WEBVTT - #596 Jason Flom with Terrel Barros 0:00:00.990 --> 0:00:03.470 When we last brought you Terrell Barrows' story, there had 0:00:03.490 --> 0:00:07.080 been a major breakthrough. After spending 11 years in prison 0:00:07.100 --> 0:00:10.180 for a murder he's always maintained he didn't commit, Terrell's 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:13.500 conviction was vacated in 2023, and he was released on 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.420 bail into the waiting arms of his mother. But the 0:00:16.460 --> 0:00:20.520 state of Rhode Island appealed that decision. Now, we finally 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.410 have some very good news. In July of this year, 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.990 the Rhode Island Supreme Court affirmed the decision that overturned 0:00:27.210 --> 0:00:31.470 Terrell's convictions. At the center of the case was powerful 0:00:31.530 --> 0:00:35.150 new evidence. The cousin of Stephen Bodden, the man Terrell 0:00:35.170 --> 0:00:39.110 has always said was the actual shooter, testified that Bodden 0:00:39.150 --> 0:00:42.970 confessed to her on multiple occasions. On the night of 0:00:42.990 --> 0:00:46.750 the shooting, Bodden himself had told police, it's me, it's 0:00:46.890 --> 0:00:51.650 all me, it's all mine, end quote. The lower court 0:00:51.710 --> 0:00:55.350 bound the new witness credible and concluded that her testimony 0:00:55.670 --> 0:00:58.210 could have, and let's face it, probably would have changed 0:00:58.250 --> 0:01:02.600 the verdict. the Rhode Island Supreme Court agreed that this powerful, 0:01:02.700 --> 0:01:07.160 newly discovered evidence justified overturning Terrell's conviction, and they upheld 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.880 the ruling, granting him post-conviction relief. So the case now 0:01:10.940 --> 0:01:13.860 goes back to Superior Court, and the state has to 0:01:13.900 --> 0:01:18.300 decide whether it's going to try Terrell again. So, the 0:01:18.340 --> 0:01:21.690 fight isn't completely over. But after more than a decade 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.750 behind bars, as well as years spent fighting to prove 0:01:24.790 --> 0:01:27.670 what he has said from the very beginning— one of 0:01:27.730 --> 0:01:31.330 the biggest obstacles standing between Terrell and his freedom has 0:01:31.390 --> 0:01:35.420 finally fallen. Now, here is Terrell's story. 0:01:42.940 --> 0:01:46.360 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. Today, we're 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.779 going to be discussing the really troubling case of Terrell Barrows, 0:01:51.020 --> 0:01:54.240 who was wrongfully convicted of a shooting in which one 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.060 person was killed and another was badly injured. And with 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.030 us today, we have a student at Georgetown who's been 0:02:02.070 --> 0:02:05.170 doing incredible work investigating his case under the leadership of 0:02:05.230 --> 0:02:09.400 my friend, Professor Mark Howard. So Nirjana Hendy, welcome to 0:02:09.410 --> 0:02:09.840 the show. 0:02:10.540 --> 0:02:11.459 Thank you, Jason. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:16.000 The Georgetown class that Nurjana is a student in is 0:02:16.060 --> 0:02:19.090 taught by Mark Howard and a name that you'll recognize 0:02:19.130 --> 0:02:21.850 from being on our show more than once, Marty Tankliff. 0:02:21.990 --> 0:02:25.330 And of course, this class was directly responsible for the 0:02:25.470 --> 0:02:30.530 exoneration of Valentino Dixon. If you haven't heard his episode, 0:02:30.590 --> 0:02:31.690 please go back and listen to it. 0:02:31.710 --> 0:02:32.380 It's extraordinary. 0:02:33.750 --> 0:02:36.430 We hope to be hearing from Terrell Barrows very soon. 0:02:36.450 --> 0:02:39.580 Of course, in this COVID time that we're in, it's 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.340 very hard to get to the phones in prison, but 0:02:42.580 --> 0:02:45.820 we will be discussing his case and hopefully hearing from 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:51.500 him as the podcast progresses. So let's go back to 2012. 0:02:51.470 --> 0:02:52.850 Back in August of 2012, Terrell. 0:02:53.430 --> 0:03:00.290 Barrows and a group of friends headed out to Monet 0:03:00.389 --> 0:03:04.530 Lounge in Providence, Rhode Island. While they're in the club, 0:03:04.590 --> 0:03:08.610 there's some sort of verbal altercation between Terrell's group and 0:03:08.630 --> 0:03:11.089 a couple of members of another group, including the two 0:03:11.110 --> 0:03:14.000 that got shot. One was Rokeem Henley, who got shot 0:03:14.010 --> 0:03:16.060 in the leg and who I spoke with a couple 0:03:16.070 --> 0:03:19.300 of times over the past few months. And then Jamal Cruz, 0:03:19.340 --> 0:03:22.540 who ended up dying that night. But Terrell wasn't a 0:03:22.580 --> 0:03:25.800 part of that verbal altercation. It was Stefan Bodden who was. 0:03:26.590 --> 0:03:29.010 And so a name was called, someone's hat got tapped 0:03:29.090 --> 0:03:31.250 off their head, and then no one really stays. 0:03:31.270 --> 0:03:33.630 There's not a physical altercation at all. 0:03:34.490 --> 0:03:38.090 Later on in the night, Stefan Bodden asked Terrell, he goes, hey, 0:03:38.150 --> 0:03:40.640 let me get the tactical, get your car keys. So 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:45.020 as he's heading over, there is another car that is 0:03:45.100 --> 0:03:49.080 parked bumper to bumper with Terrell's car. And it just 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:54.309 happens to be the car of Jamal Crews, Stefan thought 0:03:54.570 --> 0:03:58.870 that Jamal and Rokeem were coming to cause problems when 0:03:58.890 --> 0:04:01.690 in reality they were just walking to their car. Stefan 0:04:01.770 --> 0:04:05.840 grabs the gun and, you know, witnesses say he told 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.320 them don't come any closer. And at this point, Terrell 0:04:09.340 --> 0:04:12.020 starts heading over to his car with his group of friends. 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.060 Terrell is about. 0:04:13.580 --> 0:04:17.469 10 to 15 feet away from Stefan Bowden and Jamal Cruz, 0:04:17.650 --> 0:04:20.210 which is where all eyewitnesses place him as well. And 0:04:20.250 --> 0:04:22.390 he's actually walking to get to the other side of 0:04:22.450 --> 0:04:25.330 his car to hop in the driver's seat because he 0:04:25.370 --> 0:04:27.110 knows that there's trouble about to happen. He doesn't want 0:04:27.130 --> 0:04:29.969 to be a part of it. He hears two gunshots. 0:04:30.170 --> 0:04:34.310 He jumps into the driver's seat and almost immediately, Stefan 0:04:34.350 --> 0:04:36.750 jumps into the passenger seat and the cops are there 0:04:36.810 --> 0:04:37.570 to arrest them. 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.920 And there's more to this, too, because when Stefan jumped 0:04:41.100 --> 0:04:44.500 into the passenger seat, he had sort of a moment 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:49.420 of self-awareness, right, where he started apologizing to Terrell for 0:04:50.020 --> 0:04:51.860 sort of involving him in this. 0:04:52.140 --> 0:04:52.560 Yeah. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.640 You know, at this point, the arresting officers are on 0:04:55.900 --> 0:05:00.020 either side and the gun is still with Stefan Baden. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.580 He is caught concealing the gun in the passenger side door. 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:08.190 And Stefan actually confesses on the scene. He said, it's me. 0:05:08.260 --> 0:05:12.150 It's all me. It's all mine. Yet they are both arrested. 0:05:12.670 --> 0:05:15.730 taken to a paddy wagon, and then there's a show-up 0:05:15.790 --> 0:05:18.390 that is done. Now, I spoke with a couple of 0:05:18.450 --> 0:05:21.550 jury members who told me this is what caused us 0:05:21.630 --> 0:05:26.469 to believe Terrell is guilty. So, in the show-ups, they 0:05:26.510 --> 0:05:29.690 bring Stefan over to Jamal, who is in critical condition 0:05:29.910 --> 0:05:34.310 on the floor, extremely intoxicated, and they say, is this 0:05:34.390 --> 0:05:38.750 the man that shot you? And Jamal looks away. Apparently, 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.679 when they bring over Terrell... Detective Matrasi says Jamal nods. 0:05:43.140 --> 0:05:46.080 That's what they say he did. It doesn't matter if 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.260 he nodded or not. He was in no position to 0:05:48.300 --> 0:05:50.979 make any identification of anyone, and we still don't know 0:05:51.060 --> 0:05:53.359 if he did. It's not like he stuck his finger 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:55.600 out and went, yeah, that's the guy who shot me, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.250 and he's out, right? That's not what happened. 0:05:58.460 --> 0:06:01.900 They actually did not even do a show-up identification with 0:06:01.940 --> 0:06:05.070 the other guy, Rokeem Henley, who was shot, and he 0:06:05.110 --> 0:06:06.630 was not in critical condition. 0:06:06.750 --> 0:06:08.990 They also didn't bother to swab the hands of either 0:06:09.029 --> 0:06:13.270 Terrell or Stefan, right? That would be so critical to 0:06:13.450 --> 0:06:17.989 figuring out who did or did not commit this horrible crime. 0:06:18.130 --> 0:06:20.970 And Jason, I think it was clear to arresting officers. 0:06:21.010 --> 0:06:23.370 This had to have been Stefan. It was in his hand. 0:06:23.930 --> 0:06:27.990 He confesses. That's probably why they didn't even swab their hands. 0:06:28.510 --> 0:06:31.919 And then, you know, somehow the story gets twisted. And 0:06:32.190 --> 0:06:34.380 it's now in Terrell because of what they call a 0:06:34.500 --> 0:06:38.400 dying declaration. Terrell always says, he goes, there were two 0:06:38.460 --> 0:06:39.659 lives lost that night. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:40.520 Mine. 0:06:41.050 --> 0:06:44.589 And Jamal Cruz. And I feel bad because Jamal Cruz 0:06:44.810 --> 0:06:46.030 didn't get justice. 0:06:46.050 --> 0:06:53.770 This is a free call from an inmate at Maximum 0:06:53.830 --> 0:06:58.099 Security Facility. Thank you for using Securus. You may start 0:06:58.120 --> 0:06:59.099 the conversation now. 0:07:00.740 --> 0:07:01.120 Hello. 0:07:01.860 --> 0:07:02.659 Hey, Terrell. 0:07:04.339 --> 0:07:06.599 Thanks for calling in. I know we have limited time, 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.020 so let's get right to it. Can you take us 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:12.690 back to the awful night of this crime and give 0:07:12.750 --> 0:07:16.090 us your perspective having lived through this nightmare yourself? 0:07:16.510 --> 0:07:19.970 Well, back at that night, the two dudes approached, and 0:07:19.990 --> 0:07:23.290 they were talking to Stephan about something. The problem wasn't 0:07:23.310 --> 0:07:26.150 with me. So we went outside in front of the club. 0:07:26.570 --> 0:07:29.050 Stephan wanted my keys to go get his cigarettes. So 0:07:29.070 --> 0:07:31.530 when we go to the car, the two dudes are approaching. 0:07:31.550 --> 0:07:34.170 So I see them two dudes. I'm like, oh, man, 0:07:34.190 --> 0:07:36.330 here we go. So I turned around to go to 0:07:36.350 --> 0:07:38.580 the driver's side of the car. Then I hear shots. 0:07:39.310 --> 0:07:41.430 So I just run into my car. As soon as 0:07:41.450 --> 0:07:44.310 I run into my car, the cop is like, honest. 0:07:44.770 --> 0:07:46.210 He had the gun on me. You know, put your 0:07:46.230 --> 0:07:47.850 hands on the steering wheel. So I put my hands 0:07:47.890 --> 0:07:49.880 on the steering wheel, and he keeps on saying it. 0:07:50.210 --> 0:07:53.230 But he's talking to Stefan. So he puts his hands 0:07:53.290 --> 0:07:55.250 on the steering wheel, and he's like, yo, I'm sorry, 0:07:55.290 --> 0:07:57.570 I'm sorry, I love you, I love you. The police 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.640 officer's talking, and he's like, oh, yo, the passenger's got 0:08:00.660 --> 0:08:03.380 the gun. So as soon as he opens up the door... 0:08:04.070 --> 0:08:06.559 Stefan says, it's me, it's all me, it's all mine. 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.940 He's like, it's you? He's like, yeah, it's me. So 0:08:10.100 --> 0:08:11.860 when he took him out, he's already handcuffed him. The 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.340 other cop that had the gun on us, he comes, 0:08:14.380 --> 0:08:16.520 he slaps the cuffs on the wrist, my wrist, and 0:08:16.580 --> 0:08:19.140 slams me on the floor. Brings me back to the 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.970 paddy wagon. There was a guy that was shot. I 0:08:21.970 --> 0:08:24.710 didn't know no one was shot. I could see blood. 0:08:25.010 --> 0:08:27.490 This dude was hurt. So this dude was shot in 0:08:27.510 --> 0:08:29.990 the chest. And this dude was like doing a show 0:08:30.070 --> 0:08:32.710 up with this guy shot in the chest. Asking him, 0:08:32.900 --> 0:08:35.130 this him, this him, this him. The guy just looked 0:08:35.190 --> 0:08:37.830 at me and put his head down. He didn't say nothing. 0:08:37.890 --> 0:08:40.270 He didn't do nothing. He didn't say nothing. He just 0:08:40.290 --> 0:08:42.950 put his head down. So then they had put me 0:08:42.970 --> 0:08:45.430 back in the paddy wagon. They bring me back to 0:08:45.450 --> 0:08:47.890 the station. When they bring me back to the station, 0:08:47.929 --> 0:08:50.060 you know, they do the mugshot, the fingerprints, whatever. They 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.340 brought me to a room with two detectives. I asked 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:56.620 for my lawyer. Detective Angelo Avant was the lead detective. 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:58.559 He was the one that questioned me the first time 0:08:58.580 --> 0:09:00.490 and the first night. So he's like, oh, you know, 0:09:00.510 --> 0:09:02.229 he wants a cigarette. You want a cigarette? I'm like, no. 0:09:02.570 --> 0:09:04.750 He's like, you want water? I'm like, no. And he 0:09:04.790 --> 0:09:06.829 kept on trying to talk to me. And I'm like, 0:09:07.090 --> 0:09:08.530 I want my lawyer. I want my lawyer. I want 0:09:08.550 --> 0:09:12.450 my lawyer. So he leaves the room, and he comes back, 0:09:12.850 --> 0:09:16.229 and he brings back the holding cell. So one of 0:09:16.250 --> 0:09:18.450 the times, I'm like, yo, I'm banging on the door. 0:09:18.470 --> 0:09:19.829 A cop comes. He's like, oh, what you banging on 0:09:19.850 --> 0:09:21.970 the door? I'm like, I want my phone call. He's like, 0:09:22.190 --> 0:09:24.990 phone call? I'm like, yeah. He's like, are you getting 0:09:25.030 --> 0:09:26.890 plenty of phone calls? We are going. I'm like, where 0:09:26.910 --> 0:09:30.960 am I going? He's like, we're going to jail. Huh, 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.880 what the hell? They bring me in the bus. They 0:09:33.900 --> 0:09:37.280 transport me there. And I find out Monday, the arraignment, 0:09:37.340 --> 0:09:39.820 that I'm getting charged with murder. I go up into 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.839 the courtroom. I had to split up. Stephan was on 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:44.100 the left side, I was on the right side. So 0:09:44.140 --> 0:09:47.160 they reached Stephan in his charges. Stephan Bolton possessed him 0:09:47.179 --> 0:09:50.090 with a firearm. And that was that. It was a 0:09:50.110 --> 0:09:54.290 Terrell Barrows first-degree murder. I'm like, they charging me with murder? 0:09:55.510 --> 0:09:57.530 I promise you on everything I love, I did not 0:09:57.570 --> 0:09:52.190 do it. He had I don't understand it either because 0:09:52.309 --> 0:09:55.580 it should have been over right then and there. The 0:09:55.620 --> 0:09:56.179 caller has hung up. 0:10:24.929 --> 0:10:27.770 You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this 0:10:27.850 --> 0:10:30.490 and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early 0:10:30.670 --> 0:10:33.820 and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:44.600 on Apple Podcasts. I have never and may never again 0:10:44.780 --> 0:10:49.750 hear of a case in which the actual shooter skates 0:10:49.870 --> 0:10:55.230 on the charges after confessing on the scene, right? I mean, 0:10:55.470 --> 0:10:57.819 at that point, this should be a very short podcast. 0:10:57.860 --> 0:10:59.360 That should be the end of it. I mean, this 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:03.820 would be funny, except it's so freaking serious, right? And 0:11:04.500 --> 0:11:06.760 this is the system that we all rely on day 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:08.920 in and day out. I'd like to believe that we 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.960 have people who are doing the job that they're paid 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.870 to do. In this case, it's absolutely true. It failed society. 0:11:16.260 --> 0:11:20.510 It failed the victim. It failed Terrell. And that's what 0:11:20.550 --> 0:11:22.530 we're here to talk about. And then it gets weirder 0:11:22.550 --> 0:11:25.860 because then you start with the the eyewitness. The only 0:11:26.020 --> 0:11:30.210 eyewitness is a guy named Gregory Zorabedian. And he initially 0:11:30.250 --> 0:11:32.410 claims he didn't see the shooting and then changed his 0:11:32.450 --> 0:11:35.550 testimony six days before the trial to say he saw 0:11:35.590 --> 0:11:38.650 Terrell do it. We have a document signed by the 0:11:38.670 --> 0:11:41.510 assistant attorney general promising not to charge him for perjury 0:11:41.550 --> 0:11:44.370 should he alter his testimony. That's maybe just a little 0:11:44.390 --> 0:11:47.099 bit of a red flag there. Now, get this, okay? 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.270 This Gregory Zorabedian guy had Well, let's just call it 0:11:51.309 --> 0:11:53.510 an extensive criminal history, but that might not even be 0:11:53.550 --> 0:11:57.430 doing it justice. So his rap sheet went back 30 years. 0:11:58.110 --> 0:12:02.630 It included convictions, not arrests, convictions for living off the 0:12:02.730 --> 0:12:11.010 earnings of a prostitute, grand larceny, DUI causing death, cocaine possession, burglary, theft, escape. 0:12:11.410 --> 0:12:14.700 And that's just the beginning. So do we think that 0:12:14.820 --> 0:12:17.140 after doing all these other things he's done, he might 0:12:17.179 --> 0:12:20.309 be willing to lie in exchange for a deal? I 0:12:20.330 --> 0:12:22.810 would say that's a pretty good likelihood. And then let's 0:12:22.830 --> 0:12:25.520 get to Detective Charles Matrasio. Do you want to take 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:26.560 that one, Eugena? 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.679 He was actually the one who claims that he saw 0:12:30.020 --> 0:12:34.689 Jamal Cruz nod. When they brought over Terrell, I asked Terrell, 0:12:34.710 --> 0:12:36.230 I said, yo, were you watching Jamal? 0:12:36.250 --> 0:12:37.690 He said, yeah, I was watching him. I said, did 0:12:37.710 --> 0:12:38.010 he not? 0:12:38.050 --> 0:12:39.850 He said, no, he didn't do anything. So whether he 0:12:39.870 --> 0:12:42.630 did or did not is another story. But again, Jamal 0:12:42.670 --> 0:12:45.349 Cruz was under the influence of alcohol. He had a 0:12:45.370 --> 0:12:48.810 BAC of 0.162, which seems like a lot until we 0:12:48.830 --> 0:12:52.120 look at Rakeem, who had an actually higher BAC as well. 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.250 And then both Stefan and Terrell were wearing white t-shirts 0:12:56.300 --> 0:12:59.770 and darker pants. Out of the group that Terrell was in, 0:12:59.870 --> 0:13:02.949 he was not the only one with two long black braids. 0:13:03.270 --> 0:13:04.910 He just wasn't. It was a style. 0:13:05.350 --> 0:13:07.010 If you look at the pictures of his friend group, 0:13:07.270 --> 0:13:09.330 he's not the only one with two long black braids. 0:13:09.910 --> 0:13:10.250 And so. 0:13:10.910 --> 0:13:14.970 Out of a group of people wearing white shirts, dark pants, 0:13:15.250 --> 0:13:17.910 two long black braids, you're dying on the floor. And 0:13:17.950 --> 0:13:21.199 Detective Matrasi says, yeah, he nodded when we brought over Terrell. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:22.770 I mean, how unreal could that be? 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:27.140 And so now we're moving into GSR testing. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.360 GSR stands for gunshot residue. 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.580 Yep. And there are three particles of gunshot residue that 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:33.460 they test for. 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:35.439 When they're looking at clothing. 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:40.740 So when Stefan and Terrell were initially arrested, Stefan was 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.660 pulled out of the car and he was slammed against 0:13:43.740 --> 0:13:47.400 the side of the car. When Terrell was arrested, he 0:13:47.420 --> 0:13:49.440 was pulled out of the car and slammed to the ground. 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:52.400 So he actually had some dirt on his white shirt 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.540 in a specific area. What they initially tested was the 0:13:55.620 --> 0:14:00.929 chest area of both Terrell and and of Stefan, because 0:14:00.990 --> 0:14:04.030 the theory is if someone is a shooter and they 0:14:04.110 --> 0:14:07.809 hold the gun straight ahead, that the gunshot residue will 0:14:07.870 --> 0:14:10.100 recoil and hit them in the chest area. 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:12.380 So they talk about Stefan, they go, well, we found 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:13.200 lead on Stefan. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.140 And they say, well, you also found lead on Terrell. 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:20.220 So Terrell whispers to his attorney, ask if they happened 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.920 to find the lead where my shirt was dirty. 0:14:23.220 --> 0:14:23.900 They said, yes. 0:14:24.090 --> 0:14:25.990 So it makes sense that that's the only place on 0:14:26.030 --> 0:14:29.240 his clothing where they found lead. So this is all 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.520 the information they had in terms of GSR at trial, 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:36.350 but there is more GSR evidence to come, which is 0:14:36.490 --> 0:14:39.150 part of what we are motioning for with the new 0:14:39.370 --> 0:14:40.190 hearing coming up. 0:14:40.790 --> 0:14:44.160 Well, we're on initials, right? We'll go from GSR to DNA. 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.980 And the DNA report excluded Terrell from having held the gun. 0:14:48.420 --> 0:14:52.180 So let's touch for a second on the DNA expert 0:14:52.220 --> 0:14:56.830 for the state, who we know was, well, I mean, most, unfortunately, 0:14:56.900 --> 0:14:59.650 quote unquote, experts are pro-prosecution. In fact, the whole system 0:14:59.690 --> 0:15:04.590 is pro-prosecution. Over 80% of judges are former prosecutors. So 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.020 Throughout the process, there's a tilt towards prosecution, and the 0:15:09.140 --> 0:15:12.430 experts that you're seeing may not be objective at all. 0:15:12.930 --> 0:15:14.810 And this is one of those cases where I think 0:15:14.850 --> 0:15:18.190 that there's a strong argument to that effect. So, Nurjana, 0:15:18.210 --> 0:15:19.080 can you talk about that? 0:15:19.510 --> 0:15:24.570 Yeah, Cara Lupino gave extremely pro-prosecution testimony. And the way 0:15:24.590 --> 0:15:27.590 that she had presented it, the attorney would ask a question, 0:15:27.770 --> 0:15:30.570 the prosecutor. She would respond and say, yes, and Terrell 0:15:30.590 --> 0:15:32.730 was included. And then you all of a sudden get 0:15:32.770 --> 0:15:35.930 to the very, very, very end. And they really quickly 0:15:35.990 --> 0:15:38.970 sneak in a couple of lines of Terrell was excluded 0:15:38.990 --> 0:15:43.150 and Stefan Bodden's DNA could not be excluded. So when 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.620 I'm talking to the juror, she goes, I don't even 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.800 really remember him being excluded. 0:15:49.300 --> 0:15:51.860 It was so confusing. There were a lot of numbers 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:52.500 thrown out. 0:15:52.620 --> 0:15:55.440 Terrell seemed to be included in almost every mixture that 0:15:55.460 --> 0:15:59.000 they're talking about. It's absolutely insane. And if I was 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.250 in the jury, I would have thought the same thing. 0:16:01.450 --> 0:16:05.230 The state's witness essentially muddied the waters of what was 0:16:05.270 --> 0:16:10.070 a pretty cut-and-dried DNA report that excluded Terrell from having 0:16:10.710 --> 0:16:14.990 ever held the gun. But then there's Rokeem Henley, the 0:16:15.070 --> 0:16:18.290 other guy who got shot that night. His testimony... along 0:16:18.310 --> 0:16:20.770 with the ballistic evidence known at the time of trial, 0:16:21.230 --> 0:16:25.230 make it an actual impossibility that Terrell could have been 0:16:25.250 --> 0:16:25.790 the shooter. 0:16:26.170 --> 0:16:29.360 He does testify, and when I asked him the same 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.560 question when I met with him, he said the only 0:16:32.620 --> 0:16:36.760 person standing close to Jamal Cruz was Stephen Bodden. So 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:41.950 I said, here's the discrepancy. Did you see who shot you? 0:16:42.230 --> 0:16:47.330 He said no. I said, okay, well, ballistic evidence. 0:16:47.770 --> 0:16:52.480 proves that the shot was made from near contact to 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.950 18 inches away. And you are telling me that the 0:16:56.210 --> 0:16:59.810 only person standing near contact to 18 inches away from 0:16:59.870 --> 0:17:03.180 Jamal Cruz was Stefan Bodden. He said yes, but I 0:17:03.260 --> 0:17:05.820 didn't see him shoot the gun. It's kind of a 0:17:05.859 --> 0:17:10.080 confusing testimony. You don't see Stefan do it, but you 0:17:10.220 --> 0:17:13.860 also claim you did not see Terrell outside. You don't 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.720 know who Terrell is. The only time he saw Terrell 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:20.600 was at trial. So if Rokeem had never seen Terrell 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.340 and the shot was made from near contact to 18 0:17:23.340 --> 0:17:26.460 inches away, it is impossible that Terrell was the shooter. 0:17:27.590 --> 0:17:31.889 Nevertheless, the incentivized witness, the muddy DNA report, and of course, 0:17:31.950 --> 0:17:35.690 the testimony of Detective Matrasia were too much to overcome. 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.820 And Terrell was sentenced to two life sentences plus 30 years. 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:47.730 This is a free call from Terrell, an inmate at 0:17:48.010 --> 0:17:52.470 Maximum Security Facility. Thank you for using Securus. You may 0:17:52.490 --> 0:17:53.670 start the conversation now. 0:17:56.420 --> 0:17:56.770 Hello? 0:17:57.010 --> 0:17:57.330 Okay. 0:17:57.970 --> 0:18:01.669 The investigators in your case, Terrell, it was Detective Matrascia 0:18:01.869 --> 0:18:03.470 and Detective Angelo, right? 0:18:03.710 --> 0:18:08.970 Yeah. Detective Angelo was the leader of the case. Matrascia 0:18:09.010 --> 0:18:12.109 was the one that lied about Jamal saying it was 0:18:12.130 --> 0:18:14.310 me at the show up. So what I was told 0:18:14.350 --> 0:18:16.210 was this from a lot of lawyers, and they all 0:18:16.250 --> 0:18:19.969 gave me the same answer. Y'all are in this situation. 0:18:20.410 --> 0:18:23.369 They pin this on you. It's because you asked for 0:18:23.410 --> 0:18:25.930 your lawyer. I asked for my lawyer. That's my right. 0:18:26.410 --> 0:18:28.880 They said, yeah, but you didn't tell them what they 0:18:28.940 --> 0:18:32.500 wanted to hear, and they threw it on you. Jamal 0:18:32.540 --> 0:18:35.140 ain't here. So you can put any words in that 0:18:35.180 --> 0:18:38.460 man's mouth you want because you can't put him on 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.580 the stand and cross-examine him. So what the cops do, 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.040 they go on the stand and they think, no, they 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.439 know they know that the jury look at them as superheroes. 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:50.639 The jury don't think that the cops are going to 0:18:50.660 --> 0:18:54.580 go on the stand and lie. And that's what they did. 0:18:55.190 --> 0:18:58.720 And Jamal ain't here. Now, this was before this even 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:03.379 going on with George Floyd. This was in like 2012, 2013. 0:19:03.380 --> 0:19:07.220 So around that time, that climate was like, oh, no, 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:08.880 the police ain't going to lie on this kid. 0:19:09.460 --> 0:19:15.770 Terrell, you've gone through this insane nightmare. Everything that could 0:19:15.810 --> 0:19:18.109 go wrong has gone wrong so far. But then comes 0:19:18.130 --> 0:19:20.410 the moment where the jury goes out and they come 0:19:20.450 --> 0:19:22.679 back in. Did you think that they were going to 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.060 find you innocent? Tell us about that moment. 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.480 They bring me down to the elevator to the courtroom. 0:19:27.500 --> 0:19:31.200 And you can just feel, like, the tension in the courtroom. 0:19:31.820 --> 0:19:36.240 And the jury come in. Their faces are funny. They 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.350 said I was guilty. And then everybody, just my family, 0:19:40.430 --> 0:19:43.070 everybody was just like, no, he's innocent. Like, they just 0:19:43.109 --> 0:19:47.310 went crazy. I'm just sitting there, like, in shock. I'm 0:19:47.350 --> 0:19:49.550 in shock. Like, everybody's standing up. I'm the only one 0:19:49.609 --> 0:19:52.420 sitting down. And what got me out of the trance 0:19:52.940 --> 0:19:59.140 is I seen Detective Angelo Pavone laughing. So I said, yo, 0:20:00.030 --> 0:20:02.890 what you think this is, funny? He just looked at me. 0:20:03.590 --> 0:20:06.410 And I looked at Jamal's family. And I turned around 0:20:06.430 --> 0:20:08.830 to him. I said, I didn't do this to your son. 0:20:09.630 --> 0:20:11.730 I promise you, I promise you, I did not do 0:20:11.770 --> 0:20:13.810 this to your son. I did not do this. They 0:20:13.830 --> 0:20:16.250 didn't get justice for your son. They're lying to you. 0:20:16.430 --> 0:20:18.740 And they're just looking at me, like, in a shock. 0:20:20.060 --> 0:20:23.980 Everyone's going crazy. So during that commotion, I seen the prosecutor, like, 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.160 hug the brother, like they were in the Super Bowl, 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.620 smacking his back, like, yeah, yeah, we got him. And 0:20:28.940 --> 0:20:31.910 I'm just looking at him like, you're lying to this family. Like, 0:20:31.930 --> 0:20:34.149 this is a big lie. Like, you just found an 0:20:34.230 --> 0:20:38.230 innocent kid guilty for a crime you didn't do. They 0:20:38.250 --> 0:20:40.630 just wanted the conviction. I know they know I didn't 0:20:40.650 --> 0:20:44.100 do it because the prosecutor, you know, when you see 0:20:44.140 --> 0:20:47.680 bogus charges, but you still go forward with it because 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.680 you want a conviction. They don't care if you're innocent. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.980 Yeah, they're thinking about their future, their aspirations, the way 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.100 they can be successful. They know that's by having a 0:20:59.220 --> 0:21:01.659 good conviction rate by and large, but it's like it's 0:21:01.700 --> 0:21:05.610 some sort of sick scoreboard. And There are decent prosecutors 0:21:05.650 --> 0:21:07.389 out there. There are some really good ones, too. But 0:21:07.430 --> 0:21:11.700 the ones that are willing to ignore evidence of innocence 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.300 and prosecute clearly bogus cases like yours just to get 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.840 another notch on their belt, just to move up the ladder, 0:21:18.740 --> 0:21:22.100 they're a disgrace. And they're actually a menace to public safety. 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.820 They use our backs as a stepping stone to the top. 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:29.700 They ruin our family to make their family better. Yeah, 0:21:29.740 --> 0:21:31.050 they just look at it as a money sign. 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:45.250 And as if. 0:21:45.210 --> 0:21:49.750 This case couldn't get worse or weirder, Stefan Baden put 0:21:49.950 --> 0:21:53.340 out a song. I guess he was trying to rid 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.240 himself of the guilt of skating on the murder rap. 0:21:57.060 --> 0:22:00.330