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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe mccormickin It's Saturday. Time

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Speaker 1: to go into the vault for a classic episode of

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. I think we're doing two

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Speaker 1: episodes today. Are these gonna air back to back? That's right?

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Speaker 1: This is uh. We've taken the Christmas stocking and we've

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Speaker 1: just double stuffed it here because last year we did

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Speaker 1: a two parter titled is Santa a God? And the

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Speaker 1: only way you could figet how to make it work

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Speaker 1: scheduling wise to feature it as a vault episode and

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Speaker 1: get it all out before Christmas was to just give

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Speaker 1: you both episodes as one today. This was one of

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Speaker 1: my favorites we did last year. I remember having a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun with this. Yeah, this, this was this

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Speaker 1: is what. This is one of my favorite holiday episodes.

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Speaker 1: I think we've ever done it. Originally published twelve nineteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and twelve twenty nineteen. Let's let's head down

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Speaker 1: that chimney. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio's House to Work. Hey you

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Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is

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Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today Santa Claus

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Speaker 1: is coming to town. That's right. This is an episode

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Speaker 1: about Santa Claus. It's also an episode about gods and

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Speaker 1: our ideas about God's our god concepts and what that

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Speaker 1: that all means. And we are going to get into

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Speaker 1: the question of whether Santa is a god or not.

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Speaker 1: I do want to just have a couple of quick

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Speaker 1: reminders here as we dive into this one. First of all, yes,

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Speaker 1: this episode it has to do with Santa, but if

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Speaker 1: you are attempted to listen to it outside of the

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Speaker 1: holiday season, no worries, because there's gonna be a lot

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Speaker 1: of talk that does not directly apply to Santa Claus. Sure,

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Speaker 1: this is an episode about the cognitive science of religion.

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Speaker 1: And secondly, we will be discussing the magic of Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus in this episode, so just keep that in mind, parents,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening with your children. Sure, alright, So most

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Speaker 1: of us would not say that anti clause as a god, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean we we don't necessarily or maybe we're not

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Speaker 1: always able to define God in a dictionary definition kind

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Speaker 1: of way. But you have an intuitive sense of how

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Speaker 1: this word is used, and for some reason, Santa Claus

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Speaker 1: doesn't usually fit into that definition, right, that intuitive definition. Right,

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Speaker 1: even if you are, let's say, a child who is

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Speaker 1: a Santa fundamentalist who believes in, you know, very literally

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Speaker 1: in Santa Claus, even then I don't think they would

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Speaker 1: necessarily confuse the the idea of Santa Claus with the

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Speaker 1: idea of say, the Judeo Christian deity. Sure, but on

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Speaker 1: the same hand, and then the same hand is as

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Speaker 1: we're going to discuss in this episode, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of similarity. So first of all, I want to

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Speaker 1: just talk a little bit about Santa Claus, this magical being,

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Speaker 1: the factors so heavily into Western holiday traditions as well

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Speaker 1: as traditions around the world that have been influenced by

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Speaker 1: the notion of the Great Jolly Old Elf. The exact

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Speaker 1: mythology is going to vary, of course, but but here

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Speaker 1: are just some of the often highlighted aspects of the

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Speaker 1: mythos in me. Okay, first of all, Santa is at

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Speaker 1: the very least extremely long lived, if not undying, immortal

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Speaker 1: or eternal. I mean, he's been doing this thing for

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Speaker 1: a long time, that's right. Secondly, uh, Santa is I

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Speaker 1: guess you would say pan sofock or all knowing. He

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Speaker 1: knows when you were sleeping, he knows when you're awake.

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Speaker 1: He knows if you've been bad or good. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure he's supposed to know your inner thoughts, but he

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Speaker 1: is privy to an awful lot. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of conceptions of Santa would even give him like inner

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Speaker 1: psychic access. Yeah, I mean if if Santa can, well,

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Speaker 1: Santa can at least see what you're doing when other

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Speaker 1: people aren't around to see what you're doing. He sees

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Speaker 1: what you're doing in private, right, Yes, that that seems

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Speaker 1: like that's verging on I mean, it's got to be

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Speaker 1: like supernatural. They're oh, yeah, absolutely, It's not like he's

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Speaker 1: just getting reports about your behavior, right. He definitely has

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Speaker 1: supernatural abilities. It just he comes down to whether he

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Speaker 1: can see inside your brain or not, if he can

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Speaker 1: see your thoughts at all, if he can anticipate your

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Speaker 1: actions based on that information. Also, he receives mail from

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Speaker 1: all over the world, often through magical means, or at

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Speaker 1: least magical variations of the postal system. Uh, and you

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Speaker 1: know that that includes things like letters can find him

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Speaker 1: no matter where you mail them. You can mail them

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Speaker 1: at the zoo, you can mail them at home, you

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Speaker 1: can mail them through the chimney, things like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: another thing that's very common about God's is they tend

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Speaker 1: to live in inaccessible places, if not in a like

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Speaker 1: extra dimensional, completely fundamentally inaccessible place, even when they live

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Speaker 1: on Earth, they tend to be at the top of

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Speaker 1: a mountain or at the bottom of the ocean or

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Speaker 1: something like. Yeah. I think that the mountaintop God as

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Speaker 1: as an excellent example, because in the modern sense, what

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Speaker 1: is the top of the world mountain? It is the

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Speaker 1: North Pole, of course, which is which is where Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus is said to reside, and it is an insanely

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Speaker 1: hostile environment um fighting off polar bears, and he seems

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Speaker 1: to reside there without any outside support aside from the

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Speaker 1: milk and cookies that he collects every year and of

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Speaker 1: course the big ones. Santa can travel around the entire

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Speaker 1: world and visit every home in a single evening every year.

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking about this as a child and thinking like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, that sounds really difficult, but it's probably

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Speaker 1: not impossible, right. It seemed within the stretching of plausibility

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Speaker 1: to me, right, Like, the magic makes sense at first,

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Speaker 1: and then you start thinking about the magic and you're like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is some potent magic. And then along the way,

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Speaker 1: you know, you you introduce some science fiction concepts, and

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Speaker 1: you introduce some some elaborate visions of the nature of time,

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Speaker 1: and then okay, you can create some versions of it

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Speaker 1: that makes a little bit more sense perhaps, but at

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Speaker 1: the very least, Santa has amazing abilities to travel in

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Speaker 1: ways that immortal human cannot, of course, and there's there's

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Speaker 1: much more than that that we might add, based not

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Speaker 1: only on beliefs, but on films as well that features

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Speaker 1: Santa Claus. So he has been spotted in the presence

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Speaker 1: of in human beast men, as we discussed in our

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Speaker 1: Crampus episode. Okay, sometimes appears in the Guys of Tim

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Speaker 1: Allen and Goldbirds. That's true. Uh, also Whole Cogan and

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Speaker 1: Whole Coogan play of Santa Claus. Oh, I don't remember

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Speaker 1: that Goldberg. Definitely in the movie Santa Sleigh, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, you can probably guess what it's about. Also,

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Speaker 1: Santa can communicate with magical deer that also fly and

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Speaker 1: enable him to fly he can control robots, as he

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Speaker 1: has the power over all toys and machines that might

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Speaker 1: be argued to be toys. This, of course from Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus versus the Martians uh and imports in that Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus is also drawn into an interplanetary dispute. Santa associates

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Speaker 1: with known wizards such as Merlin. Uh. If he's watched

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Speaker 1: the old Mexican Santa Claus film, we of course see

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Speaker 1: him hanging out with murder and then dealing with demons,

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Speaker 1: engaging in direct conflict with at least demons who serve

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Speaker 1: the Christian Devil, if not the Christian Devil himself. Oh no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's straight up fights demons in the movie, Oh that Devil.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's like Gandal versus the Bell Rock. It's

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Speaker 1: Santa versus whatever that demon's name is. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: he gets into some serious theological territory in that film.

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Speaker 1: He also may or may not play the saxophone when

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Speaker 1: visiting Asian countries, which isn't as remarkable, I guess, but

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Speaker 1: it's a It's an additional wrinkle in the myth of Santa. Now,

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Speaker 1: we're obviously not the first people to raise these parallels

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Speaker 1: between the Santa clause that brings magical delight to children

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Speaker 1: and all over the place and uh, and you know,

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Speaker 1: basically gods that are found throughout history all over the world.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I would say it's almost like a cliche

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Speaker 1: joke at this point to kind of uh a point

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Speaker 1: out that Santa Claus and God are in some sense

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Speaker 1: interchangeable to too many children. Yeah, My favorite example of

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Speaker 1: this goes back to the year two thousand and one

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Speaker 1: of our shared favorite shows, The Simpsons. There's the episode

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Speaker 1: where Bart goes in to his bedroom and he kneels

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Speaker 1: by his bed, and then he begins to pray, and

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Speaker 1: he says, quote, dear Santa, if you bring me lots

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Speaker 1: of good stuff, I promised not to do anything bad

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Speaker 1: between now and when I wake up. Amen. It's the

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Speaker 1: best kind of Simpsons joke because there's a joke in

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Speaker 1: what he says between now and when I wake up.

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Speaker 1: But actually, the even funnier part is the very concept

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Speaker 1: of him saying it that he's praying to Santa in

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Speaker 1: the first place. Yeah. And one of the things I

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Speaker 1: always loved about it is is that it takes me

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Speaker 1: a second to catch it, you know, because it's not

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Speaker 1: instantly clear that it's something out of the ordinary. I

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Speaker 1: think I vaguely remember almost doing this at one point

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Speaker 1: as a child, even uh, sort of at least subconsciously

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Speaker 1: getting the idea confused. You know, praying to Santa is

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Speaker 1: only a few degrees to the left of sending a

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Speaker 1: letter to an entity that can observe your every move,

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Speaker 1: And it's not that different from the idea of praying

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Speaker 1: to this divine entity that you're told about, say it's

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Speaker 1: Sunday school. Yeah, And so for the rest of the

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Speaker 1: episode today, we're going to be focusing on a paper

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Speaker 1: that actually asks the question of, well, in the terms

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Speaker 1: of cognitive science of religion, does Santa Claus actually qualify

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Speaker 1: as a god or not? Does he match the other

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Speaker 1: things that would be called a god within this uh,

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Speaker 1: this sort of like scientific academic framework. In particular, we're

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Speaker 1: going to be looking at an article by experimental psychologist

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Speaker 1: Justin Barrett published in the Journal of Cognition and Culture

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand and eight, and and Barrett is

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Speaker 1: an interesting character here. He wrote a book titled why

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Speaker 1: would Anyone Believe in God? And he himself is a Christian,

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Speaker 1: but he also sees God as a byproduct of our

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Speaker 1: mental architecture, and he sees this in a way where

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Speaker 1: these two concepts have room to coexist. Yeah, he seems

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Speaker 1: like an interesting figure to me. Like, having read a

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Speaker 1: bit about him, I think he's in the spirit of

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Speaker 1: those who would believe of that, Like the existence of

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Speaker 1: God is not in conflict with naturalistic explanations for religion. Yeah. Like,

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Speaker 1: for instance, when he was asked about about this potential

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Speaker 1: conflict in in a two thousand seven New York Times

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Speaker 1: article titled Darwin's God, Uh, he said the following quote.

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Speaker 1: Christian theology teaches that people were crafted by God to

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Speaker 1: be in a loving relationship with him and other people.

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Speaker 1: Why wouldn't God then design us in such a way

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Speaker 1: as to find belief in divinity? Quite natural? Suppose science

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Speaker 1: produces a convincing account for why I think my wife

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Speaker 1: loves me? Should I then stop believing that she does?

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Speaker 1: Which I thought was a nice answer to that question. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting, like that you can you can put together

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Speaker 1: all kinds of uh, coherent scientific explanations for what the

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Speaker 1: feeling of love is, Why this is an emotion that's

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Speaker 1: generated by the primate brain, What kind of relationship. It

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Speaker 1: has to you know, the evolutionary pressures that created our

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Speaker 1: bodies and our brains. But at the same time, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't make the love of not real. And so applying

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Speaker 1: that to religion, you could say, okay, well, here's a

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Speaker 1: list of reasons we think that, like evolution, natural selection

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Speaker 1: could have shaped our brains to be geared toward religion. Uh,

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Speaker 1: unless you have totally mechanistic, natural type explanations for where

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Speaker 1: religion comes from. And yet you could still, under this

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Speaker 1: theory potentially believe your religion to be true, or multiple

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Speaker 1: religions to be true. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that

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Speaker 1: that that goes along with the way we tend to

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Speaker 1: approach religious concepts on this show. I think that that

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Speaker 1: we can certainly explain where they come from. They can

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Speaker 1: we can discuss, uh, you know, how they evolve over

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Speaker 1: time and the different influences wound up in them. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time we can respect that yes, this,

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Speaker 1: this story, this myth, this idea, this concept can still

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Speaker 1: be very weighty and very important, uh to the individuals

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Speaker 1: that value it. Well. Yeah, and and that also though,

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Speaker 1: gets into another layer of complexity, which is what it

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Speaker 1: actually means to quote believe in a religion like you

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Speaker 1: believe in a religion, does not necessarily mean that you

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Speaker 1: accept say it's story of the creation of the world

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Speaker 1: as literally true, or that it suggests or that it

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Speaker 1: that it's propositions about metaphysics are literally physically real. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And and just to to drive home a fact here

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Speaker 1: again parental warning, Santa Claus is not real in the

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Speaker 1: sense that that Santa Claus does not physically exist in

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Speaker 1: the world. He's not actually doing these these uh, these

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Speaker 1: great deeds that we attribute to him. But on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, he is an obviously an important cultural idea.

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Speaker 1: And for my own part, like you know, I try

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Speaker 1: and drive home the importance of mythology and belief alongside

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Speaker 1: the importance of you know, of a fundamental reality I guess,

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Speaker 1: and scientific reality when talking about these things with with

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Speaker 1: my own son. Uh, you know that currently he's really

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Speaker 1: invested in the idea of Santa But I am hopefully

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Speaker 1: laying the groundwork that in Santa falls from the lofty

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Speaker 1: realm of of presumed magical reality. He's not going to

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Speaker 1: plumb it into the hellish depths of lies and inaccuracies.

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Speaker 1: He will instead fall into this realm of mythological um

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Speaker 1: and this this realm of magical concepts that are valued

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Speaker 1: by human culture. If that makes sense, Well, yeah, Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus is not physically real, but the magic of Santa

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Speaker 1: Claus is absolutely real. Like it's one of the most

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Speaker 1: powerful mind states that I can recall from my entire

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Speaker 1: life is the anticipation magic of the Christmas season when

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Speaker 1: I was young. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I also remember

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Speaker 1: sort of going through the the struggle of then realizing, Okay,

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Speaker 1: Santa Claus is not objectively real, but then gradually then

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Speaker 1: growing to to realize that, okay, the idea of Santa

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Speaker 1: Claulaus can still be very important and can still be

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Speaker 1: very real in that sense, in the way the same

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Speaker 1: way that you know, one grows to learn that that

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Speaker 1: fictional characters and uh and uh and other stories can

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Speaker 1: be extremely important to us in a way that where

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Speaker 1: there is sometimes even more important than the flesh and

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Speaker 1: blood individuals and in very real events in the world.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, I want to get back to Barrett's work again.

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Speaker 1: He's working in the realm of cognitive science of religion, exploring,

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Speaker 1: in his words quote why religious thoughts and actions only

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Speaker 1: occupy a small area in the vast landscape of possible

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Speaker 1: belief systems. And that's actually, I think a fascinating question, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: religious beliefs could in theory be anything. Anything could be

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Speaker 1: a religious belief. Example, my friend Julian believes that a

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Speaker 1: breakfast crunch Rap Supreme that he got from Taco bell

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Speaker 1: In is the creator of the universe and only by

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Speaker 1: its zesty salvation can he be saved from annihilation. Why

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Speaker 1: is it obvious this is a joke? Seriously, Like, how

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Speaker 1: come as soon as I said that, you knew that

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Speaker 1: I was kidding. You don't need to go like look

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Speaker 1: that up on Google and see if there really is

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Speaker 1: a sincere crunch Rap Supreme cult. You just immediately know

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Speaker 1: that people don't believe that sort of thing as a

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Speaker 1: sincere religion. And yet people believe in all kinds of

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Speaker 1: strange things, things that would of course seem strange to

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Speaker 1: those who don't share their religious beliefs. So why is

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Speaker 1: it that religious beliefs can and do involve all kinds

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Speaker 1: of strange things and narratives and propositions, and yet there's

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Speaker 1: actually a pretty constrained set of things even within that

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Speaker 1: fantastical landscape that would truly seem acceptable as a god

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Speaker 1: or a religious narrative, like for some reason thumbs up

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Speaker 1: to the immortal, all powerful person who reads your thoughts

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Speaker 1: as God, but thumbs down to the fast food item

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Speaker 1: as creator God. Right, So, like religious beliefs are are

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Speaker 1: not usually constrained by things like the normal functioning of

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Speaker 1: physics or biology, but they are clearly constrained by something.

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Speaker 1: If they weren't constrained by something, it wouldn't be obvious

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Speaker 1: that the crunch rap Supreme God was a joke. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it is. It is fascinating that, yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: world religion involves so many wonderful concepts and so many

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Speaker 1: things that when you first introduced to them, they seem

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Speaker 1: strange and new and and and and and you know,

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Speaker 1: perplexing at times, and and we celebrate that on on

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Speaker 1: this show. And yet at the same time you know

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Speaker 1: that there's not a tremendous amount of difference between you know,

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Speaker 1: the details of this religion and the next religion. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is this funny tension where in one sense there's

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Speaker 1: incredible diversity and difference, but on the other hand, that's

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Speaker 1: all constrained within some kind of lane that we sort

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Speaker 1: of have a sense for you. You might not be

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Speaker 1: able to define exactly what all the parameters are, though

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Speaker 1: Barrett's going to try to do that in a minute.

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Speaker 1: But you've got a sense that, like, for some reason,

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Speaker 1: the crunch rap doesn't work. That's just not a thing

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Speaker 1: people would believe in as God. You just know it automatically.

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Speaker 1: So what do people's actual beliefs in God's seem to

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Speaker 1: have in common? Barrett argues that the cognitive science of

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Speaker 1: religion has actually been pretty successful in identifying the most

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Speaker 1: common features of human religious beliefs, including what kinds of

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Speaker 1: concepts people most often find intuitive as God's uh, And

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll get into those in just a minute,

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Speaker 1: but first we should talk about some of his like

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Speaker 1: basic criteria for for what even constitutes the category. Right.

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Speaker 1: So the first one, and this is a big one,

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Speaker 1: is that multiple individuals must share a given idea for

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Speaker 1: it to be a genuine culture or religious concept. And

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Speaker 1: this is this is kind of a no brainer, but

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Speaker 1: it's important to note he gives it this example. If

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Speaker 1: one person believes their lamp can grant wishes and control

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Speaker 1: the weather, that's not a God. That's just one person

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Speaker 1: has a crazy idea about their lamp, but if a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people share this idea about a given lamp,

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Speaker 1: it might just be a God concept. Sure, uh, And

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Speaker 1: I agree that religion has a very strong and possibly

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Speaker 1: necessary social opponent. And yeah, I do think there are

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Speaker 1: some interesting counter examples that we might want to think about,

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Speaker 1: like hermetic mystics who live in isolation. They cut themselves

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Speaker 1: off from the world to develop private, personal, almost secretive

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Speaker 1: relationships with and understandings of God or of the gods.

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Speaker 1: And yet I think Barrett is still correct because we

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Speaker 1: don't usually grant these idiosyncratic, private mystical practices the status

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Speaker 1: of a religion unless they're supported by a wider structure

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Speaker 1: of belief shared by larger numbers of people. Like the

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Speaker 1: mystical traditions often tend to be a kind of monastic

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Speaker 1: offshoot or branch of larger religions with regular social adherents,

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Speaker 1: right right, like, So, Yes, while we may celebrate the

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Speaker 1: the ideas of say someone like a William Blake you

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Speaker 1: know who you know, certainly had his his own sort

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Speaker 1: of spin on what on what God was and what

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Speaker 1: the you know, the cosmology of of of the universe

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Speaker 1: happened to be, but we're are probably not going to

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Speaker 1: buy into every detail of it. We're willing to sort

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Speaker 1: of stand a foot back and say, like, Okay, he

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Speaker 1: has his own take on this, but I'm I'm still

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Speaker 1: keeping to the canon. You know, this is the extended

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Speaker 1: universe star Wars, and I'm more of a you know,

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Speaker 1: the Star Wars films. Right, And we accept Blake's idiosyncratic

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Speaker 1: ideas as religious because I think they grow out of

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Speaker 1: a larger existing religion. You know, they're they're like, they're

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Speaker 1: this kind of extended universe, the expanded universe of Christianity.

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Speaker 1: I guess one can also say that it helps in

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Speaker 1: these cases if other people do not start flocking to your,

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Speaker 1: your extended universe concept of religion, because then you stand

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Speaker 1: the risk of being a heresy and or creating a new,

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Speaker 1: different religion. Right. Yeah, And that's another thought entirely. It

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Speaker 1: seems to me also that only widely distributed beliefs are

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Speaker 1: likely to have stable contents, because one member of the

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Speaker 1: religion tends to mediate any potential like deviation from the

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Speaker 1: orthodoxy by another member of the religion. But private religious

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Speaker 1: beliefs they seem to be radically unstable. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: liable to change constantly. It's like asking how many editors

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Speaker 1: have access to a given UH wiki page, you know,

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Speaker 1: and if it's if it's a Wikipedia page and it's

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Speaker 1: one that is UH that gets a lot of traffic

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Speaker 1: and has a lot of eyes on it, you know,

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Speaker 1: by and large you can assume that the information there

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Speaker 1: is probably going to be on the level or if

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Speaker 1: it's or if anything crazy is at it, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be taken out pretty quickly. You know, the the

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Speaker 1: the inquisition is going to move in on those heretics. Now,

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Speaker 1: if it is an off brand wiki and it has

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Speaker 1: like two editors or one editor, uh, then it's up

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Speaker 1: for graps, right, right, Yeah, maybe one day somebody gets

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Speaker 1: a wild hair they're like, I'm gonna go in make

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Speaker 1: some major changes. Those changes they probably stick, right, nobody

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Speaker 1: comes in to change it back. I mean, there's there's

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Speaker 1: no controlling influence, right, and then if it does change,

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Speaker 1: you know, when it does change over time, I think

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Speaker 1: the idea of a you know again, a high profile wiki,

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia page or a a widely accepted god like, the

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Speaker 1: changes are gonna occur gradually and they're going to emerge

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Speaker 1: from the culture at large. Yes, yeah, having more adherents

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Speaker 1: makes an orthodoxy more generally stable, though of course they

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Speaker 1: do still change over time. It's just, uh, there's just

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Speaker 1: less potential for sudden radical change, I think, right, unless

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Speaker 1: certain individuals have a tremendous amount of power over it.

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Speaker 1: And then in that case, you know, you have like

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Speaker 1: the ancient adyption model where suddenly a ruler decides, actually

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Speaker 1: it's just the sun disc and that's what we're doing

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Speaker 1: now exactly. But that was one guy and it didn't stick, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think ultimately I agree with Barrett that

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Speaker 1: if we're going with normal usage what people usually mean

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Speaker 1: when they talk about a religious belief, it needs to

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Speaker 1: be a distributed belief. It's held by a decent number

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Speaker 1: of people. I'm not sure exactly what the number is,

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Speaker 1: but like private beliefs of a single person or a

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Speaker 1: handful of people, I probably don't count as religions yet.

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Speaker 1: All right. Number two, Religious concepts and God concepts can

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Speaker 1: spread due to quote features of human minds that transcend

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Speaker 1: cultural environmental variations unquote. And I'm assuming that's something like

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Speaker 1: the fear of death and the desire to avoid pain

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Speaker 1: might be such features. As an example, Yeah, you're you're

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Speaker 1: correct about that. I mean what he means is just

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Speaker 1: that it's obvious that influences on religion can be cultural

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Speaker 1: or social. Right, they can come from, you know, just

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Speaker 1: contingent facts about history and what else is going on

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Speaker 1: in the culture and politics and all that. But there

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Speaker 1: can be these What he's arguing is that there are

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Speaker 1: these internal factors as well. And this is what the

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Speaker 1: cognitive science of religion is about. It's about brains, right,

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Speaker 1: There are some religious beliefs that will be better adapted

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Speaker 1: to survive in the environment of the human primate brain

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Speaker 1: than other beliefs will be regardless of cultural factors. Like,

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Speaker 1: some beliefs just fit like a puzzle piece with our instincts,

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Speaker 1: emotional tendencies, cognitive capacities, and others don't fit quite so well.

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Speaker 1: I was trying to think of a few simple obvious examples.

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Speaker 1: Here's a clerkey in kind of one. You probably wouldn't

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Speaker 1: find a popular religious belief where you had to remember

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Speaker 1: a name for God that was eighteen million sillvers long, right,

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Speaker 1: because the cognitive constraints of memory put limits on what

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Speaker 1: types of God beliefs there are. You wouldn't expect a

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Speaker 1: concept of God to be successful if it just couldn't

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Speaker 1: be remembered. Here's another one. Due to UH natural features

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Speaker 1: of of emotion and motivation and human brains, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: expect to find beliefs in a God that you are

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Speaker 1: required to love and obey and who rewards you for

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Speaker 1: your love and obedience with eternal torture in the hell

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Speaker 1: of coconut crabs. You know that this just goes counter

430
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: natural instincts about motivation, your your brain doesn't work that way. Yeah,

431
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: it has to be offering you something that that that

432
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 1: fits the mold for your your your biological life in

433
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: the mind, that governs your behavior in that biological life.

434
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: Yeah so, yeah, so I think that that's a pretty

435
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: standard thing of cognitive science of religion. There of course

436
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: going to be extremely powerful cultural factors determining what kind

437
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: of religious beliefs proliferate, but there are also some probably

438
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: biological neuroscientific factors that contribute as well. And speaking of biology,

439
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: the third UH requirement that Barrett lays out is that

440
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: some features of the human mind are products of human

441
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: biology as it interacts with the natural world. Apart from

442
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: cultural environmental variations. So maybe the pain example from above

443
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: fits here, but there may be better examples. Oh sure, yeah,

444
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,239
Speaker 1: I think the pain thing works great. I mean, this

445
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: is just saying like our brains are shaped by our revolution.

446
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: Of course they are, uh, and they're filled with contents

447
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: from culture, but they still have some innate kind of

448
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: tendencies that are just like part of your body. That's

449
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: just how brains usually work. One of them is that

450
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: we're motivated to seek pleasure and avoid pain. You know.

451
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: It's like it's really hard to get around that standard

452
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: way that brains work. Alright. So a big concept in

453
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: God's of course, is that a god doesn't just need

454
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: to exist within a you know, within the minds of

455
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: a particular set of people. That God needs to be

456
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: able to travel and needs to be accepted by new people, uh,

457
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: you know, across space and time. Yeah, needs mimetic survival advantages.

458
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: It needs to be able to spread and take root

459
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: in new environments. So we're going to take a quick break,

460
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: but when we come back, we're going to get into

461
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: uh Barrett's ideas regarding the five features that a god

462
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: must have to successfully travel. And this, according to the

463
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: cognitive science of religion, and then we'll eventually get into

464
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: questions regarding Santa Claus himself than alright, we're back, alright,

465
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: we're discussing how this paper about whether or not Santa

466
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 1: Claus actually counts as a god as as usually defined

467
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: by the criteria of the cognitive science of religion. And

468
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: this psychologist, Justin Barretta has in this article he is

469
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: out five normal criteria that god's really have to have

470
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: to be successful and be thought of as God's. Alright,

471
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: this first one is gonna sound familiar, and that is

472
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: that god's must be counterintuitive, or more specifically, they have

473
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: to be minimally counterintuitive. And if this sounds familiar, it's

474
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: because we did a whole episode on it totally. It

475
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: originally aired in August. It was called The Gods Must

476
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: Be Counterintuitive and we talked about myths and folk tales,

477
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: including religious characters and narratives with an eye toward the

478
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: question of what makes one successful and another unsuccessful in

479
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: secular narratives like why does everybody know the story of

480
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: Cinderella but there is no Walt Disney's The Donkey Cabbage. Uh.

481
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: We talked about the Donkey cabbages in this episode, it's

482
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: a fairy tale that it just doesn't seem to work

483
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: as well as Cinderella because it's just crammed with counterintuitive stuff.

484
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: On the other hand, you could think of tons of mundane,

485
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: boring stories that don't proliferate as well as Cinderella. But

486
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: in a in a religious context, or especially in ancient

487
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: religious context, why does one religion spread far and wide

488
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: and another one just never take off? Again? We should

489
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: acknowledge there are going to be hugely important other you know,

490
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: non brain based factors influencing this, like political and social contingencies.

491
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: You know, the religion of a powerful, successful empire tends

492
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: to spread, right, So there's no sense ignoring those factors.

493
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: Those are obviously very important, But are their factors just

494
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: in the human animal in the brain as well. And

495
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: cognitive science of religion tends to think, yeah, there are

496
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: probably a few factors in our brains about our brains

497
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: that make some religions more successful than others. And in

498
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: this episode from we discussed a line of research positing

499
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: that a major factor in the success of a narrative

500
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: or a religion, at least in the pre modern context,

501
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: was mnemonic resilience. That means how easily a story is remembered,

502
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: how easily a story survives in the memory. Uh. Most religion,

503
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: for most of history, of course, has been spread not

504
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: by holy texts or anything, but by word of mouth. Right,

505
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: You've got to spread a religion by telling people about it,

506
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: because most people in history have been illiterate. And so

507
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: what kinds of things are easier to remember when when

508
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: you're trying to spread them around the world. Well, psychologists

509
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: had already found evidence that people remember lists of items

510
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: better when that list contains one or two strange items

511
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: that don't seem to fit with the other items on

512
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: the list. Isn't that interesting? Yeah? Yeah, Like, if you're

513
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: at a grocery store and you're you're spying on what

514
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: the person in front of you is buying, you're gonna

515
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: remember it if there's something that is completely out of

516
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: keeping with the rest out it that that doesn't assembol

517
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: in your head into a like a an easily define

518
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: herble meal. Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Like, it

519
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: would seem to suggest, by this principle that if you're

520
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: looking at what somebody has in their cart, you'd remember

521
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: every item they have in their cart better if it's

522
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: like mostly normal groceries with a couple of really weird

523
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: things in there. Like if someone were buying pie crust,

524
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: whip cream, frozen strawberries, you think, oh, they make a

525
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: strawberry pie, and then you'd forget about it. But if

526
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: they're buying whip cream, pie crust, um, and then something

527
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: else like whole fish, whole fish exactly, you would be like, oh,

528
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: my god, they're making a fish pie with whip cream

529
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: on top and a Graham cracker crust. That is crazy,

530
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: And then you would be telling everyone you knew about it. Yeah. So,

531
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: at least as far as lists go, lists of things,

532
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: it seems that it's easier to remember something that's like

533
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: mostly normal with a couple of weird elements than it

534
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: is to remember something that's totally bonkers or totally mundane um.

535
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: And so one of the papers we looked at in

536
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: this episode also applied this principle to the intuitive nous

537
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: of elements in a story like a like a folk

538
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: tale or a religious narrative. This was by norn Zion, Atran, Faulkner,

539
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: and Shaler in Cognitive science in two thousands six, called

540
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: memory and mystery the cultural selection of minimally counter intuitive narratives.

541
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: And so basically the short story is, this paper found

542
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: some evidence to support the hypothesis that the kinds of

543
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: stories people remember best are minimally counterintuitive narratives. Not stories

544
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: that are straightforward and mundane, not stories that are crammed

545
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: with weird, outlandish stuff, but stories in the middle, sort

546
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: of toward one end, like stories that are mostly straightforward

547
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: with a small number of strange or fantastical counterintuitive elements. So,

548
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: for instance, a humanoid elephant is a great concept, an

549
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: old man who lives in the sky is a great concept.

550
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: In these concepts travel reasonably well. Yes, uh. And just

551
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: as a tie into this older episode, I remember one

552
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: thing we talked about in there. We talked about a

553
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: number of papers that Justin Barrett was a co author of.

554
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: You know, he does a lot in the cognitive science

555
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: of religion, including one that I still remember. I thought

556
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: it was very interesting. It was about anthropomorphization in the

557
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: psychology of religion. And this paper was published in the

558
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: journal Cognitive Psychology in nine and essentially it was by

559
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: Barrett and Kyle, and it found that people quote spontaneously

560
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: anthropomorphize God in their reasoning, even if doing so contradicts

561
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: their stated theological beliefs. So like when they don't remember

562
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: to avoid doing so, if you're not, they're reminding them

563
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: what they're previously stated theological beliefs are. People tend to

564
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: start thinking of God as like a normal human agent

565
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: with just like big supernatural powers but basically with a

566
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: human brain. Yeah, Like, I can definitely relate to this

567
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: because I I tend to think when I when I,

568
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, think about concepts of of a monotheistic deity,

569
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: I think of, uh, you know, something more surreal or psychedelic.

570
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 1: I think of you know, like some sort of like

571
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: triangular nonphysical entity, or I think of you know, something

572
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: that is uh, you know, something where where the you know,

573
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: the God is singular, but also all these other gods.

574
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: You know, I throw a lot of steps at it,

575
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: but like like the ground of being, you know, that

576
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: kind of thing and stuff like that. But if I'm

577
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: not thinking too hard about it, if I'm saying just

578
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: like listening to somebody at church talk or I'm reflecting

579
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: on some you know, just on the nature of God,

580
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 1: I'll fall back into the sky Daddy, Um where it's

581
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: like an old bearded man in the sky reaching out

582
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: his finger to touch the living that sort of thing. Yeah,

583
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: and then I'll have to be like, well we no, no, no,

584
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: that's not what I've been filling my head with. It's

585
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: a you know, space trianglester. Yeah. And so Barrett and

586
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: Kyle find that this tendency is very common. They say,

587
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: you know, even if you think of God is like

588
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: the ground of being or the force or even you know,

589
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: to get into a specific religion, like in in specific monotheisms,

590
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: you might find people with very carefully calibrated theologians type

591
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: points of view, you know, where they they actually have

592
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: meticulously formed beliefs about like what God can and can't know,

593
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: and what how the mind of God works and all

594
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But like if you just kind

595
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: of get them thinking without reminding them that that what

596
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: their stated beliefs are, they just sort of start thinking

597
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: about God like a person with a human brain. Yeah,

598
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: and this can also be like super irritating if you're

599
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: you're trying to cultivate an idea of the Almighty as

600
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: being say gender neutral or even being feminine as opposed

601
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: to masculine. And then when you're not thinking about it,

602
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: you fall right back into to it being a you know,

603
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: traditional masculine, uh, you know, patriarchal being. Oh yeah, I mean,

604
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: I guess there's that tendency to probably pushing on like

605
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: specific personality attributes and stuff, and not just like the anthropomorphization,

606
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: though they do say the authors here say that constantly

607
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: reminding people about their own state of theological beliefs can

608
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: help attenuate the anthropomorphization impulse, right, you know, if you

609
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: you're like, hey, remember what you said, you said you

610
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: believe God was like this, Like that'll that'll obviously will

611
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: help some cut down on it. But they suggest here

612
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: that this may indicate a strong tendency to anthropomorphize all agents,

613
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: no matter what kind of being they are. Dogs become humans,

614
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: computers become humans, the world's spirit becomes a human. Everything

615
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: that appears to have any kind of independent action or

616
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: is believed to have any kind of independent action basically

617
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: just becomes a human. Well that's that's the theory of mind, right,

618
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: Like it's there so we can understand primarily what our

619
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: fellow humans are doing, but then it can act you,

620
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: and it can actually be very helpful and trying to

621
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: figure out what non human animals are are wanting to do.

622
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: I was reading a little bit about this in terms

623
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: of veterinary science, and you know, like there's the older

624
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: tradition of saying like, don't or those beyond veterinary science

625
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: and science in general, just the study of animals, and say, like,

626
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: there's the idea of like, you know, don't think of

627
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: it as as a person, don't have the anthropomorphize it

628
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: at all, don't you know, don't think about its feelings.

629
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 1: And then there's someone say, well, actually, you know, we should,

630
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: we should use theory of mind to do a s

631
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: a certain degree, to a safe degree, uh, to figure

632
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: out what is going on in the minds of of

633
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: of an animal. But then if you're anthropomorphizing everything, if

634
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: you are, in the words of creative writing a teacher

635
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: I once had, if you anthropomorphize like a mad god, uh,

636
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: that's where we get into problems or and also that's

637
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: where we end up creating some of the more uh,

638
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: you know, inspired concepts and human culture as well. Yeah, totally, uh,

639
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: I guess. So to bring it back, yes, as Barrett says,

640
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: according to the cognitive science of religion, it seems true

641
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: that God's must be in some way counterintuitive, ideally minimally counterintuitive,

642
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, having some unusual aspects, like maybe say, being

643
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: invisible and all powerful, but then oft to be all powerful.

644
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: There are also minor gods that still qualify as God's right,

645
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: but invisible and having some kind of non normal powers

646
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 1: or attributes. Right, I mean, basically I like to play

647
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: the game of like, just keep adding counterintuitive aspects to

648
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: a particular deity and decide at which point it's silly

649
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: and no longer intimidating, Like a like a a strange

650
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: tall man comes out of the shadows and gives me commandments. Okay,

651
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: that's great, All right, let's add that he has the

652
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: head of a dog. Okay, even better. Hybrids are a

653
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: huge part of religious concept. Now he's got crab clause

654
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: any has crab claws? Right? And then okay, it's one's

655
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: a crab claw and one is a hand puppet. Uh.

656
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: And so for like, every time you add something else

657
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: to it becomes a little bit more ridiculous and a

658
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: little harder to to to take um and that that

659
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: seems to be part of the whole minimally counterintuitive. Yes,

660
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: but they've got to at least be counterintuitive, because if

661
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: you say, like, this is my buddy Jeff, he's god.

662
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: He doesn't have anything unusual about him, like there are

663
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: no he doesn't have any powers. He's not invisible, he

664
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: can't fly, he's not omniscient, omnipotent, nothing like that. He's

665
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: just Jeff. That's not that. Nobody thinks that's a god. Now,

666
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: Jeff would probably at least pass the next one. This

667
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: is number two on Barrett's list. God's must be intentional agents.

668
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: Barrett uses the example of two minimally counterintuitive concepts, an

669
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: invisible potato versus a talking potato. Okay, both minimally counterintuitive,

670
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: but one works better as a god than another. Yeah,

671
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: only the latter is viable candidate for godhood because it

672
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: implies agency. A god must have agency and work as

673
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: an intentional agent. Now, this concept does make me think

674
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: about ideas of say, slumbering gods, dead gods, and mindless gods,

675
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: at least in fiction such as you know, Lovecrafts as

676
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: is off comes to mind. Oh you you got me

677
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: on as a is off recently, but I looked it up.

678
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: It's as a thought, as a thought. Sorry to correct

679
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: that that would make Yeah, it would have the Egyptian

680
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: thought aspect to it. Yeah. Yeah, well as as a

681
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: thought or as is off. He doesn't care because he

682
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: has mind he's mindless. He doesn't even know his own name.

683
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: He's just swirling chaos in the middle of the universe,

684
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: gnawing on himself while uh, you know, blind monsters play flutes.

685
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: But like this would be an example of First of all,

686
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: it's a god that nobody actually worships. It is a

687
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: fictional deity, but is at least it is at least

688
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: the concept of a deity that is mindless. Yes, now,

689
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: I think this is another reason that like the crunch

690
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 1: Rap Supreme could not be a viable god, right because

691
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: it's essentially as a thought of the mindless, of being

692
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: at the center of keV chaotic universe exactly. It's an

693
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: inanimate object that symbolizes primordial chaos, can't talk, has no

694
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: intentions at going to do much. All right, We're gonna

695
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: jump in here and take a quick break, but we'll

696
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 1: be right back and we're back, all right. So let's

697
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: move on to the third requirement. God's must possess strategic information. So,

698
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: in other words, the gods or god must have some ideas,

699
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: some advice, or some secret knowledge that can improve your

700
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: life here on earth. Perhaps it's a set of laws,

701
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: a revelation that there are no laws, or knowledge about

702
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: the coming end times. Or the god must have privilege

703
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: knowledge he knows what you've done, or the nature of

704
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: your inner thoughts, or what will happen to you in

705
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: the future. Yes, now, I think it's very important to

706
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: note that this does not mean the same thing as

707
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: like omniscience, which would be an omniscience all knowing. This

708
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: would be a form of strategic information, to be like

709
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: the ultimate form of strategic and information. But the omniscience

710
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: is a property only some gods possess. Right, The strategic

711
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: information idea here just requires that a god knows something

712
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 1: valuable or relevant. For example, the version of God depicted

713
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: in the Garden of Eden's story does not appear to

714
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: be all knowing. Like he walks in the garden, he

715
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: has limited perspective, it is possible to at least temporarily

716
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: hide from him, and yet he clearly has access to

717
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: important information that Adam and Eve do not have. Right though,

718
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: I also always wondered if he was just kind of

719
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: like a you know, sky daddy but playing dumb, but

720
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,479
Speaker 1: sort of trying to see what his creations are gonna say.

721
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: You know, like when you walk in, you're like, all right,

722
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: who smeared their food on this window? You know who

723
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: smeared the food on the window. But you're you're asking

724
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: the question because you want to have a civilized discussion

725
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: about it, and and and and and you know, and

726
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: in doing so, uh, you know, prevent more food smeared

727
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: from happening. Sure, well, I think that's a valid interpretation too.

728
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: I think the other one is more straightforward, but it

729
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: could be the one. Um. So, Barrett points out that

730
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: it's important that this information is relevant to humans in particular. Right, yeah, quote,

731
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: suppose a certain minimally counterintuitive agent only knows about Himalayan

732
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: micro invertebrates, such a being is unlikely to gain traction

733
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: as a noteworthy entity and rise to the status of god.

734
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: You know. And that's specifically because this entity does not

735
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: have any information that is useful in any way relevant

736
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: to humans like they and and they don't have to

737
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: be helpful. Right. Gods can be mean, Gods can be bad.

738
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: Beings with strategic information could be helpful allies or dangerous enemies,

739
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: as say, some of the Greek gods often are like Poseidon.

740
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: You know, he wants to wreck your ship and get

741
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: revenge on you. He's still God, all right. Next we

742
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: have number four. This is a big one. God's must

743
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 1: be able to act in the human world in detectable ways.

744
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: Barrett says, quote an all seeing, all knowing statue that

745
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: does nothing but season knows is not worth transmitting. Gods

746
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: have to do stuff and be known by that stuff,

747
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: or at least to have done something. Otherwise, it's just

748
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: not a concept that's going to travel sure or to

749
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: be likely to potentially do something in the future. Yeah.

750
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: A god that has no interaction whatsoever with the world

751
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: usually isn't going to form a religion. People aren't have

752
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: beliefs about that, correct, Like, for instance, think about UFO religions, right,

753
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 1: they tend to involve ideas of say, well, okay, the

754
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 1: the aliens came in an ancient time, or the Aliens

755
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: are speaking to us now, or the aliens will come

756
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 1: and save our our you know, dying culture. But if

757
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: your your UFO religion says the aliens are out there,

758
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: they've never come. Uh, they've never communicated with us and

759
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: they never will come, but we worship them as a god.

760
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense. Why am I? What am

761
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: I getting out of this relationship? Yeah? Now again, this

762
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: is one where I would say that none of these

763
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: rules are things where you can think of no possible exceptions, because,

764
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: like I can think about I guess, like in the

765
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: Gnostic religions, there are some types of God that are

766
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: like very very removed. You could still say that their

767
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: actions have some like downstream effects or like very important

768
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: downstream effects on the world. But there are like some

769
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: types of gods or godlike type concepts that are at

770
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: least a very distant remove from the goings on of

771
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: the world. But often in those cases they are like

772
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: sort of layers below them who do interact more directly. Right,

773
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: or in some cases they're more esoteric variations of a

774
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: God that is worshiped more popularly in a slightly different

775
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: form Alright, let's move on to five. Gods must be

776
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 1: capable of motivating behaviors that reinforce belief, yes, behaviors such

777
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: as ritual and prayer, and they need to be reinforcing behaviors.

778
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: For for instance, Bear. It makes the example that the

779
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: ritual can't promise to produce eight foot children because there

780
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: will be no eight foot children around them to reinforce

781
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: this um now rituals that this happiness, um contentment, even

782
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: financial gain. These at least you can make and argue that, look,

783
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: here's the proof of the ritual working, right, Yeah, I mean,

784
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be clear proof. I mean,

785
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: as long as there could be some kind of ambiguous

786
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: way of interpreting that the rituals are having an effect. Uh,

787
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: then I think that's still okay. But yeah, he's saying that,

788
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: like the ritual can't guarantee results that it won't actually deliver.

789
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: Right if you say, if you tie at to my

790
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: new religion, you will live forever, Like that's that's gonna

791
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: bite you in the butt eventually, and then your religion

792
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: is gonna fall apart. But it is funny how far

793
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: out on the limb you can kind of get with this,

794
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: Like as long as there's some kind of ambiguity where

795
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: you're not really sure, maybe you don't see it not

796
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: working for other people or something like there you know

797
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: they're the prosperity gospel is incredibly popular, But I think

798
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,959
Speaker 1: that there's enough ambiguity that you don't necessarily know what's

799
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: going on with everybody else who's trying it. There's enough

800
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: wiggle room to say, like, you're not quite doing it right. Right.

801
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: It inspires a certain level of dishonesty among the people

802
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: that are practicing it. And then at the center of it,

803
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: you generally have an individual that's perpetrating a con job

804
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 1: like it is about the appearance of wealth. And then

805
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: of course they're they're you know, in most of these cases,

806
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: they are, they're they're leaching money right there, they are

807
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: financially benefiting from the scenario. And then you it's not

808
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: like you have to carry this out forever. You know,

809
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: it's a con games have a beginning in an end

810
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: usually right, Yeah, But then of course there are again,

811
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: even if you're only understanding religion in a totally naturalistic way,

812
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: there are all kinds of benefits that religious rituals can deliver.

813
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: They can deliver like maybe you know, strong tightly bonded

814
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: communities with people who help each other. They can deliver

815
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: a sense of happiness and contentment. All all kinds of

816
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: like psychological and social benefits could be perfectly naturalistic outcomes

817
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: of religious beliefs and practices. Right, So even you know, say,

818
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: you know, Prosperity Gospel Church, uh, which is is you know,

819
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: vilified to a large extent and for in many cases

820
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 1: for a good reason, you could still have that kind

821
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: of a church community that would have a lot of

822
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: benefits to the members of that community. Likewise, you could have, uh,

823
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, something positive and beneficial sort of emerge out

824
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: of a more restrictive totalitarian belief system. Like maybe there's

825
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: some concept within that religion that resonates and works, and

826
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: then the the individuals practicing it run off and you know,

827
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: start something new with that that concept that actually works

828
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: for them. Arguably. An example of this i've I've heard is,

829
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, in Scientology there are members of Scientology or

830
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: former members of Scientology who have claimed that, you know,

831
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: they don't care for the organization or some of the

832
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: culture there perhaps, but they like the rituals, they like

833
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: some of the the technological um ideas, and some of

834
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: the practices that are utilized. They see value them and

835
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: an attempt to spend them off into something separate from them.

836
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: The central Church of Scientology. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean,

837
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: especially the lower levels of Scientology are are almost in

838
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: some ways indistinguishable from like a self help program that's

839
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: basically designed to like give you confidence and motivation to

840
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: take steps to achieve your goals and that kind of thing.

841
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: And you know, with stuff like that, you can certainly

842
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: see how just having a program that's supportive and telling

843
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: you to move confidently towards the things you want could

844
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: be perceived as very helpful, could actually be very helpful

845
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 1: in producing motivation for that kind of behavior, even if

846
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: it also implies things about you know, like bombs from

847
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: space and aliens and you and ghosts and all that

848
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, as long as all

849
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: that stuff minimally counterintuitive, I mean, because that's does seem

850
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: maximally counterintuitive. But I don't know, I don't know. I sometimes,

851
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: at least I I see people criticize. You see this

852
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: the thing with with any religion. Someone is liable in

853
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: one religion, they're liable to criticize the other by saying

854
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: that's crazy, that's wonky, How can you believe in that?

855
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: And uh without actually looking at the details of their

856
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: own belief system. And yeah, I mean that's just that's

857
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: just part of it. But yeah, that's what you've come

858
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: to accept as normal. And this is the thing actually

859
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: about that's come up in in the theory about being counterintuitive.

860
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 1: You know religions needing counterintuitive elements? Is that, Uh like,

861
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: as you get used to a religion, the elements that

862
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: used to be counterintuitive become less counter they become into

863
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: and then you need the next spin on it, right,

864
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: you need the mash up. Yeah, all right, everybody, we're

865
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: gonna have to go ahead and break right here. This

866
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: one went long. Yeah, this one went a bit a

867
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: little bit long. So we're gonna have to bust into

868
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: two episodes. Uh, certainly there's gonna be more Santa in

869
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: the second half than in the first half. In the meantime,

870
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff

871
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, go to stuff to Blow your

872
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. That'll send you where you need to go.

873
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: You can find us anywhere you get your podcasts and

874
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. Just make sure you rate, review,

875
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: and subscribe. That really helps us out huge thanks as

876
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

877
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

878
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other to suggest topic

879
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: for the future, just to say hi. You can email

880
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

881
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart

882
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my Heart

883
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

884
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Welcome to Stuff to

885
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, a production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

886
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is

887
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with

888
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: part two of our discussion of whether or not Santa

889
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: Claus is technically a god, at least according to the

890
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 1: most common criteria used by cognitive science of religion. Now,

891
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: we had to break this discussion in two because it

892
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: went so long, and now we're treating you to the

893
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: second half of our conversation about gods, our brains, and

894
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: Santa Claus. We hope you enjoy as we jump right

895
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 1: back in. Okay, so we've been talking about these criteria

896
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: that Justin Barrett raises that you will find common to

897
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: pretty much all beliefs in gods among you know, religions

898
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: you find in the world that gods tend to be

899
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: counterintuitive in some way, you often minimally counterintuitive, that they

900
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: tend to be intentional agents, that they have strategic information,

901
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: that they in some way act in the world, and

902
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 1: that they're capable of motivating behaviors that reinforce belief. Oh

903
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: and that's one other thing we should have emphasized. I

904
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: guess we did in this that the most important thing

905
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: about the behaviors that the god's motivate, the rituals or whatever,

906
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: is that the the motivated action most important to this

907
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 1: system is that it reinforces the original belief itself. Yeah,

908
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 1: because that's how it continues. It's it has to sustain

909
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 1: itself through that. Yes, So I was just thinking to myself, Okay,

910
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: these these five criteria, what happens if we apply them

911
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: to certain fictional entities that either claim to be God

912
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: or are believed to be a god of some sort

913
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: within the fiction. Take Goes or the Gazarian for instance,

914
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: one of the best. So it's it's a minimally counterintuitive concept.

915
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 1: You know, it has agency, Sure it does a lot

916
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: of stuff, but does it offer strategic information? I don't

917
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: know if it offers it. I think it probably has it. Yeah.

918
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: I also about the only good example I had this

919
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: is that, Okay. I mean, certainly it has strategic information

920
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: because it can see your thoughts and see what mental

921
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: pictures you are filling your brain with, so I think

922
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: that would count. It also has information that the world

923
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: will be destroyed by itself, so that's that's that's worth having.

924
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: I guess, like, is Godzilla a god? I mean, does

925
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: god Zilla possess strategic information or well, I don't know.

926
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: I think Godzilla is just a big monster, right, the

927
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:27,399
Speaker 1: goes or the Gozarian uh comes from another dimension. It's

928
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: like a god that makes Godzilla's makes marshmallow Godzilla exactly.

929
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: It takes the form of Godzilla, right, um, okay, the

930
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: big one with the Gozer, though, does it offer motivating

931
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 1: behaviors that reinforce belief? Maybe? I mean, it seems only

932
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: concerned with the opening of the doors that will allow

933
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: it to destroy the world as it destroyed other worlds.

934
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think the case is maybe a

935
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: little weak, but conceivable. I just realized I was calling

936
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: goes Er a Hey, I'm not sure Goesa as a heat.

937
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: Goes Or might be a she or or neither gender.

938
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,720
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Yeah, I think Goes are as gender

939
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: new Trull, even though it does take the form of

940
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: a feminine figure in the in the movie, and I

941
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 1: think but I think in the original script it was

942
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: going to be played by pee Wee Herman. Right. Oh wow,

943
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 1: I say goes Or transcends our puny concepts of gender. Right.

944
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: So we talked about as a thought, as a though,

945
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: as a thought, however you want to say it earlier.

946
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: I think this one fails because lax agency, and I'm

947
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: not sure it actually acts in the human world at all.

948
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: I think it's supposed to be just an entity out

949
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: there in the void, and it's just supposed to be

950
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: frightening and terrifying that it's out there at all. Um

951
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: Cutter Kane from John Carpenter's In the Mouth of Venice,

952
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: I think he checks off all the boxes. He's a

953
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: human that becomes a god. But then he's got I mean,

954
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: by the end of the film, there's no questioning it.

955
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 1: I gotta watch that again. It's it's it's pretty solid.

956
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: One of my favorites. Okay, here's one we have to discuss,

957
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: and this is when we talked about in greater detail

958
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,320
Speaker 1: on a past episode of Stuff to Blow your mind. Yeah,

959
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: the flying Spaghetti Monster. Okay, the past to Ferian concept,

960
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: which granted, is kind of a it is it is

961
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: a counter religious argument. It is an idea that it's

962
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 1: brought up. It's kind of a contrary uh concept. Right, Well,

963
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: it's another one of those that's obviously a joke at

964
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: the moment you hear it, right, you don't have to investigate,

965
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: like do people seriously believe? I mean, like you just

966
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 1: know instantly it's a joke. And again that's a clue

967
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: that there's like there are some kind of intuitive constraints

968
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: on what gods are supposed to be, like, right, I

969
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: mean his the fine Spaghetti Monster. I think the biggest

970
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: flaw might be that it is not minimally counterintuitive. It is,

971
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: it has two counter into two counterintuitive. It's like God

972
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: is a potato, right. But on the other hand, I

973
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,399
Speaker 1: do think it checks off a number of the boxes. Uh,

974
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: you know, his he has detectable actions, and they see

975
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: that they seem to be limited to the creation of

976
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 1: the world and also the changing of scientific measurements with

977
00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: his newly appendage changing radiocarbon dating. Uh, it's o for it. Well,

978
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess another thing is the question of,

979
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 1: like whether people sincerely believe the things you're talking about

980
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: to meet these criteria or just propose them Obviously ingest

981
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 1: because with all these fictional examples, I mean, you're thinking

982
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: of ideas of where you can create a something that

983
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: meets all the criteria, and yet obviously it still is

984
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: not a legit god found in the world because nobody

985
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: actually believes, right, nobody actually worships Goes or uh. I mean,

986
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: this flying spaghetti monster is is an interesting case though,

987
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: because I think it's probably safe to say that nobody

988
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: actually worships the flying spaghetti Monster. No one truly believes

989
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 1: in the flying spaghetti Monster. But at what point does

990
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: the current um concept of the flying spaghetti monster? At

991
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: what point does it at least partially transcended? Which which

992
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: point does it get one neodly appendage over the line

993
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: into godhood. Well, if you go on with a joke

994
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: long enough, you'll start to want to find meaning in it.

995
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 1: It always happens. Yeah, I mean, I mean, there's something

996
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 1: to be said in mean culture with on that account,

997
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: I believe, I think that's absolutely true. I think it's

998
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: also true. Watch any irreverent TV show long enough, eventually

999
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: it gets sentimental. It's true. I mean people want to

1000
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: start finding meaning in the chaos of humor and satire.

1001
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: That's a good point. All right, Well let's bring it

1002
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: back around to Santa Claus at this point. Um, First,

1003
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: I just want to recap a little bit about Santa

1004
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: But you know, I want to go and I don't

1005
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: want to go into a full history of Santa Claus.

1006
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: But it's it's interesting to just remind everyone where the

1007
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: concept came from. A few years ago, I chatted with

1008
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: Aida Adam c. English, chair of the Department of Christian

1009
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: Studies at Campbell University, about the evolution of Santa and

1010
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,919
Speaker 1: Santa Scholar. Yes, he is the author of the book

1011
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: The Saint Who Would Be Santa Claus? The True Life

1012
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: and Trials of Nicholas of Mira. Uh that in this

1013
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,280
Speaker 1: book he pointed out that the modern Santa Claus bears

1014
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 1: almost no resemblance to the historic origins of a fourth

1015
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: century Christian bishop. Um, and his continued evolution reveals a

1016
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: great deal about modern culture. Uh. This interview used to

1017
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: be hosted at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com,

1018
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: but now Stuff to blow your mind. Dot com is

1019
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: um exists only in a very stripped down form. But

1020
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just read a few uh quotes here from

1021
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: the author. Adam see English wrote to me and said,

1022
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: quote first and most obviously, Santa has been scrubbed of

1023
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 1: any and all religious identity. I think that is something

1024
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: people notice when they see the European Old World St. Nick's,

1025
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: who are addressed like bishops with a miter, stole, ecclesiastical vestiments,

1026
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: a Crozier staff, and many times wearing a crucifix or

1027
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: cross on the neck. In contrast, Santa has been domesticated, commercialized,

1028
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: and universalized or secularized, depending on your viewpoint. The miter

1029
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: has been softened into a floppy fur trimmed stocking cap,

1030
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: the vestiments have been turned into a red first suit

1031
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: with white trimming, the stole into the big black belt,

1032
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: and the Crozier staff into a large sack of toy.

1033
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 1: Even his name is under gone change. Santa Claus is

1034
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: an americanization of the Dutch center class, which is just St. Nicholas.

1035
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: His other name, Chris Kringle, is the americanization of the

1036
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: German Austrian UH Chris Kindle or Christ child. Oh Martin

1037
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: Luther attempted to replace Nicholas as the gift giver with

1038
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: the baby Jesus. The Christmas gifts come from the Christ child,

1039
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: well the Kris Kringle, the religious with Chris Kringle, the

1040
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: religious significance important to Luther has again been lost. He continues.

1041
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: Quote the first depiction of Nicholas in America by the

1042
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: New York Historical Society showed him as a stern bishop

1043
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: in the European fashion, but within fifty years he transformed

1044
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: into the magical elf who drives a sleigh pulled by

1045
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: reindeer and trops down chimneys. Um. And then also he

1046
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: drove home that there was never a once upon a

1047
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: time pure religious Santa Claus. Christmas has always been at

1048
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: blend of the sacred and the secular, popular in the

1049
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: solemn mercial and the familial um. Also, he points out

1050
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: that you know a lot of it also dates back

1051
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: to older beliefs. He said that in pre Christian times,

1052
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: the Greeks they celebrated Linnea, Romans had the Saturnalia in

1053
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: late December as well as the Bromalia. Germans hunted and

1054
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: feasted at Yule Tide. The Irish had Urnde. So I

1055
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: mean you have all these different midwinter festivals and they

1056
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: all involve a lot of you know, merriment, feasting, etcetera. Okay,

1057
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: well this introduces some difficulty because if we're talking about

1058
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: evaluating whether Santa Claus meets the cognitive science of religion

1059
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: criteria of a god, what Santa Claus do you go with?

1060
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: Do you go with like, you know, St. Nicholas, or

1061
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: do you go with like some kind of you know,

1062
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 1: as defined in some traditional work, or do you try

1063
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: to gather in the great you know, tapestry of different

1064
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: Santa Claus stuff out there today, and and and consider

1065
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: it all together and and put together I don't know,

1066
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: an amalgam. Yeah. And this is a problem that that

1067
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: Barrett gets into in the paper because because really, on

1068
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: one hand, you could you could really cherry pick from

1069
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: global and historical Santa Claus ideas and concepts and then

1070
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: choose the descriptions and attributes that best support your case.

1071
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: If you're saying God, are you saying not a God?

1072
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: You could point to evidence to support it. So but

1073
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: but but first of all, Barrett just says, Okay, at

1074
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: first glance, he thinks Santa meets all five criteria. First

1075
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: of all, Santa is minimally counterintuitive. He's a flying, jolly, old,

1076
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: kind hearted man. He's like he's grandfather Christmas. Also, Santa

1077
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: is an intentional agent. Santa. Santa has a mind. Santa

1078
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 1: wants to do things. He is not an unanimate carbon

1079
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: rod right. Also, he possesses strategic information. He knows if

1080
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: you've been bad or good. He acts in a detectable way.

1081
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: He leaves gifts or even a note in some cases. Uh.

1082
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: And he motivates reinforcing behaviors. Kids lee about milk and

1083
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: cookies for him. That is the sacred offering that is

1084
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 1: made to the Great Elf himself. Well, I mean, and

1085
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: I guess he would hope that his actions encourage children

1086
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: to be good around Christmas. I mean, that's what it's

1087
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: supposed to be. That's true, that's the whole other aspect

1088
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: of it as well. But ultimately, Barrett, he's not convinced,

1089
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: is he. No? He insisted, Santa ultimately fails at being

1090
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: a god. Okay, Now what is his case here? Okay,

1091
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: So on the counterintuitive point, he gets into this this

1092
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: whole like cherry picking thing that we discussed earlier. He

1093
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: counters that they were not unified enough in our vision

1094
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: of Santa. In some of some belief incarnations or in

1095
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: some media incarnations, we just see him as like a

1096
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: kind old man, while others show him as being this

1097
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: magical being that we've mostly been talking about, right, this

1098
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 1: idea that he lives forever at the North Pole and

1099
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: flies through the air and doesn't obey the laws of

1100
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: physics and time. Uh. And he says that some films

1101
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: portray him as as being a normal person who just

1102
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 1: has quote special friends, animals, and resources. Now, Barrett makes

1103
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 1: a distinction that I'm not sure I fully get. I

1104
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: wonder what you thought about this. Barrett makes a distinction

1105
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: between a counterintuitive being, like a counterintuitive man who has

1106
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: some special qualities, versus just like a regular being who

1107
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: uses magic powers. I'm not sure I really understood what

1108
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: the distinction is there, Like, if you can use magic powers,

1109
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: that seems counterintuitive to me. Yeah, I don't know. The

1110
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: way I was thinking about it when I read it

1111
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 1: was okay. He's saying that sometimes Santa Claus is Superman,

1112
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: sometimes Santa Claus is Batman. Superman has amazing powers that

1113
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: are other worldly. Batman is just a normal guy, but

1114
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: he has special gadgets and he has special friends. Okay,

1115
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: so like in the Santa Claus movie, the Mexican Christmas movie, Um,

1116
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: Santa Claus doesn't have the innate power to teleport. He

1117
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 1: has the flower to disappear, that's right, and if he

1118
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,200
Speaker 1: loses the flower to disappear, he can't teleport anymore. He's

1119
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: literally what he's treated by a dog, I think in that, yes,

1120
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, so, Yeah, that's a great exam That film

1121
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: is just a great film in general, and I believe

1122
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: played a key role in we're talking about the the

1123
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: idea that Santa Claus must travel as a concept like

1124
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: that film, if I remember correctly, played a very important

1125
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: role in introducing the concept of modern western Santa Claus

1126
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 1: to a Mexican audience. But yeah, in that, he seems

1127
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: like just a ridiculous old man. If he is if

1128
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: he loses any of his magical items, Okay, I can

1129
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: see this, and he depends on a lot of cooperation

1130
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 1: and support to really get the job done. Yes, he's

1131
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: got his friend Merlin, he's got all the children who

1132
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 1: help him, he's got the machine with the lips. Whatever

1133
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: he's going on there Yeah, he's more of a batman

1134
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: Santa Claus for sure, whereas in Santa Claus Versus the Martians, uh,

1135
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: the other MST three k Riff Santa Claus movie, in

1136
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: that he has powers, he can make toys do his bidding. Yeah,

1137
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: he's Hermes. I mean all right, well, let's move on

1138
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: to the strategic information front, okay, which, again, at the

1139
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 1: at the surface level, it seems like it's he's got it.

1140
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: He knows if you've been bad or good. Right, Yeah,

1141
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: But Barrett again argues that it comes down to consistency,

1142
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 1: and it's not consistent enough for Barrett, because does Santa

1143
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: truly know if someone has done or plans to do

1144
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: something morally objectionable? Yeah. Barrett says that knowing whether a

1145
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: person has been bad or good is not actually strategic information.

1146
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: It's the same kind of judgment another person could easily make. Uh.

1147
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: And what would constitute strategic information is, for example, knowing

1148
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: in advance whether somebody is going to be good or bad. Again,

1149
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I agree with Barrett here. I

1150
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: think that knowing whether somebody was bad or good, especially

1151
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: if you know what they did in private when nobody

1152
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 1: else was there to see them. That seems like strategic

1153
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: information to me. Like if you could watch what other

1154
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: people did in private without them knowing, would that not

1155
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: provide you with information that could give you a strategic advantage. Yeah,

1156
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's one of those areas of

1157
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: the Santa Claus concept where it does seem like a

1158
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: boiled down version of what you see in God right,

1159
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: a little more limited version. And I think part of

1160
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: this is kids are generally, children are not attributed with

1161
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 1: tremendous powers of hiding their wrongdoing. Like generally, whatever they're

1162
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 1: doing bad, it's super obvious because that's what we're getting

1163
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: onto them for. You know. Okay, the next one, does

1164
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 1: Santa act in the world in detectable ways? Well, Barrett

1165
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 1: says that Santa meets this one but weekly, since the

1166
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: gifts come once a year in a limited manner, so

1167
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 1: it's not you know, he's not bringing you gifts every

1168
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: week or every month even to to to really you know,

1169
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: make sure the detection is uh is is obvious, you know. Yeah,

1170
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:54,959
Speaker 1: And I would say the production of the gifts, as

1171
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: with many of the things that are prayed for petition

1172
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 1: for in religions, with things that are definitely recognized as God's.

1173
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: It's similarly ambiguous in terms of the mechanism. You know,

1174
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: you like go to sleep and then the presents are

1175
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 1: there in the morning. There's a lot of kind of

1176
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: wiggle room to think about what's going on there, right,

1177
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 1: and then sometimes Santa, I mean, as we've discussed previously

1178
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: on the show, Santa tends to come if he if

1179
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: it is, if he has if it has discussed the

1180
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 1: Santa might come, he tends to come. Generally, threats of

1181
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 1: Santa might not come this year because you've been bad.

1182
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 1: Generally those threats are not acted upon. But on the

1183
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: other hand, Santa doesn't always bring everything you wanted, and

1184
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: sometimes Santa doesn't bring those gifts that are ridiculous or dangerous. Right. So, yeah,

1185
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of room to I don't know where.

1186
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: It's up to the user kind of to infer the

1187
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: amount of detectable behavior that they wish, right, and then

1188
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: let's get around to motivating reinforcing behavior to Santa Claus

1189
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: do this well. We chatted about this a bit in

1190
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: our Carampus episode. Actually does Santa really work? Does the

1191
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: idea actually make kids behave? And Barrett contends that it

1192
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 1: does not. He says Santa is gonna come either way.

1193
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: And again it's also only going to impact Christmas. This

1194
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: is just what we were talking about. Like, does does

1195
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 1: the idea that Santa might not bring you any gifts

1196
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: at Christmas? Does that have any impact at all on

1197
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 1: a child's behavior in March? Yeah? I don't know, because

1198
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: because in March, when you're eight, like Christmas is a

1199
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: thousand years away. Yeah. And just think also about like

1200
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 1: how long a month is to a child compared to

1201
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: how long a month is to an adult. Yeah. I

1202
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: guess that's what you mean by a thousand years away.

1203
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 1: I mean every year to to a five year old

1204
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: feels like an eternity. Um. But yeah, there was another

1205
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: thing I was thinking about here, which is the most

1206
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: important behavior for a god, belief to reinforce in order

1207
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 1: to have me medic resilience, in order to survive and spread,

1208
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: it's got to be belief in the God itself. We

1209
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: mentioned this earlier. Does Santa's motivating power in turn motivate

1210
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 1: belief in Santa or even if it works, is it

1211
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 1: just to motivate like being well behaved? Yeah, that's a

1212
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 1: very good point. Does it actually motivate belief in Santa.

1213
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: Do kids. I mean you'll see I guess you see

1214
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,280
Speaker 1: a little of that, you know, uh, kind of like

1215
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: like in you know, an inquisition for a normal religion,

1216
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: but applied to the Santa world, like you've got to

1217
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: believe or you'll get in trouble. Well, I think the

1218
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 1: the area in the Santa concept as as I experienced

1219
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 1: it growing up, and in the current rights and rituals

1220
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: that we maintain that the real area of of like proof,

1221
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: right is the is the carrot that has been bitten

1222
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,440
Speaker 1: by the reindeer and the half consumed plate of cookies

1223
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: and milk like that that, more than the presence, is

1224
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 1: like the fingerprint of God. Explain that, Checkmate, atheists, checkmate

1225
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 1: Richard Dawkins. Anyway, Barrett also points out that a big

1226
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: problem facing Santa is to go back to some of

1227
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: the origins we've mentioned earlier, is that St. Nicholas is dead.

1228
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 1: No he's not. No. No. The connection to the long

1229
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 1: dead St is clear, and myths don't really explain it.

1230
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: He is not the resurrected St. Nicholas. We're never told

1231
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: that's the case. He's not the ghost of St. Nicholas.

1232
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: He's not Nicholas the White returned after fighting the ball Rock.

1233
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,599
Speaker 1: He's just he just also happens to be the mortal

1234
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: man who definitely died in the year three forty three CE.

1235
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: This is something I'm gonna come back to in just

1236
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 1: a minute. But yeah, there there are not very strong

1237
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: coherent Santa apologetics that are designed to work on adults. Right.

1238
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: There's there's no like if they explained, well, yes, Santa

1239
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: Claus was once St. Nicholas and after his death in

1240
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: three three CE, etcetera, etcetera. No, it's just like Barrett says,

1241
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: it's like you're into Santa and then you look him

1242
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,719
Speaker 1: up and you're like, oh, St. Nicholas, Oh, and he's dead.

1243
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: And he says that that takes the punch out of it.

1244
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna jump in here and take a

1245
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back, and we're back now.

1246
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 1: In discussing all of this, Barrett also provides a human

1247
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 1: risk chart that compiles his thoughts and his his interpretations

1248
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 1: of these five categories, not only on Santa as a

1249
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: possible god, but also Mickey Mouse, the Tooth Fairy, and

1250
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: George Bush. I think this would have been George W. Bush. Right, Yeah,

1251
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 1: I believe so. But for instance, we areya went through

1252
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: Santa Claus. But on Mickey Mouse he gave Mickey yes

1253
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 1: for counterintuitive, Yes, yes for intentional agent. Sure, but then

1254
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: a no on having strategic information and no on acting

1255
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 1: in the real world and a no unmotivating reinforcing behavior.

1256
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm with all that. On the tooth fairy.

1257
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 1: Tooth fairy gets yes. Is across the board except for

1258
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:45,720
Speaker 1: possessing strategic information, which, yeah, does the tooth fairy really

1259
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 1: know anything you don't? I mean, maybe knows a little

1260
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: bit more about your dental hygiene than other entities, doesn't

1261
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 1: really seem actionable. Yeah, And then finally, George Bush, George

1262
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 1: Bush gets yes, is across the board except for counterintuitive.

1263
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,599
Speaker 1: So he's an intentional agent. He at least at the time,

1264
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 1: possessed strategic information. He acted in the real world, and

1265
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: he motivated reinforcing behaviors, but he was not counterinto it. Hey,

1266
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 1: does he motivate reinforcing behaviors? I guess so, yeah, I

1267
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 1: got yeah, I think so. But you know, he it

1268
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 1: was just a human, right, I mean, yeah, it's true.

1269
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 1: Any actually existing human walking around on the earth motivates

1270
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: reinforcing behaviors, because if you act as if these people

1271
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 1: don't exist, it will cause problems for you. I should

1272
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 1: also point out that if you if you want to

1273
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 1: actually look up this paper and the full title, which

1274
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 1: we did not share earlier for reasons that we become obvious,

1275
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: is why Santa Claus is not a god again, Journal

1276
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 1: of Cognition and Culture two thousand and eight. If you

1277
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 1: look it up. He also has a wonderful Venn diagram

1278
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:48,120
Speaker 1: of how all five of these concepts interact, and the

1279
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 1: like the one save zone where you have candidates for

1280
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 1: successful gods according to these these ideas. Now, I would

1281
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,800
Speaker 1: say to be critical of these uh criteria I've been discussing.

1282
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: I think you could argue that Santa meets all five

1283
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: criteria at least in some cases of belief, and maybe

1284
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 1: not in other cases of belief. And yet still there

1285
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: is no active cult of Santa whatsoever among adults. And

1286
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 1: this suggests to me that while I think these five

1287
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: criteria are all very good starting places for evaluating god

1288
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 1: type agents in people's beliefs, there have got to be

1289
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: some other criteria here that are not really accounted for

1290
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 1: I think one major factor playing against belief in Santa

1291
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:34,639
Speaker 1: Claus as a god is that there is, first of all,

1292
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 1: a right of passage in which children become aware of

1293
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 1: the underlying Christmas gift mechanism. And there are not any

1294
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:46,200
Speaker 1: significant numbers of adults insisting to other adults that Santa

1295
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: Claus is real and is a god. Like you've got

1296
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 1: to have a foothold of people starting off insisting that

1297
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 1: it's real in all cases, and not just say, in

1298
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 1: the presence of children, but like to other adults, and

1299
01:11:57,840 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 1: they would have to be, you know, trying to make

1300
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,120
Speaker 1: a case, you know, and once you had that, actually

1301
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: I could see it being surprising how easy something like

1302
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,560
Speaker 1: god belief would pick up, because there's nothing as convincing

1303
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 1: as other people's confidence. It's like embarrassing how susceptible we

1304
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 1: are to just sensing confidence in other people and thinking, oh,

1305
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 1: maybe there's something to that. So do you think that

1306
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 1: there could come a day where we would say, oh, yeah,

1307
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: when we when we were kids and when we were

1308
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 1: you know, younger adults, uh, Santa was just an idea

1309
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:31,799
Speaker 1: that we we told kids about and only kids believed

1310
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 1: in it. But now we have all these adults all

1311
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,759
Speaker 1: over the news media, and they're just fiercely defending belief

1312
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: in Santa Claus. And I'm afraid to say anything. I

1313
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: don't think you would get that because I don't see

1314
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: that there's a major motivation to start a movement like that.

1315
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 1: And I think that the people who tried to start

1316
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 1: a movement like that, they would not have a major motivation,

1317
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: and they would look foolish at least initially until they,

1318
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: you know, got people believing them. So I just don't

1319
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 1: see that as likely to happen now. I think you

1320
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 1: could probably propose things that are equally ridiculous, but you

1321
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 1: can imagine more of a motivation for them to come

1322
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 1: about that. Maybe you could. I mean, they sound crazy

1323
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: to us now, but if enough people were confidently proclaiming them, Say,

1324
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 1: take a major political figure and start saying that they're

1325
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: a god. And that sounds ridiculous to us right now,

1326
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 1: but you just get a number of people loudly, proudly

1327
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 1: proclaiming that, I think you could get some buy in.

1328
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean you, if you listen to the

1329
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 1: right people, you you hear that about contemporary political figures.

1330
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 1: To a certain extent, I don't think I've heard anyone

1331
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: say that the individual in question is a deity. But

1332
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 1: I have heard people say, well, if you look at,

1333
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 1: you know, the way such and such as written in

1334
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 1: the Old Testament, then clearly that makes room for me to,

1335
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,520
Speaker 1: you know, to to look over this particular individual shortcomings, etcetera.

1336
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, I mean it's it's not too much

1337
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 1: of an extrapolation to get to the point where you

1338
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:59,040
Speaker 1: can imagine someone saying, no, this this politician is a god. Well,

1339
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: and the division between a figure of major religious significance

1340
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 1: and a god themselves is not always as clear as

1341
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 1: we might want it to be or think it is.

1342
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:09,960
Speaker 1: There's another thing that I think is getting in the

1343
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 1: way of Santa Claus becoming a legitimate god belief among adults.

1344
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: And this may be a weirdly specific nit to pick,

1345
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:19,560
Speaker 1: but I think it hurts to suggest that there is

1346
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 1: a physical location on Earth where he resides, and combining

1347
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 1: that with like modern geo imaging and maps like, it

1348
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,559
Speaker 1: would be really hard to contend that Santa Claus is

1349
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 1: a literal, physical being who lives in a toy workshop

1350
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: at the North Pole. Most god beliefs that have survived

1351
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 1: into the modern technological era have either always been or

1352
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:44,560
Speaker 1: have had to retreat into uh intangibility. For instance, it

1353
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: would it would be hard to insist today that there

1354
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 1: are Greek gods that literally inhabit a palace at the

1355
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: top of Mount Olympus, like you can see pictures of

1356
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:55,679
Speaker 1: what it looks like up there, um that they would

1357
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: have to become invisible or start to occupy some non

1358
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:02,719
Speaker 1: physical demand chin or something like that right now. As always,

1359
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 1: when you're talking about you know, real phenomenon culture, there

1360
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 1: are exceptions. An exception I can think of his Mount Kailash,

1361
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 1: for instance, in in Hinduism, some believe this to be

1362
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 1: the you know, it's a physical mountain, it's a real mountain.

1363
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 1: You go there, people make pilgrimages there and they walk

1364
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 1: around it. Some people believe it to be the home

1365
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 1: of Lord Shiva and the goddess Parvati. But you're not

1366
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:23,919
Speaker 1: allowed to climb up on the mountain to see for yourself.

1367
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 1: And I think this belief would probably also tolerate some

1368
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 1: non physical interpretations. And yet as I think you could

1369
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 1: potentially imagine imagine a world, if you will, in which St.

1370
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: Nicholas is never fully and divested from his religious origins,

1371
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:44,040
Speaker 1: and and and instead of it being, instead of Santa

1372
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 1: Claus being this thing that is sometimes brought up about

1373
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:49,639
Speaker 1: the secular war on Christmas, you know, and taking Christ

1374
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 1: out of Christmas. What if St. Nicholas on the whole

1375
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 1: across you know, Western civilization remains this um, this religious

1376
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: figure who also comes at Christmas and brings toys and

1377
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:05,000
Speaker 1: lives at the North Pole. And then you have all

1378
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 1: Santa believing nations agree to not explore the the Arctic

1379
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 1: because that is where Santa lives, and then forging treaties

1380
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 1: with non Santa believing nations that where they agree, yes,

1381
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 1: we won't explore the Arctic because we realize that's sacred

1382
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:23,400
Speaker 1: to you. Then perhaps you could keep you could keep

1383
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:27,679
Speaker 1: the the the residents of Santa an article of faith

1384
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: or not. It might not actually work, but it's possible.

1385
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: I think. I think you'd still have the major problem

1386
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 1: of like the the generational transfer of the knowledge of

1387
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:38,720
Speaker 1: the Christmas gift mechanism. Yeah, like the fact that at

1388
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 1: some point you meet the man behind the curtain and

1389
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:42,840
Speaker 1: its mom and dad. I think that has an incredibly

1390
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 1: powerful demotivating effect unbelief, Like you're really going for the

1391
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 1: throat with that one, Joe, I didn't I didn't go

1392
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 1: that far and talking about the magic of Santa. It's

1393
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:53,680
Speaker 1: weird though, because I feel I feel I'm sorry, did

1394
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 1: I do bad? Well, it's weird for me because I

1395
01:16:56,200 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 1: feel more I feel less pressure about disc saying uh

1396
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 1: like religious concepts uh. You know we've been saying that. Okay,

1397
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 1: you know we have this concept of God, but there's

1398
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:09,800
Speaker 1: no actual deity that resides in the heaven. Like, I

1399
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,680
Speaker 1: feel better about saying that than to come out and

1400
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:16,639
Speaker 1: say that Santa Claus is your parents. We already said, oh,

1401
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:18,679
Speaker 1: come on, I don't know. I'm not saying it makes sense.

1402
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,519
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, um, that's how it feels. I'm like, oh,

1403
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 1: that's that's a step too far to say, not only

1404
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 1: there is no Santa and he is me. That's that's

1405
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 1: exactly in fact that you're exactly making my point, because

1406
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 1: it's not just that at some point the other kids

1407
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: on the playground start saying, oh, you still will even

1408
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 1: Santa Santa isn't real. I mean, that would be one

1409
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:41,759
Speaker 1: thing if that was happening. You could still maintain belief

1410
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 1: even in a hostile atmosphere. People maintain religious beliefs in

1411
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:48,800
Speaker 1: a hostile atmosphere among nonbelievers who challenge their beliefs. But

1412
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 1: the fact that there the mechanism is revealed by the

1413
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 1: by the people pulling the levers, that the the it

1414
01:17:56,400 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 1: is me statement is the most powerful moment there where,

1415
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:04,560
Speaker 1: Like it can't really survive that moment. But sometimes you

1416
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 1: don't completely have that moment. I don't know, like some

1417
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 1: some parents, they don't have like a sit down and

1418
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:13,120
Speaker 1: say like, all right, here's the here's the truth. So um,

1419
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: I think another important Sorry I didn't mean to do

1420
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:17,360
Speaker 1: something now, No, no you didn't. I'm just saying that

1421
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:20,599
Speaker 1: that kind of I felt that it says more about

1422
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: me as a as a parent that's currently maintaining the

1423
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:26,679
Speaker 1: magic of Santa and trying to figure out like where

1424
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 1: it goes from here, you know. But I do want

1425
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: to come back to again to Santa and godhood. I

1426
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 1: think it's worth mentioning. First of all, the Santa has

1427
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:40,160
Speaker 1: encompassed aspects of old gods already. You have such characters

1428
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:44,960
Speaker 1: as the Germanic god Voting, the godlike entity of Russia's

1429
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 1: dead de Morez or old Man Frost. Of course, factors

1430
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:53,880
Speaker 1: into another MST three k Rift film, Jack Frost, Uh,

1431
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,240
Speaker 1: and I think he's more there's certainly a clear cut

1432
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:59,720
Speaker 1: case for Jack Frost being a deity, uh, since he

1433
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 1: is uh, you know, he's he's can Can, he's you know,

1434
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:05,280
Speaker 1: he's a he's a natural force, and that is personified.

1435
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:08,360
Speaker 1: But then also we have to get into discussing just

1436
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,160
Speaker 1: like how the how concepts of God and God's are

1437
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: going to vary from culture to culture, because a lot

1438
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:16,960
Speaker 1: of this has revolved around very I think Western concepts

1439
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 1: of an all powerful god, you know, or or even

1440
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 1: like ancient Greek concepts of like really highly powerful anthropomorphic entities. Right. Yeah, um,

1441
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:29,719
Speaker 1: I mean it's something that Barrett mentions in the paper

1442
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:32,479
Speaker 1: is that there these criteria are supposed to apply to

1443
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:34,840
Speaker 1: all kinds of gods. I mean, so they would apply

1444
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:37,519
Speaker 1: to you know, spirit gods that live in the trees

1445
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, or household gods, and like, they

1446
01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 1: should apply to all of these categories. But it's clear

1447
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 1: that at least I think you and I, by our

1448
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:49,360
Speaker 1: cultural context, are very conditioned when we talk about gods

1449
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:52,400
Speaker 1: to think about like the monotheistic religions. Right. But but

1450
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:55,360
Speaker 1: I do wonder if does despite what Barrett says, I

1451
01:19:55,400 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 1: wonder if some of the household god concepts do kind

1452
01:19:57,840 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 1: of fall through the cracks of this a little bit.

1453
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 1: I was thinking particularly about about about China here, because

1454
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: in China, uh Santa has really only gained traction there

1455
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:12,160
Speaker 1: during really gain traction there in the nineteen nineties. So

1456
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 1: you won't find Santa wearing Confucian robes or anything, but

1457
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:19,280
Speaker 1: apparently you will see him on doors in places often

1458
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 1: relegated for the gods. Chinese households with double doors sometimes

1459
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 1: boast twin images of Santa, a place also reserved for

1460
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 1: Chinese New Year posters, and the traditional uh minshin or

1461
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 1: door gods of of of Chinese tradition. And I think

1462
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:39,679
Speaker 1: this forces us to realize that there's you know, there's

1463
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:41,920
Speaker 1: again there's God in the monotheistic tradition, and then there

1464
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 1: are the gods of various non monotheistic religions, and and

1465
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 1: we hardly just mean the pantheons of Hinduism and ancient Greece.

1466
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 1: But again, these household deities, such as the Chinese domestic

1467
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 1: gods like the kitchen or stove god, and then you

1468
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 1: know their variations of this in Western traditions as well.

1469
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, though, it is sometimes held that the kitchen

1470
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:07,559
Speaker 1: God in Chinese custom returns to the celestial realm shortly

1471
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 1: before lunar New Year in order to report household activities

1472
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:16,040
Speaker 1: directly to the all powerful Jade Emperor, whoa so um

1473
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 1: some strategic information there. So you know, at first it

1474
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:21,719
Speaker 1: might seem like there's not anything strategic there, but clearly

1475
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:24,960
Speaker 1: the kitchen God has strategic information that then has an

1476
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:30,000
Speaker 1: important ramifications for the household effected. Well, one thing I

1477
01:21:30,040 --> 01:21:32,959
Speaker 1: was thinking to complicate this is I used the obvious

1478
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 1: example that seems laughable to us of the crunch rap

1479
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,879
Speaker 1: supreme God. But I think that they're, in fact are

1480
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 1: some types of household god type entities that are they

1481
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:45,680
Speaker 1: are intentional agents and that they can act and they

1482
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 1: have like thoughts and stuff like that. But they're also

1483
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 1: inanimate objects, right about that. So there are like household

1484
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:57,720
Speaker 1: appliances that are gods and like food items that are gods,

1485
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: but they're just imagined to be those inanimate objects with

1486
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,800
Speaker 1: intentional agency. All right, we're gonna jump in here and

1487
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:09,840
Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we'll be right back. And

1488
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:12,639
Speaker 1: we're back. So there's another way to think about Santa

1489
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:15,919
Speaker 1: in relationship to God's in religion, and that's by focusing

1490
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:18,639
Speaker 1: on the fact that if he is a god, he's

1491
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 1: a specific kind of God, right, which is a moralizing god,

1492
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 1: like he knows if you've been bad or good, so

1493
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 1: be good for goodness sake. And I think two people

1494
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:33,360
Speaker 1: who are primarily familiar with only the largest world religions today,

1495
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, you've got Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism,

1496
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:42,840
Speaker 1: all that. It probably just seems like moralizing is an

1497
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 1: inherent part of what a religion is, right, Yeah, I

1498
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:50,679
Speaker 1: would think so. I mean, especially with the major monotheistic religions.

1499
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:53,680
Speaker 1: I mean that is the model, right, the big the

1500
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,160
Speaker 1: big Sky Daddy that is going to be disappointed in

1501
01:22:56,200 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 1: you and punish you if you do not behave morally totally. Like,

1502
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:03,120
Speaker 1: all those religions have concepts or codes that in some

1503
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 1: way regulate moral conduct. They encourage one type of behavior

1504
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 1: over another. So you've got the you know, supernatural justice

1505
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 1: in heaven and hell, divine retribution or resolution in the

1506
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:18,200
Speaker 1: workings of karma, etcetera. But not all religions are especially

1507
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:23,160
Speaker 1: moralizing and not all gods are especially concerned with moral behavior.

1508
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 1: Like if you look at smaller religions practiced all around

1509
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 1: the world, and especially deeper into history, you start to

1510
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 1: get the picture that many gods and many religions are

1511
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:36,680
Speaker 1: basically a moral that that they involve myths and rituals,

1512
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,720
Speaker 1: and that the gods don't really care whether or not

1513
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 1: you are morally good or bad. They care whether you say,

1514
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: perform the rituals or not. And of course this isn't

1515
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 1: to say that the people practicing these religions are a

1516
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 1: moral They of course would have ideas about moral conduct,

1517
01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:56,320
Speaker 1: just like anybody else would. It's just that the you know,

1518
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 1: in these societies, the regulation of morality does not seem

1519
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:03,080
Speaker 1: to come from the gods or religion. It comes from

1520
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:05,960
Speaker 1: other sources in the same way that the amoral god

1521
01:24:06,040 --> 01:24:08,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't care if you've been bad or good. We

1522
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:11,719
Speaker 1: can easily imagine like the tyrannical king who doesn't care

1523
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 1: if you are a good person or not. But are

1524
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: you are you paying your tribute to him? Are you

1525
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 1: obeying the laws that he set out? Not because they're

1526
01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 1: more but because they reinforce his rule? Right, it's not

1527
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:26,599
Speaker 1: follow the golden rule or something. It's neil before's odd

1528
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:30,320
Speaker 1: right now. Now, we mentioned earlier how the Jade emperor

1529
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:35,800
Speaker 1: in Chinese traditions, in Chinese mythology does seem concerned with

1530
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:39,200
Speaker 1: what's been happening in your house via intel provided by

1531
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:42,680
Speaker 1: household god. But I think what's interesting concerning that, I

1532
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:44,920
Speaker 1: don't bring it up to trying, like, you know, cast

1533
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:46,960
Speaker 1: down this idea, but rather to like add maybe a

1534
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:49,320
Speaker 1: few wrinkles to it. I think what's interesting is that

1535
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 1: in Chinese customs put a huge emphasis on ancestors, and

1536
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:55,639
Speaker 1: I think you see this in other models as well

1537
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 1: from around the world that stress spirits of the dead

1538
01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 1: is entities that have not completely he faded away and

1539
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 1: maybe connected to the gods in some way. I guess

1540
01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 1: a true moralizing god in the form we're talking about

1541
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:09,559
Speaker 1: here is one that has no shall we say, blood

1542
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:13,000
Speaker 1: relation to the mortals in question. Zeus, for instance, always

1543
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:15,920
Speaker 1: seems more keen than Father, even in dealing with his

1544
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:19,360
Speaker 1: own demi god offspring. You know, he's certainly not a

1545
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:22,240
Speaker 1: moral entity himself. No, I mean, yeah, you look at

1546
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 1: the Greek gods. They don't seem at all concerned with

1547
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:26,800
Speaker 1: moral behavior. I mean, you might get little snippets of

1548
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 1: that here and there. It does not seem to be

1549
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: the main focus of the Greek religion, right, and then

1550
01:25:31,360 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 1: many of them too are of course more it's not

1551
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: even it's limiting to try and even think of them

1552
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:39,800
Speaker 1: as being a moral or a moral because they are

1553
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 1: more embodiments of drives and aspects of the human condition. Yeah, totally.

1554
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:48,920
Speaker 1: I mean, they serve they serve a narrative function, right,

1555
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 1: just the way that like the characters in your novel

1556
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 1: don't necessary They're not necessarily going to be good people

1557
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:56,599
Speaker 1: like they're they're doing things to serve a narrative function.

1558
01:25:56,640 --> 01:25:58,679
Speaker 1: I think a lot of gods in history are that way,

1559
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 1: except you did need to do rituals, right, like Bacchus

1560
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 1: for example. You know, like Bacchus, I guess you could

1561
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:07,000
Speaker 1: say Bacchus is a moral but but even that kind

1562
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 1: of puts a liminal what Bacchus is Like Bacchus is

1563
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 1: more the embodiment of like just sort of primal instinct

1564
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:17,719
Speaker 1: and primal drive and desire. Right now, of course, whenever

1565
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:21,679
Speaker 1: you're talking about like a big complex human phenomenon like religion,

1566
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 1: there's gonna be all kinds of variation. There's no you know,

1567
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,679
Speaker 1: it's hard to make generalized statements that are always true,

1568
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,799
Speaker 1: but historically it does appear to a lot of scholars

1569
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,200
Speaker 1: of religion that over time there was a pretty major

1570
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:38,520
Speaker 1: shift in the world from a moral religions to moralizing religions.

1571
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 1: And again that doesn't mean a moral people. It just

1572
01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 1: means like, you know, gods that aren't concerned with moral

1573
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 1: behavior only with rituals to gods that have moral codes

1574
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:50,719
Speaker 1: and stuff. And the era of moralizing god's also seems

1575
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:53,480
Speaker 1: to be linked with like other traits of the religions

1576
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:56,679
Speaker 1: that bear them. For example, the trend toward moralizing god

1577
01:26:56,760 --> 01:27:00,479
Speaker 1: seems to be paired with features like omniscition. Like in

1578
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 1: order for a god to be aware of your moral

1579
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 1: conduct at all times and punish you even for doing

1580
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:09,200
Speaker 1: wrong in private, the god needs to be all perceptive,

1581
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:11,559
Speaker 1: you know, he sees you when you're sleeping and so forth,

1582
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:15,640
Speaker 1: and so some scholars have actually proposed that the emergence

1583
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 1: of big moralizing gods and big moralizing religions could have

1584
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 1: had major effects on sort of society and ecology and

1585
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:27,400
Speaker 1: and the history of human civilization. Like one hypothesis that's

1586
01:27:27,439 --> 01:27:30,440
Speaker 1: been knocking around for years. I've mainly seen it associated

1587
01:27:30,479 --> 01:27:32,840
Speaker 1: with the book by the Canadian psychologist Dr Era nor

1588
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:39,000
Speaker 1: in Zion called Big Gods, How Religion Transformed Cooperation and Conflict. Uh.

1589
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:40,960
Speaker 1: I might not be fully doing it justice, but the

1590
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 1: basic idea here is that like big, powerful, moralizing gods,

1591
01:27:44,920 --> 01:27:49,080
Speaker 1: made civilization with large settlements and lots of trade and

1592
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 1: interaction between strangers possible. I think the basic reasoning is

1593
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:57,240
Speaker 1: that if people only live in small settlements, it's hard

1594
01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:00,960
Speaker 1: for individuals to get away with bad dison honest behavior,

1595
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:03,720
Speaker 1: because you quickly get a bad reputation if you know

1596
01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:07,240
Speaker 1: everybody around you knows you. There's only one person selling bread,

1597
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a small community. But so yeah,

1598
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 1: so they get punished in social ways, you know, by

1599
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:16,880
Speaker 1: other people. But in a world with big cities and

1600
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 1: lots of business and interactions between people who are probably

1601
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:22,360
Speaker 1: never even going to see each other again, it's a

1602
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 1: lot easier to be a cheat or a thief for

1603
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 1: whatever and just keep getting away with it. Thus, the

1604
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:30,960
Speaker 1: need for a belief in an all seeing judge who

1605
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:34,120
Speaker 1: holds you accountable, who won't just let you cheat and

1606
01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:37,320
Speaker 1: harm people and then escape into the anonymity made possible

1607
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:39,679
Speaker 1: by a big society with lots of trade and lots

1608
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:43,440
Speaker 1: of strangers. Um. Now, as always with this kind of hypothesis,

1609
01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:45,680
Speaker 1: it's important to remember the difference between like telling a

1610
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:49,760
Speaker 1: plausible story and proving an explanation is correct. I'm all

1611
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:53,559
Speaker 1: for informed speculation in areas where hard evidence is lacking.

1612
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 1: That's a lot of fun to do, and we like

1613
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 1: to we talk about that stuff all the time, but

1614
01:28:57,120 --> 01:29:00,120
Speaker 1: it's also important to remember the difference between that and proof.

1615
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:02,880
Speaker 1: So it is an interesting hypothesis. But like, is there

1616
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:04,680
Speaker 1: any way to test its predictions? And I think the

1617
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 1: answer is sort of. It's the kind of historical explanation

1618
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 1: that would be difficult to be sure about. But one

1619
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:13,120
Speaker 1: study I was looking at found an interesting way to

1620
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 1: test its consistency with the facts, and this was by

1621
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:20,880
Speaker 1: using a big historical database called sesshot to check to

1622
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 1: check the timelines basically on average, based on what we

1623
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: know about history, does evidence for big moralizing gods tend

1624
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:31,600
Speaker 1: to show up in a region of the world directly

1625
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:35,639
Speaker 1: before big increases in social complexity. Does it look like

1626
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: the emergence of these big moralizing gods is making like

1627
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:43,000
Speaker 1: big cities and complex trade possible. Uh So, there was

1628
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 1: a paper published in Nature in twenty nineteen by Harvey

1629
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:50,280
Speaker 1: white House at all Um and the results were interesting

1630
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 1: that they did not find in fact the big moralizing

1631
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:57,240
Speaker 1: god's created booms in social complexity in a region, but

1632
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:01,280
Speaker 1: they did find a historical association between the emergence or

1633
01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:04,599
Speaker 1: like our first evidence of big moralizing gods and booms

1634
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:07,760
Speaker 1: and social complexity in the timeline. It's just that the

1635
01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:12,240
Speaker 1: order was reversed. Quote. Our statistical analysis showed that beliefs

1636
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:16,320
Speaker 1: in supernatural punishment tend to appear only when societies make

1637
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:19,840
Speaker 1: the transition from simple to complex, around the time when

1638
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:23,960
Speaker 1: the overall population exceeded about a million individuals. So it

1639
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 1: looks like they found there is an association between you know,

1640
01:30:27,479 --> 01:30:30,800
Speaker 1: big booms and population and social complexity. But it looks

1641
01:30:30,840 --> 01:30:34,600
Speaker 1: like that the religious changes came about after the transformation

1642
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:37,720
Speaker 1: or you know, the formation of big complex societies. I

1643
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:40,360
Speaker 1: think that's interesting. Well, yeah, it reminds me of our

1644
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:44,479
Speaker 1: discussions on health the ologies in the past. Yeah. Uh,

1645
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 1: you know, particularly the ideas of as this this study

1646
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:53,479
Speaker 1: points out supernatural punishment, and uh I I have frequently uh,

1647
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 1: you know stated my displeasure with with any health theology model.

1648
01:30:57,479 --> 01:31:02,080
Speaker 1: I think that it is largely a supernatural revenge fantasy

1649
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:06,320
Speaker 1: and a barbaric one in which we we uh commit

1650
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:10,759
Speaker 1: individuals or groups of people to some sort of fiery

1651
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:14,679
Speaker 1: torture and rape in the in the afterlife for things

1652
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:17,400
Speaker 1: that we see them or we perceive them getting away

1653
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 1: with in this life. We're not being properly punished for

1654
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:22,160
Speaker 1: in this life. So I can see that very much

1655
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:24,120
Speaker 1: lining up with this. It's the idea of there are

1656
01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 1: people out there that are getting away with it. There

1657
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 1: has to be they cannot do that, They would not

1658
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:32,040
Speaker 1: be able to do that in the smaller realm, and

1659
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 1: here in the larger realm of the city, there still

1660
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,600
Speaker 1: must be some sort of of punishment, and therefore it

1661
01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:41,480
Speaker 1: becomes necessary to have this imagine punishment in the afterlife.

1662
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:45,400
Speaker 1: So the moralizing gods with divine retribution or perhaps not

1663
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:50,080
Speaker 1: something that makes big civilization possible, but something that happens

1664
01:31:50,360 --> 01:31:54,599
Speaker 1: because of the resentments generated in a big civilization. Yeah,

1665
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:57,639
Speaker 1: I wonder, I wonder. I think that's an interesting way

1666
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 1: of looking at Again, one is hesitant to to find

1667
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:05,160
Speaker 1: nice concise explanation for anything that emerges and all the

1668
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:08,320
Speaker 1: caveats we already stated, yeah, um, but yeah, I'm wondering,

1669
01:32:08,360 --> 01:32:11,320
Speaker 1: so if they're on the right track that this historically

1670
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:13,200
Speaker 1: was the trend, Like first you get a whole bunch

1671
01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:15,680
Speaker 1: of people together, all trading with strangers and stuff, and

1672
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:18,560
Speaker 1: then shortly after that you start to get the moralizing

1673
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:20,400
Speaker 1: gods who see you when you're sleeping and know when

1674
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:23,080
Speaker 1: you're awake. Does this have any relevance to Santa? Does

1675
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:25,840
Speaker 1: it tell us anything about the jelly old Elf? I

1676
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:30,240
Speaker 1: mean maybe in the sense that Santa is a concept

1677
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:35,280
Speaker 1: that is bestowed on young minds by adult minds, and

1678
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:39,080
Speaker 1: so therefore we could be taking the larger model, boiling

1679
01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:42,719
Speaker 1: it down into a simplified form, and giving it to them. So,

1680
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately, I don't know how much. I don't know.

1681
01:32:47,040 --> 01:32:48,960
Speaker 1: I don't know to what extent there's really a lot

1682
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:53,720
Speaker 1: of pleasure to be gaining for a child imagining the

1683
01:32:53,760 --> 01:32:56,559
Speaker 1: bad kids not getting anything for Christmas. I don't think.

1684
01:32:56,640 --> 01:32:59,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. Dwelling on that as a kid, maybe

1685
01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:01,559
Speaker 1: that's just you. Some kids do like the idea of

1686
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,240
Speaker 1: other kids getting punished, and you can see the delight

1687
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:08,160
Speaker 1: in their eyes. You never noticed this when like the

1688
01:33:08,160 --> 01:33:11,760
Speaker 1: bad kid gets there come up and well, I don't know,

1689
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 1: maybe it depends on the environment which the child is

1690
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:20,719
Speaker 1: brought up, because I feel like currently with my child,

1691
01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:24,280
Speaker 1: I don't I've never heard him bring up the idea

1692
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 1: of somebody getting away with bad behavior. You know, like

1693
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:32,040
Speaker 1: either bad behavior is dealt with by teachers or by

1694
01:33:32,120 --> 01:33:35,000
Speaker 1: another parent. That's there. Uh. You know, certainly we live

1695
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:37,599
Speaker 1: in the age of of you so called helicopter parents,

1696
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:40,000
Speaker 1: where there's generally there generally are a number of parents

1697
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:44,000
Speaker 1: hovering around the playground environment, etcetera. So maybe he just

1698
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:47,040
Speaker 1: hasn't gotten to the point where there's this realization that, yes,

1699
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:50,880
Speaker 1: sometimes when you are bad, you absolutely get away with it,

1700
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:54,240
Speaker 1: at least in this lifetime or at least until Christmas

1701
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:57,559
Speaker 1: rolls around. That's interesting, But it comes back to I mean,

1702
01:33:57,600 --> 01:34:00,160
Speaker 1: it's it's the flip side of the coin right of

1703
01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 1: the classic theological quandary, why do bad things happen to

1704
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:06,120
Speaker 1: good people? Why do good things happen to bad people?

1705
01:34:06,160 --> 01:34:08,840
Speaker 1: Why do bad people get away with being bad? Right? Well,

1706
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:11,880
Speaker 1: if you have the concept of an all powerful, moralizing God,

1707
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 1: it necessarily invites that question when you start to see

1708
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:17,320
Speaker 1: flaws in the system don't look like they're working. I

1709
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:18,880
Speaker 1: mean to come back to again to the idea that

1710
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 1: Santa does tend to come through even for the bad kids,

1711
01:34:22,400 --> 01:34:23,960
Speaker 1: Like there's gonna come a point where you realize, no,

1712
01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:29,439
Speaker 1: my classmate Um Damien was terrible this year, like he

1713
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:33,400
Speaker 1: is awful in Santa, gave in everything he desired and

1714
01:34:33,439 --> 01:34:36,559
Speaker 1: then some something is wrong with this system. It's all

1715
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:44,120
Speaker 1: for you exactly because I guess basically given a complex society,

1716
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:48,960
Speaker 1: that's going to happen inevitably even or perhaps especially with

1717
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:53,519
Speaker 1: environments where you have like really tyrannical rule in place.

1718
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:56,680
Speaker 1: Takes a like a North Korea situation, where you have

1719
01:34:56,840 --> 01:35:01,960
Speaker 1: like informers in UM, like in smaller groups that report

1720
01:35:02,040 --> 01:35:05,360
Speaker 1: back if anybody's speaking, you know, out of line about

1721
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:08,080
Speaker 1: the regime. Like even of course, within a regime like that,

1722
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:10,960
Speaker 1: you're going to have people that then abuse the already

1723
01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 1: abusive system and find ways to benefit from it. So

1724
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:16,559
Speaker 1: there's always going to be somebody in these systems getting

1725
01:35:16,600 --> 01:35:20,160
Speaker 1: away with it no matter what. Uh you know, cultural

1726
01:35:20,520 --> 01:35:24,400
Speaker 1: UM institutions and systems are put in place to prevent it. Yeah,

1727
01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:26,600
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point now, you know, on

1728
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:29,640
Speaker 1: the subject of of city gods and moral gods, I

1729
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: can't help but turn my mind back to the work

1730
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:35,760
Speaker 1: of Julian Jaynes, author of the Origin of Consciousness, in

1731
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 1: the Breakdown of the bi cameral Mind, which we we

1732
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:41,240
Speaker 1: discussed in a couple of older episodes of Stuff to

1733
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:43,839
Speaker 1: Blow your mind. I think we more or less recently

1734
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:49,040
Speaker 1: re ran those and occasionally it pops up. But he

1735
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:51,719
Speaker 1: spends a fair amount of time pointing to the structure

1736
01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 1: of ancient cities with their houses of the gods at

1737
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:59,000
Speaker 1: the center, what he refers to as bicameral architecture, each

1738
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:03,719
Speaker 1: city centering upon steeply rising pyramids topped with god houses,

1739
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:06,960
Speaker 1: where he says, quote, the king dead is a living god.

1740
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:10,280
Speaker 1: The king's tomb is the god's house, the beginning of

1741
01:36:10,320 --> 01:36:13,360
Speaker 1: the elaborate god house or temples. And you know that

1742
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:15,280
Speaker 1: this gets a little bit into the idea of that

1743
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:19,080
Speaker 1: the ancestors remaining alive, like the dead king, has not died.

1744
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:22,320
Speaker 1: The the idea of the dead king is the form

1745
01:36:22,360 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 1: through which one hemisphere of our brain speaks to the other. Right, Yeah,

1746
01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:28,160
Speaker 1: that was the basis of his all. He's trying to

1747
01:36:28,200 --> 01:36:31,679
Speaker 1: prove his case that like, there was this historical transition where,

1748
01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:34,519
Speaker 1: like you know, where the gods were literally talking to people.

1749
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:37,360
Speaker 1: But of course it wasn't supernatural entities. It was the

1750
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:41,719
Speaker 1: non dominant hemisphere of the brain. Right. But it's important

1751
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:45,280
Speaker 1: to note that like in the purely bicameral scenario here

1752
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:47,840
Speaker 1: that he was describing, like the God would not be

1753
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 1: reminding you what the rules are, that God would be

1754
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 1: telling you what to do. So he would point to

1755
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 1: the difference between moralizing and non moralizing gods as being

1756
01:36:57,560 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 1: key to the breakdown of the bicameral mind. For example,

1757
01:37:01,040 --> 01:37:03,880
Speaker 1: he points out that no one is moral among the

1758
01:37:03,920 --> 01:37:06,920
Speaker 1: god control puppets of the Iliad, good and evil do

1759
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:09,840
Speaker 1: not exist. But he points out in the Odyssey, the

1760
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:13,719
Speaker 1: character Clyde Mestra is able to resist a justice because

1761
01:37:14,040 --> 01:37:17,880
Speaker 1: her mind is like that of a god. So he writes, quote,

1762
01:37:17,880 --> 01:37:21,599
Speaker 1: consciousness and morality are a single development, for without God's

1763
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:25,519
Speaker 1: morality based on a consciousness of the consequences of action,

1764
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:29,240
Speaker 1: must tell men what to do. So I think the

1765
01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:31,160
Speaker 1: idea here is that there is no Santa Claus in

1766
01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:36,000
Speaker 1: the Iliad, and then he would not be necessary for

1767
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:38,640
Speaker 1: the children of the bly cameral mind. Certainly in the

1768
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:42,160
Speaker 1: James verse, Yes, that is the case. It is interesting,

1769
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 1: this is this is something that is perhaps a difference

1770
01:37:45,280 --> 01:37:49,600
Speaker 1: between uh Santa and various incarnations of the God. Is

1771
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:54,479
Speaker 1: that God in God's speak to humans in a way

1772
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:57,200
Speaker 1: that Santa doesn't really speak to us. I mean, I

1773
01:37:57,200 --> 01:37:59,400
Speaker 1: guess Santa does take the form of a like there's

1774
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 1: a Santa's helper at the mall and he directly speaks

1775
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:06,280
Speaker 1: to you, and then there is still the letter writing, etcetera.

1776
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:09,360
Speaker 1: But there's no voice of Santa that comes to your mind.

1777
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:12,320
Speaker 1: Do pretty much all kids are they told that when

1778
01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:14,360
Speaker 1: they sit on Santa's lap at the mall, this is

1779
01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:17,200
Speaker 1: not the real Santa. This guy works for Santa, I believe.

1780
01:38:17,280 --> 01:38:19,200
Speaker 1: So now now I don't know if that used to

1781
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 1: be the case. Certainly, if you had like a small

1782
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:25,000
Speaker 1: it's kind of like Crampus and Santa, right, Like, do

1783
01:38:25,040 --> 01:38:26,800
Speaker 1: you tell them it's really the Crampus is coming down

1784
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:30,240
Speaker 1: from the mountain and that's really saying nick uh, or

1785
01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:32,160
Speaker 1: or do you let them in on the fact that

1786
01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:35,880
Speaker 1: these are people pretending embodying these things. Well, I wonder

1787
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 1: if it's kind of like, you know, the priest of

1788
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 1: a religion, dressing up in garb that indicates the deity

1789
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 1: itself and being sort of your your intercessor, like the

1790
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:47,360
Speaker 1: person who intervenes on your behalf for the deity. I

1791
01:38:47,640 --> 01:38:52,160
Speaker 1: have to say, since we began recording the this this

1792
01:38:52,200 --> 01:38:55,639
Speaker 1: pair of episodes on Santa, I have introduced and sort

1793
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:59,160
Speaker 1: of reintroduced my son to both the Mexican Santa Claus

1794
01:38:59,200 --> 01:39:02,519
Speaker 1: film and Santa Cause versus the Martians. And that also

1795
01:39:02,600 --> 01:39:05,720
Speaker 1: like brought up the question of like, Okay, what is

1796
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:07,720
Speaker 1: this version of Santa I'm seeing here? This is not

1797
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:11,479
Speaker 1: the real Santa story because you know, this doesn't line

1798
01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:13,640
Speaker 1: up with what I've been told. This doesn't line up

1799
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:15,160
Speaker 1: with what I've been told, So already you're having to

1800
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:17,600
Speaker 1: here's another layer of having to say, well, this is

1801
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:21,240
Speaker 1: an interpretation of what Santa is and it it made

1802
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:22,960
Speaker 1: me think back to a film I don't know if

1803
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:25,400
Speaker 1: you've seen this, titled Santa Claus the I think with

1804
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:28,000
Speaker 1: Santa Claus the Motion Picture, I'm not sure. With John

1805
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,719
Speaker 1: Lithcwan it, no, I haven't seen it. I think Deadly

1806
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:33,320
Speaker 1: More may Or may not have played an elf. It's

1807
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:35,400
Speaker 1: been a long time, but it came out at just

1808
01:39:35,479 --> 01:39:39,080
Speaker 1: the right time in my childhood where I still largely

1809
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:41,280
Speaker 1: believed in Santa Claus, and here was a movie about

1810
01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:46,080
Speaker 1: Santa that, even at that point was ridiculous, and I wonder,

1811
01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 1: I remember wondering what the real Santa thought of this film,

1812
01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:53,640
Speaker 1: you know, like did he approve like this was blasphemous

1813
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:56,680
Speaker 1: in a sense? You know, because like I'm I'm thinking, well,

1814
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:59,599
Speaker 1: the reindeer don't fly because they eat a special candy

1815
01:40:00,160 --> 01:40:02,559
Speaker 1: and then humans John Lithcow wouldn't be able to fly

1816
01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:05,320
Speaker 1: because he ate a special candy cane. Yeah, how did

1817
01:40:05,400 --> 01:40:09,400
Speaker 1: Dr Lizardo become Santa Claus exactly? So I don't know,

1818
01:40:09,479 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 1: that doesn't really answer any questions. Is more questions about

1819
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:16,960
Speaker 1: in the hoops we make our our children jump through

1820
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:20,960
Speaker 1: when it comes to our our mythical god like beings. Alright,

1821
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:23,880
Speaker 1: So in the end, Barrett says, Santa Claus not a god?

1822
01:40:24,280 --> 01:40:26,680
Speaker 1: What are you saying, Joe H? Yeah, I think not

1823
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:29,920
Speaker 1: a god? Though I think it's not necessarily because I

1824
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:33,120
Speaker 1: uh come down the same side as him on all

1825
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:35,559
Speaker 1: of his main five criteria. I do think those criteria

1826
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:37,760
Speaker 1: are interesting and worth talking about. I'd say the main

1827
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:40,400
Speaker 1: things that make Santa Claus not a god, are like

1828
01:40:40,479 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 1: this other stuff we were talking about. For my money,

1829
01:40:43,439 --> 01:40:46,320
Speaker 1: I'd say, Okay, Santa is not a god, but he

1830
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:49,559
Speaker 1: contains pieces of a god, and I think you could

1831
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:52,360
Speaker 1: imagine a world in which he one day becomes a god. Sure.

1832
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:57,480
Speaker 1: I think what it would take was adults insisting continuously,

1833
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:01,800
Speaker 1: like a significant number of adults insisting it's true, right,

1834
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 1: and then the cultivation of a like the the editing

1835
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:08,280
Speaker 1: and the cultivation of a version of Santa clause that

1836
01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:11,400
Speaker 1: works for adults as well. Yeah, And I don't know

1837
01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:13,360
Speaker 1: what would ever cause that. I kind of doubt that

1838
01:41:13,360 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 1: would ever happen, But if it did, then I think

1839
01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 1: you I think you could be there. Yeah. All right.

1840
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:21,280
Speaker 1: So obviously we'd love to hear from everyone about this

1841
01:41:21,320 --> 01:41:24,160
Speaker 1: particular question, because a number of you out there have

1842
01:41:24,439 --> 01:41:27,599
Speaker 1: either you grew up with some sort of Santa concept

1843
01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:30,759
Speaker 1: in your household or and or you have a Constanta

1844
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:34,240
Speaker 1: concept in your current household, or you have in an

1845
01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:36,719
Speaker 1: outsider's view of all of this, which of course would

1846
01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: be very helpful. Even one thing I'm curious about, real quick,

1847
01:41:40,400 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 1: how does how when you're growing up, how did your

1848
01:41:43,479 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 1: Santa concept interact with your religious beliefs, right, yeah, like

1849
01:41:48,520 --> 01:41:51,080
Speaker 1: especially if maybe if you weren't a Christian but believed

1850
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:53,719
Speaker 1: in Santa, Like, how does that fit together? I think,

1851
01:41:54,040 --> 01:41:56,639
Speaker 1: you know, I have a feeling that sometimes Santa clause

1852
01:41:57,360 --> 01:41:59,960
Speaker 1: is in a way kind of like cruelly an intentional

1853
01:42:00,160 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 1: sacrificed in order to drive home the difference between a

1854
01:42:05,439 --> 01:42:08,640
Speaker 1: religious a concept like Santa and the religious concepts that

1855
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:11,559
Speaker 1: are upheld in the household. You know, not a war

1856
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:15,519
Speaker 1: on Christmas, but a war on Santa. Yeah, alright, so

1857
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:17,200
Speaker 1: let us know. We'd love to hear from everybody. In

1858
01:42:17,240 --> 01:42:19,519
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you want to find other episodes of

1859
01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:21,720
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind, uh, well, you can go

1860
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:23,719
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. It will redirect

1861
01:42:23,760 --> 01:42:26,800
Speaker 1: you to um a listing of episodes, and you can

1862
01:42:26,840 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 1: find a listing of episodes more or less just like

1863
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:32,160
Speaker 1: that anywhere you get podcasts. UM. I don't know, we

1864
01:42:32,160 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 1: can't keep up with all these websites, but they're out there.

1865
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:37,920
Speaker 1: You can go, you can subscribe, you can rate, you

1866
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:41,639
Speaker 1: can review. That will help out the show. Uh, let's

1867
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:44,920
Speaker 1: see what else? Um. Oh, and if you uh, if

1868
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 1: you want to, I guess you can follow us on

1869
01:42:46,439 --> 01:42:51,840
Speaker 1: social media. We're on various um civilization destroying platforms out there,

1870
01:42:52,479 --> 01:42:55,479
Speaker 1: but the only one we're really likely to interact with

1871
01:42:56,040 --> 01:42:58,760
Speaker 1: is the stuff to Blow Your Mind discussion module, which

1872
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:02,400
Speaker 1: we'll find on the of faces Huge Thanks, as always

1873
01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:05,960
Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you'd

1874
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

1875
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:10,679
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest topic for the future,

1876
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:12,920
Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at

1877
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:23,679
Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff

1878
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:25,639
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's

1879
01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:27,960
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1880
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:30,800
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1881
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:37,600
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.