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Speaker 1: Perry. Have you ever been pregnant?

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Speaker 2: No, not to my knowledge, but my wife has been

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Speaker 2: pregnant several times.

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Speaker 3: Did you know that when you are pregnant, fetal cells

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Speaker 3: get into your bloodstream and they live there forever, So

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Speaker 3: your children's cells are still circulating around your wife's brain

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Speaker 3: as we speak.

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Speaker 2: That is crazy. I mean I believe it pregnancy as

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Speaker 2: I went back to my med school notes for this

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Speaker 2: episode to like remind myself about how incredibly bonkers the

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Speaker 2: physiology is in pregnancy. I mean it is literally like

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Speaker 2: if I didn't know that it served some evolutionary purpose,

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Speaker 2: I would be like, well, this is clearly a terminal disease,

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Speaker 2: like no one can survive this.

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Speaker 1: I totally agree.

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Speaker 3: And that is in fact, how it feels some of

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Speaker 3: the time while you are pregnant, I will tell you.

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Speaker 3: And today we're to talk about pregnancy brain and the

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Speaker 3: ways that pregnancy makes your brain worse or maybe better,

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Speaker 3: or maybe different and both.

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Speaker 1: And we've brought in a special guest, special scientist.

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Speaker 3: We've run a special neuroscientist adjacent guest. Now, Allison would

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Speaker 3: like to introduce yourself and tell us why you're here.

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Speaker 4: I am here by force, I like basically commissioned this

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Speaker 4: episode and forced my way onto the podcast, which I'm

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Speaker 4: an obsessive fan of. I want to thank you for

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Speaker 4: your work. You've accompanied me through many a It's been

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Speaker 4: the equivalent of a panic Google, but much more informed

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Speaker 4: and much better. So thank you for saving me from

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Speaker 4: panic Googling. Although I guess now we panic Claude I

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Speaker 4: ghost mode, panic claud now at dark mode totally anyway, Hi,

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Speaker 4: I'm Allison. I am an actress. I'm also a podcaster.

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Speaker 4: I basically have been wondering for years now whether my

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Speaker 4: brain actually physically changed in a permanent way such that

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Speaker 4: I now have a different amount of or new presentation

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Speaker 4: of ADHD in adulthood, or if I always had it

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Speaker 4: but my ability to mask it was so good that

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Speaker 4: I didn't know, and then once I had a kid

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Speaker 4: there's just so much going on that all those coping

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Speaker 4: mechanisms no longer worked, Or if I don't have it

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Speaker 4: at all, and I just now I am a mom

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Speaker 4: and that means that my whole life feels like an

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Speaker 4: ADHD diagnosis and looks like one, and thus can be

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Speaker 4: treated like one, but isn't actually one. That's kind of

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Speaker 4: where this is coming from. And there was a study

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Speaker 4: which I'm sure you'll talk about with more. I don't

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Speaker 4: know authority and data, but there was a study showing

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Speaker 4: that women's brains changed physically during pregnancy and it was

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Speaker 4: correlated with postpartum depression. And that fascinated me because I

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Speaker 4: also had postpartum depression. And I was like, my brain

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Speaker 4: feels super different, but also my life is unrecognizable. And

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Speaker 4: so it's one of those what is the causation versus

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Speaker 4: correlation questions that I have been asking myself. And then

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Speaker 4: I was like, why am I asking myself this? That's useless.

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Speaker 4: I know what I know, I think, therefore I am therefore,

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Speaker 4: I know nothing extra about this topic, and I need

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Speaker 4: to turn to people who actually will And so I

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Speaker 4: turned to the best people because I weaponized my status,

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Speaker 4: and here I am.

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Speaker 1: We are so pleased that you did well.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. Now I know there's little bits of my son.

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Speaker 4: I can't wait to tell it. He's going to be

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Speaker 4: so proud. He's going to be so excited and proud.

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Speaker 3: I'm Emily ast I'm an economist and a data expert.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Harry Wilson.

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Speaker 4: I'm a medical doctor and I'm Alison Williams, actor and

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Speaker 4: podcaster and a fan of this very podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's Thursday, July sixteenth, twenty twenty six. And this is wellness.

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Speaker 2: Actually, because you're getting a staggering amount of health and

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Speaker 2: wellness information nowadays from every source imaginable, and some of

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Speaker 2: it is awesome and some.

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Speaker 1: Of it is well actually both.

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Speaker 3: Fortunately, we're both people who know how to read studies,

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Speaker 3: how to parse the data, and can tell you what's

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Speaker 3: worth thinking about and what you can safely ignore.

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Speaker 2: But before we dig in, a note that this podcast

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Speaker 2: is for educational purposes and should not be construed as

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Speaker 2: medical advice. We don't know your unique situation, so talk

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Speaker 2: to your doctor for personal health decisions.

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Speaker 3: This week we're asking what's the deal with pregnancy brain?

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Speaker 3: Alison Perry and I will give the official smasher pass,

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Speaker 3: and then we'll get to your question of the week.

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Speaker 1: But first let's do the health news roundup.

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Speaker 5: After the break, we're back.

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Speaker 3: We've set Alison off to go get her coffee so

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Speaker 3: we can cover the health news of the week.

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Speaker 1: Harry.

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Speaker 3: First up, the last American polio survivor in an iron

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Speaker 3: lung dies. I know you know a lot about this,

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Speaker 3: I know it has a personal connection. Tell me more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, some listeners and certainly many of my friends

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Speaker 2: will know that my mom was a polio sufferer. She

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Speaker 2: was in an iron lung when she was a little kid.

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Speaker 2: She ended up only having paralysis of one lower leg,

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Speaker 2: but obviously not everyone was so lucky. Martha and Lillard

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Speaker 2: is the last American polio survivor dependent on an iron lung.

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Speaker 2: She died at the age of seventy eight on the

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Speaker 2: last Friday in June of twenty twenty six. She contracted

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Speaker 2: polio a pretty similar year to my mom, nineteen fifty three.

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Speaker 2: That was her fifth birthday. That was two years before

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Speaker 2: the vaccine became widely available in the US. People don't

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Speaker 2: realize this now, obviously, but that was the reality in

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Speaker 2: the pre vaccine era, is that kids could get and

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Speaker 2: not all of them, but a fraction of them would

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Speaker 2: develop this this paralysis syndrome, which was sometime lifelong. Martha

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Speaker 2: Ann was from Shawnee, Oklahoma. She rescued animals, created art

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Speaker 2: and poetry, and had recently married her second husband in

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Speaker 2: February of twenty twenty six. It's wonderful that she was

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Speaker 2: able to lead such a full life. Not all kids

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Speaker 2: with polio had that opportunity, and I feel like I

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Speaker 2: just need to say that polio only exists in humans.

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Speaker 2: It is therefore a candidate for eradication from the earth

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Speaker 2: like we did with smallpox. It is on the list,

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Speaker 2: but unfortunately, due to recent trends in sort of the

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Speaker 2: anti vaccine movement, the eradication program has had some significant

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Speaker 2: setbacks and there is polio spreading out there, although not

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Speaker 2: in the United States currently.

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Speaker 1: Perry did this woman live her whole life in the

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Speaker 1: iron lung?

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Speaker 2: Is that she apparently for much of her life only

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Speaker 2: had to spend the night times in the iron lung,

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Speaker 2: so she would sleep there. Although I, as far as

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Speaker 2: I understand, she had a couple of bouts of COVID

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Speaker 2: and after that point was more or less confined to

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Speaker 2: the iron lung. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Amazing, and also, as you say, a reminder that vaccines

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Speaker 3: are really, really life saving and important.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Emily. I was fascinated to see an article that

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Speaker 2: writers into Tour de France are using lactate gels. What

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Speaker 2: is up with lactate gel?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so first of all, I want you guys to

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Speaker 3: understand that you're very lucky that I showed up for

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Speaker 3: today's recording because we are in the middle of Tour

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Speaker 3: de France Stage ten.

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Speaker 1: It's an important tour. I could be watching it.

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Speaker 3: Live on peacock right now and I'm instead I'm here

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Speaker 3: at work. Then I have to watch it later. So

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Speaker 3: you're welcome.

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Speaker 2: You're the real hero.

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Speaker 1: Emily totally okay.

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Speaker 3: So there's always every year there's some weird like endurance

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Speaker 3: sports science that comes out in the Tour de France,

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Speaker 3: because these are like the world's most elite athletes, supported

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Speaker 3: by the most amount of money. So like the United

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Speaker 3: Arab Emirates is putting just millions and millions of dollars.

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Speaker 1: Into getting Tadday Pagatcha to like go a little bit

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Speaker 1: faster on his bicycle.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Their latest thing is.

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Speaker 3: With their gels, which are generally just fructose some combination

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Speaker 3: of glucose and fructose which you eat, you know, while

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Speaker 3: you are biking very very fast.

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Speaker 1: They've added lactate to the gels.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 3: The idea is that I think twofold one is you

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Speaker 3: can use lactate as a fuel source, and so this

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Speaker 3: gives you yet another fuel source to fuel your cycling.

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Speaker 3: I think there's also an idea that the lactate can

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Speaker 3: make you less tired by eating up the hydrogen ions

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Speaker 3: that are produced with lactic acid, So maybe that works.

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Speaker 2: I mean, so a little nephrology here. The lactate that's

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Speaker 2: going to be in these gels, just a little nephrology

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Speaker 2: is almost certainly not lactic acid. It's probably sodium lactate.

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Speaker 2: So the conjuget base and lactate, as you say, can

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Speaker 2: be used as fuel. That's anaerobic respiration does use lactate,

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Speaker 2: and so maybe that's part of it. The other thing

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Speaker 2: is that your liver metabolizes lactate into bicarbonate. And I

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Speaker 2: know Emily that you're familiar with bicarbonate supplementation during a

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Speaker 2: lot of these endurance sports. So I wonder if a

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Speaker 2: little bit of this is just like bicarbonate with extra steps.

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Speaker 2: But either way, bicarbonate is a good acid scavenger, you know.

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Speaker 2: I teach the medical students this like acidosis, Like being

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Speaker 2: acidemic sounds so bad, But that being said, one of

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Speaker 2: the things that happens when you're acidemic is that hemoglobin

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Speaker 2: and you evolve this way, hemoglobin holds onto oxygen less tightly.

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Speaker 2: In acidic environments because as you might expect, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: there's it's getting acidic in here, there's not enough aerobic respiration,

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Speaker 2: like have some more oxygen. And so I always worry

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Speaker 2: even in the hospital about correcting acidosis too aggressively because

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Speaker 2: maybe we don't deliver oxygen as well. So, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know, people study it.

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Speaker 3: Then what I will say about this is it's probably

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Speaker 3: not for you, listener, for two reasons. One, there's actually

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Speaker 3: no evidence that this works. I mean, there's only that

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Speaker 3: they're using. The only evidence is like from the market.

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Speaker 3: You know that the teams are trying to buy all

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Speaker 3: these lack day jails. And also they gels cost nine

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Speaker 3: dollars each, which is a lot since these guys are

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Speaker 3: having like three every hour and that, and there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of people on the team, so they're just really

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Speaker 3: they're wasting they're spending a lot of money on lack

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Speaker 3: day jaels. But it's safer than last year's innovation, which

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Speaker 3: was carbon monoxide rebreathing, where you inhaled carbon monoxide to

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Speaker 3: raise your which is not that sounds like you don't

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Speaker 3: a terrible idea. Don't do that either, Okay, speaking of

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Speaker 3: things that are about optimizing. Brian Johnson fame for his

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Speaker 3: desire to not die, something we all share, but maybe

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Speaker 3: not in the same with the same approach, with the

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Speaker 3: same zeal. He has announced that he has been diagnosed

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Speaker 3: with something called autoimmune guestritis. He described it as my

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Speaker 3: stomach is eating itself. Is that a clinical description, Perry.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's not bad. It's not bad, okay, but

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Speaker 2: it's not accurate either. It's evocative though. Automun gustritis is

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Speaker 2: as it sounds like an automune condition where your immune system,

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Speaker 2: not your own stomach, attacks the acid producing cells in

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Speaker 2: your stomach and that has the sort of downstream effect

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Speaker 2: of inhibiting iron absorption, and so people can become iron deficient.

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Speaker 2: I think that's how they actually picked this up in

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Speaker 2: Brian Johnson. For those of you who don't know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of people know. But Brian

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Speaker 2: Johnson is the millionaire guy who like does literally everything

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Speaker 2: like he's an end of one experiment on every health

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Speaker 2: and wellness thing. From getting his like teenage uns blood transfusions,

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Speaker 2: taking methylene blue and wrap a micin and like a

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Speaker 2: million other things and then gets a zillion lab tests

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Speaker 2: and tries to draw conclusions, which is actually really hard

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Speaker 2: because he's doing one hundred and fifty things at once

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Speaker 2: to optimize.

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Speaker 3: Monitors his erections every night. That's he like has a

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Speaker 3: system to see how good his erections are every night?

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Speaker 2: Does everyone doesn't do that? That's that's uncommon. That's fine,

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Speaker 2: that's fine. So yeah, he's really into the data. And

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Speaker 2: and when you know he came out with this automne gastritis,

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Speaker 2: it's also a little bit like I should say this,

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Speaker 2: this condition can just pop up. Like any autommune condition,

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Speaker 2: you don't always know what the precipitate is. But in

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Speaker 2: someone who's taking you know, a million different supplements and

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Speaker 2: probiotics and methylene blue and rap amcin and all these things,

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Speaker 2: it's like, do you think maybe any of these things

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Speaker 2: could have had this particular adverse effect? And we'll never

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Speaker 2: know because he's doing one hundred and fifty things at once.

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Speaker 3: I will tell you the thing about this story I

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Speaker 3: found most interesting and would love to understand better, which

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Speaker 3: is I think part of how he found this was

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Speaker 3: related to his decision to have a colonoscopy. He's actually

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Speaker 3: forty eight and this was his first colonoscopy. So this

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Speaker 3: is a person who's doing literally everything, it's taking every

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Speaker 3: random supplement, but he actually was three years late on

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Speaker 3: one of the very basic things that we recommend people

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Speaker 3: do to prevent cancer, which is a colonoscopy.

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Speaker 1: So there's something so odd in my head about that.

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Speaker 3: Like, in the order of things I would say health wise,

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Speaker 3: I would put colonoscoby so far above methylene blue, Like

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Speaker 3: you couldn't even see methylene blue from the colonoscopy in

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Speaker 3: my list, Yeah, do the evidence based things first and

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Speaker 3: then you know, play around and then later play play

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Speaker 3: around with your stuff. Is we wish him well?

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Speaker 2: I guess we do wish him well?

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Speaker 1: What is he doing about this?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so his team reportedly is talking about doing car

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Speaker 2: tee therapy for him. This is this is crazy. So

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Speaker 2: there's no actual treatment for an immune gastritis. Like you

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Speaker 2: do iron supplementation, you monitor they have an increased risk

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Speaker 2: of cancers, and so you just do gaster cancer screening

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Speaker 2: when the eddoscopy and stuff. It's just sort of you know,

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Speaker 2: supportive care. Car T cell therapy is like primarily a

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Speaker 2: therapy for cancer where you take people's T cells out

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Speaker 2: of their body and you rev them up so they're hyperactive,

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Speaker 2: and you infuse them back in and you have this

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Speaker 2: massive immune reaction that's supposed to kill tumor cells. In

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Speaker 2: the hospital, the reaction that patients get when you reinfuse

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Speaker 2: car T cells into them, that inflammatory immune reaction is

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Speaker 2: so robust we call it a cartastrophe. They often get

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Speaker 2: into the intensive care unit with an it looks like

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Speaker 2: septic shock, like their pressure is bottoming out and their

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Speaker 2: you know, their fever is spiking, but there's no infectious organized.

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Speaker 2: It's just they have all these rev duvet cells in them.

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Speaker 2: This is a classic example of VIP syndrome, like very

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Speaker 2: important person syndrome, where doctors will well do weird stuff

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Speaker 2: for people that like you wouldn't do for an ordinary person,

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Speaker 2: and actually it probably harms the VVIP. This definitely happens.

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Speaker 1: All right, with that, let's turn back to pregnancy brain.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're back with what's the deal with pregnancy brain?

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Speaker 2: And we're so excited to welcome Alison Williams back to

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Speaker 2: discuss with us.

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Speaker 4: Hi, I'm happy to be back. I'm sure all of

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Speaker 4: that health news was fascinating.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so we're going to talk today about pregnancy brain.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about our personal experience with this,

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Speaker 3: but also scientifically about what happens to the brain during pregnancy.

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Speaker 3: And I think the way I would like to structure

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Speaker 3: answering your questions, Allison, are to start by talking about

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Speaker 3: literally what do we know happens to the brain, and

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Speaker 3: then talk about how that connects to some of these

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Speaker 3: things like ADHD or postpartum depression, and how we can

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Speaker 3: separate diagnosis from actual changes from life circumstance changes and

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Speaker 3: hopefully get to the bottom of it. So I want

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Speaker 3: to start with the fact that your brain shrinks during pregnancy.

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Speaker 3: That is my first most interesting fact. And Perry, since

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Speaker 3: you're the doctor here but not have never been pregnant,

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Speaker 3: please tell.

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Speaker 4: Us why did you do this in us?

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Speaker 1: Our brain size is what's wrong with you?

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Speaker 4: Why did you decide to do that to us?

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Speaker 2: I'm going to spin this in the most positive way

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Speaker 2: I can. I mean, if you're listening at the top

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Speaker 2: of the episode, like, pregnancy is a complete physiologic disaster,

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Speaker 2: but let me let me put a number on it.

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Speaker 2: The estrogen level of a premenopausal woman, you know, varies

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Speaker 2: over the course of the month, but like, let's say

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Speaker 2: it's four hundred peekograms per mile leader, so okay, four hundred.

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Speaker 2: In the third trimester of pregnancy, it's thirty thousand. It

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Speaker 2: is absolutely insane, and for the men, because like it's

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Speaker 2: about time someone speaks for the men when it comes

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Speaker 2: to pregnancy.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for doing this every time too.

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Speaker 2: I'm so brief.

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Speaker 4: You got a center the right people.

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Speaker 2: Men. Do you remember the testosterone replacement therapy episode where

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Speaker 2: we pointed out that anabolic steroids like the kind you're

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Speaker 2: juicing with are just synthetic forms of testosterone that are

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Speaker 2: about ten times more potent, and that ten times increase

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Speaker 2: in testosterone level causes muscles to grow. But also, you know,

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Speaker 2: liver disease and heart disease, and roid rage and hair

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Speaker 2: loss and acne and all these hot, horrible things. That's

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Speaker 2: ten times the baseline level of your sort of standard

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Speaker 2: hormone pregnancy is one hundred times higher. It's insane. You

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Speaker 2: asked about brain shrinkage. The positive spin on this is yet,

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Speaker 2: So this is true. This is based on actually several

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Speaker 2: studies that have used MRIs and other techniques, and it

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Speaker 2: finds about a four and a half to five percent

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Speaker 2: decrease in gray matter, which is like the literally the

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Speaker 2: neurons in your brain over the course of pregnancy. The

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Speaker 2: thought is that pregnancy is actually a neuroplasticity event. The

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Speaker 2: brain is cutting a bunch of connections that had existed

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Speaker 2: to essentially make room for a slew of new connections,

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Speaker 2: including the ones that will lead to, like the social

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Speaker 2: interaction with the child, which is going to become such

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Speaker 2: an important thing to the brain once delivery happens. So

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Speaker 2: it might not just be that you're sitting in a

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Speaker 2: toxic stew of hormones for the last three months of pregnancy.

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Speaker 2: It might actually be evolutionary indicated so that your brain

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Speaker 2: is ready to bond better with your child.

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Speaker 3: What do you think, M I feel like this is

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Speaker 3: this is like it's cutting all the parts of the

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Speaker 3: brain that like, you know, knew how to like go

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Speaker 3: out to the club, and then replacing the parts that are.

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Speaker 4: Medical explanation for losing those parts of the brain much earlier,

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Speaker 4: if the parts of the brain that were like you

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Speaker 4: don't need to cry right now. This is really good.

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Speaker 3: But a question that I have wondered about and I

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Speaker 3: think is sort of in here is like you we

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Speaker 3: are not using all of our brain all the time,

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Speaker 3: so we are not using all of them.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: This is the fact that you're told as a kid

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Speaker 3: is like you only ever use ten percent of your

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Speaker 3: brain and most of it just sits around or whatever.

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Speaker 1: I'm not really sure if that's true, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's true.

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Speaker 2: But you're right there, like we're not using all of

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Speaker 2: our brain at every second.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but when we shrink our brain by five percent,

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Speaker 3: like is that a meaningful number? This gets to some

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Speaker 3: of the broader questions of like is it just like

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Speaker 3: it's shrinking and kind of in ways that are not

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Speaker 3: that important, or is it shrinking in ways that are meaningful? Alison,

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Speaker 3: I'm curious whether you felt during pregnancy. I know we're

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Speaker 3: talking about after, but like, did you feel during pregnancy

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Speaker 3: that your brain was drinking?

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Speaker 4: I started to I didn't feel it for the first

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Speaker 4: two trimesters, but by the end I was like, I'm

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Speaker 4: not in my body, I'm not in my brain. I

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Speaker 4: who's amygdala?

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Speaker 2: Is this?

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Speaker 4: Like everything fell foreign? And also I'm not a hyper

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Speaker 4: emotional person, and Emily, I know you're deeply emotional, so

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Speaker 4: this might be hard to really too. That was a

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Speaker 4: joke because I'm sort of like wishing we had a

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Speaker 4: deeply emotional person here to represent what that's like, because

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Speaker 4: I can't imagine what that would be like. But I

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Speaker 4: just have this one snapshot of me about two weeks

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Speaker 4: shy of delivering. When I made myself pasta and when

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Speaker 4: I took it off the stove, I just dumped it

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Speaker 4: into the sink without a calendar. I don't cook a lot, obviously,

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Speaker 4: and I burst into tears. I was like, this is

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Speaker 4: an unfixable problem, like that time is gone, that pasta's gone.

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Speaker 4: I just was like weeping in the kitchen, sort of

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Speaker 4: like paralyzed with the inability to decide what to do next,

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Speaker 4: like lacking all the skills to handle this situation. I

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Speaker 4: felt like a little kid again. And that is a

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Speaker 4: moment where I felt just like I want all of

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Speaker 4: my old machinery back, and I never got it back,

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Speaker 4: like I got new stuff. I feel like when I

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Speaker 4: lost the five percent, it didn't that same five percent

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Speaker 4: didn't just come back. It was you know, it was different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, something fundamentally changed.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think this connects to the second piece here,

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Speaker 3: which is what happens to measured cognitive function in the data,

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Speaker 3: because it's one thing to sort of say, Okay, the

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Speaker 3: brain shrinks and then it comes back to normal, and

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Speaker 3: it maybe come back to normal in a different with

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Speaker 3: a sort of different set of connections. But there was

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Speaker 3: also a fair amount of research about sort of during

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Speaker 3: pregnancy specific declines and cognitive function in memory and executive function.

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Speaker 3: A lot of this is about kind of processing speed

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Speaker 3: and these sort of measures of like just how how

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Speaker 3: much stuck can you hold in your brain at the

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Speaker 3: same time, and how good is your verbal memory.

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Speaker 1: That's like a common way to measure this.

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Speaker 3: And I think this will this illustrates to me a

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Speaker 3: general problem with all of these discussions, which is that

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Speaker 3: there's there's something we can measure, which is how is

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Speaker 3: your brain actually changing? And then if we measure some change,

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Speaker 3: we then want to say, like why we want toust

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Speaker 3: so story about like either it's because of the hormones

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Speaker 3: all in the brain, or it could be because you're tired,

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Speaker 3: or because because you're paying attention to it, or it

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Speaker 3: could be because like you're thinking about a lot of

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Speaker 3: different things and there's a lot of new stimuli and

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Speaker 3: like you know, when you poured the pasta in the sink.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't because you got stupider.

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Speaker 3: It was because you were also thinking about how you

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Speaker 3: like had to buy a crib and uh, and you.

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Speaker 1: Hadn't gotten enough sleep.

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Speaker 3: So I think the like in all of this stuff,

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Speaker 3: it's going to be incredibly difficult to separate the like

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Speaker 3: life circumstance change from the sort of some kind of

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Speaker 3: true biological parameter.

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Speaker 2: And we've also talked before about how hard it is

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Speaker 2: to measure the something that we all understand conceptually, like

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Speaker 2: brain fog, whatever you want to call it, right, like

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Speaker 2: pregnancy brain, brain fog, you know, baby brain, these subjective

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Speaker 2: states of like I don't feel as smart as I

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Speaker 2: normally do. That's there's no test for that, right, there's

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Speaker 2: not an IQ test that pulls that out. You have

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Speaker 2: to do all this really specific neurocognitive testing, you know,

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Speaker 2: to see if there are problems with like, oh, your

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Speaker 2: verbal memory, which is, you know, can you think of

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Speaker 2: the word for calender? Or your semantic memory, which is

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Speaker 2: like do you know who fought in the War of

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Speaker 2: eighteen twelve? Like, these are actually different things and they

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Speaker 2: get teased out differently. Can I tell my wife's pregnancy

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00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: brain story because I think it illustrates this really nicely.

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Speaker 2: So my wife is a breast cancer surgeon and she

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Speaker 2: is in the operating room, very pregnant with our second

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00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 2: and you've probably seen this on TV, but it's it's

439
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: literally true. Like if you're the surgeon, you don't want

440
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 2: to look away from the field, like you're looking down

441
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: into the operating field, and so you just stick your

442
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: hand out without looking and you say the name of

443
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 2: the instrument you want, right like you want an adsons retractor,

444
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: or you want, you know, a debate or whatever it is.

445
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: They have these names.

446
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 4: I was going to say the same thing.

447
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the ones. I'm actually holding those right now?

448
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: How many My destra full of debate's right here? And

449
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: the scrup text job is they're standing with all the

450
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: clean instruments, is to hand you the thing that you

451
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: ask for, or to anticipate the thing that you ask for.

452
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: And she was having this situation where she's like in there,

453
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: she's operating, and she holds her hand out and she's

454
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: like the the thing you know with the one with

455
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: the teeth, the thing you know, and the scrub tech

456
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: because scrub techs are amazing, handed her the proper instrument,

457
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: and you know, they all kind of laughed about it

458
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 2: because they'd been pregnant too, and it's one of those situations,

459
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: but it illustrated to me. So like operationally, the muscle

460
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 2: memories there, and all the testing in pregnant women and

461
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: postpartum women suggest that, like physical memory, muscle memory doesn't

462
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: really change. If you can swing a golf club, you

463
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 2: can still swing a golf club. But so she could

464
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: do the operation just fine, she just couldn't name the

465
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: instrument that she needed at that time. And verbal memory

466
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: is certainly affected during pregnancy and after pregnancy.

467
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 4: That is fascinating. Yeah, you're literally a surgeon doing a

468
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 4: surgery and yet you're still not spared. You still have

469
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 4: a human brain.

470
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Okay, so there are a million physiologic changes

471
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: that happen when you're pregnant, and it might be worth

472
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: just talking about how those things affect your brain. So,

473
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: for example, you might know that there is a forty

474
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 2: to fifty percent increase in blood volume during pregnancy. So okay,

475
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: that's crazy in and of itself, but what that means

476
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 2: that volume expansion paces the production of red blood cells,

477
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: which gives some anemia. Pregnant women tend to have you know,

478
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 2: more anemia, less red blood cell counts, which means not

479
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,719
Speaker 2: as much oxygen carrying capacity not you know, which can

480
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 2: certainly affect if your brain is firing on all cylinders.

481
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the cardiovascular changes. So your heart rate

482
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: is up by about thirty to fifty percent during pregnancy.

483
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: This is a big energy expenditure. This takes calories and

484
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: that can contribute to fatigue, reduces cognitive stamina. The respiratory side,

485
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 2: tidal volume, how much air you breathe in when you

486
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: take a breath, increases during until you until you're restricted

487
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: by belly volume. But for the first few for the

488
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: first couple trimesters, about a thirty to fifty percent increase

489
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: in tidal volume leads to slight hyper ventilation, which means

490
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: your blood carries less carbon dioxide can contribute to feeling

491
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: light headed or dizzy. And one last thing I've mentioned

492
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 2: several times, just the enormous, enormous surge in hormones. We

493
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: talked a lot about estrogen, but progesterone also goes up

494
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: by about five hundredfold compared to baseline, and progesterone has

495
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 2: some mild sedative effects. So it's almost as if the

496
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: whole like physiologic state of pregnancy is conspiring to put

497
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: you in a place where your brain is not working well,

498
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: where you're tired, and you know your body is just

499
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: like people sometimes say that the purpose of your body

500
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: is to get your brain from one place to another, right,

501
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: like your body is to support your brain. You are

502
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: your brain. Well, true, except during pregnancy, when the body

503
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 2: just decides screw your brain. I'm focusing on the baby.

504
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: Okay, let's talk about the two good things about brains

505
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: before we talk about postpartum changes. So why is that

506
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 3: while your brain is remapping you get better at recognizing

507
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 3: recognition tasks. So if we sort of think about the

508
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 3: pieces that you don't that you need to be don't

509
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 3: need to be as good at, like going to the

510
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: club or whatever, then there's a set of things you

511
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: need to be better at in evolutionary standpoint, which is

512
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 3: like recognizing threats. And so we do see some evidence

513
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 3: that people get better at sort of differentiating between like

514
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 3: known and unknown faces in pregnancy, which may have some

515
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 3: beneficial ability to recognize who is you know, an outgroup

516
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: and in a group member and who do you want

517
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 3: to trust more with your baby.

518
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: That's super fascinating that I always feel like so much

519
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: of the things we think of as our own thoughts

520
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: and emotions are just like the monkey inside of us

521
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: doing monkey things.

522
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true, But then I also think

523
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: it's so easy to write just so stories about evolution.

524
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: We're just like, well, I guess evolution is why that happened.

525
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 3: It often is the Culpridge generally true.

526
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 4: But I also feel like when you were saying this

527
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 4: is like a medical disaster pregnancy, I've been saying this

528
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 4: for a long time, Like I have so many notes

529
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: for like whoever's in charge for Charles Darwin? I guess

530
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 4: because I'm like, why do men have nipples? Why do

531
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 4: I have pinky toes?

532
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 5: Why?

533
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: Like why you know all of these things appendices like

534
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 4: we don't need? And why are children brought into the

535
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: earth the way they are? Why is there no new

536
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 4: way a velcrow opening perhaps, or a zipper or a

537
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 4: magic Wand like as I approach childbirth, I was like,

538
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 4: is there honestly no like VIP secret third way to

539
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 4: do this? Who do I have to talk to to

540
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 4: not go through either of these situations?

541
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: This is so geeky of me. But I remember watching

542
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: Star Trek when I was younger, and they would have

543
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: every once in a while, like someone would be pregnant,

544
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: and and I was like, why don't they just transport

545
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: the baby out like we're speming people down to the planet. Why,

546
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: Like what, how is this not? Is this not the

547
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: main thing?

548
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 4: That's what I want my tax dollars going towards. It's

549
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 4: the hovercraft from Back to the Future that we were

550
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 4: promised and has not appeared.

551
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: We're told, where is that we're told?

552
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 4: And I want to be able to like disaporate my child,

553
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 4: to use Harry Potter verbit from my belly into the world.

554
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 4: But I also think about the fact that evolutionarily, also

555
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: because I have a four and a half year old,

556
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 4: we talking about dinosaurs all the time. We've been around

557
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 4: for a tiny blip of history, but like a triceratops,

558
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 4: by the time they were extinct was like peak. Triceratops

559
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 4: had had millions of years to become the best version.

560
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: Of saying we're not done yet, We've got.

561
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 3: And we're gonna still the triceratops was not disaporating the

562
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 3: baby out, but.

563
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: Well, that's right. Wasn't it egg laying? According to Jurassic Park?

564
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: I know nothing about.

565
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 4: Eratops Jurassic Park, Yeah, triceratog.

566
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: Which also seems like a better way.

567
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 4: We're aggling. Yeah, that's right.

568
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: I mean, if it's small.

569
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 3: My worst pregnancy dream was one where the baby did

570
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: just come out and then but it was like too early,

571
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: and then I had to like get it back in

572
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 3: and like it just but it came out just like

573
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 3: like open like a velcro, you know now, like caseful,

574
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: and just like velcrode itself out, and then I had

575
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: to be like, no, no, no, it's not time yet, like

576
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: put it back in.

577
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: Do you know that humans have babies way earlier than

578
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: they should according to our body size and level of

579
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: fetal development, Like we should be pregnant for several more

580
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: months and and we're not because our brains are so

581
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: big that they.

582
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 4: Have called the cranial it's there's a name for it,

583
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 4: a conundrum among because yes, evolutionarily, like our hip size

584
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 4: versus our brain size have forced us into a what

585
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 4: is it called? Do you remember? I don't want to

586
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: be born into Homo sapiens now, I want to do

587
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 4: it in one hundred million years when we are like

588
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 4: peak homosapiens.

589
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: Okay, anyway, sorry, I got all right.

590
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: Let us come back to our pregnancy brain because I

591
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: want to come back to the post pregnancy period because

592
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: many of these like physiological issues that happen during pregnancy

593
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: actually do sort of resolve post pregnancy. So your brain

594
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 3: grows back differently, but it gets it's five percent back.

595
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: And there's actually some super interesting research about the like

596
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: age of your brain as measured by brain age researchers postpartum.

597
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: So in the period from like like two weeks postpartum

598
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 3: to like three months postpartum, your brain actually ages backwards

599
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: quite quickly. And so whatever sort of aid terrible aging

600
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: was occurring during pregnancy, you like get some.

601
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: Of it backs postpartum.

602
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 3: And so there's this sort of feeling of like things

603
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: are kind of returning brain in some way. And yet

604
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: this is also a period in which we see a

605
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 3: lot of we see postpartum depression, we see postpartum anxiety,

606
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 3: we see potentially changes in other kinds of diagnoses, And

607
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: I think that is that's this sort of secondary period,

608
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 3: and it's really hard to separate how much of those

609
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 3: changes are about actual brain changes and how much of

610
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: those changes are about like almost a diagnosis window where

611
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 3: you're seeing people more.

612
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: And there's no neuroanatomical correlate of depression, like even putting

613
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: a side postpartum depression. You can't take people with major

614
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: depressive disorder and put them in an MRI scanner and

615
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: see significant differences in brain structure. I mean, there are

616
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: some experiments that are trying to tease this out, but

617
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: it really is about the connectivity and the interactions between

618
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: brain regions that drive these things, which means like a

619
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: simple test like how big is your brain, how small

620
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: you know, whatever, is not going to be enough.

621
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, So let's talk about postpartum depression and

622
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 3: postpartum anxiety first because these are probably the main primary

623
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 3: diagnoses that people get. So, Allison, you said you had

624
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 3: postpardon depression. Can you talk about that? Are you open

625
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: to talking?

626
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 4: Yeah? I never, I'm an anxiety girlie. So that's the

627
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 4: side of the street I was familiar with. But so

628
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 4: I had never, I don't think, been in a depression

629
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 4: in my life, so I didn't actually identify it until

630
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 4: I was out of it, which is apparently a very

631
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 4: common thing. Because you're just getting through it. And also

632
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 4: those early months and weeks of motherhood are such a

633
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 4: subjective experience that it's one of the few moments in

634
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 4: life where you can exchange techniques, data, concrete information. But

635
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 4: trading experience stories is not an impulse I had until

636
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 4: I was through it, whereas now I get a ton

637
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 4: of I don't know, satisfaction from talking about something I'm

638
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 4: dealing with in this exact moment as a parent with

639
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 4: my friends who are also going through it. There's a reporting,

640
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 4: live factor that I was not able to channel in

641
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 4: the moment, and I think part of it is a

642
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 4: it felt like a valve was switched in my brain

643
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 4: that was like, no need to overthink any of this,

644
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 4: just get through it. And what was happening was just overwhelming. Emotionally,

645
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 4: it was a lot of instances of just real feeling

646
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 4: very disconnected from my son, initially, feeling very alone, very isolated,

647
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: and despite having family nearby, a super supportive, loving husband, therapist,

648
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: like I had kind of all the resources you can have,

649
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,959
Speaker 4: we did not have nanny or a night nurse or anything,

650
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 4: so I also was dealing with sleep deprivation. But I

651
00:35:54,920 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 4: just it just felt like everything was devasa and I

652
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 4: would very often sit on the couch where I was

653
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 4: constantly breastfeeding our son, and I have this like very

654
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 4: clear example of what it felt like to be in

655
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 4: my body. My husband would come like flying through the hallway,

656
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 4: like doing his twelfth load of laundry, and he'd be like,

657
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 4: do you need me to refill your water? And like

658
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 4: time would stop, and then like ten minutes later, I

659
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 4: would have done the complicated trigonometry to answer the question,

660
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 4: because what my brain was doing was, Okay, yes, my

661
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 4: water bottle is empty, but I want to be self sufficient.

662
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 4: I want to be the kind of person that can

663
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 4: fill my own water bottle, but I'm breastfeeding, so I

664
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 4: can't and it'll be a little while and I need

665
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 4: water to breastfeed. He's standing right there. Oh my god,

666
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 4: he's so impatient. I'm still thinking this through, shouldn't I be?

667
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 4: And it was just happening, and I'm a ruminator in general,

668
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 4: but it was going on twice as long, twice the

669
00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 4: self judgment. It was just like everything was magnified, and slowly,

670
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 4: after I came out of it, I realized just how

671
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 4: dark some of those moments were and how difficult it

672
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 4: is to express them while they're happening. And I think

673
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 4: that's part of what makes it so gnarly, is that

674
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 4: I don't know a ton of women who were able

675
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 4: to speak from their postpartum depression while it was happening,

676
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 4: rather than about it in retrospect. But it also sucks

677
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 4: because you're like, when people ask you how it's going

678
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 4: or how's the baby, there's a there's one right vibe

679
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 4: to channel after that question.

680
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: Going great, Yeah, exactly, I love it so much.

681
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 4: Yes, he's because that's also true. You're completely obsessed with

682
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 4: this little person who you also are so frustrated with

683
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: sometimes and so exhausted by, and so both things are true,

684
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 4: and intuitively you just know that. Just give the surface

685
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 4: level answer and case keep it moving. And I wish

686
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 4: I had been treated for depression while it was happening.

687
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 4: I probably should have begun treatment before I delivered, because

688
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 4: I think it kind of started a little bit before then.

689
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean that's sort of what it looked like.

690
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 4: It's very hard to describe as you just experienced, because

691
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 4: I talked for like five minutes and said nothing, because

692
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 4: it's hard to channel that place again. It's hard to

693
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 4: go back there, but I can just see moments of

694
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 4: just being completely stuck and feeling like I was underneath

695
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 4: a wave that I couldn't get up and out of.

696
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 3: So about half of because we're saying about half of

697
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 3: postpartum depression starts during pregnancy and so, and that is

698
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: often not screened for.

699
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: And then when you.

700
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 3: Have the babe this the hormonal changes like this estrogen

701
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 3: that was like bathing your self for all this last trimester,

702
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 3: like totally could just tanks off a cliff. And those

703
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: changes are very, very difficult, and so almost everybody, I

704
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 3: think this is part of the DT the sort of

705
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 3: diagnosis issue here. Almost everybody has a period of kind

706
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 3: of quite significant mood changes, like immediately afterwards.

707
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 4: Yes, my friends were like, beware day three, You're gonna

708
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 4: just like burst into tears on day three. And then

709
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 4: I was like, I feel fine. And then twenty minutes

710
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 4: later I was just bawling and I sent them a

711
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 4: picture of myself like just weeping for no reason.

712
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: I was like, can stay here. I have many memories

713
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: of that that period.

714
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 3: And then then for you know, many people, that sort

715
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: of for some people that normalizes and sort of what

716
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: we would really think about as diagnosable. Postpartum depression is

717
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 3: sort of can then creep up as late as you know,

718
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: almost a year after, you can creep up anytime, but

719
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: sort of can be cidered postpartum depression even up till

720
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 3: a relatively long period of time afterwards. And I will

721
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 3: say some of it is as Perry said, like the

722
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: there is no way to put you in an fMRI

723
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 3: machine or some kind of like blood test and be like, okay,

724
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: this is what you have. And so we are left

725
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 3: with trying to screen people and give them appropriate treatments.

726
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 3: But it really in some ways doesn't matter whether you

727
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 3: diagnosed or not, Like, if you have this consolation of symptoms,

728
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 3: then you should be getting some treatment.

729
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think you know what Alison brought

730
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 2: up that's really important for people to hear is that,

731
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: of course you have an alternative explanation than postpartum depression.

732
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: There's a million other ways that you can justify it

733
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: to yourself that like, oh, I'm probably okay and I'll

734
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: just get through this, but don't do that. You know,

735
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: if these symptoms are significantly different than baby brain and

736
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: brain fog, you know the things that make postpartum depression

737
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 2: postparum depression. If you look at the diagnostic criteria, it's

738
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: intense dysphoria, right, like, this is real deep sadness, not

739
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: confusion and stuff like that. Like you might see it's

740
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: an hodonia, which is that inability to feel pleasure and

741
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: things you normally take pleasure in, right, like a numbness

742
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 2: can be depression. Many, but not all, women with postpartum

743
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: depression actually have insomnia, which is sort of different than

744
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: what you see with you know, more typical exhaustion. I'm

745
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: up all night, like if you can't sleep when the

746
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: baby is sleeping. Those are signs of postpartum depression. And

747
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: of course many women make it through this and that's great,

748
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 2: but not all of them do. Like, this is a

749
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: potentially life threatening disease, so it's not something to sleep on.

750
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: And we're talking a lot about like the funn you know,

751
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: people like to tell the funny baby brain stories and whatever,

752
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: like my wife asking for the wrong instrument in the

753
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: operating room and it's like haha, you know, but postpartum

754
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: depression is what ten fifteen percent of women, at least

755
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 2: as far as we know, probably even higher because it

756
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: goes undiagnosed and is even potentially life threatening, right, so

757
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: be careful.

758
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we talked about postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety

759
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: is a different experience but diagnosed in almost exactly the

760
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 3: same way. It's actually the same screening tool for anxiety

761
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: and depression. There's like sort of slightly different ways of

762
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 3: scoring it. And I think this gets again at the

763
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 3: question of like it's a little hard to separate experience

764
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 3: from like that there's some truth generally postpartum anxiety is

765
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 3: more anxiety and less depression, but there's a sort of

766
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 3: fine line there, and so when we think about diagnosing,

767
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 3: it's really about just trying to figure out to think

768
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: how things are going, and then what is the right

769
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: next treatment as opposed to like we need to label

770
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: it a particular way and.

771
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 4: They're treated very often with the same medication too exactly,

772
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 4: and they.

773
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I want to talk about then some of

774
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: these later things, like the ADHD diagnoses, because there is

775
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 3: there's like the immediate postparton period when I think people

776
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: expect maybe there's some you have some postpard depression or

777
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: postpartum anxiety. You also expect to feel like slower and

778
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 3: so on. But then there's a much longer postpartum period

779
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 3: in which I think many people with small children kind

780
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: of feel like I'm still not quite, like like I'm

781
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 3: not back, you know, I was hoping to be back,

782
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 3: and I'm not back.

783
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: And this is.

784
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 3: Where so I pulled up in thinking about your question,

785
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: thinking about this episode, what I think is kind of

786
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 3: our best data about ADHD in particular. So there is

787
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 3: a this actually very recent paper, it's like two months old.

788
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 3: The most recent paper we have discussed on this is this.

789
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: The one from the Danish study.

790
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 3: So it's a it's a Danish study which looks at

791
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 3: ADHD diagnoses around pregnancy. It's very big because in these

792
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 3: European studies you have like everything about everybody.

793
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: So I'm so jealous of the data sets that total.

794
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: It's amazing.

795
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 3: So they have like three hundred and sixty thousand mothers

796
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 3: five hundred and twenty sorry, yeah, three hundred and sixty

797
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 3: three thousand.

798
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm like, my.

799
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 3: Children are fifteen years old and eleven, so I'm still recovering.

800
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

801
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 3: They have a very large sample size, let's just say that.

802
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 3: And they're looking at these ADHD rates and it's quite

803
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 3: interesting because they actually decrease during pregnancy and remain low

804
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 3: for a couple of years, and then they increase significantly

805
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 3: about twenty five percent.

806
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 1: Higher diagnoses two to five years postpartum. So we sort

807
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: of are.

808
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 3: Seeing this like uptick in this particular diagnosis in this

809
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 3: kind of like one your kids at toddler.

810
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 4: And I think that's there.

811
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: They're in this popular right there, And there's actually like

812
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: many different ways to interpret that. So one, I now

813
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 3: don't think that in this paper we can really tell

814
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 3: what's going on. So I think one possibility is that

815
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 3: this is like actually brain changes that are driving differences

816
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 3: in sort of the way that your brain works postpartum.

817
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 3: I guess second option is that the symptoms here are

818
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 3: close enough to the symptoms you might have of sort

819
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: of being overwhelmed and being tired and having a lot

820
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 3: of things going on that it would kind of you'd

821
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 3: get a diagnosis even though it's maybe almost situational isn't

822
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 3: quite the right word, but it's sort of being driven

823
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: by life experience and other possibilities people had adh this

824
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: entire time, and it is only because it's a little

825
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: exacerbated by having kids. And also this is a period

826
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: of time which maybe people are paying more attention, perhaps

827
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: maybe because they're noticing some of the symptoms in their

828
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 3: own kids that then they're saying, oh, that was me.

829
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 3: And this is a thing I hear a lot from parents,

830
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 3: which is very interesting, is sort of like my kid

831
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 3: was diagnosed with ADHD, and I realized, oh, like I

832
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: have that too, Like all of these things that I

833
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 3: thought were just like the way that I am are

834
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 3: actually like I maybe could have been getting some treatment

835
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 3: for this. And so I think there's like a bunch

836
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: of stuff there. I'm not sure we really have any

837
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 3: ability to separate those things out.

838
00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it matters.

839
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 4: But yeah, well, I guess what's what intrigues me about?

840
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 4: Like why do I want to know? The answer to

841
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 4: that is sort of I always find diagnoses of any

842
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 4: kind empowering. I think part of that is having anxiety

843
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 4: means that before the diagnosis, a huge amount of my

844
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 4: operating system is expending energy coming up with theories. Even

845
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 4: in the back of my mind, it's just ruminating on

846
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 4: what this is, why it is blank? And so someone

847
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 4: saying you are experiencing X, Y or Z, I find

848
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 4: deeply relaxing, even if what they're telling me I'm experiencing

849
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 4: is objectively stressful, because then I'm no longer wondering. I

850
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 4: just know and now I can do something about it.

851
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 4: And so for me to think of myself as having

852
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 4: a new brain rather than waiting to come back, has

853
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 4: been a very useful distinction for me, because I found

854
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 4: it depressing to think of my brain, which I really liked,

855
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 4: which was very high functioning. I was a big fan.

856
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 4: I can say that now because I feel like I

857
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 4: don't have it anymore, and I'm not like bridening.

858
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: It feels like it's not anymore. No, it's not.

859
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 4: It's like I'm talking about like I don't know what

860
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 4: my calves looked like when I was twelve, Like, you know,

861
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 4: it's the past part of me that doesn't exist anymore.

862
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 4: I loved it, and waiting for it to come back

863
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 4: was depressing, It was upsetting, it was frustrating, and it

864
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 4: wasn't going to happen. And so for me switching to

865
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 4: thinking this experience that I had fundamentally altered me in

866
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 4: literally every way. But it altered my like synapses, my

867
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 4: you know, everything about my cognition such that I now

868
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 4: have a new operating system. I have to learn how

869
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 4: it works and learn how to best support it and

870
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 4: find out how to use it, Like I learned how

871
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 4: to use my old brain and use this one for

872
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 4: whatever I need it for now. And I found that

873
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 4: to be really useful. And that could just be me,

874
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 4: or it could be it could be other people as well.

875
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: No, I think it's I think it's actually very interesting

876
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 3: and valuable frame for people, in part because so many

877
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 3: of these things are are really like diagnoses of like

878
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 3: experience and how are things working for you? And so

879
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 3: to say like, you know, well you didn't have ADHD before,

880
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 3: so let's not look for that as a solution may

881
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 3: be unhelpful as opposed to being like, right now, we

882
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: should try to figure out, like what's going on and

883
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: how can we best support your functioning as a person,

884
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 3: whether that's something that was true before or not. And

885
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: it may be for some people to say the like, well,

886
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 3: now you know my brain, the operating system is different

887
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 3: and we need.

888
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: Like a different set of you know, software tools.

889
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 4: I also think we live in a time where we're

890
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 4: really lucky we don't we don't technically have to white

891
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 4: knuckle a lot of the things that we tolerate. So

892
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 4: the idea that I can talk to my psychiatrist and say, Okay,

893
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 4: we're gonna address my anxiety because that's too much. I'm

894
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 4: fed up. I can't live like this. It's exhausting. And

895
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 4: then once that's been addressed, there are all these other

896
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 4: behaviors and these other executive functioning issues that are revealed

897
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 4: not to be part of the anxiety but something else.

898
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 4: The fact that I don't have to live with those

899
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 4: and tolerate those and spend the energy operating around those

900
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 4: is such a privilege of you know, I talk, I

901
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 4: talking a lot of shit about being a human in

902
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 4: this stage of evolution, but we're very smart because those

903
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 4: big brains, and we've developed medication that means I don't

904
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 4: have to just figure out how to live with these

905
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 4: things if I don't want to. There is help available

906
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 4: to me, which is so incredible. And I wish I

907
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 4: had availed myself a bit sooner. And I can't, like

908
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 4: I don't know, biohack my way through it or just

909
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 4: you know, I don't know what and get rid of

910
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 4: you tried any time I have injected them into my

911
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 4: brain and it didn't work.

912
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: I'm doing it wrong.

913
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: As you're talking about you know what changes are long term,

914
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: and yeah, of course it's really hard to measure, but

915
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 2: I will just say, like number one, our brains are

916
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: changing all the time, right, Like we can learn, we

917
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 2: can go to therapy. You know, It's always been sort

918
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 2: of an amazing thing to me that talk therapy works,

919
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: and it's just somehow like if you really make it abstract,

920
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 2: like someone is speaking words into your ear and it's

921
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 2: reprogramming slowly your brain until it's connected in a slightly

922
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: different way that makes you feel better. I always think

923
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 2: that's amazing. So these changes are always happening. I can't

924
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 2: imagine a more significant physiologic event than pregnancy. I think

925
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: I've said this multiple times right now, you know, I

926
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 2: don't think anyone would take a person who like, like

927
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: went through chemotherapy and came out the other side cancer

928
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: free and would be like like, okay, and so you're

929
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: back to normal now, right like everything, you're the same

930
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: person you were before you did chemo, right, Like that

931
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 2: would be almost considered inappropriate, Like how are you not

932
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: respecting the struggle I just went through? And pregnancy is

933
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 2: much like this, Like I definitely think your brain is different,

934
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 2: It's different forever. That's not all bad. In fact, you know,

935
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 2: Emily pointed out some of the brain aging data that

936
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 2: looks at like, you know, whether you when you're sixty,

937
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: do you have a brain of a sixty one year

938
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,439
Speaker 2: old or a fifty nine year old or a fifty

939
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 2: five year old. And one of the predictors of how

940
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: young your brain is in older age is how many

941
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,720
Speaker 2: children you've had with I was going to ask.

942
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 4: Is it cumulative these effects over several children or yeah.

943
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: So the study that I was looking at, there's two here.

944
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: One is from the UK Biobank, which is which is

945
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 2: a big study hundreds of thousands of people over time,

946
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 2: which does show that multiparis women, women who had you know,

947
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 2: more than one child had younger brains than women who

948
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: had one child, which had a younger brain than women

949
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: who never had children. There's also a smaller study out

950
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 2: of Rotterdam that basically showed a dose response where the

951
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 2: more kids you had, the more great matter volume you

952
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 2: had in older age. So yes, so it's the same

953
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: gray matter that like shrinks during pregnancy, you end up

954
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: with more in older age. I did dig a little

955
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 2: bit deeply and found there there was one study that, look,

956
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: what's the term, Emily, for women who've had like a

957
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: lot a lot of babies, Like, uh, super multi paris

958
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: what's it called?

959
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:24,760
Speaker 1: Yes, Like, yes, it's super?

960
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 2: Is that what it is?

961
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: Something like that?

962
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm honestly I forget. In any case, there does

963
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: seem to maybe it falls off like after you know,

964
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: seven eight kids. But but the question is, I don't

965
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 2: think it's the pregnancy that makes your brain better. I

966
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 2: think it's the children to some extent, like children represent

967
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 2: this whole new source of novelty in your life. Like

968
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: the thing that counterpoint, I'm about to say something very

969
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 2: sweet about my children who may listen to this someday.

970
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 2: One of the wonderful things about having children is that

971
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: the only way you get to experience something you love

972
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: for the first time again. So like I got to

973
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: watch The Fellowship of the Ring with my oldest daughter,

974
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: and I got to go through the whole thing again,

975
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 2: even though I'd seen it, you know, thirty thirty times

976
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 2: by the time. And I think that's good for your brain.

977
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 2: I think it. I think it keeps you. I think

978
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 2: they keep you young. All right, Emily, I'm wrong.

979
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 3: Why you know, just in rats having babies improves their

980
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 3: maze performance and long term spatial learning and memory and work.

981
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 3: And I don't think it's because they're parenting at a

982
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 3: high level. I mean there's no fellowship. They didnt show

983
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 3: them the fellowship with a ring or whatever. They just

984
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 3: probably have the babies in a way because it's fucking rats.

985
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 4: This way pure anetdata. But I actually do resonate with

986
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 4: that idea of spatial Like I think I recognize faces

987
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 4: and places better now than I did. Oh that's cir

988
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 4: my memory of like have I been to this restaurant before?

989
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 4: Have I met this person? Have I stayed at this hotel?

990
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 4: It was really bad before and now it's decent. So

991
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 4: that's interesting.

992
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: If it helps recognizing faces. I would love to be pregnant,

993
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: that is mine.

994
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 3: I cannot recognize faces, and I have been pregnant twice

995
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 3: and it did not approve.

996
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,800
Speaker 4: You have like a true face blindness.

997
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: Not a true face blindness, but I just can't. I like,

998
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 3: name face barely to who are you?

999
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 4: Who am I? I don't know.

1000
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: It'sciding your name is on the you know podcast thing?

1001
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, Okay, I want to before we before we

1002
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 3: end and get to question I want to talk about.

1003
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 3: I want to sort of step back one thing, because

1004
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 3: we talked a lot about like brain changes that are real,

1005
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 3: and you know the fact that maybe some of this

1006
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 3: is inevitable and so on, but there actually are some

1007
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: like biological changes during pregnancy that if you are feeling

1008
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 3: very tired or just very off, it actually is a

1009
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 3: worthwhile to get some blood work because, for example, a

1010
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 3: large share of women who have been pregnant women of

1011
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 3: child bearing age are anemic, and which means your iron

1012
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 3: is too low, and anemia can cause a lot of

1013
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 3: the kinds of symptoms we're talking about in particular, like

1014
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 3: brain fog and fatigue and just like a feeling of

1015
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: being quite exhausted. And so I would sort of balance

1016
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 3: a little bit as like your brain is new and

1017
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 3: you got a learn to live with it, and also

1018
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 3: like go get your thyroid and your anemia checked, because

1019
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 3: if it turns out that the answer to some of

1020
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 3: this is like you need to be taking an iron pill,

1021
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 3: like that would be good too no and too bad

1022
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 3: to miss.

1023
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, go for the easy fis. Yeah, totally. You know,

1024
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 2: other sort of treatments for we're going to put postpartum

1025
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 2: depression aside, obviously postpartum depression you want to get your

1026
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 2: treatments from a doctor and things like that. But for

1027
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 2: just the regular baby brain fog and stuff like that,

1028
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 2: obviously sleep is going to come up number one rustrating.

1029
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: Just you should just say more. I don't know why

1030
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 2: you guys.

1031
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 4: Why didn't I think of that?

1032
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,399
Speaker 2: So, actually, this is a good question. You both had

1033
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: a partner after the baby was born. How can partners

1034
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 2: support the new mom during this period so that she

1035
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 2: can get the much needed rest? Is it bringing cups

1036
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 2: of water without being.

1037
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 4: Asked in that doorway as long as I need you

1038
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 4: to before I can summon the words that I need.

1039
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 2: I think, then just bring a glass of water.

1040
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: You don't need, don't don't ask, just bring the water.

1041
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 4: I feel like, honestly, it's having respect for what's happening.

1042
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 4: It feels like there's just a knowledge gap. I don't

1043
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 4: think it's just among men. I think most women who

1044
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 4: go through this process don't understand what's happening to their

1045
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 4: bodies either. But I think you know that amount of

1046
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 4: hormonal shift is worthy of respect and awareness and acknowledgment

1047
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 4: and understanding that for I don't know what the biggest

1048
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 4: hormonal shift in a man is. I'm guessing it's around arousal,

1049
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 4: probably somehow, and we just.

1050
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: Don't have anything comparable in any way. But even doing so,

1051
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 2: the facts and a box spar it's for weightlifting is

1052
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 2: not the same.

1053
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe I mean, but even that, I just feel

1054
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 4: like understanding that it's both things can be true at

1055
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 4: the same time. The person you're talking to is your spouse,

1056
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 4: and you should take what they are saying and experiencing seriously.

1057
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 4: And if they wrote a document and had it notarized

1058
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 4: about their opinions and their feelings in a given moment,

1059
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 4: it may not feel correct anymore a week later, and

1060
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 4: that is okay, And it doesn't mean you should ignore

1061
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 4: what they say. You're in a liminal space where it

1062
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,439
Speaker 4: is and it isn't your partner, and what they say

1063
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 4: is and isn't true, and just deal with it because

1064
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 4: you're going to deal with it for such a brief

1065
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 4: period compared to the amount of time they spent in

1066
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 4: that liminal space themselves. That's kind of what I might say, Emily,

1067
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 4: what do you what do you think?

1068
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: That's such amazing advice.

1069
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: The main thing my husband did when he's made a

1070
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 3: spreadsheet that we could keep track of how many minutes

1071
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 3: my daughter was eating at different times and how many

1072
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 3: frequency of pooping, which I actually wouldn't.

1073
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 4: I remember you saying that on the podcast. There was

1074
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 4: a there's an app for that now called baby Trasher,

1075
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 4: which I will shock you by telling you. I also

1076
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 4: use just to feel some control over completely uncontrollable.

1077
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: I feel like spreadsheets are Emily's love language.

1078
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: Totally no, but I just don't think that's for everybody.

1079
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: Not sure that's well I think.

1080
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 3: But I will say my husband was constantly making sure

1081
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 3: that I was eating like his main His his love

1082
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 3: language was like like there is always.

1083
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: Water and like fruit next to the like breastfeeding chair.

1084
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 4: So nice, it's great, it's so nice.

1085
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 3: We haven't really discussed endurance sports yet, and so I

1086
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 3: just wanted to pop in here and say that that

1087
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 3: your elevated blood volume retains for about a year postpartum,

1088
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 3: and so there is some people think that that's why

1089
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 3: some people perform quite well at their sporting events in

1090
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 3: the first year postpartum, because of the potentially higher bloodvolume.

1091
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 3: And I represent the group that thanks lol sporting events

1092
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 3: in the first year post.

1093
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like a Yes, there are some other

1094
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: things that make.

1095
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 4: You slower, moving not in a walking pace from one

1096
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: room to another.

1097
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 3: All right, Perry, smash your pass on the pregnancy brain

1098
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 3: and even know what this means.

1099
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 2: I think it's important for me to weigh in here though.

1100
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

1101
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 4: As always, I'm a pass.

1102
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 2: I you know, let's let's get over. I agree with Alison.

1103
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 2: I don't know techno Bros. Fixed pregnancy. Emily, how about

1104
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 2: you smash pass.

1105
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 3: I'm a smash because I'm my kid's tiny pieces of

1106
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 3: my kids are around in my brain and that's and

1107
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 3: that's so great, Allison.

1108
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 4: I guess I'm I'm a reluctant smash for the same

1109
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 4: reason because now I'd be like passing on my child existing,

1110
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 4: and that feels insane because he's made the world so

1111
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 4: much better. But I have a lot of notes for

1112
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 4: the way it all goes down, and I don't know

1113
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 4: who to talk to about this, but it's we have

1114
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 4: a lot of improve room for improvement.

1115
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 3: I would say that is it for pregnancy brain. Allison's

1116
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 3: Mailbag question of the Week after the Break.

1117
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 4: Emily, I've come to realize that you are not just

1118
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 4: a casual runner. You are. You are runner like ken

1119
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 4: Is Beach. You are runner, and thus I have a

1120
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 4: question for you. I have to start doing cardio because

1121
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 4: I'm doing a movie that's going to require me to

1122
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 4: be cardiovascularly alive in a way that I'm not on

1123
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 4: a day to day basis. I have to pretend to

1124
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 4: be a type of person I'm not, which is my

1125
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 4: whole job. And I don't have extra time though to

1126
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 4: do this cardio. So I am wondering what is the

1127
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 4: best bang for my buck if I don't have a

1128
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 4: lot of time. But I just it's not necessarily about

1129
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 4: weight loss or anything. It's just about getting my ability

1130
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 4: to deliver lines while hyperventilating to be like, what's the

1131
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 4: what did Taylor Swift do before the airstore so she

1132
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,919
Speaker 4: could sing and run one hundred miles in a day?

1133
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 4: You know what do I do?

1134
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: Okay?

1135
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 3: So, first of all, what Taylor Swift did was she

1136
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 3: ran every day on the treadmill doing the entire set

1137
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 3: for three hours. So she would run like three hours

1138
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 3: a day on the treadmill doing the entire set. It

1139
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 3: sounds to me like you don't have time for that.

1140
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 4: I definitely don't, although I could because I'm such a

1141
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 4: swift ye, I could do the whole set.

1142
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: But you don't want to run?

1143
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 4: Is that I can't? My knees are just it's like

1144
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 4: someone read the instructions wrong when they put my knees together.

1145
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 4: They don't, okay, work properly.

1146
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 3: So you're pretty I think this is not a very

1147
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 3: hard question to answer because what you really want to

1148
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 3: be doing is spending some time in like a high

1149
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 3: heart rate zone like zone four five and out of

1150
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:21,479
Speaker 3: what what is that? There's five zones? It doesn't matter.

1151
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: You want to be raising your heart rate that's maxed.

1152
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 4: Out like five out of five. I don't know much,

1153
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 4: but that's one hundred percent. It's a hundred Yeah, don't

1154
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 4: get okay, yeah, okay.

1155
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 3: You want to be working hard, like you want to

1156
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 3: think about getting some time in a cardio activity where

1157
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 3: you couldn't talk, or like if somebody came to sort

1158
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 3: of in your husband's game and started chatting, you would

1159
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 3: just like not be able to chat back to him.

1160
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 3: But it can be like intervals of that. You don't

1161
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 3: have to do that for like a long period of time.

1162
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 3: Your best bet is going to be a bike. You

1163
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 3: should get some kind of very fun exercise bike situation.

1164
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 3: You can get these bikes. People, the endurance guys really

1165
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 3: like these swift bikes where you can like race other

1166
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 3: crazy people in like inside a swift race, and it

1167
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 3: like adjusts the thing so you can be like in

1168
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 3: the Tour de France with the other guys, and if

1169
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 3: you win, then you like win extra accessories for your bike,

1170
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 3: your fake swift bike in the in the game, it's

1171
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 3: a it's a video game biking app. But at any rate,

1172
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 3: you want some kind of interval based biking on like

1173
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 3: a stationary bike where you are working quite hard to

1174
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 3: the point where you couldn't talk.

1175
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 4: Can I ask a very ignorant question. It feels like

1176
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 4: there's a lot of types of indoor bikes. There's the

1177
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 4: soul cycle one that I did when everyone was doing

1178
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 4: a soul cycle and I obediently also did it. So

1179
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,439
Speaker 4: there's that one where you're like leaning forward. There's one

1180
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 4: that's also in gym's where it seems to be more

1181
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 4: of a an sort of seated upright situation. And then

1182
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,439
Speaker 4: there's the third one, which is there's a big fan

1183
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 4: in the front and your arms are part of it,

1184
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 4: which is the bike you picture when you say biking.

1185
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 3: Just any of these is fine. Just a regular bike

1186
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 3: is fine. You just need to go set the resistance

1187
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 3: hard enough that your heart rate goes up.

1188
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 5: That's all.

1189
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, what do.

1190
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: You think about swimming?

1191
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 3: M I generally do not think swimming is going to

1192
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 3: raise her heart rate enough.

1193
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: And it takes a lot more time because you have to.

1194
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 3: Like go to the gym and you have to put

1195
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 3: your swim soon on, you have to get into the water,

1196
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 3: and the gym pool is not available. The bike is

1197
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 3: like stationary. Bike is like the easiest. You tell me

1198
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 3: you have thirty minutes. You do like five minutes of

1199
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 3: warm up, three minute intervals with a one minute rest

1200
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 3: until you feel like you're going to die, and then

1201
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 3: you get off the bike.

1202
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 4: That sounds yeah, I love it. That sounds like it

1203
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 4: sounds terrible.

1204
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: That's what you want. That's what I know.

1205
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 4: I know again, though, if any tech bro can come

1206
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 4: up with a version of this where I don't actually

1207
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 4: have to work very hard and can be physically comfortable

1208
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 4: while something is doing my cardio interested.

1209
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 1: That's what the peptizer for. Thank you for being here

1210
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: else and we really appreciate it.

1211
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 4: Thank you for allowing me to be here and acquiescing

1212
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 4: when I refused to take no for an answer.

1213
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 2: You have carte blanche for any future topics.

1214
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 4: Do not say that I've talked so much in this

1215
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 4: episode because I'm so excited. It's embarrassing. But okay, fine,

1216
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 4: I'll come back every week.

1217
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 1: Great.

1218
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 3: Stick with us next week when we'll ask what's the

1219
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 3: deal with alcohol? Wellness Actually is produced in association with iHeartMedia.

1220
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tamar Abshi.

1221
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 3: Our executive producer at iHeart is Jennifer Bassett. Our theme

1222
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 3: music is by Eric Deutsch, and our content is for

1223
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 3: educational purposes only.

1224
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 2: If you like the show, help other people find us.

1225
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 2: Leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or your

1226
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,919
Speaker 2: podcatcher of choice and help let's spread the word about

1227
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 2: the show. You can follow us on Instagram at Wellness

1228
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 2: Actually pod and don't forget We want to hear from you.

1229
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 2: Head over to Wellness Actually do FM and leave us

1230
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 2: a question for our mailbag or suggest a topic for

1231
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:13,439
Speaker 2: a future show.

1232
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: We'll let the influencers have the last word.

1233
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 6: You cannot trust your pregnant brain. Last week I went

1234
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 6: to lunch I got there early. I was so proud

1235
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 6: of myself. So I usually run five to ten minutes late,

1236
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 6: but I got there ten minutes early. I wait for

1237
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 6: thirty more minutes am I getting stood up for the

1238
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 6: very first time in my life. A couple hours later,

1239
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 6: I get a text from this person and they're like,

1240
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 6: oh my gosh, we're rating next week.

1241
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 5: But yeah, I was sad.

1242
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 6: I heard my own feelings.