1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 2 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 2: is going to be another longer episode as part of 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: my ongoing series where once a week or so I 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 2: talk with somebody fascinating about how they take their days 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: from great to awesome. So today I am excited to 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: welcome Camille Pagan to the program. 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: Camille is a career novelist and. 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: The author of such books as Everything Must Go and 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 2: Life and Other Near Death Experiences, and as a highly 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: productive author of ten novels, she also coaches other writers 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: on how to achieve their goals. 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: So Camille, welcome to the show. 14 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 3: Thanks Laura, happy to be here. 15 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: Yes, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: about yourself? 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 3: So, as you said, I am a novelist. I have 18 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 3: written ten works of fifth and about a dozen of 19 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 3: other people's nonfiction books that my name is not on. 20 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 3: So I used to ghost write nonfiction too. I'm a 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 3: former health journalist and editor. I've written for The New 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 3: York Times, Real Simple, where I was health editor, Oprah, 23 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 3: basically any magazine you can think of, as well as 24 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 3: a bunch of newspapers so I really love health and 25 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 3: psychology research still a big part of my coaching practice. 26 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 3: And then for the second half of my day, I 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: work with primarily novelists, but some other authors, children's authors, 28 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 3: nonfiction authors, memoirs, that sort of thing. 29 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: So you've got a lot going on at Camille. I 30 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 2: wonder if you know you could tell us a little 31 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 2: bit about your morning routine, because this is a show. 32 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: Called Before Breakfast, so lots of our. 33 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: Listeners have elaborate morning routines. Let's hear about yours. 34 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so full disclosure, I am a morning person. I 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 3: work with a lot of people who are like, oh, 36 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 3: I just don't like the morning. It's my favorite time 37 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: of day. It's when I can get the most done. 38 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 3: But I am also the parent of two teenagers right now, 39 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 3: so my mornings are a little later than they used 40 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 3: to be because my kids are just up so late. 41 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: I'm up usually around six. I am the first person 42 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 3: in my family generally out of bed, and I get up, 43 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 3: make myself some coffee, always go to my computer. Used 44 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 3: to be a notebook, but these days I go directly 45 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 3: to my habit tracker and kind of look at my goals. 46 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 3: What do I need to do today. I mark little 47 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 3: things such as what time did I get up, what's 48 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 3: on the list for the day, and really just get 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: my priority straight before I then get my kids out 50 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 3: of bed, feed them, get them out the door, and 51 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 3: then I go to the gym. That's really almost every morning. 52 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 3: I do that before I write, and it just sets 53 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: the day up for me. Even if it's twenty minute workout. 54 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 3: I feel better doing that. And then I sit down 55 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: around nine with another cup of coffee and I begin 56 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 3: writing How to be the Exception to the Rule. 57 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, how far is the gym from your house? I'm 58 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: curious what that adds into. 59 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: About a ten minute drive, so it's about twenty minutes 60 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 3: round trip. I live in ann Arbor. Everything is about 61 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 3: ten minutes away. It's a beautiful thing compared to when 62 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: I was in the city in New York and everything 63 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 3: was forty five minutes away. 64 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: So yeah, so you got the gym, get yourself, your 65 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 2: cup of coffee. You're sitting down to work around nine o'clock. 66 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: But you have both writing work and other kinds of 67 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: work you do, So how do you organize your days 68 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: to make both of those happen? 69 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 3: Well, I'm pretty I want to say strict about it 70 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 3: in that from nine to noon that is my writing time. 71 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: I don't schedule other things in that time unless it's 72 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: really an exception. So this podcast would be an exception. 73 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 3: But if there's a doctor's appointment and I can do 74 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: it before that period or after that period, it goes there. 75 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 3: And that is something that if you look on my 76 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: digital calendar or my paper calendar, you'll see blocked off. 77 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: And I've been doing that for about like thirteen years 78 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: at this point. It really is something that I still 79 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 3: put down because if it's on the calendar, I will 80 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,839 Speaker 3: do it. And it's a reminder to me, like, don't 81 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: schedule your dunal cleaning at this time. So I do 82 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 3: that really come rain or come shine. Unless I'm taking 83 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 3: a deliberate break. Then I pause for lunch, and then 84 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: I go into the kind of the coaching marketing half 85 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 3: of my day. 86 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: And when you have that nine to noon time blocked 87 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: off for writing, I mean, are you actually really writing 88 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: for all of it? I mean, I guess you have 89 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: written a lot of books, but. 90 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 3: Well, it's a good question. Yeah, So I don't believe 91 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: in you know, powering through for three straight hours. We 92 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 3: you know, the human attention span is about topping out. 93 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 3: It around forty five minutes, So I will write for 94 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: about forty five minutes, sometimes twenty five on five off, 95 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: take a break, you know, go get some water, use 96 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: the bathroom if I need to, and then come back. 97 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: So it's broken up, and it really depends on where 98 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 3: I'm at with a project. So sometimes I'm drafting. Sometimes 99 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 3: that writing time is for editing or doing proofreads, a 100 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 3: cold read, all of those kinds of things. And then 101 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 3: I do have breaks between projects, and I will use 102 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 3: that time, usually still for creative work, so to brainstorm 103 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 3: the next project, to let myself just journal on what 104 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 3: I see up ahead, that sort of thing. 105 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: What does that brainstorming look like? I mean, you know, 106 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people think, well, I should 107 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 2: carve out time for brainstorming and thinking and deep work, 108 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: But I mean, what are you actually doing when you're 109 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: trying to come up with the next novel idea? 110 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: If that's like an entry on your to do list? 111 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: Well, I work with one hundreds, probably close to one 112 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: thousand writers at this point, primarily fiction writers, and I 113 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: know that the process is really different for everyone, but 114 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 3: I do some of the things that research shows us 115 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 3: fuels the creative fires. So sometimes it's walking right the 116 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 3: thing where you can kind of just think you're on autopilot. 117 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 3: For me, it's a lot of I have this big 118 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 3: notebook and I just write stuff down in a very 119 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: messy way. And then my little trick. And this is 120 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 3: where a lot of people are like, I would never 121 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: do this. I write the pitch for the book that 122 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 3: I'm interested in writing, next to see if there's a 123 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 3: there there. Yeah. So it's lots of different pieces. 124 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: Lots of different pieces. 125 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then tell me a little bit about the 126 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 2: coaching part of your business. 127 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: What does that look like? 128 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 3: I love that. I love that piece. People are like, 129 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: how can you do two things? Well, kind of like 130 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 3: what you implied, I could not write for eight hours 131 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 3: a day. My brain just kind of turns off at 132 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 3: a certain point. And then I turn on the more social, 133 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: kind of collaborative part. And I will usually meet with 134 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: clients on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Monday and Friday. Afternoons 135 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 3: are more for putting lessons together, looking at the curriculum, 136 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 3: doing some marketing, that sort of thing. Yeah, And so 137 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 3: I'll meet with clients and there's little breaks in between. 138 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: I send them notes, we come up with plans together, 139 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 3: and it's just a nice way to be connected because 140 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: writing is really a very solitary endeavor. 141 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, when you say lesson plans, are you teaching classes? 142 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: Now? I do. I have a couple of groups, so 143 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 3: I have a mastermind that I run and a membership 144 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: and we'll have like a monthly lesson that we go over. 145 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: So there is a pretty heavy teaching component to it. Yeah, excellent, All. 146 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: Right, We're going to take a quick ad break and 147 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: then we'll be back with more of Camille's productivity tips 148 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: for writers and others. I am back talking with novelist 149 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: Camille Pagan about all the ways that she does her 150 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: creative time that she runs her business. So Camille, maybe 151 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: you can talk a little bit about some of the 152 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 2: productivity tips you share with the creative people who work 153 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: with you, things that you have found to be effective 154 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: as people are trying to organize their lives and get 155 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: more done. 156 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: So one of the big things I work on with 157 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 3: clients when they first come to me is getting over 158 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: this idea that so many of us have. The creativity 159 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: is just when the muse appears on your shoulder, right that, 160 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: especially with fiction, there's this thought that you should be inspired, 161 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 3: But what research really shows us is that the work 162 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: brings inspiration. So a big part of it is creating 163 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 3: a routine, which goes against what a lot of people 164 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: are thinking when they're approaching their fiction career. So some 165 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 3: of the things I've already mentioned having that set time, 166 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: so I really encourage people to do the same thing 167 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 3: at the same time every day. Not only are you 168 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 3: more likely to get it done, it really decreases the 169 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: transition time because your brain is like, this is just 170 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: what we do at this time. There's no oh, I'm 171 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 3: going to go look on email or browse Reddit. No, 172 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: it's nine o'clock. This is what we do. And it 173 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 3: takes a while to establish that no surprise time. Anyone 174 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 3: who knows habit research, you know, it can be a 175 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 3: good six weeks before you're like, and this is just 176 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 3: what I do at this time. But it's really important 177 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 3: to do that. 178 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what about for people who are maybe beginning 179 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 2: their writing careers and might be doing something else as 180 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 2: a day job. 181 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: How did they create that routine for writing? 182 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: So this was me right, I was a journalist. I 183 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 3: needed to make money as a journalist. When I first 184 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: started writing fiction, I had a newborn and I just 185 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 3: wrote for an hour every night, even though I'm not 186 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: a night person. It was the same sort of Okay, 187 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: I just need to do this at this time, and 188 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: that's how I got a book done, and it was 189 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: about four months for that first draft. It kicked off 190 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: my fiction career, and so now I'm like, you don't 191 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 3: need to have three hours. If you don't have three hours, 192 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: if you have half an hour, that can be enough 193 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: to get started. It's more about what do you do 194 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 3: eighty percent of the time. So that's the other piece 195 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 3: that I work on a lot with clients. The particular 196 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 3: writer who would hire a coach tends to be very ambitious, right. 197 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 3: It's not a casual lookie loot, someone who's like, let's go, 198 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 3: and there's often a lot of perfectionism built in, so 199 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 3: they're thinking, well, if I don't show up from let's 200 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: just say nine to ten every single day, five days 201 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: a week, maybe I'm just going to go for the 202 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: extra a plus and do it on Saturday too. Then 203 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 3: they fall right off the wagon. And so one of 204 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 3: the things that we really work on is aiming for 205 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 3: eighty percent, which really that client is actually looking for ninety, 206 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 3: but I'll say eighty just to get them down a 207 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 3: little bit of like, Okay, life is going to happen. 208 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 3: So I once heard I think it was Brian Tracy 209 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 3: who said this. He said, every two to three months, 210 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: just anticipate that something's going to fall apart. There's going 211 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: to be some emergency. Unfortunately, most of those emergencies are minor. 212 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: Sometimes they're major, but mostly minor stuff, but they'll do 213 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: rail you. So I'm really thinking about if I can 214 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: just show up even four days a week. If I've 215 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 3: said aside five, I'm going to get much farther than 216 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: I would if I was like, oh, it's got to 217 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 3: be perfect. 218 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: It's so funny that you said that though about perfect, 219 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: because in that example of the person who wants to 220 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: be perfect, they're still doing it only five days a week. 221 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: Like people talk about their daily habits and they're not 222 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: aiming for seven and well that's not daily. I mean, 223 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to do something every single days, 224 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: but you know, for whatever reason, we have this idea 225 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: that we only do things on weekdays that count. 226 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: I'm very curious. Do you do you write on. 227 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 2: Weekends as well, or as that do you generally try 228 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 2: to take those off. 229 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 3: I recommend that people take at least one day a 230 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 3: week off. I don't really care what it is, but 231 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 3: this is the beauty of having done this. So I've 232 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 3: been coaching for about five years and was doing like 233 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: light consulting before that, and over time. This is not 234 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 3: true data, but it's a pretty big subset. I have 235 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: noticed that when people don't take breaks, their body takes 236 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: a break for them, that person often is heading toward burnout. 237 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: There's not a lot of time to have the space 238 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: to think through the creative project. And for me personally, 239 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: I will write on a Sunday sometimes I usually take 240 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 3: Saturday off. Saturday is off and when i have the 241 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: breakthrough for the book where I'm not actively working on it, 242 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 3: I'm huntering in the yard, I'm hanging out with my kids, 243 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 3: and I'll be like, oh, okay, I see how to 244 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 3: fix it. So I am a fan of some time 245 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 3: off in there. 246 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 247 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: Well, it's just an envisioning somebody who might have a 248 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: job in a family and was trying to get started writing. 249 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 2: I mean, even if they had thirty forty five minutes 250 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: early in the morning, right, that could be part of 251 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: their morning routine Monday through Friday. Maybe you know, their 252 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: spouse could cover for them for two hours on a 253 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: Saturday that they could go work in a coffee shop 254 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 2: and then they take Sunday off. But that would still 255 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: be creating, you know, six hours a week, yes, to 256 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: work on fiction without it being or whatever other creative 257 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: endever you're doing. But that would give them a reasonable 258 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 2: amount of time. 259 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's all about the planning too. So 260 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 3: I have one client who commutes two hours each way 261 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 3: in La just has a very demanding job and weekends 262 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 3: are when she writes, and so she's just looking at 263 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 3: two to three hours Saturday, two to three hours Sunday. 264 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 3: That's really a respite for her and she is getting 265 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 3: it done. So you know, there, if you have the desire, 266 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: there's a way to plan for it. 267 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: Excellent. 268 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious what is the timeline of a book. 269 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 2: Let's say that you came up with an idea, I mean, 270 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 2: what would happen then? 271 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 3: Well, so there are lots of different ways to do it. 272 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 3: And I don't teach a ton of craft, but I 273 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 3: am a fan of pitching, so I have a resource 274 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 3: on my coaching website, which is even beetter dot co. 275 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 3: That's called pitch pro tells you how to do this 276 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 3: all the way through. It's free, just writing kind of 277 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 3: your quick pitch for the idea so you can see 278 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 3: if there's something there. But some people are more like, 279 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: I want to outline it. That's fine. I think that's 280 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 3: an okay step too. But the big thing is just beginning. 281 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 3: I cannot tell you how many people have come to 282 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: me and they're like, I've been thinking about this idea 283 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 3: for fourteen years, and I'm like, okay, let's start writing it. Like, 284 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 3: let's start right now, super imperfectly. You're not going to 285 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: know how to begin a boo. You're not going to 286 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: know what to do with the messy middle, and that's okay. 287 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 3: That's how you learn to do it. 288 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, well, people probably get discouraged. I mean, 289 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: I've started various books myself that don't go anywhere. Oh so, 290 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: so I mean what would you say for people who 291 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: are like, I'm carving out the time and all that, 292 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: but then it's just it's not happening. It's you know, 293 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: you're writing stuff, but it's not going anywhere. 294 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: I mean sometimes The true answer is to try a 295 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: different project, you know something. I don't think you need 296 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: a complicated structure, but I will recommend doing literally one 297 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: line for the middle, one line for the end, one 298 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 3: line for the beginning, right, like just to react what 299 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: is going to happen in the book? You can even 300 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: break that into three other pieces. But the reason why 301 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: people often get stuck it's either something that they don't 302 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 3: really care about. A lot of people come to me 303 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 3: they're like, I'm trying to write a romance stuff. I'm like, 304 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: do you read romance? No? I hear it sells. I'm like, okay, 305 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: let's work on something different. But the other piece is 306 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 3: not knowing where to go. And if if you just 307 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 3: take you know, half an hour to figure out where 308 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 3: you are going first, that gets rid of that pressure 309 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: of like, oh crap, what do I do now? 310 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 2: Well, and you mentioned, you know what do people read like? 311 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: They write what they like to read. I'm very curious 312 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: how do you build reading into your life? 313 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: So, Laura, as you know, because you've written a bunch 314 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: of books too, I have a lot of blurb requests, 315 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: so there's a lot of reading for work. And that's 316 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 3: tricky because I'm getting better at saying no, but it's 317 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: one of the ways that I support authors is blurbing 318 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: for them. So I'm saying no a little more so 319 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 3: that I can find more time for pleasure reading. And 320 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: that is usually the evenings for me, and of course vacation, 321 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 3: I bring a big stack of books. 322 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned you were going to bed later with 323 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: your older kids. Now, I mean, what does an evening 324 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: look like for you? 325 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: That is, oh gosh, that's a little more variable than 326 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: my morning, which is something that I'm getting used to. 327 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 3: It's like a type a person. I like everything kind 328 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 3: of planned out, and with teenagers there's no planning. So 329 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: one night we're up because you know, the sixteen year 330 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 3: old has taken the car out to a volleyball game 331 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: and we want to make sure she's home safe. But 332 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 3: I do really believe in downtime, and one of the 333 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 3: big changes I've made it really had clinical burnout earlier 334 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 3: this year, just had some personal challenges, lost some very 335 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: close to me, and so I know about like life 336 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: kind of throwing stuff at you. And one of my 337 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 3: big improvements talk about taking your day from good to amazing, 338 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: was having a real off switch. I had just casually 339 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 3: slid into work, going into my evening. Just check an 340 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: email here, look over these pages, read a blurb book, 341 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 3: and both my therapist and my coach were like, okay, 342 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 3: let's stop at five. And so these days I stop 343 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 3: work at five no matter what, even when I have something. 344 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 3: Do you know the work gets done if you know 345 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: that there's a stop on your day. If you know 346 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: there's no stop, then it just slides into eleven o'clock. 347 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: Well, what do you like to do in the evening? 348 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: I mean, if you were going to say, a pleasant 349 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: evening at home, you know what would that be? 350 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, great question. A lot of socializing. So I really 351 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 3: love to go out for a drink with my husband 352 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 3: or see our friends, or get together with other writers 353 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 3: in the area. But that's maybe two or three days 354 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: a week at most. And then the other evenings are reading, 355 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 3: of course, hanging out with my kids, watching a show. 356 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of TV. People are like, oh, 357 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 3: you should only be reading no story, you can find 358 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 3: it anywhere film TV, Like, there's excellent storytelling there. Yeah, 359 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 3: And sometimes exercise, like more exercise if I've had a 360 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: really rough day, doing some yoga, going for a run, 361 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 3: like that is just the thing. 362 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: All right. 363 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break 364 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: and we'll be more back with more of Camille's tips. 365 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: Well, we are back. 366 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: This is Before Breakfast, the longer interview series I am doing, 367 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: and today we're talking with Camille Pagan, who is a 368 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 2: career novel list and it has been sharing lots of 369 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: tips for creative people on how to get things done 370 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: and avoid burnout. 371 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: So, Camille, I'm curious. 372 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: You said you've made a couple of big changes recently, 373 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 2: and that's great, But what's your current biggest time management challenge. 374 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good question. So I think my biggest 375 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 3: time management challenge right now is scope creep. Really being 376 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: careful about not checking email on the weekend to catch 377 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 3: up when you work closely with writers. So I only 378 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: take about five one on one clients at a time, 379 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 3: and they can email me at any point, but I 380 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: have made it very clear with them that I'm only 381 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 3: going to email them back in the afternoons Monday through Friday. 382 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 3: So that's been one of the changes of like really 383 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 3: addressing that scope creep. When you care deeply about your clients, 384 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 3: you want to answer them right away. But that's not 385 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 3: necessarily healthy for you. So that is one of the 386 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 3: things I'm working on. And then just kind of like 387 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 3: what I said earlier, the variability of my family schedule 388 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: right now, when your kids are younger, you can kind 389 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 3: of like lay everything out. You're like, Okay, we've got 390 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 3: soccer on this night, we've got volleyball this night, We're 391 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: going to have a picnic on this day. Teenagers are 392 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 3: not like that. It's like, oh no, I'm going to 393 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 3: go do this thing. I've got to do this thing. 394 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: Can you bring me hair stuff? I need a homecoming dress. 395 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 3: Like It's just quite a different schedule. So that has 396 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 3: been interesting. 397 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully you get a little bit of notice on 398 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: the homecoming dress. 399 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: Yes, my children know me well enough to know that 400 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 3: I need a little heads up, little. 401 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: Heads up on that one. Yeah, exactly. 402 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: So, Kamill, what is something you have done recently to 403 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 2: take a day from great to awesome? 404 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 3: Oh? So, one of the things that I have really 405 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 3: been enjoying lately is opening up my fridays for things 406 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 3: like this some self care. I do therapy on Fridays, 407 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 3: So I really love that I actually looked for to it. 408 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 3: I will often do like a UI class, like just 409 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 3: opening up this work day for all of the stuff 410 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: that hadn't been happening. And part of my initial instinct 411 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 3: was to think, oh, that's so indulgent, but it has 412 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: made me look forward to the entire week. It's really 413 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 3: been amazing to have this day. And I do do 414 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 3: some work in the day, but just having all of 415 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 3: those other things where you're like, I don't know where 416 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 3: this is going to go, it's lovely. Of course this 417 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 3: is available to us as people who are self employed. 418 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 3: I know it's trickier to do when you're working for someone, 419 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 3: but it's been great. 420 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 2: Well, I generally do recommend that people try to leave 421 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: fridays fairly open and not necessarily for things that are 422 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: for you. But it's just that stuff comes up right 423 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: and you need a place to put it. And if 424 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: all your life is completely packed, then you're going to 425 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: have to bump something else or keep showing things forward, 426 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 2: and next week is going to have crises of its own, 427 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: so you kind of don't want to borrow too much time. 428 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 1: From the future. It's good to leave some open space. 429 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, well said I like that idea of like a 430 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 3: place to put it. That's exactly what Friday is for 431 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: me right now. 432 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious. 433 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 2: When do you plan your time? I mean, are you 434 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: more of a daily planner a weekly planner? I mean 435 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: do you have a set time you do this? 436 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 3: I do it on Sundays, so I sit down on 437 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,959 Speaker 3: Sundays sometimes Saturday because I'm just like, oh, let's go, 438 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 3: and I do plan out the entire week. My appointments 439 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 3: are fairly regular. I know that I see certain clients 440 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 3: on certain days. I have a mastermind on a certain day. 441 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: Those things are set, you know, months ahead usually, But 442 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 3: the other pieces of like when are the kids doing 443 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 3: certain things? When am I going to read the book 444 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 3: that I have to blurb this week. I do all 445 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 3: of that planning on Sunday so that I don't read Monday. 446 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: On Monday, I have a sense of Okay, this is 447 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 3: what I have to do, this is how it's going 448 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 3: to get done. So that has really helped a lot 449 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 3: of just getting rid of the Sunday skaries. Well. 450 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: Also because you need to sit down Monday at nine 451 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: am and write correct. 452 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 3: That's right, it is not a time for planning. My 453 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: Mondays are usually open too, and I love that that 454 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 3: is not the place where I put things. It's the 455 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 3: day where often I'm doing a deeper dive into a book, 456 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: So if I want to read it first before I 457 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: kind of add to it, I can have more of 458 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: the day to do that. 459 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: Awesome. 460 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well this all sounds very good, Camille. Maybe you 461 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 2: can let our listeners know where they can find you. 462 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 3: So I am at Camille Pagan dot com. My coaching 463 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 3: site is evenbetter dot co. That's dot co and I'm 464 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 3: most active on Instagram, which is just at Camille Pagan. 465 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: Awesome. 466 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: Well, Camille, thank you so much for joining us and 467 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 2: to my Before Breakfast listeners. Thank you so much for 468 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: listening to this new interview series where we talk with 469 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: fascinating people about how they take their days from great 470 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: to awesome. Appreciate your sticking with me as I experiment 471 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 2: with this and I welcome your feedback at Laura at 472 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 2: Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime, this is Laura. 473 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of 474 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 2: our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've 475 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 2: got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at 476 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 2: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com Before. 477 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, 478 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 479 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.