have a 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.000 job in a family and was trying to get started writing. 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:24.959 I mean, even if they had thirty forty five minutes 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:26.520 early in the morning, right, that could be part of 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.000 their morning routine Monday through Friday. Maybe you know, their 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.120 spouse could cover for them for two hours on a 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.040 Saturday that they could go work in a coffee shop 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.320 and then they take Sunday off. But that would still 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.720 be creating, you know, six hours a week, yes, to 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:44.360 work on fiction without it being or whatever other creative 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.440 endever you're doing. But that would give them a reasonable 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:48.080 amount of time. 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.280 Yeah. I think it's all about the planning too. So 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.800 I have one client who commutes two hours each way 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.200 in La just has a very demanding job and weekends 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.760 are when she writes, and so she's just looking at 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.480 two to three hours Saturday, two to three hours Sunday. 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.679 That's really a respite for her and she is getting 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.199 it done. So you know, there, if you have the desire, 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:11.600 there's a way to plan for it. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:12.600 Excellent. 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.000 Well, I'm curious what is the timeline of a book. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.719 Let's say that you came up with an idea, I mean, 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:18.720 what would happen then? 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.600 Well, so there are lots of different ways to do it. 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:24.320 And I don't teach a ton of craft, but I 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.640 am a fan of pitching, so I have a resource 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.280 on my coaching website, which is even beetter dot co. 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:32.679 That's called pitch pro tells you how to do this 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.880 all the way through. It's free, just writing kind of 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.000 your quick pitch for the idea so you can see 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.520 if there's something there. But some people are more like, 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.520 I want to outline it. That's fine. I think that's 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.080 an okay step too. But the big thing is just beginning. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:50.440 I cannot tell you how many people have come to 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.160 me and they're like, I've been thinking about this idea 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.719 for fourteen years, and I'm like, okay, let's start writing it. Like, 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.240 let's start right now, super imperfectly. You're not going to 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:00.920 know how to begin a boo. You're not going to 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.640 know what to do with the messy middle, and that's okay. 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:04.840 That's how you learn to do it. 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:09.000 Yeah, I would say, well, people probably get discouraged. I mean, 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.720 I've started various books myself that don't go anywhere. Oh so, 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.840 so I mean what would you say for people who 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.000 are like, I'm carving out the time and all that, 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.680 but then it's just it's not happening. It's you know, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.040 you're writing stuff, but it's not going anywhere. 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.880 I mean sometimes The true answer is to try a 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.600 different project, you know something. I don't think you need 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:33.320 a complicated structure, but I will recommend doing literally one 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.560 line for the middle, one line for the end, one 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.880 line for the beginning, right, like just to react what 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.000 is going to happen in the book? You can even 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.920 break that into three other pieces. But the reason why 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.000 people often get stuck it's either something that they don't 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.080 really care about. A lot of people come to me 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.280 they're like, I'm trying to write a romance stuff. I'm like, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.440 do you read romance? No? I hear it sells. I'm like, okay, 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.160 let's work on something different. But the other piece is 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.440 not knowing where to go. And if if you just 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.080 take you know, half an hour to figure out where 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.880 you are going first, that gets rid of that pressure 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:07.640 of like, oh crap, what do I do now? 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.920 Well, and you mentioned, you know what do people read like? 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:12.960 They write what they like to read. I'm very curious 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:14.920 how do you build reading into your life? 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.360 So, Laura, as you know, because you've written a bunch 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.000 of books too, I have a lot of blurb requests, 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.200 so there's a lot of reading for work. And that's 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.400 tricky because I'm getting better at saying no, but it's 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.960 one of the ways that I support authors is blurbing 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.080 for them. So I'm saying no a little more so 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.120 that I can find more time for pleasure reading. And 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.200 that is usually the evenings for me, and of course vacation, 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:40.840 I bring a big stack of books. 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:42.880 Well, you mentioned you were going to bed later with 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.360 your older kids. Now, I mean, what does an evening 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:46.200 look like for you? 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.560 That is, oh gosh, that's a little more variable than 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.800 my morning, which is something that I'm getting used to. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.720 It's like a type a person. I like everything kind 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.360 of planned out, and with teenagers there's no planning. So 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.080 one night we're up because you know, the sixteen year 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:02.920 old has taken the car out to a volleyball game 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.280 and we want to make sure she's home safe. But 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.760 I do really believe in downtime, and one of the 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:13.280 big changes I've made it really had clinical burnout earlier 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.000 this year, just had some personal challenges, lost some very 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.960 close to me, and so I know about like life 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.560 kind of throwing stuff at you. And one of my 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.400 big improvements talk about taking your day from good to amazing, 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.080 was having a real off switch. I had just casually 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.840 slid into work, going into my evening. Just check an 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.080 email here, look over these pages, read a blurb book, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.040 and both my therapist and my coach were like, okay, 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.880 let's stop at five. And so these days I stop 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.760 work at five no matter what, even when I have something. 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.560 Do you know the work gets done if you know 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.240 that there's a stop on your day. If you know 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.200 there's no stop, then it just slides into eleven o'clock. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:58.280 Well, what do you like to do in the evening? 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.880 I mean, if you were going to say, a pleasant 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:02.960 evening at home, you know what would that be? 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.879 Yeah, great question. A lot of socializing. So I really 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.400 love to go out for a drink with my husband 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.000 or see our friends, or get together with other writers 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.960 in the area. But that's maybe two or three days 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.280 a week at most. And then the other evenings are reading, 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.879 of course, hanging out with my kids, watching a show. 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.080 I'm a big fan of TV. People are like, oh, 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.480 you should only be reading no story, you can find 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:31.679 it anywhere film TV, Like, there's excellent storytelling there. Yeah, 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.879 And sometimes exercise, like more exercise if I've had a 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.560 really rough day, doing some yoga, going for a run, 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:39.720 like that is just the thing. 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:40.520 All right. 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.120 Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:47.840 and we'll be more back with more of Camille's tips. 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:52.639 Well, we are back. 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.919 This is Before Breakfast, the longer interview series I am doing, 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.480 and today we're talking with Camille Pagan, who is a 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.439 career novel list and it has been sharing lots of 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:07.000 tips for creative people on how to get things done 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:08.840 and avoid burnout. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:10.080 So, Camille, I'm curious. 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:11.960 You said you've made a couple of big changes recently, 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.879 and that's great, But what's your current biggest time management challenge. 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:20.280 Oh, that's a good question. So I think my biggest 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:26.200 time management challenge right now is scope creep. Really being 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.280 careful about not checking email on the weekend to catch 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.760 up when you work closely with writers. So I only 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:35.920 take about five one on one clients at a time, 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.840 and they can email me at any point, but I 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.240 have made it very clear with them that I'm only 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.000 going to email them back in the afternoons Monday through Friday. 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.720 So that's been one of the changes of like really 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.720 addressing that scope creep. When you care deeply about your clients, 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:54.959 you want to answer them right away. But that's not 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.800 necessarily healthy for you. So that is one of the 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.439 things I'm working on. And then just kind of like 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.840 what I said earlier, the variability of my family schedule 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.600 right now, when your kids are younger, you can kind 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:08.560 of like lay everything out. You're like, Okay, we've got 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.400 soccer on this night, we've got volleyball this night, We're 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.320 going to have a picnic on this day. Teenagers are 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.119 not like that. It's like, oh no, I'm going to 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:17.640 go do this thing. I've got to do this thing. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.920 Can you bring me hair stuff? I need a homecoming dress. 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.280 Like It's just quite a different schedule. So that has 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:25.960 been interesting. 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.520 Yeah, hopefully you get a little bit of notice on 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:29.520 the homecoming dress. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.720 Yes, my children know me well enough to know that 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:36.680 I need a little heads up, little. 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.440