WEBVTT - Wrestling with Kayfabe (with guest Colt Cabana) 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.720 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:13.880 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.800 My name is Robert Lamb and my name is Julie 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.280 Rowdy Roddy Douglas. Okay, yeah, that's your that's your gimmick 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.040 this week. That's my handle. Yeah, a little homage to 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:28.560 be famous Rowdy Roddy Piper the wrestler. Yeah, yeah, he was, 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.160 is was and is great. He was in of course 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.800 John Carpenters, they live and Hell comes to Frogtown and 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.760 other great Hollywood gyms. But of course, first and foremost 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.160 a pro wrestler. And uh and yeah, we're gonna chat 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.159 a little bit about pro wrestling in this podcast. But 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.559 do not let that scare you away, um, because I 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:50.880 know most of you, probably for most of you, wrestling 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:52.440 is not your thing. And if some of our listeners 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:57.080 are wrestling fans, a couple of our listeners are actually wrestlers, 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.920 if I remember correctly. But but but trust me, trust 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:02.320 me on this journey we're about to take you on. 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.520 That's right, because by the end of this podcast, you're 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:06.440 going to say it all makes sense. Now. I know 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.440 Robert and Julie wanted to talk about wrestling because I 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.160 now see how it has everything to do with my 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.000 life and my reality. Yeah, I mean, it's a big 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.160 ticket item to try to fill, but we're gonna try 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:22.600 to take you through that with wrestling and something called Kabees. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.040 So first of all, I mean, you mentioned Roddy Piper, 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:28.440 so your memory is of pro wrestling. You're not a 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.200 pro wrestling fan, but you have you you grew up 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.200 in the eighties like me, and you had a brother exactly, 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.760 which meant that I've spent a lot of television time 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.880 rooting for some of these characters in the eighties, most 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:46.640 notably Hulk Hogan for the Giant I mean soft spot there. Yeah, well, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.920 of course there was the Princess Bride tie and so yeah, 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.280 I mean, of course, and that that's where we got 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.160 to see his tender heart right there. Wendy Richter, okay, 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.800 she she was backed by Cindy Lauper. Lauer was in 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.600 in the WWF yes to try the rock and wrestling thing. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.360 Yeah yeah, So, I mean I was drenched in Whole Comania, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.239 which sounds kind of gross that I was. Well, um, 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.800 I was a little late for Whole Comania, not because 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.320 it wasn't on TV, but because I wasn't really allowed 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.600 to watch it like I was. I remember like it 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:22.040 would come wrestling would come on that like at odd times, 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.040 like suddenly it would be a Saturday night and they 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.520 would just be wrestling on it, and and I'd be like, Oh, 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.320 what's this. This looks kind of interesting and uh, and 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:30.640 then my parents would be like, Oh, you don't want 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.840 to watch that, don't don't worry about that. They put 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:34.760 pds on for you. Yeah. And of course when we 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.400 lived in Canada, we had no access to pro wrestling 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.200 that I remember. But but then eventually, like junior high years, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:41.959 I started, you know, I had a little more time 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:43.880 to an access to a t D on my own, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.720 and then I started really getting into it and exploring 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:48.679 it and uh. And to this day, I still I 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.160 don't follow it religiously. I mean I kind of followed religiously, 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:55.799 but I don't watch it religiously. I just I keep 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.320 an eye out, keep my ears peeled, and if I 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:00.480 hear about a match it's that's really good, then I'll 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.080 go and check it out. And it might be something 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.800 from the US, it might be something from Japan or 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:09.119 Mexico or what have you. Um, I'm even tempted. I've 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.680 even been out to a couple of wrestling shows here 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.800 in Atlanta. I'm really intrigued. There's one, uh that just 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.880 started up where their whole gimmick is, um that is, 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.160 the wrestlers are all monsters. So it's like Dracula versus 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.240 a wolfman. Oh. Nice. Nice. So that's kind of like 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.720 the Lucha libre concept just taken to another level. Yeah. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.840 So to just to give anyone who's not really familiar 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.440 with with what pro wrestling is on on a large, 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:38.960 larger national and international level, you have varying shades of it. 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:41.320 Like here in the US, you have the whole sort 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:46.080 of whole comania, larger than life characters that are to 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.720 the naive you or they're having a big fight, a 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.000 big crazy fight in a ring and then at the 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.920 end somebody wins and then uh. And then in Japan 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.400 they have it there. It's it's pretty big there as well. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:58.960 It's a little more steeped in honor in tradition, but 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.400 and and at times it's just utter wackiness. So it's 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.080 very Japanese and that that sense. Uh. And then it's 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.400 also huge in Mexico where we have, of course Lucha Libre, 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.560 which I think everyone has at least been introduced to 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:14.440 the the the visual flare of lucha libre by this point, um, 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.960 you know, crazy costumes, guys flying all over the place. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.040 But then at its at its roots, it all comes 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:25.520 back down to guys grappling with each other. Now, pro wrestling, 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.599 here's a big spoiler for everyone. Pro pro wrestling is 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.400 quote unquote fake. Now you get into trouble Yeah, I know, 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.440 I know, you get into trouble with with the with 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.240 the term fake because fake is such a big word 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.560 that it's it often takes on this negative connotation of 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.599 uh that that implies that what's going on does not 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.120 involve talent, does not involve um, you know, skill does 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:51.000 not involve physical wear and tear, uh and and pro 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.040 wrestling involves all of those things. It's it requires highly 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.280 skilled individuals to do it right. Uh. There's a lot 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.280 of thought that goes into it. It's it's ultimately storytelling 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.760 in the ring, like a physical storytelling, and it's very 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.640 well choreographed and it has to wait you choreographed and 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.039 or um improv because there are guys guys that have 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:12.920 worked with it with with each other enough. They go 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.800 out there and they don't necessarily know what all the 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.200 little moments are going to be, you know, the big 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.719 moments that are gonna happen. They know how it's gonna end, maybe, 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.600 But but there's a certain feeling each other out and 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.320 going with the flow of it that's really kind of 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.480 an improv kind of vibe um And I say choreographed 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:30.920 in this sense, because you and I were talking about 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.440 this yesterday that you have to have a feeling for 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.320 what's going to happen and how to execute certain moves 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.039 in order not to actually hurt the opponent or do 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:41.920 in a way that you don't hurt yourself. Yeah, it's 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:47.640 a cooperative battle, a cooperative fight, a cooperative wrestling battle 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.320 between two individuals or four individuals or what have you. 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:52.760 A referee thrown in there. It's also part of the act. 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:55.560 And but and then there's but again, it's a lot 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.960 of wear and tear involved, and individuals do become injured. 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.960 So you can read more about If you want to 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:03.880 know more about pro wrestling, go to how stuff works 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.680 dot com. We have an article called how pro Wrestling works. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.839 We have an article called how Lucha Libre works. They're 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.600 both find um fine articles that really give you a 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.360 little more in depth about what they are and how 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.720 they work. But we're not going to spend a lot 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.159 more time on that. Instead, let's also go back in time. 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.159 Let's go to a time before pro wrestling. Well, before 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.240 we go to our time for pro wrestling, can we 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.560 talk a little bit about the universality of it, Like 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:33.320 why wrestling, I mean, why did it, um take such 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.200 a hold of you as a youngster and as as 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.360 a man. Now, yeah, well pro okay, so pro wrestling? 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:44.440 What is it that captivates people? Um? I think, I 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.920 mean a lot of it does come down to conflict. Um. Like, 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.120 I'm I've never been one for like team sports. I'm 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.520 really not into sports. But if I watch a sport, 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.839 I'm more inclined to watch something that is more about 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.640 one person against another, like say singles, tennis or something. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.200 Um and and so pro wrestling you have you Generally, 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.200 it's to varying degrees, it's almost always a good guy 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.120 and a bad guy in the ring, locking up, engaging 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:14.000 in this pure physical battle, a test of strength and 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.760 a test of wills to see who is going to 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.720 be the victor, and uh, and then and then there's 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.120 a lot of and they're basically also using an unreal 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.160 form of martial arts, like it's the roots as will 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.320 discuss their in actual wrestling and actual um, you know, 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.360 physical grappling. But they are all these layers of fiction 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.120 that have built up over it, and so many of 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.160 the moves are are fantastic and just would would never 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.200 occur outside of a fictional environment, and that just adds 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.560 to the to the flare. That's what I like about 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.520 wrestling is because it does have that universality of struggle. Right, 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.760 everybody struggles, and it's highly symbolic because you don't actually 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.200 want to go mono mono with someone normally right, um, 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.680 it's slay him or her, but you may want to 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.760 release your aggression, right or your frustration. And that's what 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.520 I think is so um basic to wrestling is this, 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.000 as you say, this man against man, the struggle. And 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:08.760 I think, and this is kind of a joke, but 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.840 it's kind of not. Um. I think this is why 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:15.320 festivals took people's imaginations, at least here in the United States. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.840 I don't know if this is the Sinfeld thing. This 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:23.160 is a Sinfeld episode about wrestling, your father during the 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.360 holidays to air the grievances of the past year. And 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.480 I won't go into the long history of that, but 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.640 you know, once that aired on television, people began to 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.840 actually have festivals, celebrations, And I do think that, um, 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.520 it's struck a nerve there in and airing grievances and 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.679 again this highly symbolic act. Yeah, and it certainly when 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.439 you throw in the characters. I mean in pro wrestling, 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.600 you especially say in Mexico, where the masks are so rich, 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.480 and you'll have like one character and there's an even 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.840 bigger divide between good guys and bad guys. There's less 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.800 in between, there's less gray area. It's the the rudeo's 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.520 and the technicos. So on one hand you have, you know, 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.560 guys in like devil maths and skulls and snarley beast faces, 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.120 and then the other more you know serene and u 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.040 and positive images like guys with crosses on their face. 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.360 It's because you know, a heavy uh, you know, a 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.200 Catholic element down there. Um, you know, guys with would 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.000 say like a cat face, like like blue Panther comes 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.440 to mind as a mass that was in a week 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.440 like embodying like an animal spirit and something like positive 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.080 that you would you would strive for. And so these 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.440 these symbolic characters are are locking up in the ring 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.000 and it brings to mind um like non wrestling uh 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.760 passion plays, you know, where you'll have a certain members 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.640 of a village dress up as like an evil outside 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.320 force and then others um dress up as the victor 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.360 and and reenact myths of that that are vital to 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.240 a community or people, so that you have that basic 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.520 tripe that's so important to humans because versus evil, and 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.680 you have all this pageantry. And we're going to discuss 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.160 in a little bit why this pageantry matters, why it 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:08.720 matters to aspects of science or economics, um. But before 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.599 we do that, we need to unpack the sport a 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.760 little bit more and tell you about some of the 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:18.600 basics behind it. Yeah, because again, you watch pretty much 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:23.480 any pro wrestling product on TV now in any country, 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.439 and there's gonna be something that's that's unreal about it. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.320 And ultimately it is uh. It is to some degree 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.720 like choreograph or at least cooperative. It is a it 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.560 is a performance. So how did we get to the 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.640 point where we have this performance of this sport versus 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.400 its original roots, because you don't see this in every sport. 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.720 I mean, you can make a case for say Harlem Globetrotters, 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.880 isn't is an exposition a fake team having a fake 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.080 basketball game against another team. But you don't see that 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.280 in most sports. So so what is what is unique 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.720 about about pro wrestling? Okay, so you go go back 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.280 in time to like the earliest aspect of human culture, 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.839 and you have people law king up. You have people 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.160 wrestle like wrestling is is pretty much as old as 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:09.199 humans because at the very base you have conflict, be 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:14.320 steel conflict between people that involve clawing each other, dragging 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.760 each other to the ground, biting, jabbing, butt, punching the 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.079 whole nine yards but punching, but punching band in most 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.640 most most combat sports. So so so just imagine that 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:27.920 I want to just like cave me in tearing each 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:29.640 other up and rolling around the ground trying to kill 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.440 each other and strangle each other. Out of that, out 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.440 of the basic skills involved in that, you end up 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.440 developing a metaphor for that kind of combat. Because you 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.280 live in a society that needs cooperation, right, you can't 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.440 go around just brutally beating each other to death. Yeah, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.640 you need to, like you say, are your grievances and 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:49.840 open a way that doesn't end up with somebody dead. 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.640 You end up with this this kind of proxy battle 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.959 in the same way that sport itself is ultimately kind 0:11:55.960 --> 0:12:00.680 of a proxy war. Uh. Wrestling is like a proxy 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.480 tooth and nail battle to the death. It's a metaphor 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.800 for that. So everywhere around the world you have some 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.400 sort of tradition of wrestling. And and if you want 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.160 anyone who wants to learn more about the various types 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.480 of wrestling out there, I highly recommend you check out 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.600 the blog wrestling roots dot org. Uh. They go, they 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.720 go into just all these different they travel around, they 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.720 their photos, there's video, and they go into the different traditions, like, 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.480 for instance, there's traditional Turkish oil wrestling, which a number 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.959 of you're probably familiar with, but I was not aware of. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:35.040 I was it does it sounds like, you know, Turkish delight, um, 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.160 But I was not aware of just how much oil 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.120 is involved. Like it's not just like a little bit 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.959 like greased yourself up for the tanning bat or something, 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.600 but lots of olive oil like leaders of olive oil 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.200 poured over them and also down their leather shorts, just 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.400 you know, because it makes it harder for your opponent 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.040 to get a grip on you. I guess adds the 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:55.040 passion of it um. Then likewise, there's also India's uh 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.240 Kushti wrestling, which which is it is neat too because 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.480 there are no points in this. You can only win 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.240 by pinning, and you can also grab onto the shorts, 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.560 like some wrestling traditions are like don't grab onto the shorts, 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.360 and this tradition it's okay to use the shorts for leverage, 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.400 which I guess is like a sumo in that regard, 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.040 because I think in sumo wrestling, yeah you had to grab. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:16.559 You had to explain that to me because I kept 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.320 thinking that people were getting pants. Yeah, there's no pantsing 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.839 and custi. But Kusti is also interesting because they they 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.160 the wrestling takes place on softened earth where they've poured 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:30.280 out this ge mixture to the soil um, which which 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.800 is neat. You have this element of ritual to it 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.319 a well, and there's just any anywhere on Earth you 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:36.960 can go you can find some sort of culture of 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:42.080 wrestling but as far as the the transition from these 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.440 cultural folk wrestling traditions, uh, the transition from that into 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.560 professional wrestling, we end up looking at European models. They 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.720 are all these different European models of of of wrestling, 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.200 of folk wrestling that were popular and continue to be popular. 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:00.400 But but certainly back in the nineteenth century you had 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.000 a couple of things of note. You had you had 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.480 the the catches catch can style of wrestling, and you 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:12.679 had the Lancashire style, and they're closely related. They're closely related. 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.559 There's this guy named J. W. Chambers and he was 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:17.640 kind of a minor celebrity and he editor, he was 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.520 the editor of Land and Water, and he started promoting 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:25.880 a new grappling system UM that he called catches catchcan style, 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.440 first down to lose and uh. And this was this 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.920 was a folk wrestling tradition that also wasn't completely groundbreaking 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.440 because it was based on earlier models, but it involved 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.600 guys locking up UM and you could pretty much apply 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:44.920 any type of hold above um above the waist and 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:46.960 and first down to lose is a big part of 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.600 this too, because this actually changed the sport quite a bit, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.320 because otherwise if you're looking at past traditions. You could 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.080 have wrestling matches going on for days, meaning you know, 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.320 the person hadn't submitted yet said hey, I give up, 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.000 and so they would break for the day and resume 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.160 the next day. Well, the Lancashire style, Yeah, I was 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.280 was like that. I was reading this book Wrestling by 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.360 Walter Arms Armstrong, which is an eight nine book where 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.720 he's just so it's this is a pre pro wrestling 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.320 book talking about these different folk traditions and he has 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.720 some a couple of bits I want to read from 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:27.720 that about the Lancashire style. Um quote. Sometimes a wrestler 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.520 will apparently make an unsuccessful attempt to wrench off the 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.360 other's head, twist his arms from the sockets, or break 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.480 his fingers, finally rolling him bodily over, all of which 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.120 are eluded in a simply marvelous manner. Their elasticity of 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.360 their movements is at times something remarkable, as they struggle, ride, 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:47.160 and twist four hours together before obtaining a fall. Uh, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.240 it would go on. Not only would have gone for hours, 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.840 but here here's another quote from the book. When a 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.840 match is not concluded on the day appointed, the referee 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.920 orders the competents to meet again and commenced wrestling after 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.240 being waited at the same time in place every day 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.920 except Sunday until the decision has arrived at So you 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.600 would have this this match that would go on for dates. 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:10.600 Uh you know, and they were like, you know, their 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.240 their minor breakes as wells't it just constant action? But 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.080 still it's just goes on for days and then and 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.600 then there's the brutality of weary. I read the part 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.520 we're talking about people's heads being twisted. Um, but this 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:25.280 is a quote from a book called Fencing that had 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.680 a number of authors, but Walter Armstrong also contributed to this, 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.600 and the quote goes with regard to Lancashire wrestling, there 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.080 can be no question that it is the most barbarous 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.360 of the English systems, and it more nearly approaches the 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.640 French dog fighting and tumbling than any other. A fair 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.360 stand up fight with the naked fists is the merest 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:50.720 skim milk, in fact, a perfect drawing room entertainment in comparison. So, yeah, 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.480 the the rules of it were pretty laxed. Yeah, it's 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.880 basically like tried, don't crush your opponent's fingers, right, like 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.600 this was sort of it would happen, It would happen. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.040 They would tend to say, please, don't break each other's bones. 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:06.440 And the reason why the especially the fingers that are 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.359 the hands that they frowned upon that is because a 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.280 lot of the people who were doing this, we're working 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:14.120 class in parts like Shire, England, they're working in coal mines. 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.680 So obviously if you crush your opponent's fingers then you're 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.920 putting that person out work for a while. So there's 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.760 a cultural contract here. It's like this is wrestling is fun, 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:24.320 but we all have other jobs we need to do. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:31.359 That being said, the Lancashire style involved struggling on the ground, 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.840 catching legs, which the catch system that is described in 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:41.680 this book does not, catching legs, twisting limbs, bending fingers, um. 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.320 And so it was so you had two things going 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.800 on here, three things. Actually. First of all, there's something 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.760 about it. It's really entertaining. People really getting into this. 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.000 They enjoyed doing it, they enjoyed watching it, but it's 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:59.439 super long. They commitment commitment to to to act in 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.399 and commit it to watch. And then it's really violent, 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.480 and you would have situations where you know, individuals would 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:11.119 become really badly injured in this sport. So how do 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.200 you make money off of something like that? Right? You're 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.280 trying to your promoter. You want to carry this around 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.320 from town to town and and have these matches and 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.359 people pay to watch them and and all of this. 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:23.600 You don't want it to be that long. You want 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.240 it to You want of a product that you can 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.320 market a little better. Um. You know, it's like how 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.080 many people really have it in them to go see 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.040 Wagner as the ring cycle where you have to go 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.640 like multiple days to see the whole opera. You want 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.800 to you know, condense version. You want something smaller most 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.280 people do, you know. So so let's find a version 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.760 of this that fits into a smaller package. And let's 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.760 find a version that doesn't injure the participants as easily, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.160 because these are ultimately the people that you're you're making 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.080 your money off off. You know. It's like we were 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.040 podcasters and uh and writers and editors here at how 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.480 stuff worth and general only the risk of injury on 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.520 the job is low. It's more like you know, carpal 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.879 tunnel syndrome and strained eyes, paper cuts. Well, there you go. 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.639 What if we were using a type of paper that 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.000 was like just cutting fingers off left and right. You't 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.639 want to eliminate that paper because you need these people 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.040 to run the business, to keep the business running. And 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:18.919 likewise with the wrestling, you need to make it a 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.560 little less brutal. But you but the thing is when 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:23.119 you take the if you take too much of the 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.680 brutality out of it, if you say, all right, well, 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.480 don't touch the fingers at all because we don't don't 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.000 want to risk that, or alright, no grabbing the legs anymore, 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.880 then you end up taking away from what is attracting 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.040 people to it. So what do you do? You start 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.840 tweaking it a little bit with you start layering just 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:41.640 a little bit of fiction on it. Right, and this 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.960 is where you start to see some of the manipulation, uh, 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.920 coming into the sport and just sort of mounting and 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.520 mounting as it progresses through history. Um yeah, like maybe 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.080 it starts with all right, guys, when you go out 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.879 there tonight, Um, just go like one hour instead of six, 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:00.800 just one hour and also just kind of work together 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.520 a little bit so that you don't, you know, injure 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.359 one another in a really horrible way. Right, It becomes 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.560 so much more about showmanship. But what I wanted to 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.120 point out is that this is something that became very 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.880 popular all over the world. Um, as you already noted, 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.199 in various forms, but this sort of catches catch can wrestling, 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.800 and this Lancashire was actually exported when immigrants went to 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.440 different countries like in the United States. Became very popular 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.199 and it even hit the big time at the Olympics 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.200 at one point in nineteen o eight, it showed up there. 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:35.840 And I wanted to point this out because this is 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:42.000 just seems so fictional, but it's not. Abraham Lincoln actually 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:47.159 was uh one of the stars of catch wrestling in 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.199 the United States. Yeah, I mean, he apparently was a 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.800 big dog in the sport. In fact, this is from 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:56.080 a Sports Illustrated article The Civil Warrior Lincoln with this 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.680 was described as an onlooker as quote the big buck 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:05.440