WEBVTT - What AI Is Already Doing to the Legal Industry 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:10.600 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.920 Hello and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.400 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.760 Tracy, I was at my cousin's wedding this weekend, and 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.400 I have a lot of lawyers in my family, and 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:33.800 every time I know that, yeah, yeah, and my extended 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:37.320 family a lot of lawyers in there, and I'm always 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.640 asking them, like what they do and stuff. Within like 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.200 five seconds of any conversation, I'm like, tell me about 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.280 trials and techniques like swathe the jury, etc. The stuff 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.360 I see on TV. I am aware though that that 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.840 is actually not that big of a part of many 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:52.040 lawyers like day to day. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.520 Well, I have a lawyer in my family too, an 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:59.960 ex lawyer, my husband, who did big law, big corporate law, 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.319 absolutely hated it and got out of it luckily. And 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.680 so I have a feeling in this particular episode, I'm 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:10.759 just going to ask a lot of work life balance 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.000 questions based on my own experience of my husband's experience. Yeah, 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.920 but it is a huge industry, and it's one of 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:22.000 those industries that I think all financial journalism actually doesn't 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.640 do a good job of covering along with accounting. So 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:27.119 we should talk about it. 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.559 We definitely should talk about it. We should talk about 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:34.080 it way more than we do. Within the AI conversation, specifically, 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.880 you hear a lot about the prospects of this being 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.880 either like a force multiplier or a labor reducer, because 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.399 my understanding is that a lot of like, especially like 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:47.840 junior lawyers, they're up all night. What are they like 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.320 looking for misplaced commas because those could be a big 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.800 deal in contracts, right, and so in theory, and again, Tracy, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.680 I'm sure you know way more about this than I do. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.200 But in theory that sort of seems like something a 0:01:58.280 --> 0:01:59.760 I might be good at, Like, oh no, if the 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.279 is not here and it's there, then that totally changes 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:03.840 the definition of this clause or whatever. 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.760 There's a famous case involving a commo that did exactly that. 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.520 So many points to make here. First of all, I 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.080 am vastly in favor of anything that makes corporate lawyers 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:18.920 lives slightly more efficient and happier, so AI could be 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.919 useful here. But I also wonder, you know, the lawyer profession, 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.080 they have things like templates and standard forms and stuff 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.480 like that. So I also wonder how much of an 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.600 improvement AI will be here. So I'm excited to talk 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:31.960 about it. 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:34.680 You know that, Tracy, when they get the AI tools 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:36.519 really in place, they're just going to give them more work. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:38.360 Yeah, well that's what I suspect. 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:39.280 Yeah, yeah, no, one's. 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:41.160 Actually by the way, I have a lot of stories 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.239 of like partners calling from their fishing boats on the 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.960 weekend demanding that junior lawyers go into the office and 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.600 like fix a comma and things like that. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.080 All Right, Well, I'm really excited to say we do 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.440 have the perfect get. Someone that I've known for a 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.400 very long time, someone who just knows about a lot 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.320 of stuff. Someone who is lawyer. We're going to be 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.839 speaking with Joel Worthheimer. He's currently at Worthheimer Fleet LLP 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.000 of civil rights firm here in New York City. He's 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.440 previously at the White House. He's done big law in 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.080 the past. He knows a lot about a lot of stuff. 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.240 He knows a lot about poker, he knows a lot 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.239 about AI. Someone I think we had just talked to 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.320 about anything. He knows a lot about elections. He just 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.880 sort of knows everything. Joel, Thank you so much for 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:26.919 coming on Odd Laws thrilled to have you here. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:27.840 Thank you for having me. 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.040 Why do you real? Quickly tell us, like who you are, 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:32.480 what do you do? Why are we talking to you. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.040 I run my own civil rights law firm. I just 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:40.560 partnered up, and we sue the government mostly for violations 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.800 of civil rights. Sometimes that's false arrests or wrongful convictions. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:49.000 Sometimes that's wrongful removals of kids and let's say child 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.560 services for a shaken baby that was a false accusation, 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.560 that sort of thing, And we try to get people 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:58.200 compensation for the wrongs of their constitutional rights. That's about 0:03:58.320 --> 0:03:59.400 eighty percent of what we do. 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.680 Question. Are civil slash criminal lawyers? Are they happier than 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:04.640 corporate lawyers? 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.720 I would say on average, sure, but the distribution is 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.760 probably pretty wide for each you know. Look, I do 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.480 think on the nice thing on the plaintiff side, and 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.160 it's like I'm my own boss. I get to, you know, 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.680 determine how much I work, and each extra case it's 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.000 just more money or less money if I if I 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.560 decide not to take it, and so I can sort 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.880 of set my own work life balance when I do that, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.240 you know, and it's it's constantly a decision of sort 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.280 of what's the expected value of a case and is 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:34.720 it worth it to me in terms of the hours 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:35.400 I have to put in. 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.400 So let's talk about when you were at a big 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.239 law and you know, I joked that you know people 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.440 they're up at one am and they're looking at commas. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.320 I know that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but no, 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:46.839 it's not, and it really isn't. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:47.760 Yeah, I guess it's not. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.599 And I know that lawyers are really obsessed with billbile 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.880 hours and I think they even like measure things in 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.120 ten minute increments, like so six minutes, six minute increments. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.960 If you're a junior associated or enter a law firm, whatever, 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.440 what is the modal use of your time? What are 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.080 you mostly doing when you're clocking those six minute increments? 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:06.400 Right? 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.919 So it's gonna I can only really speak to litigation 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.279 because of corporate you're I think we're just reviewing contracts 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:17.200 and deal points constantly. For litigator, A lot of your 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.240 your time is in discovery, and that's true small law, 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:25.080 big law, but you are reviewing documents, uh, synthesizing what 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.719 they say. Maybe you're trying to do a privileged check 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.800 and say, okay, this document we can't turn over. You know, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.640 that's changed some actually with machine learning, the predictive coding 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.719 has shrunk the amount of time that you know, junior 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.600 associates are spent doing that legal research, fights with opposing counsel. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.599 You need to give us these documents you're saying they're privileged, 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.880 they're not privileged, that sort of thing. And then there's 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:53.560 the smaller section on taking depositions, you know, briefing things 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.160 to court. So that's very broad overview of those six 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:01.279 minute increments, and yes, editing and reviewing, looking for hanging commas, 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.440 you know, hanging headers. That was always the ban of 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:07.440 my existence, was forgetting that there was a hanging header. 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:09.479 Yeah, and getting ye all that for it. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:11.920 That sounds bad, you know, the economics of a big 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.479 law firm. It feels like this very big pyramid structure, 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.760 which I think is replicated in many industries around the world, 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.320 probably in finance to some extent, and then I think 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.640 even academia to some extent. But talk to us a 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.400 little bit about like how that value accruise to the 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.520 entire firm and the partners and the distribution of the 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:35.320 fees that the clients are paying. 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.840 Right, so you have what they call leverage in a 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.359 law firm, So you have equity partners. Some firms have 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.159 equity partners and income partners who don't actually own a 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.479 chair of the firm, but the partners are trying to 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.360 get leverage on the associates. So one partner to say 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.880 four associate ratio, all of the big law firms basically 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.400 pay the exact same amount to their associates. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:06:59.920 This is called the Cravat scale. 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.840 You can look it up and it'll say a third 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.640 year associate makes two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:07.720 gets this bonus each year. 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:09.600 Let's just say for. 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.840 The average associate bills seven hundred dollars an hour and 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.440 is expected to bill about two thousand hours a year. 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.960 So they're generating one point four million for the firm 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.880 in revenue in terms of build out, and they're getting 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:31.000 paid i'd say with taxes and everything, five hundred thousand. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.120 So the partners are making nine hundred thousand dollars for 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.880 every extra associate. So if you have a four to 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:41.120 one leverage, nine hundred thousand profits per partner three point 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.440 six million. And that's how they're trying to think of it, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.560 and the big partners, the rain makers are the ones 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.760 who can generate enough work to support those associates. And 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.840 if you can't support those associates, your leverage goes down, 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:54.800 your profits go down. 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:56.520 You might have to let people off that sort of thing. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.200 It's nice to be a partner at big law. But 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.720 on that note, so my understanding, at least in corporate 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:06.000 law is that it is harder to make partner nowadays 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.120 than it used to be. And this is part of 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.840 the reason why it's a miserable experience, because it used 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:13.559 to be in the past. You know, you work really 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.280 really hard, basically give up your life for like two 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.880 decades or whatever, and then you get rewarded with a 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.600 huge salary and you don't have to do as much 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.720 of the grunt work. Your job is basically sourcing deals 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.280 and making the intros and stuff like that. Do you 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.840 get that impression as well on your side? 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.480 I definitely see from the outside that it seems harder 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.800 to make partner. I think that's led to people more 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.319 people leaving earlier to do their own firms. I think 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.439 it's easier than ever to start. 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:42.319 Your own firm. 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:43.319 And why is that. 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.400 I mean, for one, I mean for me, for example, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.880 I didn't need an office when I started. I started 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:50.800 in January of twenty twenty one. I had a desk 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.480 at a you know, at another law firm that collected mail. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.280 I think the number of services are just easier to access, 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.600 even things like you know now if you really wanted to, 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.240 like cut, you could start with a cheaper legal research 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:08.040 service than West Law. Things like that, I think, and 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.079 you've seen it in the in the business creation numbers. 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.320 I think you see a lot of professional services, you know, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.040 splitting off from firms. But I definitely think it's harder 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:16.720 to make partner. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:17.720 They have had that. 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.079 They've added this income partner level, so you make partner, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.080 but you're not an equity member of the firm. I 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.920 think consolation prize, that's right, and you get to shop 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:27.360 the title. 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:28.960 I think it's the other reason. You know. 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:30.920 So let's say you want to go in house somewhere. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:32.960 Now you're a partner at this firm and you can 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.040 say you're a partner at the firm even if you 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:36.360 haven't bought in. 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.439 But I think that structure has been around longer. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.040 Honestly, it feels like the same thing it's in academy 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.400 it's harder to get ten here now, it's just the 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:44.640 latter's getting pulled up. 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.040 I guess in the sort of. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:55.480 Industry, would anyone go into a big law firm if 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.720 they knew in advance that they wouldn't make partner? Like 0:09:57.760 --> 0:09:59.800 there's some like the angel of the future comes to 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.280 them in a dream and says, you know what, you're 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.319 not going to make partner? Would that still be worthwhile? 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.240 Or is the prospect even if it's declining of making 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.559 partner like? Is that crucial towards that decision? If you 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:14.080 knew in advance you weren't going to make it? Would 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:15.079 anyone make that decision? 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.440 So they do have staff attorneys at big law firms 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.520 that are people who are not on partner track. 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.480 Okay, and those are fine careers. 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.040 And they're fine careers I think people you know, but 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.040 they also have less expectation of how much they're going 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:30.040 to work. 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.320 You typically wouldn't do it. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.560 And the reason they have this up or out sort 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.480 of system at the big law firms is because the 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.559 prospect of being partner drives you to sell you twenty 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.679 twenty five hundred hours, how many it is you're showing. 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.320 How well the light at the end of the tunnel, right. 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:46.600 That's right? 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.920 So you know, I think, Look, the training is really good, 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.680 the cases are really interesting, Like I actually quite enjoyed 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.640 some of it, But that pressure to bill and work is. 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:00.840 You probably wouldn't I want that. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.040 When you say training, like, you know, I don't, like 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:06.720 what's the deal? Like in law school you don't even 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:08.440 learn about any of the things you actually do as 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:08.880 a lawyer. 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:12.280 You certainly learn, you know how to think about the law, 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.000 but you're not learning in the city and you have 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:15.440 a leader. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:16.200 Because I think this is. 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:20.079 Actually important for the AI component of like, Okay, what 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:21.920 is how do you actually learn to be a lawyer 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.679 if you don't really do it in law school? And 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.920 then you know AI is going to take over more 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.040 and more of these functions like the prospect where do 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:30.400 you learn? 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:30.640 Right? 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.440 So what is So here's an example. You don't learn 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:37.559 how to have a dispute about discovery in law school. Okay, 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.280 you know I sent out discovery demands you owe me documents. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.679 Right under in the American system of law, somebody you get, 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.440 you end up in a lawsuit, and each side is 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.880 obligated to exchange documents with each other. And you you 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.400 send out demands and you ask for a certain category 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.200 of documents and they come back and say we're not 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.960 going to give them to that request was overly burdensome 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.600 or they're not really or they say they lost them, 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.240 or they say they lost them, and you have to 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.760 have a fight about getting the documents. What keywords did 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.960 you search, who did you collect documents from? All of 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.880 those sorts of things, and how to have that dispute, 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.599 how to make the request so you don't get the 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.400 denial those sorts of things, and what the writing looks 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.600 like and feels like you just don't get. In law school, 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.319 you just the and even writing a brief, and what's 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.880 a persuasive brief? The edits those sorts of things. You 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.160 learn how to do legal writing, but it's just you 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.679 can't do it until you're doing it. 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:37.760 Got it okay? 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.760 So on that note, I mean, AI seems possibly most 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:46.400 at home replicating the work done by say a mildly competent, 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:51.880 maybe not too tired, junior associate. And historically you do 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.720 that work for many years and you build foundational skills 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.640 of being a lawyer, like attention to detail and issue 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.679 spot and I guess, risk triage, and that sort of thing. 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.960 If those tasks, those formational tasks are now outsourced to AI, 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.120 what do you see as the impact on junior lawyers. 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:13.560 It's a great question. I think it's going to be 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.760 hard for junior lawyers at big law firms to get 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.600 their sort of that training. On the other hand, it 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:26.240 may just be that they are doing more work and 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.679 so on the same things, but more efficiently. Maybe they're 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.480 now going to have more fights about documents and less 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.439 time spending reviewing the documents. Maybe they can increase the 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.280 volume of things they demand, that sort of thing. I 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:47.160 certainly think that the leverage model and the build our 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.120 model is going to run into some difficulty. It'll also 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.040 make their lives easier, just in terms of you know, 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:55.240 as an example, you. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:56.720 Get discovery requests. 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.800 I talk about discovery a lot because it's truly like 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.960 a lot of the work of being a lawyer. But 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.199 they come, you know, the other side will send you 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.400 a PDF with a bunch of demands, and then you've 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.480 got to respond to the demands, and even just the 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.760 moment where you have to convert the PDF into a 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.920 word document and start editing the work word document it's 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.120 like the true bane of my existence. And I've actually 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.240 started using this AI program which it's called brief Point AI, 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.240 and and they are it's also very templated, right, so 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.040 you're constantly trying to find templates. Hey, other associated in 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.760 this law firm, can you send me, you know, a 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.080 previous document? 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:35.680 Now I can? 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.400 They have you know, eighty different objections that you're used 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.200 to making, and they convert them and it's a lot 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.320 more pointing click And of course you have to know 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.880 what you're doing when you're you know that these objections 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:53.240 are valid. But just the document formatting and getting it through, 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.720 you know, and it looked to look good and and 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.200 not have to fight with Microsoft Word for three hours 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:02.480 is really valuable. 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.640 I realized I should have asked this earlier. But when 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.480 we say AI, what does that actually entail in the 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.200 legal field, Because, as you point out, I mean template 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.880 standard forms, those sort of things have been around forever 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.600 and a lot of law firms already use template software 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:22.240 to quickly duplicate ork or make document packages or whatever. 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.680 So when we talk about AI in law, what exactly 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:26.200 would that be? 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.040 I think it can be a lot of things. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.720 One, it can be making that template process a lot faster, 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.400 and uh, you know that will free up labor time 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:40.720 for sure. The you know Chatgypts three pro is doing 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.440 legal research now that is quite excellent. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.720 This is really important. People who think that this that 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.760 three is dumb or is a hallucination machine are not 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:52.960 or that chagpts have not used oh three. 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:54.240 That's that's my view. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.680 And you know, there's this professor at Georgetown I think 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.080 its name is Danny Wels Townsend who's just sort of 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.680 every time a new model has been coming out, has 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.880 been running sort of exam questions that he gives to 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.360 his students. I think it's in his Federal Courts class 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.560 about you know, how they do on each of these questions. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.920 And when O three came out, not even O three PRO. 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:21.400 When O three came out, it was it answered them all, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.680 some of them excellently, and even got what he was 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.320 called an issue spotter question. So it wasn't on the 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.560 face of the question it was an appellate jurisdiction question. 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.680 If you really were thinking hard about it as a student, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.480 you would have noticed this issue that he wasn't asking 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.640 about explicitly. But there might not have been jurisdiction to 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.960 even bring the appeal that he prompted you about. And 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.200 O three caught that. And when I've used it, you know, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.520 you hear a lot of these cases lawyers getting sanctioned 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.200 because they're, you know, submitting things with hallucinated cases. 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:55.600 And there's some funny examples of that. 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:56.840 They're they're amazing. 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.360 And the thing I think to myself is you would 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.240 never admit as a as a partner at a law firm, 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.080 you'd never submit whatever the junior associate just turned over 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.400 to you. Sometimes they didn't understand the case exactly right. 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:13.200 And so that's the job is checking the cases. Shepherdizing 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.400 is the I think the Lexus term for it, and 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.560 making sure the cases stand for what they say, that 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:19.840 they're still valid precedent. 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:21.520 That's the job of being a lawyer. 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.040 And now I can rely on three to start some 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.320 of the research for me, point me even just to 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.679 point me to the cases and exciting to the cases. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.320 And this is without access to Bloomberg Law or Thompson 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.399 Reuters or anything like that. I assume it's coming and 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.280 once it's going to be integrated with those databases of cases. 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.920 Right now, it's just trawling the Internet. I think it's 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.000 going to do a fantastic job. And you spend so 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.720 much time as a lawyer, as a litigator thinking of 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.360 the Boollyan search terms for lexus, the and or these 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.240 sorts of things, and you don't know the exact term 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.320 that's going to come up in case, you know what 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.840 the all of the precedent use this term, and not 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:07.560 having to think about that, I can run it in 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.200 the background as I'm doing another task and for twenty 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.679 minutes and something comes back from three It's got the 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:14.679 five cases that I need to to dig in and 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.200 find the right you know, language to then go on 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.240 Lexus and then to chase it down. 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.399 I've been using three more for just sort of my 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.560 own like intellectual questions from time lawsuits. No, I haven't 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:32.119 done any I haven't started any lawsuits yet. But this 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.280 is really the way that I've been using it, which 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.680 is that it's a fantastic tool for just like discovering 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:42.200 the existing research that's out there. I was looking at 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.480 something I was curious about, like trade barriers within China 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.119 between provinces, you know, something like that. There is a 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.119 lot of research that's been done on the question of 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.600 like Okay, if each of these provinces has some motivation 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.159 to promote their champions, is there any tension? 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:56.760 There is something? 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.840 I would have it found all of this all. It 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.560 had the links to the academic research that's been about it. 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.440 It had summaries of them. The summaries may have been wrong, 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.399 but I'm not in the I'm not going to like 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.440 copy and past summaries and present it as my work. 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.600 I could click on it most of the time, it is, 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.520 they are pretty correct. It's so what you say in 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.120 terms of like just even like being able to find 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.840 the relevant case law, et cetera, seems extremely powerful and 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:25.399 time saving. 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.760 It's truly been life changing for me. Well, and I 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.040 like doing legal research. I like getting into the cases, 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.000 but just you know, if there's a new issue and 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.840 you just don't know where to start, you know, that's 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.360 that It was always I think for a juniors, where 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.600 do I start? And I think it will make their 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.560 life easier in that regard, even if it might also 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:46.640 make their. 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:47.920 Lives you know hard. 0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:00.399 Okay, time saving making associates lives easier, that sounds great 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.320 from a personal perspective, but what does that actually mean 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.800 for billable hours? Because of course, the whole business model 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.080 seems to rely on eking out as much work as 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:14.040 many billable hours as possible, right, and that includes grunt work, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.040 which theoretically could be done by AI. Now, and I'm 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.520 not sure Big law or any law is going to 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:26.720 be necessarily incentivized to use AI if it means a 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.720 reduction in billable hours. I suppose they could make it 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.720 up in volume. Maybe that's that's the idea they can 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.479 take on more cases. But is that the expectation they 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.439 might be able to make it up in volume. I 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:43.040 do think things like they call them alternate fee arrangements 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:46.080 are going to become more popular. We get a flat 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.840 fee of let's say five million dollars to do this 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:50.240 deal for you or something like. 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.119 That, then you're incentivized to do it in the fewest 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:53.520 hours possible. That's right, keep going. 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.439 So that's one possibility that the model just changes the 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.479 billable hour, it stops being the model. The other thing is, 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.240 you know the way it works right now is it's 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.920 been a while for me, so you know, the big partners, 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.320 let's say they're building out at two thousand dollars an 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.040 hour or fifteen hundred dollars an hour and the associates 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.359 are seven hundred dollars an hour. I think in a 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:16.560 lot of ways, what the client is paying for is 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.359 the is really like five thousand dollars an hour for 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.600 the partner and four hundred or three hundred for the associate. 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:28.119 But it just gets built out sept differently. And I 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.520 think one thing is that partners might just accrue a 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.240 lot more of the value with fewer associates. They still 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:36.560 have the billd hours, they're just a lot more efficient. 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.840 And you know, in particular, I think for general counsels 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:45.280 who are hiring at the big law firms, they're hiring 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.440 for safety. You know, nobody ever got fired for hiring Cravat. 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:50.800 It's sort of like a way to think about this 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:54.200 or a big law firm, if something goes wrong, you 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.359 want to have hired the best lawyer you could and 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.200 say to your board or your CEO, look I hired 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.240 a great law firm, and they just they just missed it. 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.320 But look this is everybody agrees this is a great 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.320 law firm. Which is all to just say that. I 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.359 think one possibility here is the bill hour remains, but 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.879 all the value accruise to the top top lawyer. 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.720 Yeah, I mean that seems like it'll have implications. We 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.000 should talk about that further. Something I have done is 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:28.240 I'll take episodes transcripts of odd lats, and afterwards I'll 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.159 do a little self criticism session. Well, I'll like say, like, 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:34.520 where could we have pressed this? Where were the weaknesses 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:35.480 in the guests? 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:36.120 Answer? 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.480 Where should we have pressed further and harder? What were 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.560 some of the logical flaws? What would you have done differently? Etcetera? 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:44.840 And sometimes I've found that to be useful. Have you 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.840 been able to use AI for essentially like building better 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.639 arguments or finding weaknesses in an argument or anything like 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:53.320 that yet. 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:55.840 I haven't done that yet. I'm sure I will. I 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.680 have used it for taking audio and making it into 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.720 oh transcripts. I mean that's just like a foundational thing 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:06.119 for me. Prison will produce an audio of a hearing 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.359 or something like that, and I need the transcript and 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.439 I need to like just read it instead of listening 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:11.520 to it for forty minutes. 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.080 But self criticism, Yeah, but it also it does sound 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:18.480 like you mentioned the issue spotter question, like actually being 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.200 able to identify real legal questions. 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:23.840 Not just an identify precedent. 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.399 Yeah, not just identify president, but actually logical sequences or 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.080 where like it sounds like if you're getting. 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:31.040 That, I'm sure it is coming. 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:35.639 And I think as I, you know, get as the 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:38.000 models get better, and I have to produce a brief 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.960 and maybe I can start running it through. Of course, 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:45.920 lawyers all have huge confidentiality concerns so everything they do, 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:50.320 so I'm very careful about what I'm putting into GPT. Yeah, 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:52.959 you know, and I can run your own deep sea instance. 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:55.040 I think that that's right. And I think the big 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.760 law firms are having sort of servers on site with 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:00.880 their own models, but those models aren't as good as 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.480 three yet, and so I think as you can start 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:09.040 to have great models in house on your own servers, 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:12.479 that's going to really be the thing that launches it. 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:14.480 I can't do that because it's just me and I'm 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:16.679 not going to host a server farm, but I do know, 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:19.280 right the new Apple chips on these very nice the 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:22.960 news they can run you know, things like Lama very well, 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:26.600 and so it's coming. But I think for the top models, 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.359 I'm sort of reluctant to put everything up there that 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:29.920 makes sense. 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:32.919 This is exactly what I was going to ask next, 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:36.159 which is how do clients feel about AI in the 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.520 legal industry, because I imagine, you know, nobody ever got 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.800 fired for hiring Kravath as you mentioned, or some other 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:46.639 magic circle law firm. But on the other hand, if 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:50.480 Kravath is now using AI, I imagine on the client side, 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:56.000 maybe there's some concern over having their material contracts or 0:24:56.080 --> 0:25:00.800 employee data or financing documents or whatever getting uploads to 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:03.880 off site servers. And then there's also the question of 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:06.879 what if AI just makes a mistake, although, as you 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:11.040 pointed out, no partner would ever submit something done by 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:14.240 a junior associate without actually reviewing it first, so maybe 0:25:14.240 --> 0:25:16.400 that's not as much of an issue. But are there 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:20.359 any qualms I guess coming from the client side that 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:21.320 you see. 0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:25.800 So I can't speak to the big law as much 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:29.760 any sure, And it's very different I think on my side, 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:33.280 and I think, you know, my clients are their qualms 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:35.800 are much sort of bigger in terms of privacy and 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.400 much more you know, focused on the government and are 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.399 wanting to get just the best representation they can. So 0:25:42.960 --> 0:25:46.840 but for example, I'm getting medical records from my clients 0:25:46.960 --> 0:25:48.639 a lot. That's a lot of the job of a 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:52.840 plaintiff side lawyer is documenting injuries things like that, and 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.399 they're certainly concerned about their medical privacy, and so I can't, 0:25:56.440 --> 0:26:00.240 you know, use AI yet to take the medical recD 0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:04.679 and condense them into you know, the quick summaries. But 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:07.919 those programs I'm sure are coming where you know you 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:11.399 have there's there's privacy and security and all of the things. 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:13.960 They probably exist already. I'm just not using them yet 0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:18.240 to make that part feasible. I am sure that you know, 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:20.560 if you are Goldman Sachs and you hire a big 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:23.639 law firm and they've been doing your your deals or 0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:27.119 your IPOs such as they exist right now, and you 0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:30.439 don't want the law firm training on your documents to 0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:33.520 go use them in other deals. I'm sure this is 0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:36.920 an issue. On the other hand, you know it might 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:39.440 reduce your legal costs by by half, and you can 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:42.080 fight about that, and so you know what they're willing 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:42.359 to do. 0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:43.399 I don't. I don't know. 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:48.359 Let's extend forth some of these economic questions, because allowing 0:26:48.520 --> 0:26:52.520 the senior partners to accrue more value by not needing 0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:55.760 to allocate as many hours to the junior lawyers, that 0:26:55.840 --> 0:27:00.480 makes total sense for this specific generation, right, because Okay, 0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:03.200 some people are lucky enough to have made partner before AI, 0:27:03.440 --> 0:27:04.840 and then other people are going to be in this 0:27:04.920 --> 0:27:08.320 situation which their value may be could be done more 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:10.920 cheaply or for a few hours, but ten years from 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:13.440 now whatever, a lot of those partners are gonna be retired, etc. 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:17.840 Like what is the downstream consequence of your view in 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:20.719 your view of some of these shifts that happen right now, 0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:23.480 because you know, eventually all the partners you know, ventually 0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:25.400 Evere's get die and there's gonna be new, Like where 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:25.879 does this go? 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:28.359 Like what's the next? What are the consequences? 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:32.480 So I think that the skills that will be valued 0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.080 in lawyers are just going to change a lot. The 0:27:35.440 --> 0:27:40.560 interpersonal skills of client management, walking your client through the 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:43.479 risks that they have, their nervous they're getting sued. These 0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:47.320 are bet the company litigations. The lawyers who can make 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:51.359 them feel safe and let them understand what's happening to 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.359 them and what their odds are. Those sorts of things. 0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:57.560 The lawyers who are great at taking depositions and the 0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:00.560 lawyers who are great at oral argument, those skills are 0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:03.280 going to go up and up. I think in skill 0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:07.800 in value and the skill of legal research or just 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:10.600 being great at writing a brief, I do think that 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.240 that's going to get maybe not the ninety ninth percentile 0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:15.240 brief writing the people who are going to the Supreme 0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:17.320 Court and who are just truly excellent. 0:28:17.359 --> 0:28:18.320 Maybe that will take time. 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:22.600 But the sort of gruntwork, you know, solid junior associate, 0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:25.720 mid level associate, senior associate who are writing the brief, 0:28:26.880 --> 0:28:30.600 that I question whether that skill will have the same value. 0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:34.359 But there's a lot of interpersonal skill that matters a 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:36.439 lot for being a lawyer, and that's going to go 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:37.040 up in value. 0:28:37.200 --> 0:28:42.200 Now. Question with any new technology is does it because 0:28:42.240 --> 0:28:44.840 one argument is clearly, okay, there's an x amount of 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:48.720 demand for legal services and there's an x amount of 0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:52.040 people who supply them, and maybe you save some money. 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:56.240 Could the market for legal services grow such that if 0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:58.880 capacity to do legal research and some of this other 0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:02.120 stuff gets cheaper, that there are more areas it's like, oh, 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:04.360 you know what, maybe this is worth filing the laws. 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:08.240 This was actually going to be my question as well, 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:13.520 but particularly for poorer plaintiffs who normally can't afford a lawyer, 0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:14.680 what did they call them. 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:17.600 In indigent and they sometimes will file pro se and 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:18.760 their on behalf. 0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:19.320 Or maybe more. 0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:22.720 Lawyers like you take on cases, take other cases that 0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:26.160 five years ago the economics wouldn't have made sense, but 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:27.680 today the economics made sense. 0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:30.080 Like could it just be you know, Jevin's paradox? 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:33.160 But for law I think that's absolutely going to happen. 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:34.560 You know, I can just sort of walk through the 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.240 economics in one of my cases. You know, somebody comes 0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:39.280 in and they say they had a false arrest case 0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:43.240 against the NYPD and they spent let's say five hours 0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:46.800 in custody. We sort of know what the expected value 0:29:46.800 --> 0:29:49.200 of that case is. You know, you're doing what chance 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:51.080 are you do you have to win? And what are 0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:53.120 the damages you are going to get when you win? 0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:55.200 And I can sort of and then I I a 0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:59.240 contingency fee, typically a third in New York, and you 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:01.280 can sort of do that math of the expected value 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:02.920 of the case and then think about how many hours 0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:05.760 it's going to take to win that case or get 0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:10.520 to a settlement. And if I'm using AI to make 0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:13.719 myself more productive in my research, the number of hours 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:15.880 that I'm expecting to put into that case goes down. 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:19.560 Suddenly my hurdle rate for you know, what it takes 0:30:19.600 --> 0:30:21.720 to take on that case has gone down, and I 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:24.400 can take on more cases for the same number of hours. 0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:27.360 And so that I definitely think is coming. It's also 0:30:27.400 --> 0:30:30.200 the case that right and because of that, because lawyers 0:30:30.240 --> 0:30:32.000 have to think in that term of you know, how 0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:34.040 much is it going to cost me to do this 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:36.480 case in terms of labor, there are a lot of 0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:40.040 cases brought pro sae in the court system right now. 0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:43.040 I think it's like twenty twenty five percent of cases 0:30:43.040 --> 0:30:45.760 are from pro se litigants. These are other people represent 0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.160 the who represent themselves because they can't afford a lawyer 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:50.520 or you know, my cases are contingency. People aren't paying 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:53.480 out of pocket, but so I can't afford to take 0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:56.280 on the case because the damages aren't potentially high enough. 0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:57.320 That's how I have to sort. 0:30:57.160 --> 0:30:59.600 Of think about it. And so I think there's going 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:02.640 to be a lot more representation. 0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:02.840 Of those people. 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:05.320 It's also the case probably that pro say it lawyers 0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:08.880 are going to start getting better that you know, you 0:31:08.960 --> 0:31:11.240 said you were doing research on your own, you know, 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:15.000 with three it's possible that you know, if it was 0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:18.120 just a little dispute with somebody over some amount of money. 0:31:18.160 --> 0:31:20.479 You might think I can do this myself rather than 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:23.440 trying to go find a lawyer. And so, you know, 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:26.120 but for legal aid, for people who are criminal defense 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:28.280 attorneys at legal aid, those attorneys that I think are 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:30.840 about to go on because of how overworked they are 0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:33.920 and underpaid they are, they they might get a lot 0:31:33.920 --> 0:31:36.240 more efficient and be able to represent a lot more people. 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:40.000 Tracy, I'm imagining a lot of very annoyed judges by 0:31:40.120 --> 0:31:40.640 like pro. 0:31:40.640 --> 0:31:42.080 Saying frivolous lawsuits. 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.080 No I mean no, I mean like someone who did 0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:46.600 their own research, because nothing's more annoying than someone who 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:48.840 does their own research. And then they're like they're like 0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:51.960 citing all these cases that they learned about yesterday and 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:54.280 stuff like that. Like it just seems like you have 0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:58.280 a high potential for obnoxious, obnoxious people who think. 0:31:58.160 --> 0:32:01.160 They know No, no, you're democratized in case. Yeah, that's 0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:01.640 what I say. 0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:03.720 I want to be clear, they're already getting that. 0:32:04.000 --> 0:32:06.560 The judges are getting a lot of it, especially pro 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:08.600 SA prisoners who get to spend a lot of time 0:32:09.160 --> 0:32:11.560 in the legal librarian or filing cases. And some of 0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:15.320 them are excellent, but sometimes they're not so good. I 0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:17.600 clerk for a federal judge, and we saw a lot 0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:20.600 of this litigation, a lot of it pro se. I 0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:23.719 don't know that they're you know, providing AI access in 0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:28.160 prisons unfortunately in terms of litigation. But I think, I 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:29.840 actually think there are going to be a lot of 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:32.640 annoyed judges because there's going this is going to happen. 0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:35.200 It also might be the case that it raises the 0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:38.360 floor of You see a lot of bad legal writing, 0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:41.400 even from lawyers, and I could see it getting it 0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:43.960 actually getting a little bit easier to be a judge and. 0:32:43.880 --> 0:32:48.320 A clerk if everything becomes more volume oriented or the 0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:51.440 business model becomes more about the volume rather than the 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:55.600 billable hours. Do you see a situation where I guess 0:32:56.400 --> 0:33:00.640 the emphasis on sourcing deals in corporate law or sourcing 0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:05.400 cases in plaintiff, Does that become more important, Like that's 0:33:05.440 --> 0:33:07.840 the skill set that you actually need, that sort of 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:09.280 like matchmaker process. 0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:11.480 I think that there's yes. 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:16.320 I think finding the deals, making the economics of the 0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:20.240 of the relationship work is going to go up a 0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:23.880 lot in value. You know, I think it's already the case. 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:28.360 You all see legal advertisements for personal injury lawyers everywhere 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:32.760 all the time. So I mean legal search terms on 0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:37.719 Google are the most expensive cost per click. I mean 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:41.240 these thousands of dollars for cost per click. Case acquisition. 0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:44.640 I think is might go up even more because if 0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:47.240 you can just get the case in and you're still 0:33:47.360 --> 0:33:50.200 you're working less on the case, but you're still getting 0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:53.200 your third contingency fee, you might be willing to pay 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:55.720 even more and more to just generate this volume. I 0:33:55.720 --> 0:33:59.360 mean already mills exist, they call them, you know, plaintiff's mills. 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:02.320 People who are doing you know, six hundred cases per 0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:04.640 you know, every couple of attorneys or something like that. 0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:07.440 The economics of that and just acquiring the case are 0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.080 going to go I think, way way up until maybe 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:12.040 they start competing on price because they can do so 0:34:12.080 --> 0:34:12.760 much more volume. 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:14.080 I want to talk about advertising. 0:34:14.239 --> 0:34:16.560 Have you, Tracy Orgel, have either of you heard the 0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:18.319 radio ads for top Dog Law? 0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:19.080 Yes? 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:20.360 I have not you. 0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:24.479 Every listener go to YouTube and just type top Dog 0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:27.680 Law ad. They're the most incredible, aren't they, Joel, Like 0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:28.680 they're really incredible. 0:34:29.239 --> 0:34:29.399 Yes. 0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:32.200 Just go search right now or when the episode and 0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:35.400 listen to some of these and do you buy ads 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:36.640 on Google? 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:40.960 I've done some Google ad campaigns. I haven't really there's 0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:44.080 actually another topic we're interested in. But a lot of 0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:47.240 I mean a lot of plaintiff side civil rights lawyers 0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:50.560 are buying. It's just not how I've chosen to compete. 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:53.480 I do more referrals from defense lawyers that sort of thing. 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:58.160 But I mean I actually have started to think about, Right, 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:01.640 we know this stuff about young people are starting to 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:05.960 use chat, GPT and other services as they're sort of 0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:08.759 portal to the Internet. They're using it for search and 0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:10.919 so right, all of these law firms spend a lot 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:14.960 on SEO, but what is SEO in a generative AI 0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:18.120 world is sort of an interesting question? What are people 0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:21.719 what are the engines turning up in terms of search terms? 0:35:21.760 --> 0:35:23.520 What do you have to have on your website in 0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:27.439 order to get people to find you through GPT rather 0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:28.000 than Google? 0:35:28.320 --> 0:35:30.440 Is Lexus and Nexus doing anything what they are? 0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:31.239 They are? 0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:34.920 I have not really used their AI products Lexus and 0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:36.439 I know West Law is doing the same. 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:37.640 I use Lexus. 0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:41.160 I assume Bloomberg Law, which is also is doing something similar. 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:46.600 But right now the models that they're using just aren't 0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:47.560 as good as three. 0:35:47.719 --> 0:35:49.479 It's basically and so if. 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:53.880 You're still calling to a four era GPT or similar 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:57.640 from claud or whatever, that sort of quality, I just 0:35:57.640 --> 0:36:00.640 don't think that they're getting good enough recent I think 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:03.920 it really was whatever that step change was to O 0:36:04.040 --> 0:36:08.239 three's level, I think has made the research so much 0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:10.560 better that I just use it, and then I'll go 0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:12.520 look at all the cases on lexus. 0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:16.359 The difference in what you can actually learn from four 0:36:16.760 --> 0:36:19.080 h or whatever for zero, I don't the name it. 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.840 Convention first all three it really is a very big deal. 0:36:22.040 --> 0:36:24.359 And I think like a lot of people formed impressions 0:36:25.000 --> 0:36:28.719 pre three impressions. What other tools are out there that 0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:32.359 are interesting or that come across your world, whether it's 0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:34.279 like I mean, you know, we've been talking a lot 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:36.600 about three, and you mentioned that other one brief something. 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:39.440 Is there anything else out there that's exciting or interesting 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:40.160 or promising. 0:36:40.280 --> 0:36:43.080 There's one I looked at that look promising. Uh, it's 0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:47.520 like Ecutis or ike iq Idis something like that, and 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:50.280 they looked pretty interesting in terms of sort of being 0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:53.600 full swite and wrap around. There's Harvey AI, but they're 0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:56.040 really focused on big law firms. But I know that 0:36:56.080 --> 0:36:59.000 they're working with a lot of big firms. But you know, 0:36:59.040 --> 0:37:02.520 the technology you know, for me that looks promising would 0:37:02.560 --> 0:37:05.440 be people where I can safely upload medical records and 0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:08.360 get instead of trawling through two hundred three hundred pages 0:37:08.440 --> 0:37:10.359 just like what was each progress note? 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:11.760 What did it say? What's the injury? 0:37:11.840 --> 0:37:14.319 That sort of thing, And I think that's coming there 0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:17.640 are I think it's maybe something from case text or 0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:23.160 that summarizes depositions. And of course that's another thing where 0:37:23.880 --> 0:37:25.560 I've tried to use it in the past and it 0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:28.160 wasn't very good. I think just the context windows that 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.840 they were able to use haven't been sufficiently large. But 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:36.800 I think with RAG and with more and with better models, 0:37:36.840 --> 0:37:39.160 I think that will get better and better, you know, 0:37:39.280 --> 0:37:41.719 like this is the Ben Thompson line of this is 0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:44.080 the worst there ever going to be? Yeah, is something 0:37:44.120 --> 0:37:47.120 that I'm constantly trying to think about because I've used 0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:49.600 these these products in the past or tested them and 0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:52.440 they haven't been very impressive. But I also used four 0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:54.600 oh and wasn't very impressed at it's legal research and 0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:57.840 have seen that jump. And so I assume in terms 0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:01.920 of taking depositions and and getting concise summaries, of the 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:03.920 most important facts for your case. That's going to get 0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:06.919 a lot better. I just think the products aren't there yet. 0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:09.799 And maybe because the API calls for the lms just 0:38:09.960 --> 0:38:12.480 aren't to their newest models yet, or it's too expensive. 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:15.959 But I assume that's getting cheaper every you know, more's 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:16.760 loss still applies. 0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:19.120 If you had to bet, if you had to put 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:22.600 actual money on this question, would you say there will 0:38:22.640 --> 0:38:28.480 be more or less lawyers, say ten years from now as. 0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:29.640 A percent the population. 0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:31.920 Yeah, that's a great question. 0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:33.120 Thank you for the caveat check. 0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:35.680 It's important and I hadn't I hadn't thought about this one. 0:38:35.880 --> 0:38:36.880 I would. 0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:41.880 I would bet on fewer, but not that much. I 0:38:41.880 --> 0:38:45.960 would say, I don't think this is, you know, going 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:48.960 to wipe out lawyers. I think fewer and what they 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:50.160 do will change a lot. 0:38:50.960 --> 0:38:55.759 Could you imagine, you know, tech people are obsessed with 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:58.839 the mythical who will be the first person to have 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:03.200 a billion dollars startup with no employees? Could that be like, okay, 0:39:03.239 --> 0:39:06.320 you have you hung a shingle out. I think sometimes 0:39:06.320 --> 0:39:12.600 people use Could you imagine a megafirm with one employee? 0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:16.560 I could imagine mega lawyer with you know, so right, 0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:20.080 you think of se Selena and Barnes, those sorts of big, 0:39:20.120 --> 0:39:23.840 big plaintiffs law firms. I think they that I actually 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:26.360 don't know, but it's a lot, and it's all across 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:30.360 the country. But so much of what they do is 0:39:31.040 --> 0:39:34.120 make the discovery demand, respond to the demands, do the 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:37.560 get the medical records, send out a settlement demand letter, 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:42.760 Negotiate with the opposing council or the carrier from the insurer. 0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:46.319 You know, my client has a torn rotator cuff and 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:49.360 a torn meniscus or something like that from this car accident, 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:52.719 and they have an exact expected value of the case, 0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:55.439 and it's just negotiating that. And I think they could 0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.719 go from you know, let's say one hundred cases per 0:39:58.719 --> 0:40:01.319 attorney to a thousand or two two thousand because they 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:05.399 could set up an automated workflow a lot easier, I think, 0:40:05.440 --> 0:40:08.840 And so you know, that person could could start making 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:12.160 fifty million or one hundred million a year per one lawyer. 0:40:12.239 --> 0:40:15.040 Then the you know already five million that they're making 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:15.879 or something like that. 0:40:16.000 --> 0:40:16.880 These top firms. 0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:19.640 One last little question I mentioned your a poker player. 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:22.080 In poker, you know, big thing has been the emergence 0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:24.319 of solvers and you go back and you like, look 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:26.600 at that, did you play it very well? But it's 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:28.960 all about what you kind of what you described of, 0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:32.160 like your calculator EV right and. 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:33.680 Did you play it right? And you don't always win. 0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:36.200 And you may have calculated ev right and you took 0:40:36.200 --> 0:40:38.560 on the case, but you don't get the outcome. How 0:40:39.160 --> 0:40:43.000 scientific is that the calculating evy on a given case 0:40:43.040 --> 0:40:45.759 and has it is there a technology that's working on that? 0:40:46.000 --> 0:40:49.040 So it's not very scientific at all. You know, it's 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:53.680 a you can assess liability, I think pretty reasonably. Is 0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:56.120 this going to be something where we're definitely going to win? 0:40:56.160 --> 0:40:59.600 You know, the personal injury car accident lawyers to say, 0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:02.200 you know, the police report says this person made an 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.240 a legal left turn. Perfect liability. I'm going to win instantly, 0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:07.960 and then you're just evaluating the damages. One thing I've 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:13.800 actually explored is is looking into whether lms can estimate 0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:17.880 the damages based on the injuries that you describe pretty well. 0:41:17.960 --> 0:41:20.880 Go through the case law where there's cases this is 0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:24.439 called remitted, or cases where you might hear like, oh, 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:27.560 this person got one hundred million dollars for their you know, 0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:30.000 hot coffee or whatever. You know, these sort of classic cases, 0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:31.880 and a judge will knock it down. They'll say, this 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:35.440 case with this injury is only worth this much. But 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:38.120 you could take all that language and start to estimate, 0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:42.400 you know, quantify because words or numbers. With these programs, 0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:45.840 you could start to quantify what are the injuries worth 0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:48.160 in the in the case law and then multiply that 0:41:48.239 --> 0:41:50.120 by So I think that sort of thing is going 0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:53.600 to get a lot more scientific, and they're going to 0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:56.120 use it on the carrier side. So Geico is going 0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:59.040 to be able to say, you know, you've described these injuries. 0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:01.759 We have a database of a thousand cases just like this, 0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:03.520 and this was what we you know, and then you 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:05.440 could haggle, oh, well this is a great plaintiff or 0:42:05.560 --> 0:42:09.360 something like that, and they're super sympathetic and you know, 0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:13.440 have that negotiation. But I think that process of evaluating 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:16.839 the exact value of an injury or of a case 0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:21.000 is going to get a lot more scientific and facilitate 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:22.840 settlements to happen quicker. 0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:26.680 I imagine AI might be especially useful in class action 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:30.920 lawsuits as well, where you're dealing with like finding thousands 0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:33.680 of people potentially to attach to a case and then 0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:36.319 actually contacting them and getting information from them. 0:42:36.800 --> 0:42:38.840 That seems reasonable to me. 0:42:38.920 --> 0:42:40.920 Also, in the class action cases, you just got a 0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:44.200 volume of data that you have to do discovery on. 0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:46.759 But it hadn't occurred to me. But you know, I 0:42:46.800 --> 0:42:49.680 do know that sometimes class actions start because somebody finds 0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:52.200 a Reddit thread and they see on Reddit, you know, 0:42:52.520 --> 0:42:54.880 all the people are all complaining about this same issue 0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:58.760 with this product or something like that, and the lawyers, 0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:01.759 you know, reach out to them, and so it is 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:02.920 entirely possible. 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:04.080 I could I could see that. 0:43:04.320 --> 0:43:07.040 That's another thing where you could have AI just trawling 0:43:07.200 --> 0:43:09.360 the internet for possible cases. 0:43:09.680 --> 0:43:10.640 I think so. 0:43:10.840 --> 0:43:13.760 Or you know, what are people posting about on Twitter? 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:15.160 What are they all getting harmed by? 0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:18.600 I don't know. So it's it seems entirely plausible. 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:20.040 Since you mentioned it. 0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:22.759 I just want to say you mentioned illegal lefts and 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:27.959 tracy and listeners. I had a issue last year whereight 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:31.120 I'm not going to get into it, but it involved 0:43:31.120 --> 0:43:32.320 taking an illegal left. 0:43:32.200 --> 0:43:33.760 Turn a criminal. 0:43:34.640 --> 0:43:35.080 I'm not. 0:43:36.480 --> 0:43:37.480 Where you found innocent. 0:43:38.320 --> 0:43:39.920 I am not a criminal. 0:43:40.120 --> 0:43:44.720 Thanks to a referral that our guest here, Joel helped 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:46.120 make for me. I'm not going to say it. We're 0:43:46.120 --> 0:43:47.640 not going to talk anymore about the case. It was 0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:50.680 super annoying. I'm not gonna say anything more, but I 0:43:50.800 --> 0:43:53.640 just want to. I'm it's my disclosure for this episode. 0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:56.279 So Joel Wertheimer, thank you so much for coming on 0:43:56.320 --> 0:43:56.799 odd last. 0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:57.600 That was fantastic. 0:43:57.640 --> 0:43:58.479 Thank you for having me. 0:44:12.800 --> 0:44:13.200 Tracy. 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:17.040 Before we talk about conclusions, I must press upon listeners 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:20.200 again to search for top dog law firm ads. In fact, 0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:22.960 after we do this episode, we walk back to our desk, Tracy, 0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:25.240 I'm going to insist that you watch. 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:25.520 A few of them. 0:44:25.680 --> 0:44:27.920 I love that your priority for this episode. The one 0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:30.160 thing you must get out of this episode is listening 0:44:30.160 --> 0:44:31.000 to top dog ads. 0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:34.759 No, I swear I was an uber home several months 0:44:34.840 --> 0:44:37.040 ago and this ad came on the radio and just 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:40.240 like nothing I had ever heard my entire life. Nothing 0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:43.320 will prepare you for this, this law firm's ads. Anyway, 0:44:43.760 --> 0:44:45.920 I am very intrigued. Yeah, all right, well that was 0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:47.239 a fantastic conversation. 0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:50.160 Yeah. One thing I am wondering is, you know, in 0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:53.640 the US, there's a lot of talk about an overly 0:44:54.239 --> 0:44:57.200 litigious society, and I kind of wonder if AI is 0:44:57.280 --> 0:44:58.880 potentially just going to make it worse. 0:44:59.200 --> 0:45:03.040 It sounds very to me that it will make it 0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:05.640 worse or better or worse. But I think, like, you know, 0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:07.799 it does. My guess is that there's going to be 0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:11.040 some sort of you know, Jeffen's paradox thing where like 0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:16.000 some existing labor will get really cheap or maybe completely unnecessary, 0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:20.279 and then other you know, the optimistic version is that 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.279 defendants or people without a lot of money get better 0:45:23.360 --> 0:45:26.799 quality representation. I get, you know, it feels like it's 0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:29.880 not gonna just it's gonna probably have very big distributional 0:45:29.960 --> 0:45:31.800 and qualitative shifts on the industry. 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:34.680 Yeah, and this is the thing I'm also wondering. So, Okay, 0:45:34.880 --> 0:45:39.160 junior associates, maybe they they're doing less work, maybe they're 0:45:39.200 --> 0:45:43.080 slightly happier. But I guess the idea that more of 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:45.799 the value just accrues to the partners at a time 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:49.719 when it's harder to become partner. Uh, that seems to 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:51.960 be the downside if you're going into the legal profession. 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:53.440 Yeah, no, totally. 0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:56.759 Like it feels like we're at this moment and this 0:45:56.920 --> 0:46:00.480 applies to a lot of actually AI economics quest and 0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:04.719 we should definitely do more on them where people imagine 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:07.840 or people maybe even rightly surmised that you know, there 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:11.319 will be a lot of benefits for you know, existing 0:46:11.960 --> 0:46:16.080 holders of wealth or companies can do layoffs, right, and 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:18.520 I don't know the degree to that which is really happening, 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:20.400 but at least in theory, and there's going to be 0:46:20.560 --> 0:46:23.799 firing of junior workers, et cetera. But that's like a 0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:28.480 temporary condition because you know, first of all, like, Okay, 0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:31.360 a company saves a bunch of money by firing what 0:46:31.440 --> 0:46:34.560 eventually becomes characterized as gruntwork. Well, what do they spend 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:36.960 that money on, right, because that's savings and so does 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.640 that do they invest in? Does that turn into consumption 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:41.920 for the partners? Like there are a lot of you know, 0:46:41.920 --> 0:46:43.799 people are like, oh, it's gonna be mass layoffs. But 0:46:43.840 --> 0:46:46.319 I never find these questions joy satisfying because the money 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:51.080 doesn't disappear. It's someone's savings, and someone's savings either become 0:46:51.280 --> 0:46:55.000 someone's consumption or someone's investment, and its anyone's consumption or 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:59.600 investment becomes someone else's income. So therefore, you know, thinking 0:46:59.680 --> 0:47:02.360 through some of these next level things I think is 0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:05.520 really important. And AI clearly seemed just like ground zero, 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:08.920 and I do think O three is really good and 0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:11.520 everyone no, seriously, everyone needs to check it out and 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:13.920 update their views if they haven't yet on the quality 0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:15.000 of the research you can do. 0:47:15.680 --> 0:47:18.840 It does sound like it's maybe solved. The hallucination problem 0:47:19.120 --> 0:47:21.080 was that everyone was making fun of earlier. 0:47:21.200 --> 0:47:23.719 Yeah, I mean like they're still there for sure. But 0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:26.800 because you can actually find links to documents and stuff 0:47:26.800 --> 0:47:28.680 like that, the speed with which you can get up 0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:31.400 to speed on anything is very impressive. 0:47:31.520 --> 0:47:33.319 All right, I'm gonna go test it. Shall we leave 0:47:33.320 --> 0:47:33.520 it there? 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:34.319 Let's leave it there. 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:37.120 This has been another episode of the Oudlots podcast. I'm 0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:39.760 Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:42.680 And I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 0:47:42.840 --> 0:47:46.719 Follow our guest on Blue Sky Jill Wertheimer. He's at Worthwhile. 0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:50.239 Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carman armand dash Ol 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:53.200 Bennett at Dashbod and Keil Brooks at Kilbrooks. From our 0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:55.879 Oddlots content, go to bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots, 0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:57.719 where we have a daily newsletter and all of our 0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:00.320 episodes and you can chat about all of these topics. 0:48:00.360 --> 0:48:02.480 Twenty four to seven in our discord. We even have 0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:03.120 an AI. 0:48:02.960 --> 0:48:05.799 Channel in there, and if you enjoy Odd Lots, if 0:48:05.800 --> 0:48:07.759 you like it when we talk about the impact of 0:48:07.800 --> 0:48:11.200 AI on various professions, then please leave us a positive 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:14.520 review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you 0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:17.239 are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of 0:48:17.280 --> 0:48:20.480 our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do 0:48:20.520 --> 0:48:23.360 is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:25.600 the instructions there. 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