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Speaker 1: Back in twenty seventeen, I recorded in an episode with

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Speaker 1: Michelle Murphy and Michelle was wrongfully convicted of the murder

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Speaker 1: of her baby, Trevor, of fifteen week old boy. She

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Speaker 1: was egregiously framed and served twenty years to the day

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Speaker 1: in prison of a life sentence. Upon her release, a

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Speaker 1: judge said through tears that in his four decades on

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Speaker 1: the bench, it was the worst miscarriage of justice he'd

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Speaker 1: ever seen. She's been fully exonerated, and she is an

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Speaker 1: extraordinary person who is full of life, very brilliant, and

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Speaker 1: is working at the Bail Fund in Oklahoma helping two

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Speaker 1: free other women from sentences they don't deserve and getting

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Speaker 1: them back home with their.

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Speaker 2: Families where they belong.

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Speaker 1: Sad news is that in twenty eighteen March of twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: she lost a lawsuit that she filed against the city

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Speaker 1: of tall for violating her civil rights. There are ongoing

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Speaker 1: developments and hopefully this wrong will be eventually righted. But

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Speaker 1: it's shocking to say that now, almost five years since

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Speaker 1: her release, she has gotten nothing from the state of

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma or anyone else for her twenty years of wrongful incarceration.

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Speaker 1: Her daughter from whom she was taken at the age

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Speaker 1: of seventeen. When this tragedy happened, she was taken directly

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Speaker 1: to interrogation. She was interrogated for nine hours, without an attorney,

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Speaker 1: without a parent. It was an illegal interrogation, and from

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Speaker 1: that interrogation she was taken to jail and never saw

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Speaker 1: her daughter again. The good news is that in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: in May, she was reunited with her daughter, and I

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Speaker 1: was there. It was an unbelievably emotional scene. Her daughter,

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Speaker 1: not twenty five, has a daughter of her own, and

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Speaker 1: so there's still a lot of healing to be done.

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Speaker 1: But Michelle is one of the strongest and bravest people

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Speaker 1: I've ever known, and you have to hear her story

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Speaker 1: to believe it. Michelle Murphy Wrongful Conviction Shout out to Michelle.

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Speaker 3: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 4: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 4: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 4: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 4: I hadn't done anything wrong.

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Speaker 3: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 3: we go to a hearing, we go to court, the

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Speaker 3: truth will come out. The prosecution from day one knew

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Speaker 3: I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected from

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Speaker 3: the lower courts all the way up to the United

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Speaker 3: States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 5: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and in

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Speaker 5: that moment unchecked authority.

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Speaker 4: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see him

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Speaker 4: on TV, because it may just be a dirty DA

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Speaker 4: that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomp. I'm actually

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Speaker 1: almost at a loss for words already today because one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite humans is here in the studio with us.

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Speaker 1: Michelle Murphy, the only female ax honery in the history

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Speaker 1: of Oklahoma.

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Speaker 3: Twenty years in prison for a crime she didn't commit.

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Speaker 6: On September twelfth, nineteen ninety four, Murphy's fifteen week old son,

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Speaker 6: Travis was found debt his throat slit. One year later,

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Speaker 6: Murphy was found guilty of murder received a life sentence

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Speaker 6: without the possibility of parole. This morning at Tulsa County

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Speaker 6: judge dismissed Mischelle Murphy's conviction. Prosecutors asked for the conviction

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Speaker 6: to be vacated because of new evidence they just became

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Speaker 6: aware of. It involves DNA evidence. They say it wasn't

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Speaker 6: available twenty years ago. Murphy's attorneys, however, say the Ditrich

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Speaker 6: attorney's office always had the evidence and it was im

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Speaker 6: Haarriss himself who applied to jurors twenty years ago. The

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Speaker 6: blood the crime scene belonged to Murphy.

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Speaker 5: After two decades in prison, including four years of legal work, Murphy,

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Speaker 5: now thirty seven, gets a second.

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Speaker 7: Chance at life.

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Speaker 2: Michelle welcome, Thank you. Yeah, it's good to you. Hear.

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Speaker 1: And with Michelle is her attorney, Shannon McMurray, and is

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Speaker 1: working on her civil suits. So Shannon, welcome to ronful conviction.

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Speaker 7: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: So Michelle, your case is really it's just beyond I mean,

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Speaker 1: your case is so extreme that the judge in your

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Speaker 1: original hearing said that in his more than four decades

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Speaker 1: on the bench, it was the most terrible miscarriage of

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Speaker 1: justice he'd ever seen. But let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: You were born in Tulsa, Yes, that's great. And what

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Speaker 1: was your upbringing like? You had a difficult childhood.

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Speaker 2: Did you not?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 5: I did. I was brought up in poverty stricken projects,

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Speaker 5: and welfare. I was in and out of foster homes.

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Speaker 5: I went through pretty much every form of abuse you

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Speaker 5: can think of as.

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Speaker 1: A child, and then you ended up at the age

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Speaker 1: of seventeen with two kids, right, yeah, which may not

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Speaker 1: be as unusual in Oklahoma, but certainly in many parts

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Speaker 1: of America, people be like, wow, that's you know, that's

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Speaker 1: pretty crazy. And you had a difficult relationship with the

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Speaker 1: father of your children.

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Speaker 5: As well, right, It was a dysfunctional relationship, but I

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Speaker 5: had kicked him out, and I was raising my kids

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Speaker 5: on my own because that's all I wanted was kids

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Speaker 5: in my own to raise.

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Speaker 7: I've pretty much brought up my sisters and my brother,

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Speaker 7: so I.

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Speaker 8: Wanted to get out there and have my own.

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Speaker 7: So I started a little early.

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Speaker 1: You raise your sisters and your brothers as well, so

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Speaker 1: you were you had experience at this, right, right, Although

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Speaker 1: at seventeen, how much experience can you really have? You'd

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Speaker 1: been through some crazy stuff already, as you said, every

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Speaker 1: kind of abuse and everything else, So I guess you

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Speaker 1: were sort of prepared.

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Speaker 5: You know, I knew it all, but I was seventeen.

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Speaker 5: What seventeen year old doesn't think that they know everything?

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Speaker 5: And they're ready to take on the world. All I

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Speaker 5: ever wanted was my own kids, and I was ready

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Speaker 5: to make it happen, and I did so.

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Speaker 1: Now we fast forward to that faithful night we're talking

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Speaker 1: about September twelfth, nineteen ninety four, right when you went

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Speaker 1: to sleep, probably more or less like any other night,

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Speaker 1: you had your two and a half year old daughter

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Speaker 1: right right and your baby son, Travis. Can you just

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Speaker 1: walk us through what happened that night, because it's, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's really the beginning of what is going to be

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Speaker 1: an unbelievable saga.

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Speaker 5: Well, after I left visiting a friend of mine, I

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Speaker 5: went home. I fed Michelle, my daughter, and I fed

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Speaker 5: Travis and gave him his little bath and everything else,

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Speaker 5: prepared him for sleeping, went to sleep, and I couldn't

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Speaker 5: sleep for some reason, so I stayed up and I

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Speaker 5: was going through baseball cards that I was trying to

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Speaker 5: save for him for his future, because I just wanted

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Speaker 5: him to have something that could possibly be a collectible

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Speaker 5: one day or something, you know. And I was making

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Speaker 5: a list of them and stuff until I finally was

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Speaker 5: able to go to sleep. And I can't even remember

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Speaker 5: what time it was that I went to sleep, and

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Speaker 5: when I woke up, my my lights were on, my

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Speaker 5: head was hurting, and I noticed my son wasn't where

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Speaker 5: he was when I laid him down to sleep.

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Speaker 2: You were sleeping with the kids right at the time.

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Speaker 5: My ac from upstairs had fallen out the window, and

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Speaker 5: so at that time we were all just sleeping downstairs

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Speaker 5: where it would be cooler, and we were sleeping on

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Speaker 5: a couch, all three of us. I had a huge

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Speaker 5: L shaped couch and so we were all in different

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Speaker 5: areas on it asleep.

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Speaker 1: And so the first thing you would have noticed when

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Speaker 1: you woke up is that your son was missing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: because you're I mean, he would have been right in

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Speaker 1: your immediate vicinity. He would have been in your eyesighted

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Speaker 1: as soon as you woke up.

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Speaker 5: So he was gone, right, And my first instinct is

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Speaker 5: to look and make sure that they're there and they're

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Speaker 5: asleep and they're okay, because I woke up to try

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Speaker 5: to go use the restaurroom.

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Speaker 1: Right and there's nowhere he could have gone. It was

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Speaker 1: only fifteen weeks solds now that he walked somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: I just.

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Speaker 5: I started panicking because I was like, where's where's my baby?

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Speaker 5: You know, my front door was open and my closest

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Speaker 5: friends lived right behind me at that time, so I

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Speaker 5: went to go out the back door and that's when

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Speaker 5: I found Travis.

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Speaker 2: He was in the kitchen.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, in a pull of his own blood.

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Speaker 1: It's the ultimate nightmare of anybody who's ever had a child.

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Speaker 2: So what did you do?

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Speaker 5: I freaked out. I went to my friends to get help.

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Speaker 9: And it's the last time I got to see my daughter,

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Speaker 9: and it was the last time I felt complete half

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Speaker 9: of my kids. You know.

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Speaker 5: After I went to my friends and they seen what

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Speaker 5: had happened with Travis, they went and they called the police,

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Speaker 5: and then they came out and I was in a

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Speaker 5: police car. I remember sitting there and people just kept

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Speaker 5: coming up to the car asking me what was going on.

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Speaker 5: And eventually they took me to the police station where

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Speaker 5: an officer of the law, if you could call him that,

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Speaker 5: interrogated me. And it wasn't so much an interrogation, it

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Speaker 5: was more like a browbeating, like he told me I

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Speaker 5: had done this, and this is what I did and

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Speaker 5: how I did it, and why I did this and

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Speaker 5: just and all I could say was I didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: There's so many things wrong with this story, even just

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Speaker 1: this beginning part of the story, because it's illegal in

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma for a seventeen year old you're a minor to

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Speaker 1: be interrogated without an adult in the room, a guardian

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Speaker 1: or an attorney, right, But that didn't.

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Speaker 10: Stop them at that time in Oklahoma. It was not proper.

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Speaker 10: It's legal today, they've changed the law. But what they

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Speaker 10: did to Michelle is nothing less than despicable.

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Speaker 1: But why would they do this? And here you were

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Speaker 1: just an innocent child. I mean, you're still a child.

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Speaker 1: And they interrogated you for seven fucking hours, and that

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Speaker 1: is a long long time, particularly when you are in

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Speaker 1: such a fragile state, right and you're seventeen, you have

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Speaker 1: an eighth grade education, you're totally overmatch. You've apparently been

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Speaker 1: hitting the ad right because you wake up with this

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Speaker 1: horrible headache. And yet they really didn't manage to extract

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Speaker 1: the confession from you. Seven hours and they finally get

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Speaker 1: you to say they say, you said something that was

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Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, well, maybe I could have

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Speaker 1: accidentally dropped a knife for what.

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Speaker 5: He had guided me to say. The investigator was guiding

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Speaker 5: me and things that I needed to say this is

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Speaker 5: how I did it, And I was more like asking

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Speaker 5: him a question as to instead of making a statement,

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Speaker 5: I was asking him that's what he wanted to hear,

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Speaker 5: because because I wanted to see my daughter. I wanted

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Speaker 5: to make sure my daughter was okay. I wanted to

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Speaker 5: hold my daughter.

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Speaker 10: He made false promises. Just say it was an accident.

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Speaker 10: Just say this, and you'll get to go home, and

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Speaker 10: you'll get to see your daughter. We'll get you counseling,

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Speaker 10: we'll get you therapy. You just need to say it

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Speaker 10: this way. When he didn't like what Michelle said, he

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Speaker 10: would start the recording over again. Michael Lee William was

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Speaker 10: very likely the person who decapitated Travis and left him

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Speaker 10: dead in Michelle's kitchen. There was no knife, no weapon

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Speaker 10: ever found, absolutely no blood evidence on Michelle. They never luminalled.

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Speaker 10: There were five separate sets of fingerprints that they never tested.

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Speaker 10: They didn't test the screen door for fingerprints. They didn't

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Speaker 10: test a chair that was seemed like blocking the front

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Speaker 10: screen door and it had blood on it. There was

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Speaker 10: an open back window that they've later admitted William could

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Speaker 10: have crawled through. There's so many inconsistencies between his interviews

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Speaker 10: and his testimony at preliminary hearing, and then after preliminary hearing,

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Speaker 10: he was found hung quite suspiciously and dead. So the

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Speaker 10: only person who really knows the truth is dead. After

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Speaker 10: he testified and what the preliminary hearing, judge pulled the

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Speaker 10: prosecutor and the defense attorney in after the preliminary hearing

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Speaker 10: and said, you need to seriously consider him as the suspect.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was reading about this, Shannon, and I found

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Speaker 1: it absolutely extraordinary that the judge at your preliminary hearing

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Speaker 1: was Judge Messler, And in an interview he called this

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Speaker 1: case and I'm quoting, the biggest miscarriage of justice end

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Speaker 1: quote that he had ever been connected to, and he

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Speaker 1: was holding back tears when.

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Speaker 2: He said it.

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Speaker 1: What does that tell you about I mean, for a

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Speaker 1: judge who'd been on the bench for over four decades

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Speaker 1: to say something that holding back tears, this is where

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Speaker 1: it really gets me. And I've never heard this before.

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Speaker 1: At one point during this preliminary hearing, which is when

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Speaker 1: this should have stopped, he actually called the attorneys to

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Speaker 1: his chambers to ask if the quote unquote witness who

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Speaker 1: we now know was almost.

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Speaker 2: Certainly the perpetrator murderer.

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Speaker 1: William Michael Lee if he had an attorney, And when

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor asked why, Judge Messler responded, and I'm quoting,

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Speaker 1: because that's the murderer of this baby, and everybody in

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Speaker 1: the courtroom knows it except you apparently.

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Speaker 2: Wow. You know, like.

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Speaker 1: You would hope that at that point somebody would have said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're done, that's enough.

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Speaker 2: We could stop.

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Speaker 1: Now, we can shift our focus. You sit there and go, wait,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, stop like something, just stop, right, You

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Speaker 1: have that feeling like this has to This can't be right.

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Speaker 2: It can't be that the judge.

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Speaker 1: Said something so strong and so profound, and yet everybody

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Speaker 1: felt fine just going ahead with this. Let's not call

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Speaker 1: it a prosecution. Let's call it a persecution, right, because

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Speaker 1: and that's really what was happening. It wasn't an interrogation

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Speaker 1: that Michelle endured. It was like a witch hunt, basically.

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Speaker 1: And it's so nuts because this kid who was another neighbor, right,

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Speaker 1: and who hadn't made unwanted sexual advances towards.

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Speaker 2: You, right. And it gets worse.

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Speaker 1: And worse as this unravels because of the fact that

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Speaker 1: there was evidence that was not allowed in court. Because

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Speaker 1: the kid's self asphyxiated and hung himself between the time

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Speaker 1: of your arrest and the time of the trial.

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Speaker 2: It's all just totally bizarre.

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Speaker 1: But the testimony was not allowed that was going to

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Speaker 1: be presented that he had decapitated a cat, that he

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Speaker 1: had shown up at school the day of the murder,

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Speaker 1: joyful and talking about how he had, you know, exacted

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Speaker 1: some revenge on you and other details. Yeah, right, So,

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Speaker 1: I mean that would have been the end of the

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Speaker 1: trial right there. Right, it would have been like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, any jury, I don't care, any jury is

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Speaker 1: going to hear that stuff.

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Speaker 2: And there was more.

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Speaker 1: There was a psychologist who had said that he was

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Speaker 1: ten years old, he had examined him, and that he

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Speaker 1: had shown when he feels rejected that he had violent tendencies.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is textbook, right, That's exactly what happened.

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Speaker 1: He had this rejection, and obviously he was pretty twisted

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Speaker 1: considering the way he died, right. Self asphyxiation is a

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Speaker 1: bizarre thing at any age, but the fact that he

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Speaker 1: was doing that when he was fourteen or fifteen when

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Speaker 1: he died is really it takes it to a whole

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Speaker 1: other level. So there's just so many bad actors in

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Speaker 1: this particular play. So back to this crazy judicial nightmare

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Speaker 1: of yours.

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Speaker 2: Right, So.

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Speaker 1: They decide to proceed even though everybody knows that you're innocent,

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Speaker 1: and they just went ahead anyway, which is shocking. So

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Speaker 1: what happens next? Now you're in jail awaiting trial. Right,

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Speaker 1: they didn't let you see your baby. They lied to

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Speaker 1: you in the interrogation room. You're in jail.

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Speaker 5: I was put in a cell by myself because I

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Speaker 5: was seventeen, with a barrier front of my door until

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Speaker 5: I turned eighteen. Even though I was being charged as

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Speaker 5: an adult, I was still treated as a juvenile. And

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Speaker 5: I didn't get out. I didn't get out but for

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Speaker 5: an hour day after everybody else was locked down and

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Speaker 5: have access.

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Speaker 7: To the phone, so the shower, what have you. And

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Speaker 7: it was only for an hour at a time.

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Speaker 2: You're in solitary confinement.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that's correct, right.

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Speaker 1: No, nobody bothered to think that she needed a psychologist,

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Speaker 1: any sort of counseling after what you've been through.

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Speaker 2: I mean, okay, I can't I can't even process that.

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Speaker 1: And meanwhile, are you even aware of what's going on

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Speaker 1: with your daughter at this point?

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Speaker 2: Has anybody told you.

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Speaker 7: I couldn't get any answers from anybody.

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Speaker 2: Did you have parents that you could talk to or anybody?

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Speaker 5: Mother?

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Speaker 7: But she didn't know either.

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Speaker 5: Well, they just denied her access as well because of

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Speaker 5: things that had happened to me in her care as

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Speaker 5: a child.

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Speaker 7: They kept her out of the loop too.

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Speaker 2: My entire family was anyone visiting you.

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Speaker 5: I got a few visits from family, but they were

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Speaker 5: in the dark just as much as I was.

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Speaker 1: And we find out later that your daughter was adopted

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Speaker 1: by close friends of the prosecutor, right, correct, which again

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Speaker 1: just adds a layer to this that is off the

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Speaker 1: fucking wall. I mean, it's just like I mean, it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't make any logical sense. And then you go

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Speaker 1: to trial. You turned eighteen in prison, right, the worst

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Speaker 1: eighteenth parent?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Ever?

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Speaker 5: Spent some of the best birthdays or supposed to be

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Speaker 5: the best birthdays in jail or prison.

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Speaker 10: And back then, you know, I've been a lawyer now

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Speaker 10: twenty some years, but I was an intern for the

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Speaker 10: Public Defender's Office and would have to go to the

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Speaker 10: adult detention center, and these women and men were either

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Speaker 10: in cages or in a bunk or so to speak,

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Speaker 10: lying on top of each other, roaches, rats, my it

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00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 10: was despicable, and this smell was unfathomable. I mean I

344
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Speaker 10: would throw up in my mouth every time.

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Speaker 7: It was just awful.

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Speaker 10: But you had to go out there as a public defender,

347
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 10: intern or lawyer. We would go out there just to

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Speaker 10: check on their well being and we would report the

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Speaker 10: conditions and it never changed. I could not even imagine

350
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Speaker 10: having to endure that, even if I did do something wrong,

351
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Speaker 10: but knowing I didn't do anything and being in that

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Speaker 10: just it just.

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Speaker 2: This is the jail.

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Speaker 7: It's unspeakable. That's where Michelle was held right prior to

355
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Speaker 7: the trial. The adult.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was horrible, and that's something that is worth understanding.

357
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Speaker 1: Jails by and large, are worse than prisons for some

358
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Speaker 1: of the reasons that you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: There's no recreation.

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Speaker 1: Many people are held, as Michelle was, in their cell

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Speaker 1: for twenty three hours a day. The lights don't go off,

362
00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 1: they're never cleaned. They're literally breathing grounds for disease, violence, rape,

363
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 1: because there's so much pressure built up because there's nothing

364
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 1: to do except for sit there. You've got people in

365
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: there who are innocent, like Michelle. You've got people in

366
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: there who are accused of crimes but can't post bail,

367
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 1: but they may or may not be innocent. We have

368
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: no idea, and then we have them mixed in with

369
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Speaker 1: violent criminals. It sounds like a more benign word than prison,

370
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Speaker 1: and it's important for people to understand that it's the

371
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Speaker 1: farthest thing from it.

372
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Speaker 5: Well, and then also especially whenever the media crucifies you

373
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Speaker 5: and makes you out to be one of the most

374
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Speaker 5: horrific monsters there is and you're charged with any form

375
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Speaker 5: of a.

376
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Speaker 7: Child crime and they broadcast it.

377
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Speaker 5: These people, these women or men in jail, they see that,

378
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Speaker 5: they watch the news.

379
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Speaker 7: You get taunted.

380
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Speaker 5: You just get fucked with really bad in there, and

381
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Speaker 5: it's twenty four hours.

382
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Speaker 7: You get fucked with, excuse my language, messed with in there.

383
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Speaker 5: And especially for well, the crime that I was charged

384
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Speaker 5: with and the goryinous, the horror of it, and what

385
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 5: they would say on the news and stuff. People will

386
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 5: take that and then they twist it and make it

387
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Speaker 5: even worse, as if you could make it any worse.

388
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Speaker 7: But being in there and you're innocent of this as well,

389
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Speaker 7: and you don't know, like me, I.

390
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 5: Didn't know where my daughter was and just I'm going

391
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Speaker 5: through this, and then I'm having people yelling through the vents,

392
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Speaker 5: hollering at me all the time, calling me a baby killer.

393
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 5: I got threats all the time. They were going to

394
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 5: make sure my food had something in it. They were

395
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 5: gonna do the same thing to me that I had

396
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 5: supposedly done to my job. I mean, you learn to

397
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 5: just kind of try to block it out as much

398
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 5: as you can, but you can't block it all out.

399
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 7: And it's twenty four hours a day.

400
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: I can't imagine how. It's just bad and worse. And

401
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 2: it's a miracle that.

402
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,679
Speaker 1: You survived that ordeal, because you're right, it can't be

403
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: any worse than that. To be in there accused of

404
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: what you were accused of, having lost your child, being

405
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: deprived of the scene. I mean, it's like it's literally the

406
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: ultimate nightmare, and yet you live through it and here

407
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: you are today, which is that's a miracle. So then

408
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: there's the trial and you're finally going to trial.

409
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 2: Did you believe that.

410
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: Things were going to work out and that finally somebody

411
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: would tell the truth and you would be able to

412
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: go home.

413
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 5: I knew that I was innocent, and I believe that

414
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 5: once they heard all this bs that they had made

415
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 5: up about me, and everything else is somebody was going

416
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 5: to see what I knew and they would let me

417
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 5: go home. But they were so narrow minded and blinded

418
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 5: by what the prosecutor portrayed, and.

419
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 7: I got a life without pearls sins, and so the

420
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 7: lawyer was asleep.

421
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,959
Speaker 10: As a defense attorney, and I've done it my entire career,

422
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 10: I know that we as attorneys are the only thing

423
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 10: that can stop the mountain of the United States and

424
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 10: the government. We're the stop gap and we have to

425
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 10: If you can't get in there and fight like hell,

426
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 10: then get the hell out of the courtroom. I see

427
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 10: it day in and day out lawyers that aren't prepared.

428
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 10: But they weren't just not prepared. It's almost like they

429
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 10: just went with the prosecution and whatever their theory of

430
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 10: the case was, they did not control anything in that

431
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 10: courtroom or anything leading up into the courtroom, and they

432
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 10: didn't do what they're supposed to do. And so that

433
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 10: was a part of the problem as well.

434
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,239
Speaker 1: Is a problem that we see all too frequently is

435
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: that people are not adequately represented by their defenders. And

436
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: you're certainly a textbook case of that as well. I mean,

437
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: this was a case where even though there was prosecutorial misconduct,

438
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: gross prosecutor miscrossed, including lies about the blood evidence, which

439
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: had they told the truth, would have exonerated you instantly

440
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: because your blood type didn't match the blood that was

441
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: found with the crime scene. And of course it even

442
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: goes further. There was blood presumably from the perpetrator at

443
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Speaker 1: the crime scene.

444
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 7: And going out the front door, and going out.

445
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: The front door. I mean, this one comes with instructions.

446
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 5: I mean it was on the chair as well, that

447
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 5: was propped up against the outside of my front door

448
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 5: to where I couldn't go out the front door if

449
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 5: I had went out the front door, so I'd have

450
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 5: to have gone at the back.

451
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: On top of everything else, you have no blood on you, right,

452
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: And so any investigator right out of school would go.

453
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 2: Well, wait a minute, this doesn't make any sense. You

454
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 2: can't commit.

455
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: Violent, terrible stabbing with blood everywhere, but you don't get

456
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: any blood on you, right, And so immediately there should

457
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 1: have been like, she didn't do it. Let's take care

458
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: of her, right, She's been through the most traumatic experience

459
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: that anyone can go through. Let's get her some help.

460
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: Let's make sure her daughter's okay. That would be the

461
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: appropriate reaction, and let's go find who did this.

462
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 7: You would think that that would be the proper way.

463
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: To do well, that is the proper one.

464
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: Well, I think, but that's not what they did, right,

465
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, in a civilized society, there's no

466
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: question that that's what should have been done. They had

467
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: their sight set on you, and it's it's hard.

468
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 7: It was an easier target for him.

469
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, except for not really though when you think

470
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: about it, because they had all evidence that they needed to.

471
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean, they had blood evidence and everything. I mean,

472
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: they knew that.

473
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 11: I'm going to get too angry.

474
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: So back to where we left off. At trial, you

475
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: needed a dream team, you needed a superstar attorney, and

476
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: you got someone who was let's say, borderline incompetent and

477
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: that maybe being kind. At the same time, not only

478
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 1: was the prosecution on this crazy mission to convict you

479
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: at all costs, but they also broke so many different rules.

480
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 2: Right.

481
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: The misconduct in this case is extreme, including I think

482
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: it was Harris was the prosecutor right, he lied about

483
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: the evidence. Not only did they withhold the culpatory evidence,

484
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: which is a Brady violation. They lied about the actual evidence.

485
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: They at least suggested to the jury that the blood

486
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: that was found at the crime scene could have been

487
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: or was probably yours, which they knew was one hundred

488
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: percent on tropline. They knew it was not yours, but

489
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: they led the jury to believe that it was. And

490
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: that's hard when you're in the jury seat, right You're

491
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: one of these jurors, and you're sitting there and you

492
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: been hit with all this publicity around your case and

493
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: everything else, and you know you're feeling, I'm sure, very

494
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: stressed out because it was a baby killed.

495
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 5: They even showed the jurors and autopsy of my son. Yeah,

496
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 5: that's horrific too, so they I can only imagine what

497
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 5: it was like for them to sit there and see that.

498
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 7: I mean, I had to just listen to it. I

499
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 7: was forced to.

500
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 5: I didn't want to see it, you know, I already

501
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 5: had enough horrors, but I had to sit in there

502
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 5: and I could hear the video plan and all the

503
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 5: things that they were doing. So I can only imagine

504
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 5: that that made a big impact on the jurors too,

505
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 5: And they wanted somebody to pay for it, And I

506
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 5: get that I want somebody to pay for it too,

507
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 5: but not me.

508
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 7: I didn't do it.

509
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: So there had been this circus of a trial, and

510
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 1: ultimately the jury was out. You were probably, even as

511
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: a seventeen eighteen year old girl with an eighth grade education,

512
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: you were probably aware that your own attorney wasn't doing

513
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: such a great job, right, But did you think that

514
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: they were going to come back and actually find you guilty?

515
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 5: I never lost hope, and I was just I was

516
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 5: praying that they would see the truth and that they

517
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 5: would know I couldn't do something like that, but it

518
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 5: was wrong.

519
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: So that moment, Michelle, Now you've been through everything a

520
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: human being can endure from the time you were a child,

521
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: and what was that moment?

522
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 5: Like, I can't forget it. There's a lot of things

523
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 5: I wish I could forget. When the jurors come back

524
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 5: in and I was in there, I was just holding

525
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 5: onto my faith and that they were going to know

526
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 5: there is no way that I could do that.

527
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 8: There's too many holes in what they tried to portray,

528
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 8: and that they would see through that. And I kept

529
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 8: holding on to the fact that I knew I was

530
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 8: innocent and that I was hoping that they were. They

531
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 8: weren't too blind to see that I was innocent, because

532
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 8: it was clear I was wrong, because they found me

533
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 8: guilty and.

534
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 7: Gave me a life without pearl sentence.

535
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 5: I remember my grandfather and my uncle in the courtroom,

536
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 5: and I had never seen them cry, and they both

537
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 5: broke down and cried. I remember my sister break down

538
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 5: and she was screaming at the jurys, telling them that

539
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 5: how could they do it, that they were wrong. And

540
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 5: I remember seeing my mom over there.

541
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 7: And she was breaking down crying as well. Well everybody

542
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 7: that was there.

543
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 5: My family was were all broke down and cried because

544
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 5: they all believed I was going to come home. And

545
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 5: I didn't know what the sentence was that they had

546
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 5: given me until I was able to talk to my

547
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 5: mom later and I asked her, I said, what was

548
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 5: the sense they gave me? All I heard was guilty

549
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 5: in life. Everything else was just kind of like blacked out.

550
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 5: I just I couldn't believe it that they had found

551
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 5: me guilty, and just hearing them say that, it was

552
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 5: like I lost my heart, it was ripped out again

553
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 5: what was left of it anyhow, And then seeing my

554
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 5: family breakdown like that it was.

555
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 7: It was hard, and then they took me back to

556
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 7: the county jail and put me in my room.

557
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't believe even now that they can.

558
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: To you, it's something that all of us as Americans

559
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: and human beings should be ashamed of.

560
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:07,959
Speaker 2: And I am.

561
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: So you're sentenced to life in prison, and you had

562
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: a lot of life left to live when you're eighteen

563
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: years old and you end up going to prison. I

564
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: want to get to how you managed to persevere and

565
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: find the strength to fight for yourself when you could

566
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: have so easily given up. I mean, I think most

567
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: people in your situation would have given up.

568
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 5: There are times that I wanted to give up, but

569
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 5: I couldn't.

570
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 7: I just couldn't because.

571
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 5: I have a daughter and now I know I have

572
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 5: a granddaughter too, and tell with everybody else, I had

573
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 5: to prove to her that I didn't do this, and

574
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 5: in order for that, I had to get my innocence proven.

575
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 5: And that's what kept me going through the twenty years

576
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 5: and even now is what keeps me going is one day,

577
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 5: haven't the possibility of let her in heart know the facts,

578
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 5: not what she's been led to believe, and being.

579
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 7: A part of her life.

580
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: The fact that you still now two years after being

581
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: three years after being fully exonerated.

582
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 7: And found actual innocent, found.

583
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: Actual innocent, and the ruling was with prejudice, so that

584
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: means they can't retry you. The idea that you still

585
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: haven't been able to re establish a relationship with hers

586
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: is something that troubles me a lot.

587
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: But I'm hopeful.

588
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,959
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that ultimately you will and hopefully

589
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: there'll be a happy ending to this.

590
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 5: And I believe one day she will come around and

591
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 5: she'll let me be a.

592
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 7: Part of her life.

593
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: It is going to happen, because it has to. You know,

594
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: there's another couple of twists and turns in this, right

595
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: because you ended up serving twenty years. But halfway through

596
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: that there was light, there was a break in the case.

597
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

598
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 5: Before my mom passed away, my mother had written the

599
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 5: Innocence Project.

600
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 7: She wrote a lot of people because she.

601
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 5: Wanted to get me in my dream team, my own

602
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 5: dream team, so what she called it. They had taken

603
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 5: my case on it and.

604
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 7: They had requested all this exculpatory.

605
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 5: Evidence to be turned over to them to be were

606
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 5: in and tested, and come to find out, now not

607
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 5: all that evidence was provided to them. They supposedly couldn't

608
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 5: find some or it didn't exist anymore or whatever.

609
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: Right, the games continued.

610
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: There were three envelopes at one point that were sent

611
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: in the mail and two of them were empty, right,

612
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: which is really like, and let's just reflect on just

613
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: that alone.

614
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: It's so nuts, right, like, really, are you kidding me?

615
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. But it's not funny. It sounds it sounds

616
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: ridiculous now, but it's not funny. It's very it's a

617
00:33:58,800 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: very real.

618
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 5: They were still trying to cover their masses.

619
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the NS Project took your case, which is

620
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: the blessing of blessings when you're stuck in that nightmare, right,

621
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: and the Ennis Project takes your case. But in two thousand,

622
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: this is two thousand and five.

623
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 5: I believe it was before that. They think it was

624
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 5: two thousand and four. I'm not sure on the timeline.

625
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 5: But whenever they ran the test on what they were

626
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 5: provided with, there was nothing that they could do because

627
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 5: it was all just Travis's blood. There was none of

628
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 5: the perpetrators. It was just Travis's blood that was provided

629
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 5: to them. So they had said that there was nothing

630
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 5: that they could do. They did what they could do,

631
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 5: so it kind of lost hope for a moment in

632
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 5: a sense. But at the same time, I was like,

633
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 5: I'm not giving up. I just didn't know how to

634
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 5: go about doing it because I didn't have money.

635
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 7: I was in prison. I had already lost my parents, I.

636
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 5: Lost a lot of people, and finances don't exist really

637
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 5: in prison.

638
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 7: You can't make it living in there.

639
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 5: So I didn't know how I was going to do it,

640
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 5: but I knew it was going to happen one day.

641
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: And you didn't give up. And Nina's Project didn't give

642
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: up either.

643
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 5: Well, they weren't able to assist with what was provided

644
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 5: to him, and they had done what they did. So

645
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 5: eventually a friend of mine had found my attorneys that

646
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 5: helped prove my innocence, and my sister and her guy

647
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 5: at the time, he was a doctor. He paid for

648
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 5: my attorneys, and the Innocence Project got involved with them

649
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 5: on proof of my innocence because they were able to

650
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 5: locate the evidence that was held back from the Innocence

651
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 5: Project the first time to be ran and tested again.

652
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: And those lawyers the ones that came to your rescue

653
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: at this time, it's worth giving them a shout out here, right.

654
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 5: I am grateful for them bringing me home and doing

655
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 5: the work that they did to brieve my innocence.

656
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: And that was Richard and Charisse o' caroll, right correct.

657
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: So you finally got a team on your side that

658
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: was up to the task, right, right. And then the

659
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: Inns Project got reinvolved because the evidence was found, right,

660
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: which existed all along with this group of very sinister

661
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: people had successfully hidden for as long as they had.

662
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: It was finally found.

663
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 5: And I believe it took Charise and some interns going

664
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 5: in theirselves and looking through the evidence theirselves in order to.

665
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 7: Get it and have it tested.

666
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 5: But see, the thing is is that it had already

667
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 5: been tested before my trial.

668
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 7: Tim Meritis had already had it tested.

669
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: He knew right the Oklahoma State grew up investigations, had

670
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: tested the evidence and had provided it to the projector,

671
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: which was Harris. But he just chose to ignore it.

672
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: He chose to.

673
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: Hide it and ignore it and then lie about it

674
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: and do basically everything he had to do in order

675
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: to turn your life into more of a living hell

676
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: than it already was. Ultimately, you come back to court

677
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: with appropriate representation, strong representation, actually, let's call it what

678
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, and you finally get justice.

679
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: What was that like?

680
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 5: It was like a huge weight of the world just

681
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 5: lift it off of me. And it was a major relief.

682
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 5: But at the same time, it was like it had

683
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 5: a moment of sadness because my parents couldn't be there,

684
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 5: especially my mom.

685
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 7: My dad wasn't really a part of my life, but

686
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 7: my mom couldn't be there to experience it with.

687
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: Me or my daughter who I was there that day,

688
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 2: Michelle with you. Besides Richard and Cheris, I had.

689
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 5: Some family in the courtroom that day. I believe my

690
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 5: baby sister was there with her husband.

691
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 7: And the doctor was there, Doctor.

692
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 5: Fizzelle, who paid Charis and Ritual Carol to take my

693
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 5: case on.

694
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 2: Well that's I mean, that's pretty heroic of him.

695
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: So finally some good people have come to your aid rescue.

696
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: It's bittersweet because obviously your parents weren't there to see

697
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: their baby beat but it was.

698
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 5: Awesome to be able to finally the court system acknowledges

699
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 5: that I am innocent, and to all the people that

700
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,479
Speaker 5: had prosecuted me and even in prisoned, those that beat

701
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 5: me down and talked horribly about me, and made my

702
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 5: life hell in there to all those people that.

703
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 7: Had misjudged me. And it was just like I told

704
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 7: you I was innocent.

705
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: What did judge say?

706
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 7: Really, he looked.

707
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 5: Straight at me and he said, Michelle Lomurphy, you are

708
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 5: actually innocent. And he said that three times and said

709
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 5: that we were dismissed.

710
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: Did anybody apologize?

711
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, Well, not that it would have really

712
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: changed anything, but it might have been a nice gesture.

713
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 10: And for Christ's sakes, I would just add and not

714
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 10: only has nobody apologized to Michelle from law enforcement, that

715
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 10: it's their intent to attempt to try and retry her

716
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 10: in her civil suit for the murder of Travis in

717
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 10: order to convince the jury that Michelle should not receive

718
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 10: money damages for the twenty years she's spent in prison innocent.

719
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 10: So I think that that's important for everyone to know.

720
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 10: The nightmare persists. She can never be convicted or go

721
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 10: to prison or jail. But it is their attempt in

722
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 10: the civil trial, which is going to be in April,

723
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 10: to put her on trial for killing Travis and to

724
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 10: try to get this confession before the jury. And so no,

725
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 10: nobody's apologized to her.

726
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: Kind of the object.

727
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 5: They still want to try to prosecute me innocence. They

728
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 5: don't want to admit that they were wrong, and they

729
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 5: don't want to compensate. There's not enough money in the

730
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 5: world that could.

731
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 7: Ever replace what was taken from me.

732
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 5: I would rather go penniless and have my kids than

733
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 5: have all the money in the world.

734
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: And that's something I want to talk about a little

735
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: bit to Michelle, because it's important for people to understand

736
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: the struggle that happens after you get out. I think

737
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: people see on the news, the coverage on the courthouse steps.

738
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: There's cameras, and there's hugging, and there's crying, and there's cheering,

739
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: and there's everything. But then you walk out into a

740
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: world that doesn't really want you. You've got a resume

741
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: that's got a twenty year hold in it, and you

742
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: haven't had a chance to develop skills when everybody else

743
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: has been out building their career or their family or

744
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: their and you get nothing. Here we are three years later,

745
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: and now you have to still wait until April to

746
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: go and fight for compensation that should be provided to you,

747
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 1: in my opinion, immediately, I mean so that you can

748
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: start rebuilding your life.

749
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 5: I'm grateful to be free and living on this side

750
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 5: of the world, but it's so hard to survive sometimes

751
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 5: out here because we have to play catch up.

752
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 7: Me for instance, I have no computer skills. I'm learning

753
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 7: them now. I had never had a job.

754
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 5: I was seventeen years old. I had never drove a

755
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 5: car day in my life. I never had a house alown,

756
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 5: you know, I had never experienced so much that most

757
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 5: people have experienced in their life or the beginning of

758
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 5: their life, you know.

759
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 7: So it's a struggle.

760
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 5: And the panic attacks, the anxiety of trying to catch up,

761
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 5: which would.

762
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 7: Probably never catch up to the rest of the world.

763
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 7: But I'd like to know somethings, you know.

764
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the PTSD has got to be profound.

765
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: It's just like I said another sentence.

766
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 7: Almost right form of another prison in a sense.

767
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: But you know, you're even with physical problems related to

768
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: your time you spent in prison and everything else, and

769
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: you're still here, right, I'm.

770
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 7: Still a fighter and a survivor.

771
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've got your back, and you're taking classes

772
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: now with an organization called Goodwill, is that right?

773
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 11: Yeah?

774
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 7: Goodwill? It also works.

775
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 5: The thing is a lot of people out there don't.

776
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 7: Realize what all is available.

777
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 5: They know is the donation sites and the stores that

778
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 5: they have, but they don't realize that there's classes.

779
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 7: That are available to them. For me, I didn't have

780
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 7: any computer skills.

781
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 5: I didn't know how to do Microsoft Word, PowerPoint and

782
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 5: Excel and all this stuff. And I'm learning that extremely

783
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 5: quickly and I'm loving it. I know how to do

784
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 5: a power point, I know how to do a spreadsheet now.

785
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 5: I'm very quick learner. And they've taught me how to

786
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 5: do resume, which I don't have much of a resume,

787
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 5: but I know how to do one. I know how

788
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 5: to carry myself in an interview. I know more about

789
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 5: this process that it takes.

790
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 7: To get a job now. But as soon as I complete.

791
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 5: This class, I am going to start a plus certification

792
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 5: which does harder and the motherboards and stuff like that

793
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 5: and building computers. And I'm going to take forklifting classes

794
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 5: as well. And then in January they're supposed to be

795
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 5: starting in an OSHA program so it can be certified

796
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 5: as well.

797
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a lot. That's really great.

798
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: It's great and it's important because people ask me what

799
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: can I do to help? So programs like this Goodwill program.

800
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: Do you know that there's not enough of them? People

801
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: could start one. You could learn more about it, check

802
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: out the Goodwill program, tutor mentor you know, help provide

803
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: equipment or clothes. There's a million things you can do

804
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: and we're gonna help.

805
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 7: It just takes somebody to believe in us. Sometimes, Yeah, exactly.

806
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 7: I'm always hungry for knowledge. I want to learn everything.

807
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: It's amazing.

808
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: There's so many great stories of xuneries coming out and

809
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: succeeding and triumphing. If there's anything else you can think

810
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: of that you could recommend for people to do. Who

811
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: are going to hear this and they're going to say,

812
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: I want to do something to help, what would you

813
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: recommend people do.

814
00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 7: I would like to.

815
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 5: See more programs that are going to help, especially exoneries.

816
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 5: There are some programs that are available to people coming

817
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 5: out of prison that are being released from their time

818
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 5: re entry programs. Well, one of us, exoneries, we come out.

819
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 5: We don't meet their criteria because we're not being released.

820
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 5: We've been exonerated for a crime we did not commit,

821
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 5: and we can't get into those programs because their focus

822
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 5: is to help those coming out of prison from serving

823
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 5: a time and for crime that they did commit.

824
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have in this country. We have various re

825
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: entry programs and also, you know, parole probation officers, I

826
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: should say probation officers for people who are released after

827
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: serving the time of the crime that they were guilty of.

828
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: But when you're an exonnery, you come out to nothing, right,

829
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: it's actually paradoxical. You don't get any of those services

830
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: because you weren't guilty in.

831
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: The first place. It's ass backwards, actually, I mean, yeah, I.

832
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 5: Mean help them by all means, but help us as well.

833
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 5: Because now I had never even talked on it cell

834
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 5: phone or used a cell phone.

835
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 7: I had never even seen it except for on TV,

836
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 7: you know.

837
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 5: And as soon as I walk out the county jail,

838
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 5: doctor Vizille hands me my first phone, and I'm like,

839
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 5: how do I use this? You know? And my sister's

840
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 5: calling me on it. I don't even know how to

841
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 5: answer it. We don't know how to live in this

842
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 5: side of the world.

843
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 7: We've been trained.

844
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 5: To live by prison rules, prison structure, if you can

845
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 5: call it that. We just need more programs and more awareness.

846
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 5: I want to get stuff out there that's going to

847
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 5: help people coming out and provide them with resources.

848
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 10: Not just financial and educational, but emotional mental health counseling,

849
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 10: because re entry after certainly twenty years in prison proves

850
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 10: to be extremely overwhelming. I've represented clients who have spent

851
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 10: most of their life in prison and come out and

852
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 10: don't know how to run a microwave or a CD

853
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 10: player or a phone. Without that support family or community,

854
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 10: such as Michelle has had, they literally either violate parole

855
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 10: or reoffend in some way so they can go back

856
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 10: to what they know, which is prison where they feel safe,

857
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 10: which is tragic I've had I'm like, why did you

858
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 10: do that? Because I don't know how to live in

859
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 10: this world and I can't cope.

860
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: So, Michelle, we have a tradition on wrongful conviction, as

861
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 1: people who listen to the show already know, which is that.

862
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 1: I like to just turn the microphone over to you

863
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 1: for any closing thoughts at all. What's on your mind.

864
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 5: I'm determined I'm going to change some things. I want

865
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 5: to change a fewel all that, especially in Oklahoma, and

866
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 5: I want to start a program that's going to go

867
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 5: back into facilities and help prove the innocence of those

868
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 5: that need to be home, and I want to get

869
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 5: programs in the facilities that's going to teach individual skills

870
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 5: to survive out here. I want to provide resources for

871
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 5: them on what is available out here for them. I

872
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 5: want to go into schools and to speak out and

873
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 5: teach to let kids know, Hey, you don't have to

874
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 5: commit anything, you don't have to be doing anything.

875
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 7: You can still.

876
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 5: Get caught up and your life can be taken away

877
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 5: from you in the blink of an eye, especially the

878
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 5: way this is going out here in the world now.

879
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 7: And I just want to help.

880
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 2: Michelle, what can I say?

881
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: You are amazing and it's been really a profound experience

882
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: for me well having you in my life and having

883
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: you on wrongful conviction today.

884
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: So I want to thank our.

885
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: Two guests, our star Michelle Murphy and her wonderful attorney

886
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 1: Seana McMurray. So thank you both for being here, and

887
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Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the next.

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Speaker 2: Phase of your life.

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Speaker 7: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: It really helps.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and

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Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

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Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

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00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate

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Speaker 1: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,

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Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show

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Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated.

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Speaker 2: Composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

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Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one