1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Before we begin, Please note this series includes talk of 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: suicide and sexual violence. Please take care while listening. So 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: I had to be at a friend's house in Annapolis 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: at six and it was three, and I'm like, I 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: got time, and I have an address, so I'm going 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: to go to the house then that I could say hello, 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Douglass's house, right. Kim has never forgotten about Doug, the 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: married state trooper who was in a relationship with Sandy 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: before her death. In fact, she has amassed an impressive 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: file on him. She's paid for background checks on his name, 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: studied his wife's Facebook page, research the properties the couple own. 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: She even went to the trouble of requesting Doug's training 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: records from the State Police. And she's done all this 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: because of her suspicion that Doug knows why Sandy was 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: in the pollard that night. She thinks he might have 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: been with her because in the months before Sandy's death, 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: they had an intimate relationship, one that led, according to 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: Sandy's writings, to a pregnancy and an abortion, and on 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: the night of her death, Sandy was dressed up like 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: she was meeting someone for a date. The medical examiner 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: found quote numerous well preserved spermatozoa inside her body, and 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: the location of Sandy's death the Pollard. It was a 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: local cop hangout a mile from where Doug worked. In 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: the car with Sandy was a letter for him. As 25 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: much as Kim has wanted answers from Doug, she has 26 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: always been too afraid to reach out to him directly, 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: worried about how he might react to her meddling. But 28 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: on her last trip to Maryland, she decided to pay 29 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: him a visit. So I'm driving down this little cul 30 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: de sac and I'm thinking, you know nothing, I'm not 31 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: nervous or anything, and so I keep going and there's 32 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: this little dinky road because I see a house out 33 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: in the woods. So I've already gone down this wooded path. 34 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm driving down this road, and my brain must have 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: registered the sign that said video surveillance stapled to a 36 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: tree trunk was a sign that warned visitors they were 37 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: being recorded. And then all of a sudden, I see 38 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: his house. I trust my instincts and I just hit 39 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: my brakes some now because now I'm like, I'm going 40 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: deeper into the woods and it's getting a little creepier, 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: and um, so I stopped and I start thinking, Okay, 42 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm getting I'm like taking a little bit too much risk. 43 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to back out. So I back out and 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: leaving my Heart's like race in. Kim left without making 45 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: contact with Doug. Her courage had only taken her so far. 46 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: What Kim didn't know at the time was that Doug 47 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: had recently had another unexpected visitor. Just a few days earlier, 48 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: a Prince George's County Police detective showed up on Doug's 49 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: doorstep asking questions about Sandy. From My Heart Radio, I'm 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: Melissa Jelson, and this is what happened to Sandy beale 51 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: An I Heart Original podcast, Chapter seven, The Unraveling. I'll 52 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: come back to Doug later, but first I want to 53 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: explain why Kim was in Maryland. To begin with. She 54 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: had been invited to meet with a cold case detective 55 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: Bernie Nelson at the Prince George's County Police headquarters in Forestville. 56 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: Kim had never met Bernie before, but had known of 57 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: him since two thousand and six. He's the one who 58 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: answered her call when she first tried to get the 59 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: police report, and he's also the one in who actually 60 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: tracked it down going to Detective Sachelski's house to physically 61 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: retrieve it. I mean, I've heard this man's name since 62 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: two thousand and six and it's so that was kind 63 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: of exciting that I was going to finally meet him. 64 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: He could have just blown me off that he did. 65 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: And so, on a brisk morning in October, Bernie and 66 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: Kim finally met in person, wearing masks. Due to the 67 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: coronavirus pandemic. Kim wasn't permitted to record their conversation, but 68 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: she invited her sister along and she took diligent notes. 69 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: I've used these contemporaneous notes, interviews with Kim, and written 70 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: responses from PG County to create this account of the meeting. 71 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: So this is eleven o'clock on Monday morning, and he 72 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: guess he asks, so how did all this podcast stuff happen? 73 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: And uh so he was very interested, and UM I 74 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: encouraged him and like, I really think it's in your 75 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: best interest to allow them to interview you. Because he's stating, 76 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: he goes, well, we don't think that we should have 77 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: to do it because we've done our due diligence and 78 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: we've done everything that we can and the powers to 79 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: be believed. There's nothing else that we can do, And 80 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, what, how can how can you say you've 81 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: done everything? I've got all these questions, and we've had 82 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: questions for years. Kim was excited, but nervous. A previous 83 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: meeting with the state police years ago had left him 84 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: feeling intimidated. She brought with her a list of questions 85 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: for Bernie so that she wouldn't forget what she wanted 86 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: to say. And this guy was calm and and was 87 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: wanting to educate me on his part on how they 88 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: saw it. Bernie told her that the department had coal 89 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: cases and very hugh staff to work them all, but 90 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: he had taken the time to get familiar with Sandy's case. 91 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: He knew, for instance, about the ride along notations in 92 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: Sandy's calendar, the names and numbers of local police officers 93 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: in her address books. Kim told Bernie what she thought 94 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: that a number of cops had taken advantage of Sandy 95 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: pursuing inappropriate sexual relationships with the teen, and to her surprise, 96 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: he didn't dispute it. He agreed that at the time 97 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: seventy seven, the climate was not there for females to 98 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: be police officers, and they didn't want her, They did 99 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: not want females to be there. He agreed that all 100 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: these officers were inappropriate. None of their behaviors were was becoming, 101 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: and today they would have all been terminated, or at 102 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: least they should have been in his opinion, and Nelson's 103 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: going on, don't condone any o their behavior. He was 104 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: disgusted as we were talking, and I just was floored 105 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: that he was being so accountable. Bernie told Kim that 106 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: he understood why the Beal family was so suspicious of 107 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: PG County Police given the circumstances, and he came across 108 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: a sincere to him and he's like, I understand why 109 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: you guys doubt everything. He also credited him with the 110 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: amount of stuff she'd been able to dig up on 111 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: her own, acknowledging her fierce commitment to the case. He said, 112 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: you've done your homework. He said, you did a good 113 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: job with this, And he's like, that's another reason that 114 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to follow through, because I knew you're not 115 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: gonna let me go here. While Bernie was telling him 116 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: all of this, there was another cop in the room, 117 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: Detective McDonald. He remained fairly quiet throughout the meeting, Kim 118 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: didn't even know why he was there until he started 119 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: telling her about his recent visit to Doug's house. Just 120 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: days earlier, Detective McDonald had surprised the retired state trooper 121 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: at his home and questioned him about his involvement with Sandy. 122 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: I was able to confirm with PG County Police that 123 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: this visit took place, so um McDonald called him outside 124 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: the house and he said we I questioned him for 125 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. An hour and a half, 126 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: that's a long time to visit with somebody, according to McDonald. 127 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: Doug admitted that he'd had a relationship with Sandy, but 128 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: he downplayed its significance. He said he did not know 129 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: she was pregnant. He did not know she had an abortion. 130 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: He didn't pay for any any abortion. Doug confirmed that 131 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: the Pollard where Sandy was found dead was a local 132 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: hangout for state troopers and a place Sandy had gone before. 133 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: The Bills, including Kim, had suspected this for years. He 134 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: told McDonald that Pepco Utility yard was the common spot 135 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: for Maryland State Police that gathered and it was called 136 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: don't know what that means, but the spot was called. 137 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: He said, girls, including Sandy, would come and socialize with 138 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: the cops. He said it was kind of like a 139 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: groupie thing, like they followed a band, and that the 140 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: cops would just s gather there. But that was the 141 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: extent of the information Doug would share about Sandy. He 142 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: denied being in the pollard the night of Sandy's death 143 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: or having anything to do with it. He said he 144 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: had not been in the pollard that evening. He said, 145 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: I didn't know that she was dead until my supervisor 146 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: brought me in a few days later. He said, my 147 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: supervisor reported to me, and then I was questioned That 148 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: Maryland State Police did interview him made him do a polygraph. 149 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: Doug stated that after Sandy's death, his employer, the Maryland 150 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: State Police, opened an internal investigation on his relationship with 151 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: the team. He said he was polygraphed to determine if 152 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: his actions violated the agency's code of conduct. So Doug 153 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: was questioned back then, but not by Prince George's County 154 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: Police who were investigating Sandy's unnatural death. Rather, he had 155 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: to answer to his employer, who probably learned of the 156 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: improper relationship from Detective Sachelski. All of this it happened 157 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: behind the Bill's back. Joanne, Sandy's mom, was never informed 158 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: about this investigation, despite the fact that she called the 159 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: state police looking for Doug and expressed her concerns about 160 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: the relationship. I want to know what else they learned 161 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: from him, and I'm sure it's stuff they didn't want 162 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: me to know because it was going to hurt my feelings. 163 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: In Kim's eyes, Doug had always existed in this protected bubble, untouchable, 164 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: living above the law. Now learning that he hadn't completely 165 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: evaded scrutiny that he was compelled to explain his relationship 166 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: with Sandy on his front law no less, it left 167 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: her feeling elated. To be clear, Kim didn't believe that 168 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: Doug told the whole truth, and she had so many 169 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: more questions for him, but it felt like a small 170 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: victory that he had acknowledged and confirmed his relationship with Sandy, 171 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: because this was something I had tried to get him 172 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: to do to no avail. Doug never responded to my 173 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: many letters and emails, even though I have an email 174 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: tracker and I could tell that someone had read my 175 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: messages often many times soon after I sent them. But 176 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: Doug wasn't able to ignore a detective on his doorstep, 177 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: and so four decades after Sandy's death, he was forced 178 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: to remember her. The cold case detectives never explained to 179 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: him why they visited Doug, And I can't say for 180 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: sure because Prince George's County police declined to make anyone 181 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: available for an interview. But my instinct just not that 182 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: they suspected Doug of murder, but that they wanted to 183 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: show the bills that they've done something, because despite the 184 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: recent visit to Doug's house, the PG County Police Department 185 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: was still convinced that Sandy died by suicide. He stated 186 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: that they believed that there was no foul play, that 187 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: no further investigation needed to be done, and they didn't 188 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: need to investigate anything further because they felt there was 189 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: nothing criminal in nature. Bernie told her that based on 190 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: the forensic evidence at the scene of Sandy's death, it 191 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: was indisputable that she died by suicide. But Kim had 192 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: seen all the same evidence as Bernie and had come 193 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: to a dramatically different conclusion. And we're going back and 194 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: forth arguing, and he's like no, and so I pull 195 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: out all my notes and I put them out there. 196 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: For years, Kim had been compiling what she believed were 197 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: the most compelling pieces of evidence that cast doubt on 198 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: the theory of suicide. Now Kim went over each point 199 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: one by one. There was the gun discovered without any fingerprints. 200 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: There was the cardboard found under Sandy's tires, which indicated 201 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: to Kim that Sandy was trying to leave. There was 202 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: the fact that Sandy's body was discovered so close to 203 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: her boyfriend's place of work, and yet he was not 204 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: interviewed by Prince George's County Police as part of the 205 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: death investigation. There was the sperm inside sandy, sperm which 206 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: could now be tested for DNA and could potentially solve 207 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: the question of who was last with Sandy. But most importantly, 208 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: there was this strange location of the gunshot wound. Why 209 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: would Sandy, who was left handed, reach across her body 210 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: to shoot herself in the right side. So we get 211 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: into the trajectory part, and I told him that I 212 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: didn't understand how one could shoot themselves in the manner 213 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: that you're saying, and if she had in fact committed suicide, 214 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: and he goes, she was she was shot in the stomach. 215 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: I'm like no. Ever since I met Kim, she has 216 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: described the bullet as having penetrated Sandy's right side and 217 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: exited through the left side of her back. Kim is 218 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: not wrong, but when you look at the evidence a 219 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: little more closely, a more nuanced picture emerges. According to 220 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: the autopsy report, the entrance wound was in Sandy's abdomen 221 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: less than three inches to the right of her midline, 222 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: not in her flank as Kim had described it. It's 223 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: a slight difference, but an important distinction when it comes 224 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: to visualizing how someone would inflict such an injury. To 225 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: be told that she was mistaken about the location of 226 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: the entrance wound, even by a small distance, was genuinely 227 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: confusing for Kim. And she and I said, but she 228 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: couldn't have. Possibly, she couldn't have. She couldn't be contortionist 229 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: and do this. And he's like him. She took the gun, 230 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: she braced it on the steering wheel, and she used 231 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: her thumbs, and she she put it to her stomach 232 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: because it was a direct shot to the stomach. It 233 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: went through right here, and it came right out the 234 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: back behind her, her back. The trajectory of the bullet 235 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: had never been explained to him in this way. Instead 236 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: of traveling from right to left, Bernie showed Kim that 237 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: the path of the bullet really moved from front to back. 238 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: There was a deviation of about five inches, but that 239 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: could be accounted for by the angle of Sandy's body 240 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: or the angle of the gun, or a combination of 241 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: the two. And he says, um, but there was gunpowder 242 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: on the steering wheel. And I'm like what. And it 243 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: was kind of like this thing came at me where 244 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: all of a sudden things were becoming clear. And I'm like, 245 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: what do you mean there was gunpowder on the steering 246 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: wheel And he goes, yes, there was a spray of 247 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: gunpowder on her hands, the gun on the on the 248 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: steering wheel and forward. And I'm like, oh god. Kim 249 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: had never heard about gunpowder being on the steering wheel 250 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: of Sandy's car. The detail wasn't in the police report, 251 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: and no one had ever mentioned it to her before, 252 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: but now she imagined it. What he said was that's 253 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: how it got in her hands, that everything goes backwards, 254 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: that this the gunpowder sprays back. That's what they said. 255 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: And I don't know in anything about it. But as 256 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: he's telling me this, my whole body's I went, oh God, 257 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: this is you know. It was the first time I 258 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: was able to see that it's a possibility. And I 259 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: just was like, I started crying, and I we only 260 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: had masks on, so all I could see was his eyes, 261 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: and his eyes were watering up too. At that moment, 262 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: Kim's certainty in the facts that she had been repeating 263 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: for so many years started to break apart. It was 264 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: a disorienting and destabilizing feel line. She was able to 265 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: glimpse an alternative version of events for Sandy's death that 266 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: made just as much sense as the one she had 267 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: believed for so long. After Kim and her sister left 268 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: the meeting, they drove immediately to the pollard where Sandy 269 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: had died. They sat in the car, their heads buzzing 270 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: with the information that just received, and it was here 271 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: that Kim's sister began talking. We went straight from there 272 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: to the Pepco utility yard to just kinda like debrief 273 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: and and chill and look um, and she just got 274 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: very sad. She's like, I wish that I just knew. 275 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: I wish that I could have just told her that 276 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: this two she'll pass and this doesn't have to be. 277 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: But I know exactly what she was going through if 278 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: she was sitting in that car by herself. Kim's sister 279 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: confided that she had been in Sandy's position before. She 280 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: had too, had thought of suicide a number of times 281 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: during her life. Kim later described this moment to me 282 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: as one of the most vulnerable she had ever shared 283 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: with her sister. Kim listened to her sister talk while 284 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: looking out at the Pollard. She had visited the location 285 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: nearly a dozen times as part of her investigation into 286 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: Sandy's death, and she had pictured all the ways Sandy 287 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: could have died at the hands of another. Now she 288 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: saw the scene through her sister's eyes, She's like, Kim, 289 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: I can tell you that the desire to commit suicide 290 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: is really hard and um, it's not a pleasant place 291 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: to be and I know exactly what she was tormented 292 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: with at that moment. I was in Spain on vacation 293 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: when all of this was happening, and my phone lit 294 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: up with a text from Kim. She had gone right 295 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: from the Pollard to the airport, and as she waited 296 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: for her flight back to Texas, she gulped down a 297 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: glass of wine, and she texted me this line quote, 298 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: I think she committed suicide. When I read this, I 299 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: was stunned. I had told him a lot of information 300 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: over the last few months that complicated the story she 301 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: believed about Sandy's death. She took it all in stride, 302 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: but her confidence in her stance remained strong. Now she 303 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: had completely reversed her position, abandoning a belief that had 304 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,479 Speaker 1: driven her for so long. This belief, it was a 305 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: part of Kim. It dictated how she spent her free time. 306 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: It reached into her professional life and informed how she 307 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: identified with her clients. It molded her personality. How could 308 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: a single meeting change her mind? What could Bernie have 309 00:19:54,600 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: said or done to persuade her? I mean, look, think 310 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: about you know yourself and what you believe about this story, right, 311 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: or like, what would it take to convince you of 312 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: a different narrative? And I think when you think about 313 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: it that way, you realize that, you know, getting entrenched 314 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: in the system of beliefs is actually shockingly easy. Like 315 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: that's what we do as human beings. Steven Sloman is 316 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: a professor of cognitive linguistic and psychological sciences at Brown University. 317 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: He studies how people think. How do you actually change mind? 318 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: The traditional way to think about it is that if 319 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: you just see enough evidence, then finally you'll change your mind. 320 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: I think it's very clear that's false. In fact, in 321 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: the literature, there are people who propose what are called 322 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: backfire effects. You take people who feel strongly about an issue, 323 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: and you show them evidence that's inconcern assistant with their view, 324 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: and in some conditions, people come to feel even more 325 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: strongly the way they felt before, despite the evidence. If 326 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: you bombard someone with information that challenges their beliefs, they're 327 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: likely to double down on their original stance. But listen 328 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: to them, really listen, and the opposite might happen. Research 329 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: shows that people who are genuinely listened to feel safer 330 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: in the conversation and experience less anxiety. As a result, 331 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: they're less defensive and better at seeing both sides of 332 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: an argument, and they walk away from the conversation with 333 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: a more nuanced perspective. But if we're talking about how 334 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: to approach an individual to change their minds, well, the 335 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: first thing you do is you acknowledge where that person 336 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: is coming from. Right, You don't have to agree with it, 337 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: but you have to give the person a sense that 338 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: you understand and them, and you understand their values. Right, 339 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: if you can acknowledge their most sacred values first, that's 340 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: a really good entryway. Then the person feels respected and 341 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: feels like they're talking to someone who understands them. So 342 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: that's step one. Hearing this, it sounded almost exactly like 343 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: what Bernie did. Kim told me how he acknowledged that 344 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: PG County police had mistreated Sandy and how wrong it was. 345 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: He didn't try to minimize it or shrug it off 346 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: as every other police officer had in the years. Kim 347 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: had been asking questions. Step two is not to enforce 348 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: your own view on the person. What you have to 349 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: do is sort of elicit. You have to be kind 350 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: of platonic about it. That is, you have to elicit 351 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: that person's perspective and then start asking them questions so 352 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: that they can see themselves where the inconsistencies are in 353 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: their story. And then if you can fill them in, 354 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: you might very slowly gradually be able to sort of 355 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: turn the corner and allow them to integrate the information 356 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: with a different narrative, a new narrative. I thought of 357 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: Sandy's gunshot wound. Kim had walked into the meeting believing 358 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: one thing about its trajectory and was shown gently that 359 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: she was mistaken. I wondered if that moment opened the 360 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: door to her being able to see other possibilities. Narratives, 361 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: you know, have have teeth that sink into all aspects 362 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: of our lives, especially when they concerned really important things 363 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: like the death of a child. You have all of 364 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: this knowledge that's kind of sitting together in this tight 365 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: little story, and you have to loosen up the whole thing, 366 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: and then when it falls part, it falls apart as 367 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: a whole and reshapes as a whole. What Kim experienced 368 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: in that meeting with Bernie may best be described as 369 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: an epiphany. And I don't think it was the individual 370 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: revelation of gunpowder on the steering wheel that triggered this change. 371 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 1: I think it has a lot more to do with 372 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: how she was treated during the meeting and what Bernie 373 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: was able to offer her recognition, acknowledgement, a sympathetic ear 374 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: I was heard, and I was disarmed with his empathy 375 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: and his um compassion. I just I mean, I I 376 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: just was blown away, and then I don't know, for 377 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: whatever reason, maybe it was his demeanor and the way 378 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: he was presenting it opposed to how it was presented 379 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: in the past. Kim's previous experience with Prince George's County 380 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: police was dotted with contentious interactions, instances where she was 381 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: brush off or treated as a nuisance. All the things 382 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: she had found suspicious, Sandy's address books, the ride alongs, 383 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: her close connections to local police officers were dismissed as insignificant, 384 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: and Kim was made to feel as if she was 385 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: losing it seeing things that weren't there. For the first time, 386 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 1: a PG County police officer acknowledged that she was justified 387 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: in her suspicions. Sandy's involvement with police was relevant, it 388 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: did matter, and Bernie went so far as to say 389 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: that it may have contributed to Sandy's decision to take 390 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: her own life. So I was focused on these eyes, 391 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: and his eyes were just kind and he cared, and 392 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: it was like he could see the pain and he 393 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: could even I mean, he he felt the pain. He 394 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: wasn't in tears, but he just had those eyes and 395 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: they were so compassionate that it was there was a 396 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: connection of you really gotta get it was like, you 397 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: really have to believe me. It was like he was 398 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: almost begging me, you know, almost get yourself out of 399 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: this misery that you're in, because it's just the truth. 400 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: When Kim texted me, quote, I think she committed suicide, 401 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: it was a bold statement, and in our following conversation 402 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: she sounded confident that she now knew the truth, but 403 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: letting go of a core belief after all those years. 404 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: It's not a linear process. There were days, minutes, hours 405 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: where her suspicions resurfaced and her doubts rushed back in, 406 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: only to later subside like a pendulum swinging back and forth. 407 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: She texted me about the experience, quote, I find myself 408 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: shifting often from knowing she was killed and grieving how 409 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: much she was really hurting. Kim was undergoing the painstaking 410 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: process of rebuilding her understanding of Sandy's death after her 411 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: tightly wand belief had started to unravel. I'm still struggling 412 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: with the transition of changing the words from killed too, 413 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: took her life or whatever that's different, because it does 414 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: I still have that resistance in my head to it. 415 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: I don't want to believe that that's the truth, but 416 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: I do know that what she was facing was really horrible. 417 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: How do you feel about like letting some of that 418 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: stuff go? I feel like I let her down, but 419 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: I feel like a fool that I still have questions. UM, 420 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: I feel like I wasted your time, and I feel 421 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: like I wasted the Beal's time because it just felt 422 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: like a why did you make this into something that 423 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't. I don't know. That's what I've been struggling with. 424 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: After Kim flew home to Texas, she knew she had 425 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: to tell the rest of the bills what she now 426 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 1: believed about Sandy's death, but she didn't want to do 427 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: it over the phone. She couldn't bear the thought of 428 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: having four individual conversations where she tried to put into 429 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: words what had happened during her meeting with Bernie, and 430 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: so she packed her bags once again and booked a 431 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: flight to Maine. Before leaving, she penned an email to 432 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: Bernie to say thank you. He rolled back right away. 433 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: Here's Kim reading some of his email. And as I 434 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: said before, I'm very sorry about what happened to Sandy. 435 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: She was put through far too much by people who 436 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: should have known better and whom she trusted and looked 437 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: up to. It is shameful and it's caused a young 438 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: lady with a promising future to die at a very 439 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: young age. I hope that answered your question satisfactory, and 440 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: please don't hesitate to let me know if you have 441 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: any other questions. Have a safe trip. What happened on 442 00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: that trip is on our next and final episode. We've 443 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: come along way with this, but you, Doug and Doug 444 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: and so in my mind, I think we've come to 445 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: the end of the row when the lads are dropped. 446 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: What Happened To Sandy Beale is hosted by me Melissa Jolson. 447 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: It's written and produced by me and Katrina Norvell. The 448 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: podcast is edited by a Bousafar, sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. 449 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: Jason English is our executive producer. Research and production assistance 450 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: by Marissa Brown. To find out more about my investigation, 451 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at quasimato. That's qu a s 452 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: I am a d oh. Thanks so much for listening.