Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
Speaker 2: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today
Speaker 2: is going to be another longer episode as part of
Speaker 2: my ongoing series where once a week or so I
Speaker 2: talk with somebody fascinating about how they take their days
Speaker 2: from great to awesome. So today I am excited to
Speaker 2: welcome Camille Pagan to the program.
Speaker 1: Camille is a career novelist and.
Speaker 2: The author of such books as Everything Must Go and
Speaker 2: Life and Other Near Death Experiences, and as a highly
Speaker 2: productive author of ten novels, she also coaches other writers
Speaker 2: on how to achieve their goals.
Speaker 1: So Camille, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Thanks Laura, happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Yes, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit
Speaker 1: about yourself?
Speaker 3: So, as you said, I am a novelist. I have
Speaker 3: written ten works of fifth and about a dozen of
Speaker 3: other people's nonfiction books that my name is not on.
Speaker 3: So I used to ghost write nonfiction too. I'm a
Speaker 3: former health journalist and editor. I've written for The New
Speaker 3: York Times, Real Simple, where I was health editor, Oprah,
Speaker 3: basically any magazine you can think of, as well as
Speaker 3: a bunch of newspapers so I really love health and
Speaker 3: psychology research still a big part of my coaching practice.
Speaker 3: And then for the second half of my day, I
Speaker 3: work with primarily novelists, but some other authors, children's authors,
Speaker 3: nonfiction authors, memoirs, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: So you've got a lot going on at Camille. I
Speaker 2: wonder if you know you could tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about your morning routine, because this is a show.
Speaker 1: Called Before Breakfast, so lots of our.
Speaker 2: Listeners have elaborate morning routines. Let's hear about yours.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so full disclosure, I am a morning person. I
Speaker 3: work with a lot of people who are like, oh,
Speaker 3: I just don't like the morning. It's my favorite time
Speaker 3: of day. It's when I can get the most done.
Speaker 3: But I am also the parent of two teenagers right now,
Speaker 3: so my mornings are a little later than they used
Speaker 3: to be because my kids are just up so late.
Speaker 3: I'm up usually around six. I am the first person
Speaker 3: in my family generally out of bed, and I get up,
Speaker 3: make myself some coffee, always go to my computer. Used
Speaker 3: to be a notebook, but these days I go directly
Speaker 3: to my habit tracker and kind of look at my goals.
Speaker 3: What do I need to do today. I mark little
Speaker 3: things such as what time did I get up, what's
Speaker 3: on the list for the day, and really just get
Speaker 3: my priority straight before I then get my kids out
Speaker 3: of bed, feed them, get them out the door, and
Speaker 3: then I go to the gym. That's really almost every morning.
Speaker 3: I do that before I write, and it just sets
Speaker 3: the day up for me. Even if it's twenty minute workout.
Speaker 3: I feel better doing that. And then I sit down
Speaker 3: around nine with another cup of coffee and I begin
Speaker 3: writing How to be the Exception to the Rule.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how far is the gym from your house? I'm
Speaker 2: curious what that adds into.
Speaker 3: About a ten minute drive, so it's about twenty minutes
Speaker 3: round trip. I live in ann Arbor. Everything is about
Speaker 3: ten minutes away. It's a beautiful thing compared to when
Speaker 3: I was in the city in New York and everything
Speaker 3: was forty five minutes away.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so you got the gym, get yourself, your
Speaker 2: cup of coffee. You're sitting down to work around nine o'clock.
Speaker 2: But you have both writing work and other kinds of
Speaker 2: work you do, So how do you organize your days
Speaker 2: to make both of those happen?
Speaker 3: Well, I'm pretty I want to say strict about it
Speaker 3: in that from nine to noon that is my writing time.
Speaker 3: I don't schedule other things in that time unless it's
Speaker 3: really an exception. So this podcast would be an exception.
Speaker 3: But if there's a doctor's appointment and I can do
Speaker 3: it before that period or after that period, it goes there.
Speaker 3: And that is something that if you look on my
Speaker 3: digital calendar or my paper calendar, you'll see blocked off.
Speaker 3: And I've been doing that for about like thirteen years
Speaker 3: at this point. It really is something that I still
Speaker 3: put down because if it's on the calendar, I will
Speaker 3: do it. And it's a reminder to me, like, don't
Speaker 3: schedule your dunal cleaning at this time. So I do
Speaker 3: that really come rain or come shine. Unless I'm taking
Speaker 3: a deliberate break. Then I pause for lunch, and then
Speaker 3: I go into the kind of the coaching marketing half
Speaker 3: of my day.
Speaker 2: And when you have that nine to noon time blocked
Speaker 2: off for writing, I mean, are you actually really writing
Speaker 2: for all of it? I mean, I guess you have
Speaker 2: written a lot of books, but.
Speaker 3: Well, it's a good question. Yeah, So I don't believe
Speaker 3: in you know, powering through for three straight hours. We
Speaker 3: you know, the human attention span is about topping out.
Speaker 3: It around forty five minutes, So I will write for
Speaker 3: about forty five minutes, sometimes twenty five on five off,
Speaker 3: take a break, you know, go get some water, use
Speaker 3: the bathroom if I need to, and then come back.
Speaker 3: So it's broken up, and it really depends on where
Speaker 3: I'm at with a project. So sometimes I'm drafting. Sometimes
Speaker 3: that writing time is for editing or doing proofreads, a
Speaker 3: cold read, all of those kinds of things. And then
Speaker 3: I do have breaks between projects, and I will use
Speaker 3: that time, usually still for creative work, so to brainstorm
Speaker 3: the next project, to let myself just journal on what
Speaker 3: I see up ahead, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: What does that brainstorming look like? I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people think, well, I should
Speaker 2: carve out time for brainstorming and thinking and deep work,
Speaker 2: But I mean, what are you actually doing when you're
Speaker 2: trying to come up with the next novel idea?
Speaker 1: If that's like an entry on your to do list?
Speaker 3: Well, I work with one hundreds, probably close to one
Speaker 3: thousand writers at this point, primarily fiction writers, and I
Speaker 3: know that the process is really different for everyone, but
Speaker 3: I do some of the things that research shows us
Speaker 3: fuels the creative fires. So sometimes it's walking right the
Speaker 3: thing where you can kind of just think you're on autopilot.
Speaker 3: For me, it's a lot of I have this big
Speaker 3: notebook and I just write stuff down in a very
Speaker 3: messy way. And then my little trick. And this is
Speaker 3: where a lot of people are like, I would never
Speaker 3: do this. I write the pitch for the book that
Speaker 3: I'm interested in writing, next to see if there's a
Speaker 3: there there. Yeah. So it's lots of different pieces.
Speaker 1: Lots of different pieces.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then tell me a little bit about the
Speaker 2: coaching part of your business.
Speaker 1: What does that look like?
Speaker 3: I love that. I love that piece. People are like,
Speaker 3: how can you do two things? Well, kind of like
Speaker 3: what you implied, I could not write for eight hours
Speaker 3: a day. My brain just kind of turns off at
Speaker 3: a certain point. And then I turn on the more social,
Speaker 3: kind of collaborative part. And I will usually meet with
Speaker 3: clients on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Monday and Friday. Afternoons
Speaker 3: are more for putting lessons together, looking at the curriculum,
Speaker 3: doing some marketing, that sort of thing. Yeah, And so
Speaker 3: I'll meet with clients and there's little breaks in between.
Speaker 3: I send them notes, we come up with plans together,
Speaker 3: and it's just a nice way to be connected because
Speaker 3: writing is really a very solitary endeavor.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, when you say lesson plans, are you teaching classes?
Speaker 3: Now? I do. I have a couple of groups, so
Speaker 3: I have a mastermind that I run and a membership
Speaker 3: and we'll have like a monthly lesson that we go over.
Speaker 3: So there is a pretty heavy teaching component to it. Yeah, excellent, All.
Speaker 2: Right, We're going to take a quick ad break and
Speaker 2: then we'll be back with more of Camille's productivity tips
Speaker 2: for writers and others. I am back talking with novelist
Speaker 2: Camille Pagan about all the ways that she does her
Speaker 2: creative time that she runs her business. So Camille, maybe
Speaker 2: you can talk a little bit about some of the
Speaker 2: productivity tips you share with the creative people who work
Speaker 2: with you, things that you have found to be effective
Speaker 2: as people are trying to organize their lives and get
Speaker 2: more done.
Speaker 3: So one of the big things I work on with
Speaker 3: clients when they first come to me is getting over
Speaker 3: this idea that so many of us have. The creativity
Speaker 3: is just when the muse appears on your shoulder, right that,
Speaker 3: especially with fiction, there's this thought that you should be inspired,
Speaker 3: But what research really shows us is that the work
Speaker 3: brings inspiration. So a big part of it is creating
Speaker 3: a routine, which goes against what a lot of people
Speaker 3: are thinking when they're approaching their fiction career. So some
Speaker 3: of the things I've already mentioned having that set time,
Speaker 3: so I really encourage people to do the same thing
Speaker 3: at the same time every day. Not only are you
Speaker 3: more likely to get it done, it really decreases the
Speaker 3: transition time because your brain is like, this is just
Speaker 3: what we do at this time. There's no oh, I'm
Speaker 3: going to go look on email or browse Reddit. No,
Speaker 3: it's nine o'clock. This is what we do. And it
Speaker 3: takes a while to establish that no surprise time. Anyone
Speaker 3: who knows habit research, you know, it can be a
Speaker 3: good six weeks before you're like, and this is just
Speaker 3: what I do at this time. But it's really important
Speaker 3: to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what about for people who are maybe beginning
Speaker 2: their writing careers and might be doing something else as
Speaker 2: a day job.
Speaker 1: How did they create that routine for writing?
Speaker 3: So this was me right, I was a journalist. I
Speaker 3: needed to make money as a journalist. When I first
Speaker 3: started writing fiction, I had a newborn and I just
Speaker 3: wrote for an hour every night, even though I'm not
Speaker 3: a night person. It was the same sort of Okay,
Speaker 3: I just need to do this at this time, and
Speaker 3: that's how I got a book done, and it was
Speaker 3: about four months for that first draft. It kicked off
Speaker 3: my fiction career, and so now I'm like, you don't
Speaker 3: need to have three hours. If you don't have three hours,
Speaker 3: if you have half an hour, that can be enough
Speaker 3: to get started. It's more about what do you do
Speaker 3: eighty percent of the time. So that's the other piece
Speaker 3: that I work on a lot with clients. The particular
Speaker 3: writer who would hire a coach tends to be very ambitious, right.
Speaker 3: It's not a casual lookie loot, someone who's like, let's go,
Speaker 3: and there's often a lot of perfectionism built in, so
Speaker 3: they're thinking, well, if I don't show up from let's
Speaker 3: just say nine to ten every single day, five days
Speaker 3: a week, maybe I'm just going to go for the
Speaker 3: extra a plus and do it on Saturday too. Then
Speaker 3: they fall right off the wagon. And so one of
Speaker 3: the things that we really work on is aiming for
Speaker 3: eighty percent, which really that client is actually looking for ninety,
Speaker 3: but I'll say eighty just to get them down a
Speaker 3: little bit of like, Okay, life is going to happen.
Speaker 3: So I once heard I think it was Brian Tracy
Speaker 3: who said this. He said, every two to three months,
Speaker 3: just anticipate that something's going to fall apart. There's going
Speaker 3: to be some emergency. Unfortunately, most of those emergencies are minor.
Speaker 3: Sometimes they're major, but mostly minor stuff, but they'll do
Speaker 3: rail you. So I'm really thinking about if I can
Speaker 3: just show up even four days a week. If I've
Speaker 3: said aside five, I'm going to get much farther than
Speaker 3: I would if I was like, oh, it's got to
Speaker 3: be perfect.
Speaker 2: It's so funny that you said that though about perfect,
Speaker 2: because in that example of the person who wants to
Speaker 2: be perfect, they're still doing it only five days a week.
Speaker 2: Like people talk about their daily habits and they're not
Speaker 2: aiming for seven and well that's not daily. I mean,
Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to do something every single days,
Speaker 2: but you know, for whatever reason, we have this idea
Speaker 2: that we only do things on weekdays that count.
Speaker 1: I'm very curious. Do you do you write on.
Speaker 2: Weekends as well, or as that do you generally try
Speaker 2: to take those off.
Speaker 3: I recommend that people take at least one day a
Speaker 3: week off. I don't really care what it is, but
Speaker 3: this is the beauty of having done this. So I've
Speaker 3: been coaching for about five years and was doing like
Speaker 3: light consulting before that, and over time. This is not
Speaker 3: true data, but it's a pretty big subset. I have
Speaker 3: noticed that when people don't take breaks, their body takes
Speaker 3: a break for them, that person often is heading toward burnout.
Speaker 3: There's not a lot of time to have the space
Speaker 3: to think through the creative project. And for me personally,
Speaker 3: I will write on a Sunday sometimes I usually take
Speaker 3: Saturday off. Saturday is off and when i have the
Speaker 3: breakthrough for the book where I'm not actively working on it,
Speaker 3: I'm huntering in the yard, I'm hanging out with my kids,
Speaker 3: and I'll be like, oh, okay, I see how to
Speaker 3: fix it. So I am a fan of some time
Speaker 3: off in there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, it's just an envisioning somebody who might have a
Speaker 2: job in a family and was trying to get started writing.
Speaker 2: I mean, even if they had thirty forty five minutes
Speaker 2: early in the morning, right, that could be part of
Speaker 2: their morning routine Monday through Friday. Maybe you know, their
Speaker 2: spouse could cover for them for two hours on a
Speaker 2: Saturday that they could go work in a coffee shop
Speaker 2: and then they take Sunday off. But that would still
Speaker 2: be creating, you know, six hours a week, yes, to
Speaker 2: work on fiction without it being or whatever other creative
Speaker 2: endever you're doing. But that would give them a reasonable
Speaker 2: amount of time.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's all about the planning too. So
Speaker 3: I have one client who commutes two hours each way
Speaker 3: in La just has a very demanding job and weekends
Speaker 3: are when she writes, and so she's just looking at
Speaker 3: two to three hours Saturday, two to three hours Sunday.
Speaker 3: That's really a respite for her and she is getting
Speaker 3: it done. So you know, there, if you have the desire,
Speaker 3: there's a way to plan for it.
Speaker 1: Excellent.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious what is the timeline of a book.
Speaker 2: Let's say that you came up with an idea, I mean,
Speaker 2: what would happen then?
Speaker 3: Well, so there are lots of different ways to do it.
Speaker 3: And I don't teach a ton of craft, but I
Speaker 3: am a fan of pitching, so I have a resource
Speaker 3: on my coaching website, which is even beetter dot co.
Speaker 3: That's called pitch pro tells you how to do this
Speaker 3: all the way through. It's free, just writing kind of
Speaker 3: your quick pitch for the idea so you can see
Speaker 3: if there's something there. But some people are more like,
Speaker 3: I want to outline it. That's fine. I think that's
Speaker 3: an okay step too. But the big thing is just beginning.
Speaker 3: I cannot tell you how many people have come to
Speaker 3: me and they're like, I've been thinking about this idea
Speaker 3: for fourteen years, and I'm like, okay, let's start writing it. Like,
Speaker 3: let's start right now, super imperfectly. You're not going to
Speaker 3: know how to begin a boo. You're not going to
Speaker 3: know what to do with the messy middle, and that's okay.
Speaker 3: That's how you learn to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, well, people probably get discouraged. I mean,
Speaker 2: I've started various books myself that don't go anywhere. Oh so,
Speaker 2: so I mean what would you say for people who
Speaker 2: are like, I'm carving out the time and all that,
Speaker 2: but then it's just it's not happening. It's you know,
Speaker 2: you're writing stuff, but it's not going anywhere.
Speaker 3: I mean sometimes The true answer is to try a
Speaker 3: different project, you know something. I don't think you need
Speaker 3: a complicated structure, but I will recommend doing literally one
Speaker 3: line for the middle, one line for the end, one
Speaker 3: line for the beginning, right, like just to react what
Speaker 3: is going to happen in the book? You can even
Speaker 3: break that into three other pieces. But the reason why
Speaker 3: people often get stuck it's either something that they don't
Speaker 3: really care about. A lot of people come to me
Speaker 3: they're like, I'm trying to write a romance stuff. I'm like,
Speaker 3: do you read romance? No? I hear it sells. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 3: let's work on something different. But the other piece is
Speaker 3: not knowing where to go. And if if you just
Speaker 3: take you know, half an hour to figure out where
Speaker 3: you are going first, that gets rid of that pressure
Speaker 3: of like, oh crap, what do I do now?
Speaker 2: Well, and you mentioned, you know what do people read like?
Speaker 2: They write what they like to read. I'm very curious
Speaker 2: how do you build reading into your life?
Speaker 3: So, Laura, as you know, because you've written a bunch
Speaker 3: of books too, I have a lot of blurb requests,
Speaker 3: so there's a lot of reading for work. And that's
Speaker 3: tricky because I'm getting better at saying no, but it's
Speaker 3: one of the ways that I support authors is blurbing
Speaker 3: for them. So I'm saying no a little more so
Speaker 3: that I can find more time for pleasure reading. And
Speaker 3: that is usually the evenings for me, and of course vacation,
Speaker 3: I bring a big stack of books.
Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned you were going to bed later with
Speaker 2: your older kids. Now, I mean, what does an evening
Speaker 2: look like for you?
Speaker 3: That is, oh gosh, that's a little more variable than
Speaker 3: my morning, which is something that I'm getting used to.
Speaker 3: It's like a type a person. I like everything kind
Speaker 3: of planned out, and with teenagers there's no planning. So
Speaker 3: one night we're up because you know, the sixteen year
Speaker 3: old has taken the car out to a volleyball game
Speaker 3: and we want to make sure she's home safe. But
Speaker 3: I do really believe in downtime, and one of the
Speaker 3: big changes I've made it really had clinical burnout earlier
Speaker 3: this year, just had some personal challenges, lost some very
Speaker 3: close to me, and so I know about like life
Speaker 3: kind of throwing stuff at you. And one of my
Speaker 3: big improvements talk about taking your day from good to amazing,
Speaker 3: was having a real off switch. I had just casually
Speaker 3: slid into work, going into my evening. Just check an
Speaker 3: email here, look over these pages, read a blurb book,
Speaker 3: and both my therapist and my coach were like, okay,
Speaker 3: let's stop at five. And so these days I stop
Speaker 3: work at five no matter what, even when I have something.
Speaker 3: Do you know the work gets done if you know
Speaker 3: that there's a stop on your day. If you know
Speaker 3: there's no stop, then it just slides into eleven o'clock.
Speaker 1: Well, what do you like to do in the evening?
Speaker 2: I mean, if you were going to say, a pleasant
Speaker 2: evening at home, you know what would that be?
Speaker 3: Yeah, great question. A lot of socializing. So I really
Speaker 3: love to go out for a drink with my husband
Speaker 3: or see our friends, or get together with other writers
Speaker 3: in the area. But that's maybe two or three days
Speaker 3: a week at most. And then the other evenings are reading,
Speaker 3: of course, hanging out with my kids, watching a show.
Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of TV. People are like, oh,
Speaker 3: you should only be reading no story, you can find
Speaker 3: it anywhere film TV, Like, there's excellent storytelling there. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And sometimes exercise, like more exercise if I've had a
Speaker 3: really rough day, doing some yoga, going for a run,
Speaker 3: like that is just the thing.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break
Speaker 2: and we'll be more back with more of Camille's tips.
Speaker 1: Well, we are back.
Speaker 2: This is Before Breakfast, the longer interview series I am doing,
Speaker 2: and today we're talking with Camille Pagan, who is a
Speaker 2: career novel list and it has been sharing lots of
Speaker 2: tips for creative people on how to get things done
Speaker 2: and avoid burnout.
Speaker 1: So, Camille, I'm curious.
Speaker 2: You said you've made a couple of big changes recently,
Speaker 2: and that's great, But what's your current biggest time management challenge.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good question. So I think my biggest
Speaker 3: time management challenge right now is scope creep. Really being
Speaker 3: careful about not checking email on the weekend to catch
Speaker 3: up when you work closely with writers. So I only
Speaker 3: take about five one on one clients at a time,
Speaker 3: and they can email me at any point, but I
Speaker 3: have made it very clear with them that I'm only
Speaker 3: going to email them back in the afternoons Monday through Friday.
Speaker 3: So that's been one of the changes of like really
Speaker 3: addressing that scope creep. When you care deeply about your clients,
Speaker 3: you want to answer them right away. But that's not
Speaker 3: necessarily healthy for you. So that is one of the
Speaker 3: things I'm working on. And then just kind of like
Speaker 3: what I said earlier, the variability of my family schedule
Speaker 3: right now, when your kids are younger, you can kind
Speaker 3: of like lay everything out. You're like, Okay, we've got
Speaker 3: soccer on this night, we've got volleyball this night, We're
Speaker 3: going to have a picnic on this day. Teenagers are
Speaker 3: not like that. It's like, oh no, I'm going to
Speaker 3: go do this thing. I've got to do this thing.
Speaker 3: Can you bring me hair stuff? I need a homecoming dress.
Speaker 3: Like It's just quite a different schedule. So that has
Speaker 3: been interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully you get a little bit of notice on
Speaker 2: the homecoming dress.
Speaker 3: Yes, my children know me well enough to know that
Speaker 3: I need a little heads up, little.
Speaker 1: Heads up on that one. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: So, Kamill, what is something you have done recently to
Speaker 2: take a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 3: Oh? So, one of the things that I have really
Speaker 3: been enjoying lately is opening up my fridays for things
Speaker 3: like this some self care. I do therapy on Fridays,
Speaker 3: So I really love that I actually looked for to it.
Speaker 3: I will often do like a UI class, like just
Speaker 3: opening up this work day for all of the stuff
Speaker 3: that hadn't been happening. And part of my initial instinct
Speaker 3: was to think, oh, that's so indulgent, but it has
Speaker 3: made me look forward to the entire week. It's really
Speaker 3: been amazing to have this day. And I do do
Speaker 3: some work in the day, but just having all of
Speaker 3: those other things where you're like, I don't know where
Speaker 3: this is going to go, it's lovely. Of course this
Speaker 3: is available to us as people who are self employed.
Speaker 3: I know it's trickier to do when you're working for someone,
Speaker 3: but it's been great.
Speaker 2: Well, I generally do recommend that people try to leave
Speaker 2: fridays fairly open and not necessarily for things that are
Speaker 2: for you. But it's just that stuff comes up right
Speaker 2: and you need a place to put it. And if
Speaker 2: all your life is completely packed, then you're going to
Speaker 2: have to bump something else or keep showing things forward,
Speaker 2: and next week is going to have crises of its own,
Speaker 2: so you kind of don't want to borrow too much time.
Speaker 1: From the future. It's good to leave some open space.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well said I like that idea of like a
Speaker 3: place to put it. That's exactly what Friday is for
Speaker 3: me right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious.
Speaker 2: When do you plan your time? I mean, are you
Speaker 2: more of a daily planner a weekly planner? I mean
Speaker 2: do you have a set time you do this?
Speaker 3: I do it on Sundays, so I sit down on
Speaker 3: Sundays sometimes Saturday because I'm just like, oh, let's go,
Speaker 3: and I do plan out the entire week. My appointments
Speaker 3: are fairly regular. I know that I see certain clients
Speaker 3: on certain days. I have a mastermind on a certain day.
Speaker 3: Those things are set, you know, months ahead usually, But
Speaker 3: the other pieces of like when are the kids doing
Speaker 3: certain things? When am I going to read the book
Speaker 3: that I have to blurb this week. I do all
Speaker 3: of that planning on Sunday so that I don't read Monday.
Speaker 3: On Monday, I have a sense of Okay, this is
Speaker 3: what I have to do, this is how it's going
Speaker 3: to get done. So that has really helped a lot
Speaker 3: of just getting rid of the Sunday skaries. Well.
Speaker 1: Also because you need to sit down Monday at nine
Speaker 1: am and write correct.
Speaker 3: That's right, it is not a time for planning. My
Speaker 3: Mondays are usually open too, and I love that that
Speaker 3: is not the place where I put things. It's the
Speaker 3: day where often I'm doing a deeper dive into a book,
Speaker 3: So if I want to read it first before I
Speaker 3: kind of add to it, I can have more of
Speaker 3: the day to do that.
Speaker 1: Awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well this all sounds very good, Camille. Maybe you
Speaker 2: can let our listeners know where they can find you.
Speaker 3: So I am at Camille Pagan dot com. My coaching
Speaker 3: site is evenbetter dot co. That's dot co and I'm
Speaker 3: most active on Instagram, which is just at Camille Pagan.
Speaker 1: Awesome.
Speaker 2: Well, Camille, thank you so much for joining us and
Speaker 2: to my Before Breakfast listeners. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: listening to this new interview series where we talk with
Speaker 2: fascinating people about how they take their days from great
Speaker 2: to awesome. Appreciate your sticking with me as I experiment
Speaker 2: with this and I welcome your feedback at Laura at
Speaker 2: Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime, this is Laura.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of
Speaker 2: our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've
Speaker 2: got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at
Speaker 2: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com Before.
Speaker 1: Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.